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Author Topic: Do Moslems worship the same God?  (Read 5053 times) Average Rating: 0
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Rdunbar123
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« on: February 09, 2011, 11:38:12 AM »

I am curious. There has been much "dialog" between Christians and Moslems, but where is the coomon Ground. God is revealed to us through scripture andTradition. God is revealed to Islam through the Koran, two vastly different revelations. Yes I know, Ghandi, that violence on both sides has been done in the name of religion, but nowhere in our New Testament is anything but kindness toward enemies is condoned. All monotheists don't necessarily worship the same God.
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« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2011, 12:12:33 PM »

Indeed not.
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« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2011, 12:36:46 PM »

I think the best that can be said is that there are some good-hearted Muslims who are seeking to worship the true God. It's a situation not unlike the one that the Apostle Paul found in Athens (Acts 17 NKJV):
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22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

      TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.

   Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.
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David 2007
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« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2011, 01:02:00 PM »

Yes they do.

All 'there is only one God' religions worship the same one God.

Of course, the various religions will say they are worshiping 'incorrectly'.

To say Moslems don't worship God the Father, is to say the Jews don't either, because they deny the Trinity as well.

It defies logic and is intellectually insulting to say Moslems don't worship the same God.

I'm willing to concede they are wrong, misguided and lead astray.... but if there is only one God... then how can seek to worship another?

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Rdunbar123
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« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2011, 01:24:06 PM »


So what you are saying, is the pharoh who worshipped the sun only, Aton , worshipped the same God?
I am not sure, but I believe the Moslems claim that the Jews and Christians have corrupted the old testament, so if or God is revealed through scripture, how can they share the same basis for faith?
Yes they do.

All 'there is only one God' religions worship the same one God.

Of course, the various religions will say they are worshiping 'incorrectly'.

To say Moslems don't worship God the Father, is to say the Jews don't either, because they deny the Trinity as well.

It defies logic and is intellectually insulting to say Moslems don't worship the same God.

I'm willing to concede they are wrong, misguided and lead astray.... but if there is only one God... then how can seek to worship another?


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« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2011, 01:25:45 PM »

Some say - yes, some say - no.
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« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2011, 01:28:48 PM »

I think the best that can be said is that there are some good-hearted Muslims who are seeking to worship the true God. It's a situation not unlike the one that the Apostle Paul found in Athens (Acts 17 NKJV):
Quote
22 Then Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:

      TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.

   Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands.

Good post. I tend to agree.

Theologically, however, The Muslim god is not the Christian God.

The Christian God has progressively revealed Himself as a trinitarian God that moves through His people, indwelling in them and revealing Himself dynamically in all of history through His Church (be it the NT Church, the Orthodox Catholic Church, or the OT Church, i.e., Israel.) He lives and acts in His assembly by grace.

The Muslim God is a singular God, not a trinity, whose ultimate revelation in through the last prophet Muhammad, and whose actual words, verbatim, are recorded in the Qur'an (this is why Muslims must learn Arabic. It is the language of God, and therefore the Qur'an must be read in Arabic). He does not indwell his people, the covenant Muslims, but rather rules over them through that which was revealed in the Qur'an, a system of laws and commandments.
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« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2011, 02:26:00 PM »

My take, for what it's worth, is that there is one God, one Truth, and one Faith.  There are some, like Muslims, Baptists, mystics, even atheists that may, whether it be in a religious function/belief or simply the activity of the will/intellect (as all people were created in the likeness of God), participate in some aspects of the one Truth...but by participating in only some aspects of the one Truth, they only have/live by partial Truths and therefore are not practicing the one Faith as revealed by God.  

The big question is to what degree of participation in the one Truth and one Faith is necessary to ensure salvation...but that is another question altogether.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2011, 02:27:36 PM by rimlyanin » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2011, 03:56:47 PM »


True, there is but ONE God.  However, not everyone, not every faith or religion pray to the one God.

People search....their heart knows God exists, but, many are confused and get lost.

"Then one said to Him, 'Lord, are there few who are saved?'   "And He said to them, 'Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’  "But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’ There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth...." Luke 13:23-28



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« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2011, 04:14:58 PM »

The Muslims say their God is not Jesus or the Holy spirit.

Christians say their God is the father, Jesus and the Holy spirit.

I think its clear.
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« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2011, 04:37:00 PM »


Doesn't Saint John of Damascus say that Christians  and Muslims worship the same God?   Of course, I stand to be corrected. Ialmisry could tell us about that.
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David 2007
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« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2011, 05:25:07 AM »

The Muslims say their God is not Jesus or the Holy spirit.

Jews say the same thing.

But I'm sure you are going to give them a pass.

Can't wait to read your justification.
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« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2011, 06:17:28 AM »

The Muslims say their God is not Jesus or the Holy spirit.

Jews say the same thing.

But I'm sure you are going to give them a pass.

Can't wait to read your justification.
The Church fathers I have read suggest that the Jews in fact, do not worship the same God (if anyone knows of any fathers who suggest otherwise, please share), so correlating them with Islam does not exactly help that argument.

"How dare Christians have the slightest intercourse with Jews! They are lustful, rapacious, greedy, perfidious bandits: pests of the universe! Their synagogue is a house of prostitution, the domicile of the devil, as is the soul of the Jew. As a matter of fact, Jews worship the devil; their religion is a disease, their synagogue an abyss of perdition. The rejection and dispersion of the Jews was done by the wrath of God because of His absolute abandonment of the Jews. God hates the Jews, and on Judgment Day will say to those who sympathize with them: "Depart from Me, for you have had intercourse with My murderers!" Flee, then, from their assemblies, fly from their houses, and hold their synagogue in hatred and aversion." - St. John Chrysostom (Eight Homilies Against the Jew)

"Jews are slayers of the Lord, murderers of the prophets, enemies and haters of God, adversaries of grace, enemies of their father's faith, advocates of the devil, a brood of vipers, slanderers, scoffers, men of darkened minds, the leaven of Pharisees, a congregation of demons, sinners, wicked men, haters of goodness!" - St. Gregory of Nyssa
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« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2011, 06:41:54 AM »


Jews say the same thing.


It is not important what the Jews say. The only thing that matters in this debate is whether the Old Testament denies the doctrine of the Triune God. If we read the Tanakh, we see that it does not deny this idea, but supports it implicitly. However, we cannot say the same thing about the Qur'an. It explicitly equates the doctrine of the Triune God with paganism and polytheism.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2011, 06:43:05 AM »



"How dare Christians have the slightest intercourse with Jews! They are lustful, rapacious, greedy, perfidious bandits: pests of the universe! Their synagogue is a house of prostitution, the domicile of the devil, as is the soul of the Jew. As a matter of fact, Jews worship the devil; their religion is a disease, their synagogue an abyss of perdition. The rejection and dispersion of the Jews was done by the wrath of God because of His absolute abandonment of the Jews. God hates the Jews, and on Judgment Day will say to those who sympathize with them: "Depart from Me, for you have had intercourse with My murderers!" Flee, then, from their assemblies, fly from their houses, and hold their synagogue in hatred and aversion." - St. John Chrysostom (Eight Homilies Against the Jew)

"Jews are slayers of the Lord, murderers of the prophets, enemies and haters of God, adversaries of grace, enemies of their father's faith, advocates of the devil, a brood of vipers, slanderers, scoffers, men of darkened minds, the leaven of Pharisees, a congregation of demons, sinners, wicked men, haters of goodness!" - St. Gregory of Nyssa

Now we have a new question: Do Jews and Muslims worship the same devil?  laugh
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« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2011, 06:54:38 AM »



"How dare Christians have the slightest intercourse with Jews! They are lustful, rapacious, greedy, perfidious bandits: pests of the universe! Their synagogue is a house of prostitution, the domicile of the devil, as is the soul of the Jew. As a matter of fact, Jews worship the devil; their religion is a disease, their synagogue an abyss of perdition. The rejection and dispersion of the Jews was done by the wrath of God because of His absolute abandonment of the Jews. God hates the Jews, and on Judgment Day will say to those who sympathize with them: "Depart from Me, for you have had intercourse with My murderers!" Flee, then, from their assemblies, fly from their houses, and hold their synagogue in hatred and aversion." - St. John Chrysostom (Eight Homilies Against the Jew)

"Jews are slayers of the Lord, murderers of the prophets, enemies and haters of God, adversaries of grace, enemies of their father's faith, advocates of the devil, a brood of vipers, slanderers, scoffers, men of darkened minds, the leaven of Pharisees, a congregation of demons, sinners, wicked men, haters of goodness!" - St. Gregory of Nyssa

Now we have a new question: Do Jews and Muslims worship the same devil?  laugh
LOL  Cheesy
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« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2011, 09:41:34 AM »

The Muslims say their God is not Jesus or the Holy spirit.

Christians say their God is the father, Jesus and the Holy spirit.

I think its clear.

Muslims are worshipping the triune God, they just don't know it. Of course, they would say the reverse about us... (that we are worshipping Allah and we don't know it) Tongue
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« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2011, 09:44:33 AM »

The Muslims say their God is not Jesus or the Holy spirit.

Jews say the same thing.

But I'm sure you are going to give them a pass.

Can't wait to read your justification.
The Church fathers I have read suggest that the Jews in fact, do not worship the same God (if anyone knows of any fathers who suggest otherwise, please share), so correlating them with Islam does not exactly help that argument.

"How dare Christians have the slightest intercourse with Jews! They are lustful, rapacious, greedy, perfidious bandits: pests of the universe! Their synagogue is a house of prostitution, the domicile of the devil, as is the soul of the Jew. As a matter of fact, Jews worship the devil; their religion is a disease, their synagogue an abyss of perdition. The rejection and dispersion of the Jews was done by the wrath of God because of His absolute abandonment of the Jews. God hates the Jews, and on Judgment Day will say to those who sympathize with them: "Depart from Me, for you have had intercourse with My murderers!" Flee, then, from their assemblies, fly from their houses, and hold their synagogue in hatred and aversion." - St. John Chrysostom (Eight Homilies Against the Jew)

"Jews are slayers of the Lord, murderers of the prophets, enemies and haters of God, adversaries of grace, enemies of their father's faith, advocates of the devil, a brood of vipers, slanderers, scoffers, men of darkened minds, the leaven of Pharisees, a congregation of demons, sinners, wicked men, haters of goodness!" - St. Gregory of Nyssa

Ah yes, Martin Luther had plenty of patristics to support his anti-semitism...(and Hitler too!)
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« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2011, 10:03:54 AM »


Muslims are worshipping the triune God, they just don't know it. Of course, they would say the reverse about us... (that we are worshipping Allah and we don't know it) Tongue

Is it possible and accurate to say that the Egyptians at the time of the Exodus worshipped YHWH, but did not know it?  Tongue
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« Reply #19 on: February 11, 2011, 10:12:42 AM »


Muslims are worshipping the triune God, they just don't know it. Of course, they would say the reverse about us... (that we are worshipping Allah and we don't know it) Tongue

Is it possible and accurate to say that the Egyptians at the time of the Exodus worshipped YHWH, but did not know it?  Tongue

Well, to the extent that people worship a deity, they are worshipping God (or at least attempting to). Whether God actually accepts that worship is something else entirely. Of course, the argument may be made that they are worshipping the devil as well, and perhaps there is a 'tipping point' where worship rendered to a deity goes from one side to the other, based on how closely the idealized god represents the true God. I do think that it is a gray area though.
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« Reply #20 on: February 11, 2011, 10:15:17 AM »


Well, to the extent that people worship a deity, they are worshipping God (or at least attempting to). Whether God actually accepts that worship is something else entirely. Of course, the argument may be made that they are worshipping the devil as well, and perhaps there is a 'tipping point' where worship rendered to a deity goes from one side to the other, based on how closely the idealized god represents the true God. I do think that it is a gray area though.

This reponse takes us to the distinction between the true God and false gods and once more poses this question: Do Muslims worship the true God?  Grin
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« Reply #21 on: February 11, 2011, 10:20:41 AM »


Well, to the extent that people worship a deity, they are worshipping God (or at least attempting to). Whether God actually accepts that worship is something else entirely. Of course, the argument may be made that they are worshipping the devil as well, and perhaps there is a 'tipping point' where worship rendered to a deity goes from one side to the other, based on how closely the idealized god represents the true God. I do think that it is a gray area though.

This reponse takes us to the distinction between the true God and false gods and once more poses this question: Do Muslims worship the true God?  Grin

I think they try to the best way they know how. Again, I think the question that matters is whether God takes their sincerity into account, and judges them according to the light which they have been given.
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« Reply #22 on: February 11, 2011, 10:25:47 AM »


I think they try to the best way they know how. Again, I think the question that matters is whether God takes their sincerity into account, and judges them according to the light which they have been given.

I think one's good intention is not sufficient.

How can I reach the city of Rome if I keep telling people that I am on the way to Paris and if I make every effort to reach Paris instead of Rome, without knowing that my destination is actually Rome?  Grin
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« Reply #23 on: February 11, 2011, 10:44:16 AM »

I would say not. The reason why is that Islam is originally a Christian heresy, and Mohammad was deceived by the Devil appearing as Gabriel, who dictated the Koran. While the great majority of Arabs once worshiped the Trinity, now they worship a false and non-existant deity.

They can't be worshiping the Trinity because the Trinity can only be worshiped via Christ. Further, Allah is not the same as God the Father, even though they share some properties in common.

I believe that those religions which are not aware of Christ (tribal religions, the cult of the "Unknown God" in Acts, pre-Christian religions, etc.) may be worshiping the Trinity, because they have never rejected the Trinity. But Islam is aware of the truth of Christ and the Trinity, and explicitly rejects it, so I don't see how they can be worshiping a God that they reject.

That is not to say they are not responding to the universal human desire to worship the Trinity, but that does not constitute worshiping the Trinity in fact, IMO.
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« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2011, 02:31:12 PM »

The Trinity exists whether we worship it correctly or not.

You could have endless infighting within ones own church about who is doing something correctly or not.

God doesn't flow from the Christian teachings, the Christian teachings are a pale reflection of the majesty of God.

imho.

But most people prefer dogma and bible worship to worshiping God.

I could be a moron with a low IQ, completely not understand the concept of the trinity, yet pray to God above.

Would I then be a heretic for not fully grasping the dogma?
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« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2011, 02:59:20 PM »



...but, there is a difference between not grasping something, and outright rejecting something.
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« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2011, 03:38:39 PM »

I am aware of an ongoing debate among Catholics (and Orthodox?) regarding the fact (teaching) that there is no salvation outside of the (Catholic) Church.  If we assume this to be true, then what about people who might live in some distant, uncivilized and uncolonized corner of the earth, have never been exposed to Revelation, have never (been given the opportunity to have) taken the Eucharist, or most importantly, have never been (given the opportunity to be) Baptized?  Are such people then doomed with no possibility of getting to heaven since they are outside the Church?  Or are there 'other ways' for people to be saved, e.g. Baptism of Fire, or Baptism of Desire?  Some argue yes and some argue no.  But if there are such 'other ways', what about Muslims or others that may have had the opportunity to hear the Truth and learn of the true Faith but denied it, is there any other way to salvation for them??
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« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2011, 03:41:35 PM »

^ we do not know, that is up to the grace of God Who is abundantly merciful and compassionate towards mankind.
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« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2012, 09:00:22 PM »

Yes they do.

All 'there is only one God' religions worship the same one God.

Of course, the various religions will say they are worshiping 'incorrectly'.

To say Moslems don't worship God the Father, is to say the Jews don't either, because they deny the Trinity as well.

It defies logic and is intellectually insulting to say Moslems don't worship the same God.

I'm willing to concede they are wrong, misguided and lead astray.... but if there is only one God... then how can seek to worship another?



I am sorry, but I totally disagree. Just because a religion is monotheistic does not make it the same God. Sects of Hinduism, for instance, are monotheistic, and I don't think anyone here would agree that Shiva or Vishnu or Kali are the same God.
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« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2012, 09:17:52 PM »

Yes they do.

All 'there is only one God' religions worship the same one God.

Of course, the various religions will say they are worshiping 'incorrectly'.

To say Moslems don't worship God the Father, is to say the Jews don't either, because they deny the Trinity as well.

It defies logic and is intellectually insulting to say Moslems don't worship the same God.

I'm willing to concede they are wrong, misguided and lead astray.... but if there is only one God... then how can seek to worship another?



I am sorry, but I totally disagree. Just because a religion is monotheistic does not make it the same God. Sects of Hinduism, for instance, are monotheistic, and I don't think anyone here would agree that Shiva or Vishnu or Kali are the same God.

All theists are reaching for that One God, and success depends on what revelation they have received. No matter that a particular sect's understanding is a confused and incorrect understanding of just Who that One God is, there is only One God to reach for. So yes, Muslims do worship the same God; but their understanding of Him is incorrect, so He might look warped enough to look like another god to us. Still the One God, though.

That is what David2007 was saying.
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« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2012, 09:25:55 PM »

Muslims worship the God of the Jews.
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« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2012, 09:31:33 PM »

I agree with those answering in the negative per John 5:23: "He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him."

But how do we reconcile that with the fact that the Fathers have said that the Greeks worshiped the Trinity through their belief in the One and in His Logos? And that other Orthodox thinkers have said that Buddha, Lao Tzu, et al. were prophets of Christ? How can pagan worship have its fulfillment in Christ if pagan worship, according to many Fathers and hagiography, is worship offered to Satan and his demons?
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« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2012, 09:34:07 PM »

Muslims worship the God of the Jews.

More and more, they sort of remind me of the so-called messianic Jews. Except they don't see Christ as God.
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« Reply #33 on: February 15, 2012, 09:45:57 PM »

I agree with those answering in the negative per John 5:23: "He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him."

But how do we reconcile that with the fact that the Fathers have said that the Greeks worshiped the Trinity through their belief in the One and in His Logos? And that other Orthodox thinkers have said that Buddha, Lao Tzu, et al. were prophets of Christ? How can pagan worship have its fulfillment in Christ if pagan worship, according to many Fathers and hagiography, is worship offered to Satan and his demons?

There may be little to no fulfillment in pagan/muslim worship in the Christian sense, but honouring the One God correctly isn't part of the question heading.

If someone says they know my Dad, but obviously to me they are claiming incorrect things about him, has that multiplied my Dad? He remains one and those people who claim incorrect things about him can't have a fulfilling relationship with him.

Muslim misunderstandings on the One God might lead them on a path that meanders, but the God at the end of the path can only be One.
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« Reply #34 on: February 15, 2012, 10:01:28 PM »

Riddikulus, what do you think of John 5:23, quoted in my previous post?
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« Reply #35 on: February 15, 2012, 10:06:28 PM »

No, they do not. You cannot worship God while denying Christ, who after all is God.
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« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2012, 10:10:40 PM »

No, they do not. You cannot worship God while denying Christ, who after all is God.

Exactly, and this is the same for modern Jews, as well as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. You cannot deny Jesus Christ as both God and Man, and still say you worship the same God as Christians. We worship the Holy Trinity, Father Son and Holy Spirit. Being monotheistic and Abrahamic doesn't mean they worship the same God as us.
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« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2012, 10:15:20 PM »

No, they do not. You cannot worship God while denying Christ, who after all is God.

Exactly, and this is the same for modern Jews, as well as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. You cannot deny Jesus Christ as both God and Man, and still say you worship the same God as Christians. We worship the Holy Trinity, Father Son and Holy Spirit. Being monotheistic and Abrahamic doesn't mean they worship the same God as us.

^^^ This.
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« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2012, 10:17:47 PM »

I say that: If the Jews worship the game God as we do, then the Muslims do as well. If they dont, then the Muslims dont either.
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« Reply #39 on: February 15, 2012, 10:22:52 PM »

Riddikulus, what do you think of John 5:23, quoted in my previous post?

Naturally, I agree with St John. Worship offered to a misunderstood God is flawed and not fulfilling in the sense of what worship to the One God is to be. That doesn't mean that He isn't the same God, just that people have a flawed understanding of Him. Muslims, no less that anyone, reach out to know the One God, offering limited and faulty honour to Him.

Then, we all have different and sometimes flawed understandings regarding God even as Orthodox Christians; even as we get to know Him better. But at the end of the day, there is but One God, he isn't multiplied by the flawed doctrine of the Muslims, JWs, Mormons, Southern Baptists, or anyone else.

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« Reply #40 on: February 15, 2012, 10:25:05 PM »

No, they do not. You cannot worship God while denying Christ, who after all is God.

Exactly, and this is the same for modern Jews, as well as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. You cannot deny Jesus Christ as both God and Man, and still say you worship the same God as Christians. We worship the Holy Trinity, Father Son and Holy Spirit. Being monotheistic and Abrahamic doesn't mean they worship the same God as us.

So just how many gods are there? If there is only the One, then a path might certainly be faulty, but God can't be more.
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« Reply #41 on: February 15, 2012, 10:36:50 PM »

No, they do not. You cannot worship God while denying Christ, who after all is God.

Exactly, and this is the same for modern Jews, as well as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. You cannot deny Jesus Christ as both God and Man, and still say you worship the same God as Christians. We worship the Holy Trinity, Father Son and Holy Spirit. Being monotheistic and Abrahamic doesn't mean they worship the same God as us.

So just how many gods are there? If there is only the One, then a path might certainly be faulty, but God can't be more.

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« Reply #42 on: February 15, 2012, 10:56:06 PM »

No, they do not. You cannot worship God while denying Christ, who after all is God.

Exactly, and this is the same for modern Jews, as well as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. You cannot deny Jesus Christ as both God and Man, and still say you worship the same God as Christians. We worship the Holy Trinity, Father Son and Holy Spirit. Being monotheistic and Abrahamic doesn't mean they worship the same God as us.

So just how many gods are there? If there is only the One, then a path might certainly be faulty, but God can't be more.

There are many false gods that are no gods at all. There is only one true God and only one true Faith and one true Church. Everyone outside the church either misunderstands God or worships completely different gods.

Everyone doesn't worship the same God, that is heresy and Unitarianism/Ecumenism.
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« Reply #43 on: February 16, 2012, 12:28:24 AM »

No, they do not. You cannot worship God while denying Christ, who after all is God.

Exactly, and this is the same for modern Jews, as well as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. You cannot deny Jesus Christ as both God and Man, and still say you worship the same God as Christians. We worship the Holy Trinity, Father Son and Holy Spirit. Being monotheistic and Abrahamic doesn't mean they worship the same God as us.

So just how many gods are there? If there is only the One, then a path might certainly be faulty, but God can't be more.

Wow...this kind of argument is like a flashback to my RC days. I didn't know Orthodox thought this way too.

Anyway, if there are no false gods by virtue of there only being one God to begin with, then what do we make of the many verses in both the Old and New Testaments that warn against following or worshiping or serving such false gods? Why can't it be that Christianity actually has it right and all the other religions do not? That's what I believe, anyway. I thought we all believed that, not this "anything that someone calls 'god' is actually God" business. That kind of thinking rubs me the wrong way, to put it mildly.
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« Reply #44 on: February 16, 2012, 12:51:28 AM »

No, they do not. You cannot worship God while denying Christ, who after all is God.

Exactly, and this is the same for modern Jews, as well as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. You cannot deny Jesus Christ as both God and Man, and still say you worship the same God as Christians. We worship the Holy Trinity, Father Son and Holy Spirit. Being monotheistic and Abrahamic doesn't mean they worship the same God as us.

So just how many gods are there? If there is only the One, then a path might certainly be faulty, but God can't be more.

Why can't it be that Christianity actually has it right and all the other religions do not? That's what I believe, anyway. I thought we all believed that, not this "anything that someone calls 'god' is actually God" business. That kind of thinking rubs me the wrong way, to put it mildly.

Ok - let's try again...

I never said that Christianity doesn't actually have it right and that other religions have it wrong.... Oh heck. Why do I bother? I'm going for a swim. laugh

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« Reply #45 on: February 16, 2012, 12:59:22 AM »

No, they do not. You cannot worship God while denying Christ, who after all is God.

Exactly, and this is the same for modern Jews, as well as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. You cannot deny Jesus Christ as both God and Man, and still say you worship the same God as Christians. We worship the Holy Trinity, Father Son and Holy Spirit. Being monotheistic and Abrahamic doesn't mean they worship the same God as us.

So just how many gods are there? If there is only the One, then a path might certainly be faulty, but God can't be more.

There are many false gods that are no gods at all. There is only one true God and only one true Faith and one true Church. Everyone outside the church either misunderstands God or worships completely different gods.

Everyone doesn't worship the same God, that is heresy and Unitarianism/Ecumenism.

Everyone doesn't worship the same God in complete truth and understanding. But any sincere attempt to reach out to God is ultimately a striving to that One God; no matter how flawed the doctrine. Never said all religions are equal in such efforts, so I don't know how that is Unitarianism/Ecemenism, but I guess labels are cool.

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« Reply #46 on: February 16, 2012, 01:15:30 AM »

No, they do not. You cannot worship God while denying Christ, who after all is God.

Exactly, and this is the same for modern Jews, as well as Jehovah's Witnesses and Mormons. You cannot deny Jesus Christ as both God and Man, and still say you worship the same God as Christians. We worship the Holy Trinity, Father Son and Holy Spirit. Being monotheistic and Abrahamic doesn't mean they worship the same God as us.

So just how many gods are there? If there is only the One, then a path might certainly be faulty, but God can't be more.

Why can't it be that Christianity actually has it right and all the other religions do not? That's what I believe, anyway. I thought we all believed that, not this "anything that someone calls 'god' is actually God" business. That kind of thinking rubs me the wrong way, to put it mildly.

Ok - let's try again...

I never said that Christianity doesn't actually have it right and that other religions have it wrong.... Oh heck. Why do I bother? I'm going for a swim. laugh



From what I understood, you were saying that there is only one God, and every religion (but Orthodoxy) worships him, but they misunderstand him and his true nature.

This is kind of troublesome though, especially when you look at religions like Buddhism which doesn't have a belief in any God or gods. Or Atheism and Humanism which is basically a rejection of any God or gods, and is actually more of self-worship. Its also a bit difficult to argue that when you have a polytheistic religion, since you would have to determine which one of the many polytheistic gods is God himself?

St. Paul used the "Unknown God" to get their attention and as a springboard to teach them about Christ. The traditional practice of the Church isn't to tell someone how they are wrong, but rather to focus on how they are right, and how Christ is the fulfillment of their faith. Such as talking to Taoists about the Tao, and how Christ is the true fulfillment of the Tao. Yet I don't think this means that the Taoists are still worshiping the one true God. Yet they are misled and are worshiping a false god, while some of their theology retains a hint of truth, they still don't have the full truth and don't worship the same God that we do.

In order to worship the same God we worship, they must accept the theological truths we know about God, which have been outlined pretty well in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed. Every Christian group adheres to that, and thus we worship the same God, but those who don't accept it, don't worship the same God that we do, even if they do harbor some amount of truth in their faith.
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« Reply #47 on: February 16, 2012, 06:32:49 AM »

Muslims worship the God of the Jews.

I shall pray that Elohim YHWH not strike you because of this blasphemous statement.

Muslims do not worship the God of the Jews. They actually try to replace the God of the Jews with another god:

God said to Moses, “I am that I am.” And he said, “You must say this to the Israelites, ‘I am has sent me to you.’” God also said to Moses, “You must say this to the Israelites, ‘The Lord – the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob – has sent me to you. This is my name forever, and this is my memorial from generation to generation.’ (Exodus 3:14-15)

Or were ye present when death came to Jacob, when he said unto his sons: What will ye worship after me? They said: We shall worship thy God, the God of thy fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, One God, and unto Him we have surrendered. (Surah 2:133)

You see the difference?  Roll Eyes

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« Reply #48 on: February 16, 2012, 02:07:04 PM »

It might be the same name, but it can not be the same God.

God, through Christ says love. Allah says smite the infidel. Sorry, cant be the same.

A name makes not the individual.

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« Reply #49 on: February 16, 2012, 02:19:41 PM »

What they believe about God dictates how they worship Him. With that said, they do not worship the same God as we do.
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« Reply #50 on: February 16, 2012, 05:14:16 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

God or God(s) or G-d or god or non-existent god(s) all this discussion is rather silly isn't it?

We know that simply stated, there is only ONE GOD.  So whenever folks rely on the Grace of the Divine, even if it just to merely exist breathing in the vitality of the Giver of Life, surely it is God.  It is not Satan or the demons or non-existent god(s) which give life, which sustain Creation, which brings about each rising Dawn.  We in Rastafari say "birds in the treetops" to imply that even simple things like the birds singing their morning bird songs are part of the intricacies of God's workings, or as the Elders have said, "Even if there is just a bird in the treetops, it is God Almighty to put that bird flying up in there."  Whether or not the bird is cognizant of this fact is irrelevant to the workings of God which are impartial to recognition.
 
 We call this Synergy in the Church right? God cooperates with His Creation, and all of Creation is a reaction to God, even if we or they don't realize it.  Faith is to learn to understand who God is.  The Church is the depth of this relationship, where one comes to understand who God is and that Sin is what naturally separates humanity from God, and reconciliation is only achievable in the Church, through Grace and the synergy of Repentance.  However, God is not somehow limited to the Church.  Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, even Atheists surely all live in the realm of God, with the one and same Kingdom of God ever at hand.  Now let me be very clear, ONLY IN THE CHURCH CAN WE ACHIEVE SALVATION, however this should not negate the reality that folks outside the Church have experience, and yes, even a relationship with God.  There are surely enough CONVERTS on this forum to vouch this to be true, or were converts having absolutely no connection or relationship with God possible until Baptism? If not, what brought us into the Church in the first place?

That being said, I think the analysis of Muslims as being simply another Christian heresy and rightful anachronism from the 7Th century Christological debates is fairly accurate.  Even Joseph Campbell makes this same assertion, concluding that the Muslim cry of "God is One" was a reaction to all the Oriental and Byzantine Christological debates.  This makes sense.  Further, Islam evolved in the crucible of competing Arab yet Jewish monarchies and kingdoms in Yemen and the Arabian peninsula, so further it is debatable to suggest that Muslims worship the God the Jews, which is what they themselves claim as worshiping the God of Abraham and Moses, and yes, Jesus too. 

Are Muslims sometimes energized by Satan? Yes, of course.  However so are we Christians, whenever we yield to temptation and Sin.  When we sin we are not worshiping the Devil, and neither are Muslims when they are like ourselves energized from Satan.  The catch, is can they also be energized by God? I would say yes, as can and is all life which has the Breath of Life given by God.  The very fact that any Muslim is alive and breathing is a testimony of the mercy of God.  We should then pray that they learn in time to come to God in repentance just as we all need to do continually.

So we should readjust our assumptions.  It is not that Muslims worship the Devil, rather they simply do not worship God in the current lawful manner according to the New Covenant of the Church.  ALL the world must inevitably come to the Church, Muslims included, the question we inside the Church need to ask is will be ready and receptive when God brings them to us?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #51 on: February 16, 2012, 05:18:50 PM »

Ok, in light of Habte's post I will adjust my opinion.

The god muslims worship does not exist.

PP
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« Reply #52 on: February 16, 2012, 05:30:39 PM »

Ok, in light of Habte's post I will adjust my opinion.

The god muslims worship does not exist.

PP

I do think this is appropriate to clarify. Other religions who worship other gods, their gods don't exist, because there is only one God, but they do not worship him.
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« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2012, 05:44:03 PM »

We seem to be hopping from the subjective to the objective and back again.

Objectively, there is only one God, the Triune God of the Church.

Subjectively, many religions over time have tried to worship God but have understood him differently. While their instinct and intent is in the right direction, their imperfect understanding does not elevate their God to equality with the Christian Triune God.
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« Reply #54 on: February 16, 2012, 05:50:21 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

We seem to be hopping from the subjective to the objective and back again.

Objectively, there is only one God, the Triune God of the Church.

Subjectively, many religions over time have tried to worship God but have understood him differently. While their instinct and intent is in the right direction, their imperfect understanding does not elevate their God to equality with the Christian Triune God.

Wouldn't it be better in the context of Jews and Muslims who worship the God of Abraham to say that "their imperfect understand does not elevate their relationship with God to equality with the Christian relationship with Triune God?

Again, what about converts? Was their relationship with a non-existent God before coming rightfully into the Church?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #55 on: February 16, 2012, 06:01:04 PM »

Ok, in light of Habte's post I will adjust my opinion.

The god muslims worship does not exist.

PP

I do think this is appropriate to clarify. Other religions who worship other gods, their gods don't exist, because there is only one God, but they do not worship him.

I'm sure I'm going to regret trying to make this point again.

Right, there is only One God. All of mans' worship rituals are attempts to reach to Him - the One God - no matter how murky the mode of transport appears. Without receiving the correct revelation, it's driving in the dark.

That innate need to worship comes from somewhere, is prompted from a spiritual hunger in mankind. Without receiving the set of instructions on how to do it, it runs into massive error and weirdness it is true, but mans' attempts at worship, not matter how foolish, no matter how flawed, are all aimed at the One and Only, even if they are not aware of it! It's programmed into us. If it wasn't early man would have left their dead to the teeth of wild animals instead of burying them with religious ritual. And they did that long before anyone knew there was the One True God, not knowing Who it was they were trying to worship!

Muslims, like so many, are in that driving in the dark situation, spiritual beings seeking spiritual succour; attempting to reach out in worship the One, but failing because they don't recognise that they don't have the revelation of how to do it.

Same God, because there is only One; corrupted understanding of Who He is and what He wants.


 
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« Reply #56 on: February 16, 2012, 06:25:21 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

We seem to be hopping from the subjective to the objective and back again.

Objectively, there is only one God, the Triune God of the Church.

Subjectively, many religions over time have tried to worship God but have understood him differently. While their instinct and intent is in the right direction, their imperfect understanding does not elevate their God to equality with the Christian Triune God.

Wouldn't it be better in the context of Jews and Muslims who worship the God of Abraham to say that "their imperfect understand does not elevate their relationship with God to equality with the Christian relationship with Triune God?

Again, what about converts? Was their relationship with a non-existent God before coming rightfully into the Church?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Certainly, "their God" is shorthand for your formulation. However, I do think that just because one worships God does not mean that one's understanding of God is equally valid with all others'. Ergo, subjectively the God of all who are not Christians is not the same God, while at the same time there is indeed one true God who is understood and worshiped differently by others. Riddikulus described the heterodox situation rather well in Reply 55 above.
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« Reply #57 on: February 16, 2012, 06:47:49 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

We seem to be hopping from the subjective to the objective and back again.

Objectively, there is only one God, the Triune God of the Church.

Subjectively, many religions over time have tried to worship God but have understood him differently. While their instinct and intent is in the right direction, their imperfect understanding does not elevate their God to equality with the Christian Triune God.

Wouldn't it be better in the context of Jews and Muslims who worship the God of Abraham to say that "their imperfect understand does not elevate their relationship with God to equality with the Christian relationship with Triune God?

Again, what about converts? Was their relationship with a non-existent God before coming rightfully into the Church?

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Certainly, "their God" is shorthand for your formulation. However, I do think that just because one worships God does not mean that one's understanding of God is equally valid with all others'. Ergo, subjectively the God of all who are not Christians is not the same God, while at the same time there is indeed one true God who is understood and worshiped differently by others. Riddikulus described the heterodox situation rather well in Reply 55 above.

Thanks, Second Chance. I agree, and the bolded bit is what I have been trying to emphasise. (Badly, I guess!  Undecided) To keep saying that people who don't worship correctly don't worship the same God, vaguely smacks of polytheism. Of course, no one is claiming such a thing, but the wording could be confusing to onlookers.

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« Reply #58 on: February 16, 2012, 07:13:40 PM »

How does it "smack of polytheism"? I admit no other God than the One God, the uncreated and undivided Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Spirit. This is the One God that there is. If you have another, guess what? You're not worshiping God.

I disagree with this notion that somehow everyone else is just "not worshiping correctly". Go ahead and ask a Muslim or a Jew or a Hindu or any other non-Christian about their worship; they'll certainly tell you that they are worshiping correctly (and probably, as a corollary, that you are not). But certainly God is not a relativistic Being, and the worship of Him is not a matter of one's perspective. The Muslims, et al. actively reject our God (who is the ONLY GOD that there is); they do not simply have a case of spiritual myopia, so all language about how they "just don't see clearly" or are "driving at night" seeks only to trivialize the very real differences between us and them that are at the center of their religion (lam yalid wa lam yulad, anybody?), and for what? So that we can assert an untenable position because they and we are both able to count to one? That's no great accomplishment. God established that millennia before Muhammad ever existed.

No matter how you spin it, Muslims DO NOT worship God. They worship Muhammad's shallow and self-serving recension of God, written down in his accursed book full of fables and blasphemy, which he based on his garbling of Jewish and apocryphal Christian legends and stories (e.g., the Arabic Infancy Gospels that were popular in Arabia around his time; funnily, Muhammad's version removes all traces of Christ's divinity which were in the originals, replacing them with Islam-buttressing nonsense and then claiming that such revelation "came from God"; right...and I'm the reincarnation of Abu Lahab, you charlatan... Roll Eyes)
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« Reply #59 on: February 16, 2012, 07:21:07 PM »

To say that all religions are akin to various paths to the same truth is wrong to say if you are a Christian.
To say all religions worship the same god as an Orthodox Christian is to say that Christ wasn't God and didn't come into the world to save sinners, die on the cross, the tomb, the resurrection on the third day and ascension into Heaven. 

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« Reply #60 on: February 16, 2012, 07:32:36 PM »

Ok - wasting my time, here.  laugh Love you all, but you aren't getting what I'm saying. Nevermind. Worse things happen at sea. Hope nice days are had all round.
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« Reply #61 on: February 16, 2012, 07:53:00 PM »

I've been nodding my head to everything you've said, Riddikulus. Smiley

Wouldn't it be better in the context of Jews and Muslims who worship the God of Abraham to say that "their imperfect understand does not elevate their relationship with God to equality with the Christian relationship with Triune God?

Again, what about converts? Was their relationship with a non-existent God before coming rightfully into the Church?

I think this is a good question to ask. Many people are worshipping God with the best information they have. Once they get better/correct information, their relationship with God would certainly become more fufilling as they come to better know who God is, but I think that if someone is earnestly seeking out God, no matter how flawed their information, God will make Himself known. A Muslim or Hindu will recognize the work of God and give Him credit. If they convert, I think they would look back on those past experiences and find them to be just as meaningful, if not more since they now see with greater clarity...
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« Reply #62 on: February 16, 2012, 08:20:23 PM »

I've been nodding my head to everything you've said, Riddikulus. Smiley

Thanks be to God! I thought I was bashing my head against the moniter, here! I'm not sure how plainer I can put it and still people are misunderstanding. Oh well, hey nonny nonny.  laugh

Wouldn't it be better in the context of Jews and Muslims who worship the God of Abraham to say that "their imperfect understand does not elevate their relationship with God to equality with the Christian relationship with Triune God?

Again, what about converts? Was their relationship with a non-existent God before coming rightfully into the Church?

I think this is a good question to ask. Many people are worshipping God with the best information they have. Once they get better/correct information, their relationship with God would certainly become more fufilling as they come to better know who God is, but I think that if someone is earnestly seeking out God, no matter how flawed their information, God will make Himself known. A Muslim or Hindu will recognize the work of God and give Him credit. If they convert, I think they would look back on those past experiences and find them to be just as meaningful, if not more since they now see with greater clarity...

Yes, and I think the danger in claiming that "those other people worship another god" has a tendancy to make us feel good about the place we are at; not always, but there is that danger of seeing ourselves on the right team, and anyone who isn't... Well, we can overlook their efforts to reach God as infantile, weird or plain evil without recognising the desire that is innate in human kind to reach out in worship to the very God we worship.

But that is what mankind has done throughout history, sought the One in various forms of religion. Not saying any of those religions are valid and shouldn't be overthrown by the revelation of Christ, but that the innate need to seek Him is in all mankind.

I also think that there is merit in being able to say to someone; "You know that God you seek to worship, well I know Him, too, but I believe something else about Him. What do you think about <insert Gospel message here>?"
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« Reply #63 on: February 16, 2012, 08:23:16 PM »

Ok - wasting my time, here.  laugh Love you all, but you aren't getting what I'm saying. Nevermind. Worse things happen at sea. Hope nice days are had all round.

Don't get all upset!  Long story short,what I wrote should be completed with the fact that I gather we are to evangelize and not judge.  Just sayin' nothing wrong with my statement because it isn't one said out of fear or loathing. 
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« Reply #64 on: February 16, 2012, 08:34:29 PM »

Ok - wasting my time, here.  laugh Love you all, but you aren't getting what I'm saying. Nevermind. Worse things happen at sea. Hope nice days are had all round.

Don't get all upset!  Long story short,what I wrote should be completed with the fact that I gather we are to evangelize and not judge.  Just sayin' nothing wrong with my statement because it isn't one said out of fear or loathing.  

What on earth makes you think that I'm "all upset"?  Huh And I didn't see your post as fear and loathing, just not getting my point. Huh

The point does come when someone sees that they are wasting time and energy. Nothing to do with being "all upset" or seeing fear and loathing in disgreement.

Some of us are beyond the point of being "all upset" because people don't get what we are talking about. Personally, I don't have the energy for being "all upset" at internet conversations that don't go according to Hoyle. I find it amusing rather than upsetting. We speak the same language, but understand the words differently. Nothing unusual or upsetting here. Happens all the time. That's why mankind goes to war over often imagined insults. Wink
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« Reply #65 on: February 16, 2012, 08:56:20 PM »

Ok - wasting my time, here.  laugh Love you all, but you aren't getting what I'm saying. Nevermind. Worse things happen at sea. Hope nice days are had all round.

Don't get all upset!  Long story short,what I wrote should be completed with the fact that I gather we are to evangelize and not judge.  Just sayin' nothing wrong with my statement because it isn't one said out of fear or loathing.  

What on earth makes you think that I'm "all upset"?  Huh And I didn't see your post as fear and loathing, just not getting my point. Huh

The point does come when someone sees that they are wasting time and energy. Nothing to do with being "all upset" or seeing fear and loathing in disgreement.

Some of us are beyond the point of being "all upset" because people don't get what we are talking about. Personally, I don't have the energy for being "all upset" at internet conversations that don't go according to Hoyle. I find it amusing rather than upsetting. We speak the same language, but understand the words differently. Nothing unusual or upsetting here. Happens all the time. That's why mankind goes to war over often imagined insults. Wink

ok I was using the word upset in the internet sense lol
The point is to respect other people's beliefs and if we really follow the two words Christ said the most in the Gospels (love and forgive) and if we all put each other first then we'd have a happier world.   Wait, that's what Christ taught.
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« Reply #66 on: February 16, 2012, 09:06:56 PM »

Ok - wasting my time, here.  laugh Love you all, but you aren't getting what I'm saying. Nevermind. Worse things happen at sea. Hope nice days are had all round.

Don't get all upset!  Long story short,what I wrote should be completed with the fact that I gather we are to evangelize and not judge.  Just sayin' nothing wrong with my statement because it isn't one said out of fear or loathing.  

What on earth makes you think that I'm "all upset"?  Huh And I didn't see your post as fear and loathing, just not getting my point. Huh

The point does come when someone sees that they are wasting time and energy. Nothing to do with being "all upset" or seeing fear and loathing in disgreement.

Some of us are beyond the point of being "all upset" because people don't get what we are talking about. Personally, I don't have the energy for being "all upset" at internet conversations that don't go according to Hoyle. I find it amusing rather than upsetting. We speak the same language, but understand the words differently. Nothing unusual or upsetting here. Happens all the time. That's why mankind goes to war over often imagined insults. Wink

ok I was using the word upset in the internet sense lol
The point is to respect other people's beliefs and if we really follow the two words Christ said the most in the Gospels (love and forgive) and if we all put each other first then we'd have a happier world.   Wait, that's what Christ taught.


  Smiley

edited to add:

Not sure that it's necessarily a respect of other people's beliefs, but the person's right to them; and loving and forgiving them their errors. If that makes any sense. Huh I mean, there are some barbaric beliefs that needed and still need to be eradicated, not respected. Wink

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« Reply #67 on: February 16, 2012, 09:22:51 PM »

Ok - wasting my time, here.  laugh Love you all, but you aren't getting what I'm saying. Nevermind. Worse things happen at sea. Hope nice days are had all round.

Don't get all upset!  Long story short,what I wrote should be completed with the fact that I gather we are to evangelize and not judge.  Just sayin' nothing wrong with my statement because it isn't one said out of fear or loathing.  

What on earth makes you think that I'm "all upset"?  Huh And I didn't see your post as fear and loathing, just not getting my point. Huh

The point does come when someone sees that they are wasting time and energy. Nothing to do with being "all upset" or seeing fear and loathing in disgreement.

Some of us are beyond the point of being "all upset" because people don't get what we are talking about. Personally, I don't have the energy for being "all upset" at internet conversations that don't go according to Hoyle. I find it amusing rather than upsetting. We speak the same language, but understand the words differently. Nothing unusual or upsetting here. Happens all the time. That's why mankind goes to war over often imagined insults. Wink

ok I was using the word upset in the internet sense lol
The point is to respect other people's beliefs and if we really follow the two words Christ said the most in the Gospels (love and forgive) and if we all put each other first then we'd have a happier world.   Wait, that's what Christ taught.


  Smiley

edited to add:

Not sure that it's necessarily a respect of other people's beliefs, but the person's right to them; and loving and forgiving them their errors. If that makes any sense. Huh I mean, there are some barbaric beliefs that needed and still need to be eradicated, not respected. Wink



Yes you make sense.
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« Reply #68 on: February 16, 2012, 09:46:46 PM »

I thought that the question of the thread was "Do Muslims worship the same God?", not "Do Muslims intend to worship God" or "Do Muslims have the right to their own religious beliefs". My posts in this thread would have been very different if those were the questions.
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« Reply #69 on: February 16, 2012, 10:09:57 PM »

<sigh> My answer should be clear by now.  laugh Yes, they do. Their understanding of Him is different than ours, flawed by their lack of correct revelation; but there aren't a bunch of different Gods for each mistaken concept of Him. To quote Highlander; There Can Only Be One!
The human drive to worship that One is inbuilt. Teachings on Him are driven off course by incorrect understanding and wild spectulations; His idenity is obscured by those still in the dark, but the math remains the same!
 
Isn't the concept of the Orthodox God different than the Southern Baptist, the Calvinist, the Fundamentalist? Does that difference make different Gods?

(Goes off to bang head against wall for fear of damaging monitor!)
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« Reply #70 on: February 16, 2012, 10:15:24 PM »

So what you are saying is



Things like the inquisition and crusades don't effectively "change their hearts and minds?" Tongue
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« Reply #71 on: February 16, 2012, 10:19:32 PM »

So what you are saying is



Things like the inquisition and crusades don't effectively "change their hearts and minds?" Tongue

 laugh laugh laugh

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« Reply #72 on: February 16, 2012, 10:30:17 PM »

Uh..I'm not really wanting to start this up again, Riddikulus. I only posted that because it seems like much of the disagreement in this thread comes from different people approaching the question from different perspectives, to the point where it could be argued that we are probably addressing different questions. To me, the existence of other religions and other beliefs about God does not change the fact that there is only one God. If someone said that Barrack Obama is a large Samoan man who sells real estate in Florida, I'd let him keep believing that but it wouldn't change the fact that he's actually the President of the United States. And if that same person adored him, nay, worshiped him for his real estate-selling abilities, I would not recognize that person as worshiping the actual Barrack Obama, because it is clear that the man would be worshiping something of his own making, not the real person.

And, again, the verses in the Bible that warn against worshiping or otherwise serving false gods really make very little sense to me if there are in fact no false gods, because everyone is just grabbing different parts of the same elephant or whatever hippie pseudo-aphorism is out there. So I say that there are false gods, and these include the god of the Muslim, the god of the Hindu, the god of the ____, etc. Truly there is only ONE GOD, but there are as many false gods as there are people to fashion them.

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« Reply #73 on: February 16, 2012, 10:53:19 PM »

We need to be clear on definitions here. Here is how I personally define these terms...

Heterodox: Christians outside the Orthodox Church, still identifying with the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, but with slight errors in theology
Heretic: Christians outside the Orthodox Church, still identifying with the Nicene Creed, but with serious errors in theology (all heretics are heterodox).
Non-Christian: Anyone outside the Orthodox Church who do not identify with the Nicene Creed (all non-Christians are heterodox and heretical).

Non-Christians do not worship the same God as we do. Only those who accept the Nicene Creed worship the same God as us.

There is only one God... But that doesn't mean everyone worships him in different ways, that is blasphemy.
There is no other God but God, our Lord, the Holy Trinity. Yet these other religions worship false gods, gods that do not exist. The Greeks didn't worship God, they worshipped Zeus, Hera, Poseidon and so many other false gods. The Romans didn't worship God, they worshiped Mars, Jupiter, Pluto, Venus and many other false gods. The Canaanites worshiped Baal and Asherah, they didn't worship God. The Jews worship a god they call YHWH, but not God. The Hindus worship many "devas", but not God. The Atheists worship themselves, not God.

The gods these faiths worship are not God, the gods these faiths worship do not exist and never will exist, they are worshiping false gods, false idols.
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« Reply #74 on: February 16, 2012, 10:59:17 PM »

Uh..I'm not really wanting to start this up again, Riddikulus. I only posted that because it seems like much of the disagreement in this thread comes from different people approaching the question from different perspectives, to the point where it could be argued that we are probably addressing different questions. To me, the existence of other religions and other beliefs about God does not change the fact that there is only one God. If someone said that Barrack Obama is a large Samoan man who sells real estate in Florida, I'd let him keep believing that but it wouldn't change the fact that he's actually the President of the United States. And if that same person adored him, nay, worshiped him for his real estate-selling abilities, I would not recognize that person as worshiping the actual Barrack Obama, because it is clear that the man would be worshiping something of his own making, not the real person.

And, again, the verses in the Bible that warn against worshiping or otherwise serving false gods really make very little sense to me if there are in fact no false gods, because everyone is just grabbing different parts of the same elephant or whatever hippie pseudo-aphorism is out there. So I say that there are false gods, and these include the god of the Muslim, the god of the Hindu, the god of the ____, etc. Truly there is only ONE GOD, but there are as many false gods as there are people to fashion them.



dzheremi,

We are really going nowhere, wouldn't you say? Best to agree to disagree and with a handshake go onto something else. Smiley
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« Reply #75 on: February 16, 2012, 11:03:23 PM »

We need to be clear on definitions here. Here is how I personally define these terms...

Heterodox: Christians outside the Orthodox Church, still identifying with the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed, but with slight errors in theology
Heretic: Christians outside the Orthodox Church, still identifying with the Nicene Creed, but with serious errors in theology (all heretics are heterodox).
Non-Christian: Anyone outside the Orthodox Church who do not identify with the Nicene Creed (all non-Christians are heterodox and heretical).

Non-Christians do not worship the same God as we do. Only those who accept the Nicene Creed worship the same God as us.

There is only one God... But that doesn't mean everyone worships him in different ways, that is blasphemy.
There is no other God but God, our Lord, the Holy Trinity. Yet these other religions worship false gods, gods that do not exist. The Greeks didn't worship God, they worshipped Zeus, Hera, Poseidon and so many other false gods. The Romans didn't worship God, they worshiped Mars, Jupiter, Pluto, Venus and many other false gods. The Canaanites worshiped Baal and Asherah, they didn't worship God. The Jews worship a god they call YHWH, but not God. The Hindus worship many "devas", but not God. The Atheists worship themselves, not God.

The gods these faiths worship are not God, the gods these faiths worship do not exist and never will exist, they are worshiping false gods, false idols.

Devin,

You really aren't getting my point and perhaps that's my fault. So let's just agree to disagree.  Cos, I have other stuff to do. Smiley
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« Reply #76 on: February 16, 2012, 11:26:44 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Non-Christians do not worship the same God as we do. Only those who accept the Nicene Creed worship the same God as us.


So Who brought them to conversion if or when they come to the Church?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #77 on: February 16, 2012, 11:34:55 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!



Non-Christians do not worship the same God as we do. Only those who accept the Nicene Creed worship the same God as us.


So Who brought them to conversion if or when they come to the Church?

stay blessed,
habte selassie
and also, which version of the Creed. the one with or without the filioque?
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« Reply #78 on: February 16, 2012, 11:39:26 PM »

In the adult catechism Entering the Orthodox Church, on pgs. 44-45, Metropolitan Hierotheos goes into specifics about how Confucians, Hindus, ancient Greeks and Romans, and of course Jews, awaited a redeemer, some even prophesying a "God-man". It's very interesting, and shows that even with incomplete, incorrect information, people of various faiths still reach out and desire God - the only true God there is.

Quote from: Metropolitan of Nafpaktos Hierotheos
Men always longed for salvation and, for this reason, expected redemption and a savior. They had the memory of a blessed life, while at the same time experiencing the tragedy of life, with death, sicknesses, wars, hatred of other men and so on. This is why they expected a Redeemer. The whole of mankind hoped for a Redeemer God .... So, the God who all human beings expected throughout the ages was Christ.

I don't see how saying everyone worships God in different ways is blasphemy. Everyone worships with the knowledge they have. I don't see anybody saying that because we worship the same God, all faiths will let you come to know Him equally. So let's say I believe President Barrack Obama is actually a large Samoan man who sells real estate in Florida. I run into him at the supermarket and have a nice, long conversation with him. I may be completely wrong about who he is (other than knowing he exists, he's a man, and several other things), I'll probably misinterpret many of the things he says because of my incorrect assumptions, but I'm still talking to Barrack Obama. I'll understand the conversation a lot better once I get my facts straight, but the encounter still occurred.
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« Reply #79 on: February 16, 2012, 11:44:58 PM »

Muslims worship the God of the Jews.

Well, even though they do not know it, Christ is the God of the Jews, of the Muslims, and everyone else.

I believe Muslims do worship God. I believe that most religions do but each has different understanding on who God is. I don't think the Average Joe Muslim who knows nothing of Christianity can be blamed at all for the errors of Muhammad. I think to say that they don't worship God is cruel. There is only one God, and I believe many people sincerely worship Him in the way that they only know.
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« Reply #80 on: February 16, 2012, 11:49:42 PM »

I believe its blasphemous to think that we own God.

By owning, I mean in the sense that many here believe that Christians and probably just the Orthodox are the only ones who God listens to.
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« Reply #81 on: February 16, 2012, 11:52:15 PM »

On a different board that I used to post on, there was a lovely man from Saudi Arabia who strove to live as a Christian while remaining outwardly a Muslim due to his country's laws against conversion that would result in his execution. In fact, he even described himself as "a Christian soul in Muslim flesh" or something similar. And from all I could tell from interactions with him there, both public and private, he was definitely a better Christian than I am.

The fact that he identified as Muslim was, for me, not a problem, as he was effectively living outside of the bounds of Islam in his private worship and devotion to Christ, the Only-Begotten Son of God. So it is with all the false religions of the world: Certainly people strive to worship God in them, but it is only effectively outside of them that they can truly do so. I truly do believe that God does call those trapped in situations like these (in false religions) to worship Him, but again, the key is that within Islamic (or Jewish, or Shinto, or whatever) orthodoxy, they cannot do so. It is not a limitation of God, as though God cannot call all to Him, but it is a limitation of their false religions and the constraints placed on those within them. So there are cases where a(n individual) Muslim or what have you does worship God, but no cases in which a non-Christian may do so within the bounds of their non-Christian religion. These cases do not vindicate non-Christian religions or their conceptions of God so much as prove the power of the Lord to call out and use whomever He sees fit to make worthy (e.g., deceivers like Jacob, reluctant people like Moses, adulterers like David, etc).
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« Reply #82 on: February 17, 2012, 12:00:23 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Nobody here has tried to vindicate other religions, however, many folks, myself included, have expressed the sentiments that it is both incredulous and even pretentious for anyone to assume that any person, group, or faith has power to control or limit the power of the Almighty God.  If God wants to talk to Muslims and atheist alike, are y'all going to stop Him?  
St. John of Damascus says that Islam (the sect of the "Saracens") is a heresy of Christianity.  

Thank you Father, I agree with this, could you perhaps quote or reference this for clarification?  I think if we all begin to think of Islam as a Christian heresy we may be a bit more polite and less demonizing in our discussions, heretics need prayer and love to bring them to God, not fire and brimstone preaching.


Again though, my question has yet to be fully addressed, if only within the Church can folks worship God, how do folks outside the Church ever convert? Who invites them in if not the Holy Spirit, and if the Holy Spirit invites even them that are outside to come in by God's Grace, how can we then say that God only acts inside the Church hence limiting the Almighty God as if we controlled access to Him instead of Him controlling our access.

I think its safer for us simply to promote the Truth of Christianity without having to resort to political style attack ads against folks outside the Church, surely God speaks well enough for Himself, that is, unless folks honestly think He doesn't talk to anyone but themselves Wink

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #83 on: February 17, 2012, 12:01:35 AM »

St. John of Damascus says that Islam (the sect of the "Saracens") is a heresy of Christianity.  They worship the same God but have a wrong view of Him.   That is different than Hindus who have their top 50 list of favorite gods, or atheists of the church of scientism who worship a presumably infinite amount of finite numbers, or self-proclaimed accidental phyletists who worship a finite but sizeable list of past romanian communist leaders.  
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« Reply #84 on: February 17, 2012, 12:14:43 AM »

Nobody here has tried to vindicate other religions

Stating that other religions worship the same God as we do in Christianity in effect vindicates them as other paths to that same God.

Quote
however, many folks, myself included, have expressed the sentiments that it is both incredulous and even pretentious for anyone to assume that any person, group, or faith has power to control or limit the power of the Almighty God.  If God wants to talk to Muslims and atheist alike, are y'all going to stop Him?
 

I think I just said in my previous reply that God calls whom He wills. Again, it is not about limits on God (as there aren't any), but limits that other religions place on their adherents' ability to embrace the true God, e.g., in Islam their god is all powerful BUT does not beget. We know that's nonsense.

Quote
Again though, my question has yet to be addressed, if only within the Church can folks worship God, how do folks outside the Church ever convert? Who invites them in if not the Holy Spirit, and if the Holy Spirit invites even them that are outside to come in by God's Grace, how can we then say that God only acts inside the Church hence limiting the Almighty God as if we controlled access to Him instead of Him controlling our access.

Again, this was actually just addressed in my previous reply. Just because those outside of Christianity don't worship God doesn't mean that God doesn't call them to worship Him. But in Islam they reject Him in favor of their own recension, in Judaism they reject Him and still await their political/military messiah, etc. When they stop rejecting Him (and leave Islam, Judaism, etc. for Christianity), then we can talk about them as worshiping the true God.

Quote
I think its safer for us simply to promote the Truth of Christianity without having to resort to political style attack ads against folks outside the Church, surely God speaks well enough for Himself, that is, unless folks honestly think He doesn't talk to anyone but themselves Wink

"Political-style attack ads"? You are such a ham...
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« Reply #85 on: February 17, 2012, 12:22:49 AM »


Jews say the same thing.


It is not important what the Jews say. The only thing that matters in this debate is whether the Old Testament denies the doctrine of the Triune God. If we read the Tanakh, we see that it does not deny this idea, but supports it implicitly. However, we cannot say the same thing about the Qur'an. It explicitly equates the doctrine of the Triune God with paganism and polytheism.  Roll Eyes

 Not only is this spot on, it bears repeating; Christians worship the Triune God while Muslims call this blasphemy and equate it with polytheism.  Christianity and Islam are not two sides of the same coin; there are vast differences with Whom we worship being the beginning.  I was a practicing Muslim for nearly ten years and not one single Muslim, regardless of their affiliation (Sunni, Shia, Sufi...) would say we worship the same God.  Now there ain't no way we can wave a Theistic wand over each Muslim and know what's in their heart, but based on both of our traditions the answer is a resounding 'NO'- we do not worship the same God.  Yes there are many, many sincere Muslims, but you can be sincere and sincerely wrong.  I've said it a million times and I'll say it again- a good catechism is worth it's weight in gold.  
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« Reply #86 on: February 17, 2012, 12:27:13 AM »

St. John of Damascus says that Islam (the sect of the "Saracens") is a heresy of Christianity.  They worship the same God but have a wrong view of Him.   That is different than Hindus who have their top 50 list of favorite gods, or atheists of the church of scientism who worship a presumably infinite amount of finite numbers, or self-proclaimed accidental phyletists who worship a finite but sizeable list of past romanian communist leaders.   
Father Bless!

But can it be said that heretics worship the same God as the Orthodox? In Step Five of the Ladder, St. John makes reference to the "godless Origen". Does heretical distortion of God render the object of adoration something else entirely?

Of course, I have not looked into this in much detail, so I could very well be mistaken.
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« Reply #87 on: February 17, 2012, 12:51:02 AM »

Just a heresy though? That's really stretching it IMO.
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« Reply #88 on: February 17, 2012, 12:58:00 AM »

Just a heresy though? That's really stretching it IMO.

Well, you could look at Islam as a faith that is Arianism, Nestorianism, Judaism, and Arab folk beliefs all meshed into one.
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« Reply #89 on: February 17, 2012, 01:11:38 AM »

Nobody here has tried to vindicate other religions

Stating that other religions worship the same God as we do in Christianity in effect vindicates them as other paths to that same God.

Quote
however, many folks, myself included, have expressed the sentiments that it is both incredulous and even pretentious for anyone to assume that any person, group, or faith has power to control or limit the power of the Almighty God.  If God wants to talk to Muslims and atheist alike, are y'all going to stop Him?
 

I think I just said in my previous reply that God calls whom He wills. Again, it is not about limits on God (as there aren't any), but limits that other religions place on their adherents' ability to embrace the true God, e.g., in Islam their god is all powerful BUT does not beget. We know that's nonsense.

Quote
Again though, my question has yet to be addressed, if only within the Church can folks worship God, how do folks outside the Church ever convert? Who invites them in if not the Holy Spirit, and if the Holy Spirit invites even them that are outside to come in by God's Grace, how can we then say that God only acts inside the Church hence limiting the Almighty God as if we controlled access to Him instead of Him controlling our access.

Again, this was actually just addressed in my previous reply. Just because those outside of Christianity don't worship God doesn't mean that God doesn't call them to worship Him. But in Islam they reject Him in favor of their own recension, in Judaism they reject Him and still await their political/military messiah, etc. When they stop rejecting Him (and leave Islam, Judaism, etc. for Christianity), then we can talk about them as worshiping the true God.

Quote
I think its safer for us simply to promote the Truth of Christianity without having to resort to political style attack ads against folks outside the Church, surely God speaks well enough for Himself, that is, unless folks honestly think He doesn't talk to anyone but themselves Wink

"Political-style attack ads"? You are such a ham...

You added "as we do in Christianity," no one else said that. 
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« Reply #90 on: February 17, 2012, 01:18:46 AM »

Just a heresy though? That's really stretching it IMO.

Your's is a humble opinion compared to St. John of Damascus.  I am going to go with his opinion as he states in his work On Heresies:   

“There is also the superstition of the Ishmaelites which to this day prevails and keeps people in error, being a forerunner of the Antichrist. They are descended from Ishmael, [who] was born to Abraham of Hagar, and for this reason they are called both Hagarenes and Ishmaelites. They are also called Saracens, which is derived from Sarras kenoi, or destitute of Sara, because of what Hagar said to the angel: ‘Sara hath sent me away destitute.’ These used to be idolaters and worshiped the morning star and Aphrodite, whom in their own language they called Khabár, which means great.    And so down to the time of Heraclius they were very great idolaters. From that time to the present a false prophet named Mohammed has appeared in their midst. This man, after having chanced upon the Old and New Testaments and likewise, it seems, having conversed with an Arian monk,  devised his own heresy. Then, having insinuated himself into the good graces of the people by a show of seeming piety, he gave out that a certain book had been sent down to him from heaven. He had set down some ridiculous compositions in this book of his and he gave it to them as an object of veneration.” 
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« Reply #91 on: February 17, 2012, 01:23:14 AM »

Nobody here has tried to vindicate other religions

Stating that other religions worship the same God as we do in Christianity in effect vindicates them as other paths to that same God.

Quote
however, many folks, myself included, have expressed the sentiments that it is both incredulous and even pretentious for anyone to assume that any person, group, or faith has power to control or limit the power of the Almighty God.  If God wants to talk to Muslims and atheist alike, are y'all going to stop Him?
 

I think I just said in my previous reply that God calls whom He wills. Again, it is not about limits on God (as there aren't any), but limits that other religions place on their adherents' ability to embrace the true God, e.g., in Islam their god is all powerful BUT does not beget. We know that's nonsense.

Quote
Again though, my question has yet to be addressed, if only within the Church can folks worship God, how do folks outside the Church ever convert? Who invites them in if not the Holy Spirit, and if the Holy Spirit invites even them that are outside to come in by God's Grace, how can we then say that God only acts inside the Church hence limiting the Almighty God as if we controlled access to Him instead of Him controlling our access.

Again, this was actually just addressed in my previous reply. Just because those outside of Christianity don't worship God doesn't mean that God doesn't call them to worship Him. But in Islam they reject Him in favor of their own recension, in Judaism they reject Him and still await their political/military messiah, etc. When they stop rejecting Him (and leave Islam, Judaism, etc. for Christianity), then we can talk about them as worshiping the true God.

Quote
I think its safer for us simply to promote the Truth of Christianity without having to resort to political style attack ads against folks outside the Church, surely God speaks well enough for Himself, that is, unless folks honestly think He doesn't talk to anyone but themselves Wink

"Political-style attack ads"? You are such a ham...

You added "as we do in Christianity," no one else said that. 

Please forgive me, Father, I see how that was poorly worded on my part. By "as we do in Christianity" I mean "the same God as we do in Christianity" (which is the topic of this thread), not that they worship in the same manner or to the same degree or what have you. Apologies for any confusion.
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« Reply #92 on: February 25, 2012, 10:42:29 AM »

An illustration:

Let's say a guy named Joe Doaks develops a new monotheistic religion: BOOG - Belief Of One God, which worships a god called BOOGER, and the core beliefs are as follows:

   -  There is only one god and her name is BOOGER

   -  BOOGER is ten feet tall, has horns, a forked tongue, and a tail

   -  BOOGER requires human sacrifices on her alter

   -  Booger's golden rule is: "by any means necessary"


Question:  Do followers of BOOGER worship the same god as Christians just because they profess belief in one god? 

Question:  Are they seeking the same path and ends as Christians?

Question:  Are they just "misinformed"?


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« Reply #93 on: February 28, 2012, 09:39:16 AM »

Just because Islam worships a diety named "God" does not mean it is God. The attributes of God in the koran are radically different than that of the Bible.

PP
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« Reply #94 on: February 28, 2012, 04:26:28 PM »

Aslan is not Tash.
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« Reply #95 on: February 28, 2012, 05:06:25 PM »

I honestly think they do worship the same God, but this is a topic I'm very interested in and have yet to research.
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« Reply #96 on: February 28, 2012, 07:16:38 PM »


Doesn't Saint John of Damascus say that Christians  and Muslims worship the same God?   Of course, I stand to be corrected. Ialmisry could tell us about that.
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« Reply #97 on: February 29, 2012, 01:31:00 PM »

I am curious. There has been much "dialog" between Christians and Moslems, but where is the coomon Ground. God is revealed to us through scripture andTradition. God is revealed to Islam through the Koran, two vastly different revelations. Yes I know, Ghandi, that violence on both sides has been done in the name of religion, but nowhere in our New Testament is anything but kindness toward enemies is condoned. All monotheists don't necessarily worship the same God.

I think there are two Gods. One created and one uncreated. The uncreated God is Single (just like your Eye should be Single). He is ever forgiving and merciful and does not pay evil for evil. His Character says, Forgive, Do not Condemn, and Give.

The other God says Eye for an Eye. Never forget and never forgive. Love your neighbour and hate your enemy. Gotta balance things.

So you tell me what God Muslims worship, and sometimes Christians.
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