OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 28, 2014, 10:29:16 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: McDowell, Strobel, et al.  (Read 4067 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 30,623


« on: October 26, 2009, 09:42:13 PM »

In Protestantism we find certain books about the evidence for historical Christianity or the Gospels (or other subjects), such as Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell or The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel. Are there any similar books by Orthodox or Catholics, or is this a purely Protestant phenomenon? I've read Eusebius and others in the ancient Church, but what McDowell, Strobel, et al. are doing seems to be something different.
Logged

"Read not to contradict and confute; nor to believe and take for granted; nor to find talk and discourse; but to weigh and consider." - Francis Bacon
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 7,005


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2009, 10:06:42 PM »

 We ain't got time for writin' and evangelizin', we're too busy with important stuff.  You know, stuff like Jurisdictional feuds; Beards, pews and headcoverings; Which is the correct tone/plagal mode for this or that particular service; what language should the DL be in America; and THE most important part of being an Orthodox Christian... the Greek Festival!!!!  Opa y'all! 
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
Alveus Lacuna
Moderated
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Posts: 6,968



« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2009, 10:22:04 PM »

I agree, settling the dispute over pews is way more important.
Logged
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 7,005


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2009, 10:26:39 PM »

I forgot one other super duper important thing for us Orthodox; Pascha!  No, not the meaning of Pascha but what day to celebrate it.  That's the stuff of the Orthodox life.
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
Shlomlokh
主哀れめよ!
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Bulgarian
Posts: 1,303



« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2009, 10:33:35 PM »

In Protestantism we find certain books about the evidence for historical Christianity or the Gospels (or other subjects), such as Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell or The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel. Are there any similar books by Orthodox or Catholics, or is this a purely Protestant phenomenon? I've read Eusebius and others in the ancient Church, but what McDowell, Strobel, et al. are doing seems to be something different.

I'm not sure if that answers your question, but St. John of Damascus did much of these things and he was there 1300 years before these guys were born! Smiley Also we have had many Church historians, like Eusebius as you mentioned. The Venerable Bede wrote about the history of the English Church.

Could Thomas Aquinas be considered an example for Catholics?

In Christ,
Andrew
Logged

"I will pour out my prayer unto the Lord, and to Him will I proclaim my grief; for with evils my soul is filled, and my life unto hades hath drawn nigh, and like Jonah I will pray: From corruption raise me up, O God." -Ode VI, Irmos of the Supplicatory Canon to the Theotokos
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 30,623


« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2009, 10:39:34 PM »

The first three responses reminds me of the title of a thread I made a while back on this forum: "Go Forth, And Make Gyros For All Nations" Tongue

Andrew,

Based on my admittedly limited reading of him, I think St. Thomas Aquinas is probably as close as any traditional writer gets to what I'm thinking of, good point. I'm not sure about St. John of Damascus or not, I've read his Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, but that doesn't strike me as being the same as what people like McDowell are doing.
Logged

"Read not to contradict and confute; nor to believe and take for granted; nor to find talk and discourse; but to weigh and consider." - Francis Bacon
ignatius
Baptacathadox
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Roman Catholic > Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA - Diocese of the South
Posts: 1,690


My Son Aidan... :-)


« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2009, 11:56:48 PM »

In Protestantism we find certain books about the evidence for historical Christianity or the Gospels (or other subjects), such as Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell or The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel. Are there any similar books by Orthodox or Catholics, or is this a purely Protestant phenomenon? I've read Eusebius and others in the ancient Church, but what McDowell, Strobel, et al. are doing seems to be something different.

Grace and Peace,

To speak frankly I see a real 'void' in apologetic in Orthodoxy except between them and Roman Catholicism which assumes a great deal. This apologetic was born in Christianity with St. Justin the Martyr, Origen, and others. This was largely a response to Pagan Criticisms. Later, we see this happen again with St. Thomas Aquinas and his engagement with Islamic and Jewish Scholars. Protestantism is largely a product of the Enlightenment and Christianity moved further into the realm of intellectual proofs and disproofs. I know from my own experience of Roman Catholic Piety that there is a prompting for belief. The fact that we ask for belief teaches the very idea of disbelief. I don't see this kind of thing in Orthodox Prayers which I think is a good thing. We believe in God, or we wouldn't be praying in the first place why ask for acceptance? I feel such piety attempted to teach but they served to sow doubt and questioning. We now see great amounts of doubt that need to be surmounted for youth to come to an encounter with God that such intellectual gymnastics are necessary. I lament that greatly.
Logged

St Basil the Great (330-379 A.D.): “I think then that the one goal of all who are really and truly serving the Lord ought to be to bring back to union the churches who have at different times and in diverse manners divided from one another.”
Doubting Thomas
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 874

Anglican (but not Episcopagan)


« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2009, 04:29:09 PM »

I see much that would be useful for any traditional orthodox Christian (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, or Protestant) in works by men like Strobel and Norman Geisler as far as having a rational phisolosophical apologetic for theism and a sound historical apologetic for Christ's unique claims and His resurrection.  However, I do think if they were consistent in their historical approach, carrying it all the way through to answer the questions regarding the early Church and early Christian beliefs, they'd have to reconsider their evangelical protestantism. (At least that was true in my case  Cool )
Logged

"My Lord and My God!"--Doubting Thomas, AD 33
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,440


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2009, 04:36:31 PM »

I see much that would be useful for any traditional orthodox Christian (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, or Protestant) in works by men like Strobel and Norman Geisler as far as having a rational phisolosophical apologetic for theism and a sound historical apologetic for Christ's unique claims and His resurrection.  However, I do think if they were consistent in their historical approach, carrying it all the way through to answer the questions regarding the early Church and early Christian beliefs, they'd have to reconsider their evangelical protestantism. (At least that was true in my case  Cool )
Agreed. I like strobel and Geisler even more so but goodness gracious, geisler uses all of Thomas' proofs and philosophy but still doesn't question his own protestantism.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Ortho_cat
Protokentarchos
*********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: AOCA-DWMA
Posts: 5,392



« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2009, 10:53:31 AM »

The first three responses reminds me of the title of a thread I made a while back on this forum: "Go Forth, And Make Gyros For All Nations" Tongue

rofl!  Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy

BTW, I read the "Case For" series by Strobel. These books got me interested in the faith again.
« Last Edit: October 28, 2009, 10:55:21 AM by Ortho_cat » Logged
Doubting Thomas
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 874

Anglican (but not Episcopagan)


« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2009, 12:23:02 PM »

I see much that would be useful for any traditional orthodox Christian (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, or Protestant) in works by men like Strobel and Norman Geisler as far as having a rational phisolosophical apologetic for theism and a sound historical apologetic for Christ's unique claims and His resurrection.  However, I do think if they were consistent in their historical approach, carrying it all the way through to answer the questions regarding the early Church and early Christian beliefs, they'd have to reconsider their evangelical protestantism. (At least that was true in my case  Cool )
Agreed. I like strobel and Geisler even more so but goodness gracious, geisler uses all of Thomas' proofs and philosophy but still doesn't question his own protestantism.

Ha, Ha....very good point.   Cheesy
Logged

"My Lord and My God!"--Doubting Thomas, AD 33
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2009, 12:01:48 PM »

In Protestantism we find certain books about the evidence for historical Christianity or the Gospels (or other subjects), such as Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell or The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel. Are there any similar books by Orthodox or Catholics, or is this a purely Protestant phenomenon? I've read Eusebius and others in the ancient Church, but what McDowell, Strobel, et al. are doing seems to be something different.

Grace and Peace,

To speak frankly I see a real 'void' in apologetic in Orthodoxy except between them and Roman Catholicism which assumes a great deal. This apologetic was born in Christianity with St. Justin the Martyr, Origen, and others. This was largely a response to Pagan Criticisms. Later, we see this happen again with St. Thomas Aquinas and his engagement with Islamic and Jewish Scholars. Protestantism is largely a product of the Enlightenment and Christianity moved further into the realm of intellectual proofs and disproofs. I know from my own experience of Roman Catholic Piety that there is a prompting for belief. The fact that we ask for belief teaches the very idea of disbelief. I don't see this kind of thing in Orthodox Prayers which I think is a good thing. We believe in God, or we wouldn't be praying in the first place why ask for acceptance? I feel such piety attempted to teach but they served to sow doubt and questioning. We now see great amounts of doubt that need to be surmounted for youth to come to an encounter with God that such intellectual gymnastics are necessary. I lament that greatly.

Protestantism is a product of the Renaissance, not the Enlightenment. Yes, the Enlightenment was a huge influence on certain forms of protestantism, but that came much later.







ICXC NIKA
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2009, 12:04:58 PM »

I see much that would be useful for any traditional orthodox Christian (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, or Protestant) in works by men like Strobel and Norman Geisler as far as having a rational phisolosophical apologetic for theism and a sound historical apologetic for Christ's unique claims and His resurrection.  However, I do think if they were consistent in their historical approach, carrying it all the way through to answer the questions regarding the early Church and early Christian beliefs, they'd have to reconsider their evangelical protestantism. (At least that was true in my case  Cool )
Agreed. I like strobel and Geisler even more so but goodness gracious, geisler uses all of Thomas' proofs and philosophy but still doesn't question his own protestantism.

I like them too. I actually had a pretty decent conversation with Geisler once some years ago when he visited Pittsburgh. He is a very smart and knowledable man, and nice as well.








ICXC NIKA
Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2009, 12:48:39 PM »

In Protestantism we find certain books about the evidence for historical Christianity or the Gospels (or other subjects), such as Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell or The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel. Are there any similar books by Orthodox or Catholics, or is this a purely Protestant phenomenon? I've read Eusebius and others in the ancient Church, but what McDowell, Strobel, et al. are doing seems to be something different.

My personal favorites are:


From Protestantism:

1.) Greg Bahnsen (Who died in 1995 or 1994, I forgot which year.  A protestant friend of mine has his hand written notes)

Part 6 (Introduction to Worldviews)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1jnu2Ax_NA

Part 7 (Introduction to Worldviews)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K3Hr0bxo3Q&feature=related



2.) Ravi Zacharias

The Existence of God part_1 of 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id2Ik4whVr8

Part 2 of 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeF62v3b3BM&feature=related


3.) A youtube guy I have been watching for some time......I forgot his name, but he did a good job in debunking the Zeitgeist movie.

Jesus and Zeitgeist
http://www.youtube.com/user/labarum312


4.) C. S. Lewis





From Roman Catholicism:

1.) Scott Hahn

http://www.tangle.com/view_video?viewkey=4d85527a1b30f0aeccaa (Answering the New Atheism)


2.) My friend Phatcat

http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/

3.) G. K. Chesterton



From Orthodox:

1.) Perry

http://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/


2.)  The Coptic Fr. Zakaria, in mostly dealing with Islam

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-738330123931202375&hl=en


3.) Fr. Daniel Byantoro, also, mostly dealing with Islam

Part 1
http://www.mosestheblack.org/files/2008%20Convention%20Audio/Fr_Daniel_Byantoro_1.MP3

Part 2
http://www.mosestheblack.org/files/2008%20Convention%20Audio/Fr.-Daniel-Byantoro_2.MP3


4.) Anthony Alai, mostly dealing with Islam

Part 1
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/podup/illuminedheart/my_conversion_from_islam_to_orthodox_christianity_-_part_1

Part 2
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/podup/illuminedheart/my_conversion_from_islam_to_orthodox_christianity_-_part_2


I'm sure there are more, and I know there will be more Orthodox Christians getting into Apologetics. It is only a matter of time. So it's not a matter of "if". It's a matter of "when"? Eventually you will see someone debate the likes of Robert Morey, James White, Barker(atheist).......etc. So it's a matter of "when".













ICXC NIKA
« Last Edit: October 31, 2009, 01:03:12 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 30,623


« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2009, 12:56:34 PM »

jnorm888,

Thank you for all the links to the vids/blogs/etc. Smiley I will certainly return some time this weekend when I have enough time and energy to look at them.
Logged

"Read not to contradict and confute; nor to believe and take for granted; nor to find talk and discourse; but to weigh and consider." - Francis Bacon
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,440


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2009, 02:18:39 AM »

I see much that would be useful for any traditional orthodox Christian (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, or Protestant) in works by men like Strobel and Norman Geisler as far as having a rational phisolosophical apologetic for theism and a sound historical apologetic for Christ's unique claims and His resurrection.  However, I do think if they were consistent in their historical approach, carrying it all the way through to answer the questions regarding the early Church and early Christian beliefs, they'd have to reconsider their evangelical protestantism. (At least that was true in my case  Cool )
Agreed. I like strobel and Geisler even more so but goodness gracious, geisler uses all of Thomas' proofs and philosophy but still doesn't question his own protestantism.
I'm sure he is. But I have to question his honesty on some matters. He wrote a book on the differeneces between Catholic and Protestants. In this work he discusses the diffrences between the Catholic and Protestant views of justification. He never once discusses James 2:24.  Shocked

I like them too. I actually had a pretty decent conversation with Geisler once some years ago when he visited Pittsburgh. He is a very smart and knowledable man, and nice as well.








ICXC NIKA
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
GabrieltheCelt
Hillbilly Extraordinaire
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 7,005


Chasin' down a Hoodoo...


« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2009, 02:26:41 AM »


Mr. Ravi is just a brilliant man.  My cousin gave me a cassette tape some 9 years ago with Mr. Ravi speaking about Christianity and I was just captivated (this was about the time I was leaving Islam but still wasn't ready for Christianity.  Mr. Ravi (and my cousin) planted some seeds back then.  Thanks for listing him.  Smiley
Logged

"The Scots-Irish; Brewed in Scotland, bottled in Ireland, uncorked in America."  ~Scots-Irish saying
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2009, 03:38:42 PM »

In Protestantism we find certain books about the evidence for historical Christianity or the Gospels (or other subjects), such as Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell or The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel. Are there any similar books by Orthodox or Catholics, or is this a purely Protestant phenomenon? I've read Eusebius and others in the ancient Church, but what McDowell, Strobel, et al. are doing seems to be something different.

I just recently found out about an Orthodox Christian by the name of David Bentley Hart.

I want to buy his book "Atheist Delusions: The Christian Revolution and Its Fashionable Enemies"

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0300111908/ref=cm_rdp_product

But I'm gonna wait till after Christmass.


A blog about him:
http://davidbhart.blogspot.com/









ICXC NIKA
« Last Edit: November 21, 2009, 03:40:26 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 30,623


« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2011, 08:24:07 AM »

In Protestantism we find certain books about the evidence for historical Christianity or the Gospels (or other subjects), such as Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell or The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel. Are there any similar books by Orthodox or Catholics, or is this a purely Protestant phenomenon? I've read Eusebius and others in the ancient Church, but what McDowell, Strobel, et al. are doing seems to be something different.

I just recently found out about an Orthodox Christian by the name of David Bentley Hart.

I want to buy his book "Atheist Delusions: The Christian Revolution and Its Fashionable Enemies"

Did you ever get this book? And if so, what did you think?
Logged

"Read not to contradict and confute; nor to believe and take for granted; nor to find talk and discourse; but to weigh and consider." - Francis Bacon
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Warned
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,183



« Reply #19 on: February 04, 2011, 09:06:10 AM »

I've seen a couple of defenses written by Russians in face of the Bolshevik takeover, but I don't recall names right now.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2011, 05:25:36 PM »

In Protestantism we find certain books about the evidence for historical Christianity or the Gospels (or other subjects), such as Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell or The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel. Are there any similar books by Orthodox or Catholics, or is this a purely Protestant phenomenon? I've read Eusebius and others in the ancient Church, but what McDowell, Strobel, et al. are doing seems to be something different.

I just recently found out about an Orthodox Christian by the name of David Bentley Hart.

I want to buy his book "Atheist Delusions: The Christian Revolution and Its Fashionable Enemies"

Did you ever get this book? And if so, what did you think?


No, thanks for reminding me. I got another book instead. The twilight of Atheism by Alister Mcgrath. I also have another book by him called "the dawkins delusion".....that one was ok, but not really what I was expecting. I like the twilight one alot. I still gotta get Hart's book! Maybe next month I'll get it...... for I still gotta get my car inspected and that's gonna eat up everything.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 05:29:33 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
NorthernPines
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 934



« Reply #21 on: February 07, 2011, 05:42:52 PM »

In Protestantism we find certain books about the evidence for historical Christianity or the Gospels (or other subjects), such as Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell or The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel. Are there any similar books by Orthodox or Catholics, or is this a purely Protestant phenomenon? I've read Eusebius and others in the ancient Church, but what McDowell, Strobel, et al. are doing seems to be something different.

I just recently found out about an Orthodox Christian by the name of David Bentley Hart.

I want to buy his book "Atheist Delusions: The Christian Revolution and Its Fashionable Enemies"

Did you ever get this book? And if so, what did you think?


I think it's one of those "Christians/the Church never did a thing wrong, EVER" type books. Granted I have only read an excerpt from it, (a small one at that, but I found he turned history completely on it's head just to say to Dawkins "take that!" ) At least that was the impression I got from it, but it's hard to tell from just a brief excerpt.  I don't think these "new apologists" do anything at all to help people understand Christian history as it really is. I know someone who read the book and just loved it though.

I actually really, really like McGrath, and find him to be one of the most well rounded and brilliant guys writing in contrast to the New Atheists right now. He can also have a real dialogue with Dawkins and even Hitchens, you don't get the impression they want to have a brawl afterwards. Cheesy There was another guy I really like . . . darn, I can't remember his name. He's an Irish Mathematician (or is he Scottish??? I think Irish) and his debates with Richard Dawkins were quite good. I don't know if he's done much writing though.

I don't care for the D'Souza style "without Christianity we'd all be sacrificing our children every weekend" style deal, and that's what I took out of the excerpt from Atheist Delusions. Again I should read it but my reading list is so backed up now, I'd rather spend my time on McGrath. Cheesy



Logged
NorthernPines
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 934



« Reply #22 on: February 07, 2011, 05:46:45 PM »

The Irish guy's name is John Lennox. (I just HAD to do a quick google search)

His website is here:

http://johnlennox.org/

I'm only familiar with his debates with Dawkins, so am not familiar with any of his other work. But I did find he debates and dialogues with Dawkins excellent. Even Dawkins said he could "almost" buy some of Lennox's arguments, but of course almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades as the old saying goes. Smiley

Logged
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2011, 05:54:47 PM »

In Protestantism we find certain books about the evidence for historical Christianity or the Gospels (or other subjects), such as Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell or The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel. Are there any similar books by Orthodox or Catholics, or is this a purely Protestant phenomenon? I've read Eusebius and others in the ancient Church, but what McDowell, Strobel, et al. are doing seems to be something different.

I just recently found out about an Orthodox Christian by the name of David Bentley Hart.

I want to buy his book "Atheist Delusions: The Christian Revolution and Its Fashionable Enemies"

Did you ever get this book? And if so, what did you think?


I think it's one of those "Christians/the Church never did a thing wrong, EVER" type books. Granted I have only read an excerpt from it, (a small one at that, but I found he turned history completely on it's head just to say to Dawkins "take that!" ) At least that was the impression I got from it, but it's hard to tell from just a brief excerpt.  I don't think these "new apologists" do anything at all to help people understand Christian history as it really is. I know someone who read the book and just loved it though.

I actually really, really like McGrath, and find him to be one of the most well rounded and brilliant guys writing in contrast to the New Atheists right now. He can also have a real dialogue with Dawkins and even Hitchens, you don't get the impression they want to have a brawl afterwards. Cheesy There was another guy I really like . . . darn, I can't remember his name. He's an Irish Mathematician (or is he Scottish??? I think Irish) and his debates with Richard Dawkins were quite good. I don't know if he's done much writing though.

I don't care for the D'Souza style "without Christianity we'd all be sacrificing our children every weekend" style deal, and that's what I took out of the excerpt from Atheist Delusions. Again I should read it but my reading list is so backed up now, I'd rather spend my time on McGrath. Cheesy

After watching this:
http://vimeo.com/11287536 (The violence of Christian history)

I don't think he went that rout in his book. However, I still have to read it for my self just to make sure. I disagree somewhat with the video for it wasn't really comprehensive. It leaned to much on one side. I mean yeah, we did do bad stuff, but we did good stuff too! If one looks at the first three hundred years then you would see mostly a different picture and so it's more complex than "we did everything bad" or "we did everything good".

Our history is actually a mixture of both. And to be honest, I don't understand why the Crusades were all that bad. I mean, it's understandable why the West came to help the Eastern Empire. Yes, there were alot of bad things done in that war, but to paint the whole thing as bad is wrong in my view. I see it as a mixture of both.


But yeah, I too like Mcgrath. I've been a fan for years! Now I just gotta read David Hart.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 05:56:52 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #24 on: February 07, 2011, 06:01:09 PM »

The Irish guy's name is John Lennox. (I just HAD to do a quick google search)

His website is here:

http://johnlennox.org/

I'm only familiar with his debates with Dawkins, so am not familiar with any of his other work. But I did find he debates and dialogues with Dawkins excellent. Even Dawkins said he could "almost" buy some of Lennox's arguments, but of course almost only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades as the old saying goes. Smiley

Their debate:
http://blip.tv/file/get/Apologetics-ConversationBetweenRichardDawkinsAndJohnLennox395.mp3 (Conversation between Richard Dawkins and John Lennox)


Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
Sleeper
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,268

On hiatus for the foreseeable future.


« Reply #25 on: February 07, 2011, 09:52:23 PM »

Bentley Hart's Atheist Delusions is one of the most profound and important books I've read in a long time, at risk of sounding dramatic Smiley

It's quite simply the most devastating blow to the New Atheists out there and it's a brilliantly executed book. I can't recommend it enough!
Logged
Shiny
Site Supporter
Moderated
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #26 on: February 07, 2011, 09:56:36 PM »

Bentley Hart's Atheist Delusions is one of the most profound and important books I've read in a long time, at risk of sounding dramatic Smiley

It's quite simply the most devastating blow to the New Atheists out there and it's a brilliantly executed book. I can't recommend it enough!

And he's also an Orthodox Christian. I really need to pick up that book, you suggested some other fantastic books tha I need to get around to. (Thanks again btw)

I think you posted a quote from his book that was excellent.
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
That person
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catechumen
Jurisdiction: Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 1,158


Long live Commie Superman


« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2011, 10:34:56 PM »

In Protestantism we find certain books about the evidence for historical Christianity or the Gospels (or other subjects), such as Evidence That Demands A Verdict by Josh McDowell or The Case For Christ by Lee Strobel. Are there any similar books by Orthodox or Catholics, or is this a purely Protestant phenomenon? I've read Eusebius and others in the ancient Church, but what McDowell, Strobel, et al. are doing seems to be something different.

My personal favorites are:


From Protestantism:

1.) Greg Bahnsen (Who died in 1995 or 1994, I forgot which year.  A protestant friend of mine has his hand written notes)

Part 6 (Introduction to Worldviews)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1jnu2Ax_NA

Part 7 (Introduction to Worldviews)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1K3Hr0bxo3Q&feature=related



2.) Ravi Zacharias

The Existence of God part_1 of 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Id2Ik4whVr8

Part 2 of 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YeF62v3b3BM&feature=related


3.) A youtube guy I have been watching for some time......I forgot his name, but he did a good job in debunking the Zeitgeist movie.

Jesus and Zeitgeist
http://www.youtube.com/user/labarum312


4.) C. S. Lewis





From Roman Catholicism:

1.) Scott Hahn

http://www.tangle.com/view_video?viewkey=4d85527a1b30f0aeccaa (Answering the New Atheism)


2.) My friend Phatcat

http://phatcatholic.blogspot.com/

3.) G. K. Chesterton



From Orthodox:

1.) Perry

http://energeticprocession.wordpress.com/


2.)  The Coptic Fr. Zakaria, in mostly dealing with Islam

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-738330123931202375&hl=en


3.) Fr. Daniel Byantoro, also, mostly dealing with Islam

Part 1
http://www.mosestheblack.org/files/2008%20Convention%20Audio/Fr_Daniel_Byantoro_1.MP3

Part 2
http://www.mosestheblack.org/files/2008%20Convention%20Audio/Fr.-Daniel-Byantoro_2.MP3


4.) Anthony Alai, mostly dealing with Islam

Part 1
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/podup/illuminedheart/my_conversion_from_islam_to_orthodox_christianity_-_part_1

Part 2
http://ancientfaith.com/podcasts/podup/illuminedheart/my_conversion_from_islam_to_orthodox_christianity_-_part_2


I'm sure there are more, and I know there will be more Orthodox Christians getting into Apologetics. It is only a matter of time. So it's not a matter of "if". It's a matter of "when"? Eventually you will see someone debate the likes of Robert Morey, James White, Barker(atheist).......etc. So it's a matter of "when".













ICXC NIKA
Richard Swinburne is Orthodox and he's debated atheists on numerous occasions. His apologetic books are rather pricey but very worthwhile.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2011, 10:35:36 PM by That person » Logged

"Some have such command of their bowels, that they can break wind continuously at pleasure, so as to produce the effect of singing."- St. Augustine of Hippo

Movie reviews you can trust.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,440


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #28 on: February 08, 2011, 12:45:40 PM »

Bentley Hart's Atheist Delusions is one of the most profound and important books I've read in a long time, at risk of sounding dramatic Smiley

It's quite simply the most devastating blow to the New Atheists out there and it's a brilliantly executed book. I can't recommend it enough!

I would say the same about the The Last Superstition: A Refutation of the New Atheism, by Edward Feser. Smiley
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 12:47:39 PM by Papist » Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #29 on: February 08, 2011, 12:57:21 PM »

Bentley Hart's Atheist Delusions is one of the most profound and important books I've read in a long time, at risk of sounding dramatic Smiley

It's quite simply the most devastating blow to the New Atheists out there and it's a brilliantly executed book. I can't recommend it enough!

I would say the same about the The Last Superstition: A Refutation of the New Atheism, by Edward Feser. Smiley

You know. I have a 1920's Roman Catholic book against Atheism. It's laying around somewhere. When I find it I'll post it on here. The English in that book was very high. I had to get a dictionary just to read that thing. But yeah, I'll post it .....eventually. I gotta find it first.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 12:59:17 PM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
theo philosopher
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Self-Ruled Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America
Posts: 315



« Reply #30 on: February 08, 2011, 09:00:06 PM »

The first three responses reminds me of the title of a thread I made a while back on this forum: "Go Forth, And Make Gyros For All Nations" Tongue

Andrew,

Based on my admittedly limited reading of him, I think St. Thomas Aquinas is probably as close as any traditional writer gets to what I'm thinking of, good point. I'm not sure about St. John of Damascus or not, I've read his Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith, but that doesn't strike me as being the same as what people like McDowell are doing.

St. John of Damascus > anything you've read

Get his "Fountain of Knowledge" (through CUA Press) and read his book on philosophy and logic, then re-read "An Exact Exposition." Once you get where he's coming from philosophically, you'll see that his arguments are rock solid.

As someone who is a Protestant, let me say that I have noticed an absence of current Orthodox writers on these big issues; but that's not a slam against Orthodoxy at all. It could be that being secluded in the West has kept me from such authors.

Regardless, I am partial to Swinburne and Engelhardt, or Kreeft and Beckwith (on the Roman side), but still, I don't see any popular level "apologetics" coming from the Orthodox camp.

But in all fairness, I've gotten more out of the Church Fathers, specifically Sts. Cyril of Alexandria, Basil the Great, John of Damascus, John Chrysostom, Gregory of Nazianzus, and Gregory of Nyssa. So it's a trade-off.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 09:01:55 PM by theo philosopher » Logged

“Wherefore, then, death approaches, gulps down the bait of the body, and is pierced by the hook of the divinity. Then, having tasted of the sinless and life-giving body, it is destroyed and gives up all those whom it had swallowed down of old." - St. John of Damascus
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Online Online

Posts: 30,623


« Reply #31 on: February 08, 2011, 09:40:18 PM »

To paraphrase St. Thomas Aquinas, everything I have read is straw. police
Logged

"Read not to contradict and confute; nor to believe and take for granted; nor to find talk and discourse; but to weigh and consider." - Francis Bacon
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,440


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #32 on: February 08, 2011, 09:50:24 PM »

To paraphrase St. Thomas Aquinas, everything I have read is straw. police
LOL! I love it! Cheesy
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Tags:
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.145 seconds with 61 queries.