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Author Topic: How many of the original holy sees remain  (Read 23266 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #90 on: May 07, 2004, 09:20:23 PM »

Personally, I think you guys are taking this a little far, but I'm very willing to be corrected as I'm no scholar.

New Amsterdam, as far as I know, was not a major place of authority and reverence to the Church. Hence, its name change can be tolerated and accepted.  But when something happens to a centrally Orthodox city like Constantinople, it would make sense that the people would try their hardest to maintain its originality, even if it has changed.  The least they can do is call it by its original proper name, a name dear to them, instead of a somewhat "desacrated" name. (I'm bad at history, so I don't know precisely what happened, I'm just assuming its something bad that lead to Constantinople becoming Istanbul.)

But of course, this is just what I can reason out.

Kim

yes it was something bad.  It started with the RC's who overran the Phanar in the fourth crusade and ransacked the treasures of the city.  To study Bzantine Art etc. one goes to the treasury in Venice not anyplace in Constantinople.  Of course we could get into how the RomanCAtholic crusaders and their attendant clergy paid prostitutes to dance upon the Orthodox Altars, but that is beside the point.  

Basically such desecration continued under the Turkish rule as well--and to a much greater degree to an extent.

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« Reply #91 on: May 07, 2004, 09:22:14 PM »

Yeah... the Muslim conquerors did what all conquerors do. They destroy, rename, introduce their religion and culture until very little of the old remains.  This is how constantinople became Instabul.

All the great empires( spanish, english, romans, etc)  have done it. The Romans did it to all the people that they conquered.

Yes this is true, but what we are saying is that we do not have to recognize the legitimacy of it.  In Orthodoxy, such could only be done under a God-Given Authority.  

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« Reply #92 on: May 07, 2004, 09:24:48 PM »

because you are insulting us and our homeland.

Joe Zollars

BTW, get a clue.  Istanbul is Constantinople as pronounced by Arabs.

I am not insulting anyone. where have I insulted anyone?

that is not your homeland. Unless you are converting to the muslim religion and turkish?

I though you were american?  Is not america your homeland?

who says that istanbul  is constantinople pronounced by the arabs?
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« Reply #93 on: May 07, 2004, 09:32:48 PM »

Yes this is true, but what we are saying is that we do not have to recognize the legitimacy of it.  In Orthodoxy, such could only be done under a God-Given Authority.  

JOe Zollars

Joe... God ordains everything.  not one leaf falls from a tree without his permission. What happened to constantinople was ordained by God. I believe God ordains everything!!!!!!!!!!

Do you really think that people( turkish) care if you (orthodoxs) accept the legitimacy or not? They won. Turkey is a sovereign muslim nation recognized by all countries.  Just like the pope lost the papal states.


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« Reply #94 on: May 07, 2004, 09:32:53 PM »

I am not insulting anyone. where have I insulted anyone?

that is not your homeland. Unless you are converting to the muslim religion and turkish?

I though you were american?  Is not america your homeland?

who says that istanbul  is constantinople pronounced by the arabs?

In just about all of your 281 posts.  Thus leading dozens of us to believe you are indeed a troll.

No, and Constantinople is not a Turkish or Mohamadean city.  It is an Orthodox City that is currently enslaved by godless forces (just like it was during the fourth crusade).  I was speaking in a spiritual sense as that area of the world is the spiritual homeland of Orthodoxy, nto a physical one.

Actually Arkansas is my physical homeland.  See my explanation above.

In regards to your last point, it has been brought up numerous times in this thread and you have systematically ignored it each time.  The argument for you being either a troll or just plain wanting to stir up trouble dost continue.

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« Reply #95 on: May 07, 2004, 09:38:44 PM »

Joe... God ordains everything.  not one leaf falls from a tree without his permission. What happened to constantinople was ordained by God. I believe God ordains everything!!!!!!!!!!

Do you really think that people( turkish) care if you (orthodoxs) accept the legitimacy or not? They won. Turkey is a sovereign muslim nation recognized by all countries.  Just like the pope lost the papal states.

By referring to it by its' conquered name, we recognize its legitimacy and right to exist.  Just like if you call Jerusalem the capital of Isreal, you recognize that it is an exclusivly jewish city, and the Palestinians and Christians have no rights to it.  

God permits everything, but he does not ordain everything.  This is a very important semantic difference.  God has allowed Constantinople to be conquered, not least of all because of the Apostasy of many of the greek aristocracy at the time from the ORthodox Faith .  The same happened in 1917 in Moscow.  

God would not wish godless and satanic forces to rule the world, but just like in the book of judges, He allows it until we repent.  

If we were to call it Istanbul, we would be saying that the government of Suleimon the Magnificent or that of the modern turkish state is just as legitimate as that of St. Constantine.  Just tell that to the millions of Armenians martyred by Turkey as Roman Catholic and protestant nations looked on and did nothing.  

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« Reply #96 on: May 07, 2004, 09:42:56 PM »

In just about all of your 281 posts.  Thus leading dozens of us to believe you are indeed a troll.

No, and Constantinople is not a Turkish or Mohamadean city.  It is an Orthodox City that is currently enslaved by godless forces (just like it was during the fourth crusade).  I was speaking in a spiritual sense as that area of the world is the spiritual homeland of Orthodoxy, nto a physical one.

Actually Arkansas is my physical homeland.  See my explanation above.

In regards to your last point, it has been brought up numerous times in this thread and you have systematically ignored it each time.  The argument for you being either a troll or just plain wanting to stir up trouble dost continue.

Joe Zollars

You could have fooled me that istanbul is not a muslim city. Istanbul is no more orthodox than mecca is catholic. was the godless comment in refernce to catholicism? It doesn't bother me Joe. I know where I stand. btw, do you remember that bit of history when the orthodox made an alliance with the muslim to attack the western christians soldiers ( crusaders) that where on their way to free jerusalem from the muslim. You know those same people that orthodox made an alliance with. chew on that for a moment and then revisit your comment.

I have answered every single post address to me. Calling your attention to an issue and asking questions is not being a troll.
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« Reply #97 on: May 07, 2004, 09:51:00 PM »

By referring to it by its' conquered name, we recognize its legitimacy and right to exist.  Just like if you call Jerusalem the capital of Isreal, you recognize that it is an exclusivly jewish city, and the Palestinians and Christians have no rights to it.  

God permits everything, but he does not ordain everything.  This is a very important semantic difference.  God has allowed Constantinople to be conquered, not least of all because of the Apostasy of many of the greek aristocracy at the time from the ORthodox Faith .  The same happened in 1917 in Moscow.  

God would not wish godless and satanic forces to rule the world, but just like in the book of judges, He allows it until we repent.  

If we were to call it Istanbul, we would be saying that the government of Suleimon the Magnificent or that of the modern turkish state is just as legitimate as that of St. Constantine.  Just tell that to the millions of Armenians martyred by Turkey as Roman Catholic and protestant nations looked on and did nothing.  

Joe Zollars

No matter what Israel does to the christians and the palestinians... jerusalem is the capital of israel like God ordained, even with her great sins on her. Remember we are the branch that was grafted in to israel. and god gave the land to Israel.

This still doesn't stop me from criticizing her. because I believe that she will one day will repent or her crimes againt christians.

How do you know that the catholics/protestants didn't do anything? what did the orthodox do?
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« Reply #98 on: May 07, 2004, 09:54:38 PM »

yes, and can you blame them?  They douptless thought that the crusaders were comign to finish Constantinople off.  OH and BTW, the Mohamadeans treated  adn have treated Orthodox Christians better than the RC's did when they were in control of Constantinople.  Let's not forget the paying prostitutes to dance on the Altar of hte Hagia Sophia, the raping of the women, the torture and murder of Orthodox  Priests and/or their forced conversion to Romanism.  Little wonder what happened.

Not that I am defending such an action.  I am simply saying that it is understandable given the historical circumstances.

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« Reply #99 on: May 07, 2004, 10:01:42 PM »

yes, and can you blame them?  They douptless thought that the crusaders were comign to finish Constantinople off.  OH and BTW, the Mohamadeans treated  adn have treated Orthodox Christians better than the RC's did when they were in control of Constantinople.  Let's not forget the paying prostitutes to dance on the Altar of hte Hagia Sophia, the raping of the women, the torture and murder of Orthodox  Priests and/or their forced conversion to Romanism.  Little wonder what happened.

Not that I am defending such an action.  I am simply saying that it is understandable given the historical circumstances.

Joe Zollars

Are we forgetting the massacre of the latins by the orthodox years before the sack of constantinople occured. and that alliance that you had with the muslim was years before the sack of constantinople. explain that? explain and alliance with muslim infidels to me. the same people that sacked and conquered constantinople.

Joe do you really believe that I don't know your history. I choose not to live in the past.
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« Reply #100 on: May 07, 2004, 10:17:59 PM »

Quote
well, lets look at some demographics.  To maintain a steady population, you need a birthrate of 2.1 children per family.  Italian families average 1.2 with less than one per family in Rome and the other large cities.  Therefore within 50 years Italy will have on average 3 times as many Retirees as workers.  They will need to import from somewhere.  Other European countries are facing similar problems.  Their solution has been to invite millions of Muslims into Europe who reproduce at a rate of about 6-7 children per family.  Sad to say, withiin 100 years you will not be able to tell the difference between the cultures of italy, spain and france on one hand and Syria, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia on the other.  Numbers don't lie man.

Joe Zollars

Joe, you make an excellent point and I completely agree with your theory.


I was wondering if any of you have read the article in the latest edition of "Again" magazine on the sack of constantinople? It is awful what the west had done.

If the pope was truly sorry about this past atrocities, then why doesn't he give back some of the relics that had been siezed from the Orthodox???  

Just some food for thought
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« Reply #101 on: May 07, 2004, 10:18:03 PM »

Orthodoc,

you are so resentful of Rome.

Well, I can see where that went entirely over your head!

Orthodoc
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« Reply #102 on: May 07, 2004, 10:22:01 PM »

Joe, you make an excellent point and I completely agree with your theory.


I was wondering if any of you have read the article in the latest edition of "Again" magazine on the sack of constantinople? It is awful what the west had done.

If the pope was truly sorry about this past atrocities, then why doesn't he give back some of the relics that had been siezed from the Orthodox???  

Just some food for thought

How we forget the orthodox atrocities against the western christians years before the sacking by the crusaders.
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« Reply #103 on: May 07, 2004, 10:23:16 PM »

Well, I can see where that went entirely over your head!

Orthodoc

It is called reading between the line. you resent the roman church and that is fine believe me. I don't have any ill-feelings towards orthodox at all.
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« Reply #104 on: May 07, 2004, 11:09:40 PM »

I have read many hundreds of Orthodoc's posts both her, and elsewhere.  Never did I get the feeling that he resents Rome.  Don't read your ideas into his statements.

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« Reply #105 on: May 07, 2004, 11:11:08 PM »

Quote
How we forget the orthodox atrocities against the western christians years before the sacking by the crusaders.

Nice way to avoid the question. Actions speak louder than words and if the pope is truly sorry, he should give back our relics!! Do you disagree, or do you support rome keeping stolen propery??
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« Reply #106 on: May 07, 2004, 11:12:50 PM »

How we forget the orthodox atrocities against the western christians years before the sacking by the crusaders.

Well, shall we begin listing the atrocities commited by Catholcis and other western christians against ORthodox Christians?  Let us not forget that even in our own century, Austria, a Catholic nation, has oppressed and seeked to destroy the right-confessing people of Serbia.  How about Nato and Clinton bombing Orthodox Churches on Pascha? etc etc etc
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« Reply #107 on: May 07, 2004, 11:13:35 PM »

Nice way to avoid the question. Actions speak louder than words and if the pope is truly sorry, he should give back our relics!! Do you disagree, or do you support rome keeping stolen propery??

very, very very good point OB!

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« Reply #108 on: May 07, 2004, 11:15:01 PM »

Nice way to avoid the question. Actions speak louder than words and if the pope is truly sorry, he should give back our relics!! Do you disagree, or do you support rome keeping stolen propery??

What do you call the apology that he made? where is the orthodox apology.

stolen property, hardly.  when will orthodox return the churches that it stole from the eastern catholics?
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« Reply #109 on: May 07, 2004, 11:15:50 PM »

very, very very good point OB!

Joe Zollars

what a surprised joe?

when will orthodox return the stolen property to the eastern catholics?
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« Reply #110 on: May 07, 2004, 11:19:21 PM »

Well, shall we begin listing the atrocities commited by Catholcis and other western christians against ORthodox Christians?  Let us not forget that even in our own century, Austria, a Catholic nation, has oppressed and seeked to destroy the right-confessing people of Serbia.  How about Nato and Clinton bombing Orthodox Churches on Pascha? etc etc etc

Nice way of avoiding to answer the question asked. please explain to us the massacres and atrocities and treachery of the orthodox on the western christians years before the sacking of constantinopole?

you mean nato the same organization that greece is a part of with a couple of other orthodox countries?
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« Reply #111 on: May 07, 2004, 11:19:47 PM »

the very churches those people worship in were originally stolen ORthodox properties.

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« Reply #112 on: May 07, 2004, 11:29:24 PM »

the very churches those people worship in were originally stolen ORthodox properties.

Joe Zollars

you keep believing that Joe. awe are talking about the churches that the orthodox church got the russian government to confiscate from the eatsern catholics and gave it to the orthodox. these are the stolen churches that need to be return to the eastern catholics.
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« Reply #113 on: May 07, 2004, 11:31:54 PM »

of course I will.  It is fact.  many of those churches are well over 500 years old and therefore--ORTHODOX!!!!

Anyways, I notice you have a habit of ending many discussions in such a manner as that last post.  The evidence of your trolldom continues to mount.

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« Reply #114 on: May 07, 2004, 11:34:16 PM »

Well, shall we begin listing the atrocities commited by Catholcis and other western christians against ORthodox Christians?  Let us not forget that even in our own century, Austria, a Catholic nation, has oppressed and seeked to destroy the right-confessing people of Serbia.  How about Nato and Clinton bombing Orthodox Churches on Pascha? etc etc etc

oh yeah and the wonderful war that the serbians started which killed how many millions?HuhHuh??

I know that you will say that they didn't started it but everyone involve know better.
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« Reply #115 on: May 07, 2004, 11:37:39 PM »

of course I will.  It is fact.  many of those churches are well over 500 years old and therefore--ORTHODOX!!!!

Anyways, I notice you have a habit of ending many discussions in such a manner as that last post.  The evidence of your trolldom continues to mount.

Joe Zollars

which post is that, joe?  There are so many.

I response to every post addressed to me, JOE.

sure Joe.. just showing your hypocrisy but if that amounts to trolling then what can I say?

Is that the cover story now about those stolen church properties?

look here joe

http://www.seattlecatholic.com/article_20020215_The_Romanian_Catholic_Fight_to_Reclaim_Stolen_Property.html

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« Reply #116 on: May 07, 2004, 11:41:36 PM »

its not teh cover story--its historical fact.  ERcatholics under rome did not exist until about 500 years ago (at least not in Slavic countries) and therefore churches older than that were originally Orthodox.  I know this may be difficult for you to understand, being based on logic unlike your argument which started this thread.

There is no hypocrsy in my posts, but since you bring it up, you mentioned in one of your posts on the first page of this thread that the Patriarchs of Antioch should change their title to Patriarch of Damascus since they reside there *in exile* from their normal see.  Then when someone pointed out that this too should apply to the pope of rome, you changed your story.  I smell a dead fish.

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« Reply #117 on: May 07, 2004, 11:44:19 PM »

oh yeah and the wonderful war that the serbians started which killed how many millions?HuhHuh??

I know that you will say that they didn't started it but everyone involve know better.

uh-huh.  Well you know your right.  What was serbia thinking fighting against an invading force and all?! tsk tsk.  BTW, no-one here aproves of Slobodon Malosovich, but there is a wrong way and a right way to take him out.  Guess which one the godless western christian apostates chose?

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« Reply #118 on: May 07, 2004, 11:46:21 PM »

btw, here is a relevant Link:  Serbian Orthodox Bishop Shocked and Dissapointed

Note to admins/mods:  I do not mean this as forum pluggin as I no longer participate in that forum.  I was given the link by a friend in the course of our discussing this issue.

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« Reply #119 on: May 07, 2004, 11:48:11 PM »

then shouldn't it be called the holy see of damascus? if it know longer exist within the city/place where it was founded by the apstles,  then was is the point.

are there any christians left in antioch?

and should not the patriarch of costantnople be called the patriarch of "istanbul". Constantinople doesn't longer exist.

This is the post I referenced three posts up just for thsoe who are trying to keep track of the conversation.

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« Reply #120 on: May 07, 2004, 11:51:19 PM »

its not teh cover story--its historical fact.  ERcatholics under rome did not exist until about 500 years ago (at least not in Slavic countries) and therefore churches older than that were originally Orthodox.  I know this may be difficult for you to understand, being based on logic unlike your argument which started this thread.

There is no hypocrsy in my posts, but since you bring it up, you mentioned in one of your posts on the first page of this thread that the Patriarchs of Antioch should change their title to Patriarch of Damascus since they reside there *in exile* from their normal see.  Then when someone pointed out that this too should apply to the pope of rome, you changed your story.  I smell a dead fish.

Jeo Zollars

It is called revisionist history.

really........ how many catholic countries are located in eastern europe, joe? that are slavic in origin.

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« Reply #121 on: May 07, 2004, 11:54:16 PM »

btw, here is a relevant Link:  Serbian Orthodox Bishop Shocked and Dissapointed

Note to admins/mods:  I do not mean this as forum pluggin as I no longer participate in that forum.  I was given the link by a friend in the course of our discussing this issue.

Joe Zollars

sure and you forget to mention that the serbs have been persecuting the croatian who happen to be catholic. this just another example of telling half the story while at the same time hiding the rest of the story.
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« Reply #122 on: May 07, 2004, 11:55:42 PM »

yeah sure.  Ukraine--Orthodox until Polish Jesuits converted the people at weapon point.  Its not called revisionist history my friend, its called facts.  

Yes there are some *Roman* rite countries over there, but the Unia is made up solely of ex-Orthodox and groups that were condemned by the Orthodox but accepted byRome.

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« Reply #123 on: May 07, 2004, 11:56:13 PM »

uh-huh.  Well you know your right.  What was serbia thinking fighting against an invading force and all?! tsk tsk.  BTW, no-one here aproves of Slobodon Malosovich, but there is a wrong way and a right way to take him out.  Guess which one the godless western christian apostates chose?

Joe Zollars

notice how you resort to name calling cause you can't deal with the facts.

also, notice that I have yet to call you any derogatory names. I alway take the high moral road.
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« Reply #124 on: May 07, 2004, 11:57:46 PM »

yeah sure.  Ukraine--Orthodox until Polish Jesuits converted the people at weapon point.  Its not called revisionist history my friend, its called facts.  

Yes there are some *Roman* rite countries over there, but the Unia is made up solely of ex-Orthodox and groups that were condemned by the Orthodox but accepted byRome.

Joe Zollars

really is that another cover story... at gun point?   wow those jesuits really do get around. they manage to convert all those slavic people to catholicism.

tell me where you protestant?
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« Reply #125 on: May 07, 2004, 11:58:27 PM »

yeah sure.  Ukraine--Orthodox until Polish Jesuits converted the people at weapon point.  Its not called revisionist history my friend, its called facts.  

Yes there are some *Roman* rite countries over there, but the Unia is made up solely of ex-Orthodox and groups that were condemned by the Orthodox but accepted byRome.

Joe Zollars

some try perhaps the majority of eastern countries are catholic.
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« Reply #126 on: May 08, 2004, 12:01:49 AM »

umm-no.  The Majority of EAStern Catholci Countries were historically ORthodox and are today falling prey to the secular humanism of hte west.  

and what on God's green earth does my religious background have to do with the color of moon pies in Chicago?  

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #127 on: May 08, 2004, 12:04:45 AM »

really is that another cover story... at gun point?   wow those jesuits really do get around. they manage to convert all those slavic people to catholicism.

tell me where you protestant?

yeah all those people.  oh you mean the comparitivly microscopic EC groups?  the Latin Rite countries had been Latin rite from back when Rome was in the Church.  Rome Sent missionaries as did Constantinople in ajoint effort to the slavs.  

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #128 on: May 08, 2004, 12:08:52 AM »

umm-no.  The Majority of EAStern Catholci Countries were historically ORthodox and are today falling prey to the secular humanism of hte west.  

and what on God's green earth does my religious background have to do with the color of moon pies in Chicago?  

Joe Zollars

ummm yes.... those countries were NEVER othodox ..............they have always been catholic.  oh I forgot the jesuits got to them. lets keep that secret quiet.

how can a group of nations that were communist and athiest  fall prey to secular humanism?
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« Reply #129 on: May 08, 2004, 12:23:14 AM »

uhhuh.  Russia, Serbia, Hungary*, Slovakia*, Belarus, Ukraine, Romania, Bulgaria, Albania*, historic Transcarpathia, the Ukraine, and Poland*. All these countries are/were Orthodox historically.

Edit:  I forgot Georgia.

*While these countries are not entirely ORthodox, they have very ancient ORthodox sees dating from before the east-west schism.

JOe Zollars
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« Reply #130 on: May 08, 2004, 07:43:32 PM »

Joe,

So...have you always been orthodox?
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« Reply #131 on: May 09, 2004, 05:00:55 PM »

lets see the definition of defunct:

1. not operating now: no longer operative, valid, or functional
2. dead: no longer alive or in existence
 
From where do you get the information that all those in latin america and western euorpe are defunct when these are heavily catholic areas?

also, what is a titular bishop and how are they different? and how do you know if they are defunct? where does it say that?

A titular bishop is an auxiliary bishop who is given the title of a titular diocese.  A titular diocese is a diocese, once in existence, which for whatever reason is defunct.  You know the meaning of defunct.  

To my knowledge, I did not cite any other list than the list of titulars.  If there are titular sees in South America and Europe, it doesn't mean that the RCC in those areas is dead; it means that a diocese that was once there is no more, and probably replaced by another.  

The reason for giving bishops the title of a titular see is the idea that a bishop is ordained for a diocese.  Auxiliary bishops for existing sees do not have a real see of their own, so they are given a titular one.  However, this is the same type of "reminiscing" you criticise the Orthodox for.  

But I don't think this is "reminiscing"...that is a concept you have introduced, against the legitimate customs of both the Orthodox Church and the RC's.  I am more inclined to think that you are wrong on this point.
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« Reply #132 on: May 09, 2004, 05:07:30 PM »

Joe,

So...have you always been orthodox?

As asked by me earlier, What on God's green earth does my personal religious background have to do with the color of moon pies in Chicago?

I prefer not to share my personal information with trolls.  

So the short answer is, none of your business.  Stop being rude.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #133 on: May 09, 2004, 05:08:05 PM »

and btw, when are going to answer the many points brought up in this thread?

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #134 on: May 09, 2004, 05:15:20 PM »

As asked by me earlier, What on God's green earth does my personal religious background have to do with the color of moon pies in Chicago?

I prefer not to share my personal information with trolls.  

So the short answer is, none of your business.  Stop being rude.

Joe Zollars

must we resort to childish name calling, Joe?


Yours truly,

The little euro troll.
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