Author Topic: OCA Primate Metropolitan Jonah's Trip to Russia  (Read 1436 times)

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Offline Basil 320

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OCA Primate Metropolitan Jonah's Trip to Russia
« on: February 04, 2011, 05:11:00 PM »
Does anyone know what was the purpose of Metropolitan Jonah's visit several weeks ago to Russia?  It seemed odd to me that there was no explanation for it, other than that it was unofficial, but even during and after, the OCA did not explain why he went, even if it was a personal vacation or retreat, especially because of the current limited financial condition of the OCA and the controversies related to the Russian trips of his predecessors, not that I'm implying that anything of that nature occurred.  Some type of consultation, does anyone think?  Does anyone have information about what may have occurred during this trip, other than his participation in the services that were reported?
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Offline mike

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Re: OCA Primate Metropolitan Jonah's Trip to Russia
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2011, 11:05:19 AM »
Have you seen that?
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Offline Basil 320

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Re: OCA Primate Metropolitan Jonah's Trip to Russia
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2011, 11:52:31 AM »
No,  I hadn't, Michal, thank you.  I wonder what was said.  The lack of detail keeps me intrigued, though.
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: OCA Primate Metropolitan Jonah's Trip to Russia
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2011, 11:56:46 AM »
Have you seen that?

Ah, to have been a fly on the wall at that meeting!

Offline augustin717

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Re: OCA Primate Metropolitan Jonah's Trip to Russia
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2011, 12:01:42 PM »
They are probably getting ready to go back to the Russian church.

Offline Alpo

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Re: OCA Primate Metropolitan Jonah's Trip to Russia
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2011, 12:19:03 PM »
They are probably getting ready to go back to the Russian church.

Why an Earth they would go back ???
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Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: OCA Primate Metropolitan Jonah's Trip to Russia
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2011, 01:56:19 PM »
They are probably getting ready to go back to the Russian church.

Why an Earth they would go back ???

We wouldn't.

His Beatitude is very pro-autocelphy in America. We would go back under Russia long before we went under Constantinople, but the goal is to have an autocelphous Orthodox Church in the Americas, and not answer to any foreign Patriarchate, even Moscow, who we dearly love as our Blessed Mother Church.

We are indebted to Russia, but we are not Russians, and this is something that our current Metropolitan has affirmed time and time again, he himself being a convert from the Anglican Church.
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Offline augustin717

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Re: OCA Primate Metropolitan Jonah's Trip to Russia
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2011, 02:36:28 PM »
I do not think that the Albanians, Bulgarians and the Romanians of the OCA would share your teary-eyed love for Moscow. That's definitely not their mother-Church.
Just sayin' ;)
Based on internet gossip though, it would not surprise me if the OCA's "autocephaly" would be redefined and down-sized so as to fit into the Russian church, perhaps as an autonomous entity.
Anyways, your metropolitan by these "unofficial visits" does not  behave like the head of a truly autocephalous church.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 02:42:03 PM by augustin717 »

Offline mike

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Re: OCA Primate Metropolitan Jonah's Trip to Russia
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2011, 03:01:51 PM »
A few weeks ago Polish Metropolitan Sava had an unofficial visit to Turkey.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: OCA Primate Metropolitan Jonah's Trip to Russia
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2011, 03:42:25 PM »
They are probably getting ready to go back to the Russian church.
You phyletists have been crowing that for at least two decades, and not only hasn't it happened, but both the OCA and the Patriarchate of Moscow have moved further from it.

I know that fans of the "diasporas' want to see that, given that the OCA presents a nasty counterbalance to what the phyletists envision for the Church, ghettos and ethnarchs hiding under bushels, but unless Moscow can come up with a better exit (especially when the EP's face was rubbed into the existence of the OCA, complete with him having to hear Met. Jonah commemorated during  patriarchal DL as an autocephalous primate the day of the opening of the North American Episcopal Assembly), it's not going to happen.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: OCA Primate Metropolitan Jonah's Trip to Russia
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2011, 03:59:42 PM »
I do not think that the Albanians, Bulgarians and the Romanians of the OCA would share your teary-eyed love for Moscow. That's definitely not their mother-Church.
Just sayin' ;)
Can't say how teary eyed the love is for Moscow, but Moscow is most definitely the Mother Church of the Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania, the OCA Cathedral in Boston being its mother Church
Btw, I just came across something on Alaska and the nefarious Tomos of 1908 in the official organ of the Patriarchate of Alexandria in 1908.  Doesn't mention anything about the Inuit, just whines about the "Bishop of Alaska" setting up the "independent Albanian Orthodox Church of America and Canada (the Mother Church of the Autocephalous Orthodox Church of Albania):
http://books.google.gr/books?id=8ZQQAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA5-PA79&dq=%CE%91%CE%BB%CE%AC%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%B1&cd=4#v=onepage&q=%CE%91%CE%BB%CE%AC%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%B1&f=false
the Bulgarians are tear-eyed in general about the Russians (the patriarch's cathedral in Sophia being St. Alexander Nevsky, with a huge dedication to the Russia soliders who died to liberate Bulgaria), who provided their chrism while the Phanar was denouncing them as phyletist heretics. No the mother Church, but definitely the patron.
As for Romania, were it not for the Russian protectorate, the Romanian patriarchate would have had the same problems as Bulgaria getting started.
Just sayin'

Quote
Based on internet gossip though,
well, as long as you have hard information  ::)

Quote
it would not surprise me if the OCA's "autocephaly" would be redefined and down-sized so as to fit into the Russian church, perhaps as an autonomous entity.
As I said, for the reasons above, not going to happen.

Quote
Anyways, your metropolitan by these "unofficial visits" does not  behave like the head of a truly autocephalous church.
A socialist like you standing as master of protocol. Interesting.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 04:00:12 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: OCA Primate Metropolitan Jonah's Trip to Russia
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2011, 04:09:07 PM »
I do not think that the Albanians, Bulgarians and the Romanians of the OCA would share your teary-eyed love for Moscow. That's definitely not their mother-Church.
Just sayin' ;)
Can't say how teary eyed the love is for Moscow, but Moscow is most definitely the Mother Church of the Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania, the OCA Cathedral in Boston being its mother Church
Btw, I just came across something on Alaska and the nefarious Tomos of 1908 in the official organ of the Patriarchate of Alexandria in 1908.  Doesn't mention anything about the Inuit, just whines about the "Bishop of Alaska" setting up the "independent Albanian Orthodox Church of America and Canada (the Mother Church of the Autocephalous Orthodox Church of Albania):
http://books.google.gr/books?id=8ZQQAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA5-PA79&dq=%CE%91%CE%BB%CE%AC%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%B1&cd=4#v=onepage&q=%CE%91%CE%BB%CE%AC%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%B1&f=false
the Bulgarians are tear-eyed in general about the Russians (the patriarch's cathedral in Sophia being St. Alexander Nevsky, with a huge dedication to the Russia soliders who died to liberate Bulgaria), who provided their chrism while the Phanar was denouncing them as phyletist heretics. No the mother Church, but definitely the patron.
As for Romania, were it not for the Russian protectorate, the Romanian patriarchate would have had the same problems as Bulgaria getting started.
Just sayin'

Quote
Based on internet gossip though,
well, as long as you have hard information  ::)

Quote
it would not surprise me if the OCA's "autocephaly" would be redefined and down-sized so as to fit into the Russian church, perhaps as an autonomous entity.
As I said, for the reasons above, not going to happen.

Quote
Anyways, your metropolitan by these "unofficial visits" does not  behave like the head of a truly autocephalous church.
A socialist like you standing as master of protocol. Interesting.

Regardless, I still would have liked to be a fly on that wall.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: OCA Primate Metropolitan Jonah's Trip to Russia
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2011, 04:23:06 PM »
I do not think that the Albanians, Bulgarians and the Romanians of the OCA would share your teary-eyed love for Moscow. That's definitely not their mother-Church.
Just sayin' ;)
Can't say how teary eyed the love is for Moscow, but Moscow is most definitely the Mother Church of the Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania, the OCA Cathedral in Boston being its mother Church
Btw, I just came across something on Alaska and the nefarious Tomos of 1908 in the official organ of the Patriarchate of Alexandria in 1908.  Doesn't mention anything about the Inuit, just whines about the "Bishop of Alaska" setting up the "independent Albanian Orthodox Church of America and Canada (the Mother Church of the Autocephalous Orthodox Church of Albania):
http://books.google.gr/books?id=8ZQQAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA5-PA79&dq=%CE%91%CE%BB%CE%AC%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%B1&cd=4#v=onepage&q=%CE%91%CE%BB%CE%AC%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%B1&f=false
the Bulgarians are tear-eyed in general about the Russians (the patriarch's cathedral in Sophia being St. Alexander Nevsky, with a huge dedication to the Russia soliders who died to liberate Bulgaria), who provided their chrism while the Phanar was denouncing them as phyletist heretics. No the mother Church, but definitely the patron.
As for Romania, were it not for the Russian protectorate, the Romanian patriarchate would have had the same problems as Bulgaria getting started.
Just sayin'

Quote
Based on internet gossip though,
well, as long as you have hard information  ::)

Quote
it would not surprise me if the OCA's "autocephaly" would be redefined and down-sized so as to fit into the Russian church, perhaps as an autonomous entity.
As I said, for the reasons above, not going to happen.

Quote
Anyways, your metropolitan by these "unofficial visits" does not  behave like the head of a truly autocephalous church.
A socialist like you standing as master of protocol. Interesting.

Regardless, I still would have liked to be a fly on that wall.
I know someone who was. I'm debating whether to impose or not.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Benjamin the Red

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Re: OCA Primate Metropolitan Jonah's Trip to Russia
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2011, 04:55:20 PM »
I do not think that the Albanians, Bulgarians and the Romanians of the OCA would share your teary-eyed love for Moscow. That's definitely not their mother-Church.
Just sayin' ;)
Based on internet gossip though, it would not surprise me if the OCA's "autocephaly" would be redefined and down-sized so as to fit into the Russian church, perhaps as an autonomous entity.
Anyways, your metropolitan by these "unofficial visits" does not  behave like the head of a truly autocephalous church.

As has already been stated, the Bulgarian and Albanian Churches came from the Russian church. Romania certainly isn't opposed to them, either. Besides, I was referring to the history. We come out of the Russian Mission to Alaska, commemorate St. Herman at the end of services, and received our tomos from Moscow 40 years ago. They are our Mother Church. While much of our church is Russian in tradition, there are indeed others, and I celebrate that. The Romanian tradition, for example, is beautiful. I'm glad we have a Romanian Archdiocese in the OCA, and I hope they continue to celebrate that heritage. I wouldn't want to force them into Russian practices that were never theirs. Still, that is the beauty of our church...we came out of the Russian Church, but we strive ultimately for the union of all Orthodox in the Americas, whether they are Romanian, Albanian, Greek, Antiochian, etc.

And anyways, "unofficial" visits happen all the time, by Orthodox primates, various heads-of-state...that doesn't mean all of those primates are planning to undermine their church's independence, nor are those heads-of-state selling their nation's secrets. Add to that the fact that Metropolitan Jonah actually spent quite a bit of time in Russia, at Valaam, and so he does have a personal history there.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 04:56:54 PM by Benjamin the Red »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: OCA Primate Metropolitan Jonah's Trip to Russia
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2011, 04:57:57 PM »
I do not think that the Albanians, Bulgarians and the Romanians of the OCA would share your teary-eyed love for Moscow. That's definitely not their mother-Church.
Just sayin' ;)
Based on internet gossip though, it would not surprise me if the OCA's "autocephaly" would be redefined and down-sized so as to fit into the Russian church, perhaps as an autonomous entity.
Anyways, your metropolitan by these "unofficial visits" does not  behave like the head of a truly autocephalous church.

As has already been stated, the Bulgarian and Albanian Churches came from the Russian church. Romania certainly isn't opposed to them, either. Besides, I was referring to the history. We come out of the Russian Mission to Alaska, commemorate St. Herman at the end of services, and received our tomos from Moscow 40 years ago. They are our Mother Church. While much of our church is Russian in tradition, there are indeed others, and I celebrate that. The Romanian tradition, for example, is beautiful. I'm glad we have a Romanian Archdiocese in the OCA, and I hope they continue to celebrate that heritage. I wouldn't want to force them into Russian practices that were never theirs. Still, that is the beauty of our church...we came out of the Russian Church, but we strive ultimately for the union of all Orthodox in the Americas, whether they are Romanian, Albanian, Greek, Antiochian, etc.

And anyways, "unofficial" visits happen all the time, by Orthodox primates, various heads-of-state...that doesn't mean all of those primates are planning to undermine their church's independence, nor are those heads-of-state selling their nation's secrets. Add to that the fact that Metropolitan Jonah actually spent quite a bit of time in Russia, at Valaam, and so he does have a personal history there.
Even before he went to Russia: he was received as a convert at one of the Patriarchal parishes, not the OCA.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: OCA Primate Metropolitan Jonah's Trip to Russia
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2011, 08:10:08 PM »
I do not think that the Albanians, Bulgarians and the Romanians of the OCA would share your teary-eyed love for Moscow. That's definitely not their mother-Church.
Just sayin' ;)
Can't say how teary eyed the love is for Moscow, but Moscow is most definitely the Mother Church of the Orthodox Autocephalous Church of Albania, the OCA Cathedral in Boston being its mother Church
Btw, I just came across something on Alaska and the nefarious Tomos of 1908 in the official organ of the Patriarchate of Alexandria in 1908.  Doesn't mention anything about the Inuit, just whines about the "Bishop of Alaska" setting up the "independent Albanian Orthodox Church of America and Canada (the Mother Church of the Autocephalous Orthodox Church of Albania):
http://books.google.gr/books?id=8ZQQAAAAYAAJ&pg=RA5-PA79&dq=%CE%91%CE%BB%CE%AC%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%B1&cd=4#v=onepage&q=%CE%91%CE%BB%CE%AC%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%B1&f=false
the Bulgarians are tear-eyed in general about the Russians (the patriarch's cathedral in Sophia being St. Alexander Nevsky, with a huge dedication to the Russia soliders who died to liberate Bulgaria), who provided their chrism while the Phanar was denouncing them as phyletist heretics. No the mother Church, but definitely the patron.
As for Romania, were it not for the Russian protectorate, the Romanian patriarchate would have had the same problems as Bulgaria getting started.
Just sayin'

Quote
Based on internet gossip though,
well, as long as you have hard information  ::)

Quote
it would not surprise me if the OCA's "autocephaly" would be redefined and down-sized so as to fit into the Russian church, perhaps as an autonomous entity.
As I said, for the reasons above, not going to happen.

Quote
Anyways, your metropolitan by these "unofficial visits" does not  behave like the head of a truly autocephalous church.
A socialist like you standing as master of protocol. Interesting.

Regardless, I still would have liked to be a fly on that wall.
I know someone who was. I'm debating whether to impose or not.

Hmm did he happen to look like this??


Offline ialmisry

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Re: OCA Primate Metropolitan Jonah's Trip to Russia
« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2011, 11:54:31 AM »
I just saw something posted about the Holy Synod of Russia meeting, which would make sense of why Met. Jonah went unofficially.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth