OrthodoxChristianity.net
November 26, 2014, 01:56:16 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Do Moslems worship the same God?  (Read 5502 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2012, 12:59:22 AM »

No, they do not. You cannot worship God while denying Christ, who after all is God.

Exactly, and this is the same for modern Jews, as well as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. You cannot deny Jesus Christ as both God and Man, and still say you worship the same God as Christians. We worship the Holy Trinity, Father Son and Holy Spirit. Being monotheistic and Abrahamic doesn't mean they worship the same God as us.

So just how many gods are there? If there is only the One, then a path might certainly be faulty, but God can't be more.

There are many false gods that are no gods at all. There is only one true God and only one true Faith and one true Church. Everyone outside the church either misunderstands God or worships completely different gods.

Everyone doesn't worship the same God, that is heresy and Unitarianism/Ecumenism.

Everyone doesn't worship the same God in complete truth and understanding. But any sincere attempt to reach out to God is ultimately a striving to that One God; no matter how flawed the doctrine. Never said all religions are equal in such efforts, so I don't know how that is Unitarianism/Ecemenism, but I guess labels are cool.

Would all you polytheists please identify yourselves, and I'll make some cool labels for you

Hello pool, here I come! <splash!>
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 01:00:07 AM by Riddikulus » Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
88Devin12
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: AOCA
Posts: 4,928



« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2012, 01:15:30 AM »

No, they do not. You cannot worship God while denying Christ, who after all is God.

Exactly, and this is the same for modern Jews, as well as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. You cannot deny Jesus Christ as both God and Man, and still say you worship the same God as Christians. We worship the Holy Trinity, Father Son and Holy Spirit. Being monotheistic and Abrahamic doesn't mean they worship the same God as us.

So just how many gods are there? If there is only the One, then a path might certainly be faulty, but God can't be more.

Why can't it be that Christianity actually has it right and all the other religions do not? That's what I believe, anyway. I thought we all believed that, not this "anything that someone calls 'god' is actually God" business. That kind of thinking rubs me the wrong way, to put it mildly.

Ok - let's try again...

I never said that Christianity doesn't actually have it right and that other religions have it wrong.... Oh heck. Why do I bother? I'm going for a swim. laugh



From what I understood, you were saying that there is only one God, and every religion (but Orthodoxy) worships him, but they misunderstand him and his true nature.

This is kind of troublesome though, especially when you look at religions like Buddhism which doesn't have a belief in any God or gods. Or Atheism and Humanism which is basically a rejection of any God or gods, and is actually more of self-worship. Its also a bit difficult to argue that when you have a polytheistic religion, since you would have to determine which one of the many polytheistic gods is God himself?

St. Paul used the "Unknown God" to get their attention and as a springboard to teach them about Christ. The traditional practice of the Church isn't to tell someone how they are wrong, but rather to focus on how they are right, and how Christ is the fulfillment of their faith. Such as talking to Taoists about the Tao, and how Christ is the true fulfillment of the Tao. Yet I don't think this means that the Taoists are still worshiping the one true God. Yet they are misled and are worshiping a false god, while some of their theology retains a hint of truth, they still don't have the full truth and don't worship the same God that we do.

In order to worship the same God we worship, they must accept the theological truths we know about God, which have been outlined pretty well in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed. Every Christian group adheres to that, and thus we worship the same God, but those who don't accept it, don't worship the same God that we do, even if they do harbor some amount of truth in their faith.
Logged
Theophilos78
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2012, 06:32:49 AM »

Muslims worship the God of the Jews.

I shall pray that Elohim YHWH not strike you because of this blasphemous statement.

Muslims do not worship the God of the Jews. They actually try to replace the God of the Jews with another god:

God said to Moses, “I am that I am.” And he said, “You must say this to the Israelites, ‘I am has sent me to you.’” God also said to Moses, “You must say this to the Israelites, ‘The Lord – the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob – has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is my memorial from generation to generation.’ (Exodus 3:14-15)

Or were ye present when death came to Jacob, when he said unto his sons: What will ye worship after me? They said: We shall worship thy God, the God of thy fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, One God, and unto Him we have surrendered. (Surah 2:133)

You see the difference?  Roll Eyes

Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,594


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #48 on: February 16, 2012, 02:07:04 PM »

It might be the same name, but it can not be the same God.

God, through Christ says love. Allah says smite the infidel. Sorry, cant be the same.

A name makes not the individual.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #49 on: February 16, 2012, 02:19:41 PM »

What they believe about God dictates how they worship Him. With that said, they do not worship the same God as we do.
Logged
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #50 on: February 16, 2012, 05:14:16 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

God or God(s) or G-d or god or non-existent god(s) all this discussion is rather silly isn't it?

We know that simply stated, there is only ONE GOD.  So whenever folks rely on the Grace of the Divine, even if it just to merely exist breathing in the vitality of the Giver of Life, surely it is God.  It is not Satan or the demons or non-existent god(s) which give life, which sustain Creation, which brings about each rising Dawn.  We in Rastafari say "birds in the treetops" to imply that even simple things like the birds singing their morning bird songs are part of the intricacies of God's workings, or as the Elders have said, "Even if there is just a bird in the treetops, it is God Almighty to put that bird flying up in there."  Whether or not the bird is cognizant of this fact is irrelevant to the workings of God which are impartial to recognition.
 
 We call this Synergy in the Church right? God cooperates with His Creation, and all of Creation is a reaction to God, even if we or they don't realize it.  Faith is to learn to understand who God is.  The Church is the depth of this relationship, where one comes to understand who God is and that Sin is what naturally separates humanity from God, and reconciliation is only achievable in the Church, through Grace and the synergy of Repentance.  However, God is not somehow limited to the Church.  Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, even Atheists surely all live in the realm of God, with the one and same Kingdom of God ever at hand.  Now let me be very clear, ONLY IN THE CHURCH CAN WE ACHIEVE SALVATION, however this should not negate the reality that folks outside the Church have experience, and yes, even a relationship with God.  There are surely enough CONVERTS on this forum to vouch this to be true, or were converts having absolutely no connection or relationship with God possible until Baptism? If not, what brought us into the Church in the first place?

That being said, I think the analysis of Muslims as being simply another Christian heresy and rightful anachronism from the 7Th century Christological debates is fairly accurate.  Even Joseph Campbell makes this same assertion, concluding that the Muslim cry of "God is One" was a reaction to all the Oriental and Byzantine Christological debates.  This makes sense.  Further, Islam evolved in the crucible of competing Arab yet Jewish monarchies and kingdoms in Yemen and the Arabian peninsula, so further it is debatable to suggest that Muslims worship the God the Jews, which is what they themselves claim as worshiping the God of Abraham and Moses, and yes, Jesus too. 

Are Muslims sometimes energized by Satan? Yes, of course.  However so are we Christians, whenever we yield to temptation and Sin.  When we sin we are not worshiping the Devil, and neither are Muslims when they are like ourselves energized from Satan.  The catch, is can they also be energized by God? I would say yes, as can and is all life which has the Breath of Life given by God.  The very fact that any Muslim is alive and breathing is a testimony of the mercy of God.  We should then pray that they learn in time to come to God in repentance just as we all need to do continually.

So we should readjust our assumptions.  It is not that Muslims worship the Devil, rather they simply do not worship God in the current lawful manner according to the New Covenant of the Church.  ALL the world must inevitably come to the Church, Muslims included, the question we inside the Church need to ask is will be ready and receptive when God brings them to us?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
primuspilus
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America - Western Rite Orthodox
Posts: 6,594


Inserting personal quote here.


WWW
« Reply #51 on: February 16, 2012, 05:18:50 PM »

Ok, in light of Habte's post I will adjust my opinion.

The god muslims worship does not exist.

PP
Logged

"I confidently affirm that whoever calls himself Universal Bishop is the precursor of Antichrist"
Gregory the Great

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must also be eastern." St. John Maximovitch, The Wonderworker
88Devin12
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: AOCA
Posts: 4,928



« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2012, 05:30:39 PM »

Ok, in light of Habte's post I will adjust my opinion.

The god muslims worship does not exist.

PP

I do think this is appropriate to clarify. Other religions who worship other gods, their gods don't exist, because there is only one God, but they do not worship him.
Logged
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,930



« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2012, 05:44:03 PM »

We seem to be hopping from the subjective to the objective and back again.

Objectively, there is only one God, the Triune God of the Church.

Subjectively, many religions over time have tried to worship God but have understood him differently. While their instinct and intent is in the right direction, their imperfect understanding does not elevate their God to equality with the Christian Triune God.
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2012, 05:50:21 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

We seem to be hopping from the subjective to the objective and back again.

Objectively, there is only one God, the Triune God of the Church.

Subjectively, many religions over time have tried to worship God but have understood him differently. While their instinct and intent is in the right direction, their imperfect understanding does not elevate their God to equality with the Christian Triune God.

Wouldn't it be better in the context of Jews and Muslims who worship the God of Abraham to say that "their imperfect understand does not elevate their relationship with God to equality with the Christian relationship with Triune God?

Again, what about converts? Was their relationship with a non-existent God before coming rightfully into the Church?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2012, 06:01:04 PM »

Ok, in light of Habte's post I will adjust my opinion.

The god muslims worship does not exist.

PP

I do think this is appropriate to clarify. Other religions who worship other gods, their gods don't exist, because there is only one God, but they do not worship him.

I'm sure I'm going to regret trying to make this point again.

Right, there is only One God. All of mans' worship rituals are attempts to reach to Him - the One God - no matter how murky the mode of transport appears. Without receiving the correct revelation, it's driving in the dark.

That innate need to worship comes from somewhere, is prompted from a spiritual hunger in mankind. Without receiving the set of instructions on how to do it, it runs into massive error and weirdness it is true, but mans' attempts at worship, not matter how foolish, no matter how flawed, are all aimed at the One and Only, even if they are not aware of it! It's programmed into us. If it wasn't early man would have left their dead to the teeth of wild animals instead of burying them with religious ritual. And they did that long before anyone knew there was the One True God, not knowing Who it was they were trying to worship!

Muslims, like so many, are in that driving in the dark situation, spiritual beings seeking spiritual succour; attempting to reach out in worship the One, but failing because they don't recognise that they don't have the revelation of how to do it.

Same God, because there is only One; corrupted understanding of Who He is and what He wants.


 
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,930



« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2012, 06:25:21 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

We seem to be hopping from the subjective to the objective and back again.

Objectively, there is only one God, the Triune God of the Church.

Subjectively, many religions over time have tried to worship God but have understood him differently. While their instinct and intent is in the right direction, their imperfect understanding does not elevate their God to equality with the Christian Triune God.

Wouldn't it be better in the context of Jews and Muslims who worship the God of Abraham to say that "their imperfect understand does not elevate their relationship with God to equality with the Christian relationship with Triune God?

Again, what about converts? Was their relationship with a non-existent God before coming rightfully into the Church?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Certainly, "their God" is shorthand for your formulation. However, I do think that just because one worships God does not mean that one's understanding of God is equally valid with all others'. Ergo, subjectively the God of all who are not Christians is not the same God, while at the same time there is indeed one true God who is understood and worshiped differently by others. Riddikulus described the heterodox situation rather well in Reply 55 above.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 06:27:36 PM by Second Chance » Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #57 on: February 16, 2012, 06:47:49 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

We seem to be hopping from the subjective to the objective and back again.

Objectively, there is only one God, the Triune God of the Church.

Subjectively, many religions over time have tried to worship God but have understood him differently. While their instinct and intent is in the right direction, their imperfect understanding does not elevate their God to equality with the Christian Triune God.

Wouldn't it be better in the context of Jews and Muslims who worship the God of Abraham to say that "their imperfect understand does not elevate their relationship with God to equality with the Christian relationship with Triune God?

Again, what about converts? Was their relationship with a non-existent God before coming rightfully into the Church?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Certainly, "their God" is shorthand for your formulation. However, I do think that just because one worships God does not mean that one's understanding of God is equally valid with all others'. Ergo, subjectively the God of all who are not Christians is not the same God, while at the same time there is indeed one true God who is understood and worshiped differently by others. Riddikulus described the heterodox situation rather well in Reply 55 above.

Thanks, Second Chance. I agree, and the bolded bit is what I have been trying to emphasise. (Badly, I guess!  Undecided) To keep saying that people who don't worship correctly don't worship the same God, vaguely smacks of polytheism. Of course, no one is claiming such a thing, but the wording could be confusing to onlookers.

Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #58 on: February 16, 2012, 07:13:40 PM »

How does it "smack of polytheism"? I admit no other God than the One God, the uncreated and undivided Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Spirit. This is the One God that there is. If you have another, guess what? You're not worshiping God.

I disagree with this notion that somehow everyone else is just "not worshiping correctly". Go ahead and ask a Muslim or a Jew or a Hindu or any other non-Christian about their worship; they'll certainly tell you that they are worshiping correctly (and probably, as a corollary, that you are not). But certainly God is not a relativistic Being, and the worship of Him is not a matter of one's perspective. The Muslims, et al. actively reject our God (who is the ONLY GOD that there is); they do not simply have a case of spiritual myopia, so all language about how they "just don't see clearly" or are "driving at night" seeks only to trivialize the very real differences between us and them that are at the center of their religion (lam yalid wa lam yulad, anybody?), and for what? So that we can assert an untenable position because they and we are both able to count to one? That's no great accomplishment. God established that millennia before Muhammad ever existed.

No matter how you spin it, Muslims DO NOT worship God. They worship Muhammad's shallow and self-serving recension of God, written down in his accursed book full of fables and blasphemy, which he based on his garbling of Jewish and apocryphal Christian legends and stories (e.g., the Arabic Infancy Gospels that were popular in Arabia around his time; funnily, Muhammad's version removes all traces of Christ's divinity which were in the originals, replacing them with Islam-buttressing nonsense and then claiming that such revelation "came from God"; right...and I'm the reincarnation of Abu Lahab, you charlatan... Roll Eyes)
Logged

username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,070



« Reply #59 on: February 16, 2012, 07:21:07 PM »

To say that all religions are akin to various paths to the same truth is wrong to say if you are a Christian.
To say all religions worship the same god as an Orthodox Christian is to say that Christ wasn't God and didn't come into the world to save sinners, die on the cross, the tomb, the resurrection on the third day and ascension into Heaven. 

Logged

Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #60 on: February 16, 2012, 07:32:36 PM »

Ok - wasting my time, here.  laugh Love you all, but you aren't getting what I'm saying. Nevermind. Worse things happen at sea. Hope nice days are had all round.
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Delphine
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 136



« Reply #61 on: February 16, 2012, 07:53:00 PM »

I've been nodding my head to everything you've said, Riddikulus. Smiley

Wouldn't it be better in the context of Jews and Muslims who worship the God of Abraham to say that "their imperfect understand does not elevate their relationship with God to equality with the Christian relationship with Triune God?

Again, what about converts? Was their relationship with a non-existent God before coming rightfully into the Church?

I think this is a good question to ask. Many people are worshipping God with the best information they have. Once they get better/correct information, their relationship with God would certainly become more fufilling as they come to better know who God is, but I think that if someone is earnestly seeking out God, no matter how flawed their information, God will make Himself known. A Muslim or Hindu will recognize the work of God and give Him credit. If they convert, I think they would look back on those past experiences and find them to be just as meaningful, if not more since they now see with greater clarity...
Logged
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #62 on: February 16, 2012, 08:20:23 PM »

I've been nodding my head to everything you've said, Riddikulus. Smiley

Thanks be to God! I thought I was bashing my head against the moniter, here! I'm not sure how plainer I can put it and still people are misunderstanding. Oh well, hey nonny nonny.  laugh

Wouldn't it be better in the context of Jews and Muslims who worship the God of Abraham to say that "their imperfect understand does not elevate their relationship with God to equality with the Christian relationship with Triune God?

Again, what about converts? Was their relationship with a non-existent God before coming rightfully into the Church?

I think this is a good question to ask. Many people are worshipping God with the best information they have. Once they get better/correct information, their relationship with God would certainly become more fufilling as they come to better know who God is, but I think that if someone is earnestly seeking out God, no matter how flawed their information, God will make Himself known. A Muslim or Hindu will recognize the work of God and give Him credit. If they convert, I think they would look back on those past experiences and find them to be just as meaningful, if not more since they now see with greater clarity...

Yes, and I think the danger in claiming that "those other people worship another god" has a tendancy to make us feel good about the place we are at; not always, but there is that danger of seeing ourselves on the right team, and anyone who isn't... Well, we can overlook their efforts to reach God as infantile, weird or plain evil without recognising the desire that is innate in human kind to reach out in worship to the very God we worship.

But that is what mankind has done throughout history, sought the One in various forms of religion. Not saying any of those religions are valid and shouldn't be overthrown by the revelation of Christ, but that the innate need to seek Him is in all mankind.

I also think that there is merit in being able to say to someone; "You know that God you seek to worship, well I know Him, too, but I believe something else about Him. What do you think about <insert Gospel message here>?"
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,070



« Reply #63 on: February 16, 2012, 08:23:16 PM »

Ok - wasting my time, here.  laugh Love you all, but you aren't getting what I'm saying. Nevermind. Worse things happen at sea. Hope nice days are had all round.

Don't get all upset!  Long story short,what I wrote should be completed with the fact that I gather we are to evangelize and not judge.  Just sayin' nothing wrong with my statement because it isn't one said out of fear or loathing. 
Logged

Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #64 on: February 16, 2012, 08:34:29 PM »

Ok - wasting my time, here.  laugh Love you all, but you aren't getting what I'm saying. Nevermind. Worse things happen at sea. Hope nice days are had all round.

Don't get all upset!  Long story short,what I wrote should be completed with the fact that I gather we are to evangelize and not judge.  Just sayin' nothing wrong with my statement because it isn't one said out of fear or loathing.  

What on earth makes you think that I'm "all upset"?  Huh And I didn't see your post as fear and loathing, just not getting my point. Huh

The point does come when someone sees that they are wasting time and energy. Nothing to do with being "all upset" or seeing fear and loathing in disgreement.

Some of us are beyond the point of being "all upset" because people don't get what we are talking about. Personally, I don't have the energy for being "all upset" at internet conversations that don't go according to Hoyle. I find it amusing rather than upsetting. We speak the same language, but understand the words differently. Nothing unusual or upsetting here. Happens all the time. That's why mankind goes to war over often imagined insults. Wink
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 08:40:09 PM by Riddikulus » Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,070



« Reply #65 on: February 16, 2012, 08:56:20 PM »

Ok - wasting my time, here.  laugh Love you all, but you aren't getting what I'm saying. Nevermind. Worse things happen at sea. Hope nice days are had all round.

Don't get all upset!  Long story short,what I wrote should be completed with the fact that I gather we are to evangelize and not judge.  Just sayin' nothing wrong with my statement because it isn't one said out of fear or loathing.  

What on earth makes you think that I'm "all upset"?  Huh And I didn't see your post as fear and loathing, just not getting my point. Huh

The point does come when someone sees that they are wasting time and energy. Nothing to do with being "all upset" or seeing fear and loathing in disgreement.

Some of us are beyond the point of being "all upset" because people don't get what we are talking about. Personally, I don't have the energy for being "all upset" at internet conversations that don't go according to Hoyle. I find it amusing rather than upsetting. We speak the same language, but understand the words differently. Nothing unusual or upsetting here. Happens all the time. That's why mankind goes to war over often imagined insults. Wink

ok I was using the word upset in the internet sense lol
The point is to respect other people's beliefs and if we really follow the two words Christ said the most in the Gospels (love and forgive) and if we all put each other first then we'd have a happier world.   Wait, that's what Christ taught.
Logged

Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #66 on: February 16, 2012, 09:06:56 PM »

Ok - wasting my time, here.  laugh Love you all, but you aren't getting what I'm saying. Nevermind. Worse things happen at sea. Hope nice days are had all round.

Don't get all upset!  Long story short,what I wrote should be completed with the fact that I gather we are to evangelize and not judge.  Just sayin' nothing wrong with my statement because it isn't one said out of fear or loathing.  

What on earth makes you think that I'm "all upset"?  Huh And I didn't see your post as fear and loathing, just not getting my point. Huh

The point does come when someone sees that they are wasting time and energy. Nothing to do with being "all upset" or seeing fear and loathing in disgreement.

Some of us are beyond the point of being "all upset" because people don't get what we are talking about. Personally, I don't have the energy for being "all upset" at internet conversations that don't go according to Hoyle. I find it amusing rather than upsetting. We speak the same language, but understand the words differently. Nothing unusual or upsetting here. Happens all the time. That's why mankind goes to war over often imagined insults. Wink

ok I was using the word upset in the internet sense lol
The point is to respect other people's beliefs and if we really follow the two words Christ said the most in the Gospels (love and forgive) and if we all put each other first then we'd have a happier world.   Wait, that's what Christ taught.


  Smiley

edited to add:

Not sure that it's necessarily a respect of other people's beliefs, but the person's right to them; and loving and forgiving them their errors. If that makes any sense. Huh I mean, there are some barbaric beliefs that needed and still need to be eradicated, not respected. Wink

« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 09:15:47 PM by Riddikulus » Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,070



« Reply #67 on: February 16, 2012, 09:22:51 PM »

Ok - wasting my time, here.  laugh Love you all, but you aren't getting what I'm saying. Nevermind. Worse things happen at sea. Hope nice days are had all round.

Don't get all upset!  Long story short,what I wrote should be completed with the fact that I gather we are to evangelize and not judge.  Just sayin' nothing wrong with my statement because it isn't one said out of fear or loathing.  

What on earth makes you think that I'm "all upset"?  Huh And I didn't see your post as fear and loathing, just not getting my point. Huh

The point does come when someone sees that they are wasting time and energy. Nothing to do with being "all upset" or seeing fear and loathing in disgreement.

Some of us are beyond the point of being "all upset" because people don't get what we are talking about. Personally, I don't have the energy for being "all upset" at internet conversations that don't go according to Hoyle. I find it amusing rather than upsetting. We speak the same language, but understand the words differently. Nothing unusual or upsetting here. Happens all the time. That's why mankind goes to war over often imagined insults. Wink

ok I was using the word upset in the internet sense lol
The point is to respect other people's beliefs and if we really follow the two words Christ said the most in the Gospels (love and forgive) and if we all put each other first then we'd have a happier world.   Wait, that's what Christ taught.


  Smiley

edited to add:

Not sure that it's necessarily a respect of other people's beliefs, but the person's right to them; and loving and forgiving them their errors. If that makes any sense. Huh I mean, there are some barbaric beliefs that needed and still need to be eradicated, not respected. Wink



Yes you make sense.
Logged

dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #68 on: February 16, 2012, 09:46:46 PM »

I thought that the question of the thread was "Do Muslims worship the same God?", not "Do Muslims intend to worship God" or "Do Muslims have the right to their own religious beliefs". My posts in this thread would have been very different if those were the questions.
Logged

Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #69 on: February 16, 2012, 10:09:57 PM »

<sigh> My answer should be clear by now.  laugh Yes, they do. Their understanding of Him is different than ours, flawed by their lack of correct revelation; but there aren't a bunch of different Gods for each mistaken concept of Him. To quote Highlander; There Can Only Be One!
The human drive to worship that One is inbuilt. Teachings on Him are driven off course by incorrect understanding and wild spectulations; His idenity is obscured by those still in the dark, but the math remains the same!
 
Isn't the concept of the Orthodox God different than the Southern Baptist, the Calvinist, the Fundamentalist? Does that difference make different Gods?

(Goes off to bang head against wall for fear of damaging monitor!)
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 10:13:44 PM by Riddikulus » Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
username!
Section Moderator
Protokentarchos
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Ukrainian Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Pennsylvaniadoxy
Posts: 5,070



« Reply #70 on: February 16, 2012, 10:15:24 PM »

So what you are saying is



Things like the inquisition and crusades don't effectively "change their hearts and minds?" Tongue
Logged

Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #71 on: February 16, 2012, 10:19:32 PM »

So what you are saying is



Things like the inquisition and crusades don't effectively "change their hearts and minds?" Tongue

 laugh laugh laugh

Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #72 on: February 16, 2012, 10:30:17 PM »

Uh..I'm not really wanting to start this up again, Riddikulus. I only posted that because it seems like much of the disagreement in this thread comes from different people approaching the question from different perspectives, to the point where it could be argued that we are probably addressing different questions. To me, the existence of other religions and other beliefs about God does not change the fact that there is only one God. If someone said that Barrack Obama is a large Samoan man who sells real estate in Florida, I'd let him keep believing that but it wouldn't change the fact that he's actually the President of the United States. And if that same person adored him, nay, worshiped him for his real estate-selling abilities, I would not recognize that person as worshiping the actual Barrack Obama, because it is clear that the man would be worshiping something of his own making, not the real person.

And, again, the verses in the Bible that warn against worshiping or otherwise serving false gods really make very little sense to me if there are in fact no false gods, because everyone is just grabbing different parts of the same elephant or whatever hippie pseudo-aphorism is out there. So I say that there are false gods, and these include the god of the Muslim, the god of the Hindu, the god of the ____, etc. Truly there is only ONE GOD, but there are as many false gods as there are people to fashion them.

« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 10:30:56 PM by dzheremi » Logged

88Devin12
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: AOCA
Posts: 4,928



« Reply #73 on: February 16, 2012, 10:53:19 PM »

We need to be clear on definitions here. Here is how I personally define these terms...

Heterodox: Christians outside the Orthodox Church, still identifying with the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, but with slight errors in theology
Heretic: Christians outside the Orthodox Church, still identifying with the Nicene Creed, but with serious errors in theology (all heretics are heterodox).
Non-Christian: Anyone outside the Orthodox Church who do not identify with the Nicene Creed (all non-Christians are heterodox and heretical).

Non-Christians do not worship the same God as we do. Only those who accept the Nicene Creed worship the same God as us.

There is only one God... But that doesn't mean everyone worships him in different ways, that is blasphemy.
There is no other God but God, our Lord, the Holy Trinity. Yet these other religions worship false gods, gods that do not exist. The Greeks didn't worship God, they worshipped Zeus, Hera, Poseidon and so many other false gods. The Romans didn't worship God, they worshiped Mars, Jupiter, Pluto, Venus and many other false gods. The Canaanites worshiped Baal and Asherah, they didn't worship God. The Jews worship a god they call YHWH, but not God. The Hindus worship many "devas", but not God. The Atheists worship themselves, not God.

The gods these faiths worship are not God, the gods these faiths worship do not exist and never will exist, they are worshiping false gods, false idols.
Logged
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #74 on: February 16, 2012, 10:59:17 PM »

Uh..I'm not really wanting to start this up again, Riddikulus. I only posted that because it seems like much of the disagreement in this thread comes from different people approaching the question from different perspectives, to the point where it could be argued that we are probably addressing different questions. To me, the existence of other religions and other beliefs about God does not change the fact that there is only one God. If someone said that Barrack Obama is a large Samoan man who sells real estate in Florida, I'd let him keep believing that but it wouldn't change the fact that he's actually the President of the United States. And if that same person adored him, nay, worshiped him for his real estate-selling abilities, I would not recognize that person as worshiping the actual Barrack Obama, because it is clear that the man would be worshiping something of his own making, not the real person.

And, again, the verses in the Bible that warn against worshiping or otherwise serving false gods really make very little sense to me if there are in fact no false gods, because everyone is just grabbing different parts of the same elephant or whatever hippie pseudo-aphorism is out there. So I say that there are false gods, and these include the god of the Muslim, the god of the Hindu, the god of the ____, etc. Truly there is only ONE GOD, but there are as many false gods as there are people to fashion them.



dzheremi,

We are really going nowhere, wouldn't you say? Best to agree to disagree and with a handshake go onto something else. Smiley
Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
Riddikulus
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Posts: 4,788



« Reply #75 on: February 16, 2012, 11:03:23 PM »

We need to be clear on definitions here. Here is how I personally define these terms...

Heterodox: Christians outside the Orthodox Church, still identifying with the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, but with slight errors in theology
Heretic: Christians outside the Orthodox Church, still identifying with the Nicene Creed, but with serious errors in theology (all heretics are heterodox).
Non-Christian: Anyone outside the Orthodox Church who do not identify with the Nicene Creed (all non-Christians are heterodox and heretical).

Non-Christians do not worship the same God as we do. Only those who accept the Nicene Creed worship the same God as us.

There is only one God... But that doesn't mean everyone worships him in different ways, that is blasphemy.
There is no other God but God, our Lord, the Holy Trinity. Yet these other religions worship false gods, gods that do not exist. The Greeks didn't worship God, they worshipped Zeus, Hera, Poseidon and so many other false gods. The Romans didn't worship God, they worshiped Mars, Jupiter, Pluto, Venus and many other false gods. The Canaanites worshiped Baal and Asherah, they didn't worship God. The Jews worship a god they call YHWH, but not God. The Hindus worship many "devas", but not God. The Atheists worship themselves, not God.

The gods these faiths worship are not God, the gods these faiths worship do not exist and never will exist, they are worshiping false gods, false idols.

Devin,

You really aren't getting my point and perhaps that's my fault. So let's just agree to disagree.  Cos, I have other stuff to do. Smiley
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 11:03:42 PM by Riddikulus » Logged

I believe in One God, maker of heaven and earth and of all things visible and invisible.

Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution.
Theodosius Dobzhansky, Russian Orthodox Christian (1900-1975)
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #76 on: February 16, 2012, 11:26:44 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Non-Christians do not worship the same God as we do. Only those who accept the Nicene Creed worship the same God as us.


So Who brought them to conversion if or when they come to the Church?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
TheMathematician
Warned
OC.net guru
*******
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: American
Posts: 1,548


Formerly known as Montalo


« Reply #77 on: February 16, 2012, 11:34:55 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Non-Christians do not worship the same God as we do. Only those who accept the Nicene Creed worship the same God as us.


So Who brought them to conversion if or when they come to the Church?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
and also, which version of the Creed. the one with or without the filioque?
Logged
Delphine
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 136



« Reply #78 on: February 16, 2012, 11:39:26 PM »

In the adult catechism Entering the Orthodox Church, on pgs. 44-45, Metropolitan Hierotheos goes into specifics about how Confucians, Hindus, ancient Greeks and Romans, and of course Jews, awaited a redeemer, some even prophesying a "God-man". It's very interesting, and shows that even with incomplete, incorrect information, people of various faiths still reach out and desire God - the only true God there is.

Quote from: Metropolitan of Nafpaktos Hierotheos
Men always longed for salvation and, for this reason, expected redemption and a savior. They had the memory of a blessed life, while at the same time experiencing the tragedy of life, with death, sicknesses, wars, hatred of other men and so on. This is why they expected a Redeemer. The whole of mankind hoped for a Redeemer God .... So, the God who all human beings expected throughout the ages was Christ.

I don't see how saying everyone worships God in different ways is blasphemy. Everyone worships with the knowledge they have. I don't see anybody saying that because we worship the same God, all faiths will let you come to know Him equally. So let's say I believe President Barrack Obama is actually a large Samoan man who sells real estate in Florida. I run into him at the supermarket and have a nice, long conversation with him. I may be completely wrong about who he is (other than knowing he exists, he's a man, and several other things), I'll probably misinterpret many of the things he says because of my incorrect assumptions, but I'm still talking to Barrack Obama. I'll understand the conversation a lot better once I get my facts straight, but the encounter still occurred.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 11:42:17 PM by Delphine » Logged
Andrew21091
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,271



« Reply #79 on: February 16, 2012, 11:44:58 PM »

Muslims worship the God of the Jews.

Well, even though they do not know it, Christ is the God of the Jews, of the Muslims, and everyone else.

I believe Muslims do worship God. I believe that most religions do but each has different understanding on who God is. I don't think the Average Joe Muslim who knows nothing of Christianity can be blamed at all for the errors of Muhammad. I think to say that they don't worship God is cruel. There is only one God, and I believe many people sincerely worship Him in the way that they only know.
Logged
Andrew21091
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,271



« Reply #80 on: February 16, 2012, 11:49:42 PM »

I believe its blasphemous to think that we own God.

By owning, I mean in the sense that many here believe that Christians and probably just the Orthodox are the only ones who God listens to.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 11:50:32 PM by Andrew21091 » Logged
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #81 on: February 16, 2012, 11:52:15 PM »

On a different board that I used to post on, there was a lovely man from Saudi Arabia who strove to live as a Christian while remaining outwardly a Muslim due to his country's laws against conversion that would result in his execution. In fact, he even described himself as "a Christian soul in Muslim flesh" or something similar. And from all I could tell from interactions with him there, both public and private, he was definitely a better Christian than I am.

The fact that he identified as Muslim was, for me, not a problem, as he was effectively living outside of the bounds of Islam in his private worship and devotion to Christ, the Only-Begotten Son of God. So it is with all the false religions of the world: Certainly people strive to worship God in them, but it is only effectively outside of them that they can truly do so. I truly do believe that God does call those trapped in situations like these (in false religions) to worship Him, but again, the key is that within Islamic (or Jewish, or Shinto, or whatever) orthodoxy, they cannot do so. It is not a limitation of God, as though God cannot call all to Him, but it is a limitation of their false religions and the constraints placed on those within them. So there are cases where a(n individual) Muslim or what have you does worship God, but no cases in which a non-Christian may do so within the bounds of their non-Christian religion. These cases do not vindicate non-Christian religions or their conceptions of God so much as prove the power of the Lord to call out and use whomever He sees fit to make worthy (e.g., deceivers like Jacob, reluctant people like Moses, adulterers like David, etc).
Logged

HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #82 on: February 17, 2012, 12:00:23 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Nobody here has tried to vindicate other religions, however, many folks, myself included, have expressed the sentiments that it is both incredulous and even pretentious for anyone to assume that any person, group, or faith has power to control or limit the power of the Almighty God.  If God wants to talk to Muslims and atheist alike, are y'all going to stop Him?  
St. John of Damascus says that Islam (the sect of the "Saracens") is a heresy of Christianity.  

Thank you Father, I agree with this, could you perhaps quote or reference this for clarification?  I think if we all begin to think of Islam as a Christian heresy we may be a bit more polite and less demonizing in our discussions, heretics need prayer and love to bring them to God, not fire and brimstone preaching.


Again though, my question has yet to be fully addressed, if only within the Church can folks worship God, how do folks outside the Church ever convert? Who invites them in if not the Holy Spirit, and if the Holy Spirit invites even them that are outside to come in by God's Grace, how can we then say that God only acts inside the Church hence limiting the Almighty God as if we controlled access to Him instead of Him controlling our access.

I think its safer for us simply to promote the Truth of Christianity without having to resort to political style attack ads against folks outside the Church, surely God speaks well enough for Himself, that is, unless folks honestly think He doesn't talk to anyone but themselves Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 12:04:45 AM by HabteSelassie » Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,611



« Reply #83 on: February 17, 2012, 12:01:35 AM »

St. John of Damascus says that Islam (the sect of the "Saracens") is a heresy of Christianity.  They worship the same God but have a wrong view of Him.   That is different than Hindus who have their top 50 list of favorite gods, or atheists of the church of scientism who worship a presumably infinite amount of finite numbers, or self-proclaimed accidental phyletists who worship a finite but sizeable list of past romanian communist leaders.  
Logged
dzheremi
No longer posting here.
Warned
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Coptic
Posts: 4,383


« Reply #84 on: February 17, 2012, 12:14:43 AM »

Nobody here has tried to vindicate other religions

Stating that other religions worship the same God as we do in Christianity in effect vindicates them as other paths to that same God.

Quote
however, many folks, myself included, have expressed the sentiments that it is both incredulous and even pretentious for anyone to assume that any person, group, or faith has power to control or limit the power of the Almighty God.  If God wants to talk to Muslims and atheist alike, are y'all going to stop Him?
 

I think I just said in my previous reply that God calls whom He wills. Again, it is not about limits on God (as there aren't any), but limits that other religions place on their adherents' ability to embrace the true God, e.g., in Islam their god is all powerful BUT does not beget. We know that's nonsense.

Quote
Again though, my question has yet to be addressed, if only within the Church can folks worship God, how do folks outside the Church ever convert? Who invites them in if not the Holy Spirit, and if the Holy Spirit invites even them that are outside to come in by God's Grace, how can we then say that God only acts inside the Church hence limiting the Almighty God as if we controlled access to Him instead of Him controlling our access.

Again, this was actually just addressed in my previous reply. Just because those outside of Christianity don't worship God doesn't mean that God doesn't call them to worship Him. But in Islam they reject Him in favor of their own recension, in Judaism they reject Him and still await their political/military messiah, etc. When they stop rejecting Him (and leave Islam, Judaism, etc. for Christianity), then we can talk about them as worshiping the true God.

Quote
I think its safer for us simply to promote the Truth of Christianity without having to resort to political style attack ads against folks outside the Church, surely God speaks well enough for Himself, that is, unless folks honestly think He doesn't talk to anyone but themselves Wink

"Political-style attack ads"? You are such a ham...
Logged

GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,990


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #85 on: February 17, 2012, 12:22:49 AM »


Jews say the same thing.


It is not important what the Jews say. The only thing that matters in this debate is whether the Old Testament denies the doctrine of the Triune God. If we read the Tanakh, we see that it does not deny this idea, but supports it implicitly. However, we cannot say the same thing about the Qur'an. It explicitly equates the doctrine of the Triune God with paganism and polytheism.  Roll Eyes

 Not only is this spot on, it bears repeating; Christians worship the Triune God while Muslims call this blasphemy and equate it with polytheism.  Christianity and Islam are not two sides of the same coin; there are vast differences with Whom we worship being the beginning.  I was a practicing Muslim for nearly ten years and not one single Muslim, regardless of their affiliation (Sunni, Shia, Sufi...) would say we worship the same God.  Now there ain't no way we can wave a Theistic wand over each Muslim and know what's in their heart, but based on both of our traditions the answer is a resounding 'NO'- we do not worship the same God.  Yes there are many, many sincere Muslims, but you can be sincere and sincerely wrong.  I've said it a million times and I'll say it again- a good catechism is worth it's weight in gold.  
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
Ioannis Climacus
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 863


"There is no religion higher than TRUTH"


« Reply #86 on: February 17, 2012, 12:27:13 AM »

St. John of Damascus says that Islam (the sect of the "Saracens") is a heresy of Christianity.  They worship the same God but have a wrong view of Him.   That is different than Hindus who have their top 50 list of favorite gods, or atheists of the church of scientism who worship a presumably infinite amount of finite numbers, or self-proclaimed accidental phyletists who worship a finite but sizeable list of past romanian communist leaders.   
Father Bless!

But can it be said that heretics worship the same God as the Orthodox? In Step Five of the Ladder, St. John makes reference to the "godless Origen". Does heretical distortion of God render the object of adoration something else entirely?

Of course, I have not looked into this in much detail, so I could very well be mistaken.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 12:30:25 AM by Ioannis Climacus » Logged

Note : Many of my posts (especially the ones antedating late 2012) do not reflect charity, tact, or even views I presently hold. Please forgive me for any antagonism I have caused.
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #87 on: February 17, 2012, 12:51:02 AM »

Just a heresy though? That's really stretching it IMO.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
Andrew21091
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Posts: 1,271



« Reply #88 on: February 17, 2012, 12:58:00 AM »

Just a heresy though? That's really stretching it IMO.

Well, you could look at Islam as a faith that is Arianism, Nestorianism, Judaism, and Arab folk beliefs all meshed into one.
Logged
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,611



« Reply #89 on: February 17, 2012, 01:11:38 AM »

Nobody here has tried to vindicate other religions

Stating that other religions worship the same God as we do in Christianity in effect vindicates them as other paths to that same God.

Quote
however, many folks, myself included, have expressed the sentiments that it is both incredulous and even pretentious for anyone to assume that any person, group, or faith has power to control or limit the power of the Almighty God.  If God wants to talk to Muslims and atheist alike, are y'all going to stop Him?
 

I think I just said in my previous reply that God calls whom He wills. Again, it is not about limits on God (as there aren't any), but limits that other religions place on their adherents' ability to embrace the true God, e.g., in Islam their god is all powerful BUT does not beget. We know that's nonsense.

Quote
Again though, my question has yet to be addressed, if only within the Church can folks worship God, how do folks outside the Church ever convert? Who invites them in if not the Holy Spirit, and if the Holy Spirit invites even them that are outside to come in by God's Grace, how can we then say that God only acts inside the Church hence limiting the Almighty God as if we controlled access to Him instead of Him controlling our access.

Again, this was actually just addressed in my previous reply. Just because those outside of Christianity don't worship God doesn't mean that God doesn't call them to worship Him. But in Islam they reject Him in favor of their own recension, in Judaism they reject Him and still await their political/military messiah, etc. When they stop rejecting Him (and leave Islam, Judaism, etc. for Christianity), then we can talk about them as worshiping the true God.

Quote
I think its safer for us simply to promote the Truth of Christianity without having to resort to political style attack ads against folks outside the Church, surely God speaks well enough for Himself, that is, unless folks honestly think He doesn't talk to anyone but themselves Wink

"Political-style attack ads"? You are such a ham...

You added "as we do in Christianity," no one else said that. 
Logged
Tags:
Pages: « 1 2 3 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.165 seconds with 72 queries.