Author Topic: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.  (Read 3653 times)

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Offline Shiny

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I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« on: February 11, 2011, 10:06:21 PM »
It's God's Word yet it's up to man's interpretation of it. Logical fallacy. :police:
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Offline dcommini

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Re: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2011, 10:55:14 PM »
This reminds me of a de-motivational picture I saw once...

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Offline Shiny

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Re: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2011, 10:56:48 PM »
Thanks for killing my Eureka! moment, but yes agreed 100%
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Offline dcommini

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Re: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2011, 10:59:27 PM »
Sorry, I did not mean to lessen your profound statement above, rather add to...
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Offline Jason.Wike

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Re: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2011, 02:04:33 AM »
If the church Jesus founded was, as Protestants claim, overtaken by pagans and corrupted in 2 generations, and not re-founded until the Reformation, they are also claiming that God did not protect his church, and that those supposed corrupting pagans founded a church that lasted 100 times longer than His. :o

Offline theo philosopher

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Re: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2011, 03:18:55 AM »
If the church Jesus founded was, as Protestants claim, overtaken by pagans and corrupted in 2 generations, and not re-founded until the Reformation, they are also claiming that God did not protect his church, and that those supposed corrupting pagans founded a church that lasted 100 times longer than His. :o

Check out the book The Reformers and Their Stepchildren by Leonard Verduin. The Protestant explanation, at least at the academic level, is more nuanced.

But, let me give you a fair warning; the book will make you angry as Verduin makes multiple mistakes in tracing the history of Protestant thinking. It's horrible scholarship, but for whatever reason the book keeps popping up in academic Protestant circles.
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Offline scamandrius

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Re: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2011, 05:37:11 PM »
If the church Jesus founded was, as Protestants claim, overtaken by pagans and corrupted in 2 generations, and not re-founded until the Reformation, they are also claiming that God did not protect his church, and that those supposed corrupting pagans founded a church that lasted 100 times longer than His. :o

They are also saying that Christ was lying when He said that the Gates of Hades would never prevail against it.
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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2011, 06:01:35 PM »
They would argue that the church consists of a group of people who loosely confess Jesus to be the Christ. They would maintain that since this group still exists, that hades had not prevailed over the church.

Offline dcommini

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Re: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2011, 06:02:30 PM »
If the church Jesus founded was, as Protestants claim, overtaken by pagans and corrupted in 2 generations, and not re-founded until the Reformation, they are also claiming that God did not protect his church, and that those supposed corrupting pagans founded a church that lasted 100 times longer than His. :o

I would like to point out that many Protestant groups claim that when "Christianity" (as they would put it) was made legal that real Christians saw the threat of a pagan overthrow and went under ground until the Reformation (sounds like heretic groups to me...).
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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2011, 06:29:54 PM »
If the church Jesus founded was, as Protestants claim, overtaken by pagans and corrupted in 2 generations, and not re-founded until the Reformation, they are also claiming that God did not protect his church, and that those supposed corrupting pagans founded a church that lasted 100 times longer than His. :o

I would like to point out that many Protestant groups claim that when "Christianity" (as they would put it) was made legal that real Christians saw the threat of a pagan overthrow and went under ground until the Reformation (sounds like heretic groups to me...).



Martin Luther comes above ground for a look around...and apparently doesn't notice his shadow! ;)

Offline dcommini

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Re: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2011, 07:04:24 PM »





Martin Luther comes above ground for a look around...and apparently doesn't notice his shadow! ;)

I laughed... hard
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Offline Keble

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Re: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2011, 12:10:50 AM »
All of this is very nice if you are talking about restorationists, but most Protestants aren't restorationists. The Lutherans for example are not.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2011, 12:29:37 AM »
All of this is very nice if you are talking about restorationists, but most Protestants aren't restorationists. The Lutherans for example are not.

So say the talking heads, but the strictly confessional Lutherans believe that they are maintaining Christian life and doctrine as it has always been taught and believed in all places, and yet concepts like Sola Fide are categorized as such when it is absolutely not the case. So while they might not see it as a recovery in the same way that Restorationists do, they do seek to restore pure belief and practice by gutting certain elements. So while they might not be rebuilding the Church, they were doing some pretty extensive remodeling. The real question is, how much altering can take place before it becomes a different building altogether?

The ground is just as shaky for the magisterial reformers as the radical ones. I don't know why you still refuse to admit this.

Offline sprtslvr1973

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Re: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2011, 09:29:47 AM »
If the church Jesus founded was, as Protestants claim, overtaken by pagans and corrupted in 2 generations, and not re-founded until the Reformation, they are also claiming that God did not protect his church, and that those supposed corrupting pagans founded a church that lasted 100 times longer than His. :o
What? Don't you know that the Baptists trace their lineage to John the Baptist, and that they are the REAL church? If you don't believe them just read JM Carroll's "Trail of Blood" and it will prove their case ::)
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Offline sprtslvr1973

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Re: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2011, 09:36:30 AM »
All of this is very nice if you are talking about restorationists, but most Protestants aren't restorationists. The Lutherans for example are not.

So say the talking heads, but the strictly confessional Lutherans believe that they are maintaining Christian life and doctrine as it has always been taught and believed in all places, and yet concepts like Sola Fide are categorized as such when it is absolutely not the case. So while they might not see it as a recovery in the same way that Restorationists do, they do seek to restore pure belief and practice by gutting certain elements. So while they might not be rebuilding the Church, they were doing some pretty extensive remodeling. The real question is, how much altering can take place before it becomes a different building altogether?

The ground is just as shaky for the magisterial reformers as the radical ones. I don't know why you still refuse to admit this.

Is it possible though that Luther had a point with his Bondage of the Will? I more often than not agree with the standard Protestant belief that to be truly saved one must respond to Christ, and Christ is revealed through the Gospel, of which the Holy Mysteries are a part.
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Re: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2011, 06:18:32 PM »

What? Don't you know that the Baptists trace their lineage to John the Baptist, and that they are the REAL church? If you don't believe them just read JM Carroll's "Trail of Blood" and it will prove their case ::)

Reinventing the wheel, I'm afraid. The Mandean sect which has its origins in the 7th century, claims John the Baptist as the Messiah.
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Offline Keble

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Re: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2011, 01:13:08 PM »
All of this is very nice if you are talking about restorationists, but most Protestants aren't restorationists. The Lutherans for example are not.

So say the talking heads, but the strictly confessional Lutherans believe that they are maintaining Christian life and doctrine as it has always been taught and believed in all places, and yet concepts like Sola Fide are categorized as such when it is absolutely not the case. So while they might not see it as a recovery in the same way that Restorationists do, they do seek to restore pure belief and practice by gutting certain elements. So while they might not be rebuilding the Church, they were doing some pretty extensive remodeling. The real question is, how much altering can take place before it becomes a different building altogether?

Well, that depends of course upon your ecclesiology. An Anglican would say that, yes, the continuity of the church is necessary sacramentally, but we also hold that things do get off track and have to be corrected. A Baptist and I believe most Calvinists would not think the same way about the continuity of the church.

"We're only teaching the doctrine of the Apostles" is a common sales pitch but it isn't really true of anyone. Doctrinal development is essential, and that's what sets off the "humans doing the talking" problem. There's an important difference between the restorationists, who basically talk as if they were skipping fifteen hundred years of church history, and the main body of Protestants, who are conscious of standing within the history of theology even when they are reacting against it. It's not the extent of the remodelling that matters, except that one believes that it is necessary or unneeded or wrong-headed. The problem with the restorationists is that they think they are simply rewinding, when they aren't. It really is necessary to confront the development of doctrine even when one disagrees with some element of it; otherwise the tendency is to repeat old mistakes; they are thus subject to the old criticisms. And if you look at the Protestant mainstream (leaving out the Baptists for the moment) you will see that when they talk about heresies they are in general agreed with the ancients that Arianism and so forth are heresies.

The mainline view is mostly about pruning: cutting away a lot of the development in doctrine and practice (especially the latter). I suppose one can argue that this is different only in degree from restorationism but I would hold that the historical consciousness of the mainline does make a difference. At any rate none of this leads to a refutation; it simple leads to outlining some of the principal differences. People who claim that they can do without the history of theology are wrong, because they are the products of that history. But the mainline doesn't do that, and at that point the issue becomes the process of theological development. One can criticism and reject some developments without having to reject institutions to the degree that the restorationists do.


Offline dcommini

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Re: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2011, 01:55:57 PM »
All of this is very nice if you are talking about restorationists, but most Protestants aren't restorationists. The Lutherans for example are not.

So say the talking heads, but the strictly confessional Lutherans believe that they are maintaining Christian life and doctrine as it has always been taught and believed in all places, and yet concepts like Sola Fide are categorized as such when it is absolutely not the case. So while they might not see it as a recovery in the same way that Restorationists do, they do seek to restore pure belief and practice by gutting certain elements. So while they might not be rebuilding the Church, they were doing some pretty extensive remodeling. The real question is, how much altering can take place before it becomes a different building altogether?

Well, that depends of course upon your ecclesiology. An Anglican would say that, yes, the continuity of the church is necessary sacramentally, but we also hold that things do get off track and have to be corrected. A Baptist and I believe most Calvinists would not think the same way about the continuity of the church.

"We're only teaching the doctrine of the Apostles" is a common sales pitch but it isn't really true of anyone. Doctrinal development is essential, and that's what sets off the "humans doing the talking" problem. There's an important difference between the restorationists, who basically talk as if they were skipping fifteen hundred years of church history, and the main body of Protestants, who are conscious of standing within the history of theology even when they are reacting against it. It's not the extent of the remodelling that matters, except that one believes that it is necessary or unneeded or wrong-headed. The problem with the restorationists is that they think they are simply rewinding, when they aren't. It really is necessary to confront the development of doctrine even when one disagrees with some element of it; otherwise the tendency is to repeat old mistakes; they are thus subject to the old criticisms. And if you look at the Protestant mainstream (leaving out the Baptists for the moment) you will see that when they talk about heresies they are in general agreed with the ancients that Arianism and so forth are heresies.

The mainline view is mostly about pruning: cutting away a lot of the development in doctrine and practice (especially the latter). I suppose one can argue that this is different only in degree from restorationism but I would hold that the historical consciousness of the mainline does make a difference. At any rate none of this leads to a refutation; it simple leads to outlining some of the principal differences. People who claim that they can do without the history of theology are wrong, because they are the products of that history. But the mainline doesn't do that, and at that point the issue becomes the process of theological development. One can criticism and reject some developments without having to reject institutions to the degree that the restorationists do.



I am going to have to disagree, slightly if at all.

Most of the Protestant groups I have been in contact with believe themselves to be a part of some kind of restoration movement. Remember that there are 20,000 + Protestant groups. From what my own personal experience tells me they believe that the Church of old (read Apostolic or Orthodox if you will) died out or went underground after Christianity became legal. They claim a lapse in the Apostolic succession, if not right after the Apostles then after a few of the Early Fathers.

Even Luther can be seen as a type of restorationist as he left the RCC because of the problems he encountered. He sought to restore the Church. Early Lutherans even had contact with the Orthodox Church but their theology was not accepted and as such contact was broken. This tells me that even when faced with the true Church the Lutherans still saw something that needed to be restored or fixed.

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Offline David Young

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Re: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2011, 03:38:04 PM »
It's God's Word yet it's up to man's interpretation of it. Logical fallacy.

That's two sentences. Three if you regard it as your sentence following a trial of Protestantism.  ;)
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2011, 03:45:34 PM »
It's God's Word yet it's up to man's interpretation of it. Logical fallacy.

That's two sentences. Three if you regard it as your sentence following a trial of Protestantism.  ;)

Not to mention it is complete FAIL.

Trollish thread topic. Unthoughtful. And little attention garnered.

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Offline UniversalistGuy

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Re: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2011, 04:27:01 PM »
It's God's Word yet it's up to man's interpretation of it. Logical fallacy. :police:

Blessed are the logical.

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Re: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2011, 06:13:45 PM »
I detected misunderstandings in this thread that were so strong that they attracted me to it months after the last post had been made.
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Offline Saint Iaint

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Re: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« Reply #22 on: May 20, 2011, 06:44:30 PM »
I detected misunderstandings in this thread that were so strong that they attracted me to it months after the last post had been made.

Is the investigation still ongoing or can you reveal to us your findings?

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Re: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« Reply #23 on: May 20, 2011, 06:47:44 PM »
I detected misunderstandings in this thread that were so strong that they attracted me to it months after the last post had been made.

Is the investigation still ongoing or can you reveal to us your findings?

(Bucktoothed grin)

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My research was abandoned because of a lack of funding. However, my final report suggests setting up warning beacons so that no one stumbles upon this thread in the future.
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Offline Saint Iaint

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Re: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« Reply #24 on: May 20, 2011, 06:53:56 PM »
I detected misunderstandings in this thread that were so strong that they attracted me to it months after the last post had been made.

Is the investigation still ongoing or can you reveal to us your findings?

(Bucktoothed grin)

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My research was abandoned because of a lack of funding. However, my final report suggests setting up warning beacons so that no one stumbles upon this thread in the future.

Done.



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Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute...

Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth.

Offline Doubting Thomas

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Re: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« Reply #25 on: May 23, 2011, 04:33:48 PM »
I detected misunderstandings in this thread that were so strong that they attracted me to it months after the last post had been made.

Is the investigation still ongoing or can you reveal to us your findings?

(Bucktoothed grin)

†IC XC†
†NI KA†

My research was abandoned because of a lack of funding. However, my final report suggests setting up warning beacons so that no one stumbles upon this thread in the future.

Done.



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DOH! Stumbled on to this thread without warning.  The beacons must not work.
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Offline yeshuaisiam

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Re: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« Reply #26 on: May 23, 2011, 09:30:04 PM »
It's God's Word yet it's up to man's interpretation of it. Logical fallacy. :police:

That's if you believe man's votes who "vote God's will" are not man's interpretation.

But I assure you of something, Jesus did not teach to kiss icons.  Somebody did.

Was it God's will or mans?  It may be an unsolvable mystery.
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Re: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« Reply #27 on: May 23, 2011, 09:42:54 PM »
But you and I are made in the "image and likeness of God." Guess what the word for "image" is?

"Eikon."

Jesus didn't teach how to drive a car, either, but I bet most people don't have a theological crisis over that, either.
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Offline Shlomlokh

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Re: I can effectively debunk Protestantism in one sentence.
« Reply #28 on: May 23, 2011, 10:12:40 PM »
It's God's Word yet it's up to man's interpretation of it. Logical fallacy. :police:

That's if you believe man's votes who "vote God's will" are not man's interpretation.

But I assure you of something, Jesus did not teach to kiss icons.  Somebody did.

Was it God's will or mans?  It may be an unsolvable mystery.
Did Jesus teach you to drive an automobile or use a computer or send a text message??? Shoo, man if you be doin those things you be listening to evil men instead of Jesus! ;)

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