Author Topic: Crazy Talk, if you have something stupid to say abolut the WR it goes in here.  (Read 16166 times)

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Offline ozgeorge

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Where is an Earth-directed, X-class, Coronal Mass Ejection when you need one?
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 04:23:27 AM by ozgeorge »
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Offline ozgeorge

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« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2011, 04:58:31 AM »
Where is an Earth-directed, X-class, Coronal Mass Ejection when you need one?

Talk of the devil and he appears!
The Sun has just released an X-Class flare which has sent a Coronal Mass Ejection heading our way (due to hit on the 16th):

http://spaceweather.com/index.php (see archives for February 15th 2011)

also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6uXrrnbbFk
« Last Edit: February 15, 2011, 05:00:40 AM by ozgeorge »
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline SubdeaconDavid

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Crazy Talk, if you have something stupid to say abolut the WR it goes in here.
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2011, 05:53:53 AM »
Where is an Earth-directed, X-class, Coronal Mass Ejection when you need one?

Talk of the devil and he appears!
The Sun has just released an X-Class flare which has sent a Coronal Mass Ejection heading our way (due to hit on the 16th):

http://spaceweather.com/index.php (see archives for February 15th 2011)

also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6uXrrnbbFk
I think the sun flare only affects New Calendarist places. ;D
Visit my blog@  http://orthodoxtasmania.blogspot.com

To the Russians abroad it has been granted to shine in the whole world  the light of Orthodoxy, so that other peoples, seeing their good deeds, might glorify our Father in Heaven, and thus obtain salvation
S John of Shanghai & San Francisco

Offline ozgeorge

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Crazy Talk, if you have something stupid to say abolut the WR it goes in here.
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2011, 05:58:48 AM »
Where is an Earth-directed, X-class, Coronal Mass Ejection when you need one?

Talk of the devil and he appears!
The Sun has just released an X-Class flare which has sent a Coronal Mass Ejection heading our way (due to hit on the 16th):

http://spaceweather.com/index.php (see archives for February 15th 2011)

also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6uXrrnbbFk
I think the sun flare only affects New Calendarist places. ;D
Does it hit you guys 13 days after it hits us?
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline SubdeaconDavid

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Crazy Talk, if you have something stupid to say abolut the WR it goes in here.
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2011, 06:10:32 AM »
Where is an Earth-directed, X-class, Coronal Mass Ejection when you need one?

Talk of the devil and he appears!
The Sun has just released an X-Class flare which has sent a Coronal Mass Ejection heading our way (due to hit on the 16th):

http://spaceweather.com/index.php (see archives for February 15th 2011)

also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6uXrrnbbFk
I think the sun flare only affects New Calendarist places. ;D
Does it hit you guys 13 days after it hits us?
Misses us altogether.  These are the scientists who cannot accept that the world is only 6000 years old.
Visit my blog@  http://orthodoxtasmania.blogspot.com

To the Russians abroad it has been granted to shine in the whole world  the light of Orthodoxy, so that other peoples, seeing their good deeds, might glorify our Father in Heaven, and thus obtain salvation
S John of Shanghai & San Francisco

Offline ozgeorge

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Crazy Talk, if you have something stupid to say abolut the WR it goes in here.
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2011, 06:11:28 AM »
Where is an Earth-directed, X-class, Coronal Mass Ejection when you need one?

Talk of the devil and he appears!
The Sun has just released an X-Class flare which has sent a Coronal Mass Ejection heading our way (due to hit on the 16th):

http://spaceweather.com/index.php (see archives for February 15th 2011)

also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6uXrrnbbFk
I think the sun flare only affects New Calendarist places. ;D
Does it hit you guys 13 days after it hits us?
Misses us altogether.  These are the scientists who cannot accept that the world is only 6000 years old.
Uh huh.....Is that official ROCOR teaching?
« Last Edit: February 15, 2011, 06:12:06 AM by ozgeorge »
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline SubdeaconDavid

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Crazy Talk, if you have something stupid to say abolut the WR it goes in here.
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2011, 06:26:17 AM »
Where is an Earth-directed, X-class, Coronal Mass Ejection when you need one?

Talk of the devil and he appears!
The Sun has just released an X-Class flare which has sent a Coronal Mass Ejection heading our way (due to hit on the 16th):

http://spaceweather.com/index.php (see archives for February 15th 2011)

also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6uXrrnbbFk
I think the sun flare only affects New Calendarist places. ;D
Does it hit you guys 13 days after it hits us?
Misses us altogether.  These are the scientists who cannot accept that the world is only 6000 years old.
Uh huh.....Is that official ROCOR teaching?
I am not sure.  According to the Russian Orthodox St. Seraphim Liturgical Calendar for 2011 it is the 7519th Year since Creation - so I can see why you would be incredulous at my mistake.  Orthodox Wiki has an interesting summary of the Byzantine Creation Era Calendar: http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Byzantine_Creation_Era
Visit my blog@  http://orthodoxtasmania.blogspot.com

To the Russians abroad it has been granted to shine in the whole world  the light of Orthodoxy, so that other peoples, seeing their good deeds, might glorify our Father in Heaven, and thus obtain salvation
S John of Shanghai & San Francisco

Offline ozgeorge

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Crazy Talk, if you have something stupid to say abolut the WR it goes in here.
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2011, 06:52:13 AM »
Where is an Earth-directed, X-class, Coronal Mass Ejection when you need one?

Talk of the devil and he appears!
The Sun has just released an X-Class flare which has sent a Coronal Mass Ejection heading our way (due to hit on the 16th):

http://spaceweather.com/index.php (see archives for February 15th 2011)

also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6uXrrnbbFk
I think the sun flare only affects New Calendarist places. ;D
Does it hit you guys 13 days after it hits us?
Misses us altogether.  These are the scientists who cannot accept that the world is only 6000 years old.
Uh huh.....Is that official ROCOR teaching?
I am not sure.  According to the Russian Orthodox St. Seraphim Liturgical Calendar for 2011 it is the 7519th Year since Creation - so I can see why you would be incredulous at my mistake.  Orthodox Wiki has an interesting summary of the Byzantine Creation Era Calendar: http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Byzantine_Creation_Era
Oh I don't doubt that you believe that. Nothing surprises me about you guys.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline SubdeaconDavid

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Crazy Talk, if you have something stupid to say abolut the WR it goes in here.
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2011, 08:16:25 AM »
Where is an Earth-directed, X-class, Coronal Mass Ejection when you need one?

Talk of the devil and he appears!
The Sun has just released an X-Class flare which has sent a Coronal Mass Ejection heading our way (due to hit on the 16th):

http://spaceweather.com/index.php (see archives for February 15th 2011)

also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6uXrrnbbFk
I think the sun flare only affects New Calendarist places. ;D
Does it hit you guys 13 days after it hits us?
Misses us altogether.  These are the scientists who cannot accept that the world is only 6000 years old.
Uh huh.....Is that official ROCOR teaching?
I am not sure.  According to the Russian Orthodox St. Seraphim Liturgical Calendar for 2011 it is the 7519th Year since Creation - so I can see why you would be incredulous at my mistake.  Orthodox Wiki has an interesting summary of the Byzantine Creation Era Calendar: http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Byzantine_Creation_Era
Oh I don't doubt that you believe that. Nothing surprises me about you guys.
Nothing surprises you?  Perhaps you could explain.  I am sure many many Russian Orthodox do NOT believe in the Byzantine Creation Era dating, however some like me find it easier to believe what the Church taught traditionally and what many saints taught.  Orthjodox Wiki cites:

St. John Chrysostom
St. John Chrysostom says clearly in his Homily "On the Cross and the Thief", that Christ:
"opened for us today Paradise, which had remained closed for some 5000 years."[18].
St. Isaac the Syrian
St. Isaac the Syrian writes in a Homily that before Christ:
"for five thousand years five hundred and some years God left Adam (i.e. man) to labor on the earth."[19].
St. Augustine
Blessed Augustine writes in the City of God (written AD 413-426):
"Let us omit the conjectures of men who know not what they say, when they speak of the nature and origin of the human race...They are deceived by those highly mendacious documents which profess to give the history of many thousands of years, though reckoning by the sacred writings we find that not 6,000 years have passed. (City of God 12:10)[20].
Augustine goes on to say that the ancient Greek chronology "does not exceed the true account of the duration of the world as it is given in our documents (i.e. the Scriptures), which are truly sacred."
St. Hippolytus
St. Hippolytus of Rome (ca.170-235) maintained on Scriptural grounds that the Lord's birth took place in 5500 AM, and held that the birth of Christ took place on a passover day, deducing that its month-date was 25 March[21] (see Alexandrian Era). He gave the following intervals:
"...from Adam to the flood 2242 years, thence to Abraham 1141 years, thence to the Exodus 430 years, thence to the passover of Joshua 41 years, thence to the passover of Hezekiah 864 years, thence to the passover of Josiah 114 years, thence to the passover of Ezra 107 years, and thence to the birth of Christ 563 years."[21].
In his Commentary on Daniel, one of his earlier writings, he proceeds to set out additional reasons for accepting the date of 5500 AM:
"First he quotes Exod. xxv. 10f. and pointing out that the length, breadth and height of the ark of the covenant amount in all to 5 1/2 cubits, says that these symbolize the 5,500 years from Adam at the end of which the Saviour was born. He then quotes from Jn. xix. 14 ' it was about the sixth hour ' and, understanding by that 5 1/2 hours, takes each hour to correspond to a thousand years of the world's life..."[21]
Around AD 202 Hippolytus held that the Lord was born in the 42nd year of the reign of Augustus[note 9] and that he was born in 5500AM. In his Commentary on Daniel he did not need to establish the precise year of the Lord's birth; he is not concerned about the day of the week, the month-date, or even the year; it was sufficient for his purpose to show that Christ was born in the days of Augustus in 5500 AM.
Quinisext Council
It is referred to indirectly in Canon III of the Quinisext Council, which the Orthodox Churches consider as ecumenical, its canons being added to the decrees of the Fifth and Sixth Councils, as follows:
"... as of the fifteenth day of the month of January last past, in the last fourth Indiction, in the year six thousand one hundred and ninety [6190], ..."[22]

So I don't see the Byzantine Creation Era calendar to be an article of faith, but I do think St. John Chrysostom and St. Augustine have much greater credibility than atheistic so-called scientists.

The modernism of the Oecumenical Patriarchate in the years following the end of the Great War never graced the Russian Church at home or Abroad - apart from the 1920's Living Church experiment of the Bolsheviks.  It is the Patriarchate of Moscow and All Russia that has continued to protect the Julian Calendar, and to reject the modernist innovations that one finds in some Greek churches around the world - from pipe organs to pews, from beardless clergy to shortened services, retaining the Saturday Vigil which is almost unheard of in the Greek churches outside Greece and of course rejecting the calendar that the Patriarch Meletios  reputed to be a Freemason introduced.

Even the Western-rite within ROCOR adheres to the Julian Calendar, in obedience to the unbroken tradition of the Russian Church.  As the Russian Church grows at home and abroad, with missionary endeavours planting indigenous Churches in Thailand, Indonesia, Korea, Japan and so many places, with a new cathedral and seminary in Paris being built, I cannot see any likely diminution of the contribution of traditional Orthodoxy.  You certainly won't find electric candles and a Wurlitzer organ in any of them!
Visit my blog@  http://orthodoxtasmania.blogspot.com

To the Russians abroad it has been granted to shine in the whole world  the light of Orthodoxy, so that other peoples, seeing their good deeds, might glorify our Father in Heaven, and thus obtain salvation
S John of Shanghai & San Francisco

Offline ozgeorge

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Crazy Talk, if you have something stupid to say abolut the WR it goes in here.
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2011, 08:18:53 AM »
So God made dinosaur fossils just to confuse us?
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Offline Irish Hermit

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Crazy Talk, if you have something stupid to say abolut the WR it goes in here.
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2011, 08:41:34 AM »
Where is an Earth-directed, X-class, Coronal Mass Ejection when you need one?

Talk of the devil and he appears!
The Sun has just released an X-Class flare which has sent a Coronal Mass Ejection heading our way (due to hit on the 16th):

http://spaceweather.com/index.php (see archives for February 15th 2011)

also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6uXrrnbbFk
I think the sun flare only affects New Calendarist places. ;D
Does it hit you guys 13 days after it hits us?
Misses us altogether.  These are the scientists who cannot accept that the world is only 6000 years old.
Uh huh.....Is that official ROCOR teaching?
I am not sure.  According to the Russian Orthodox St. Seraphim Liturgical Calendar for 2011 it is the 7519th Year since Creation - so I can see why you would be incredulous at my mistake.  Orthodox Wiki has an interesting summary of the Byzantine Creation Era Calendar: http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Byzantine_Creation_Era
Oh I don't doubt that you believe that. Nothing surprises me about you guys.

The Greek Orthodox acknowledge the Byzantine Calendar....

"We had a very special day at the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem on this November 22nd, 2010/November 9th, 7519. We celebrated the enthronement of the then new elected Patriarch Theophilos III..."

http://abbaa.blog.lemonde.fr/2010/11/23/patriarch-theophilos-iii-of-jerusalem-five-years

Offline ozgeorge

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Crazy Talk, if you have something stupid to say abolut the WR it goes in here.
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2011, 08:46:08 AM »
Where is an Earth-directed, X-class, Coronal Mass Ejection when you need one?

Talk of the devil and he appears!
The Sun has just released an X-Class flare which has sent a Coronal Mass Ejection heading our way (due to hit on the 16th):

http://spaceweather.com/index.php (see archives for February 15th 2011)

also:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6uXrrnbbFk
I think the sun flare only affects New Calendarist places. ;D
Does it hit you guys 13 days after it hits us?
Misses us altogether.  These are the scientists who cannot accept that the world is only 6000 years old.
Uh huh.....Is that official ROCOR teaching?
I am not sure.  According to the Russian Orthodox St. Seraphim Liturgical Calendar for 2011 it is the 7519th Year since Creation - so I can see why you would be incredulous at my mistake.  Orthodox Wiki has an interesting summary of the Byzantine Creation Era Calendar: http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Byzantine_Creation_Era
Oh I don't doubt that you believe that. Nothing surprises me about you guys.

The Greek Orthodox acknowledge the Byzantine Calendar....

"We had a very special day at the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem on this November 22nd, 2010/November 9th, 7519. We celebrated the enthronement of the then new elected Patriarch Theophilos III..."

http://abbaa.blog.lemonde.fr/2010/11/23/patriarch-theophilos-iii-of-jerusalem-five-years
Do you also think Creation is only seven and a half thousand years old?
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Crazy Talk, if you have something stupid to say abolut the WR it goes in here.
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2011, 08:52:21 AM »

Do you also think Creation is only seven and a half thousand years old?

I'll have to ask the local Greeks.  I am pretty sure that their pocket calendar has: 2011 years since the Birth of Christ, 7519 since the Creation of the World.

Thed Byzantine calendar flips over on 1st September and so we are currently still in 7519.

Offline ozgeorge

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« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2011, 08:57:43 AM »

Do you also think Creation is only seven and a half thousand years old?

I'll have to ask the local Greeks.  I am pretty sure that their pocket calendar has: 2011 years since the Birth of Christ, 7519 since the Creation of the World.

Thed Byzantine calendar flips over on 1st September and so we are currently still in 7519.
Yeah, I know that, but do you believe like SubdeaconDavid that this is the actual number of years since God created the Cosmos?
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Crazy Talk, if you have something stupid to say abolut the WR it goes in here.
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2011, 09:09:28 AM »

Do you also think Creation is only seven and a half thousand years old?

I'll have to ask the local Greeks.  I am pretty sure that their pocket calendar has: 2011 years since the Birth of Christ, 7519 since the Creation of the World.

Thed Byzantine calendar flips over on 1st September and so we are currently still in 7519.
Yeah, I know that, but do you believe like SubdeaconDavid that this is the actual number of years since God created the Cosmos?

If I deny it will I be seen as slighting the Ecumenical Throne?

Offline ozgeorge

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Crazy Talk, if you have something stupid to say abolut the WR it goes in here.
« Reply #15 on: February 15, 2011, 09:13:27 AM »

Do you also think Creation is only seven and a half thousand years old?

I'll have to ask the local Greeks.  I am pretty sure that their pocket calendar has: 2011 years since the Birth of Christ, 7519 since the Creation of the World.

Thed Byzantine calendar flips over on 1st September and so we are currently still in 7519.
Yeah, I know that, but do you believe like SubdeaconDavid that this is the actual number of years since God created the Cosmos?

If I deny it will I be seen as slighting the Ecumenical Throne?
When has that ever worried you? :)
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Offline Paisius

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So God made dinosaur fossils just to confuse us?


Mission accomplished.  :P

Offline augustin717

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Quote
retaining the Saturday Vigil which is almost unheard of in the Greek churches outside Greece
That's as unheard of in churches outside Greece, as it is in churches in Greece (and elsewhere, like Middle East and Balkans). There they have vespers in the evening and matins in the morning. Only monasteries and perhaps, some cathedrals would do a vigil.
She hears, upon that water without sound,
A voice that cries, “The tomb in Palestine
Is not the porch of spirits lingering.
It is the grave of Jesus, where he lay.”
We live in an old chaos of the sun,
Or old dependency of day and night,
Or island solitude, unsponsored, free,
Of that wide water, inescapable.

Offline PoorFoolNicholas

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Well one thing I can say abolut dinosaurs is that they are definitely a conspiracy, just like that dang spell checker...

Offline Ortho_cat

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Hmm so you're saying there some connection between dinosaurs and the western rite? ;)
« Last Edit: February 15, 2011, 12:19:02 PM by Ortho_cat »

Offline podkarpatska

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No disrespect to the Fathers, but they lived when they lived and they knew the body of accepted worldly knowledge that was then known and accepted. Should we thus believe that the universe is geocentric, the sun revolves around the earth and that humours and vapors cause disease?

I can not and will not accept the premise that the ability of mankind to expand the frontiers of knowledge through the use and development of the intellect that God bestowed upon us when He created us in His own image is somehow sinful and always linked to the sin of Eve in her succumbing to the temptations of the serpent. Nor do I ascribe to the erroneous and hubristic belief that we humans can ultimately learn all knowledge and create a perfect world through science and earthly knowledge without God and the Church.

For me, I just don't need an answer to the question posed here, there are plenty of valid questions that impact us all on a daily basis that we have to face.

Online Asteriktos

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When did the rosary begin to be used as a prayer, and why do the Western Riters favor it? Not criticizing, but it's a stupid question, so I figured this was the thread for it...

Online Asteriktos

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When did the rosary begin to be used as a prayer, and why do the Western Riters favor it? Not criticizing, but it's a stupid question, so I figured this was the thread for it...

Good question!

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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What's the appeal to WR?  To me it seems as if it's trying to appease RC's who want to be EO.  How 'Eastern' can a 'Western Rite' Eastern Orthodox Christian be?  Do they call themselves Eastern Orthodox?  Western Orthodox?  It just seems rather silly to me.
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Offline TheMathematician

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What's the appeal to WR?  To me it seems as if it's trying to appease RC's who want to be EO.  How 'Eastern' can a 'Western Rite' Eastern Orthodox Christian be?  Do they call themselves Eastern Orthodox?  Western Orthodox?  It just seems rather silly to me.

They would call themselves Orthodox, the same as I call myself, I would assume

Offline Shanghaiski

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What's the appeal to WR?  To me it seems as if it's trying to appease RC's who want to be EO.  How 'Eastern' can a 'Western Rite' Eastern Orthodox Christian be?  Do they call themselves Eastern Orthodox?  Western Orthodox?  It just seems rather silly to me.

There are people who have grown up worshiping liturgically in ways derived from traditional Western Orthodox rites. They have become accustomed to these and have developed an inner spiritual life based on these. Many who convert to Orthodoxy from Protestantism have no clue about any of this because their worship was not influenced by traditional Western forms.
Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
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I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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What's the appeal to WR?  To me it seems as if it's trying to appease RC's who want to be EO.  How 'Eastern' can a 'Western Rite' Eastern Orthodox Christian be?  Do they call themselves Eastern Orthodox?  Western Orthodox?  It just seems rather silly to me.

There are people who have grown up worshiping liturgically in ways derived from traditional Western Orthodox rites. They have become accustomed to these and have developed an inner spiritual life based on these. Many who convert to Orthodoxy from Protestantism have no clue about any of this because their worship was not influenced by traditional Western forms.

 Thanks, Shanghaiski.  I highlighted the word above that causes a little concern for me.  Who wrote the WR liturgy?  From where did they find the materials to construct it?  I seem to recall that St. John Maximovitch gave his blessing for a WR.       
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Offline Alpo

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But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline GabrieltheCelt

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Offline Alpo

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But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
Leviticus 19:34

Offline Sleeper

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What's the appeal to WR?  To me it seems as if it's trying to appease RC's who want to be EO.  How 'Eastern' can a 'Western Rite' Eastern Orthodox Christian be?  Do they call themselves Eastern Orthodox?  Western Orthodox?  It just seems rather silly to me.

There are people who have grown up worshiping liturgically in ways derived from traditional Western Orthodox rites. They have become accustomed to these and have developed an inner spiritual life based on these. Many who convert to Orthodoxy from Protestantism have no clue about any of this because their worship was not influenced by traditional Western forms.

 Thanks, Shanghaiski.  I highlighted the word above that causes a little concern for me.  Who wrote the WR liturgy?  From where did they find the materials to construct it?  I seem to recall that St. John Maximovitch gave his blessing for a WR.       

Technically, nobody wrote the Western mass. It grew organically from the seeds planted by the Apostles in Rome (Peter & Paul) and Ephesus (John). It developed along similar lines as the Eastern liturgy, and to this day they bear remarkable similarity in form and content (being divided up into the liturgy of the catechumens, and the liturgy of the faithful, for example). The ancient Orthodox Western Mass was inherited by people no longer in communion with Orthodoxy, and their errent beliefs were sometimes reflected in their worship (though not as often as you might think, the West was much, much more liturgically conservative than the East). These instances were corrected, and the Mass was also enriched by the unbroken experience of the East when it was restored and blessed for use.

Shanghaiski put it wonderfully, about the appeal and those for whom the Western Rite is intended. Essentially, Westerners who wanted to come into communion with Orthodoxy yet retain their small-c catholic way of life as much as possible, were received and blessed to do so, under the loving guidance of Orthodox bishops.

IN the early church there was always a variety of rites and forms of worship, within a complete union of dogma and harmony of spirituality. Westerners inculturated the mysteries of the faith in their own way, as did Easterners. All that has happened, really, is this ancient tradition of the West has come back into the fold of the undivided Church.

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Offline LivenotoneviL

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Here's a question: how regulated is the Western Liturgy in ROCOR and Antioch, and should there be more regulation / more information about the norms expected for each Mother Church?

I know that the Western Rite is something that isn't as mainstream, but I feel like even for as small as it is, it's like ignoring a splinter to not feel pain when you give priests so much "artistic freedom."

There appears to be so much independence in Liturgy, which I think can be dangerous - especially when one looks at how uniform the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom is - despite cultural diversity, but nevertheless one would feel at home in a John Chrysostom Church. It's even to the point that I've seen video footage of Protestant hymns and belled censers, and some Churches I've seen are just flat out iconoclastic and modernistic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBLTP4ojITs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92UwIVFGVT4&t=5s

Shouldn't there be more rules? I love the idea of a Western Rite - but shouldn't it be the Church that sets guidelines and what's permitted, not the priests?

I know there is a fear for many Orthodox that the bishops might get carried away and remove beautiful things which are completely Orthodox - like having more than two candles on the altar or having ornate / iconographic chasubles, but I think this is a risk that is worth taking just so there is a standard.

We spend so much time talking and debating about the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom - like I've had talks with Greek friends about how shocked they were that the Our Father and Creed is chanted in OCA.

But I feel like the Western Rite should be brought to at least somewhere close to that level.

I mean, the Tridentine mass in the Roman Catholic Church is very, very regulated like the Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUCa0pkPBhs

And as for liturgical colors? Forget about it. I've seen a ROCOR Western Rite website talk about how green is kind of an inappropriate color, but I've seen priests wear green.

https://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/a-western-rite-orthodox-parish/

Like, shouldn't the Church say, for example,

Here's what art is appropriate, here is what isn't.

Here are appropriate hymns, here is what isn't.

Here are appropriate liturgical items, here is what isn't.

Don't use a belled censer, and cense the altar it in this way.

Here are the required movements, here is how you perform Sacraments - use chant in this part, don't use chant here.

You need icons in Church, here and here; you need at least two candles, up to six on the altar, made of beeswax without dye.

There needs to be an icon of Christ here, an icon of the Theotokos and Child here,

Here are the movements that are required at this point and this point of the Liturgy of Saint Gregory the Great,
here are the movements required at this point and this point in the Liturgy of Saint Tikhon.

You ought to wear a biretta or a skullcap, but you can't wear a Greek Orthodox hat, etc.

You can say these prayers (like Salve Regina and Agnus Dei), but these popular Roman Catholic prayers (like Pange Lingua Glorissi) are absolutely forbidden,

Ash Wednesday is allowed, but the Fast must begin on the same day as the rest of the Church,
etc. etc.

I think that if we want to give the Western Rite more legitimacy, there needs to be more information and accessibility of information about what the Church demands for her children.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 03:34:33 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
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Offline LivenotoneviL

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I should also add that, for ROCOR, this is the only website which I have found which lays down the rules for what is allowed in ROCOR. However, the ROCOR Western Rite Conference completely just ignored a lot of these guidelines, including the prohibition of statues, the forbidden six candles, the flowers in the Holy of Holies, the lack of a Rood Screen (why has Rome abandoned this beautiful practice?), etc.

https://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/a-western-rite-orthodox-parish/



So, I would love to see a legitimate from Church authority recreation of what was lost to the Great Schism - the beauty of the West which speaks to a liturgy that speaks to my soul.

However, I think there is a lot of work to be done in its legitimacy.

Edited to reduce image size. 

In the future, please preview your posts and, if necessary, use the image tags to edit your photos to a more reasonable size.  If you need assistance, please contact a moderator. 

Mor Ephrem, section moderator
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 09:12:00 PM by Mor Ephrem »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

Offline LivenotoneviL

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I think this problem is easily demonstrated by comparing a Western Rite Sacrament and an Eastern Rite Sacrament:

Eastern Rite Baptism:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=suz02fDtYpc

Western Rite Baptism:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08z8Lf7NnCw
« Last Edit: September 21, 2017, 09:21:20 PM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

Offline The young fogey

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I should also add that, for ROCOR, this is the only website which I have found which lays down the rules for what is allowed in ROCOR. However, the ROCOR Western Rite Conference completely just ignored a lot of these guidelines, including the prohibition of statues, the forbidden six candles, the flowers in the Holy of Holies, the lack of a Rood Screen (why has Rome abandoned this beautiful practice?), etc.

https://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/a-western-rite-orthodox-parish/



So, I would love to see a legitimate from Church authority recreation of what was lost to the Great Schism - the beauty of the West which speaks to a liturgy that speaks to my soul.

However, I think there is a lot of work to be done in its legitimacy.

Thanks for this post. This thread seems to be for things one doesn't like regarding WRO, but I don't get that feeling from this. ROCOR's rules make sense for them. (It's not supposed to be Catholicism under Orthodox bishops so don't mimic baroque/19th-century Catholicism. Interestingly, although most Slavic Byzantine Catholics don't think this way, Byzantine Catholicism is supposed to be Orthodoxy under the Pope.) But I say the ban on statues is just anti-Westernism. If I were one of their bishops I'd crack down on mimicking the Byzantine Rite, that is, the "Woo hoo! We're Orthodox!" imitation you see at almost all of these churches including the Antiochian ones (just like latinizations on our side; not heretical but they disrespect perfectly good rites and hurt one's witness, ours and yours, by so doing) and cultivate the parallel (often with the same subjects and poses as Byzantine art) but truly Western church art that has been posted elsewhere here (from older Catholic churches such as basilicas in Rome; I'm saying copy the painting etc. style, not copy the grand scale of these old churches as that wouldn't be practical).

ROCOR borrowed a Catholic church for its WRO meeting (the Catholic bishop being ecumenical to never-Catholic Orthodox) so they made do with a church that wasn't set up according to their rules. Makes sense; not a problem for them.
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Offline WPM

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A calendar year is 12 months.
Learn meditation.

Offline LivenotoneviL

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Maybe there are a lot of rules in both jurisdictions, but I haven't gotten that impression so far. I know that the Western Rite is controversial, but it's allowed - so lets make sure there are rules to follow.

(P.S. - the "iconoclastic church" is the schismatic Orthodox Church of France - so maybe iconoclasm isn't that big of a problem)
« Last Edit: September 23, 2017, 11:55:24 AM by LivenotoneviL »
"Our wickedness shall not overpower the unspeakable goodness and mercy of God; our dullness shall not overpower God's wisdom, nor our infirmity God's omnipotence."
-Saint John of Kronstadt

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A calendar year is 12 months.

A baker's calendar has 13 months.
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A calendar year is 12 months.

A baker's calendar has 13 months.

A Martian calendar would have roughly 22.6 months.