Author Topic: How many of the original holy sees remain  (Read 26643 times)

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Offline romanbyzantium

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #135 on: May 09, 2004, 05:16:10 PM »
and btw, when are going to answer the many points brought up in this thread?

Joe Zollars

Joe,

If you missed them.... I have responded to every single post directed at me. It might not be the answer that you want to here but, it is my answer.

Offline JoeZollars

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #136 on: May 09, 2004, 05:22:53 PM »
must we resort to childish name calling, Joe?

hey... If you are ashamed that is your business but your silence is very telling.

Yours truly,

The little euro troll.

it is not name-calling but a logical deducement from your actions since joining here.  

I am not ashamed, but would just rather keep my personal information to myself.  These days you never know who reads/maliceously uses information posted on the net.  

Joe Zollars
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Offline JoeZollars

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #137 on: May 09, 2004, 05:25:34 PM »
Joe,

If you missed them.... I have responded to every single post directed at me. It might not be the answer that you want to here but, it is my answer.

How about my post quoting you as saying that Antioch should changes its name since it was no longer in residence at Antioch, but later your saying that Rome should not have changed its name to Avingnon?

How about my listing countries that are and always have been predominantly Orthodox contrary to your statement that they were once Catholic?

It seems that any time someone prooves you wrong, you simply ignore the post and go on posting your diatribe.  Everyone here has been proven wrong on something at somepoint, but at least we are adult enough to admit it.

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Offline Father Peter

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #138 on: May 09, 2004, 05:29:51 PM »
Everyone here has been proven wrong on something at somepoint

Hey! I dispute that!!!!!! :-)

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Offline theodore

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #139 on: May 09, 2004, 05:30:25 PM »
Joe,

So...have you always been orthodox?
RB,

So...have you always been so quarrelsome?

Your question to Joe is irrelevant to the topic at hand.  I'll answer for Joe: No.   Nobody has ALWAYS been Orthodox.  Even a baby born to Orthodox parents isn't Orthodox until he or she is Baptised/Chrismated.

Offline romanbyzantium

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #140 on: May 09, 2004, 05:31:46 PM »
it is not name-calling but a logical deducement from your actions since joining here.  

I am not ashamed, but would just rather keep my personal information to myself.  These days you never know who reads/maliceously uses information posted on the net.  

Joe Zollars

No.. it is about not liking the questions that I have asked sincerely. People here have acted like I have committed the greatest sin on earth and have resorted to name calling to vilified me as someone that is agenda driven and has it against the orthodox church. Why?

I have been called papist, romanist, troll (my favorite), godless, apostate, heretic, etc..

Have I subjected any orthodox to derogatory names? No, I have not. I have no need for it. My concience won't allow me.

I don't get offended or get bent out shape because of questions that are asked about catholicism. I asnwer them to the best of my abilities and hope that somekind of seed gets planted and perhaps their attitude would change. who knws, God works in mysterious ways.

We know how is it like to get lots of questions... we get them all the time from protestants but I have never resorted to name calling and you know how they love to call us ( yes, the orthodox too) names.

Offline JoeZollars

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #141 on: May 09, 2004, 05:36:58 PM »
Subdeacon Peter:  LOL!!!!  

Theodore:  thank you

RB:  YOu have done nothing to disprove those labels.  In factyou have continuously prooved them to be true.

No RB, you have not labeled people here.  Oh wait except for Ben who you called a no-nothing traditionalist.  Oh and let us not forget the very lenghty thread all about your bragging about recieving from an Orthodox Chalice under false pretenses.

Joe Zollars
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Offline romanbyzantium

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #142 on: May 09, 2004, 05:39:05 PM »
Subdeacon Peter:  LOL!!!!  

Theodore:  thank you

RB:  YOu have done nothing to disprove those labels.  In factyou have continuously prooved them to be true.

No RB, you have not labeled people here.  Oh wait except for Ben who you called a no-nothing traditionalist.  Oh and let us not forget the very lenghty thread all about your bragging about recieving from an Orthodox Chalice under false pretenses.

Joe Zollars


where have I called Ben a no-nothing traditionalist?
« Last Edit: May 09, 2004, 05:39:25 PM by romanbyzantium »

Offline JoeZollars

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #143 on: May 09, 2004, 05:43:55 PM »
in one of the threads in the Orthodox-Catholic discussion if memory serves me correctly.

Joe Zollars
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Offline romanbyzantium

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #144 on: May 09, 2004, 05:47:35 PM »
How about my post quoting you as saying that Antioch should changes its name since it was no longer in residence at Antioch, but later your saying that Rome should not have changed its name to Avingnon?

How about my listing countries that are and always have been predominantly Orthodox contrary to your statement that they were once Catholic?

It seems that any time someone prooves you wrong, you simply ignore the post and go on posting your diatribe.  Everyone here has been proven wrong on something at somepoint, but at least we are adult enough to admit it.

Joe Zollars

1. there is a difference between moving willingly and being exiled.
2. the papacy was called the avignone papacy even though he was exiled. then he return to rome. his proper place.
3. I never said that those countries were always catholic. I said that most countries in eastern europe are catholic. check the post
4. you were the one that said that those eastern catholic countries where once predominately orthodox.
5. then you said that it was the jesuit that converted them at gun point.


If you would like to produce a list of all eastern europe countries for me...lest see which are catholic ans which ones are orthodox.


Offline romanbyzantium

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #145 on: May 09, 2004, 05:48:16 PM »
in one of the threads in the Orthodox-Catholic discussion if memory serves me correctly.

Joe Zollars

show it to me then.

Offline JoeZollars

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #146 on: May 09, 2004, 05:54:38 PM »
1.  Who said Antioch has been entirely willinglymoved.  Remember Turkey is not exactly friendly to ORthdoxy.  In fact according to the AP itself, they are in Damascas in Exile.

2.  Most countries are not Catholic. They are either thouroughly secular, Mohamadean or Orthodox.   Can you name as many Catholic Countries in EE as the ORthodox ones I named (keep in my mind my list is by no means exaustive).

3.  Read your posts again.  I have no desire to see such tripe for myself.

Joe Zollars
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Offline Mor Ephrem

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #147 on: May 09, 2004, 06:07:50 PM »
I have been called papist, romanist, troll (my favorite), godless, apostate, heretic, etc..

Dear RB,

I make a point of reading every post that gets posted on this website, and I don't recall you being called anything other than a troll and possibly a papist.  I would appreciate it if you would post at least one example of anyone addressing each of those words toward you (except troll, I've seen that enough).  I would like to see five examples, with links to the threads/posts in question--one each for papist, romanist, godless, apostate, and heretic.  

Thanks!
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Offline Ben

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #148 on: May 09, 2004, 06:09:39 PM »


2.  Most countries are not Catholic. They are either thouroughly secular, Mohamadean or Orthodox.   Can you name as many Catholic Countries in EE as the ORthodox ones I named (keep in my mind my list is by no means exaustive).


I am really wondering if we can really say there is such a thing as a Catholic or Orthodox country. The vast majority of nations that were once Catholic and Orthodox, are now very much secular nations. For example Spain, which was once a very Catholic country in every way, is just as secular as the USA. Or for example Russia, once a very Orthodox country, but look at Russia now, it is no less secular than the USA or the UK. I think the only religion that can actually claim entire countries, is Islam. There are indeed many Muslim nations, that are entirely Muslim in almost every way. However besides Islamic countries, I really do wonder if there is such a thing as an Orthodox or a Catholic country. Or even a protestant country. It seems that all of the once Christian nations are all now very much secular due to revolutions, democracy, and capitalism and/or communism.
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Offline Ben

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #149 on: May 09, 2004, 06:17:24 PM »
Dear RB,

I make a point of reading every post that gets posted on this website, and I don't recall you being called anything other than a troll and possibly a papist.  I would appreciate it if you would post at least one example of anyone addressing each of those words toward you (except troll, I've seen that enough).  I would like to see five examples, with links to the threads/posts in question--one each for papist, romanist, godless, apostate, and heretic.  

Thanks!

I know Joe has called him, and all Catholics in general, Papists and Romanists, Joe never refers to Catholics as Catholics, because he believes the Orthodox Church to be the true Catholic Church. But other than troll, Papist, and Romanist, I haven't seen RB called anything else.
"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint

Offline romanbyzantium

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #150 on: May 09, 2004, 06:32:04 PM »
Dear RB,

I make a point of reading every post that gets posted on this website, and I don't recall you being called anything other than a troll and possibly a papist.  I would appreciate it if you would post at least one example of anyone addressing each of those words toward you (except troll, I've seen that enough).  I would like to see five examples, with links to the threads/posts in question--one each for papist, romanist, godless, apostate, and heretic.  

Thanks!

Sure.. the papist romanist was in another thread.

Notice here : uh-huh.  Well you know your right.  What was serbia thinking fighting against an invading force and all?! tsk tsk.  BTW, no-one here aproves of Slobodon Malosovich, but there is a wrong way and a right way to take him out.  Guess which one the godless western christian apostates chose?

and here

Let's not forget the paying prostitutes to dance on the Altar of hte Hagia Sophia, the raping of the women, the torture and murder of Orthodox  Priests and/or their forced conversion to Romanism.  Little wonder what happened.



« Last Edit: May 09, 2004, 06:48:58 PM by romanbyzantium »

Offline theodore

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #151 on: May 09, 2004, 07:04:07 PM »
1. there is a difference between moving willingly and being exiled.

And what would that difference be?  And which See moved willingly and which was exiled?   One could make a case that at least some of the Avignon Popes preferred to be in Avignon to Rome and didn't consider themselves to be in exile.  One could also make a case that the Syrian Church was exiled from it's former capital city to their new one due to political and seismological conditions.  But the point remains, the Apostolic succession is tied to the See, which does not HAVE to be located in it's original city, or original building, etc...  Whether the See moved willingly or not is irrelevant.

2. the papacy was called the avignone papacy even though he was exiled. then he return to rome. his proper place.

One of the Popes, Clement VI actually refused a solemn invitation to return to Rome, as he was devoted to France.  So to say that the Popes in Avignon felt exiled is just not true.


Offline romanbyzantium

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #152 on: May 09, 2004, 07:37:00 PM »


Read about the babylonian captivity and how the powerful French King  Phillip  the 4th forced the pope to Avignon.

If I remember correctly, Clement VI was extremely partial to the french which angered the italians. They saw clement and the avignon popes as puppets of the French king. I believe that Clement VI was the worst of them all, a true puppet.... well as described by the italians.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2004, 08:00:28 PM by romanbyzantium »

Offline theodore

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #153 on: May 09, 2004, 08:04:15 PM »
Read about the babylonian captivity and how the powerful French King  Phillip  the 4th forced the pope to Avignon.

If I remember correctly, Clement VI was extremely partial to the french which angered the italians. They saw clement and the avignon popes as puppets of the French king. I believe that Clement VI was the worst of them all, a true puppet.... well as described by the italians.
And thus, not in exile, but where he preferred to be.

Offline romanbyzantium

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #154 on: May 09, 2004, 08:09:31 PM »
And thus, not in exile, but where he preferred to be.

No!!!

even if he didn't want to return.. would you to a hostile place. The papacy( the office) was in exiled. until it returned later. perhaps you passed over the part about the powerful french kings that forced them to stay.

Offline prodromos

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #155 on: May 10, 2004, 07:12:35 AM »
I wonder if anyone has noted the significance of the Constantinople Patriarchate's contact address.

Rum Patrikhanesi
34220 Fener - Hali+º
Istanbul, Turkey

John

Offline theodore

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #156 on: May 10, 2004, 10:10:26 AM »
No!!!

even if he didn't want to return.. would you to a hostile place. The papacy( the office) was in exiled. until it returned later. perhaps you passed over the part about the powerful french kings that forced them to stay.
Looks like Clement VI didn't need any force.  Your English is not clear.  Are you insinuating that if Clement VI had gone to Rome that it would have been a hostile place for him?  If so, then why was he invited?

Offline romanbyzantium

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #157 on: May 10, 2004, 12:40:07 PM »
I wonder if anyone has noted the significance of the Constantinople Patriarchate's contact address.

Rum Patrikhanesi
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John

what is the significance that you see?

Offline Brendan03

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #158 on: May 10, 2004, 01:10:42 PM »
"Rum"  = "Roman"
B

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #159 on: May 10, 2004, 01:16:30 PM »
Troll bait. Come on, guys. Give RB a break. He'll need a new keyboard before long.
You know, his original question was assumed to be how many of the original 'pentarchy' are left. But there were a lot more 'holy sees' than these by the time the idea of the pentarchy was developed. I do wonder now: How many ARE left? How do you define "original"?

Demetri
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Offline romanbyzantium

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #160 on: May 10, 2004, 08:47:47 PM »
Troll bait. Come on, guys. Give RB a break. He'll need a new keyboard before long.
You know, his original question was assumed to be how many of the original 'pentarchy' are left. But there were a lot more 'holy sees' than these by the time the idea of the pentarchy was developed. I do wonder now: How many ARE left? How do you define "original"?

Demetri

The little euro troll got himself a new keyboard. I am ready to break it in. :)

So Demetri...........what do you think of the Greek Orthodox church of America NYC?

Offline Ben

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #161 on: May 10, 2004, 10:59:06 PM »

Oh wait except for Ben who you called a no-nothing traditionalist.

In defense of RB, he never once called me a "no-nothing traditionalist". If I remember correctly in another thread he said "ah, so you are a traditonalist!", and many thought RB meant that in a negative way, but I don't think he did, after speaking with him over private message.

I am sure Joe meant well, but I just want to make sure the truth gets out.

Anywho...just wanted to clear that up  :)
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Offline JoeZollars

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #162 on: May 11, 2004, 12:37:52 AM »
hmm must have been my memory fogging up a bit.  Looking back you are right.  It seemed apparent from the context that he meant it in a derogatory manner.

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Offline Brigid of Kildare

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #163 on: May 11, 2004, 05:34:10 AM »
I wonder if anyone has noted the significance of the Constantinople Patriarchate's contact address.

Rum Patrikhanesi
34220 Fener - Hali+º
Istanbul, Turkey

John

Sounds a bit rum to me all right, John. What would happen it you addressed a communication to Rum Patrikhanesi, 34220 Fener-Halic, Constantinople? Would it get there :P
Bríd Naomhtha, Mhuire na nGaeil, Guí Orainn

Offline Brendan03

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #164 on: May 11, 2004, 07:48:22 AM »
The significance is that "Rum" = "Roman" in Turkish.  The Turks refer to it, as they always have, as the "Roman Patriarchate", because when they conquered Constantinople, they considered that they had conquered the Romans, it being the capital at that time of the Roman Empire.

Brendan
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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #165 on: May 11, 2004, 09:38:01 AM »

So Demetri...........what do you think of the Greek Orthodox church of America NYC?

Well, little troll, that's none of your business.

Demetri
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Offline Seraphim Reeves

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #166 on: May 11, 2004, 12:09:43 PM »
RomanByzantium,

Quote
That is right seraphin.... ROME was pagan and turned christian and it still remains. I wish that I could say the same for constantinople. If you wish to reminisce about constantinople.... who am I to argue.

Yes, nominally Rome is "Christian" - though it's odd that a city with so many churches can only keep them reasonably full because of tourists/pilgrims.

"Who are you to argue"... ha. :)

The point stands - neither Rome, nor Constantinople are the same cities they once were.  Indeed, strictly speaking, the Pope no longer resides in Rome at all, but in a sovereign state (Vatican City).

When it suits you, you harp about names; other times, you'll attempt to argue a little more intelligently and deal with substance.   I really don't know what you're doing here - it seems the only point of your participation is to annoy people.  And no, you're not "confounding the heretics" - you're simply a pest.

Seraphim

Offline romanbyzantium

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Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #168 on: May 11, 2004, 04:24:35 PM »
How many converts do you win with that attitude?

You want personal info? PM me.
And you, my little troll, are not interested in Orthodoxy despite your so stating that you are.
{Oops, here I am violating my own "Don't Feed the Troll" rules :o }
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Offline romanbyzantium

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #169 on: May 11, 2004, 04:29:25 PM »
RomanByzantium,Yes, nominally Rome is "Christian" - though it's odd that a city with so many churches can only keep them reasonably full because of tourists/pilgrims.

"Who are you to argue"... ha. :)

The point stands - neither Rome, nor Constantinople are the same cities they once were.  Indeed, strictly speaking, the Pope no longer resides in Rome at all, but in a sovereign state (Vatican City).

When it suits you, you harp about names; other times, you'll attempt to argue a little more intelligently and deal with substance.   I really don't know what you're doing here - it seems the only point of your participation is to annoy people.  And no, you're not "confounding the heretics" - you're simply a pest.

Seraphim


How in the world do you get at nominally christian?

Did you know that the popes church is not Saint Peter's? The pope basilica is in Rome.

St. John Lateran is the cathedral of the pope, the Patriarch of the West. St. Peter's is assigned to the Patriarch of Constantinople, St. Paul's to the Patriarch of Alexandria, St. Mary Major to the Patriarch of Antioch. St. Lawrence-outside-the-Walls is also reckoned as a greater basilica because it is specially attributed to the Patriarch of Jerusalem.

To answer your second questions... I am not a pest but trying to engage in intelligent conversation but there are people here that do not want the boat to be rocked at all.

Offline romanbyzantium

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #170 on: May 11, 2004, 04:32:08 PM »
You want personal info? PM me.
And you, my little troll, are not interested in Orthodoxy despite your so stating that you are.
{Oops, here I am violating my own "Don't Feed the Troll" rules :o }

Correct me if I am wrong. But is this not an orthodox board?

I have asked you a question on Greek orthodox church in america and you dismiss it as personal information.

Demetri grow up ok. You just don't like it that I have tough questions. just say so.

Offline Αριστοκλής

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #171 on: May 11, 2004, 04:40:20 PM »
It is really hard not to insult you, TROLL. Maybe the admins like you here, but I don't see you making any contribution -just digital pollution. It's still a personal question, not a hard one. And it is certainly not worthy of answering.
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Offline sdcheung

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #172 on: May 11, 2004, 05:13:10 PM »
Ela Demetri..
His posts sound very Juvenile doesn't it? ;)

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No profanities in your sig line if you're going to post in the public forum.

Offline romanbyzantium

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #173 on: May 11, 2004, 11:10:11 PM »
Ela Demetri..
His posts sound very Juvenile doesn't it? ;)

You mean like your name calling? what more juvenile than acting like middle school graders and all the nasty names.


Offline romanbyzantium

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Re:How many of the original holy sees remain
« Reply #174 on: May 11, 2004, 11:14:19 PM »
It is really hard not to insult you, TROLL. Maybe the admins like you here, but I don't see you making any contribution -just digital pollution. It's still a personal question, not a hard one. And it is certainly not worthy of answering.

But that is the point..............you are not insulting me. why in the world would I give you that power.

Name calling  directed at me just rolls of my back. perhaps it is because euorpeans are just arrogant and culturally superior.  :-*

I am only kidding. ;)       Don't want anyone having a cow. ;D