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Author Topic: Hypothetically speaking, if the bones of Jesus were found...  (Read 3349 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: February 09, 2011, 03:25:35 PM »

A hypothetical question can still be blasphemous.

Then, I would think that CS Lewis and Saint Paul were both being blasphemers. For example, Saint Paul in the earliest NT book written, 1 Corinthians 15 said:

"12 Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. 14  And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. 15  Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. 16 For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. 17 And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! 18 Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable."

As for Cs Lewis, I believe he said that the Gospel (especially the resurrection) was either totally true or totally ridiculous. So, the answer to the question is for me "no." But, what in the world would possess anyone to ask such a question? It is truly no more than a parlor game but, given the subject matter, it should not be. Or am I making too much of this?

Not quite parallel to the OP question.
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« Reply #46 on: February 09, 2011, 04:24:17 PM »

If they hypothetically found the hypothetical bones of Christ, I would still believe and hope in the Resurrected Christ.
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« Reply #47 on: February 09, 2011, 04:45:40 PM »

This reminds me about a joke I once heard.

An archaeologist discovers the bones of Jesus and, in horror, phones up a liberal theologian friend. "You'll never guess what, we just found Jesus's bones." There follows a long, stunned silence, and then his theologian friend retorts: "what, you mean he actually existed."
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« Reply #48 on: February 09, 2011, 11:04:50 PM »

This reminds me about a joke I once heard.

An archaeologist discovers the bones of Jesus and, in horror, phones up a liberal theologian friend. "You'll never guess what, we just found Jesus's bones." There follows a long, stunned silence, and then his theologian friend retorts: "what, you mean he actually existed."


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« Reply #49 on: April 29, 2012, 11:49:36 AM »

Hello,

I am an inquirer into the Orthodox faith and am speaking from my own Latin rite background.  To me the question posed in the OP speaks to science, the New and Improved religion of our times and not to FAITH.

If I am a true believer in the FAITH then nothing that man can "discover" can really change that.  Jesus said that we should come to him as children.  I think the Orthodox faith echos that in its call to live the faith in the heart and not the "intellect".  Most of our shared faith is a MYSTERY.  That's why we call it a faith.

Because of the nature of God, we can never understand. We understand VERY little of God, of the trinity, of grace, of our own souls.  These are NOT things of science, but of FAITH.  Just because a man decides that HE has found out the truth of these mysteries means nothing to me. Science is NOT the end all last word on everything.  Look at how many times science has had to change to fit new observations.  Look at the silliness of "quantum" theory where man tries to explain why his theories don't work by introducing "randomness" that cannot be predicted into everything.  Clearly science is NOT always right.  Frankly, speaking as one trained in Biochemistry and archaeology, finding bones that could be "proved" to belong to Jesus is factually impossible scientifically. I know it was a rhetorical question, but some common sense grounding is needed.

If science "proved" that Jesus was not God, and I were to loose my faith based on that intellectual arrogance, then I never believed in the first place.  I do in my own modest way affirm that I DO BELIEVE , so that "scientific revelation" would not change my belief system at all. That is my take on the question.

As I have often profferred to those atheist trolls found on the Catholic board (where I have been ushered away from), if you believe MY faith is delusional then it is my delusion, and I am happy with it.  Why do you try so hard to disprove my delusion, if it isn't the case that you are just afraid in the back of your mind that I may just be right!.

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Don`t they have a tomb of Jesus there in Shingo Village Japan ? Cheesy
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« Reply #50 on: April 29, 2012, 12:50:08 PM »

There are lots of 'theories' out there. All tied to some sect. None with widespread support.
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« Reply #51 on: April 29, 2012, 12:53:17 PM »

If the bones were found i would believe it to be a hoax, or at least leave enough room for reasonable doubt that they were his.
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« Reply #52 on: April 29, 2012, 12:53:53 PM »

This reminds me about a joke I once heard.

An archaeologist discovers the bones of Jesus and, in horror, phones up a liberal theologian friend. "You'll never guess what, we just found Jesus's bones." There follows a long, stunned silence, and then his theologian friend retorts: "what, you mean he actually existed."

rofl.
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« Reply #53 on: April 29, 2012, 01:13:46 PM »

Probably go on worshipping just as before. Just because we discovered His bones does not mean that He still did not rise from the dead and that He still did not work miracles and that we have thousands of Saints who have worked miracles and attest it to Him. I would however though feel that our entire Christology would be shattered considering that I would find it strange and heretical that only His soul resurrected and not His body, because we have been taught that soul and body will be resurrected and that Jesus redeemed the physical world. Other than that, I'd stay Orthodox.

It may also be fair to mention that if something like this were to actually happen, I would be very skeptical about it and chances are there would at least be enough room for reasonable doubt. I mean, really, how are we going to identify the bones of a man who lived 2,000 years ago without even any DNA to go from? Remember, He never had any children, his half-brothers or cousins were from His father's side whom He really had no genetic relationship.The only way a theory like this would even have a hint of potential validity would be if they could prove that the bones are somehow genetically related to the Theotokos. But even then, how would we have her DNA and just because their DNA is related, is it enough to confirm that the bones are of Jesus? What if it was just one of her distant cousins or siblings or something? Chances are if a theory like this ever did come forward, it would be based off of some heresy or conspiracy theory that is unsupported by evidence, therefore the whole argument would come falling down.
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« Reply #54 on: April 29, 2012, 03:56:05 PM »

Probably go on worshipping just as before. Just because we discovered His bones does not mean that He still did not rise from the dead and that He still did not work miracles and that we have thousands of Saints who have worked miracles and attest it to Him. I would however though feel that our entire Christology would be shattered considering that I would find it strange and heretical that only His soul resurrected and not His body, because we have been taught that soul and body will be resurrected and that Jesus redeemed the physical world. Other than that, I'd stay Orthodox.

It may also be fair to mention that if something like this were to actually happen, I would be very skeptical about it and chances are there would at least be enough room for reasonable doubt. I mean, really, how are we going to identify the bones of a man who lived 2,000 years ago without even any DNA to go from? Remember, He never had any children, his half-brothers or cousins were from His father's side whom He really had no genetic relationship.The only way a theory like this would even have a hint of potential validity would be if they could prove that the bones are somehow genetically related to the Theotokos. But even then, how would we have her DNA and just because their DNA is related, is it enough to confirm that the bones are of Jesus? What if it was just one of her distant cousins or siblings or something? Chances are if a theory like this ever did come forward, it would be based off of some heresy or conspiracy theory that is unsupported by evidence, therefore the whole argument would come falling down.

Paul is quite clear, if Christ did not rise from the dead, all preaching is in vain.  There is no legitimate justification for being a Christian if you do not believe Christ rose physically from the dead.
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« Reply #55 on: April 29, 2012, 04:42:54 PM »

Probably go on worshipping just as before. Just because we discovered His bones does not mean that He still did not rise from the dead and that He still did not work miracles and that we have thousands of Saints who have worked miracles and attest it to Him. I would however though feel that our entire Christology would be shattered considering that I would find it strange and heretical that only His soul resurrected and not His body, because we have been taught that soul and body will be resurrected and that Jesus redeemed the physical world. Other than that, I'd stay Orthodox.

It may also be fair to mention that if something like this were to actually happen, I would be very skeptical about it and chances are there would at least be enough room for reasonable doubt. I mean, really, how are we going to identify the bones of a man who lived 2,000 years ago without even any DNA to go from? Remember, He never had any children, his half-brothers or cousins were from His father's side whom He really had no genetic relationship.The only way a theory like this would even have a hint of potential validity would be if they could prove that the bones are somehow genetically related to the Theotokos. But even then, how would we have her DNA and just because their DNA is related, is it enough to confirm that the bones are of Jesus? What if it was just one of her distant cousins or siblings or something? Chances are if a theory like this ever did come forward, it would be based off of some heresy or conspiracy theory that is unsupported by evidence, therefore the whole argument would come falling down.
The Theotokos was bodily assumed into heaven, as well, I believe.

If God can create something form nothing, then is there an absolute necessity that the resurrected body of Jesus was composed of the exact same atoms (and molecules, and bone, and tissue) as the pre-resurrected body of Jesus?
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« Reply #56 on: April 29, 2012, 05:26:02 PM »

Okay, the proof I would need is this.

The sky would have to crack open, and God come down and say "This is Jesus's bones and he was not my son and fake".   Also I would want it to be in front of at least 10 of my family members that I love and trust to see the same thing to make sure I was not in a delusion, or mass delusion.

Then I would not be a Christian anymore.

I would NEVER trust men and their guesses this far after the fact, and as much bologna that floats about.
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« Reply #57 on: April 30, 2012, 04:31:13 AM »

If it could be shown beyond reasonable doubt and all responces to it are flawed I think anyone would be perfectly justified in abandoning Christianity. That being said I have absolutely no confidence in such an idea that we will ever find such a thing.
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« Reply #58 on: April 30, 2012, 10:24:10 AM »

The Ahmadiyya (a heretical Muslim sect that believes in prophets after Muhammad) believe that Jesus escaped the cross to live to an old age and experience natural death in India, and that there he is buried. It is about on that level (the fanciful beliefs of the heretics of heretics) that all such claims about "the bones of Jesus" would rest. Who would confirm them, and how? Would they have "Property of Jesus Christ™, d. c.AD 33" stamped on them or something? And if that, what then? Remember a few years ago when some shyster claimed to have found the ossuary of James, the brother of Jesus, complete with identifying markings, and that turned out to be a forgery? How much more money and attention would Jesus' supposed bones bring? There would be absolutely no reason to believe such a thing were legitimate, and plenty of reasons not to. I do not trust the world's most accomplished antiquities dealers and testers. For me, it is not about what God can create out of nothing, but rather what unscrupulous humans have a tendency to create out of nothing.
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« Reply #59 on: May 01, 2012, 08:15:25 PM »

This reminds me about a joke I once heard.

An archaeologist discovers the bones of Jesus and, in horror, phones up a liberal theologian friend. "You'll never guess what, we just found Jesus's bones." There follows a long, stunned silence, and then his theologian friend retorts: "what, you mean he actually existed."
How did I miss this amazing post?

BTW sorry for this awful thread.
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« Reply #60 on: May 03, 2012, 04:10:27 PM »

This reminds me about a joke I once heard.

An archaeologist discovers the bones of Jesus and, in horror, phones up a liberal theologian friend. "You'll never guess what, we just found Jesus's bones." There follows a long, stunned silence, and then his theologian friend retorts: "what, you mean he actually existed."
How did I miss this amazing post?

BTW sorry for this awful thread.

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Truly He is Risen!
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« Reply #61 on: January 30, 2013, 12:59:48 PM »

Hello,
....
Regards,
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Don`t they have a tomb of Jesus there in Shingo Village Japan ? Cheesy

"On the flat top of a steep hill in a distant corner of northern Japan lies the tomb of an itinerant shepherd who, two millennia ago, settled down there to grow garlic. He fell in love with a farmer’s daughter named Miyuko, fathered three kids and died at the ripe old age of 106. In the mountain hamlet of Shingo, he’s remembered by the name Daitenku Taro Jurai. The rest of the world knows him as Jesus Christ.
....
A bucolic backwater with only one Christian resident (Toshiko Sato, who was 77 when I visited last spring) and no church within 30 miles, Shingo nevertheless bills itself as Kirisuto no Sato (Christ’s Hometown).
....
Junichiro Sawaguchi, the eldest member of the Shingo family regarded as Christ’s direct descendants, celebrates the holiday much like the average Japanese citizen, in a secular way involving decorations and Kentucky Fried Chicken. A City Hall bureaucrat, he has never been to a church nor read the Bible. “I’m Buddhist,” he says.
....
But does Sawaguchi think it’s possible that Jesus was his kinsfolk? Momentarily silent, he shrugs and spreads his palms outward, as if to say, Don’t take everything you hear as gospel.
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« Reply #62 on: January 30, 2013, 01:10:01 PM »

Looks like the bones of this thread have been found......
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« Reply #63 on: January 30, 2013, 01:10:54 PM »

Hypothetically speaking (not that I speak hypothetical well as I do not believe in using them because they will never happen, hence the term hypothetical) how would they prove the the bones were the bones of Jesus?
That's what I mean by hypothetically speaking, just let's say if it was possible. What would you do?

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You're not getting it. If it was proven factually without a shadow of a doubt, what would you do? Still be a Christian?



...and if "man" thought that they proved, without a doubt, that the bones they found, belonged to Jesus...

I would laugh at them, because once again, the devil pulled one over on humanity.

Don't believe everything you see or hear.

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« Reply #64 on: January 30, 2013, 03:03:17 PM »

Paul is quite clear, if Christ did not rise from the dead, all preaching is in vain.  There is no legitimate justification for being a Christian if you do not believe Christ rose physically from the dead.

You could go down the heretical Gnostic route, I'm sure your Anglican friends wouldn't mind too much.

Either way, this thread is somewhat faulty. Achronos asked if it was proved 100% beyond reasonable doubt that the bones were found. That hasn't happened yet and I don't know if it could even be proved 100% beyond any doubt when I see no way to identify his bones short of having a big, ancient neon-lighted sign pointing to his skeleton erected by the disciples saying "these are the bones of Jesus". And even then, you could argue forgery by a heretical sect or something. Essentially, you can't really give a good question to an illogical, hypothetical question that's somewhat of an impossibility, because normal modes of thinking and logic won't apply properly in the same way to such a situation. It's like those moral dilemmas that the philosophers love to ask, "Would you allow ten people to die or personally kill one person?" etc. Normal ethical codes aren't going to apply to an already unethical situation. In the same way, normal modes of thinking and logic won't apply to an abnormal, illogical situation.
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« Reply #65 on: January 30, 2013, 04:04:29 PM »

How do we even prove that a set of bones is the bones of Jesus?  Do we have his DNA somewhere to compare?  Is it enough that the grave is marked with a name?  At this point in time, if you are a believer or skeptic, I don't think there is a way to prove this one way or another.
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« Reply #66 on: January 30, 2013, 04:21:12 PM »


....but, there is!

You would never be able to convince me that those would be the bones of Jesus.  Never.  No matter how sophisticated your proof was.

Faith is not based on proof, or lack of proof. 
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« Reply #67 on: January 30, 2013, 04:28:36 PM »


....but, there is!

You would never be able to convince me that those would be the bones of Jesus.  Never.  No matter how sophisticated your proof was.

Faith is not based on proof, or lack of proof. 

I don't disagree with what you said, but it is not what I am talkng about.
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« Reply #68 on: January 30, 2013, 04:29:44 PM »

Yes, I would stop being Christian if Christianity were proved completely wrong.
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« Reply #69 on: January 30, 2013, 04:41:08 PM »

If it were proven completely wrong I would still stay Orthodox because I believe that the message of Orthodoxy is the greatest thing conceivable, and thus the only religion worth wasting away my life on--even if there is a good chance it is false.
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« Reply #70 on: January 30, 2013, 05:01:02 PM »

If we managed to find his bones, and we could somehow prove those were Jesus' bones. Would you stop being a Christian?

Yes, I would stop being a Christian, just as I would stop being a Christian if historical scholarship could ever demonstrate, to a high probability, that Jesus never existed.  The Christian Faith is not grounded on myth or fairy tales (as much as I love both myth and fairy tales). 

One can, of course, take the approach that the resurrection is an infallible dogma that can only be received in faith.  In fact, I believe this to be the case; but this does not mean that evidence does not matter, either at the beginning, when one is struggling with the question "Is it true?" or later one, when one is struggling with the same question.  Faith simply cannot dismiss the question of evidence.  Matters are not that simple.   
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« Reply #71 on: January 30, 2013, 05:24:43 PM »

If the bones of Jesus were found they would be probably be placed in a sarcophagus for a historical museum.
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