Author Topic: purpose  (Read 569 times)

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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: purpose
« Reply #45 on: March 25, 2015, 02:32:33 PM »
Ok so I read through the stuff and forgive me but the answer seems to be, because we want it.
Isn't this why we follow the Byzantine Rite, because we want it?

Your justification for it is that there used to be a lot of different ways to do liturgy so we can do this our way.
What's wrong with that?

I don't think that is a very good reason. The church decided after the schism that we would all use the byzantine rite,
And many within the Church consider the Byzantine push for one unified Rite to be one of the great liturgical tragedies of our history. How many rich liturgical heritages did we trample and destroy in our effort to establish one unified rite for the whole Empire?

so I think unless there is a need to do something different we should maintain the standard that was set. There is also this point I would like to cautiously make. The western rite is very disorganized and this allows poisonous parishes like the one I know to slip in.
There are a lot of poisonous parishes in the Eastern Rite. We've even had venomous bishops whose abuses of power almost destroyed whole dioceses. This shows that the universal practice of one Eastern Rite is no guarantee against the abuses you experienced.

I feel for this to be done with out continual objection, there must be only one western rite liturgy, you would need to follow the same fasting rules (maybe most do forgive me if that's the case) you're priests need to have a good working knowledge of eastern rite. And there must be some way to make sure that at the least your priesthood and deaconate want to be western rite orthodox and aren't just using this as a way to remain RC or Episcopalian while either being married or just wanting to be part of a legitimate or conservative church.
Again with your hasty generalizations?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 02:49:22 PM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline wgw

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Re: purpose
« Reply #46 on: March 25, 2015, 02:44:10 PM »
The church did not decide that after the schism to my knowledge.  There was an Ecumenical Patriarch who wanted to suppress the Divine Liturgies of Ss. Mark and James, and who issued orders to this effect, but these have been widely ignored, and those were Eastern Rite liturgies.  As a rule I don't claim to speak with authority on this forum, but to my very through knowledge at no time was the Western Rite ever prohibited.  Rather, certain practices connected with the Western Rite, such as unleavened bread, were prohibited, but not after the schism, rather, at the Quinisext Council, which Rome never accepted.  So you can make the case that the Quinisext Council is not an ecumenical council but a local one, since Rome, while still in communion with the Eastern churches, did reject it, and was not excommunicated.  In fact it was the Romans who excommunicated the Patriarch of Constantinople; the anathemas came later.  The fact that Antioch and ROCOR among other jurisdictions (Romania, for example) indicates that there are in fact no canonical impediments to the Western Rite.

And I think is uncharitable in the extreme to label the attachment Western Rite Orthodox have to their rite as being along the lines of "because we want to."  When St. Tikhon of Moscow was alive there really wasn't a viable English language alternative to the Anglican liturgy, so modifying it to comply with Orthodox theology must have seemed very reasonable, especially in light of the close relations between the Anglicans and Orthodox that used to exist.  Likewise, asking people to change their style of worship is a stumbling block; if the style is not heretical, there's no reason to make them change.  And St. John Maximovitch confirmed that it was not heretical.

What is more, I think you're ignoring the huge liturgical diversity that exists in the Byzantine Rite.  There are a vast range of musical styles, two extant Typika and several extinct ones, six Divine Liturgies that have in recent years been celebrated in a Eucharistic context, including St. John Chrysostom and St. Basil, but also St. James, St. Mark, St. Peter and that of St. Serapion, recently celebrated by Metropolitan Seraphim of Piraeus for the first time in more than a thousand years; that liturgy is found in what is probably the oldest complete service book in the Christian church, the Euchologion of St. Serapion of Thmuis, which includes a complete set of services without the additional canonical material you find in the Apostolic Constitutions, for example.  There are also highly diverse ways of celebrating the liturgy.  The services of the monks at New Skete I am confident look nothing like the services in a Romanian parish church. 

Technically, the Divine Liturgies of Ss. Mark and James aren't even Byzantine Rite, but rather Byzantined versions of the liturgies of the Alexandrian and Jerusalem liturgies.   And the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom is derived from the Antiochene Anaphora of the Twelve Apostles according to the authors of The Eucharistic Liturgies and several other textbooks in my posession. 

So basically, the Byzantine Liturgy slowly evolved and drew from all of the ancient sees. And the old Roman liturgy was actually in many respects similiar, especially the Good Friday and Holy Saturday services.  Up until 1955.  And the Byzantine Rite probably gets its liturgical color scheme from the Roman Rite, since from what I've read the old Typikon only specifies light or dark vestments, and this is congruent with, for example,the Coptic Rite, which uses dark vestments in Holy Week.  So I beg you to be tolerant of your brothers.
I am Oriental Orthodox but love the Eastern Orthodox, and the Byzantine liturgy.  I also love the Western liturgy.  I hope for the reconciliation of our churches.

Please forgive any offense my posts cause; none is intended. No statements I make should be regarded as authoritative, regardless of tone. Let us bless the Lord ar all times.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: purpose
« Reply #47 on: March 25, 2015, 06:50:41 PM »
The church decided after the schism that we would all use the byzantine rite

When?  Where? 

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The western rite is very disorganized and this allows poisonous parishes like the one I know to slip in.

Shall I start a thread on Eastern rite parish horror stories?  Or would you like to admit that things happen even in overall stable environments?   

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I feel for this to be done with out continual objection, there must be only one western rite liturgy...

Define "liturgy". 

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...you would need to follow the same fasting rules (maybe most do forgive me if that's the case)...


Not even all the EO Eastern rite jurisdictions in America follow the same fasting rules.  Why force on the Western rite folks a unity you guys don't have? 

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...you're priests need to have a good working knowledge of eastern rite.

Why?  Just a few lines above, you argued that the Western rite should have only one "liturgy", and now you require Western rite clergy "to have a good working knowledge" of another "liturgy".  This must make sense in your head somehow, so please explain it to me.   

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And there must be some way to make sure that at the least your priesthood and deaconate want to be western rite orthodox and aren't just using this as a way to remain RC or Episcopalian while either being married or just wanting to be part of a legitimate or conservative church.

Again, I look forward to the Eastern rite horror stories thread if that's really what you want. 
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Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline Branthony

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Re: purpose
« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2015, 11:47:37 PM »
I'm done with this, I still see no point to the western rite and doubt I'll ever be convinced. You all get your feelings hurt very fast about it. Just know, I am not a minority, there are a lol of eastern rite folks that feel the same way I do, including priests. Heck the O.C.A. Doesn't even have western rite. My point about needing to follow the same fasting rules as eastern rite (by the way I don't know what you mean that all eastern rite folks don't follow the same rules. We do) and the poisonous western rite parishes and stuff was because folks object to your exsistatce so you have to work harder than eastern rite people do. If something is out of place, people will find it because they are looking for reasons you shouldn't exist. It's just something to think about.  As far as your clergy needing to know eastern rite, all R.O.C.O.R. Western rite clergy already are required to know eastern rite. That came from metropolitan Hilarion. You guys are the minority, if our parishes are to worship together, you have to know eastern rite, it would be unfair and impossible to expect eastern rite clergy to know western rite since there are so many different versions of it. Anyway, luckily for you all, I doubt I will be the person to decide if western rite continues to be a thing or not so your safe for now.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 11:50:37 PM by Branthony »
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: purpose
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2015, 11:52:36 PM »
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: purpose
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2015, 12:13:36 AM »
I'm done with this, I still see no point to the western rite and doubt I'll ever be convinced. You all get your feelings hurt very fast about it.

Projecting much? 

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Just know, I am not a minority, there are a lol of eastern rite folks that feel the same way I do, including priests.

Whether you're a minority or not, I am aware of the existence of Eastern rite critics of the Western rite.  Some of them even make intelligent arguments.  I don't think you've brought anything like that to the table.   

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Heck the O.C.A. Doesn't even have western rite.

I didn't realise that something was not worth having if the OCA doesn't have it.  Kinda puts a new spin on the whole autocephaly debate. 

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My point about needing to follow the same fasting rules as eastern rite (by the way I don't know what you mean that all eastern rite folks don't follow the same rules. We do)

What are the Eastern rite fasting rules that "all eastern rite folks...do" follow? 

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...and the poisonous western rite parishes and stuff

Totally objective analysis. 

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...was because folks object to your exsistatce so you have to work harder than eastern rite people do. If something is out of place, people will find it because they are looking for reasons you shouldn't exist. It's just something to think about. 

So the Western rite has to follow Eastern fasting rules in order to stay Western rite because there are Eastern critics who want it to disappear.  But if they follow that to its logical conclusion, the Western rite will disappear entirely.  Is that your plan?  One way or another, the Western rite must die?

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As far as your clergy needing to know eastern rite, all R.O.C.O.R. Western rite clergy already are required to know eastern rite. That came from metropolitan Hilarion.

Who are you talking to?  I'm Eastern rite, more so than you.  My rite is the mother of yours.

Anyway, if ROCOR requires its Western rite clergy to know the Eastern rite, that's an internal matter of theirs.  My question still stands.  Why do you think Western rite clergy should learn the Eastern rite when you already want to limit the number of Western rites they are familiar with?  You want to prohibit those who know how to drive cars from driving trucks and buses while requiring them to know how to fly a space shuttle.   

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You guys are the minority, if our parishes are to worship together, you have to know eastern rite, it would be unfair and impossible to expect eastern rite clergy to know western rite since there are so many different versions of it.

If there are so many different versions of "Western rite", why do you speak of it in the singular? 

I think you are exaggerating.  If someone is trained to celebrate the traditional Roman rite, they can open the books of the Ambrosian rite or the Book of Common Prayer and figure it out fairly easily.  They may have to keep their eyes glued to the book the first few times to make sure they're carrying out the rubrics faithfully, but that's every "Eastern rite" priest celebrating the first few Presanctifieds of Lent.  Or maybe you think Eastern riters should eliminate the Presanctified Liturgy and celebrate a St Basil or St John Liturgy like real men.   

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Anyway, luckily for you all, I doubt I will be the person to decide if western rite continues to be a thing or not so your safe for now.

I don't worship in the Western rite.  But you "go on with your bad self". 
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 12:16:12 AM by Mor Ephrem »
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Offline Branthony

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Re: purpose
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2015, 12:25:57 AM »
What ever, I'm done with this. I think western rite is ridiculous, not that it actually matters, arguing on here about anything is pointless no matter if it's western rite, the O.C.A. Or toll houses we get nowhere. From now on I'm going to stay away from anything that could be controversial. Mor Ephrem you seem to pop up a lot. I'm guessing your just here to stir the pot not to actually be helpful. Anyway I don't care, the western rite is so small it shouldn't affect me.
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Online Justin Kissel

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Re: purpose
« Reply #52 on: March 26, 2015, 12:27:51 AM »
I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be mean... I just don't understand... I don't understand why we need to dress up and play pretend. to what end do we pretend... I... I'm... it seemed to me... everyone seems to be there hiding from something... I'm not trying to be mean, I'm not I just don't see...

...my point... I'm sorry if I upset you... my intention... I...

...I like... I can ...my... I don't know....

...I want...

...that's my problem, you...

...this went just as I expected... typical... disobedience... there is no humility.

...apparently I was rude, I must admit that I go into this with prejudices already... I... I would hope... I

(parts related to the car accident not included since they are not related to the topic or the point I'm making...)

...I'm going to try... I... I do not understand... I... I... I found... I went... I love... I do not see... I find ... I would say... I... I know... I just don't understand ...I'm sorry if this one sounds offensive... I tried to ask with out letting my prejudices show through... I may have failed...

...I... I don't think... I think...I would like... I know... I feel...

I'm done... I still see no point... doubt I'll ever be convinced... I am not... feel the same way I do... My point... I don't know what you mean... poisonous... stuff... I doubt I will be the person to decide if western rite continues to be a thing or not so your safe for now...

...I'm done... I think... ridiculous... I'm... I'm guessing... I don't care... it shouldn't affect me.
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: purpose
« Reply #53 on: March 26, 2015, 02:19:27 AM »
I'm done with this, I still see no point to the western rite and doubt I'll ever be convinced.
Come here with your mind closed, and you might as well have not bothered going through the charade of asking questions. You never wanted an answer to begin with. You just wanted to hear yourself talk.

You all get your feelings hurt very fast about it.
Remember what I said about reaping what you sow? You came here butthurt and sowing the weeds of rancor. Why are you surprised that rancor is what you got? Do you not think for one moment that if you had come here putting into practice the advice I gave you on how to ask your questions without ruffling feathers that you would have actually received the responses you wanted and not the responses you feared?

Just know, I am not a minority, there are a lol of eastern rite folks that feel the same way I do, including priests. Heck the O.C.A. Doesn't even have western rite.
I don't doubt that, but they also know the Western Rite much better than you. I don't mind reading someone's opposition to the Western Rite if it's well-educated and shows a real knowledge of the Western Rite and of what niche it strives to fill. Show that you know what you're talking about and I will listen to what you have to say, even if I disagree with it. Hell, you might even convince me to take your side. Show that you don't know the first thing about what you're railing against, though, and I'll tell you to go away and come back when you've actually read up on the subject and can argue with REAL facts and REAL data. I enjoy sparring with the intelligent, not fighting with the ignorant.

My point about needing to follow the same fasting rules as eastern rite (by the way I don't know what you mean that all eastern rite folks don't follow the same rules. We do) and the poisonous western rite parishes and stuff was because folks object to your exsistatce so you have to work harder than eastern rite people do. If something is out of place, people will find it because they are looking for reasons you shouldn't exist. It's just something to think about.  As far as your clergy needing to know eastern rite, all R.O.C.O.R. Western rite clergy already are required to know eastern rite. That came from metropolitan Hilarion. You guys are the minority, if our parishes are to worship together, you have to know eastern rite, it would be unfair and impossible to expect eastern rite clergy to know western rite since there are so many different versions of it. Anyway, luckily for you all, I doubt I will be the person to decide if western rite continues to be a thing or not so your safe for now.
We're not Western Rite, so save your plural "you" for those who are.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 02:30:32 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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Offline PeterTheAleut

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Re: purpose
« Reply #54 on: March 26, 2015, 02:25:37 AM »
What ever, I'm done with this. I think western rite is ridiculous, not that it actually matters, arguing on here about anything is pointless no matter if it's western rite, the O.C.A. Or toll houses we get nowhere. From now on I'm going to stay away from anything that could be controversial.
I'm sorry, but the way you post, you bring the controversy with you. If you go, the controversy will only follow you. You'll never get away from it, for wherever you go, there it will be.

Mor Ephrem you seem to pop up a lot. I'm guessing your just here to stir the pot not to actually be helpful.
Mor projection? Actually, Mor is trying to help. He just doesn't have much tolerance for your foolish way of speaking.

Anyway I don't care, the western rite is so small it shouldn't affect me.
Then why are you here ranting and railing against it?
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Offline Sleeper

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Re: purpose
« Reply #55 on: March 26, 2015, 01:59:25 PM »
Asking what point Western Orthodoxy serves is like asking what purpose trees serve. Trees are part of nature and happen without "doing" anything. Western Orthodoxy just is. It was a naturally occurring part of undivided Christianity for centuries, and so it is again. It's not something that gets "done" or has a "point" beyond simply being the historically western expression of classical catholic Christianity. People may not like it, but it has been a natural part of Orthodoxy in the West for generations now, and will continue to be so. There's not much more to it than that, much as people would like there to be. In all my experiences of the WR I've seen no drama or politicking; rather I've seen faithful Christians living out their Orthodox lives under the same guidance and shepherding as every ER parish. By the same bishops too.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: purpose
« Reply #56 on: March 26, 2015, 04:51:24 PM »
What ever, I'm done with this.

You were done before you started. 

You don't know the first thing about the thing you don't like (i.e., the Western rite), nor can you answer questions put to you about the thing you like and champion (i.e., the Eastern rite).  You could've saved yourself a lot of trouble by posting "I hate the Western rite" in "Random Postings" in "Other Topics" to get it off your chest without much discussion. 

Instead, you start a thread giving the impression that you want to discuss the issue and then whine when it doesn't go your way.  So is the problem really the Western rite or the poisonous parishes or the substandard clergy or OCNet or Mor Ephrem or whatever?

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I think western rite is ridiculous, not that it actually matters...

You're right, it doesn't matter.  I think the Byzantine rite can be quite ridiculous now and then, but it works within the Church.  And, when it is within the Church, so does the Western rite. 

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arguing on here about anything is pointless no matter if it's western rite, the O.C.A. Or toll houses we get nowhere.

That's a fair observation in some respects.  But I would ask you (on top of all the other questions I've asked which you steadfastly refuse to answer) where you wanted to go in this discussion.  It may have been silly of me, but I thought you actually wanted to have a reasonable conversation about this topic with people who may or may not agree with your views.  It seems what you really wanted was to engage in some anti-Western rite intellectual self-pleasuring with strangers on the internet.       

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From now on I'm going to stay away from anything that could be controversial.


To avoid further embarrassment, that might be best. 

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Mor Ephrem you seem to pop up a lot.

Yeah, that prayer really does pop up a lot this time of year.

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I'm guessing your just here to stir the pot not to actually be helpful.

I try to be helpful, but I need something to work with.  You gave us nothing.  No solid reasons for your opposition to the Western rite, just "I don't like it, it's dumb".  No understanding of previous posts which tried to explain matters to you.  No questions from you about those posts for us to answer.  No answers to questions put to you.  Nothing but emotional, vehement opposition to a ritual for celebrating the sacraments and common prayer that is not the same as yours but is nevertheless part of your Church's wider tradition.   

Quote
Anyway I don't care, the western rite is so small it shouldn't affect me.

If something so inconsequential can rile you up as much as you are in this thread, what happens to you when something actually matters? 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: purpose
« Reply #57 on: March 26, 2015, 04:53:14 PM »
I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be mean... I just don't understand... I don't understand why we need to dress up and play pretend. to what end do we pretend... I... I'm... it seemed to me... everyone seems to be there hiding from something... I'm not trying to be mean, I'm not I just don't see...

...my point... I'm sorry if I upset you... my intention... I...

...I like... I can ...my... I don't know....

...I want...

...that's my problem, you...

...this went just as I expected... typical... disobedience... there is no humility.

...apparently I was rude, I must admit that I go into this with prejudices already... I... I would hope... I

(parts related to the car accident not included since they are not related to the topic or the point I'm making...)

...I'm going to try... I... I do not understand... I... I... I found... I went... I love... I do not see... I find ... I would say... I... I know... I just don't understand ...I'm sorry if this one sounds offensive... I tried to ask with out letting my prejudices show through... I may have failed...

...I... I don't think... I think...I would like... I know... I feel...

I'm done... I still see no point... doubt I'll ever be convinced... I am not... feel the same way I do... My point... I don't know what you mean... poisonous... stuff... I doubt I will be the person to decide if western rite continues to be a thing or not so your safe for now...

...I'm done... I think... ridiculous... I'm... I'm guessing... I don't care... it shouldn't affect me.

Don't pick on branthony, Justin.  As I highlighted above, you also use the first person singular liberally. 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: purpose
« Reply #58 on: March 26, 2015, 04:56:06 PM »
Actually, Mor is trying to help. He just doesn't have much tolerance for your foolish way of speaking.

When you're right, you're right. 
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: purpose
« Reply #59 on: March 26, 2015, 04:58:56 PM »
Asking what point Western Orthodoxy serves is like asking what purpose trees serve. Trees are part of nature and happen without "doing" anything. Western Orthodoxy just is.

What an interesting concept.  ;)
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.


Online Justin Kissel

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Re: purpose
« Reply #60 on: March 26, 2015, 05:04:27 PM »
Don't pick on branthony, Justin.

Didn't mean to be picking on him...
We all have an El Guapo to face. Be brave, and fight like lions!

Form a 'brute squad' then!

Offline Branthony

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Re: purpose
« Reply #61 on: March 28, 2015, 09:18:38 AM »
Ok this really will be my last post on this thread. First let me say I'm sorry. I was a jerk and I should not have been. Let me give you some background on my feelings. A little while ago I randomly found a western rite parish near me. My wife and I decided to visit just to see what western rite is like, no interest in becoming western rite just curiosity, but also no ill feelings. When we arrived they said that they where trying to learn eastern rite but had no support, our parish reached out to them to help them. Later they offered to help my wife and me, we did not know this help came with some pretty steep conditions. We where not comfortable in there parish however and asked the priests blessing to go to an eastern rite parish, we received a blessing however the parish now is doing there best to upset our lives. This parish only has 4 adults and it is very obvious that none of them believe in western rite but are there for nefarious reasons or because they are hiding from mainstream Orthodoxy. I projected the abuses of this parish on all western rite parishes. However after some reflection I realized that this parish isn't western rite orthodox in fact it isn't a Christian parish eastern or western rite. I must admit I have experienced one other western rite service and I didn't like it either, however this in no way means that western rite is irrelevant or invalid. It is just not for me. I go to an eastern rite Russian parish, Greek style eastern rite isn't for me either but I don't think they need to go away so I must remember that in reference to western rite as well. Just because it isn't for me doesn't mean it's bad. It was just easy for me to vilify western rite because of the abuses my family suffered at the hands of this cult pretending to be western rite orthodox. So please forgive me.
Forgive me if I misspell something, I am dyslexic and it greatly effects my spelling.

Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re: purpose
« Reply #62 on: March 28, 2015, 09:20:54 AM »
:)
"Do not tempt the Mor thy Mod."

Mor no longer posts on OCNet.  He follows threads, posts his responses daily, occasionally starts threads, and responds to private messages when and as he wants.  But he really isn't around anymore.