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Author Topic: ROCOR Appoints Pastoral Vicar for its Western Rite  (Read 3175 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: February 20, 2011, 12:54:02 AM »

Since the arrival of Father Anthony (Bondi) and his 14 clergy in the Russian Church Abroad, some major progress is taking place in the area of Western Rite.

Metropolitan Hilarion has appointed Father Anthony as the Pastoral Vicar with responsibility for Western Rite in the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.  Please see the attachment ...
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« Reply #1 on: February 21, 2011, 06:21:04 AM »

Since the arrival of Father Anthony (Bondi) and his 14 clergy in the Russian Church Abroad, some major progress is taking place in the area of Western Rite.

Metropolitan Hilarion has appointed Father Anthony as the Pastoral Vicar with responsibility for Western Rite in the Russian Orthodox Church Abroad.  Please see the attachment ...
I wonder will the Fellowship spread throughout the very small but growing ROCOR WR presence outside of the US?  Logically it would be useful to see the symmetry that comes from having the majority of the Western-rite under the Fellowship duplicated on a wider scale.
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« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2011, 11:30:37 AM »

Quote
I wonder will the Fellowship spread throughout the very small but growing ROCOR WR presence outside of the US?  Logically it would be useful to see the symmetry that comes from having the majority of the Western-rite under the Fellowship duplicated on a wider scale.

It doesn't say anything about a Fellowship, does it? It refers to the Fraternity of St Gregory which, according to Fr Anthony's website, was formed to give his original people a way of remaining close to each other which means it is not something likely to be opened to others. We don't need wheels within wheels (while understanding the feelings of Fr Anthony's flock), it is enough to be Western Rite Orthodox under the omophor of Metropolitan Hilarion, where the bishop is the church is also, said St Ignatius.

In Christ,
Margaret
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« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2011, 03:25:36 PM »

Quote
I wonder will the Fellowship spread throughout the very small but growing ROCOR WR presence outside of the US?  Logically it would be useful to see the symmetry that comes from having the majority of the Western-rite under the Fellowship duplicated on a wider scale.

It doesn't say anything about a Fellowship, does it? It refers to the Fraternity of St Gregory which, according to Fr Anthony's website, was formed to give his original people a way of remaining close to each other which means it is not something likely to be opened to others. We don't need wheels within wheels (while understanding the feelings of Fr Anthony's flock), it is enough to be Western Rite Orthodox under the omophor of Metropolitan Hilarion, where the bishop is the church is also, said St Ignatius.

In Christ,
Margaret
The sentiment is the same, but yes, "Fellowship" should have read "Fraternity".  I suppose the Petrochian Paruchia has a similar function in the WR outside of the US and Canada as the Fraternity in supplying fellowship amongst WR clergy and people. I agree that it is a wonderful blessing for the WR to be under the omophor of the First Hierarch of ROCOR direct, however there are also so many wonderful local bishops like Archbishop Mark of Berlin and Great Britain, or Archbishop Kyrill of San Francisco who have such pastoral care for the Orthodox flock in their care, and to me it seems a pity that those in the WR have perhaps less opportunity to relate to these bishops direct, given that the WR remains apart from their local diocesan structures.
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« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2011, 04:18:18 PM »

...there are also so many wonderful local bishops like Archbishop Mark of Berlin and Great Britain ... who have such pastoral care for the Orthodox flock in their care...

Pastoral care? Like practically prohibiting WR in London?

But I agree that it's a shame that WRO is not part of normal diocesean structure in ROCOR. WRO is just as normal expression of Orthodoxy as Byzantine rite is so there's no need for special structures.
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« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2011, 06:00:40 PM »

...there are also so many wonderful local bishops like Archbishop Mark of Berlin and Great Britain ... who have such pastoral care for the Orthodox flock in their care...

Pastoral care? Like practically prohibiting WR in London?

But I agree that it's a shame that WRO is not part of normal diocesean structure in ROCOR. WRO is just as normal expression of Orthodoxy as Byzantine rite is so there's no need for special structures.
What does "practically prohibiting WR in London" mean?  Either there is a prohibition or it is licit.  Do you mean discouragement? Why would that be the case? In any case I thought it was extra-diocesan i.e. outside the territory and jurisdiction of the local Bishop. The UK ROCOR website notes:

Quote
Stavropegial Communities
The following communities, while on the geographical territory of the Diocese of Great Britain and Ireland, are not part of the diocese but are directly under the omophor of either His Holiness Patriarch Kirill of Moscow and All Russia or His Eminence Metropolitan Hilarion of New York and Eastern America.

The St Eanswythe Orthodox Mission

Locations:   Christchurch Cemetery Chapel, Jumpers Road, Christchurch, Dorset
                    St Joseph's Catholic Church, East Street, South Molton, Devon. EX36 3DB
Liturgical Language: English
Clergy:   Hieromonk Michael (Mansbridge-Wood)
Websites: St Eanswythe's Orthodox Mission
                   The St Nectan Orthodox Study Society
  http://www.rocor.org.uk/directory.html


 In relation to WRO being a normal expression of Orthodoxy barely 100 years ago it did not exist at all - had been dead for centuries, ( except to the saints of the west who remained as always Orthodox saints) but one could say that it has become expressed within Orthodoxy, created anew within the Orthodox Church - at least in those jurisdictions which permit it such as ROCOR  and Antioch in recent decades.  In my view the WR misses out on much association with bishops fullstop when their relationship is not through their local bishops.  The laity miss out on the chance to build relationships with their local bishop, priests miss out on the level of association and clergy association that diocesan clergy get.  The Orthodox tradition is after all for local bishops.  Perhaps the answer is to have local Western-rite bishops, but I guess for that to happen numbers will need to be much bigger.

Perhaps the forthcoming congress of WRO clergy of all WR authorized jurisdictions will make a difference.  Maybe the WR of all jurisdictions should all be together in one super-WR body? 

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« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2011, 06:16:42 PM »

What does "practically prohibiting WR in London" mean?  Either there is a prohibition or it is licit.  Do you mean discouragement? Why would that be the case?

He banned serving the WR Liturgy in the lower Church of the ROCOR London Cathedral while there is a service upstairs. It was the only one time WR community could gather.
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« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2011, 06:23:08 PM »

What does "practically prohibiting WR in London" mean?  Either there is a prohibition or it is licit.  Do you mean discouragement? Why would that be the case?

He banned serving the WR Liturgy in the lower Church of the ROCOR London Cathedral while there is a service upstairs. It was the only one time WR community could gather.
I assume that is because there should not be two Liturgies served at the same time in the same church, rather than it being about the western-rite? I would have thought that simply changing the hour of the WR mass would fix the problem, unless there were other reasons for the prohibition.
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« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2011, 06:50:09 PM »

So is the point of Western Rite? I'm just curious. If you have ROCOR parishes that do liturgy in English what's the need for further differentiation?
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« Reply #9 on: February 22, 2011, 07:09:20 PM »

I assume that is because there should not be two Liturgies served at the same time in the same church, rather than it being about the western-rite?

No. I've seen it dozens of times.
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« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2011, 07:09:43 PM »

What does "practically prohibiting WR in London" mean?  Either there is a prohibition or it is licit.  Do you mean discouragement? Why would that be the case?

He banned serving the WR Liturgy in the lower Church of the ROCOR London Cathedral while there is a service upstairs. It was the only one time WR community could gather.
I assume that is because there should not be two Liturgies served at the same time in the same church, rather than it being about the western-rite? I would have thought that simply changing the hour of the WR mass would fix the problem, unless there were other reasons for the prohibition.

A lot of people in and around London rely on public transport which is not always good on a Sunday as I usually discover when I visit my SF's church in central London and this combined with the eastern-rite liturgy starting at 10.00am makes changing the time of the western-rite liturgy next to impossible if the idea is to avoid overlap.

In Christ,
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« Reply #11 on: February 22, 2011, 07:11:23 PM »

So is the point of Western Rite? I'm just curious. If you have ROCOR parishes that do liturgy in English what's the need for further differentiation?

They use a different liturgy, Sarum instead of St John Chrysostom.

In Christ,
Margaret
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« Reply #12 on: February 22, 2011, 07:40:41 PM »

So is the point of Western Rite? I'm just curious. If you have ROCOR parishes that do liturgy in English what's the need for further differentiation?

There are many in Orthodoxy who agree with this premise - and there are plenty who disagree also.  Personally I feel that when 98% of Western Anglo priests and people are using the Byzantine rite used in 99.9% of world Orthodoxy, then yes that ought to be enough for all.  I also appreciate that many feel that the heritage of Western Orthodoxy before the Great Schism is very important, and that it ought to be revived as has happened in the 20th century. The good faith of those who advocate for the Western-rite is to be believed, as is the sincerity with which those who argue that Orthodoxy should have one Byzantine rite is argued.  A useful site to weight up arguments is:[url]http://westernritecritic.wordpress.com//url]  T
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« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2011, 08:19:09 PM »

So is the point of Western Rite? I'm just curious. If you have ROCOR parishes that do liturgy in English what's the need for further differentiation?

There are many in Orthodoxy who agree with this premise - and there are plenty who disagree also.  Personally I feel that when 98% of Western Anglo priests and people are using the Byzantine rite used in 99.9% of world Orthodoxy, then yes that ought to be enough for all.  I also appreciate that many feel that the heritage of Western Orthodoxy before the Great Schism is very important, and that it ought to be revived as has happened in the 20th century. The good faith of those who advocate for the Western-rite is to be believed, as is the sincerity with which those who argue that Orthodoxy should have one Byzantine rite is argued.  A useful site to weight up arguments is:[url]http://westernritecritic.wordpress.com//url]  T
I would have to say that I find myself much more on the side of everyone using the Byzantine rite, but I don't have an ancestral bias lending to WR so the argument simply doesn't resonate with me. Plus how does this differ with ethnophyletism? Man being new to Orthodoxy it seems we too have the plague of Protestantism. It's either "I'm breaking off cause you're not traditional enough/not like my homeland enough" or "I'm willing to accept everyone else in the freemason style." I'd like to see more of a middle ground with ecumenism, but alas middle to me is the far side to another.  Smiley
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« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2011, 08:37:55 PM »

Quote
I wonder will the Fellowship spread throughout the very small but growing ROCOR WR presence outside of the US?  Logically it would be useful to see the symmetry that comes from having the majority of the Western-rite under the Fellowship duplicated on a wider scale.

It doesn't say anything about a Fellowship, does it? It refers to the Fraternity of St Gregory which, according to Fr Anthony's website, was formed to give his original people a way of remaining close to each other which means it is not something likely to be opened to others. We don't need wheels within wheels (while understanding the feelings of Fr Anthony's flock), it is enough to be Western Rite Orthodox under the omophor of Metropolitan Hilarion, where the bishop is the church is also, said St Ignatius.

In Christ,
Margaret

One priest has been already added to the Fraternity of St Gregory. His name escapes me right now.  A new priest Maximos Brian Herman is to be ordained a priest on Palm Sunday and he will open a mission parish in San Mateos California under the aegis of the Fraternity of St Gregory.  The Fraternity is for both seculars and monastics.

I do not know how the Columbans of Fr Michael will mesh with this.   To date I believe the American Columbans comprise just one priest, Fr Joshua Anna in New Mexico (and one priest in the UK Hieromonk Michael (Wood.))  I assume the Columbans of Fr Michael are monastic only?
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« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2011, 08:37:55 PM »

So is the point of Western Rite? I'm just curious. If you have ROCOR parishes that do liturgy in English what's the need for further differentiation?

There are many in Orthodoxy who agree with this premise - and there are plenty who disagree also.  Personally I feel that when 98% of Western Anglo priests and people are using the Byzantine rite used in 99.9% of world Orthodoxy, then yes that ought to be enough for all.  I also appreciate that many feel that the heritage of Western Orthodoxy before the Great Schism is very important, and that it ought to be revived as has happened in the 20th century. The good faith of those who advocate for the Western-rite is to be believed, as is the sincerity with which those who argue that Orthodoxy should have one Byzantine rite is argued.  A useful site to weight up arguments is:  

[An interesting read from Western Rite critic:  [url=http://westernritecritic.wordpress.com/]http://westernritecritic.wordpress.com//url]  T


 http://westernritecritic.wordpress.com/]http://westernritecritic.wordpress.com//url]  T

I have seen evidence of Anglo-phyletism advocated by some - not all who favour the Western-rite.  Lets face it, the West blew it when it comes to Orthodoxy. Theologically and culturally and politically the West needs to learn from the East - from Orthodoxy as lived in countries like Rumania, Russia and Greece. What we don't need is the baggage of Anglicanism - and I speak from my own experience as an Anglican and as an Orthodox Christian wanting to see Orthodoxy in the Church of England before the ordination of women - but it was a mirage and an error on my judgment to try and seek it.  

The Western rite critic site has an interesting article on the risk of Episcopali-izing WR Orthodoxy
The Marcionites would be happy with what the Western Rite enthusiasts have been trying to achieve. A church within a church, a confession within a confession. This pattern – this template – is the gnostic/masonic/revolutionary template from of old. It creates “unity in diversity” by creating within a religious body another religious body that cannot exist outside it but is in contradiction to that in which it inheres. This has been done to every major religious confession. It’s essentially the translation of universalism and the filioque into an ecclesiological expression.

Observe how it was done with the Episcopal Church. The 1979 prayer book gave us not just two different rites, as the 1928 continued to be used simultaneously in most churches (though, as in this case, proponents kept claiming it was all about rites and rites alone); what it did was elucidate, exacerbate, and continue producing two religious cultures, one within the other, but each in contradiction to the other (despite the harmony the enthusiasts would claim). Even the most optimistic glossers of those events now can scarcely deny that the chickens of contradiction have come home to roost. In the early morning hours, the high-church protestant wing, adhering to the ’28 books, would show up to say the spoken prayers. In the later hours, the quasi-catholic wing, to whom the ’79 book and its culture were now effectively glued, showed up with its charismatic converts to sing the new writ (the former would show up to vigils and such, too). And so the holders of the old way were forced into an ever more Protestant mold, while the holders of the catholic way were melded to the new movement. Effectively, this coopted, compromised, and weakened both.

And so tensions that were already there were exacerbated in the extreme, leading to the present troubles. The 28ers began to lose their catholicity for the sake of their Anglicanism, as they left in droves for Continuing groups. The 79ers, offering the heroic myth of a return to ancient practices, found their “catholicity” in indeed embracing all, but therefore putting them at odds with their own moral standards, and so further dividing them. You can’t embrace everything without becoming nothing. When you’re self-definition is open-ended, people will throw a lot of garbage into it. Defections from each ‘canonical’ group to the other became rampant, satisfying neither the leaving nor the receiving parties. The “Continuing” solution, of freezing the religious assets, as it were, simply created little museums dedicated to a myth of purity and the golden age. Now two great myths collided and fed on one another.

In effect, the complete fragmentation of Anglicanism we are currently witnessing is leading not to the end of Anglicanism, but the transformation of it into a faceless goo that is the raw material to be reformatted into something altogether new – something that prepares it for a more global apostasy. And none of its splinters, or splinters within splinters, whether they be in communion or contradistinction, admit fully what has happened.

It’s not a long leap to looking at the same template in relation to the Western Rite and so-called Byzantine Rite. The ’79 and ’28 prayer books overlay quite neatly. It’s “just about rites”, right? We even have the attendant claims of “returns to more ancient practices” and “embracing the culture that surrounds us” – same things the Episcopalians were saying and many now rue – when they’re dealing in reality at all. But one doesn’t even have to squint to see all the rhetoric about a shift in religious culture being trumpeted by Western Rite enthusiasts in one place while simultaneously denied with shrugs and protests in another. This template is that template. The necessary stages in the preparation of any amalgum include a distillation, a simplification, and extraction of the right isotope to define the necessary parts going into the new whole.

One needn’t even mention that this same alchemical process went to work on the great Protestant confessions, and didn’t have far to run to distill them into elements more akin to an ultra-fragmented fundamentalism in some cases, something like episcopalianism in others, and an ultra-refined generic mega-church (a kind of religious androgyny) in the rest.

If you want to see the future of “Orthodoxy” in the vision of those making the most enthusiastic noise about “Western Rites”, you have only to look around you at the crumbling pillars of Rome and her children. The very religiosity into which they wish to initiate us is being boiled down, and our participation will be courted as the ‘recovery’ of something lost (merely an earlier stage in the process) and the ‘purification’ of what was fundamentally fine (a different stew than our fathers ever knew). We are being asked to embrace a new Orthodoxy, a traditional Orthodoxy, and a continuing Orthodoxy, all within the same confession. We are being asked to become Episcopalians in culture and Orthodox in name.

So-called “Western Orthodoxy” is merely a symbol of this process and a symptom of the new order being formed, a different ecclesiology, a pseudo-ekklesia. In and of itself, it certainly has significant problems, many of which have been rather universally recognized [survey]. In terms of what its progress is telling us about the contemporary Orthodox movement (and the very fact that it is movement, and can no longer be considered static or a state – and so now has much in common with the Episcopalian experience) — in those terms, it points to much larger problems that are as yet, just as with the Episcopalians, not widely or fully acknowledged. This despite the countless warnings of monastic communities, ascetic saints, Orthodox prophets, and holy martyrs. Lord have mercy.

You’d think the Episcopalians would like what these folk are up to, but anyone that has suffered what many of them have, through this process, could only look at it with sadness, and perhaps a will to help us fight it. The ones chasing it like a grail are those ‘true believers’ who still think the key problems are gays and women priests, and miss the point entirely. For them, an Episcopalianized Orthodoxy, especially a Western Orthodoxy, is a mirage, and they’re greedily gulping down what many of us recognize as sand. The sad thing is that we are feeding it to them, in the name of disseminating the Faith. This can only happen when we have begun to lose our Faith the same way they did: Quite literally by losing The Faith.

The Marcionites, Masons, and Revolutionaries should be happy, but no one else will be. Not when, instead of coming home to roost, our dove departs for the last time.


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« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2011, 08:51:37 PM »

Quote
I wonder will the Fellowship spread throughout the very small but growing ROCOR WR presence outside of the US?  Logically it would be useful to see the symmetry that comes from having the majority of the Western-rite under the Fellowship duplicated on a wider scale.

It doesn't say anything about a Fellowship, does it? It refers to the Fraternity of St Gregory which, according to Fr Anthony's website, was formed to give his original people a way of remaining close to each other which means it is not something likely to be opened to others. We don't need wheels within wheels (while understanding the feelings of Fr Anthony's flock), it is enough to be Western Rite Orthodox under the omophor of Metropolitan Hilarion, where the bishop is the church is also, said St Ignatius.

In Christ,
Margaret

One priest has been already added to the Fraternity of St Gregory. His name escapes me right now.  A new priest Maximos Brian Herman is to be ordained a priest on Palm Sunday and he will open a mission parish in San Mateos California under the aegis of the Fraternity of St Gregory.  The Fraternity is for both seculars and monastics.

I do not know how the Columbans of Fr Michael will mesh with this.   To date I believe the American Columbans comprise just one priest, Fr Joshua Anna in New Mexico (and one priest in the UK Hieromonk Michael (Wood.))  I assume the Columbans of Fr Michael are monastic only?
And one assumes for men and women Columban monastics with the tonsuring of Sister Margaret this Sunday, an event for which we are all I hope praying for Margaret and Fr. Abbott Michael, the Columban superior. 

You may have forgotten Father Ambrose that the St. Petroc Paruchia has parochial or at least non-monastic clergy - Fr. Barry of St. Dyfan's Hobart, Fr. Raphael of the St. Petroc Paruchia's  Singapore Mission, and the Fr. Jarel the Philippino Missions priest .  I am not sure whether Fr. Gregory in the Netherlands is a secular priest or Columban-Petroc monastic. Arguably though the Fraternity of St. Gregory might well be the future parish non-monastic clergy fellowship for ROCOR's WR.
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« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2011, 09:04:58 PM »

So is the point of Western Rite? I'm just curious. If you have ROCOR parishes that do liturgy in English what's the need for further differentiation?

There are many in Orthodoxy who agree with this premise - and there are plenty who disagree also.  Personally I feel that when 98% of Western Anglo priests and people are using the Byzantine rite used in 99.9% of world Orthodoxy, then yes that ought to be enough for all.  I also appreciate that many feel that the heritage of Western Orthodoxy before the Great Schism is very important, and that it ought to be revived as has happened in the 20th century. The good faith of those who advocate for the Western-rite is to be believed, as is the sincerity with which those who argue that Orthodoxy should have one Byzantine rite is argued.  A useful site to weight up arguments is:  

[An interesting read from Western Rite critic:  [url=http://westernritecritic.wordpress.com/]http://westernritecritic.wordpress.com//url]  T


 http://westernritecritic.wordpress.com/]http://westernritecritic.wordpress.com//url]  T

I have seen evidence of Anglo-phyletism advocated by some - not all who favour the Western-rite.  Lets face it, the West blew it when it comes to Orthodoxy. Theologically and culturally and politically the West needs to learn from the East - from Orthodoxy as lived in countries like Rumania, Russia and Greece. What we don't need is the baggage of Anglicanism - and I speak from my own experience as an Anglican and as an Orthodox Christian wanting to see Orthodoxy in the Church of England before the ordination of women - but it was a mirage and an error on my judgment to try and seek it.  

The Western rite critic site has an interesting article on the risk of Episcopali-izing WR Orthodoxy
The Marcionites would be happy with what the Western Rite enthusiasts have been trying to achieve. A church within a church, a confession within a confession. This pattern – this template – is the gnostic/masonic/revolutionary template from of old. It creates “unity in diversity” by creating within a religious body another religious body that cannot exist outside it but is in contradiction to that in which it inheres. This has been done to every major religious confession. It’s essentially the translation of universalism and the filioque into an ecclesiological expression.

Observe how it was done with the Episcopal Church. The 1979 prayer book gave us not just two different rites, as the 1928 continued to be used simultaneously in most churches (though, as in this case, proponents kept claiming it was all about rites and rites alone); what it did was elucidate, exacerbate, and continue producing two religious cultures, one within the other, but each in contradiction to the other (despite the harmony the enthusiasts would claim). Even the most optimistic glossers of those events now can scarcely deny that the chickens of contradiction have come home to roost. In the early morning hours, the high-church protestant wing, adhering to the ’28 books, would show up to say the spoken prayers. In the later hours, the quasi-catholic wing, to whom the ’79 book and its culture were now effectively glued, showed up with its charismatic converts to sing the new writ (the former would show up to vigils and such, too). And so the holders of the old way were forced into an ever more Protestant mold, while the holders of the catholic way were melded to the new movement. Effectively, this coopted, compromised, and weakened both.

And so tensions that were already there were exacerbated in the extreme, leading to the present troubles. The 28ers began to lose their catholicity for the sake of their Anglicanism, as they left in droves for Continuing groups. The 79ers, offering the heroic myth of a return to ancient practices, found their “catholicity” in indeed embracing all, but therefore putting them at odds with their own moral standards, and so further dividing them. You can’t embrace everything without becoming nothing. When you’re self-definition is open-ended, people will throw a lot of garbage into it. Defections from each ‘canonical’ group to the other became rampant, satisfying neither the leaving nor the receiving parties. The “Continuing” solution, of freezing the religious assets, as it were, simply created little museums dedicated to a myth of purity and the golden age. Now two great myths collided and fed on one another.

In effect, the complete fragmentation of Anglicanism we are currently witnessing is leading not to the end of Anglicanism, but the transformation of it into a faceless goo that is the raw material to be reformatted into something altogether new – something that prepares it for a more global apostasy. And none of its splinters, or splinters within splinters, whether they be in communion or contradistinction, admit fully what has happened.

It’s not a long leap to looking at the same template in relation to the Western Rite and so-called Byzantine Rite. The ’79 and ’28 prayer books overlay quite neatly. It’s “just about rites”, right? We even have the attendant claims of “returns to more ancient practices” and “embracing the culture that surrounds us” – same things the Episcopalians were saying and many now rue – when they’re dealing in reality at all. But one doesn’t even have to squint to see all the rhetoric about a shift in religious culture being trumpeted by Western Rite enthusiasts in one place while simultaneously denied with shrugs and protests in another. This template is that template. The necessary stages in the preparation of any amalgum include a distillation, a simplification, and extraction of the right isotope to define the necessary parts going into the new whole.

One needn’t even mention that this same alchemical process went to work on the great Protestant confessions, and didn’t have far to run to distill them into elements more akin to an ultra-fragmented fundamentalism in some cases, something like episcopalianism in others, and an ultra-refined generic mega-church (a kind of religious androgyny) in the rest.

If you want to see the future of “Orthodoxy” in the vision of those making the most enthusiastic noise about “Western Rites”, you have only to look around you at the crumbling pillars of Rome and her children. The very religiosity into which they wish to initiate us is being boiled down, and our participation will be courted as the ‘recovery’ of something lost (merely an earlier stage in the process) and the ‘purification’ of what was fundamentally fine (a different stew than our fathers ever knew). We are being asked to embrace a new Orthodoxy, a traditional Orthodoxy, and a continuing Orthodoxy, all within the same confession. We are being asked to become Episcopalians in culture and Orthodox in name.

So-called “Western Orthodoxy” is merely a symbol of this process and a symptom of the new order being formed, a different ecclesiology, a pseudo-ekklesia. In and of itself, it certainly has significant problems, many of which have been rather universally recognized [survey]. In terms of what its progress is telling us about the contemporary Orthodox movement (and the very fact that it is movement, and can no longer be considered static or a state – and so now has much in common with the Episcopalian experience) — in those terms, it points to much larger problems that are as yet, just as with the Episcopalians, not widely or fully acknowledged. This despite the countless warnings of monastic communities, ascetic saints, Orthodox prophets, and holy martyrs. Lord have mercy.

You’d think the Episcopalians would like what these folk are up to, but anyone that has suffered what many of them have, through this process, could only look at it with sadness, and perhaps a will to help us fight it. The ones chasing it like a grail are those ‘true believers’ who still think the key problems are gays and women priests, and miss the point entirely. For them, an Episcopalianized Orthodoxy, especially a Western Orthodoxy, is a mirage, and they’re greedily gulping down what many of us recognize as sand. The sad thing is that we are feeding it to them, in the name of disseminating the Faith. This can only happen when we have begun to lose our Faith the same way they did: Quite literally by losing The Faith.

The Marcionites, Masons, and Revolutionaries should be happy, but no one else will be. Not when, instead of coming home to roost, our dove departs for the last time.




I just hate to see anyone flex or bend just to add more in number or get some wanted political attention. Orthodoxy at its core has seemed to say "quality, not quantity", and it would sadden me to see that change. I'm all for unity, but not at any cost. And I would hate to see the "you cater to me" attitude, so prevalent in Protestant circles, make a jump to Orthodoxy. That is the last posture we need to take or learn when it comes to Christ Jesus. I see Orthodoxy like a cup of sand. The more you change the cup, the more sand you'll gradually loose in the transfer. Some will fall and not make it into the new cup and some will stay stuck in the old. We must be careful to only change the cup when absolutely necessary. Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2011, 09:13:10 PM »


You may have forgotten Father Ambrose that the St. Petroc Paruchia has parochial or at least non-monastic clergy - Fr. Barry of St. Dyfan's Hobart,

Hadn't forgotten but I am unsure if they -being secular clergy- would have been required to vow obedience to Fr Michael under the Columban Rule which is a 9th century Rule for eremites.

Quote
Fr. Raphael of the St. Petroc Paruchia's  Singapore Mission, and the Fr. Jarel the Philippino Missions priest .

The status of these priests is unknown.  Have the bishops received them?  In their Orders?  By heirothesia?  By heirotonia?

Quote
I am not sure whether Fr. Gregory in the Netherlands is a secular priest or Columban-Petroc monastic.

That is not likely since Fr Gregory Wassen is currently a priest of the Orthodox Church in America.  I believe he lives in Ireland with his wife and small daughter.
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« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2011, 09:14:51 PM »

I agree that we need to be very wary of saying - "let us culturally adjust Orthodoxy to suit your needs".  Whether it is keeping the fasting as the Church has always known it rather than modernising it or saying we need a dispensation in the modern era, or the Calendar question, or saying that the liturgy is too repetitive and we should shorten it, the Church in her wisdom has been loathe to embrace these - with perhaps the exception of the vexed new calendar issue.  

Those who love the Western rite and somehow think that it will be the Orthodoxy of the future in the west miss the point that thousands of converts have voted with their feet and gone to the Eastern-rite, because it has the authenticity of unbroken life in the Church.  Taking the Anglican prayer book, fixing the epiclesis and getting rid of stations of the cross and putting on an apparelled amice as opposed to a Latin style amice just doesn't cut it for the majority of us.
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« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2011, 09:18:46 PM »


You may have forgotten Father Ambrose that the St. Petroc Paruchia has parochial or at least non-monastic clergy - Fr. Barry of St. Dyfan's Hobart,

Hadn't forgotten but I am unsure if they -being secular clergy- would have been required to vow obedience to Fr Michael under the Columban Rule which is a 9th century Rule for eremites.

Quote
Fr. Raphael of the St. Petroc Paruchia's  Singapore Mission, and the Fr. Jarel the Philippino Missions priest .

The status of these priests is unknown.  Have the bishops received them?  In their Orders?  By heirothesia?  By heirotonia?

Quote
I am not sure whether Fr. Gregory in the Netherlands is a secular priest or Columban-Petroc monastic.

That is not likely since Fr Gregory Wassen is currently a priest of the Orthodox Church in America.  I believe he lives in Ireland with his wife and small daughter.

  I would like to see more information on the reception of these priests and people in the Philippines ( between 240 and 300 souls according to Paruchia websites) and get some more facts on the Singapore mission in the Armenian Apostolic Church.  Is the WR Sunday mass after or before the Coptic or Syro-Jacobite liturgy?  Wikipedia notes:

Quote
he last Armenian parish priest left in the late 1930s, and with the dwindling Armenian population in Singapore, a successor was never appointed. Armenian and Eastern Orthodox services were held occasionally, particularly on Christmas and Easter, for a number of years. The only group of Orthodox to use the church on a regular basis are the Jacobite Syrian Church of India and Coptic Orthodox community of Saint Mark. The Jacobite Syrain Church holds services in the evenings on First Sunday and in the mornings on other Sundays. The Coptic Orthodox church holds Vespers, Matins and Divine Liturgy on the first weekend of every month.
In 2006, the church was used as an exhibition site for the Singapore Biennale. "Everything Is Contestable" by Indian artist Ashok Sukumaran was a site-specific intervention that introduced two switches which would be able to control the lights of the church, one at the gates of the church (working only intermittently) and one across the street[/i]
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« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2011, 09:19:13 PM »

I agree that we need to be very wary of saying - "let us culturally adjust Orthodoxy to suit your needs".  Whether it is keeping the fasting as the Church has always known it rather than modernising it or saying we need a dispensation in the modern era, or the Calendar question, or saying that the liturgy is too repetitive and we should shorten it, the Church in her wisdom has been loathe to embrace these - with perhaps the exception of the vexed new calendar issue.  

Those who love the Western rite and somehow think that it will be the Orthodoxy of the future in the west miss the point that thousands of converts have voted with their feet and gone to the Eastern-rite, because it has the authenticity of unbroken life in the Church.  Taking the Anglican prayer book, fixing the epiclesis and getting rid of stations of the cross and putting on an apparelled amice as opposed to a Latin style amice just doesn't cut it for the majority of us.

Agreed. Its strange to see one group basically say "yes we would like to reconcile with you, however, meet us halfway." Though I know I'm not as versed on the issue as you are, that is just the general sense I get.
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« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2011, 01:37:30 AM »

*sigh* So much misinformation out there...
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« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2011, 02:06:23 AM »

I agree that we need to be very wary of saying - "let us culturally adjust Orthodoxy to suit your needs".  Whether it is keeping the fasting as the Church has always known it rather than modernising it or saying we need a dispensation in the modern era, or the Calendar question, or saying that the liturgy is too repetitive and we should shorten it, the Church in her wisdom has been loathe to embrace these - with perhaps the exception of the vexed new calendar issue.
Uh, the Traditional explanation of the DL of St. John is that he abbreviated St. Basil, and the traditional explaniatino of St. Basil is that he abbreviated St. James. Despite that, the DL is longer than they had it, e.g. it began at what is now the Little Entrance.

Fasting has changed quite a bit in the last two thousand years. "As the Church has always known it" is a meaningless sentence, as it is contrary to fact.

Those who love the Western rite and somehow think that it will be the Orthodoxy of the future in the west miss the point that thousands of converts have voted with their feet and gone to the Eastern-rite,

Alas! Such a statement belies the fact that thousands of cradles have voted with their feet and gone to the Western rite.  Unfortunately, at present only a small percentage of those can and do end up in a WRO parish.  Most get aborbed into the Vatican's Latin rite, the Episcopalians, etc. with all their heresies.

And it's more than a litttle bit of disingenuity to act as if most converts ever had a choice between Eastern and Western rites.  Not to mention the rite of Constantinople being imposed on Alexandria and Antioch. They didn't vote with their feet: we were trampled on.

because it has the authenticity of unbroken life in the Church.
Because if is overwhelmingly what is available.

So, has the Erastian Holy Governing Synod eradicated the patriarchate of Moscow?  Did the Church survive the Western Captiivity?

Taking the Anglican prayer book, fixing the epiclesis and getting rid of stations of the cross and putting on an apparelled amice as opposed to a Latin style amice just doesn't cut it for the majority of us.
Btw, do you know what chinoiserie is?
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« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2011, 02:07:05 AM »

*sigh* So much misinformation out there...
Indeed!
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« Reply #25 on: February 23, 2011, 02:28:46 AM »

http://westernritecritic.wordpress.com/ is a cesspool of a website. If you really want a balanced and accurate take on the Western Rite as it exists within canonical Orthodoxy, you'd find a treasure in http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/. It doesn't paint a perfectly rosy picture of the canonical Western Rite, but it does wonderfully diffuse the ridiculous claims and lines of reasoning by the Western Rite's detractors, with kind and thoughtful language to boot. Basically, you don't feel like a dirtball after reading it, but coming away having learned something valuable even if you don't agree with it.

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« Reply #26 on: February 23, 2011, 02:53:05 AM »

http://westernritecritic.wordpress.com/ is a cesspool of a website. If you really want a balanced and accurate take on the Western Rite as it exists within canonical Orthodoxy, you'd find a treasure in http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/. It doesn't paint a perfectly rosy picture of the canonical Western Rite, but it does wonderfully diffuse the ridiculous claims and lines of reasoning by the Western Rite's detractors, with kind and thoughtful language to boot. Basically, you don't feel like a dirtball after reading it, but coming away having learned something valuable even if you don't agree with it.



What you say about http://westernritecritic.wordpress.com applies just as much to http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com   It contains articles and Comments with abysmal attacks on such people as Fr Aidan Keller and his work with the Sarum Rite (and this at a time when Fr Aidan's Sarum publications enjoyed episcopal approval for sale in the church bookshops of the Russian Church Abroad. Pshaw! 
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« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2011, 03:19:18 AM »

One priest has been already added to the Fraternity of St Gregory....

Ah, I got the impression from Fr Anthony's website that the Fraternity was something specifically to help his original people remain close.

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« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2011, 03:26:31 AM »

One priest has been already added to the Fraternity of St Gregory....

Ah, I got the impression from Fr Anthony's website that the Fraternity was something specifically to help his original people remain close.

I believe that was the primary intention but now the Metropolitan is allowing new priests to come into the Fraternity.

How is this handled in the UK?   Are all WR  priests obliged to be members of the Saint Petroc Paruchia and under obedience to Hieromonk Michael?
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« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2011, 03:31:30 AM »

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I wonder will the Fellowship spread throughout the very small but growing ROCOR WR presence outside of the US?  Logically it would be useful to see the symmetry that comes from having the majority of the Western-rite under the Fellowship duplicated on a wider scale.

It doesn't say anything about a Fellowship, does it? It refers to the Fraternity of St Gregory which, according to Fr Anthony's website, was formed to give his original people a way of remaining close to each other which means it is not something likely to be opened to others. We don't need wheels within wheels (while understanding the feelings of Fr Anthony's flock), it is enough to be Western Rite Orthodox under the omophor of Metropolitan Hilarion, where the bishop is the church is also, said St Ignatius.

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One priest has been already added to the Fraternity of St Gregory. His name escapes me right now.  A new priest Maximos Brian Herman is to be ordained a priest on Palm Sunday and he will open a mission parish in San Mateos California under the aegis of the Fraternity of St Gregory.  The Fraternity is for both seculars and monastics.

I do not know how the Columbans of Fr Michael will mesh with this.   To date I believe the American Columbans comprise just one priest, Fr Joshua Anna in New Mexico (and one priest in the UK Hieromonk Michael (Wood.))  I assume the Columbans of Fr Michael are monastic only?

Oops!  Boo boo!   It is not Maximos Brian Herman but Peter Noel.

The other priest already received for the Western Rite in the Russian Church Abroad is Fr George Grube from the Milan Synod.  He has been assigned to the Fraternity of Saint Gregory supervised by Fr Anthony (Bondi.)  
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« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2011, 04:21:37 AM »

http://westernritecritic.wordpress.com/ is a cesspool of a website. If you really want a balanced and accurate take on the Western Rite as it exists within canonical Orthodoxy, you'd find a treasure in http://westernorthodox.blogspot.com/. It doesn't paint a perfectly rosy picture of the canonical Western Rite, but it does wonderfully diffuse the ridiculous claims and lines of reasoning by the Western Rite's detractors, with kind and thoughtful language to boot. Basically, you don't feel like a dirtball after reading it, but coming away having learned something valuable even if you don't agree with it.


 I did not say the Western Rite Critic was Gospel but it is worthy of reading and debating. I appreciate the effort with which many Western-rite people live their faith and seek to share it.  I understand how hard it is to start from scratch with little money and support.  Nonetheless it is necessary to face the challenging issue of the interface between Orthodoxy proper - Eastern Orthodoxy and the revived Western-rite.  Really the label "Western" is not correct because there are Western-rite missions in the East, just as the Eastern Orthodox Church has had a long presence in the West since the Great Schism.  

It is not anti-Western-rite to discuss whether the so-called Rite of St. Tikhon was ever authorized for use in the lifetime of St. Tikhon.  There is plenty of  "ye olde Celtic (no we're not Latin-rite) we're Celtic Orthodox and by the way we've adapted the 1549 Anglican mass written hundreds of years after the end of Western Orthodoxy as a lived diocesan faith and fixed it up to make it Sarum" talk out there.
 
There is anti-Russian and anti-"Middle-Eastern" material out there  and some of it is in pro WR sites and it is as worthy of debating as is Eastern Orthodox criticism of the WR brethren.

And let's be clear - there is plenty of internal Western-rite phyletism against others in the Western-rite, such as the appalling attacks on Fr. Aidan Keller, a scholar of some reputation in understanding the historic Sarum rite of the Latin rite and against the Fraternity of St. Gregory and Father Bondi in ROCOR as well as a decided lack of charity towards the AWRV. If we look at ROCOR we seek the WR is much larger in the US than anywhere else, and jurisdictionally largely confined to the AWRV and ROCOR, with little synergy between the US and British-Australian WR organisations - the Fraternity of St. Gregory and the St. Petroc Monastery and it's Columban rule dependencies.

It also seems as if the Western-rite has written off almost 1100 years of Latin-rite history in Continental Europe and indeed the Latin rite in England.  Why aren't there WR churches dedicated to St. Augustine of Canterbury or seminaries dedicated to western Orthodox teaching and formation? 
 
Finally those Orthodox who have gone West to the Roman Church or the Episcopal or Anglican Church have in most cases done so in good faith and I pray that they will come back. I'd rather they were western Orthodox than heterodox.  What led to the loss of them?  Maybe poor catechesis, and modernism - the New Calendar, organs in Greek churches, priests dressed like Anglicans outside of liturgical worship and slack teachings about fasting, fidelity and teaching Orthodoxy not as a denomination but a complete way of life in Christ are responsible.  Pray God that they will come back.  I doubt that the Anglican BCP mass with an Orthodox epiclesis is going to cut it in getting them back though, just as it has failed to bring in swathes of Western converts in much of the western world.

I still see the Western-rite as a "watch this space" story.  If it is to last it needs to have all it's parishes and missions under their own bishops or be under diocesan bishops. If it is to last it will take more than talk of "ye olde Celtic" to bring Western people to Western-rite Orthodoxy.  It will need the formation of seminary trained - and I mean Orthodox seminary trained priests.  It will need monastic houses with monks and nuns in obedience under abbotts or priors who stay and pray and work like St. Benedict wanted.  It is wonderful that so many WR monastics have answered the call of mission but arguably it is not monastic work - for their work should be to sustain the Church in the divine office. 

So while I am critical, I am not inimical to the sincere.  For the ROCOR Columban nun to be, Mary Smythe making her profession as a Western-rite Columban nun on Sunday and her Superior, Abbott Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) of the ROCOR WR I pray that every blessing be on them both this Sunday.  I hope her Columban rule habit will be truly Western - full length, long veil and a white wimple and not an Eastern habit.  Western monastics whether Orthodox or Latin have a long and treasured history, and I hope we all get to see photos and videos of a Western rite mass and profession on Sunday.

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« Reply #31 on: February 23, 2011, 01:27:40 PM »

Nonetheless it is necessary to face the challenging issue of the interface between Orthodoxy proper - Eastern Orthodoxy and the revived Western-rite.

Two things.  First, Orthodoxy "proper" is not Eastern Orthodoxy. Eastern Orthodoxy is the name given to that family of Churches who continued to preserve the Apostolic Faith as the Undivided Church of Christ, as expressed culturally and spiritually in an Eastern/Byzantine manner. True Orthodoxy proper is what we see when all of the Apostolic Churches were in full communion with each other. One priest described it with this analogy:  The fullness of the Faith, true Apostolic Catholicity is like electricity. Coming from a single source (the original Church founded at Pentecost), this electricity spread and was harnessed to form a myriad of beautifully colored lights, shaped and decorated by the peculiar genius of each People it connected with, shining the Light in unique, but equally beautiful ways.

 

Eventually, for various reasons, that electrical current in the West was misdirected, incorporating things that didn't reflect the beauty and purity of the Apostolic faith, resulting in expressions that obscured or defaced the beauty and truth inherent in what had been received from previous generations.



As a result, it was only those lights (in the East) that had not misused the Light (by channeling it into objects it shouldn't have been channeled into, or keeping the Light from shining where it should) that could rightly be identified as the guardians and inheritors of the True Light. These lights lacked nothing, and expressed the fullness of the Light in their own brilliant colors and shapes.

So, without making light of the heresies of the West (pun intended), and to touch on the second point I wanted to make: those lights of the West did not, as you're fond of saying, "die out" because of their misuse and mishandling of the Light. They did not stop shining altogether, despite the tacked on plastic bottle here, the darkened (or removed altogether) glass there. Their original glory was still there to be found, it just had to be cleaned or provided-for in one way or another.

This is where, in my humble opinion, the wisdom of the Antiochian Church really shines (pun intended). They did not insist that the inherited lights of the West could not express their full glory simply because of the objects that were tacked on or the beautiful objects that were removed. And additionally, they did not insist that those designs that were added on, even if they originated outside of the boundaries of the Undivided Church, were somehow incapable of expressing the Light in a fully true and beautiful way. They looked upon their lights and said, "We see in these lights of yours the Light we've always seen in our own. We will aid you in restoring what needs to be restored, adding what needs to be added, and blessing what needs to be blessed so that your lights might once again illuminate the fullness of the Light."

This is a far better approach than "reviving the DNA" (as you say) of liturgies that really have been cut off from the living memory of a People. That's the thing about Rites; they are organically connected to the People that make them and keep them alive and develop them. There is no "revival" in the Antiochian Church; there is the assuming and blessing of that which has been organically received from the authentically "Orthodox" heritage of the People.



Moving on to your other statements...

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Really the label "Western" is not correct because there are Western-rite missions in the East, just as the Eastern Orthodox Church has had a long presence in the West since the Great Schism.

I do not think this is what is meant by "Western Orthodoxy" anyway.

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It is not anti-Western-rite to discuss whether the so-called Rite of St. Tikhon was ever authorized for use in the lifetime of St. Tikhon.

First of all, it's not "so-called" that is what it's called. And second of all, who is claiming or has claimed that it was authorized in the lifetime of St. Tikhon? I hear this thrown around a lot, and yet I've never seen it in print or heard it from anyone before. Methinks this might be one of the many rumors churched out be detractors. If someone has a link or anything documenting this, I'd like to see it, just out of curiosity. But this is not the understanding of those of us that use the Rite, as far as I know.

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There is plenty of  "ye olde Celtic (no we're not Latin-rite) we're Celtic Orthodox and by the way we've adapted the 1549 Anglican mass written hundreds of years after the end of Western Orthodoxy as a lived diocesan faith and fixed it up to make it Sarum" talk out there.

As a former Anglican, surely you're aware of the history and formation of the Book of Common Prayer, no? It wasn't "written" by anyone so much as it was compiled and edited from the inherited, authentically Orthodox heritage of the British Isles by way of the Sarum Use (which was in itself another compilation/editing project done not long after the Schism, usually dated between 1070-1085). Yes, there are some portions of the original BCP that were written or incorporated from non-Orthodox sources, and these things have to be dealt with (which has been done, quite wonderfully, in both the English Liturgy of ROCOR and the Liturgy of St. Tikhon in the AWRV, in accordance with the rulings of the Holy Russian Synod). But the BCP was not made out of whole cloth, brand new. And, as far as the Rite of St. Tikhon is concerned, the further developments of the received British liturgical heritage (by way of Sarum, BCP, etc.) made by the Caroline Divines, Non-Jurors, Scots, Anglo-Catholics and Americans brought it within such close proximity to its former glory that, as you like to point out, the minimal acts of adding a strengthened Epiclesis and removal of the Filioque, along with some Roman and Byzantine supplementation, were really all that needed to be done to make this liturgy a shining Light.

It is, as one person has described it:
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Not the work of one man or of one age. It was not produced hastily, but by a gradual development attained its present form. It is ultimately traceable to perhaps a greater variety of sources than any known liturgy. The Churches of Eastern and Western Christendom, early, medieaval, and modern times have all contributed towards determining its structure or supplying its contents. Yet is is not disfigured, by the signs of patchwork, but possesses the unity and beauty of a living thing. It is an outcome of the patient and reverent study of Christian antiquity; but it is conceived in no mere antiquarian spirit, and is no product of a dilettante affectation of the antique. Like everything that lives, it came into being from a living impulse; but also, like everything that lives, it was sensitive to its actual environment and exhibited the living power of adapting itself to that environment without permanent detriment to its life. It is framed upon primitive models, and breathes the spirit of primitive devotion, while experience continually demonstrates its suitability to the needs of the living Church." - Bishop John Dowden, speaking of the Scottish Liturgy from which the 1928 American BCP (on which the Rite of St. Tikhon is based) was derived.

And isn't this really what it must come down to? Rather than trying to set the clock back 1,000 years shouldn't we acknowledge the history of a People and assume and bless that cultural, spiritual and liturgical heritage stretching back to the founding of the British Church which has been kept alive by the People? Isn't this what is so beautifully illustrated in the parable of the Prodigal Son? Did the father, upon the return of his son, demand that he become who he used to be before he left, forgetting about his time away from his true home and how that may have shaped him and made him the person he was? Does God ask that of us when we come back to Him?

We cannot speak and think of the Western Rite as isolated from the culture and People that produced it. It is one, continuous story. It was people of the Anglican Church that first approached St. Tikhon about returning home to Orthodoxy and it was an Anglican Church that converted in full to the Orthodox Faith that first celebrated the Rite of St. Tikhon in 1977. And, God willing, many more Anglican churches will follow suit. It is important for these people to recognize where they are in their story. And for someone like me, who was not of an Anglican background (or any traditional liturgical background for that matter), the Rite of St. Tikhon, like no other rite celebrated in Orthodoxy today, speaks to me of the true redemptive power of the Orthodox Church. When I pray this liturgy every week, knowing its long and varied history, I am reminded of the vast mercy of Christ in ways that would never be possible in worshipping in the Byzantine Rite.

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It also seems as if the Western-rite has written off almost 1100 years of Latin-rite history in Continental Europe and indeed the Latin rite in England.  Why aren't there WR churches dedicated to St. Augustine of Canterbury or seminaries dedicated to western Orthodox teaching and formation?

Because the Western Rite is new? How quickly do you expect these things to happen?
 
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Finally those Orthodox who have gone West to the Roman Church or the Episcopal or Anglican Church have in most cases done so in good faith and I pray that they will come back. I'd rather they were western Orthodox than heterodox.  What led to the loss of them?  Maybe poor catechesis, and modernism - the New Calendar, organs in Greek churches, priests dressed like Anglicans outside of liturgical worship and slack teachings about fasting, fidelity and teaching Orthodoxy not as a denomination but a complete way of life in Christ are responsible.  Pray God that they will come back.

Who are these people you speak of? Were they Orthodox people who left for the Roman or Anglican Churches?

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I doubt that the Anglican BCP mass with an Orthodox epiclesis is going to cut it in getting them back though, just as it has failed to bring in swathes of Western converts in much of the western world.

Your ignorance is showing quite strongly in this statement.

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I still see the Western-rite as a "watch this space" story.

Perhaps this is the problem?

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If it is to last it needs to have all it's parishes and missions under their own bishops or be under diocesan bishops. If it is to last it will take more than talk of "ye olde Celtic" to bring Western people to Western-rite Orthodoxy.  It will need the formation of seminary trained - and I mean Orthodox seminary trained priests.  It will need monastic houses with monks and nuns in obedience under abbotts or priors who stay and pray and work like St. Benedict wanted.  It is wonderful that so many WR monastics have answered the call of mission but arguably it is not monastic work - for their work should be to sustain the Church in the divine office.

Well, perhaps you should trying praying for us instead of spreading false information? Or perhaps you should try to become one of these Western Rite bishops since you seem to have it all figured out...

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So while I am critical, I am not inimical to the sincere.  For the ROCOR Columban nun to be, Mary Smythe making her profession as a Western-rite Columban nun on Sunday and her Superior, Abbott Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) of the ROCOR WR I pray that every blessing be on them both this Sunday.  I hope her Columban rule habit will be truly Western - full length, long veil and a white wimple and not an Eastern habit.  Western monastics whether Orthodox or Latin have a long and treasured history, and I hope we all get to see photos and videos of a Western rite mass and profession on Sunday.

I join you in this prayer.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 01:37:03 PM by Sleeper » Logged
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« Reply #32 on: February 23, 2011, 04:19:42 PM »

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And isn't this really what it must come down to? Rather than trying to set the clock back 1,000 years shouldn't we acknowledge the history of a People and assume and bless that cultural, spiritual and liturgical heritage stretching back to the founding of the British Church which has been kept alive by the People? Isn't this what is so beautifully illustrated in the parable of the Prodigal Son? Did the father, upon the return of his son, demand that he become who he used to be before he left, forgetting about his time away from his true home and how that may have shaped him and made him the person he was? Does God ask that of us when we come back to Him?

We cannot speak and think of the Western Rite as isolated from the culture and People that produced it. It is one, continuous story. It was people of the Anglican Church that first approached St. Tikhon about returning home to Orthodoxy and it was an Anglican Church that converted in full to the Orthodox Faith that first celebrated the Rite of St. Tikhon in 1977. And, God willing, many more Anglican churches will follow suit. It is important for these people to recognize where they are in their story. And for someone like me, who was not of an Anglican background (or any traditional liturgical background for that matter), the Rite of St. Tikhon, like no other rite celebrated in Orthodoxy today, speaks to me of the true redemptive power of the Orthodox Church. When I pray this liturgy every week, knowing its long and varied history, I am reminded of the vast mercy of Christ in ways that would never be possible in worshipping in the Byzantine Rite.

I really appreciate what you have written here, because much of it is common sense.  The majority of the push for Western reunion with Orthodoxy has come from the Church of England - from Anglicans, especially from the Fellowship of St. Alban, and from a number of Anglo-Catholic prelates, including also a couple of Archbishops of Canterbury.  I have a Lancelot Andrewes edition of the BCP - an Orthodox revision of the BCP with the mass rite corrected, the baptism rite with chrismation in it, but nonetheless preserving most of the features of the BCP that I grew up with, and I treasure it.   http://www.andrewespress.com/

I think the AWRV position is much more resonant with what you have written than those who try and take English Christianity back to before the Roman missionaries reached Britain - the Celtic enthusiasts.  Of course that is not to deny the Celtic saints or rich monastic spirit, which almost certainly was infused with Egyptian desert spirituality. I think that for those Anglicans coming to Western-rite Orthodoxy, that to reject in a Western liturgical context Latin style amices (the plain linen ones) and insist on Sarum inspired apparelled amices, or to reject lace cottas or lace trimmed albs because they are Roman or Tridentine is to take things which do have cultural and liturgical resonance with many Anglicans and which should be legitimate in Western-rite liturgical life. 

Most Anglo-Catholics also use the term "mass" and I cannot understand why some Western-rite Orthodox use the term "Divine Liturgy" - even though it is correct because it is not culturally and liturgically what was used in the West.
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« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2011, 04:29:28 PM »

That's a great Prayer Book! It's the one I use as well, and I must say, the St. Dunstan's Psalter from Lancelot Andrewes is a wonderful companion volume, in a similar soft binding.
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« Reply #34 on: February 23, 2011, 04:51:41 PM »

Theologically and culturally and politically the West needs to learn from the East.

That's a bit overstated, don't you think? I'll grant you the first item, but I like my culture and politics just the way they are, thank you.
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« Reply #35 on: February 23, 2011, 04:53:42 PM »

I agree that we need to be very wary of saying - "let us culturally adjust Orthodoxy to suit your needs".  Whether it is keeping the fasting as the Church has always known it rather than modernising it or saying we need a dispensation in the modern era, or the Calendar question, or saying that the liturgy is too repetitive and we should shorten it, the Church in her wisdom has been loathe to embrace these - with perhaps the exception of the vexed new calendar issue.
Uh, the Traditional explanation of the DL of St. John is that he abbreviated St. Basil, and the traditional explaniatino of St. Basil is that he abbreviated St. James. Despite that, the DL is longer than they had it, e.g. it began at what is now the Little Entrance.

Fasting has changed quite a bit in the last two thousand years. "As the Church has always known it" is a meaningless sentence, as it is contrary to fact.

Those who love the Western rite and somehow think that it will be the Orthodoxy of the future in the west miss the point that thousands of converts have voted with their feet and gone to the Eastern-rite,

Alas! Such a statement belies the fact that thousands of cradles have voted with their feet and gone to the Western rite.  Unfortunately, at present only a small percentage of those can and do end up in a WRO parish.  Most get aborbed into the Vatican's Latin rite, the Episcopalians, etc. with all their heresies.

And it's more than a litttle bit of disingenuity to act as if most converts ever had a choice between Eastern and Western rites.  Not to mention the rite of Constantinople being imposed on Alexandria and Antioch. They didn't vote with their feet: we were trampled on.

because it has the authenticity of unbroken life in the Church.
Because if is overwhelmingly what is available.

So, has the Erastian Holy Governing Synod eradicated the patriarchate of Moscow?  Did the Church survive the Western Captiivity?

Taking the Anglican prayer book, fixing the epiclesis and getting rid of stations of the cross and putting on an apparelled amice as opposed to a Latin style amice just doesn't cut it for the majority of us.
Btw, do you know what chinoiserie is?

Not a day goes by that I don't thank God that Isa is on watch. I'm not kidding.
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« Reply #36 on: February 23, 2011, 04:54:44 PM »

That's a great Prayer Book! It's the one I use as well, and I must say, the St. Dunstan's Psalter from Lancelot Andrewes is a wonderful companion volume, in a similar soft binding.

I don't like the binding on the prayer book. It is the reason I decided not to buy the psalter.
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« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2011, 04:54:55 PM »

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Finally those Orthodox who have gone West to the Roman Church or the Episcopal or Anglican Church have in most cases done so in good faith and I pray that they will come back. I'd rather they were western Orthodox than heterodox.  What led to the loss of them?  Maybe poor catechesis, and modernism - the New Calendar, organs in Greek churches, priests dressed like Anglicans outside of liturgical worship and slack teachings about fasting, fidelity and teaching Orthodoxy not as a denomination but a complete way of life in Christ are responsible.

That doesn't make sense, why leave your ancestral church with the new calendar, organs, priests looking like Anglicans, etc, to go to, well, the Anglicans? In my small experience they leave more traditionally minded churches because they want these things or, far more often, because they marry an Anglican or an RC who can't or won't accept Orthodoxy.

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... I hope we all get to see photos and videos of a Western rite mass and profession on Sunday.

I truly don't think it's appropriate to video even the tonsuring of a novice.

Margaret
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« Reply #38 on: February 23, 2011, 05:11:55 PM »

That's a great Prayer Book! It's the one I use as well, and I must say, the St. Dunstan's Psalter from Lancelot Andrewes is a wonderful companion volume, in a similar soft binding.

I don't like the binding on the prayer book. It is the reason I decided not to buy the psalter.

Haha, each his own!
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