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jac109
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« on: May 09, 2004, 11:20:02 PM »

[Don't think these people don't have any influence. It was the Lubavitchers who got the US Congress to pass the "Noahide Laws", under which Christianity would be considered "idolatry" according to Jewish law. The Muslims aren't the only opposition the Church faces.]

The Noah's Covenant Web Site
http://www.noahide.com/index2.htm

Excerpt from "Who was Jesus?" at http://www.noahide.com/yeshu.htm

"In the book of the prophet Daniel, this false prophet is described as a king (the eleventh horn on a terrible beast) who would wage war against the Jews (the 'holy ones'; see Deut. 14:2 on this term) and would change the Law n++ including the calendar and the holidays (Daniel 7:8, 20-25). Elsewhere, this false prophet is described as a king who would disregard the G-d of his fathers, exalting himself as a god and giving honor to this new god-head (Daniel 11:36-39).

The man known today as 'Jesus' fulfilled all these prophecies. He became a 'king' (over the Christian church) who changed the original Law, doing away with the Hebrew calendar and the Biblical holidays (Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Sukkos n++ the Festival of Tabernacles, Passover, etc.). He disregarded the one, infinite G-d of the Hebrew Bible in favor of a new 'trinity' that included himself. And he repeatedly broke the Law by committing terrible sins, while openly challenging the G-d-given authority of the rabbis of the Sanhedrin."
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« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2004, 08:31:52 AM »

That's a well-known anti-semetic myth.  What was passed was just a resolution honoring the rebbe.  There was some language about how history had been on the Noahide laws.  Nothing at all that could be considered to be Congress "passing" the Noahide laws.  

Further, there is disagreement in Judaism as to whether Christianity constitutes idolatry.  Some believe that we practice idolatry and therefore are violating the Noahide laws.  Others disagree.  

The fundamental difference between Jews and Muslims is that the former doesn't prosletize.  The Jews don't really care what we do.
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« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2004, 10:40:05 AM »

[Don't think these people don't have any influence. It was the Lubavitchers who got the US Congress to pass the "Noahide Laws", under which Christianity would be considered "idolatry" according to Jewish law. The Muslims aren't the only opposition the Church faces.]

Please, what are these laws the congress passed?  Put up or shut up!  What drivel.  Go back to your reading of Mein Kampf.
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« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2004, 01:42:24 AM »

Please, what are these laws the congress passed?  Put up or shut up!  What drivel.  Go back to your reading of Mein Kampf.

I am truly amazed at the strenuous defense of this Pharisee by supposed Christians! But I suppose I did err on one technical point: The US government didn't exactly pass the Noahide laws, per se, but rather passed a bill endorsing the Noahide laws. But what is important is they praised an anti-Christian Pharisee, Rabbi Schneerson, and endorsed something that is absolutely anti-Christian. Yes, the Noahide Laws ban Christianity and makes Christians subject to the death penalty! Don't believe me, let their own words convince you. (All quotes taken from Jewish Noahide Law websites.)

First, just so there's no confusion, here's what the US government did in regard to the Noahide Laws:

The U.S. Congress officially recognized the Noahide Laws in legislation which was passed by both  houses. Congress and the President of the United States (then Ronald Reagan) indicated in Public Law  102-14, 102nd Congress, that the United States of America was founded upon the Seven Universal Laws of Noah, and that these Laws have been the bedrock of society from the dawn of civilization.
http://u-r-next.com/PL102-14.htm

Now to the matters related to Noahide Laws and Christianity:

Idolatry Defined according to Jewish Law for “Noahides” (non-Jews):

11. Crosses that are publicly displayed are in the category of idols since people give honor to them, remove their hats before them, and bow down or genuflect to them. However, the cross that hangs around a person's neck is considered a memorial and is permitted. Other personal uses like dangling the cross from the rear view mirror of an automobile are also permitted.[53]

12. However, priests who have crosses in their vestments or around the neck represent something very different from the cross of a person who wears it as a memorial, since the priest stands as a figure of religious authority. Therefore, one must never bow to such priests nor remove the hat in front of them nor do anything that may give the appearance that one worships the cross worn by a priest. If one bows or removes a hat as a gesture of giving honor to God, it must be discreetly away from the presence of such a cross, and preferably prior to the priest's appearance. If it is in a place and a sect where it is known that these worshipers do not bow down to their images, but rather to the honor of the priests that wear them, then one can be lenient to avoid offending these priests. But where it is known that the people bow down to their statues and crosses in a manner that would clearly appear idolatrous, one must be strict and avoid this.

16. It is idolatry to consume a food or a drink with the idea that it is the substance of a god and that the person consuming them is therefore assimilating the substance of the god into his own being. (Note: The Children of Noah have historically fallen into idolatrous practices because of a lack of discernment between Elokah and Elokut, God and Godliness. One can say that all of creation is Godly because it all contains God's life force, but to say that anything of creation is God is idolatry.)
http://www.moshiach.com/action/morality/idolatry.php

The punishment for non-Jews violating any of the seven Noahide Laws:

15. The statutory punishment for transgressing any one of the Seven Laws of Noah is capital punishment. [15] According to some, punishment is the same whether one transgresses with knowledge of the law or is ignorant of the law. [16] According to others, a transgressor of the Noahide Law who is ignorant of the law receives the death penalty only in the case of murder. [17]
http://www.moshiach.com/


Anti-Christmas article from a Lubavitcher website:

"...according to the known Jewish ruling that Christians are idol worshippers." (Likkutei Sichos 37:198)

A gentile...is liable for the death penalty...if he has invented a religious holiday for himself...The general principle is we do not allow them to make new religious rituals and to make 'mitzvahs' for themselves by their own devices. Rather they may either become a Ger Tzeddek and accept all the Mitvahs; or he (the Noahide) should stand fast in his Torah (the seven Noahide Laws) without adding or diminishing...and if he does make some new 'mitzvah,' we lash him, punish him, and inform him that he is obligated with the death penalty for this..." (Rambam Mishne Torah—Hilchos Melachim 10:9)
http://www.noahide.com/xmas.htm

Another one from the same site:

Christianity, moreover, is absolute idolatry, not shittuf (partnership of deities), based on at least two of its beliefs (held almost universally by the estimated 1.9 billion Christians worldwide): (1) That the other two members of the "trinity" are of equal power and stature to Hashem (G-d forbid!), and (2) that the physical world is primarily under the dominion of the Satan, who is in an actual state of rebellion against G-d (G-d forbid!). Christianity, therefore, does not fit the definition of shittuf given by the Lubavitcher Rebbe ("Mayim Rabim," Sefer Hama'amarim vol. 1, pp. 51-62; 1957).

GÇó The Rambam, indeed, officially rules in three places that Christianity is idolatry and thus forbidden to gentiles (Mishneh Torah, Hilchos Ma'achalos Asuros 11:7 and Hilchos Avodas Kochavim 9:4; commentary on Mishnah, Avodah Zarah 1:3), and implies the same in a fourth place (Hilchos Melachim 11:4) (Note: these texts are censored from the standard editions of these works). The Rambam further rules that any religion which would believe in shittuf would also be prohibited to gentiles (Hilchos Melachim 9:2).
http://www.noahide.com/xmas2.htm
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« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2004, 12:26:11 PM »

Jennifer,

Quote
That's a well-known anti-semetic myth.  What was passed was just a resolution honoring the rebbe.  There was some language about how history had been on the Noahide laws.  Nothing at all that could be considered to be Congress "passing" the Noahide laws.

I think our friend over stated the case - no laws were passed, obviously.  They honoured Schneerson by placing "education day" on his birthday, if memory serves, and Reagan went on about how "Noachide law" is somehow the basis of western law or something like this (though I'd think the deists who founded the United States, or the Enlightenment philosophy which underlay the revolutions in France and America might beg to differ.)

Quote
Further, there is disagreement in Judaism as to whether Christianity constitutes idolatry.  Some believe that we practice idolatry and therefore are violating the Noahide laws.  Others disagree.

Generally the "non-idolater" view was more a "get along" attitude, and not so much a ruling.  It's the same reason why the Jews edited the Talmud, blurring references they knew the powers that be (European Christians) found offensive, since they had run-ins with the RCC during the middle ages over this.

OTOH, "great sages" like Maimonedes (whose credo holds the place in Judaism that the Nicean-Constantinopolean creed holds amongst Christians) were very clear in stating Christianity was a form of idolatry.

Know that this Christian nation, who advocates the messianic claim in all their various sects, all of them are idolaters. On all their various festivals it is forbidden for us to deal with them. And all Torah restrictions pertaining to idolaters pertain to them. . . . We deal with them as we would deal with any idolaters on their festival. (Commentary on the Misnah: Avodah Zarah 1.3, ed. Y. Kafih (Jerusalem, 1965), 2:225. See, also, ibid., 1.4, p. 226; MT: Avodah Zarah, 9.4 (full text in Kafih’s ed. of Commentary on the Mishnah, 2:225, n. 10)

Quote
The fundamental difference between Jews and Muslims is that the former doesn't prosletize.  The Jews don't really care what we do.

If only that were true.  I think the recent debaucle (it actually backfired, big time) over Mel Gibson's The Passion demonstrates there are quite a few Jewish opinion makers who most certainly do care about what Christians do.  The same goes for the prolonged extraction of apologies and concessions they've bled out of your church for the last fourty years (and which JP II seems happy to offer them.)

Part of this is "Jewish paranoia", which is itself an interesting subject (with shades of "self fulfilling prophecy" colouring any such discourse); part of it, however, relates to the form of Messianism which lies at the heart of Judaism, and has done such since the time of the Pharisees - it is really the key division between the Church and the Synagogue, the faithful remnant and the unfaithful multitude (back in the days of the Apostles.)  For the Jews, salvation is a fundamentally political affair.

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« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2004, 10:07:13 PM »


OTOH, "great sages" like Maimonedes (whose credo holds the place in Judaism that the Nicean-Constantinopolean creed holds amongst Christians) were very clear in stating Christianity was a form of idolatry.

Maimonides believed Christianity was idolatry.  However, there's no consensus in Orthodox Judaism that we Christians are violating the Noahide laws.  

Quote
If only that were true.  I think the recent debaucle (it actually backfired, big time) over Mel Gibson's The Passion demonstrates there are quite a few Jewish opinion makers who most certainly do care about what Christians do.  The same goes for the prolonged extraction of apologies and concessions they've bled out of your church for the last fourty years (and which JP II seems happy to offer them.)

In my experience, Orthodox Jews (and the original poster referred to the Lubavitchers) do not "care" what non-Jews do.  My Orthodox Jewish acquaintances were hardly aware of the controversy.  They simply do keep up with gentile news.  It's not at all relevant to them.  They also don't 'obsess' over anti-semitism the way Reform and Conservative Jews do.  

Further, they are unconcerned with what we do in the sense that they don't think that we can commit sins.  For example, when asked about her opinion of abortion, an Orthodox Jewish acquaintance's first question was "was the mother Jewish?"  She really didn't care at all if a non-Jewish woman had an abortion.  

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« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2004, 10:24:56 PM »

I am truly amazed at the strenuous defense of this Pharisee by supposed Christians!

So we're "supposed Christians" for noting that you were incorrect about Congress enacting the Noahide laws?  

The fact is that there are certain things that are discussed obsessively by anti-semites, this supposed passing of the Noah laws by Congress and the Protocols of the Elders of Zions.  So whenever they are mentioned, a charge of anti-semitism will be made.  

BTW, let's be absolutely clear, anti-semitism is a heresy.  Anti-semites believe that race is more important than belief.  For example, Hitler refused to recognize converted Jews as anything but Jews.  That denies the power of baptism.  Further many anti-semitic groups believe other heresies about Christ.  

Quote
But I suppose I did err on one technical point: The US government didn't exactly pass the Noahide laws, per se, but rather passed a bill endorsing the Noahide laws.

You erred on a very important point, not merely a 'technicality.'  "Endorsing" the Noahide laws is very different from "passing" the Noahide laws.  Further, most conservative Christians would agree with the 'endorsement' if not the interpretation of the Noahide laws.  

Quote
But what is important is they praised an anti-Christian Pharisee, Rabbi Schneerson, and endorsed something that is absolutely anti-Christian.

We're a secular nation and are therefore allowed to praise anyone we choose.  I'm sure Congress has passed any number of resolutions praising other non-Christians and even anti-Christians.  

Here's the resolution:
"To designate March 26, 1991, as "Education Day, U.S.A."  
Whereas Congress recognizes the historical tradition of ethical
values and principles which are the basis of civilized society and
upon which our great Nation was founded;
  Whereas these ethical values and principles have been the bedrock
of society from the dawn of civilization, when they were known as
the Seven Noahide Laws; Whereas without these ethical values and
  principles the edifice of civilization stands in serious peril of
returning to chaos; Whereas society is profoundly concerned with
the recent weakening of these principles that has resulted in
crises that beleaguer and threaten the fabric of civilized society;

Whereas the justified preoccupation with these crises must not let
the citizens of this Nation lose sight of their responsibility to
transmit these historical ethical values from our distinguished
past to the generations of  the future;
 Whereas the Lubavitch movement has fostered and promoted these
ethical values and principles throughout the world;
 Whereas Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, leader of the Lubavitch
  movement, is  universally respected and revered and his eighty-
ninth birthday falls on March 26, 1991;
 Whereas in tribute to this great spiritual leader, "the rebbe",
this, his ninetieth year will be seen as one of "education and
giving", the year in which we turn to education and charity to
return the world to the moral and ethical values contained in the
Seven Noahide Laws; and
 Whereas this will be reflected in an International scroll of honor
signed by the President of the United States and other heads of
state Now, therefore be it Resolved by the Senate and House of
Representatives of the United States of America in Congress
assembled, That March 26, 1991, the start of the ninetieth year of
Rabbi Menachem Schneerson, leader of the worldwide Lubavitch
movement, is designated as "Education Day, U.S.A.". The President
is requested to issue a proclamation calling upon the people of the
United States to observe such day with appropriate ceremonies
  and activities. "

You need to be a bit more careful about where you look to for information.
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« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2004, 11:55:33 PM »

So we're "supposed Christians" for noting that you were incorrect about Congress enacting the Noahide laws?

No, I used "supposed" within quotations due to the knee-jerk criticism of me, an Orthodox Christian, and your inexplicable defense of the unambiguously anti-Christ rabbi. I have to wonder what side you are on?

Quote
The fact is that there are certain things that are discussed obsessively by anti-semites, this supposed passing of the Noah laws by Congress and the Protocols of the Elders of Zions.  So whenever they are mentioned, a charge of anti-semitism will be made.

That's a load of nonsense. I have no interest in those protocols, but I do have an interest in anti-Christian activity no matter where it comes from. Unlike some people, who, for whatever reason, seem to be so obessessively philo-semitic as to be unable to deal with any criticism of any Jewish individual or group, I will continue to criticize Muslims, pagans OR JEWS who are hostile towards or promote things disrespectful to Jesus Christ or the Orthodox Church.  

Quote
BTW, let's be absolutely clear, anti-semitism is a heresy.  Anti-semites believe that race is more important than belief.  For example, Hitler refused to recognize converted Jews as anything but Jews.  That denies the power of baptism.  Further many anti-semitic groups believe other heresies about Christ.

Ah, now we go from the protocols to Hitler. I have news for you, I don't care about Hitler. Hitler was as anti-Christian as rabbi Schneerson. I have as much use for pagan antichrists as Jewish antichrists.

Quote
You erred on a very important point, not merely a 'technicality.'  "Endorsing" the Noahide laws is very different from "passing" the Noahide laws.  Further, most conservative Christians would agree with the 'endorsement' if not the interpretation of the Noahide laws.  We're a secular nation and are therefore allowed to praise anyone we choose.  I'm sure Congress has passed any number of resolutions praising other non-Christians and even anti-Christians.  

You can praise these people who say that our Lord is a phoney and an idolator, but I refuse. You can defend the anti-christs, but I'm not. You can attack Christians who reveal anti-christian chicanery, but I'm not.


Quote
Here's the resolution:

I know what it says. I posted a link to it.

Quote
You need to be a bit more careful about where you look to for information.  

The essential facts are that the Noahide Laws are manifestly anti-Christian and I proved that with ample documentation taken directly from several Jewish websites. And the US government passed this legislation that endorses these anti-Christian Laws. And the man, rebbe Schneerson, who was specifically praised in the legislation, considers Jesus Christ a fraud and Christianity to be idolatry and the worship of Christ an offense punishable up to even death.

The Noahide Laws, if enacted as real laws as the good rebbe desires, would essentially outlaw the worship of Jesus Christ and subject Christians to severe punishment for "idolatry" under Jewish Noahide courts! These are facts as I have proven using their own words. Maybe you agree with all these things, but I don't.

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« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2004, 12:08:27 AM »

Quote
The essential facts are that the Noahide Laws are manifestly anti-Christian and I proved that with ample documentation taken directly from several Jewish websites. And the US government passed this legislation that endorses these anti-Christian Laws. And the man, rebbe Schneerson, who was specifically praised in the legislation, considers Jesus Christ a fraud and Christianity to be idolatry and the worship of Christ an offense punishable up to even death.

Wow, the rabbi sounds like a good fit for the ACLU Wink. He would fit right in with the rest of the leftist christian haters who are also on an anti christian crusade.
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« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2004, 12:12:01 AM »

Guys, starting to sound political. Tone it down Smiley
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« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2004, 01:01:57 AM »

yea...really political...wasn't this kinda stuff:

"He would fit right in with the rest of the leftist christian haters who are also on an anti christian crusade."

banned until June 8th???
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« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2004, 01:05:50 AM »

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banned until June 8th???

That's American Politics that is banned.
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« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2004, 01:18:31 AM »

Right, American politics was banned.  But I am starting to see references to Congress, Reagan, etc.  Keep the discussion up, BUT please keep it focused on the religious aspects Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2004, 09:50:45 AM »

Jennifer,

Quote
Maimonides believed Christianity was idolatry.  However, there's no consensus in Orthodox Judaism that we Christians are violating the Noahide laws.

While there are Jews who waffle on this, all of the serious treatments I've read on this (and from the religious Jews I've spoken to) is that there is no way of avoiding the conclusion from a Jewish p.o.v. that Christians are idolaters - though you can argue whether their definition of idolatry is valid, generally Rabbinical Judaism prohibits the idea that God can have a corporeal form, or that this form can be represented.

Quote
In my experience, Orthodox Jews (and the original poster referred to the Lubavitchers) do not "care" what non-Jews do.  My Orthodox Jewish acquaintances were hardly aware of the controversy.  They simply do keep up with gentile news.  It's not at all relevant to them.  They also don't 'obsess' over anti-semitism the way Reform and Conservative Jews do.

I think a distinction needs to be made between modernized Orthodox Jewry and Hasidism, particularly the Lubavitchers who are very activist in regards to their religion, whether it be towards secularized Jews, or "goyim."  You are correct though, that many religious ("Orthodox") Jews don't care much for or about non-Jews.  The prosyletizing of Phariseeism is one thing that didn't translate into post Temple Rabbinical Judaism (which in most other respects is the descendent of Phariseeism.)

The Lubavitchers are so active, because like many Hasids, they believe the coming of "Moschiach" will be hastened by the work they do.  Various Jewish "sages" have tough different theories on the details of this, but from what I've read it goes something like this...

- "Moschiach" will come when a certain number of "mitvot" (good deeds, commands from the Torah as enumerated by the Rabbis) are fulfilled.

- "Moschiach" will come the day all Jews on a single day observe certain commandments

Quote
Further, they are unconcerned with what we do in the sense that they don't think that we can commit sins.  For example, when asked about her opinion of abortion, an Orthodox Jewish acquaintance's first question was "was the mother Jewish?"  She really didn't care at all if a non-Jewish woman had an abortion.

While the reason for such ambivelence in most Jews (particularly non Hasids, who to varying degrees have absorbed western humanitarian values) is something cultural and picked up by osmosis, amongst the more fanatical Jews this view can be seen to have rather ugly origins.  There is a thread of Talmudic thought which basically equates the goyim with animals (though clever, potentially dangerous animals), whose lives are on a lower rung than those of Jews (a much more widespread sentiment/assumption), whose well being and interests can never outweigh those of the Jewish people.

This is yet another big, basic division between the Church and the Synagogue which goes back right to the beginning.  While the Christian believes the Old Covenant (and the people of Israel who were a part of this) were a preparation for the Messiah (like the tilling of a garden, to prepare for the flowering of a choice plant which would feed the entire world), Judaism basically considers the Messiah to be the coronation of Judaism and the Jewish people.  If you read the New Testament carefully, even the Apostles (as they followed our Lord for three years) had ideas like this in their heads - illusions about the Messiah violently putting down the Romans, the establishment of a temporal (if "Godly") world wide messianic kingdom, at which the Jews would be at the top, etc.  This false messianism, while abandoned by the Apostles, is still more or less in tact amongst religious Jews.  I think it even effects more secularized Jews; while they tend to minimalize any supernatural elements, such people are consumed with utopian ideas (progressivism being, at it's heart, utopian - the idea that men can be naturally made better, that paradise can be achieved on earth, etc.)

A common Jewish belief is that all souls were created at once, and are slowly being "bled" out into the world over time.  This is why Jews (and certainly Hasids) believe that all Jewish souls were created at once, and seperately from those of the goyim - hence the belief of Hasids (and I'm guessing Orthodox Jews, since this is apparently a belief found in the Talmud) that it was not only those who physically left Egypt who were present at Mt.Sinai, but all Jewish souls were present.  I've even heard it articulated that if a gentile converts to Judaism, this means that their soul was in fact a Jewish one that somehow was born to goy parents.  As an aside, this clearly Platonistic belief reminds me of the Islamic belief about "fitra" (that Islam is the natural religion of mankind); Muslims also believe the same thing about the creation of all souls at once, "in the beginning".  In their version of things, the Muslims will say that everyone (before they were conceived) swore before Al'lah that "he is one" etc... so basically if someone is born, and is not a Muslim (and dies an "infidel") they are somehow held to account for breaking a promise.  I wouldn't be surprised if this is a manifestation of the Judaic origins of many Islamic beliefs (many scholars believing that Islam was a fusion of Arabian paganism, Judaism, and Nestorian Christianity.)

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« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2004, 01:17:23 PM »

Wow, the rabbi sounds like a good fit for the ACLU Wink. He would fit right in with the rest of the leftist christian haters who are also on an anti christian crusade.

First, it's the 'rebbe' not the 'rabbi.'  Second, he's dead.  Third, he's hardly a 'leftist.'  In fact, the Lubavitcher's are a powerful political group in NYC that tends to vote Republican.  Why do you think Bush I felt the need to 'honor' him?
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« Reply #15 on: May 12, 2004, 01:27:58 PM »

Jennifer,While there are Jews who waffle on this, all of the serious treatments I've read on this (and from the religious Jews I've spoken to) is that there is no way of avoiding the conclusion from a Jewish p.o.v. that Christians are idolaters - though you can argue whether their definition of idolatry is valid, generally Rabbinical Judaism prohibits the idea that God can have a corporeal form, or that this form can be represented.

I agree.  Although the Orthodox Jews I've known haven't themselves believed that Christians were idolators.  Like I wrote earlier they don't concern themselves with what we do.  I've also noticed that non-Lubavitchers don't know anything about the Noahide laws.  

Quote
I think a distinction needs to be made between modernized Orthodox Jewry and Hasidism, particularly the Lubavitchers who are very activist in regards to their religion, whether it be towards secularized Jews, or "goyim."  You are correct though, that many religious ("Orthodox") Jews don't care much for or about non-Jews.  The prosyletizing of Phariseeism is one thing that didn't translate into post Temple Rabbinical Judaism (which in most other respects is the descendent of Phariseeism.)

We also need to differentiate between the Lubavitchers and other 'ultra-Orthodox' Jews.  The former is somewhat 'obsessed' with the Noahide laws while the former are often not even aware they exist.  

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« Reply #16 on: May 12, 2004, 01:30:31 PM »

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First, it's the 'rebbe' not the 'rabbi.'  Second, he's dead.  Third, he's hardly a 'leftist.'  In fact, the Lubavitcher's are a powerful political group in NYC that tends to vote Republican.  Why do you think Bush I felt the need to 'honor' him?  

Ok Jenny, I stand corrected.  Wink
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« Reply #17 on: May 12, 2004, 01:33:49 PM »

No, I used "supposed" within quotations due to the knee-jerk criticism of me, an Orthodox Christian, and your inexplicable defense of the unambiguously anti-Christ rabbi. I have to wonder what side you are on?

What "side" am I on?  I wasn't aware there were "sides."  

Get your facts straight if you want people to respect you.
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« Reply #18 on: May 12, 2004, 01:51:06 PM »

What "side" am I on?  I wasn't aware there were "sides."  

Get your facts straight if you want people to respect you.  

LOL! I think I provided many facts:

1. US government formally endorsed the Noahide Laws.

2. US government specifically praised Rebbe Schneerson.

3. Noahide Laws are anti-Christian, since Christianity is considered as "idolatry" according to Jewish law and Rebbe Schneerson, the practice of which would be a captital offense if the Noahide Laws were actually in effect.

So what side am I on? I categorically oppose both the Noahide Laws and any endorsement of anyone supporting them.

What side are you on? I'm trying to find out, since you obviously defended both the Noahide laws and Rebbe Schneerson, while, by inference, falsely accused me of being an advocate of the Protocols of Zion and a supporter of Adolf Hitler.

Here's one last question for you: Do you think the Fathers of the Church, if alive today, would endorse either the Noahide laws or Rebbe Schneerson?

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« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2004, 02:13:51 PM »

LOL! I think I provided many facts:

Your original post was wrong.  You made an incorrect claim often made by anti-semites.  So you can't expect to get much respect.  

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3. Noahide Laws are anti-Christian, since Christianity is considered as "idolatry" according to Jewish law and Rebbe Schneerson, the practice of which would be a captital offense if the Noahide Laws were actually in effect.

"According to Jewish law?"  What "Jewish law?"  You don't know what you're talking about.  Some Jewish scholars say that Christianity is idolatry.  Other scholars disagree.  There is no 'pronouncement' in Jewish law that Christianity is idolatry.    

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So what side am I on? I categorically oppose both the Noahide Laws and any endorsement of anyone supporting them.

What side are you on? I'm trying to find out,

I'm not on a "side" because there are no "sides."  
 
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I'm trying to find out, since you obviously defended both the Noahide laws and Rebbe Schneerson, while, by inference, falsely accused me of being an advocate of the Protocols of Zion and a supporter of Adolf Hitler.

"Obviously defensed?"  Now I see how you got confused in the first place.  

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Here's one last question for you: Do you think the Fathers of the Church, if alive today, would endorse either the Noahide laws or Rebbe Schneerson?

I think you're still a little confused.  The Fathers of the Church are not the same thing as a secular democracy that prohibits the establishment of religion.  You see the USA is not the Church.  

To answer your absolutely irrelevant and hence silly question, of course they would not "endorse" the Noahide laws.
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« Reply #20 on: May 12, 2004, 03:07:52 PM »

Your original post was wrong.  You made an incorrect claim often made by anti-semites.
 

OK, I've already modified that.

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"According to Jewish law?"  What "Jewish law?"  You don't know what you're talking about.

I can only go by what the Lubavitcher and pro-Lubavitcher websites say about it. I posted these excerpts, but you apparently didn't see them:

"...according to the known Jewish ruling that Christians are idol worshippers." (Likkutei Sichos 37:198)

A gentile...is liable for the death penalty...if he has invented a religious holiday for himself...The general principle is we do not allow them to make new religious rituals and to make 'mitzvahs' for themselves by their own devices. Rather they may either become a Ger Tzeddek and accept all the Mitvahs; or he (the Noahide) should stand fast in his Torah (the seven Noahide Laws) without adding or diminishing...and if he does make some new 'mitzvah,' we lash him, punish him, and inform him that he is obligated with the death penalty for this..." (Rambam Mishne Torah—Hilchos Melachim 10:9)
http://www.noahide.com/xmas.htm

Another one from the same site:

Christianity, moreover, is absolute idolatry, not shittuf (partnership of deities), based on at least two of its beliefs (held almost universally by the estimated 1.9 billion Christians worldwide): (1) That the other two members of the "trinity" are of equal power and stature to Hashem (G-d forbid!), and (2) that the physical world is primarily under the dominion of the Satan, who is in an actual state of rebellion against G-d (G-d forbid!). Christianity, therefore, does not fit the definition of shittuf given by the Lubavitcher Rebbe ("Mayim Rabim," Sefer Hama'amarim vol. 1, pp. 51-62; 1957).

GÇó The Rambam, indeed, officially rules in three places that Christianity is idolatry and thus forbidden to gentiles (Mishneh Torah, Hilchos Ma'achalos Asuros 11:7 and Hilchos Avodas Kochavim 9:4; commentary on Mishnah, Avodah Zarah 1:3), and implies the same in a fourth place (Hilchos Melachim 11:4) (Note: these texts are censored from the standard editions of these works). The Rambam further rules that any religion which would believe in shittuf would also be prohibited to gentiles (Hilchos Melachim 9:2).
http://www.noahide.com/xmas2.htm



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Some Jewish scholars say that Christianity is idolatry.  Other scholars disagree.  There is no 'pronouncement' in Jewish law that Christianity is idolatry.    I'm not on a "side" because there are no "sides."

Which scholars disagree? I think its pretty widely accepted by Orthodox Jews that Christianity is idolatry. Maybe not every one of them agrees with that, but it is generally accepted. We do know that "The Rambam" (Moses Maimonides), probably the most revered figure in Rabbic Judaism, certainly thinks Christianity is idolatry.

But specifically, the main point in regard to this discussion is how do Rebbe Schneerson and his supporters regard Christianity, since the government enactment was obviously an endorsement of these. Their position on that is certainly in the mainstream of Orthodox Judaism.

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"Obviously defensed?"  Now I see how you got confused in the first place.  I think you're still a little confused.  The Fathers of the Church are not the same thing as a secular democracy that prohibits the establishment of religion.  You see the USA is not the Church.
 

What would you so supportive if the government gave its official endorsement to a set of laws which outlawed the practice Judaism?

Would you support the government's official endorsement of a man who actually desired to make the practice of Judaism a punishable crime?

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To answer your absolutely irrelevant and hence silly question, of course they would not "endorse" the Noahide laws.  

So why do YOU defend people who would impose the Noahide Laws? Why on earth do you attack fellow Christians while defending a man who believes our Holy Savior is a fraud and the worship of Him is idolatry and should be against the law?

BTW, my interest is not what's best for "secular democracy," but what's best for Christianity.

Also, I might add that I'm old enough to remember when prayer and Bible reading were done in the public schools and every teacher had a Bible on his or her desk. In case you don't know, that was the case in America from the time of Pilgrims until the early 1960s. I remember when America openly acknowledged her Christian foundations and customs. Nowadays one can barely do that without being sued or threatened with arrest. This is how far we've sunk and why America has become a moral cesspool.

I have news for you, this country didn't start out as a "secular democracy." The fact that Christianity has been driven from so many areas of the society over the past 50 years by renegade judges and/or at the instigation of  anti-Christians doesn't change what America originally was. And I have no doubt that Rebbe Schneerson and his ilk were all in favor of encouraging the transformation of America from a Christian society to a "secular democracy" which suppresses the expression of Christianity, or as he considers it, "idolatry."
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« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2004, 03:28:06 PM »

I can only go by what the Lubavitcher and pro-Lubavitcher websites say about it. I posted these excerpts, but you apparently didn't see them:

The Lubavitchers are only one of the great Hasidic dynasties.  First, not all Orthodox Jews are Hasidic.  There are also the Modern Orthodox and non-Hasidic 'ultra-Orthodox.'  The Lubavitchers do not speak for all of Orthodox Judaism.  In fact there are those within Orthodox Judaism who believe the Lubavitchers are heretics.  

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What would you so supportive if the government gave its official endorsement to a set of laws which outlawed the practice Judaism?

"So supportive?"  Hardly.  Like I wrote in my earlier post, I can see how you got so confused.  Obviously reading comprehension is not one of your strong suits.  

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Would you support the government's official endorsement of a man who actually desired to make the practice of Judaism a punishable crime?So why do YOU defend people who would impose the Noahide Laws? Why on earth do you attack fellow Christians while defending a man who believes our Holy Savior is a fraud and the worship of Him is idolatry and should be against the law?

I "attack" fellow Christians when they write things that aren't true.  I "attack" fellow Christians when they twist the facts to suit their agenda.  

Again "defend people?"  Come on now.  You can read so you should be able to tell the difference.  

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BTW, my interest is not what's best for "secular democracy," but what's best for Christianity.

Also, I might add that I'm old enough to remember when prayer and Bible reading were done in the public schools and every teacher had a Bible on his or her desk. In case you don't know, that was the case in America from the time of Pilgrims until the early 1960s. I remember when America openly acknowledged her Christian foundations and customs. Nowadays one can barely do that without being sued or threatened with arrest. This is how far we've sunk and why America has become a moral cesspool.

I have news for you, this country didn't start out as a "secular democracy." The fact that Christianity has been driven from so many areas of the society over the past 50 years by renegade judges and/or at the instigation of  anti-Christians doesn't change what America originally was. And I have no doubt that Rebbe Schneerson and his ilk were all in favor of encouraging the transformation of America from a Christian society to a "secular democracy" which suppresses the expression of Christianity, or as he considers it, "idolatry."

Oh no, another one of "those."  More ignorance is just what this website needed.  

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« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2004, 04:24:39 PM »

The Lubavitchers are only one of the great Hasidic dynasties.  First, not all Orthodox Jews are Hasidic.  There are also the Modern Orthodox and non-Hasidic 'ultra-Orthodox.'  The Lubavitchers do not speak for all of Orthodox Judaism.  In fact there are those within Orthodox Judaism who believe the Lubavitchers are heretics.


I was aware of all that, but can you find any Orthodox Jew who would label Rambam a heretic? I highly doubt it. That would almost be like finding an Orthodox Christian who considers St. Luke a heretic.

But I guess I have to remind you again that this discussion has to do with the specific legislation passed by the goverenment which endorses the Noahide Laws and praises the inarguably anti-christian Pharaisee, Rebbe Schneerson. So the issue is not whether each and every Orthodox Jew agrees with the Lubavitchers, but what are the Noahide Laws and how does Rebbe Schneerson interpret them. And I think I have proven that the Noahide Laws as implimented under Schneerson's interpretation would subject Christians to the death penalty for "idolatry."

Personally, I think that if it were known that the official endorsement of Noahide Laws, as implimented based upon the interpretation of Schneerson, would actually outlaw the worship of Jesus Christ, it would have never been passed by the government. So I would contend that a certain amount of deception was involved to get that bill passed.

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"So supportive?"  Hardly.  Like I wrote in my earlier post, I can see how you got so confused.  Obviously reading comprehension is not one of your strong suits.  I "attack" fellow Christians when they write things that aren't true.  I "attack" fellow Christians when they twist the facts to suit their agenda.
 

My agenda? What is my "agenda," considering we have never met and you know nothing about me. You've basically accused me of being a devotee of both the Zionist Protocols and Adolf Hitler, neither of which are true. But what about YOUR agenda, Jennifer? A Christian who apparently has many Orthodox Jews as friends? What does the Bible say about associating with non-believers? Why would any Christian be friends with people who think Jesus Christ is a fraud?  BTW, I have Jews in my immediate family (some of them I like personally, but my associations are obviously not of my own choosing). So I have some familiarity with Jews. Thankfully they're not Orthodox, but even then I've heard quite a bit of anti-Christian talk from at least one of them. The others are possibly just more discreet.

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Again "defend people?"  Come on now.  You can read so you should be able to tell the difference.  Oh no, another one of "those."  More ignorance is just what this website needed.  

LOL! "One of those." Jennifer, do you recall what the Bible says about the "double-minded man?" I can't help but be remined of that when I read your comments. You claim to be a Christian, but you run to defend Jews and apparently think anyone who supports Christianity and opposes the suppression of Christianity is ignorant. This kind of mindset is very typical of liberals who have no difficulty in having two contradictory ideas in their mind simultaniously.

Maybe you can clarify, but its sounds like your religion is actually secular democracy!

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« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2004, 05:03:00 PM »



I was aware of all that, but can you find any Orthodox Jew who would label Rambam a heretic? I highly doubt it. That would almost be like finding an Orthodox Christian who considers St. Luke a heretic.

But I guess I have to remind you again that this discussion has to do with the specific legislation passed by the goverenment which endorses the Noahide Laws and praises the inarguably anti-christian Pharaisee, Rebbe Schneerson. So the issue is not whether each and every Orthodox Jew agrees with the Lubavitchers, but what are the Noahide Laws and how does Rebbe Schneerson interpret them. And I think I have proven that the Noahide Laws as implimented under Schneerson's interpretation would subject Christians to the death penalty for "idolatry."

Personally, I think that if it were known that the official endorsement of Noahide Laws, as implimented based upon the interpretation of Schneerson, would actually outlaw the worship of Jesus Christ, it would have never been passed by the government. So I would contend that a certain amount of deception was involved to get that bill passed.  

Let me explain to this to you.  This was just a commendation of Rebbe Schneerson and some meaningless language about the Noahide laws.  That could not be considered by any rational person as an official "endorsement" (let alone enactment) of the Noahide laws.  

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My agenda? What is my "agenda," considering we have never met and you know nothing about me. You've basically accused me of being a devotee of both the Zionist Protocols and Adolf Hitler, neither of which are true. But what about YOUR agenda, Jennifer? A Christian who apparently has many Orthodox Jews as friends? What does the Bible say about associating with non-believers? Why would any Christian be friends with people who think Jesus Christ is a fraud?  BTW, I have Jews in my immediate family (some of them I like personally, but my associations are obviously not of my own choosing). So I have some familiarity with Jews. Thankfully they're not Orthodox, but even then I've heard quite a bit of anti-Christian talk from at least one of them. The others are possibly just more discreet.

I have not "basically accused" you of being a supporter of Hitler.  Although I think you're  confused about what constitutes "support" so perhaps you could have concluded that was my assertion.  

As to your accusation that I am somehow less of a Christian because (the horror!) I have some Orthodox Jewish friends, I think it proves my original assumption about you is correct.  I had a feeling that someone who would post about this was a bit 'suspect' but I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.  But now your true colors have come out for everyone to see.  

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LOL! "One of those." Jennifer, do you recall what the Bible says about the "double-minded man?" I can't help but be remined of that when I read your comments. You claim to be a Christian, but you run to defend Jews and apparently think anyone who supports Christianity and opposes the suppression of Christianity is ignorant.

"Run to defend Jews..."  Yeah, that's a phrase used by rational, fair-minded people.  As for you my "one of those" comment, I meant another "one of those" who believe that the US was a Christian country at its inception which I do think is "ignorant."  

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This kind of mindset is very typical of liberals who have no difficulty in having two contradictory ideas in their mind simultaniously.

"typical of liberals..."  Ah yes, what a familiar phrase.  Like I wrote earlier, the last thing this website needs is more people who write things like "typical of liberals."  

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Maybe you can clarify, but its sounds like your religion is actually secular democracy!

Yeah, you're right.  It definitely sounds like that.   Roll Eyes
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« Reply #24 on: May 12, 2004, 05:37:34 PM »

Let me explain to this to you.  This was just a commendation of Rebbe Schneerson and some meaningless language about the Noahide laws.  That could not be considered by any rational person as an official "endorsement" (let alone enactment) of the Noahide laws.  I have not "basically accused" you of being a supporter of Hitler.  Although I think you're  confused about what constitutes "support" so perhaps you could have concluded that was my assertion.

Meaningles language? The legislation says civilization itself is based on the Noahide Laws! Obviously, someone or some group lobbied to have that bill passed. They doubtless wouldn't agree that it was "meaningless language." And I'm sure the government has more important things to do that pass legislation consisting of "meaningless language."


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As to your accusation that I am somehow less of a Christian because (the horror!) I have some Orthodox Jewish friends, I think it proves my original assumption about you is correct.

You avoid issues like a jack rabbit running through a field of hunters! The issue is what does the Bible say about becoming closely associated with non-Christians? Its a simple question. So tell me, why would you be friends with people whose religion says your Savior is a fraud?

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 I had a feeling that someone who would post about this was a bit 'suspect' but I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt.  But now your true colors have come out for everyone to see.  "Run to defend Jews..."  

Well, you WERE the first person to defend them. I posted my initial message after 11 pm and you were there defending the Noahide Laws and Rebbe Schneerson at approximately 8 am the next morning. Of course, I don't know if you actually ran to your computer, but you were there pretty quick. LOL.


Quote
As for you my "one of those" comment, I meant another "one of those" who believe that the US was a Christian country at its inception which I do think is "ignorant."  "typical of liberals..."  Ah yes, what a familiar phrase.  Like I wrote earlier, the last thing this website needs is more people who write things like "typical of liberals."  Yeah, you're right.  It definitely sounds like that.

Well, are you a liberal or not? You tell me.

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« Reply #25 on: May 12, 2004, 05:42:44 PM »

I'm finding myself agreeing and sympathizing with Jennifer, and offended by the comments of her self-proclaimed "conservative" opponent.  D-O-E-S-N-O-T-C-O-M-P-U-T-E.  S-Y-S-T-E-M-S-O-V-E-R-L-O-A-D-I-N-G.  S-O-M-E-O-N-E-C-A-L-L-W-I-L-L-R-O-B-I-N-S-O-N. Wink
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« Reply #26 on: May 12, 2004, 05:48:25 PM »

Meaningles language? The legislation says civilization itself is based on the Noahide Laws! Obviously, someone or some group lobbied to have that bill passed. They doubtless wouldn't agree that it was "meaningless language." And I'm sure the government has more important things to do that pass legislation consisting of "meaningless language."

Do you know how many of these kinds of things are passed by Congress?  Obviously the Lubavitchers felt it was important for the 'endorsement' to be passed.  And politicians wanted their votes.  But it's "meaningless language" because it's not a law.  It's like how a day is National Hamburger Day.  Meaningless.  

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You avoid issues like a jack rabbit running through a field of hunters! The issue is what does the Bible say about becoming closely associated with non-Christians? Its a simple question. So tell me, why would you be friends with people whose religion says your Savior is a fraud?

I'm friends with Jews because I'm not a bigot.  

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Well, you WERE the first person to defend them. I posted my initial message after 11 pm and you were there defending the Noahide Laws and Rebbe Schneerson at approximately 8 am the next morning. Of course, I don't know if you actually ran to your computer, but you were there pretty quick. LOL.Well, are you a liberal or not? You tell me.

I've tried to be 'obscure' about your accusing me of "defending" the Noahide Laws.  Obviously I need to be more forthright because you don't get it.  I have not "defended" the Noahide Laws.  Obviously you can't tell the difference which doesn't surprise me given that you don't know the difference between "endorsement" and "enactment."  

As for whether I'm a "liberal," I don't use labels like "liberal" and "conservative."  I've noticed that people who use those labels are too ignorant to understand other people's viewpoints.  

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« Reply #27 on: May 12, 2004, 06:31:28 PM »


As for whether I'm a "liberal," I don't use labels like "liberal" and "conservative."  I've noticed that people who use those labels are too ignorant to understand other people's viewpoints.  


Why can't liberals ever admit they are liberal? I've asked dozens of liberals that question and they never can give a straight answer. LOL!

Ok, let me ask this: Who did you support in the last US presidental election, Gore or Bush?
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« Reply #28 on: May 12, 2004, 06:35:26 PM »

Why can't liberals ever admit they are liberal? I've asked dozens of liberals that question and they never can give a straight answer. LOL!

Ok, let me ask this: Who did you support in the last US presidental election, Gore or Bush?


This is probably bordering on violating the moratorium on political discussions.  

BTW, based on this conversation, I doubt you'd know a "straight" answer if you heard one.  You say I've "defended" the Noahide laws so I think you'd say anything.
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« Reply #29 on: May 12, 2004, 06:40:03 PM »

This is probably bordering on violating the moratorium on political discussions.  

BTW, based on this conversation, I doubt you'd know a "straight" answer if you heard one.  You say I've "defended" the Noahide laws so I think you'd say anything.  

Its not actually political.

Gore or Bush? Just pick one. What's so complicated? I'm not advocating either one. I want to see if you can answer a simple question.

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« Reply #30 on: May 12, 2004, 06:40:13 PM »

What on earth does her being "liberal" or "conservative" have a flip to do with opposing bigotry and ill informed statements about laws congress has not in fact passed?

BTW, I voted for Reagan, Bush I, Dole, and W.
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« Reply #31 on: May 12, 2004, 06:45:48 PM »

What on earth does her being "liberal" or "conservative" have a flip to do with opposing bigotry and ill informed statements about laws congress has not in fact passed?

BTW, I voted for Reagan, Bush I, Dole, and W.

Do you deny that the Noahide Laws, as interpreted by Schneerson, would ban Christianity? That's really the main issue here.

The fact that the government passed a resolution endorsing the Noahide Laws and Schneerson mainly proves what fools we have for politicians.
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« Reply #32 on: May 12, 2004, 06:45:55 PM »

What on earth does her being "liberal" or "conservative" have a flip to do with opposing bigotry and ill informed statements about laws congress has not in fact passed?


Good question.  I look forward to his answer.
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« Reply #33 on: May 12, 2004, 06:45:59 PM »

OK, that's it, sorry but this thread has gone political.  It's closed.
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