Author Topic: That is what I call a proper relationship between the laity and the clergy  (Read 7296 times)

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Offline Shlomlokh

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Re: That is what I call a proper relationship between the laity and the clergy
« Reply #90 on: January 26, 2011, 06:29:10 PM »
I love two things here: that there are people trying to "fix the past" as it were (by willful amnesia, that is or by sermonizing history) and pretend that the OC as a whole is, in reality, something  close to the phantasy peddled by Mrs. Frederica and her ilk.
*Shudders* I sure hope no own is trying to push an Orthodoxy of Khouria Frederica. This is only my opinion, but it smacks of a type of "pop" Orthodoxy.

In Christ,
Andrew
I would hate to disappoint you but I am a fan of Kh. Frederica, whose Orthodoxy I am sure of. If by "pop" Orthodoxy you mean some sort of "introductory" course or "Orthodox light," you may be right. But, then not everyone can grow calluses on their knees and foreheads immediately after converting.
No disappointment from me.  ;) I never said I wasn't a fan of her. I don't even know her, but she seems like a nice person. I just don't like the way she projects Orthodoxy. IMHO, she tends to try to make it look hip and cool. To clarify, this is how it comes across to me. But as podkarpatska said "Different Strokes for different folks." :)

In Christ,
Andrew
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Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: That is what I call a proper relationship between the laity and the clergy
« Reply #91 on: January 26, 2011, 11:04:40 PM »
Enough with the pews and organs already.

Once again, your sarcasm detector is broken. Were you home-schooled?

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: That is what I call a proper relationship between the laity and the clergy
« Reply #92 on: January 26, 2011, 11:19:20 PM »
But he is reacting against what my friend Esteban Vazquez might call "militant Americanist Orthodoxy" which seeks to force American cultural notions on traditionally Orthodox peoples, both in the diaspora and abroad.
We have a saying in Britain and Australia:
"Don't try to teach your Grandma how to suck eggs."
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Offline stashko

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Re: That is what I call a proper relationship between the laity and the clergy
« Reply #93 on: January 26, 2011, 11:19:44 PM »
Same thing happens with the serbs as well they rise up...this is due to the way the liturgy was served and for other reasons.........
Video.......http://www.youtube.com/embed/aO-AM0Eb-58

Here......http://www.youtube.com/embed/8rRLaPLh-H4


Here kosovo fight ......http://www.youtube.com/embed/_f2lbLb6DtY
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 11:30:04 PM by stashko »
ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: That is what I call a proper relationship between the laity and the clergy
« Reply #94 on: January 27, 2011, 09:48:50 AM »
Enough with the pews and organs already.

Once again, your sarcasm detector is broken. Were you home-schooled?

Sometimes the difference between sarcasm and snarky is hard to detect. A fine line as they say. In any case, bringing those issues up in the context of the thread led me to fear that some others would go off on a tangent about varied things they do or don't like. FYI, I was public schooled back in the 'olden' times (pre-1970's) when they actually educated people.

Offline Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)

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Re: That is what I call a proper relationship between the laity and the clergy
« Reply #95 on: January 27, 2011, 11:17:54 AM »
Enough with the pews and organs already.

Once again, your sarcasm detector is broken. Were you home-schooled?

Alveus--Are you being deviously sarcastic or do I detect dislike of home schooling? If the former, it was way too devious, but if the latter, I have to tell you that I am perplexed.

Offline Alveus Lacuna

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Re: That is what I call a proper relationship between the laity and the clergy
« Reply #96 on: January 27, 2011, 11:47:06 AM »
I was taking a jab at how socially awkward many home-schooled children are. Since podkarpatska has trouble telling when I'm joking, I thought it would be timely to make another joke, this one about his inability to detect subtleties in human interaction which might have been the result of home-schooling. Yes, it's a generalization made in jest, and it is funny because there is at least a partial ring of truth to it.

Jeez, this place is turning into a real drag.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 11:48:02 AM by Alveus Lacuna »

Offline Shlomlokh

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Re: That is what I call a proper relationship between the laity and the clergy
« Reply #97 on: January 27, 2011, 07:01:25 PM »
I was taking a jab at how socially awkward many home-schooled children are. Since podkarpatska has trouble telling when I'm joking, I thought it would be timely to make another joke, this one about his inability to detect subtleties in human interaction which might have been the result of home-schooling. Yes, it's a generalization made in jest, and it is funny because there is at least a partial ring of truth to it.

Jeez, this place is turning into a real drag.
Yea, verily! I think many of us have our belts on a little too tight.  :P

In Christ,
Andrew
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Offline Fr. George

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Re: That is what I call a proper relationship between the laity and the clergy
« Reply #98 on: January 27, 2011, 07:39:04 PM »
Jeez, this place is turning into a real drag.

You're just not as funny/clever as you thought you are. ;)

I think many of us have our belts on a little too tight.

Maybe; but there are plenty of ways to be funny without being George Carlin.
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Offline orthonorm

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Re: That is what I call a proper relationship between the laity and the clergy
« Reply #99 on: January 27, 2011, 08:48:14 PM »
Jeez, this place is turning into a real drag.

You're just not as funny/clever as you thought you are. ;)

I think many of us have our belts on a little too tight.

Maybe; but there are plenty of ways to be funny without being George Carlin.

Thank God we had George Carlin and no one can be him.
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Offline Jake

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Re: That is what I call a proper relationship between the laity and the clergy
« Reply #100 on: February 06, 2011, 11:59:27 AM »
....augistine717... His criteria do not seem to include the Holy Scriptures, the Seven Ecumenical Councils, writings of the Church Fathers, theologians, etc... He has this "know-nothing" attitude that is somewhat cute in its naivete but ultimately assaults one's intelligence if not one's sensibilities....

You are entitled to your opinion of course.  What amazes me when one visits Romania and sees the iconography is that there are frescoes of say the Ecumenical Councils etc. and the OT prophets or themes from the NT.  Of course the religious life of the Romanian Orthodox was challenged by communism but not to extent as in the old Soviet Union.  My point is that generations of villagers went to those village churches and learned and kept in their hearts the thelogy of the icons and the theology expressed in the liturgy during the church year.  So please don't discount that knowledge of the heart gained by participating with a prayerful heart in the liturgy every Sunday and on Feast days.  Plus, what is learned in the home.

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: That is what I call a proper relationship between the laity and the clergy
« Reply #101 on: February 06, 2011, 12:55:09 PM »
....augistine717... His criteria do not seem to include the Holy Scriptures, the Seven Ecumenical Councils, writings of the Church Fathers, theologians, etc... He has this "know-nothing" attitude that is somewhat cute in its naivete but ultimately assaults one's intelligence if not one's sensibilities....

You are entitled to your opinion of course.  What amazes me when one visits Romania and sees the iconography is that there are frescoes of say the Ecumenical Councils etc. and the OT prophets or themes from the NT.  Of course the religious life of the Romanian Orthodox was challenged by communism but not to extent as in the old Soviet Union.  My point is that generations of villagers went to those village churches and learned and kept in their hearts the thelogy of the icons and the theology expressed in the liturgy during the church year.  So please don't discount that knowledge of the heart gained by participating with a prayerful heart in the liturgy every Sunday and on Feast days.  Plus, what is learned in the home.

Likewise across Slovakia, even after centuries of the Unia, the same holds true. The knowledge of the heart is a powerful and important component to the faith of many.

Offline Iconodule

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Re: That is what I call a proper relationship between the laity and the clergy
« Reply #102 on: February 06, 2011, 06:35:15 PM »
....augistine717... His criteria do not seem to include the Holy Scriptures, the Seven Ecumenical Councils, writings of the Church Fathers, theologians, etc... He has this "know-nothing" attitude that is somewhat cute in its naivete but ultimately assaults one's intelligence if not one's sensibilities....

You are entitled to your opinion of course.  What amazes me when one visits Romania and sees the iconography is that there are frescoes of say the Ecumenical Councils etc. and the OT prophets or themes from the NT.  Of course the religious life of the Romanian Orthodox was challenged by communism but not to extent as in the old Soviet Union.  My point is that generations of villagers went to those village churches and learned and kept in their hearts the thelogy of the icons and the theology expressed in the liturgy during the church year.  So please don't discount that knowledge of the heart gained by participating with a prayerful heart in the liturgy every Sunday and on Feast days.  Plus, what is learned in the home.

I don't think anyone was discounting this knowledge of the heart. The problem is that Augustin sees Orthodoxy as purely an ethnic/ cultural phenomenon and believes that its actual spiritual and theological content are meaningless.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 06:35:39 PM by Iconodule »

Offline CRCulver

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Re: That is what I call a proper relationship between the laity and the clergy
« Reply #103 on: February 06, 2011, 07:02:03 PM »
Is that a clock on the Icon of the Theotokos? A clock? Not only a clock in an Orthodox Church but on top of the Theotokos' Sacred Icon?

Clock icons are pretty widespread in Romania. Sometimes they have two pictures on them that alternate depending on what angle you look at the icon from.

It's only here you hear all that bull%$## about "ask your Spiritual Father" every so often.

There I must disagree with you. One of the things that initially made me feel like an outsider in the Romanian Orthodox Church is that I did not have the habit of going to the nearest monastery to confer with a respected elder about pretty much every problem I had in life. I had just arrived, and I didn't know anyone. "How could you not have a spiritual father?!" people asked in horror. I've also found this dependence on reverend monks in various parts of Russia.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 07:13:04 PM by CRCulver »

Offline augustin717

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Re: That is what I call a proper relationship between the laity and the clergy
« Reply #104 on: February 06, 2011, 09:16:46 PM »
Quote
There I must disagree with you. One of the things that initially made me feel like an outsider in the Romanian Orthodox Church is that I did not have the habit of going to the nearest monastery to confer with a respected elder about pretty much every problem I had in life. I had just arrived, and I didn't know anyone. "How could you not have a spiritual father?!" people asked in horror. I've also found this dependence on reverend monks in various parts of Russia.
This phenomenon, where it exists is new and a bookish import, more often than not. It is the ASCOR type of thing. Hardly representative for the peasantry. That's why I avoided the ASCOR types when I was in college. People like grandparents etc went to monateries for days like Dormition etc, but they never talked about "spiritual fathers" ("parinti duhovnicesti"),much less ask them "about every problem". And if they had problems they were things that I am sure, many would classify as superstitious, such as "dezlegarea cununiiilor" (ad litteram "loosening of the crowning", meant to break a spell put on someone unable to find someone to marry) or various other spells ("farmece/vraji/boscoane").  
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 09:28:14 PM by augustin717 »

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: That is what I call a proper relationship between the laity and the clergy
« Reply #105 on: February 06, 2011, 09:29:34 PM »
It's only here you hear all that bull%$## about "ask your Spiritual Father" every so often.

There I must disagree with you. One of the things that initially made me feel like an outsider in the Romanian Orthodox Church is that I did not have the habit of going to the nearest monastery to confer with a respected elder about pretty much every problem I had in life. I had just arrived, and I didn't know anyone. "How could you not have a spiritual father?!" people asked in horror. I've also found this dependence on reverend monks in various parts of Russia.

Interestingly, St. Ignatius Brianchaninov spoke about how there were few spiritual fathers left, and that people in his time had to rely on books and whatnot to get guidance from. Books!? How western of him!  :P I wonder if anyone thinks that there are more spiritual fathers in 21st century America than there were in 19th century Russia... ?   Though there are alternative ways of thinking about this, of course...

Offline augustin717

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Re: That is what I call a proper relationship between the laity and the clergy
« Reply #106 on: February 06, 2011, 09:34:50 PM »
I myself once confessed to a monk, being still in  high-school and man, did I get a penance! :o

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: That is what I call a proper relationship between the laity and the clergy
« Reply #107 on: February 06, 2011, 09:37:06 PM »

Interestingly, St. Ignatius Brianchaninov spoke about how there were few spiritual fathers left, and that people in his time had to rely on books and whatnot to get guidance from. Books!? How western of him!  :P I wonder if anyone thinks that there are more spiritual fathers in 21st century America than there were in 19th century Russia... ?   Though there are alternative ways of thinking about this, of course...

I am not sure I follow your point as I would be reluctant to romanticize 19th century religious life in Russia. I think that Metropolitan Hilarion's recent essay on Athiesm in modern Russia touches upon that tendency. http://en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org/6_8

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« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 04:53:47 AM by Michał Kalina »

Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: That is what I call a proper relationship between the laity and the clergy
« Reply #108 on: February 06, 2011, 09:41:42 PM »
My point is part of a larger idea that I have about how people shouldn't be so quick to say blindly "ask your priest" (ie. without having any idea what their priest is like). I have met some Orthodox priests (ok, just one) that I wouldn't trust to watch a pet goldfish, let alone trust with important decisions in my life (and perhaps involving my afterlife). I also wanted to remind people that it's ok to not have a spiritual father, it's not the end of the world. If you trust your priest, that's great. I know a great Orthodox priest that I have often gone to for advice. Let's not assume that everyone has access to someone like that though. And if they don't, it's not the end of the world.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 09:42:15 PM by Asteriktos »

Offline Iconodule

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Re: That is what I call a proper relationship between the laity and the clergy
« Reply #109 on: February 06, 2011, 09:44:03 PM »

Quote

Interestingly, St. Ignatius Brianchaninov spoke about how there were few spiritual fathers left, and that people in his time had to rely on books and whatnot to get guidance from. Books!? How western of him!  :P I wonder if anyone thinks that there are more spiritual fathers in 21st century America than there were in 19th century Russia... ?   Though there are alternative ways of thinking about this, of course...

I am not sure I follow your point as I would be reluctant to romanticize 19th century religious life in Russia. I think that Metropolitan Hilarion's recent essay on Athiesm in modern Russia touches upon that tendency. http://en.hilarion.orthodoxia.org/6_8

Which of Metropolitan Hilarion's criticisms had anything to do with reading books, in the absence of spiritual guides?

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: That is what I call a proper relationship between the laity and the clergy
« Reply #110 on: February 07, 2011, 03:49:21 AM »
My point is part of a larger idea that I have about how people shouldn't be so quick to say blindly "ask your priest" (ie. without having any idea what their priest is like). I have met some Orthodox priests (ok, just one) that I wouldn't trust to watch a pet goldfish, let alone trust with important decisions in my life (and perhaps involving my afterlife). I also wanted to remind people that it's ok to not have a spiritual father, it's not the end of the world. If you trust your priest, that's great. I know a great Orthodox priest that I have often gone to for advice. Let's not assume that everyone has access to someone like that though. And if they don't, it's not the end of the world.
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