|
ozgeorge
|
 |
« Reply #90 on: February 18, 2011, 10:57:57 AM » |
|
But this is true. Logically, the First Cause cannot be within the system of causation or be required to be under its same rules. Firstly that is incorrect when the cause is the base substance of the entire system.. But the in the case of God, the cause is not the base substance of the entire system, so what are you talking about? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
|
|
|
CRCulver
Elder
 Offline
Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Church of Finland and Romanian Orthodox Church
Posts: 1,159
St Stephen of Perm, missionary to speakers of Komi
|
|
« Reply #91 on: February 18, 2011, 11:08:56 AM » |
|
I have.. learn how to use English. The definitions of words are not going to bend to your ideology lol
For someone who claims to be clued up on philosophy, TheJackel has never read Saussure (the linguistic sign is arbitrary). |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Sleeper
|
|
« Reply #92 on: February 18, 2011, 11:14:39 AM » |
|
Jackel, in all your posts I still have no clue what you're talking about. Why is it so hard to understand that a non-material entity does not require the rules of material entities to justify its existence? The only thing you do as ramble about "nothing" followed by childish lol's.
I get that you take materialism for granted but you have in no way shown that to be the most reasonable default position, and yet you refuse to work under any other frame of reference. It's tiresome.
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
No longer posting.
|
|
|
|
bogdan
|
|
« Reply #93 on: February 18, 2011, 11:15:09 PM » |
|
The more he throws around "logical fallacy", the more I think he Wiki'd the term last week, got the gist of it, and is going wild with it.
Or: You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
|
|
|
|
« Last Edit: February 18, 2011, 11:15:41 PM by bogdan »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Achronos
What's so good about Cincinnati? You like it? You think Cincinnati is cool? I've never heard anyone say, 'I'm going to Cincinnati on vacation.'
Site Supporter
Warned
Hoplitarches
Offline
Faith: Building Steam with a Grain of Salt
Jurisdiction: Just as little is seen in pure light as in pure darkness.
Posts: 9,342
And we gave him the Rolling Stone cover?!
|
|
« Reply #94 on: February 18, 2011, 11:46:11 PM » |
|
Jackel, in all your posts I still have no clue what you're talking about. Why is it so hard to understand that a non-material entity does not require the rules of material entities to justify its existence? The only thing you do as ramble about "nothing" followed by childish lol's.
I get that you take materialism for granted but you have in no way shown that to be the most reasonable default position, and yet you refuse to work under any other frame of reference. It's tiresome.
Like I said to synthesize his "argumentation" thus far on this board is as follows: "LOL! Incorrect! LOL! Incorrect! A bunch of psuedo-intellectual babble that tries to be so convoluted in order to stump the opposition and freely throwing out links with no quotations from any of these sources." There was a post here made by Dart against TtC, but I think it's fitting for this discussion: "It is like he is building this huge Rube Goldberg machine of reason and logic to try and explain God's love, God's creation, and God's energies warming his heart like the sun shining on a beach. As we lay on the beach enjoying the rays of God's love, he is running around trying to build a wall of sand to keep the ocean tide away. We just can't help to laugh as he tries to use his little shovel so desperately God's creation is so wonderful that he makes many things for us to laugh, enjoy, and marvel at. It really is not that hard to let God love you. The hard part is loving back and realizing how little we have to offer in return. Keep digging! You'll find God no matter where you look. He is everywhere." |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
“Without music, life would be a mistake.”
“The last capitalist we hang shall be the one who sold us the rope.”
"Face the facts of being what you are, for that is what changes what you are."
"We see at once that the words absolute, divine, eternal, and so on do not express what is implied in them.
|
|
|
TheJackel
Member
Offline
Faith: Materialist
Posts: 240
|
|
« Reply #95 on: February 19, 2011, 06:34:22 AM » |
|
Jackel, in all your posts I still have no clue what you're talking about. If you had a basic education in English you would know.   Insinuating that one has not received a basic education in English is by definition an ad hominem in that it goes to the person and not to his arguments. We don't permit such personal attacks here. Considering your recent history of such disrespect for proper decorum on this forum, you are now on Post Moderation for the next 3 weeks. During this time every one of your posts must be screened by a moderator before it will appear on the forum. If during or after this time on Post Moderation you continue to post such personal insults of our posters you will be muted or even banned from this site. Please feel free to appeal my warning via private message to Fr. George if you think it unfair.
- PeterTheAleut |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 01:54:06 AM by PeterTheAleut »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
TheJackel
Member
Offline
Faith: Materialist
Posts: 240
|
|
« Reply #96 on: February 19, 2011, 06:36:00 AM » |
|
"It is like he is building this huge Rube Goldberg machine of reason and logic to try and explain God's love, God's creation, and God's energies warming his heart like the sun shining on a beach. As we lay on the beach enjoying the rays of God's love, he is running around trying to build a wall of sand to keep the ocean tide away. We just can't help to laugh as he tries to use his little shovel so desperately I don't deny that the Sun exists, nor do I proclaim it to be made of nothing And I bask in the sun all the time to warm my heart with it's life giving love  And yep, the Sun surely is responsible for the creation of the heavier elements to which have given rise to the possibility of life. Not sure what wall I have been building to keep the Sunlight out of my life O.o .. Perhaps I'm the only one with the open blinds? Funny watching Christians worship the Sun while they have no clue as to the fact that they are. lol |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 06:40:55 AM by TheJackel »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
Achronos
What's so good about Cincinnati? You like it? You think Cincinnati is cool? I've never heard anyone say, 'I'm going to Cincinnati on vacation.'
Site Supporter
Warned
Hoplitarches
Offline
Faith: Building Steam with a Grain of Salt
Jurisdiction: Just as little is seen in pure light as in pure darkness.
Posts: 9,342
And we gave him the Rolling Stone cover?!
|
|
« Reply #97 on: February 21, 2011, 02:49:13 AM » |
|
Oh...wow. You do realize that quote is just using the rays of the sun as a figure of speech for the energies of God? If I said "I have butterflies in my stomach" you would probably take it literally.
/facepalm
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
“Without music, life would be a mistake.”
“The last capitalist we hang shall be the one who sold us the rope.”
"Face the facts of being what you are, for that is what changes what you are."
"We see at once that the words absolute, divine, eternal, and so on do not express what is implied in them.
|
|
|
TheJackel
Member
Offline
Faith: Materialist
Posts: 240
|
|
« Reply #98 on: February 21, 2011, 04:21:28 AM » |
|
Oh...wow. You do realize that quote is just using the rays of the sun as a figure of speech for the energies of God? If I said "I have butterflies in my stomach" you would probably take it literally.
/facepalm
Actually I did know.. But I was equating your religion to that of the worshiping of a sun GOD.. Even your sites banner displays that kind of symbolism quite nicely |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Papist
|
|
« Reply #99 on: February 21, 2011, 11:28:08 AM » |
|
Oh...wow. You do realize that quote is just using the rays of the sun as a figure of speech for the energies of God? If I said "I have butterflies in my stomach" you would probably take it literally.
/facepalm
Actually I did know.. But I was equating your religion to that of the worshiping of a sun GOD.. Even your sites banner displays that kind of symbolism quite nicely I am embarrassed for you. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting us to be partakers of his divinity, assumed our human nature so that, having become man, he might make men gods." - St. Thomas Aquinas
|
|
|
admiralnick
Cardinal, Editor for Photogalleries
High Elder
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,865
|
|
« Reply #100 on: February 21, 2011, 12:15:45 PM » |
|
So Jackel, what would you say to this:
My mind, body, and soul have a need for God, therefore God must exist.
-Nick
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
The ORIGINAL: "NULL"
|
|
|
|
Papist
|
|
« Reply #101 on: February 21, 2011, 12:54:20 PM » |
|
So Jackel, what would you say to this:
My mind, body, and soul have a need for God, therefore God must exist.
-Nick
I really like this argument. It's fleshed out here: http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics/desire.htmBut I doubt that Jackal will accet such an existential argument, though it's actually one of my favorites. I highly encourage Jackal to read the artical above, and seriously consider all of it's implications before he simply just states, "lol. Stupid argument. LOL" |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting us to be partakers of his divinity, assumed our human nature so that, having become man, he might make men gods." - St. Thomas Aquinas
|
|
|
TheJackel
Member
Offline
Faith: Materialist
Posts: 240
|
|
« Reply #102 on: February 21, 2011, 01:08:07 PM » |
|
So Jackel, what would you say to this:
My mind, body, and soul have a need for God, therefore God must exist.
-Nick
Please validate that a Mind, Body, and soul would require a GOD to exist. Sorry, but your own existence and your own philosophy about mind and body is only evidence of your own existence. And you do realize there is more than one spirituality belief in this world that doesn't encompass a magical deity correct? Even Atheists can be spiritual.. Your assumptions that a god must exist is incorrect. Existence would exist with or without one because a GOD is irrelevant to it. It is not existence that requires a GOD but your supposed Deity that would require it in order to exist. Thus I can play that game to and just say that no GOD exists. I am embarrassed for you. Right back at ya... Adults with imaginary friends is silly. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 01:11:54 PM by TheJackel »
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
Papist
|
|
« Reply #103 on: February 21, 2011, 01:13:51 PM » |
|
I am embarrassed for you. Right back at ya... Adults with imaginary friends is silly. Actually, the reason that I am embarrassed for you is that you accept the magically philosophy of materialism. Your fairies and dwarfs (matter only) perform all kinds of magical tricks like bringing something from nothing, creating more from less, and forming order from disorder. |
|
|
|
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 01:14:08 PM by Papist »
|
Logged
|
"The only-begotten Son of God, wanting us to be partakers of his divinity, assumed our human nature so that, having become man, he might make men gods." - St. Thomas Aquinas
|
|
|
Achronos
What's so good about Cincinnati? You like it? You think Cincinnati is cool? I've never heard anyone say, 'I'm going to Cincinnati on vacation.'
Site Supporter
Warned
Hoplitarches
Offline
Faith: Building Steam with a Grain of Salt
Jurisdiction: Just as little is seen in pure light as in pure darkness.
Posts: 9,342
And we gave him the Rolling Stone cover?!
|
|
« Reply #104 on: February 21, 2011, 01:16:18 PM » |
|
So Jackel, what would you say to this:
My mind, body, and soul have a need for God, therefore God must exist.
-Nick
Please validate that a Mind, Body, and soul would require a GOD to exist. Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh he didn't say require but had a need for God. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
“Without music, life would be a mistake.”
“The last capitalist we hang shall be the one who sold us the rope.”
"Face the facts of being what you are, for that is what changes what you are."
"We see at once that the words absolute, divine, eternal, and so on do not express what is implied in them.
|
|
|
admiralnick
Cardinal, Editor for Photogalleries
High Elder
Offline
Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,865
|
|
« Reply #105 on: February 21, 2011, 02:31:58 PM » |
|
So Jackel, what would you say to this:
My mind, body, and soul have a need for God, therefore God must exist.
-Nick
Please validate that a Mind, Body, and soul would require a GOD to exist. Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh he didn't say require but had a need for God. Right on, I didn't say that my mind, body, and soul require a God, I said they have a need for it. The words were purposefully chosen. If you want to argue syntax, then: My mind, body, and soul have a longing for God, therefore, God must exist. -Nick |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
The ORIGINAL: "NULL"
|
|
|
Tzimis
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
Offline
Faith: Greek Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 2,360
|
|
« Reply #106 on: February 21, 2011, 03:15:37 PM » |
|
So Jackel, what would you say to this:
My mind, body, and soul have a need for God, therefore God must exist.
-Nick
Please validate that a Mind, Body, and soul would require a GOD to exist. Sorry, but your own existence and your own philosophy about mind and body is only evidence of your own existence. And you do realize there is more than one spirituality belief in this world that doesn't encompass a magical deity correct? Even Atheists can be spiritual.. Your assumptions that a god must exist is incorrect. Existence would exist with or without one because a GOD is irrelevant to it. It is not existence that requires a GOD but your supposed Deity that would require it in order to exist. Thus I can play that game to and just say that no GOD exists. That's "Mathematical singularity" for you.. The point at which math breaks down. There is a good argument for both and in the end is just a guess. But someone must be right. Right? |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
Excellence of character, then, is a state concerned with choice, lying in a mean relative to us, this being determined by reason and in the way in which the man of practical wisdom would determine it. Now it is a mean between two vices, that which depends on excess and that which depends on defect.
|
|
|
Achronos
What's so good about Cincinnati? You like it? You think Cincinnati is cool? I've never heard anyone say, 'I'm going to Cincinnati on vacation.'
Site Supporter
Warned
Hoplitarches
Offline
Faith: Building Steam with a Grain of Salt
Jurisdiction: Just as little is seen in pure light as in pure darkness.
Posts: 9,342
And we gave him the Rolling Stone cover?!
|
|
« Reply #107 on: February 21, 2011, 03:30:11 PM » |
|
Hey Jackel, I know this is going to be an obvious answer from you but I don't like to construct straw men. You don't believe in an after life, correct? May I ask what is wrong with believing in life after death?
|
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
“Without music, life would be a mistake.”
“The last capitalist we hang shall be the one who sold us the rope.”
"Face the facts of being what you are, for that is what changes what you are."
"We see at once that the words absolute, divine, eternal, and so on do not express what is implied in them.
|
|
|
TheJackel
Member
Offline
Faith: Materialist
Posts: 240
|
|
« Reply #108 on: February 23, 2011, 02:14:23 PM » |
|
Hey Jackel, I know this is going to be an obvious answer from you but I don't like to construct straw men. You don't believe in an after life, correct? May I ask what is wrong with believing in life after death?
Actually I do believe in the possibility of the after life.. I just know it won't be made of nothing, or not be bound to the same principle rules of information theory. I'm not even arguing for the non-existence of a GOD. I am only arguing the fallacies surrounding such concepts to which are impossible and self-collapsing :/ |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
TheJackel
Member
Offline
Faith: Materialist
Posts: 240
|
|
« Reply #109 on: February 23, 2011, 02:15:06 PM » |
|
Hey Jackel, I know this is going to be an obvious answer from you but I don't like to construct straw men. You don't believe in an after life, correct? May I ask what is wrong with believing in life after death?
Actually I do believe in the possibility of the after life.. I just know it won't be made of nothing, or not be bound to the same principle rules of information theory. I'm not even arguing for the non-existence of an entity to which could be called a GOD. I am only arguing the fallacies surrounding such concepts to which are impossible and self-collapsing :/ Or that one really isn't required to where there can be an untold number of plausible possibilities without having to cling to fallacies. |
|
|
|
|
Logged
|
|
|
|
|
