OrthodoxChristianity.net
April 21, 2014, 10:25:21 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: The Rules page has been updated.  Please familiarize yourself with its contents!
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Do God's Energies Change?  (Read 11152 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #180 on: February 11, 2011, 11:24:12 PM »

Yes, you are misunderstanding me, in fact that is the exact opposite of what I am saying. What I said was:"God's Creative act is therefore Eternal, whereas Creation is Temporal."
That seems to be to be contrary to the teaching of Palamas in both the Triads and the Capita Physica.  Palamas makes a distinction between essence and energy in relation to creation precisely to avoid turning creation into something co-eternal with God.  God was not always creating, although He possesses the power to create from eternity.
Do you then believe that the Energies are not eternal, Todd?
Did you read the quotation I supplied from St. Gregory?  Some energies have no beginning, while others have a beginning; and some energies have no end, while others do have an end.  Nevertheless, all the divine energies are uncreated, because they are the energies of God.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 11:24:54 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #181 on: February 11, 2011, 11:26:29 PM »

Yes, you are misunderstanding me, in fact that is the exact opposite of what I am saying. What I said was:"God's Creative act is therefore Eternal, whereas Creation is Temporal."
That seems to be to be contrary to the teaching of Palamas in both the Triads and the Capita Physica.  Palamas makes a distinction between essence and energy in relation to creation precisely to avoid turning creation into something co-eternal with God.  God was not always creating, although He possesses the power to create from eternity.
If I knit a sweater, the sweater (Creation) is one thing and the knitting (action of the Uncreated Energies) is another. Creation is one thing, the action of the Creation is another. Creation (the sweater) is Temporal, the Action of the Creator (knitting) is Eternal.
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #182 on: February 11, 2011, 11:27:23 PM »

Yes, you are misunderstanding me, in fact that is the exact opposite of what I am saying. What I said was:"God's Creative act is therefore Eternal, whereas Creation is Temporal."
That seems to be to be contrary to the teaching of Palamas in both the Triads and the Capita Physica.  Palamas makes a distinction between essence and energy in relation to creation precisely to avoid turning creation into something co-eternal with God.  God was not always creating, although He possesses the power to create from eternity.
If I knit a sweater, the sweater (Creation) is one thing and the knitting (action of the Uncreated Energies) is another. Creation is one thing, the action of the Creation is another. Creation (the sweater) is Temporal, the Action of the Creator (knitting) is Eternal.
You also have the power to knit a sweater, but you were not knitting the sweater from the moment of your conception in the womb of your mother.  You only energized that power when you began knitting the sweater.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2011, 11:27:55 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #183 on: February 11, 2011, 11:29:55 PM »

I must make dinner for my mother.  Thanks to all for the exciting conversation.  I will check in on it again soon.  Cheesy
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #184 on: February 11, 2011, 11:30:04 PM »

Yes, you are misunderstanding me, in fact that is the exact opposite of what I am saying. What I said was:"God's Creative act is therefore Eternal, whereas Creation is Temporal."
That seems to be to be contrary to the teaching of Palamas in both the Triads and the Capita Physica.  Palamas makes a distinction between essence and energy in relation to creation precisely to avoid turning creation into something co-eternal with God.  God was not always creating, although He possesses the power to create from eternity.
If I knit a sweater, the sweater (Creation) is one thing and the knitting (action of the Uncreated Energies) is another. Creation is one thing, the action of the Creation is another. Creation (the sweater) is Temporal, the Action of the Creator (knitting) is Eternal.
You also have the power to knit a sweater, but you were not knitting the sweater from the moment of your conception in the womb of your mother.  You only energized that power when you began knitting the sweater.
True. But if I am "sometimes knitting" and "sometimes not knitting", my knitting is temporal. Was the Creative Act of the Divine Energies temporal?
Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,959


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #185 on: February 11, 2011, 11:33:52 PM »

Yes, you are misunderstanding me, in fact that is the exact opposite of what I am saying. What I said was:"God's Creative act is therefore Eternal, whereas Creation is Temporal."
That seems to be to be contrary to the teaching of Palamas in both the Triads and the Capita Physica.  Palamas makes a distinction between essence and energy in relation to creation precisely to avoid turning creation into something co-eternal with God.  God was not always creating, although He possesses the power to create from eternity.
Do you then believe that the Energies are not eternal, Todd?
Did you read the quotation I supplied from St. Gregory?  Some energies have no beginning, while others have a beginning; and some energies have no end, while others do have an end.  Nevertheless, all the divine energies are uncreated, because they are the energies of God.
If the Divine Energies are not eternal, then they are not God. There is a serious problem with your understanding of the Energies.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 8,892


Pray for me, Sts. Mina & Kyrillos VI for my exams


WWW
« Reply #186 on: February 12, 2011, 12:07:20 AM »

And another citation from St Cyril:

"Just as, therefore, the woman is called the glory of the man, because she received a portion of his members to the fashioning of her own [body], so also man is called the glory of God, because he is made a participant in his essence through the Holy Spirit who abides in him." (Thesaurus 13.3)

Great quote Smiley

I don't think he uses essence the same way here the Cappadocian fathers did.  For instance, man cannot be omnipotent, thus St. Basil says man cannot partake of the essence.  But to St. Cyril, to work miracles seems to be in correlation with partaking of His essence.  So it seems essence in one part is what one can't partake, while essence from another encompasses the wholeness of God's nature, including His grace.

In any sense, I think distinction is inevitable, but mysteriously, we are talking of one and the same Godhead.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2011, 12:11:46 AM by minasoliman » Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
akimel
Fr Aidan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR (Western Rite)
Posts: 516



WWW
« Reply #187 on: February 12, 2011, 12:24:32 AM »

For those of you who are struggling to get a handle on the Byzantine construal of time and eternity, I recommend David Bradshaw's essay "A Christian Approach to the Philosophy of Time." 
Logged

HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #188 on: February 12, 2011, 12:43:20 AM »



I think these are sufficient to show that St. Cyril implied grace as an operation or energy of God, as God Himself, through the Spirit.


I think you are correct.  In fact, St. Gregory Palamas refers to the divine energies as the energies of the Holy Spirit, which flow to us from the Father, through the Son, in the Holy Spirit.

Both reiterating my point earlier that there is no distinction between the Energies of God and the Essence of God, as both are mutually interconnected and cooperating in unity. The Energy of God is of the Essence of God, it can not really be said to be separate.  I am not quite sure we can think of the Energies of God as being the physical matter of the Universe, more so in the better analogy, they are the quantum forces behind the physical matter which makes matter even possible.  In this way, God is not in the Creation, but His Energy/Will is cooperating in the Creation.  God is the Energy/Will behind the laws of Creation which makes Creation possible, and this definitely emanates from the Godhead and is the Godhead, and is not essentially matter or material.

The idea  of separating the Energy of God can lead to separating the Unity of the Incarnation, as the humanity of Christ is very much a created thing as are we humans, and His humanity is not separate from His Divinity, further evidence of the cooperation and Oneness of both the Energy/Operation/Will of God and the Essence/Divine Nature/Godhead of God.

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: February 12, 2011, 12:45:38 AM by HabteSelassie » Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #189 on: February 12, 2011, 12:43:48 AM »

Yes, you are misunderstanding me, in fact that is the exact opposite of what I am saying. What I said was:"God's Creative act is therefore Eternal, whereas Creation is Temporal."
That seems to be to be contrary to the teaching of Palamas in both the Triads and the Capita Physica.  Palamas makes a distinction between essence and energy in relation to creation precisely to avoid turning creation into something co-eternal with God.  God was not always creating, although He possesses the power to create from eternity.
Do you then believe that the Energies are not eternal, Todd?
Did you read the quotation I supplied from St. Gregory?  Some energies have no beginning, while others have a beginning; and some energies have no end, while others do have an end.  Nevertheless, all the divine energies are uncreated, because they are the energies of God.
If the Divine Energies are not eternal, then they are not God. There is a serious problem with your understanding of the Energies.
That doesn't follow if you read the quote from St. Gregory which Apotheoun gives:
But even if this man considers that everything that has a beginning is created, we for our part know that while all the energies of God are uncreated, not all are without beginning.  Indeed, beginning and end must be ascribed, if not to the creative power itself, then at least to its activity, that is to say, to its energy as directed towards created things.  Moses showed this, when he said, 'God rested from all the works which He had begun to do.'
« Last Edit: February 12, 2011, 12:50:53 AM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #190 on: February 12, 2011, 12:55:51 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
From Matzpah:Several questions:

1) Do the Coptic Orthodox make a distinction between the energies of God and the essence of God?

2) Do the Coptic Orthodox believe the essence of God and the energies of God to be God Himself--that is, the energies and the essence are God?

Thank you for your answers! I look forward to reading them. Very Happy

Dear Matzpah,

The Oriental Orthodox Churches did not have in their theology a systematic development of the "energies" of God as did the Eastern Orthodox with such figures as Gregory Palamas and Symeon the New Theologian.

However, I recently asked Fr. George Dragas in one of our clergy retreats if their is any real distinction between the ceoncept of Divine Grace and Divine Energies and he replied that there is not a distinction.

Regarding the question of whether Divine Grace is created or uncreated, I will simply post a small portion of St. Cyril's work on the Holy Spirit which I believe answers your question.

Cyril – That which engraves in us the divine image and imprints there the transcendent beauty like with a stamp, isn’t that the Spirit?
Hemias – But not as a God, they say, as a minister of grace.

Cyril – Is it not Him Himself who marks us, consequently, it is the grace through Him?
Hermias – Apparently
Cyril – But if the grace given by the Spirit is something separate from its substance, why didn’t the blessed Moses clearly say that after having brought the living being into existence, the Craftsman of the universe had afterwards breathed into him a grace, the one which was given through the breath of life? Why didn’t Christ, on his part, say to us: Receive a grace, the one which was given by the ministry of the Holy Spirit? But in the first case, they call this one “breath of life”. It is that the nature of the divinity is true life, since it is true that in it we have life, movement and being. In the second case it is called “Holy Spirit” by the voice of the Savior, which in truth introduces and makes the Spirit dwell in the souls of the believers.

God bless,
Kyrillos
 
http://www.coptichymns.net/PNphpBB2-viewtopic-t-8151.html

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: February 12, 2011, 12:56:18 AM by HabteSelassie » Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #191 on: February 12, 2011, 02:05:21 AM »

The idea  of separating the Energy of God can lead to separating the Unity of the Incarnation, as the humanity of Christ is very much a created thing as are we humans, and His humanity is not separate from His Divinity, further evidence of the cooperation and Oneness of both the Energy/Operation/Will of God and the Essence/Divine Nature/Godhead of God.
How is the Hypostatic Union of the Two Natures "evidence" that Energy (Energia) is not distinct from Essence (Ouisa)?  If Union is "evidence" of "no distinction" then you could easily argue that the Father is the Son and is the Holy Spirit. Even the Apostle St. Paul makes a distinction between the Godhead (Essence) and the Eternal Power (Energies):
"For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His Power (δυναμις) and Godhead (θειοτης); so that they are without excuse:" (Romans 1:20).

Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,959


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #192 on: February 13, 2011, 07:26:44 PM »


That doesn't follow if you read the quote from St. Gregory which Apotheoun gives:
But even if this man considers that everything that has a beginning is created, we for our part know that while all the energies of God are uncreated, not all are without beginning.  Indeed, beginning and end must be ascribed, if not to the creative power itself, then at least to its activity, that is to say, to its energy as directed towards created things.  Moses showed this, when he said, 'God rested from all the works which He had begun to do.'
This also seems to be an argument against what you were previously saying, that the creative act, is eternal. If St. Gregory really thinks that some of the Energies have a beginning, then he is simply wrong. Things that begin to exist are created. If God's Energies truly are God, and God is eternal, then the Energies must be eternal. One can venerate St. Gregory while acknowledging that he was, at times, wrong.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
ozgeorge
I'll take you for who you are if you take me for everything.
Hoplitarches
*************
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Oecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople, the New Rome, the Great Church of Christ.
Posts: 16,382


My plans for retirement.


WWW
« Reply #193 on: February 13, 2011, 07:44:51 PM »


That doesn't follow if you read the quote from St. Gregory which Apotheoun gives:
But even if this man considers that everything that has a beginning is created, we for our part know that while all the energies of God are uncreated, not all are without beginning.  Indeed, beginning and end must be ascribed, if not to the creative power itself, then at least to its activity, that is to say, to its energy as directed towards created things.  Moses showed this, when he said, 'God rested from all the works which He had begun to do.'
This also seems to be an argument against what you were previously saying, that the creative act, is eternal. If St. Gregory really thinks that some of the Energies have a beginning, then he is simply wrong. Things that begin to exist are created. If God's Energies truly are God, and God is eternal, then the Energies must be eternal. One can venerate St. Gregory while acknowledging that he was, at times, wrong.
Do you think the creative act of God was temporal? How could it possibly be? How could the calling into existence of time and space possibly be an event within time and space? Clearly the Divine Energies which created the Universe were Eternal.
What St Gregory is saying is that the Energies are Eternal, but their operation towards created things can sometimes have a beginning and an end. The experience of the Transfiguration had a beginning and an end, but no one in their right mind would say that the Divine Light which the Apostles saw was a created or temporal one.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 08:00:40 PM by ozgeorge » Logged

If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,959


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #194 on: February 14, 2011, 01:16:59 PM »


That doesn't follow if you read the quote from St. Gregory which Apotheoun gives:
But even if this man considers that everything that has a beginning is created, we for our part know that while all the energies of God are uncreated, not all are without beginning.  Indeed, beginning and end must be ascribed, if not to the creative power itself, then at least to its activity, that is to say, to its energy as directed towards created things.  Moses showed this, when he said, 'God rested from all the works which He had begun to do.'
This also seems to be an argument against what you were previously saying, that the creative act, is eternal. If St. Gregory really thinks that some of the Energies have a beginning, then he is simply wrong. Things that begin to exist are created. If God's Energies truly are God, and God is eternal, then the Energies must be eternal. One can venerate St. Gregory while acknowledging that he was, at times, wrong.
Do you think the creative act of God was temporal? How could it possibly be? How could the calling into existence of time and space possibly be an event within time and space? Clearly the Divine Energies which created the Universe were Eternal.
What St Gregory is saying is that the Energies are Eternal, but their operation towards created things can sometimes have a beginning and an end. The experience of the Transfiguration had a beginning and an end, but no one in their right mind would say that the Divine Light which the Apostles saw was a created or temporal one.
Ok George, I am with you there. I completely agree. I thought that for a moment you were suggesting the same thing that Todd was, and I see that you are clearly not. Thanks for clearing that up.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
akimel
Fr Aidan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR (Western Rite)
Posts: 516



WWW
« Reply #195 on: February 14, 2011, 02:04:24 PM »

Consider the following passage from  Fr Georges Florovsky's essay "The Idea of Creation in Christianity":

Quote
Contingency implies a “beginning.” The world has been begun. It has had a chronological beginning. Of course, the world is created not in time, but rather with time. “The beginning of time is not yet time and not even the least particle of it,” says St. Basil — just as the beginning of the road is not yet the road itself, and again “the beginning, in effect, is indivisible and instantaneous (αμερες τι και αδιαστατον, in Hexaemeron, hom. 1, 6). St. Augustine was also emphatic on this point; procul dubio non est mundus factus in tempore, sed cum tempore; quis non videat quod tempora not fuissent, nisi creatura fieret? (Civ. Dei, i i; 6). The created world alone exists in time, as in a real succession or duration. The creation of the world therefore is the creation of time also. Yet, the created world can exist also in another manner, once it bad [sic] been created. This mode of existence is still inconceivable for us now. But, after the General Resurrection, suggested St. John Damascene, there will no longer be any succession of moments, of days and of nights, even for the creatures, but for the righteous there will be one eternal day, and for the wicked and condemned — one endless night (de fide orth. 2; 1). The sequence of moments, the temporal series itself, will have its last term. But, let us remember, the end of time will not be the end of the creaturely existence. This again is the Christian innovation. The temporal series had its first term. We can imagine this beginning of time only in a retrospective manner, by remounting the series of successions — this was precisely the method of St. Basil (Hexaem. 1; 6 — "ascending into the past"). And then, we come ultimately to the point at which we have simply to stop, or rather we postulate the halt. This is the absolutely first term of the temporal series, or the last of our mental retrogression. Before it, or beyond it, there are no terms at all, i.e. no terms or moments of the temporal series, because there was no time before the time begun. For time is precisely “the number of movement, estimated according to its before and after" (Aristotle, Phys. 4: 3). We cannot visualize this first beginning directly. Yet, we can visualize it by the contrary, by discovering and postulating the impossibility of infinite retrogression. It matters little, whether we can really measure the time elapsed since this beginning exactly in centuries or days. What does really matter is just this postulate of the halt. This postulate means also that the “number” of the times past is a finite number. Surely, time was not begun in time, for there was simply nothing to precede time in time. An “empty time “ is but a fiction. It is highly inaccurate to say that God was before the time begun. The word “before” implies just the sequence of instants, it is an utterly temporal expression. But God does not precede the created world in time. “Nor dost Thou by time precede time; else shouldest Thou not precede all times. But Thou precedest all things past by the sublimity of an ever present eternity — celsitudine semper presentis aeternitatis... Thy years are one day; and Thy day is not daily, but To-day... Thy To-day is eternity “ (St. Augustine, Conf. 11; 16). We cannot understand the transition from the Divine Eternity to duration or the succession of times — precisely because there is no homogeneous transition, but an ultimate hiatus and rupture. “Eternity” and “time” are two different modes of existence. They differ essentially — in quality, not just in measure or length. And Omne tempus would not be the true Semper, to quote St. Augustine once more (Civ. Dei 12; 15. But time began. This beginning of time, with the created world, is an absolute beginning — the beginning of all that begins, that is begun. Time and eternity cannot be added together: they have no common measure, they are, as it were, different dimensions of existence. “We are dealing with two orders of being not to be added together nor subtracted; they are, in all rigour, incommensurable, and that is also why they are compossible.”
Logged

Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #196 on: February 14, 2011, 05:40:50 PM »

If the Divine Energies are not eternal, then they are not God. There is a serious problem with your understanding of the Energies.
The divine energies (some of them at least) can have a beginning and yet still be eternal.  After all, even  human beings, who are created in time, will become eternal in the eschaton. 

I really think that some people in this discussion feel that they must protect God somehow from time, while on the other hand Pseudo-Dionysios held that, "one must praise God as both eternity and as time, as the cause of all time and eternity, and the Ancient of Days; and as before time, and beyond time and the immutable 'seasons and times,' and again as existing before the ages, inasmuch as He is before eternity and beyond the ages, and His kingdom 'is a kingdom of all the ages.'"  Both eternity and time are divine processions, and as such they are manifestations of God's presence, while He ineffably remains beyond both in His superessential essence.

The article mentioned by Fr. Kimel is helpful:

For those of you who are struggling to get a handle on the Byzantine construal of time and eternity, I recommend David Bradshaw's essay "A Christian Approach to the Philosophy of Time." 
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 05:42:45 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #197 on: February 14, 2011, 05:45:14 PM »

Yes, you are misunderstanding me, in fact that is the exact opposite of what I am saying. What I said was:"God's Creative act is therefore Eternal, whereas Creation is Temporal."
That seems to be to be contrary to the teaching of Palamas in both the Triads and the Capita Physica.  Palamas makes a distinction between essence and energy in relation to creation precisely to avoid turning creation into something co-eternal with God.  God was not always creating, although He possesses the power to create from eternity.
If I knit a sweater, the sweater (Creation) is one thing and the knitting (action of the Uncreated Energies) is another. Creation is one thing, the action of the Creation is another. Creation (the sweater) is Temporal, the Action of the Creator (knitting) is Eternal.
You also have the power to knit a sweater, but you were not knitting the sweater from the moment of your conception in the womb of your mother.  You only energized that power when you began knitting the sweater.
True. But if I am "sometimes knitting" and "sometimes not knitting", my knitting is temporal. Was the Creative Act of the Divine Energies temporal?
It was both temporal and eternal, remembering that both time and eternity are from, and are - as Pseudo-Dionysios says - God, while God transcends them both.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 05:53:27 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #198 on: February 14, 2011, 05:52:54 PM »

The idea  of separating the Energy of God can lead to separating the Unity of the Incarnation, as the humanity of Christ is very much a created thing as are we humans, and His humanity is not separate from His Divinity, further evidence of the cooperation and Oneness of both the Energy/Operation/Will of God and the Essence/Divine Nature/Godhead of God.
How is the Hypostatic Union of the Two Natures "evidence" that Energy (Energia) is not distinct from Essence (Ouisa)?  If Union is "evidence" of "no distinction" then you could easily argue that the Father is the Son and is the Holy Spirit. Even the Apostle St. Paul makes a distinction between the Godhead (Essence) and the Eternal Power (Energies):
"For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His Power (δυναμις) and Godhead (θειοτης); so that they are without excuse:" (Romans 1:20).
My understanding is - at least according to St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Gregory Palamas - that "godhead" or "divinity" is a divine energy (see St. Gregory of Nyssa, Ad Ablabium; and St. Gregory Palamas, Capita Physica, nos. 105-106).  The divine essence cannot be known or characterized in any way at all.
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #199 on: February 14, 2011, 06:25:54 PM »



My understanding is - at least according to St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Gregory Palamas - that "godhead" or "divinity" is a divine energy (see St. Gregory of Nyssa, Ad Ablabium; and St. Gregory Palamas, Capita Physica, nos. 105-106).  The divine essence cannot be known or characterized in any way at all.

In the logic of theological language, at least according to my understanding of Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church theology and Ge'ez linguistics, there can be no abstract "divine essence" without its according manifestation into some sort of hypostasis, albeit a divine hypostasis.  If the Divine Essence is immutable, unchangeable, immortal, its respective manifestation in the divine hypostasis (of say the Person of the Father or the Person of the Holy Spirit) is in fact a way in which It is characterized or known, as say the Person of the Father.  We may not have direct physical or even spiritual contact with this Person of the Father who is the manifestation of the One Divine Essence, however surely we can speak of Its characteristics and know of It, because Its characteristics are those of the Person of the Father, and we can know the Father through the Son, whose Person we can know tangibly in the form of the Person of the Incarnate Son of God.

I would not say we necessarily have direct access to the Divine Essence, but still this Essence must fundamentally take on some sort of form even if this form is infinite and unapproachable by humanity, It is not purely an abstract concept, as there is no such thing to begin with.  However, as pointed out above, in OO theology we do not necessarily make this dichotomy between the Essence and Energy, between the Source and the Experience of God, rather it is one and the same through the operation of Grace in the Holy Spirit, so I do not necessarily even agree with the premise that Godhead is unapproachable in the first place so that is my obvious bias here.



stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 06:28:00 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,959


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #200 on: February 14, 2011, 08:39:32 PM »

The idea  of separating the Energy of God can lead to separating the Unity of the Incarnation, as the humanity of Christ is very much a created thing as are we humans, and His humanity is not separate from His Divinity, further evidence of the cooperation and Oneness of both the Energy/Operation/Will of God and the Essence/Divine Nature/Godhead of God.
How is the Hypostatic Union of the Two Natures "evidence" that Energy (Energia) is not distinct from Essence (Ouisa)?  If Union is "evidence" of "no distinction" then you could easily argue that the Father is the Son and is the Holy Spirit. Even the Apostle St. Paul makes a distinction between the Godhead (Essence) and the Eternal Power (Energies):
"For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His Power (δυναμις) and Godhead (θειοτης); so that they are without excuse:" (Romans 1:20).
My understanding is - at least according to St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Gregory Palamas - that "godhead" or "divinity" is a divine energy (see St. Gregory of Nyssa, Ad Ablabium; and St. Gregory Palamas, Capita Physica, nos. 105-106).  The divine essence cannot be known or characterized in any way at all.
Are you sure you are not Buddhist? The way you describe the Divine Essene, is that it's not only no-thing, but nothing.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,069


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #201 on: February 14, 2011, 10:03:33 PM »

The idea  of separating the Energy of God can lead to separating the Unity of the Incarnation, as the humanity of Christ is very much a created thing as are we humans, and His humanity is not separate from His Divinity, further evidence of the cooperation and Oneness of both the Energy/Operation/Will of God and the Essence/Divine Nature/Godhead of God.
How is the Hypostatic Union of the Two Natures "evidence" that Energy (Energia) is not distinct from Essence (Ouisa)?  If Union is "evidence" of "no distinction" then you could easily argue that the Father is the Son and is the Holy Spirit. Even the Apostle St. Paul makes a distinction between the Godhead (Essence) and the Eternal Power (Energies):
"For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His Power (δυναμις) and Godhead (θειοτης); so that they are without excuse:" (Romans 1:20).
My understanding is - at least according to St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Gregory Palamas - that "godhead" or "divinity" is a divine energy (see St. Gregory of Nyssa, Ad Ablabium; and St. Gregory Palamas, Capita Physica, nos. 105-106).  The divine essence cannot be known or characterized in any way at all.
Are you sure you are not Buddhist? The way you describe the Divine Essene, is that it's not only no-thing, but nothing.
By "known" is meant "known in an 'objective', 'independent' fashion". The Divine Essence is not knowable in that objective fashion. There are other ways of "knowing" something other than 'objectively'.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 10:06:10 PM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,959


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #202 on: February 14, 2011, 10:37:04 PM »

The idea  of separating the Energy of God can lead to separating the Unity of the Incarnation, as the humanity of Christ is very much a created thing as are we humans, and His humanity is not separate from His Divinity, further evidence of the cooperation and Oneness of both the Energy/Operation/Will of God and the Essence/Divine Nature/Godhead of God.
How is the Hypostatic Union of the Two Natures "evidence" that Energy (Energia) is not distinct from Essence (Ouisa)?  If Union is "evidence" of "no distinction" then you could easily argue that the Father is the Son and is the Holy Spirit. Even the Apostle St. Paul makes a distinction between the Godhead (Essence) and the Eternal Power (Energies):
"For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His Power (δυναμις) and Godhead (θειοτης); so that they are without excuse:" (Romans 1:20).
My understanding is - at least according to St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Gregory Palamas - that "godhead" or "divinity" is a divine energy (see St. Gregory of Nyssa, Ad Ablabium; and St. Gregory Palamas, Capita Physica, nos. 105-106).  The divine essence cannot be known or characterized in any way at all.
Are you sure you are not Buddhist? The way you describe the Divine Essene, is that it's not only no-thing, but nothing.
By "known" is meant "known in an 'objective', 'independent' fashion". The Divine Essence is not knowable in that objective fashion. There are other ways of "knowing" something other than 'objectively'.
I absolutey agree with you. But I don't think Todd means what you mean.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
akimel
Fr Aidan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR (Western Rite)
Posts: 516



WWW
« Reply #203 on: February 15, 2011, 11:50:14 AM »

I have tried to understand time and eternity for the past 30+ years, and I think I understand less now than I did when I started.  I have no idea what time is, and I certainly do not know what eternity is.  As one who cut his theological eye teeth on both Robert W. Jenson, I am open to the assertion that time, in some sense, is a manifestation of God.  But I honestly do not understand these matters.  Here are my ignorant musings:

All Christian reflection on time and eternity must respect, in my judgment, two theological commitments:  (1) God created the world out of nothing.  (2) The biblical story of salvation is the story of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; and this story is truly the story of God.

The first commitment means that we simply cannot, willy nilly, project onto deity our temporal/spatial experience of the world  The second commitment means that we cannot know deity by abstraction from the history of God with us in Jesus of Nazareth.  God was born into the world.  He breathed and ate and walked and slept.  He died an agonizing death in Jerusalem. On Easter morning he rose into a glorified corporeal existence. For all eternity God is the man Jesus Christ.  Scripture simply does not allow us to think of time as irrelevant to the divine eternity, nor does it allow us to think of eternity as the nullification of time.  In the Incarnation, death, and resurrection of the eternal Logos, time has been redeemed and transformed. 

How we hold both of these commitments together is anybody's guess.  It's all speculation.  The Church has not dogmatized a specific construal of time and eternity.  Byzantine theologians speculate, Oriental Orthodox theologians speculate,  Catholic theologians speculate, Protestant theologians speculate.  We all speculate.  Do we know what we are talking about?  I seriously doubt it.

The one aspect about the Palamite approach to deity that I appreciate is the insistence that divine revelation must be allowed to form, and correct, our understanding of the divine being.  This insistence is not peculiar to Eastern theology.  One finds it in various Western theologians--Karl Barth, Wolfhart Pannenberg, Thomas F. Torrance, Robert Jenson, and Hans Urs von Balthasar immediately come to mind.  I am therefore intrigued by the suggestion that time is a divine energy or procession, but I have yet to see it unpacked in a way that I find comprehensible and convincing.  David Bradshaw's essay, cited above, is a good beginning but only a beginning.  I am intrigued.   

Part of the problem for me, of course, is trying to grasp the real significance of the essence/energies distinction.  What is the real point of this distinction?  What problem does it seek to solve?  St Gregory Palamas's concern seems clear:  he wanted to emphatically insist that the believer truly and fully experiences and participates in the divine life of the Holy Trinity yet without compromising the integrity of creaturehood.  Participation in the divine essence is impossible, says Gregory, because such participation could only mean absorption into deity and the multiplication of divine hypostases.  The essence/energies distinction seems to well address Gregory's concern:  God is both participle and imparticiple. God is both knowable and unknowable.  In the words of Fr John Meyendorff:  "The distinction between 'essence' and 'energy'--that focal point of Palamite theology--is nothing but a way of saying that the transcendent God remains transcendent, as He also communicates Himself to humanity."

But this distinction becomes problematic if it is construed as a separation between the essence and energies.  At this point we need to return to St Athanasius and remember the orthodox concerns that drove the fourth century debates on the Holy Trinity.  Specifically, we need to remember the confession of the Council of Nicaea:  Jesus Christ, the council declared, is homoousios (of one being) with the Father.  By this confession the Church insisted that in Jesus of Nazareth the eternal God has truly, definitively, irrevocably, absolutely communicated himself to mankind.  There is no other God lurking behind the back of the Crucified.  He who has seen Jesus has seen the Father.  The economic Trinity is identical to the eternal and immanent Trinity.  God's being and act are one and indivisible.  The story of Jesus in Israel is the story of God.  If we find that we must assert an ineffable distinction between the divine essence and energies, we must do so therefore in a way that does not compromise the Trinitarian economy of salvation. 
Logged

Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,959


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #204 on: February 15, 2011, 01:09:01 PM »


But this distinction becomes problematic if it is construed as a separation between the essence and energies.  At this point we need to return to St Athanasius and remember the orthodox concerns that drove the fourth century debates on the Holy Trinity.  Specifically, we need to remember the confession of the Council of Nicaea:  Jesus Christ, the council declared, is homoousios (of one being) with the Father.  By this confession the Church insisted that in Jesus of Nazareth the eternal God has truly, definitively, irrevocably, absolutely communicated himself to mankind.  There is no other God lurking behind the back of the Crucified.  He who has seen Jesus has seen the Father.  The economic Trinity is identical to the eternal and immanent Trinity.  God's being and act are one and indivisible.  The story of Jesus in Israel is the story of God.  If we find that we must assert an ineffable distinction between the divine essence and energies, we must do so therefore in a way that does not compromise the Trinitarian economy of salvation. 
I really like this. It is consonant with St. Paul's teaching that all the fullness of the Deity dwells in Jesus in bodily form.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #205 on: February 15, 2011, 04:23:07 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

In the Incarnation, death, and resurrection of the eternal Logos, time has been redeemed and transformed. 





Participation in the divine essence is impossible, says Gregory, because such participation could only mean absorption into deity and the multiplication of divine hypostases.  The essence/energies distinction seems to well address Gregory's concern:  God is both participle and imparticiple. God is both knowable and unknowable.  In the words of Fr John Meyendorff:  "The distinction between 'essence' and 'energy'--that focal point of Palamite theology--is nothing but a way of saying that the transcendent God remains transcendent, as He also communicates Himself to humanity."

But this distinction becomes problematic if it is construed as a separation between the essence and energies.  At this point we need to return to St Athanasius and remember the orthodox concerns that drove the fourth century debates on the Holy Trinity.  Specifically, we need to remember the confession of the Council of Nicaea:  Jesus Christ, the council declared, is homoousios (of one being) with the Father.  By this confession the Church insisted that in Jesus of Nazareth the eternal God has truly, definitively, irrevocably, absolutely communicated himself to mankind.  There is no other God lurking behind the back of the Crucified.  He who has seen Jesus has seen the Father.  The economic Trinity is identical to the eternal and immanent Trinity.  God's being and act are one and indivisible.  The story of Jesus in Israel is the story of God.  If we find that we must assert an ineffable distinction between the divine essence and energies, we must do so therefore in a way that does not compromise the Trinitarian economy of salvation. 

^^ Brilliant! Thank you for adding a bit of sense to this discussion.  The concept of distinction and separation is indeed fundamental in Orthodox Theology.  We should be careful to accept distinctions without implicit separations, which is precisely the Oriental Orthodox take on the matter. 

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
minasoliman
Mr., Sir, Dude, Guy, Male, tr. Minas in Greek, Menes in white people Egyptologists :-P
Section Moderator
Merarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic Orthodox Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 8,892


Pray for me, Sts. Mina & Kyrillos VI for my exams


WWW
« Reply #206 on: February 15, 2011, 08:42:09 PM »

I have tried to understand time and eternity for the past 30+ years, and I think I understand less now than I did when I started.  I have no idea what time is, and I certainly do not know what eternity is.  As one who cut his theological eye teeth on both Robert W. Jenson, I am open to the assertion that time, in some sense, is a manifestation of God.  But I honestly do not understand these matters.  Here are my ignorant musings:

All Christian reflection on time and eternity must respect, in my judgment, two theological commitments:  (1) God created the world out of nothing.  (2) The biblical story of salvation is the story of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; and this story is truly the story of God.

The first commitment means that we simply cannot, willy nilly, project onto deity our temporal/spatial experience of the world  The second commitment means that we cannot know deity by abstraction from the history of God with us in Jesus of Nazareth.  God was born into the world.  He breathed and ate and walked and slept.  He died an agonizing death in Jerusalem. On Easter morning he rose into a glorified corporeal existence. For all eternity God is the man Jesus Christ.  Scripture simply does not allow us to think of time as irrelevant to the divine eternity, nor does it allow us to think of eternity as the nullification of time.  In the Incarnation, death, and resurrection of the eternal Logos, time has been redeemed and transformed. 

How we hold both of these commitments together is anybody's guess.  It's all speculation.  The Church has not dogmatized a specific construal of time and eternity.  Byzantine theologians speculate, Oriental Orthodox theologians speculate,  Catholic theologians speculate, Protestant theologians speculate.  We all speculate.  Do we know what we are talking about?  I seriously doubt it.

The one aspect about the Palamite approach to deity that I appreciate is the insistence that divine revelation must be allowed to form, and correct, our understanding of the divine being.  This insistence is not peculiar to Eastern theology.  One finds it in various Western theologians--Karl Barth, Wolfhart Pannenberg, Thomas F. Torrance, Robert Jenson, and Hans Urs von Balthasar immediately come to mind.  I am therefore intrigued by the suggestion that time is a divine energy or procession, but I have yet to see it unpacked in a way that I find comprehensible and convincing.  David Bradshaw's essay, cited above, is a good beginning but only a beginning.  I am intrigued.   

Part of the problem for me, of course, is trying to grasp the real significance of the essence/energies distinction.  What is the real point of this distinction?  What problem does it seek to solve?  St Gregory Palamas's concern seems clear:  he wanted to emphatically insist that the believer truly and fully experiences and participates in the divine life of the Holy Trinity yet without compromising the integrity of creaturehood.  Participation in the divine essence is impossible, says Gregory, because such participation could only mean absorption into deity and the multiplication of divine hypostases.  The essence/energies distinction seems to well address Gregory's concern:  God is both participle and imparticiple. God is both knowable and unknowable.  In the words of Fr John Meyendorff:  "The distinction between 'essence' and 'energy'--that focal point of Palamite theology--is nothing but a way of saying that the transcendent God remains transcendent, as He also communicates Himself to humanity."

But this distinction becomes problematic if it is construed as a separation between the essence and energies.  At this point we need to return to St Athanasius and remember the orthodox concerns that drove the fourth century debates on the Holy Trinity.  Specifically, we need to remember the confession of the Council of Nicaea:  Jesus Christ, the council declared, is homoousios (of one being) with the Father.  By this confession the Church insisted that in Jesus of Nazareth the eternal God has truly, definitively, irrevocably, absolutely communicated himself to mankind.  There is no other God lurking behind the back of the Crucified.  He who has seen Jesus has seen the Father.  The economic Trinity is identical to the eternal and immanent Trinity.  God's being and act are one and indivisible.  The story of Jesus in Israel is the story of God.  If we find that we must assert an ineffable distinction between the divine essence and energies, we must do so therefore in a way that does not compromise the Trinitarian economy of salvation. 

Amen!  Everything you write here I believe every Orthodox would agree to.
Logged

Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
akimel
Fr Aidan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR (Western Rite)
Posts: 516



WWW
« Reply #207 on: February 16, 2011, 05:52:17 PM »

  Participation in the divine essence is impossible, says Gregory, because such participation could only mean absorption into deity and the multiplication of divine hypostases.  The essence/energies distinction seems to well address Gregory's concern:  God is both participle and imparticiple."

I just realized that I misspelled the bolded words above:  they should be spelled participable and imparticipable
Logged

Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #208 on: February 17, 2011, 04:30:27 PM »

But this distinction becomes problematic if it is construed as a separation between the essence and energies. 
Agreed.  And even a cursory reading of St. Gregory Palamas' writings shows that the real distinction between essence and energy does not involve a real separation between these two realities.

On the subject of "unpacking" the idea that time is a divine procession, I think it is better not to unpack this idea, but to simply affirm it as Pseudo-Dionysios does in The Divine Names.  In fact, the moment that a person thinks he grasps an ineffable mystery of God is the moment he has lost sight of what has been hymned, for - to quote St. Gregory of Nyssa in his homilies on Ecclesiastes - "when reason confronts that which transcends reason, it is time to be silent and marvel at his unutterable power which cannot be explained."
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #209 on: February 17, 2011, 04:36:45 PM »

My understanding is - at least according to St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Gregory Palamas - that "godhead" or "divinity" is a divine energy (see St. Gregory of Nyssa, Ad Ablabium; and St. Gregory Palamas, Capita Physica, nos. 105-106).  The divine essence cannot be known or characterized in any way at all.
Are you sure you are not Buddhist? The way you describe the Divine Essene, is that it's not only no-thing, but nothing.
There is nothing Buddhist at all in what I am saying, because unlike a Buddhist I affirm - at least to a limited degree - that God's energies can be experienced.  The divine essence is superessential and incommunicable, which is why it cannot be known at all by any creature, but God's energies reveal His inherent powers, and this is - as St. Basil points out in his letters (234 and 235) - a real knowledge of God.
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #210 on: February 17, 2011, 04:50:57 PM »

My understanding is - at least according to St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Gregory Palamas - that "godhead" or "divinity" is a divine energy (see St. Gregory of Nyssa, Ad Ablabium; and St. Gregory Palamas, Capita Physica, nos. 105-106).  The divine essence cannot be known or characterized in any way at all.
The way you describe the Divine Essene, is that it's not only no-thing, but nothing.
I am simply rejecting the idea that there is an analogy between the divine nature and created nature, or between the divine being and created being, for as St. Gregory said:  ". . . if God is nature, other things are not nature; but if every other thing is nature, He is not a nature, just as He is not a being if all other things are beings.  And if He is a being, then all other things are not beings" (Capita Physica, no. 78).
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #211 on: February 17, 2011, 04:54:17 PM »

I love the following quotation from St. Nikodemos:  "There is a paradoxical dimension whereby we can say that God is both in everything and everything and yet is essentially in nothing and nothing (of created nature); and by the same token, God is known to all by all things, and yet He remains essentially unknown, for He is not truly known by anything nor by anyone."
« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 05:04:38 PM by Apotheoun » Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #212 on: February 17, 2011, 05:07:47 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

 The divine essence is superessential and incommunicable, which is why it cannot be known at all by any creature

So what about in the Divine Mysteries, specifically the Offering, is not the unified Divine-Human Person of Jesus Christ actually and really present in the Blood and Body on the Altar?  Isn't  this the theosis involved with receiving the Communion and the Blood and Body of Christ?

Isn't this why we chant and affirm, "Amen, Amen, Amen, I confess and believe that truly this is He" ?

stay blessed,
habt selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #213 on: February 17, 2011, 05:51:13 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

 The divine essence is superessential and incommunicable, which is why it cannot be known at all by any creature

So what about in the Divine Mysteries, specifically the Offering, is not the unified Divine-Human Person of Jesus Christ actually and really present in the Blood and Body on the Altar?  Isn't  this the theosis involved with receiving the Communion and the Blood and Body of Christ?

Isn't this why we chant and affirm, "Amen, Amen, Amen, I confess and believe that truly this is He" ?

stay blessed,
habt selassie
The fact that the divine essence is utterly transcendent does not prevent man from experiencing the divine mysteries.  After all, the sacraments contain divine energy.
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Apotheoun
"Three realities pertain to God: essence, energy, and the triad of divine hypostaseis." St. Gregory Palamas
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Melkite Catholic
Posts: 1,388


St. John Maximovitch


WWW
« Reply #214 on: February 17, 2011, 05:52:47 PM »

Isn't this why we chant and affirm, "Amen, Amen, Amen, I confess and believe that truly this is He" ?

stay blessed,
habt selassie
To experience the divine energies is to experience God.  I suggest you read St. Basil's letters 234 and 235, which I referenced in an earlier post.
Logged

"All that the Father has belongs likewise to the Son, except Causality."
St. Gregory Nazianzen

"We should believe that divine grace is present in the icon of Christ and that it communicates sanctification to those who draw near with faith."
St. Theodore Studite
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 11,959


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #215 on: February 17, 2011, 07:29:45 PM »

My understanding is - at least according to St. Gregory of Nyssa and St. Gregory Palamas - that "godhead" or "divinity" is a divine energy (see St. Gregory of Nyssa, Ad Ablabium; and St. Gregory Palamas, Capita Physica, nos. 105-106).  The divine essence cannot be known or characterized in any way at all.
Are you sure you are not Buddhist? The way you describe the Divine Essene, is that it's not only no-thing, but nothing.
There is nothing Buddhist at all in what I am saying, because unlike a Buddhist I affirm - at least to a limited degree - that God's energies can be experienced.  The divine essence is superessential and incommunicable, which is why it cannot be known at all by any creature, but God's energies reveal His inherent powers, and this is - as St. Basil points out in his letters (234 and 235) - a real knowledge of God.
But you can't affirm existence of God's essence, so you make the energies into rays without a source. Again, are you sure you are not Buddhist?
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
akimel
Fr Aidan
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR (Western Rite)
Posts: 516



WWW
« Reply #216 on: February 17, 2011, 11:55:06 PM »

But you can't affirm existence of God's essence, so you make the energies into rays without a source. Again, are you sure you are not Buddhist?

Papist, I do not understand your claim that Apotheoun's apophaticism is equivalent to Buddhism. 
Logged

Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.169 seconds with 64 queries.