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Author Topic: Jesus said he would return in his disciples lifetime  (Read 6794 times) Average Rating: 0
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aladdin
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« on: February 05, 2011, 01:51:44 AM »

If you read these verses in their context they really seem to be saying that Jesus will return in his disciples lifetime. Perhaps in other verses he is referring to the coming kingdom of God as in the Church. Or as the coming of the kingdom as in a divine retribution on the Temple. But the context here is the actual return of Jesus. Like seriously if you read the entire chapters you will see what I mean. Please explain this from the Orthodox perspective...

Quote
Matt 16:28  There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

Matt 10:23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matt 24:34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Mark 13:30 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Luke 21:32 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Thanks...

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« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2011, 04:47:42 AM »

Welcome to the forums!

Matt. 16:28 is a reference to both those who would experience the Transfiguration (Ch. 17) as well as those who would later experience the presence of God's kingdom.

According to St. John Chrysostom, Matt 10:23 references not the second coming, rather Christ telling his apostles that he would meet up with them before they had completely proclaimed the truth to all the towns of Israel.

Matt. 24:34, Mark 13:30, and Luke 21:32 all make reference to not a literal generation (at least as the word is commonly used) but a new spiritual and historical generation. The establishment of the Church delivers a new era to mankind (the age of the Church). In addition to this, baptism brings about a rebirth (John 3:5-8) and thus in this sense, the baptized could be considered of a new and everlasting generation.


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« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2011, 01:46:25 PM »

Thanks!

About the "this generation" passages: the word generation is never used to span a 2,000 year period. That is not a generation...

please give your perspectives

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aladdin
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« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2011, 02:29:38 PM »

Whoa! I just did some research.

The word is translated as "generation" in every English language Bible. But actually Strongs Concordance says this of the Greek word "genea" and its derivative:

Quote
1074. genea ghen-eh-ah' from (a presumed derivative of) 1085; a generation; by implication, an age (the period or the persons):--age, generation, nation, time.

1085. genos ghen'-os from 1096; "kin" (abstract or concrete, literal or figurative, individual or collective):--born, country(-man), diversity, generation, kind(-red), nation, offspring, stock.

And apparently genea is translated as "nation" and "people" in other part of the Bible. Once again the Protestant scholars only make things more difficult for their followers...
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« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2011, 02:46:31 PM »

If you read these verses in their context they really seem to be saying that Jesus will return in his disciples lifetime. Perhaps in other verses he is referring to the coming kingdom of God as in the Church. Or as the coming of the kingdom as in a divine retribution on the Temple. But the context here is the actual return of Jesus. Like seriously if you read the entire chapters you will see what I mean. Please explain this from the Orthodox perspective...

Quote
Matt 16:28  There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

Matt 10:23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matt 24:34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Mark 13:30 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Luke 21:32 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Thanks...


In my lifetime I have argued with 2 protestant full-preterists and so I kinda understand where you are coming from. And so I would say:

How do the church fathers, christian witnesses and church councils understand the issue of the 2nd Advent?



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« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2011, 02:49:17 PM »

It is not easy to understand what Jesus meant when He used the word generation or race or nation in that context. This generation of what? Generation/nation of believers? Of disbelievers? Of the chosen ones? Of His enemies?

We must also check if Jesus used the same word at any other time and try to get the context of His similar usages of the same word.

I tell you the truth, this generation will be held responsible for all these things! (Matthew 23:36)

To what then should I compare the people of this generation, and what are they like? (Luke 7:31)

But first he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation. (Luke 17:25)

As the crowds were increasing, Jesus began to say, This generation is a wicked generation; it looks for a sign, but no sign will be given to it except the sign of Jonah. (Luke 11:29)

Are these references related to Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:34? How?

Another question: Should Jesus' statement in Matthew 24:34 be taken literally or figuratively? Did He want to express the veracity of His teaching about the end of times with a hyperbole? Did He mean that His predictions would come true even if the fulfillment had to prevent that generation from passing away? 
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« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2011, 03:17:08 PM »

I guess I am content now to interpret genea as an "age" or "era" or something like that. I mean like in astrology for example an age can last a couple thousand years. Thats just an example of word usage.

But anyways what about Matt 16:28:

Quote
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Granted it does go directly into the Transfiguration narrative. But did the Son of Man come/arrive in the Transfiguration? I dont think so because he is already there. There has only been one coming so far which was his birth. Verse 28 seems to be connected to the preceding sentence: "the Son of Man is going to come".



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Theophilos78
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« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2011, 03:57:38 PM »


But anyways what about Matt 16:28:

Quote
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Granted it does go directly into the Transfiguration narrative. But did the Son of Man come/arrive in the Transfiguration? I dont think so because he is already there. There has only been one coming so far which was his birth. Verse 28 seems to be connected to the preceding sentence: "the Son of Man is going to come".

I see no problem there. The "Son of Man" is a term and title related to the apocalypse, and first appears in the apocalyptic literature. The Son of Man's coming in His glory pertains to His manifestation as described in the books of Prophet Daniel, Hezekiel...

St. Stephen also saw the coming of the Son of Man in the sense of His revealing Himself and His glory:

When they heard these things, they became furious and ground their teeth at him. But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked intently toward heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look!” he said. “I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!” (Acts 7:54-56)
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« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2011, 04:10:17 PM »


But anyways what about Matt 16:28:

Quote
27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.
28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

Granted it does go directly into the Transfiguration narrative. But did the Son of Man come/arrive in the Transfiguration? I dont think so because he is already there. There has only been one coming so far which was his birth. Verse 28 seems to be connected to the preceding sentence: "the Son of Man is going to come".

I see no problem there. The "Son of Man" is a term and title related to the apocalypse, and first appears in the apocalyptic literature. The Son of Man's coming in His glory pertains to His manifestation as described in the books of Prophet Daniel, Hezekiel...

St. Stephen also saw the coming of the Son of Man in the sense of His revealing Himself and His glory:

When they heard these things, they became furious and ground their teeth at him. But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked intently toward heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look!” he said. “I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!” (Acts 7:54-56)


oh true i can give that the benefit of the doubt
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aladdin
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« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2011, 04:22:05 PM »

I would like to know why this thread got moved to the orthodox-protestant forum. there is nothing specifically about protestantism here. and i am not a protestant.
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« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2011, 05:29:23 PM »

When it comes to mathew 16, I am sure Christ is talking about his transfirutation which immediately succeeds that specific verse you quoted.
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« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2011, 12:24:24 AM »

If you read these verses in their context they really seem to be saying that Jesus will return in his disciples lifetime. Perhaps in other verses he is referring to the coming kingdom of God as in the Church. Or as the coming of the kingdom as in a divine retribution on the Temple. But the context here is the actual return of Jesus. Like seriously if you read the entire chapters you will see what I mean. Please explain this from the Orthodox perspective...

Quote
Matt 16:28  There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.

Matt 10:23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Matt 24:34 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Mark 13:30 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Luke 21:32 I tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Thanks...


In my lifetime I have argued with 2 protestant full-preterists and so I kinda understand where you are coming from. And so I would say:

How do the church fathers, christian witnesses and church councils understand the issue of the 2nd Advent?





Full preterists are heretics. And those are great questions that will make them squirm.

For partial preterists like myself, we would say that Jesus was predicting the end of the temple of Jerusalem in those verses that the original poster listed above.
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« Reply #12 on: June 09, 2011, 03:16:05 PM »

The Skepticism about Mark 13:30:

C.S. Lewis wrote: "Their Master had told them so. He shared, and indeed created, their delusion. He said in so many words, 'This generation shall not pass till all these things be done.' And He was wrong... This is certainly the most embarrassing verse in the Bible." (The Essential C.S. Lewis, p. 385)"

Three Tries:
(1) "This generation" means the future generation of the end times, not the apostles' generation.
UNLIKELY: Jesus throughout the prophecy refers to "You"

(2) Generation here means race, like the human or Semitic race.
UNLIKELY: The word used here is "geneos". All or nearly all times when geneos is used in the New Testament it is consistent with a generation of eg. 20-120 years. The word race is "genea", a different word.
« Last Edit: June 09, 2011, 03:16:17 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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« Reply #13 on: June 09, 2011, 03:18:47 PM »

A Possible Translation Explanation for Mark 13:30

("this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done")

Can "shall not pass" mean in Greek "shall not start to pass"?

I read this was one explanation, but don't know Greek. The comment was that the term "shall not pass" here has a special "ingressive aorist" form that makes it mean "start to pass".
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« Reply #14 on: June 09, 2011, 03:44:35 PM »

On the Cross all was perfected. Thus the words of Christ: It has been fulfilled, perfected, finished, drawn to an end.

In this act, death was trampled down by death. Certainly, some of those standing did not taste death because of the death of Christ.

Interestingly, it is only at the moment in Mark that a human confesses Christ as the Son of God.

The "coming of the kingdom of God" is a complex issue in the scriptures, when we parse out it in terms of our understanding temporality.
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« Reply #15 on: June 09, 2011, 03:45:28 PM »

The Best Explanation so far for me:

"These Things" in Mark 13:30 just refers to the Destruction of the Temple.

In Mark 13:2, Jesus says: "Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down."

Then the disciples ask in Mark 13:4: "Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled?"

Jesus then answers by saying "you" collectively will see "tribulations", like the destruction of the Temple and the appearance of false prophets. And in particular, the "sign" appears to be "when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet".

Then in Mark 13:24-26, Jesus describes another period after "these things" happen:
"But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened... And then shall they see the Son of man coming"
So in Mark 26 when Jesus speaks of the Second Coming, he is no longer talking about "you", "this generation" witnessing it, but others, "they" witnessing it.

Then in Mark 13:29-30, he goes back to talking about "these things" that "you," this generation will see:
29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done [or "come to pass"].


So it makes some sense that "these things" refer to the tribulations and other things "you", the generation, will see.

Plus, in verse 29, the phrase "these things come to pass" must not mean everything fully come to pass, since then wouldn't make sense that something was still "nigh". I read that in Mark 13:30 the terms "come to pass" or "be done" are in an ingressive aorist form that means start to happen. This different translation would match the context in verse 29 of "these things" coming to pass yet "it" still being "nigh".


What do you think?
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« Reply #16 on: June 09, 2011, 03:49:28 PM »

are in an ingressive aorist form that means start to happen.

And continue to do so . . .

If only folks understood this grammatical structure of many of the "important" passages in the NT.
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« Reply #17 on: June 09, 2011, 05:07:02 PM »



Granted it does go directly into the Transfiguration narrative. But did the Son of Man come/arrive in the Transfiguration? I dont think so because he is already there. There has only been one coming so far which was his birth. Verse 28 seems to be connected to the preceding sentence: "the Son of Man is going to come".





Here he is called the Son of man instead of the Son of god. To me it seems that it's a stepping up to glorification. A restoration of the son of man "Adam" to his rightful glory.
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« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2012, 11:15:00 PM »

Dear orthonorm,

Thanks for your response.

I am not sure that

On the Cross all was perfected. Thus the words of Christ: It has been fulfilled, perfected, finished, drawn to an end.
It seems like many things still have not been perfected, as many things are still sinful and imperfect in the world.

So when Christ said It has been fulfilled, perfected, finished, drawn to an end, it seems to me that he is talking about his mission and work, rather than necessarily saying that everything had been perfected at that moment.

It makes sense that "In this act, death was trampled down by death."
According to Christianity, Christ's death trampled down death in the sense that His death created a situation where death wasn't able to hold them and they resurrect.

I am doubtful about your words that "Certainly, some of those standing did not taste death because of the death of Christ."
As far as I know, everyone in Christ's generation in the first century died. In particular, tradition says that close to all the apostles died as martyrs.

In Mark 13, I am doubtful that Jesus said some of those standing would not taste death until the Second Coming, rather than that they wouldn't taste death until the things come to pass/start to pass. And further, as I mentioned, Jesus could mean "start to come to pass," in which case His words mean that they wouldn't die before those things start to occur, not necessarily that they wouldn't die before all those things happen. Or, in another interpretation I mentioned, by those things He may have just meant the things the apostles were asking about in the conversation, namely, the Temple's destruction. In that case, He would've meant that they wouldn't die before the Temple's Destruction, not that they wouldn't die before the final apocalypse.

Now perhaps by "did not taste death" you mean something about spiritual death or hell, in which case you would be right, but I am doubtful Jesus was referring to hell or spiritual death, because Jesus said they wouldn't taste death "until" all the things pass/start to pass. If he was talking about avoiding hell, then he wouldn't have limited the time in which they wouldn't have tasted death to just the time until the apocalypse. After all, limiting the time to until the apocalypse deprives the promise of special meaning, as hell occurs after the final judgment, which is after the Second Coming prophesied here.

You are right that it is interesting that only at the moment in Mark when Jesus dies does a human confess Christ as the Son of God.
Apparently, it was Christ's death here that made the first strong open showing to mankind of His sonship to God.
However, I am not sure how you mean that it relates to the apocalyptic things, like war, described in Mark 13, because those things appear to occur after the Crucifixion.

I agree with you when you say:
Quote
The "coming of the kingdom of God" is a complex issue in the scriptures, when we parse out it in terms of our understanding temporality.

When Mark 1 says:
14. Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
 15. And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.


It sounds to me when I read Mark that Jesus is saying the kingdom of God is close by, as the word "at hand" means. So hearing this, my expectation would be that it may be within a few years of Jesus' words.

And yet in Luke 21:31, Jesus says the Kingdom of God will be near when apocalyptic things will happen:
31. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.

And hearing Luke 21:31, my expectation would be that the Kingdom of God would be many years in the future from when Jesus was speaking.

Considering the contradictory nature of my expectations here, I agree that the Kingdom's coming is complex when we measure its timing.

I agree with you when you write:
are in an ingressive aorist form that means start to happen.
And continue to do so . . .

If only folks understood this grammatical structure of many of the "important" passages in the NT.
Your addition "And continue to do so . . ." matches what I remember reading about the grammar of the words "will come to pass" under discussion in Mark 13.

But actually I don't really understand this aorist starting-continuing grammar concept myself, because I don't think we have it in English, and nor does it exist in Russian or Spanish- I think, with which I am familiar.

By your words "If only folks understood this grammatical structure of many of the "important" passages in the NT" you express a longing for people to understand the grammar structure of such passages, and that it would be better if they did. And I agree.

I think when you put "important" in quotations you emphasize that people say they are important, meaning they might not actually be as important as people say. In my opinion, this passage is important because it gives an idea of timing for prophecied events. But this timing may not be as important as other passages like the ones recording the crucifixion and resurrection themselves, which are central parts of Christianity.

Rather, this verse in Mark 13 is being emphasized as important because its apocalyptic prediction appears to be incorrect, thus placing in doubt Christianity. However, once the grammar of the passage is understood, then perhaps the prediction loses its incorrectness, as I discussed in a post earlier above about the aorist grammar.

Understanding the grammar of such confusing or apparently incorrect passages would be better because it gives us a much better idea of whether those passages are incorrect or not. For example, if the aorist tense shows that the events are supposed to start- but not necessarily end- while some people in Jesus' time are still alive, then one can say that the fact the people died before the Second Coming doesn't show the passage to be incorrect. Likewise, if the aorist tense isn't used or doesn't show this, then one must move on to considering other possible explanations for the verse, in order to discover whether it is correct or incorrect.

May You experience the Kingdom!
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 11:15:22 PM by rakovsky » Logged
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