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Author Topic: Blessing of a novice nun of the Columban Rule  (Read 5309 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: February 14, 2011, 06:03:24 AM »

The Rite which will be used by Abbot Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) next Sunday for the Blessing of a novice nun of the Columban Rule.

Let us pray for this Sister.

http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/ee-life-giving-spring-house/


BLESSING OF A NOVICE

Presenter:  Father Abbot, I present to you _________ who desires the life of the angels.

Fr. Abbot:  _____________, is it true, do you desire to enter the life of the angels?

Candidate:  I do.

Fr. Abbot:  Why do you desire this life?

Candidate:  It is the life that will lead me to Christ and to His promises.

Fr. Abbot:  Will you faithfully follow the precepts of Christ who is your Master?

Candidate:  I will.

Fr. Abbot:  Will you live chastely, in the rule of our Father Colum Cille?

Candidate:  I will so live, the Lord being my helper.

Fr. Abbot:  Will you give your obedience to me, your Superior?

Candidate:  I will, the Lord being my helper.

Fr. Abbot:  Lord, we present to Thee ___________ who has indicated his desire to live according to the life of the angels.  We pray that Thou wilt accept this Thy humble, sinful servant, that he may try his vocation to the life, and that he may be aided to lead a life of purity and solemnity as may befit his to come further towards Thee and to so align his will with Thy will that she may become at one with you.  We pray this through Jesus Christ, Who liveth and reigneth with Thee and the Holy Ghost, One God world without end. Amen.

O God the Father, fount and source of all goodness, Who moved by Thy loving kindness, didst will Thine only-begotten Son to descend to us in this lower world and to become incarnate amongst us, we beseech Thee never to forsake this Thy servant _______ in all his searching and struggles, forgive all his sins and negligences, that he may serve Thee the only true God with pure heart and chaste body.  We pray this through Jesus Christ, Who liveth and reigneth with Thee and the Holy Ghost, One God world without end. Amen.

O Lord Who ordereth the lives of those who seek to follow Thee, and who sendeth Thine Angels to assist Thy faithful servants, we pray that Thou wouldst send _______ an angelic helper who will guide him throughout his struggles with the adversary and his cohorts, so that he may emerge triumphant at the last day and be accounted one of Thy faithful servants. We pray this through Jesus Christ, Who liveth and reigneth with Thee and the Holy Ghost, One God world without end. Amen.

___________,  I bless thee now in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.  Go thou now and lead the life of one who aspires to the angelic life, be attentive to the Rule of our Father Colum Cille and accept the guidance of your Superior in thine ascent towards Christ.
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« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2011, 08:16:38 AM »

Which prayer book did this Columban novice rite come from?   Is Fr. Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) the Abbott of the St. Columban Order as well as a hieromonk in the St. Petroc Monastery?
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« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2011, 07:40:25 PM »

Which prayer book did this Columban novice rite come from?   Is Fr. Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) the Abbott of the St. Columban Order as well as a hieromonk in the St. Petroc Monastery?
Does it matter?
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« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2011, 07:51:33 PM »

Which prayer book did this Columban novice rite come from?   Is Fr. Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) the Abbott of the St. Columban Order as well as a hieromonk in the St. Petroc Monastery?
Does it matter?

I would say that it matters to the lady who is going to be made a novice this weekend.   If Father Abbot is not in fact an Abbot, then the obedience which he, as Abbot, requires of her as part of the Rite and the obedience which she promises him is meaningless since he has no authority to make such a request for her obedience.

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« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2011, 08:03:19 PM »

Which prayer book did this Columban novice rite come from?   Is Fr. Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) the Abbott of the St. Columban Order as well as a hieromonk in the St. Petroc Monastery?
Does it matter?

I would say that it matters to the lady who is going to be made a novice this weekend.   If Father Abbot is not in fact an Abbot, then the obedience which he, as Abbot, requires of her as part of the Rite and the obedience which she promises him is meaningless since he has no authority to make such a request for her obedience.
Isn't that an issue for your Bishop to determine?
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« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2011, 08:11:26 PM »

Which prayer book did this Columban novice rite come from?   Is Fr. Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) the Abbott of the St. Columban Order as well as a hieromonk in the St. Petroc Monastery?
Does it matter?

I would say that it matters to the lady who is going to be made a novice this weekend.   If Father Abbot is not in fact an Abbot, then the obedience which he, as Abbot, requires of her as part of the Rite and the obedience which she promises him is meaningless since he has no authority to make such a request for her obedience.
Isn't that an issue for your Bishop to determine?

The bishop has so determined.  The matter was referred to him last Saturday by a senior priest of the Western Rite.
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« Reply #6 on: February 14, 2011, 08:20:36 PM »

Which prayer book did this Columban novice rite come from?   Is Fr. Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) the Abbott of the St. Columban Order as well as a hieromonk in the St. Petroc Monastery?
Does it matter?

I would say that it matters to the lady who is going to be made a novice this weekend.   If Father Abbot is not in fact an Abbot, then the obedience which he, as Abbot, requires of her as part of the Rite and the obedience which she promises him is meaningless since he has no authority to make such a request for her obedience.
Isn't that an issue for your Bishop to determine?

The bishop has so determined.  The matter was referred to him last Saturday by a senior priest of the Western Rite.

And what was the outcome of what your Bishop determined?
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« Reply #7 on: February 14, 2011, 08:28:56 PM »

Which prayer book did this Columban novice rite come from?   Is Fr. Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) the Abbott of the St. Columban Order as well as a hieromonk in the St. Petroc Monastery?
Does it matter?

I would say that it matters to the lady who is going to be made a novice this weekend.   If Father Abbot is not in fact an Abbot, then the obedience which he, as Abbot, requires of her as part of the Rite and the obedience which she promises him is meaningless since he has no authority to make such a request for her obedience.
Isn't that an issue for your Bishop to determine?

The bishop has so determined.  The matter was referred to him last Saturday by a senior priest of the Western Rite.

And what was the outcome of what your Bishop determined?

The episcopal determination was received a little over 48 hours ago.   I am not aware of what has taken place in the interim.
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« Reply #8 on: February 14, 2011, 08:33:12 PM »

Which prayer book did this Columban novice rite come from?   Is Fr. Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) the Abbott of the St. Columban Order as well as a hieromonk in the St. Petroc Monastery?
Does it matter?

I would say that it matters to the lady who is going to be made a novice this weekend.   If Father Abbot is not in fact an Abbot, then the obedience which he, as Abbot, requires of her as part of the Rite and the obedience which she promises him is meaningless since he has no authority to make such a request for her obedience.
Isn't that an issue for your Bishop to determine?

The bishop has so determined.  The matter was referred to him last Saturday by a senior priest of the Western Rite.

And what was the outcome of what your Bishop determined?

The episcopal determination was received a little over 48 hours ago.   I am not aware of what has taken place in the interim.
So do you know what that determination was or not?
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« Reply #9 on: February 14, 2011, 08:37:26 PM »

Which prayer book did this Columban novice rite come from?   Is Fr. Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) the Abbott of the St. Columban Order as well as a hieromonk in the St. Petroc Monastery?
Does it matter?

I would say that it matters to the lady who is going to be made a novice this weekend.   If Father Abbot is not in fact an Abbot, then the obedience which he, as Abbot, requires of her as part of the Rite and the obedience which she promises him is meaningless since he has no authority to make such a request for her obedience.
Isn't that an issue for your Bishop to determine?

The bishop has so determined.  The matter was referred to him last Saturday by a senior priest of the Western Rite.

And what was the outcome of what your Bishop determined?

The episcopal determination was received a little over 48 hours ago.   I am not aware of what has taken place in the interim.
So do you know what that determination was or not?

Yes.
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« Reply #10 on: February 14, 2011, 08:39:12 PM »

The Rite which will be used by Abbot Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) next Sunday for the Blessing of a novice nun of the Columban Rule.

Let us pray for this Sister.

http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/ee-life-giving-spring-house/


BLESSING OF A NOVICE

Presenter:  Father Abbot, I present to you _________ who desires the life of the angels.

Fr. Abbot:  _____________, is it true, do you desire to enter the life of the angels?

Candidate:  I do.

Fr. Abbot:  Why do you desire this life?

Candidate:  It is the life that will lead me to Christ and to His promises.

Fr. Abbot:  Will you faithfully follow the precepts of Christ who is your Master?

Candidate:  I will.

Fr. Abbot:  Will you live chastely, in the rule of our Father Colum Cille?

Candidate:  I will so live, the Lord being my helper.

Fr. Abbot:  Will you give your obedience to me, your Superior?

Candidate:  I will, the Lord being my helper.

Fr. Abbot:  Lord, we present to Thee ___________ who has indicated his desire to live according to the life of the angels.  We pray that Thou wilt accept this Thy humble, sinful servant, that he may try his vocation to the life, and that he may be aided to lead a life of purity and solemnity as may befit his to come further towards Thee and to so align his will with Thy will that she may become at one with you.  We pray this through Jesus Christ, Who liveth and reigneth with Thee and the Holy Ghost, One God world without end. Amen.

O God the Father, fount and source of all goodness, Who moved by Thy loving kindness, didst will Thine only-begotten Son to descend to us in this lower world and to become incarnate amongst us, we beseech Thee never to forsake this Thy servant _______ in all his searching and struggles, forgive all his sins and negligences, that he may serve Thee the only true God with pure heart and chaste body.  We pray this through Jesus Christ, Who liveth and reigneth with Thee and the Holy Ghost, One God world without end. Amen.

O Lord Who ordereth the lives of those who seek to follow Thee, and who sendeth Thine Angels to assist Thy faithful servants, we pray that Thou wouldst send _______ an angelic helper who will guide him throughout his struggles with the adversary and his cohorts, so that he may emerge triumphant at the last day and be accounted one of Thy faithful servants. We pray this through Jesus Christ, Who liveth and reigneth with Thee and the Holy Ghost, One God world without end. Amen.

___________,  I bless thee now in the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost.  Go thou now and lead the life of one who aspires to the angelic life, be attentive to the Rule of our Father Colum Cille and accept the guidance of your Superior in thine ascent towards Christ.

This rite appears to be the rite of the making of a male postulant as it does not contain any clothing prayers for the blessing of the novice's habit.  In regard to the Abbott issue, I have not seen a Ukaze issued by ROCOR or Fr. Michael( Mansbridge-Wood/Wood) making him an Abbott or a claim by him to be an Abbott.
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« Reply #11 on: February 14, 2011, 08:44:45 PM »

This rite appears to be the rite of the making of a male postulant as it does not contain any clothing prayers for the blessing of the novice's habit.

The wording is messy and confuses sexes...

"may befit his to come further towards Thee and to so align his will with Thy will that she may become at one with you.

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« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2011, 08:50:34 PM »

  In regard to the Abbott issue, I have not seen a Ukaze issued by ROCOR or Fr. Michael( Mansbridge-Wood/Wood) making him an Abbott
or a claim by him to be an Abbott.

Father Abbot Michael is clear enough on his new website...


"The Hermitage [St George, New Mexico] is a hermitage of Saint Petroc
Monastery whose Abbot is Fr. Michael."

http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/hermitage-of-saint-george-america/

However this claim to the rank of Abbot has since been denied by New York.
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« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2011, 08:57:01 PM »

Father Bless!

It is very interesting that Father Michael uses a title which has been denied by New York. Who is it in New York that gave your this information? Do you have some kind of official report or letter from New York? Hopefully we can clear this up quickly because the thought of someone claiming to be an Abbot when they are not is frightening...
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« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2011, 09:14:41 PM »

Somebody just contacted me to say that the website of Fr Michael has just been altered and the statement that he is an Abbot has been removed.  Probably at the intervention of the Church authorities?  Did Fr Michael make the claim in a moment of confusion?
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« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2011, 09:28:06 PM »

Huh
hmmm....I see it still listed here

http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/st-petroc-monastery/

 Saint Petroc Monastery is composed of two separate semi-eremitic houses, each occupied by a Hieromonk and overseen by an Abbot (Fr. Michael) and a Saint George Hermitage  overseen by a Prior (Fr Joshua).



Another interesting link for you:
http://www.theorthodoxchurch.org/docs/Saint_Colman_UK.pdf

It appears that the Shorter St. Colman prayer book you had wished to acquire is now available online...even more interesting is that is it available from the website of The Fraternity of St Gregory the Great. It appears that the Western Rite ROCOR groups were quite productive in their meeting? The assistants are listed on this link at the bottom: http://www.theorthodoxchurch.org/westernrite.htm
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« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2011, 09:34:15 PM »

Huh
hmmm....I see it still listed here

http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/st-petroc-monastery/

 Saint Petroc Monastery is composed of two separate semi-eremitic houses, each occupied by a Hieromonk and overseen by an Abbot (Fr. Michael) and a Saint George Hermitage  overseen by a Prior (Fr Joshua).


Yes, you are right.

The claim to be an Abbot has been removed from one page but retained on another.

What an extraordinary breach of good order when a monk makes such a claim for himself when his bishops deny it!!  Words fail me.  That this should be happening in the Russian Church Abroad is astounding; it is renowned for keeping good canonical order in its ranks.
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« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2011, 09:36:47 PM »

 In regard to the Abbott issue, I have not seen a Ukaze issued by ROCOR or Fr. Michael( Mansbridge-Wood/Wood) making him an Abbott
or a claim by him to be an Abbott.

Father Abbot Michael is clear enough on his new website...


"The Hermitage [St George, New Mexico] is a hermitage of Saint Petroc
Monastery whose Abbot is Fr. Michael."However this claim to the rank of Abbot has since been denied by New York.


Yes the mention of Abbott is no longer present, and I did not see the entry you note as deleted.. If the "St. George Hermitage of St. Petroc Monastery" is a dependency indeed of St. Petroc Monastery, what is the hierarchical relationship between Prior Joshua and Hieromonk Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) who if not a Father Abbott, is the undoubted Superior of St. Petroc Monastery?  

Perhaps the honorific "Dom", short for "Dominus" would be an appropriate honorific, an appropriate reward for missionary endeavour in Australia, New Zealand, the United Kingdom and his other dependencies including the Netherlands and Singapore.

I note from the St. Petroc super-site in relation to the Mission of St. Seraphim WR Singapore": This mission comes under the guidance of Saint Petroc Monastery.  It is headed by Fr Raphael and holds its services in the Armenian church in Singapore"

References:

http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/south-east-asia-missions/
://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/hermitage-of-saint-george-america/


The St. Petroc Monastery missionary jurisdiction has a Ukaze covering missionary endeavour in Australia, New Zealand (no missions), and the United Kingdom. Given that the Ukaze does not provide for the priests and people of the Philippines, Singapore and the Netherlands, are these missions under their diocesan?  Given that Korea and Indonesia are part of the Australian and New Zealand Diocese of ROCOR, blessed to have the Metropolitan & First Hierarch also as Archbishop, do these other nations also come under his omophorion?  The Netherlands is surely part of Geneva and Western Europe?

Neither the mission of Fr. Raphael in Singapore or Fr. Janel in the Philippines or St. Swithbert Monastery Mission and Fr. Gregory in the Netherlands - all dependencies of St. Petroc Monastery and presumably subordinate to the Superior Hieromonk Michael (Mansbridge-Wood) appear listed on any ROCOR diocesan listing.  The Western European Diocese has no parishes in the Netherlands at all. 

With missions from Europe, the UK to the Far East and his native Australia, one cannot but admire the efforts of the Superior of St. Petroc Monastery to travel far and wide to seek to plant WR Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2011, 10:05:47 PM »

Huh
hmmm....I see it still listed here

http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/st-petroc-monastery/

 Saint Petroc Monastery is composed of two separate semi-eremitic houses, each occupied by a Hieromonk and overseen by an Abbot (Fr. Michael) and a Saint George Hermitage  overseen by a Prior (Fr Joshua).


In relation to my post questioning how the relationship works between Hieromonk Michael (Mansbridge-Woods) and his dependent Prior, Fr. Joshua, you have answered my question with this posting in relation to the position of Fr. Michael as Father Abbott of the St. Petroc Monastery incorporating the St. George Hermitage (Priory) and dependent missions in the UK, Australia, Netherlands, Singapore, the Philippines and New Zealand (no active mission).

I see that Fr. Barry Jeffery has been appointed head of the Petrochian dependency of St. Dyfan University Mission in Hobart :"This mission was founded in 1993 and is
based in the university in Hobart, meeting on Sunday mornings at 10.30 in the university chapel.  It is headed by Fr. Barry Jefferies and has a core congregation of university staff members and their families as well as some students." http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/south-east-asia-missions/

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« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2011, 10:30:00 PM »

  In regard to the Abbott issue, I have not seen a Ukaze issued by ROCOR or Fr. Michael( Mansbridge-Wood/Wood) making him an Abbott
or a claim by him to be an Abbott.

Father Abbot Michael is clear enough on his new website...


"The Hermitage [St George, New Mexico] is a hermitage of Saint Petroc
Monastery whose Abbot is Fr. Michael."

http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/hermitage-of-saint-george-america/

However this claim to the rank of Abbot has since been denied by New York.

The link says that the Prior is Fr. Joshua. You need to learn to take screen shots.
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« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2011, 10:40:44 PM »

  In regard to the Abbott issue, I have not seen a Ukaze issued by ROCOR or Fr. Michael( Mansbridge-Wood/Wood) making him an Abbott
or a claim by him to be an Abbott.

Father Abbot Michael is clear enough on his new website...


"The Hermitage [St George, New Mexico] is a hermitage of Saint Petroc
Monastery whose Abbot is Fr. Michael."

http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/hermitage-of-saint-george-america/

However this claim to the rank of Abbot has since been denied by New York.

The link says that the Prior is Fr. Joshua. You need to learn to take screen shots.

I gave the sentence in its original form at

http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/hermitage-of-saint-george-america/

It has been altered.

The claim to be an Abbot is still being propagated on another page of the website
http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/st-petroc-monastery/

"Saint Petroc Monastery is composed of two separate semi-eremitic houses,
each occupied by a Hieromonk and overseen by an Abbot (Fr. Michael)
and a Saint George Hermitage  overseen by a Prior (Fr Joshua)."

Screen shots have been taken by other people.  I don't know how.


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« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2011, 11:21:19 PM »

 In regard to the Abbott issue, I have not seen a Ukaze issued by ROCOR or Fr. Michael( Mansbridge-Wood/Wood) making him an Abbott
or a claim by him to be an Abbott.

Father Abbot Michael is clear enough on his new website...


"The Hermitage [St George, New Mexico] is a hermitage of Saint Petroc
Monastery whose Abbot is Fr. Michael."

http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/hermitage-of-saint-george-america/

However this claim to the rank of Abbot has since been denied by New York.

The link says that the Prior is Fr. Joshua. You need to learn to take screen shots.

I gave the sentence in its original form at

http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/hermitage-of-saint-george-america/

It has been altered.

The claim to be an Abbot is still being propagated on another page of the website
http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/st-petroc-monastery/

"Saint Petroc Monastery is composed of two separate semi-eremitic houses,
each occupied by a Hieromonk and overseen by an Abbot (Fr. Michael)
and a Saint George Hermitage  overseen by a Prior (Fr Joshua)."

Screen shots have been taken by other people.  I don't know how.



But isn't that what the Australian and NZ ROCOR website also says?
http://www.rocor.org.au/?page_id=2
http://directory.stinnocentpress.com/viewparish.cgi?Uid=321&lang=en

Here's a webshot:

« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 11:28:51 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

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« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2011, 11:30:08 PM »

  In regard to the Abbott issue, I have not seen a Ukaze issued by ROCOR or Fr. Michael( Mansbridge-Wood/Wood) making him an Abbott
or a claim by him to be an Abbott.

Father Abbot Michael is clear enough on his new website...


"The Hermitage [St George, New Mexico] is a hermitage of Saint Petroc
Monastery whose Abbot is Fr. Michael."

http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/hermitage-of-saint-george-america/

However this claim to the rank of Abbot has since been denied by New York.

The link says that the Prior is Fr. Joshua. You need to learn to take screen shots.

I gave the sentence in its original form at

http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/hermitage-of-saint-george-america/

It has been altered.

The claim to be an Abbot is still being propagated on another page of the website
http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/st-petroc-monastery/

"Saint Petroc Monastery is composed of two separate semi-eremitic houses,
each occupied by a Hieromonk and overseen by an Abbot (Fr. Michael)
and a Saint George Hermitage  overseen by a Prior (Fr Joshua)."

Screen shots have been taken by other people.  I don't know how.



But isn't that what the Australian and NZ ROCOR website also says?
http://www.rocor.org.au/?page_id=2
http://directory.stinnocentpress.com/viewparish.cgi?Uid=321&lang=en

I am not with you, George.  The website does not say "Abbot Michael (Mansbridge-Wood)"  It says "Hieromonk Michael (Mansbridge-Wood)"
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« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2011, 11:33:17 PM »

  In regard to the Abbott issue, I have not seen a Ukaze issued by ROCOR or Fr. Michael( Mansbridge-Wood/Wood) making him an Abbott
or a claim by him to be an Abbott.

Father Abbot Michael is clear enough on his new website...


"The Hermitage [St George, New Mexico] is a hermitage of Saint Petroc
Monastery whose Abbot is Fr. Michael."

http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/hermitage-of-saint-george-america/

However this claim to the rank of Abbot has since been denied by New York.

The link says that the Prior is Fr. Joshua. You need to learn to take screen shots.

I gave the sentence in its original form at

http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/hermitage-of-saint-george-america/

It has been altered.

The claim to be an Abbot is still being propagated on another page of the website
http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/st-petroc-monastery/

"Saint Petroc Monastery is composed of two separate semi-eremitic houses,
each occupied by a Hieromonk and overseen by an Abbot (Fr. Michael)
and a Saint George Hermitage  overseen by a Prior (Fr Joshua)."

Screen shots have been taken by other people.  I don't know how.



But isn't that what the Australian and NZ ROCOR website also says?
http://www.rocor.org.au/?page_id=2
http://directory.stinnocentpress.com/viewparish.cgi?Uid=321&lang=en

I am not with you, George.  The website does not say "Abbot Michael (Mansbridge-Wood)"  It says "Hieromonk Michael (Mansbridge-Wood)"
Check the webshot. The last line says "The Superior is Hieromonk Michael".
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« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2011, 11:38:15 PM »

  In regard to the Abbott issue, I have not seen a Ukaze issued by ROCOR or Fr. Michael( Mansbridge-Wood/Wood) making him an Abbott
or a claim by him to be an Abbott.

Father Abbot Michael is clear enough on his new website...


"The Hermitage [St George, New Mexico] is a hermitage of Saint Petroc
Monastery whose Abbot is Fr. Michael."

http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/hermitage-of-saint-george-america/

However this claim to the rank of Abbot has since been denied by New York.

The link says that the Prior is Fr. Joshua. You need to learn to take screen shots.

I gave the sentence in its original form at

http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/hermitage-of-saint-george-america/

It has been altered.

The claim to be an Abbot is still being propagated on another page of the website
http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/st-petroc-monastery/

"Saint Petroc Monastery is composed of two separate semi-eremitic houses,
each occupied by a Hieromonk and overseen by an Abbot (Fr. Michael)
and a Saint George Hermitage  overseen by a Prior (Fr Joshua)."

Screen shots have been taken by other people.  I don't know how.



But isn't that what the Australian and NZ ROCOR website also says?
http://www.rocor.org.au/?page_id=2
http://directory.stinnocentpress.com/viewparish.cgi?Uid=321&lang=en

I am not with you, George.  The website does not say "Abbot Michael (Mansbridge-Wood)"  It says "Hieromonk Michael (Mansbridge-Wood)"
Check the webshot. The last line says "The Superior is Hieromonk Michael".


I am not familiar with the terminology used in all the Orthodox Churches but "Superior" does not mean "Abbot" in the Russian Church.  His own bishop has denied that he is an Abbot two days ago.
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« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2011, 11:42:10 PM »

  In regard to the Abbott issue, I have not seen a Ukaze issued by ROCOR or Fr. Michael( Mansbridge-Wood/Wood) making him an Abbott
or a claim by him to be an Abbott.

Father Abbot Michael is clear enough on his new website...


"The Hermitage [St George, New Mexico] is a hermitage of Saint Petroc
Monastery whose Abbot is Fr. Michael."

http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/hermitage-of-saint-george-america/

However this claim to the rank of Abbot has since been denied by New York.

The link says that the Prior is Fr. Joshua. You need to learn to take screen shots.

I gave the sentence in its original form at

http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/hermitage-of-saint-george-america/

It has been altered.

The claim to be an Abbot is still being propagated on another page of the website
http://orthodoxwesternrite.wordpress.com/st-petroc-monastery/

"Saint Petroc Monastery is composed of two separate semi-eremitic houses,
each occupied by a Hieromonk and overseen by an Abbot (Fr. Michael)
and a Saint George Hermitage  overseen by a Prior (Fr Joshua)."

Screen shots have been taken by other people.  I don't know how.



But isn't that what the Australian and NZ ROCOR website also says?
http://www.rocor.org.au/?page_id=2
http://directory.stinnocentpress.com/viewparish.cgi?Uid=321&lang=en

I am not with you, George.  The website does not say "Abbot Michael (Mansbridge-Wood)"  It says "Hieromonk Michael (Mansbridge-Wood)"
Check the webshot. The last line says "The Superior is Hieromonk Michael".


I am not familiar with the terminology used in all the Orthodox Churches but "Superior" does not mean "Abbot" in the Russian Church.  His own bishop has denied that he is an Abbot two days ago.
But the Russian Church has adopted Western terminology when it adopted the Western Rite. Surely the Superior of a Western Rite Monastery should have a Western title like "Abbot" or "Prior"?
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« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2011, 11:47:46 PM »

Maybe just pm Fr. Michael and i'll bet he can clarify this for you...
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« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2011, 11:48:28 PM »

But the Russian Church has adopted Western terminology when it adopted the Western Rite. Surely the Superior of a Western Rite Monastery should have a Western title like "Abbot" or "Prior"?

You would have to take that up with his bishop who responded to a request for information from a senior WR clergyman and denied he is an Abbot.  The bishop is something of a scholar in Western Rite matters.
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« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2011, 11:49:12 PM »

Maybe just pm Fr. Michael and i'll bet he can clarify this for you...

Good thinking.
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« Reply #29 on: February 14, 2011, 11:56:50 PM »

But the Russian Church has adopted Western terminology when it adopted the Western Rite. Surely the Superior of a Western Rite Monastery should have a Western title like "Abbot" or "Prior"?

You would have to take that up with his bishop who responded to a request for information from a senior WR clergyman and denied he is an Abbot.  The bishop is something of a scholar in Western Rite matters.
I think you need to clarify whether the Bishop said that Fr. Michael is "not an Abbot" or whether he said that he is "not an Igumen".
 What I mean is although I'm aware that "Igumen" is a priestly rank in the Russian Church which may have been denied to Fr. Michael, ROCOR currently holds him to be the Superior of St. Petroc's, and in Western culture, the Superior of a monastery is an Abbot.
Could you clarify exactly what your Bishop said?
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« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2011, 12:01:26 AM »

Could you clarify exactly what your Bishop said?


On Saturday, February 12, 2011 8:50 PM [New York time]

Fr Michael's bishop said and this is a direct quote:

"Fr. Michael Wood is not an abbot -- only a priestmonk."
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« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2011, 12:11:54 AM »

Could you clarify exactly what your Bishop said?


On Saturday, February 12, 2011 8:50 PM [New York time]

Fr Michael's bishop said and this is a direct quote:

"Fr. Michael Wood is not an abbot -- only a priestmonk."


Fair enough.  This seems to have been a simple misunderstanding since the Bishop appears to consider "Abbot" to be equivalent to "Igumen" and not "Superior". I think its more  a misunderstanding based on translation rather than a pretension to authority which doesn't exist. Since the Bishop's determination only came out 3 days ago, we need to allow St. Petroc's time to adjust its websites according to the Bishop's definition of "Abbot" (which indeed it seems to be doing).
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« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2011, 12:22:26 AM »

George,

I don't think that I buy into your theory of ignorance on the part of the Bishop or the "Abbot."

If Fr Michael is conducting a ceremony to bring a woman into his Columban Order as a novice, don't you think that there would have been a ceremony and an episcopal Decree installing him in the far more important position of Abbot.

We may need to agree to disagree about this.
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« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2011, 12:48:35 AM »

George,

I don't think that I buy into your theory of ignorance on the part of the Bishop or the "Abbot."

If Fr Michael is conducting a ceremony to bring a woman into his Columban Order as a novice, don't you think that there would have been a ceremony and an episcopal Decree installing him in the far more important position of Abbot.

We may need to agree to disagree about this.

I don't know that I'm actually disagreeing with anything. I'm still trying to understand the Russian Church's Western Rite (as well as the Antiochians's Western Rite).
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« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2011, 06:19:01 AM »

Hieromonk/Abbott Michael names the postulant in his St. Nectean Petrochian Mission website http://saintnectan.blogspot.com/  as Margaret Smythe, presumably the resident of the Petrochian Scottish Life Giving Spring House. http://orthodoxwesternrite.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/horse-l.jpg  May the Lord bless Margaret's journey.  It cannot be an easy thing to be entering a new Columban order without the shelter of a cloister and the formation offered by wise nuns.  I hope and pray that she will take some comfort in the wonderful Lesna Convent of the Russian Church just across the Channel in France. May the Mother of God protect her, and may Christ bless her novice ceremony at the hands of the Petrochian Superior Hieromonk Michael (Mansbridge-Woods)
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« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2011, 06:10:47 PM »

This is really quite straightforward and needn't be the cause of any confusion or accusations of impropriety on anybody's part.

The word Abbot is used in two related but distinct senses.  The head monk of a western coenobitic monastery is known as its abbot, that is to say, the father (abba) of that particular community, even if he has not been ordained to the priesthood.  In addition, Abbot is also a specific rank of monastic clergy in the Russian Orthodox Church.  Just because a monk of the ROC has not been elevated to the clerical rank of abbot, it does not make him any less the abbot of his monastery.

For some time now, Hieromonk Michael has referred to himself as the Superior of St Petroc Monastery in order to avoid the sort of confusion displayed on this thread but Dom James (Deschene), of the Benedictine Monastery of Christ the Saviour has for years referred to himself as the abbot of Christminster, and nobody has batted an eyelid, despite the fact that he, to my knowledge, has never been raised to the clerical rank of abbot.  This is because it perfectly normal practice for a monastery of the western tradition.

This really isn't something over which to get worked up.

Please, let us discuss these matters in a Benedictine spirit of peace and tranquility.

M
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« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2011, 06:50:51 PM »

George,

I don't think that I buy into your theory of ignorance on the part of the Bishop or the "Abbot."

If Fr Michael is conducting a ceremony to bring a woman into his Columban Order as a novice, don't you think that there would have been a ceremony and an episcopal Decree installing him in the far more important position of Abbot.

We may need to agree to disagree about this.

I don't know that I'm actually disagreeing with anything. I'm still trying to understand the Russian Church's Western Rite (as well as the Antiochians's Western Rite).
You can start here:
"The Orthodox Church of the East in the eighteenth century: being the correspondance between the Eastern Patriarchs and the Non-juring bishops" By George Williams
http://books.google.com/books?id=V7g_AAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=the+orthodox+church+in+the+century&cd=2#v=onepage&q&f=false
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« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2011, 07:06:05 PM »

Hieromonk/Abbott Michael names the postulant in his St. Nectean Petrochian Mission website http://saintnectan.blogspot.com/  as Margaret Smythe, presumably the resident of the Petrochian Scottish Life Giving Spring House. http://orthodoxwesternrite.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/horse-l.jpg  May the Lord bless Margaret's journey.  It cannot be an easy thing to be entering a new Columban order without the shelter of a cloister and the formation offered by wise nuns.  

Dear David,

Thank you for your good wishes and please do not worry about me. I will most definitely be receiving monastic formation in a traditional manner. There was never any question of Fr Michael blessing me and then leaving me to get on with it alone, almost the first thing we discussed was formation. I also have an excellent spiritual father who would not have allowed me to start as a solitary even had it been suggested.

In Christ,
Margaret
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« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2011, 08:06:17 PM »

If Fr Michael is conducting a ceremony to bring a woman into his Columban Order as a novice....

Dear Fr Ambrose,

Your blessing.

Neither Fr Michael nor I have started an order of any kind. As far as we are aware Orthodox monasticism doesn't have orders. Fr Michael thought the Columban rule might be good for me, that is all.

In Christ,
Margaret
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« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2011, 10:11:23 PM »

This is really quite straightforward and needn't be the cause of any confusion or accusations of impropriety on anybody's part.

The word Abbot is used in two related but distinct senses.  The head monk of a western coenobitic monastery is known as its abbot, that is to say, the father (abba) of that particular community, even if he has not been ordained to the priesthood.  In addition, Abbot is also a specific rank of monastic clergy in the Russian Orthodox Church.  Just because a monk of the ROC has not been elevated to the clerical rank of abbot, it does not make him any less the abbot of his monastery.

For some time now, Hieromonk Michael has referred to himself as the Superior of St Petroc Monastery in order to avoid the sort of confusion displayed on this thread but Dom James (Deschene), of the Benedictine Monastery of Christ the Saviour has for years referred to himself as the abbot of Christminster, and nobody has batted an eyelid, despite the fact that he, to my knowledge, has never been raised to the clerical rank of abbot.  This is because it perfectly normal practice for a monastery of the western tradition.

This really isn't something over which to get worked up.

Please, let us discuss these matters in a Benedictine spirit of peace and tranquility.

M

This clears things up quite a bit! I was raised Roman Catholic before converting to Holy Orthodoxy and it is really silly and very embarassing that I wouldn't know this distinction.  laugh

Ah well, what seemed frightening and totally inconsistent has turned out to be a complete fluke! I should have done my homework before posting my opinion.

Please forgive me if I have offended anyone with my baseless criticisms.
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« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2011, 10:13:06 PM »

Margaret S.

May God grant you many years sister in Christ! I will remember to keep you in my prayers. Please pray for me, a sinner.
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« Reply #41 on: February 16, 2011, 05:40:16 AM »

Hieromonk/Abbott Michael names the postulant in his St. Nectean Petrochian Mission website http://saintnectan.blogspot.com/  as Margaret Smythe, presumably the resident of the Petrochian Scottish Life Giving Spring House. http://orthodoxwesternrite.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/horse-l.jpg  May the Lord bless Margaret's journey.  It cannot be an easy thing to be entering a new Columban order without the shelter of a cloister and the formation offered by wise nuns.  

Dear David,

Thank you for your good wishes and please do not worry about me. I will most definitely be receiving monastic formation in a traditional manner. There was never any question of Fr Michael blessing me and then leaving me to get on with it alone, almost the first thing we discussed was formation. I also have an excellent spiritual father who would not have allowed me to start as a solitary even had it been suggested.

In Christ,
Margaret
  May the Lord protect you in your profession as a novice nun of the Columban Rule.  May Our Lady of Walsingham protect you with her maternal veil.  May St. Augustine of Canterbury, protect your work in the English Western-rite Church and may St. Hilda of Whitby, the most eminent of English nun saints guide your steps.  May St. Michael the Archangel rule your Father Abbott Michael as he guides your monastic obedience.
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« Reply #42 on: February 16, 2011, 05:48:36 AM »

But the Russian Church has adopted Western terminology when it adopted the Western Rite. Surely the Superior of a Western Rite Monastery should have a Western title like "Abbot" or "Prior"?

You would have to take that up with his bishop who responded to a request for information from a senior WR clergyman and denied he is an Abbot.  The bishop is something of a scholar in Western Rite matters.
I think you need to clarify whether the Bishop said that Fr. Michael is "not an Abbot" or whether he said that he is "not an Igumen".
 What I mean is although I'm aware that "Igumen" is a priestly rank in the Russian Church which may have been denied to Fr. Michael, ROCOR currently holds him to be the Superior of St. Petroc's, and in Western culture, the Superior of a monastery is an Abbot.
Could you clarify exactly what your Bishop said?
Why do Eastern-rite titles such as "Hieromonk" get used in the Western-rite anyway.  Christ the Savior ROCOR Western-rite monastery is Benedictine, and their Abbott is styled "Dom", short for "Dominus", rather than Archimandrite etc.  Similarly they refer to the "Mass" =rather than "Divine Liturgy" which is culturally and spiritually what the eucharist has been called in the West since before the schism.

Perhaps the Petrochian traditions could embrace the same language?  Abbott is a normal Western ecclesiastical title for the head monk of an established monastery - usually one of a certain size and with consecrated church etc.  Perhaps this might be hard given the missionary and roving nature of the Petroc style of monasticism.
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« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2011, 06:09:55 PM »

Sister Margaret Smythe who was blessed as a novice nun in the Columban monastic way last Sunday.

A unique event in the restoration of Columban monasticism to the Orthodox Church.

Ad multos annos nostrae sorori!

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« Reply #44 on: February 28, 2011, 06:32:01 PM »


This is really quite straightforward and needn't be the cause of any confusion or accusations of impropriety on anybody's part.

The word Abbot is used in two related but distinct senses.  The head monk of a western coenobitic monastery is known as its abbot, that is to say, the father (abba) of that particular community, even if he has not been ordained to the priesthood.  In addition, Abbot is also a specific rank of monastic clergy in the Russian Orthodox Church.  Just because a monk of the ROC has not been elevated to the clerical rank of abbot, it does not make him any less the abbot of his monastery.


This has the unexpected effect of raising to the rank of Abbot several monks in the Russian Church Abroad and, as with Fr Michael, without any episcopal approval.  There is Abbot Anthony (Bondi) of New York and Abbot Joshua (Anna) of New Mexico.

Since His Grace Bp Jerome has specifically denied that Fr Michael of Tasmania is an Abbot he would most likely deny that other WR monks are also.


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