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Author Topic: Can you repent/be saved AFTER death?  (Read 6351 times) Average Rating: 0
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WUnland
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« on: February 06, 2011, 09:59:24 PM »

Hello,

It has been suggested on another thread that a soul my repent or reach the goal of Theosis AFTER death. This seems to be solely based on the tradition of praying for the dead.

As an inquirer with little grasp of true Orthodoxy I humbly ask if this is a widely held belief? Coming from the Latin tradition, we believe that free will only acts during our mortal lives and that with death we loose the ability to affect our state of grace.

I ask because it seems odd to me that Jesus and the Apostles would teach that we should live like Christ here on earth, if it were within God's plan that we can repent for a totally hedonistic, atheistic, and selfish life AFTER death.

Speaking from a totally selfish HUMAN point of view, what would be the point of living a chaste life and of seeking grace through the manner of our life if it doesn't really mean much.  If I can live a dissolute life, whore around on the wife, steal from the poor, etc. and then when confronted with the light of God after death realize that it was all really true and THEN repent and be saved, then the whole living like Christ idea seems rather mute doesn't it? Our human nature, our fallen nature, does not cause us to be "good" for goodness sake, to borrow a phrase.  Without a theology to suggest to us that it is the "right" and "advantageous" path, how many would choose to follow it?

Why would monastics, a great tradition in Orthodoxy deny themselves if this is true? I know that it can be argued that we each choose our path to God, BUT after we die and are confronted with the reality would anyone choose NOT to repent.  It seems to this uninitiated mind contradictory to Christian ideals.

Please correct me.

Regards,
William Unland
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« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2011, 10:15:19 PM »

Hello,

It has been suggested on another thread that a soul my repent or reach the goal of Theosis AFTER death. This seems to be solely based on the tradition of praying for the dead.

As an inquirer with little grasp of true Orthodoxy I humbly ask if this is a widely held belief? Coming from the Latin tradition, we believe that free will only acts during our mortal lives and that with death we loose the ability to affect our state of grace.

I ask because it seems odd to me that Jesus and the Apostles would teach that we should live like Christ here on earth, if it were within God's plan that we can repent for a totally hedonistic, atheistic, and selfish life AFTER death.

Speaking from a totally selfish HUMAN point of view, what would be the point of living a chaste life and of seeking grace through the manner of our life if it doesn't really mean much.  If I can live a dissolute life, whore around on the wife, steal from the poor, etc. and then when confronted with the light of God after death realize that it was all really true and THEN repent and be saved, then the whole living like Christ idea seems rather mute doesn't it? Our human nature, our fallen nature, does not cause us to be "good" for goodness sake, to borrow a phrase.  Without a theology to suggest to us that it is the "right" and "advantageous" path, how many would choose to follow it?

Why would monastics, a great tradition in Orthodoxy deny themselves if this is true? I know that it can be argued that we each choose our path to God, BUT after we die and are confronted with the reality would anyone choose NOT to repent.  It seems to this uninitiated mind contradictory to Christian ideals.

Please correct me.

Regards,
William Unland


I don't know if it's a widely held belief. After all, it's just speculation as God has not revealed to us exactly what happens after our physical deaths.

That being said, I don't see why God wouldn't forgive our sins after our deaths. In my mind it just doesn't fit that and all loving, all good God would be willing to forgive my sins today, but tomorrow condemn me to unspeakable pain and torment forever. The question in my mind is are we capable of turning to God after our deaths. Perhaps we become so hardened to God's love that we are incapable of accepting it.

I don't know the answer but in my mind it matters little. If you love God you are going to strive to have communion with him now, in this life. The rest just follows naturally.
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« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2011, 10:22:30 PM »

At the bottom of the page you will see a Tag "forgiveness after death."  Click on that and it will take you to previous threads on this question.
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« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2011, 10:24:27 PM »

I hope people can be saved after death, but obviously I don't know for sure either way. As for this life, I try to do that which I think I should do, and part of it comes naturally due to having a relationship with God (as I talked a bit about in this thread). I suppose the better and more healthy the relationship, the more naturally you want to do that which is right and good and loving. Now, admittedly, many take a very different view of things, and see death as the last chance, and really do fear God's judgment, which is indeed called a "dread Judgment".
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« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2011, 10:29:43 PM »

what would be the point of living a chaste life and of seeking grace through the manner of our life if it doesn't really mean much.  If I can live a dissolute life, whore around on the wife, steal from the poor, etc. and then when confronted with the light of God after death realize that it was all really true and THEN repent and be saved, then the whole living like Christ idea seems rather mute doesn't it? Our human nature, our fallen nature, does not cause us to be "good" for goodness sake, to borrow a phrase.  Without a theology to suggest to us that it is the "right" and "advantageous" path, how many would choose to follow it?
Well, I'm too new to orthodoxy to speak about the main question you posed, but if I may I might try to answer part of it.  

Speaking from first hand experience, When I lived my life as a viking marauder, I lived my life at odds with God. This put me at odds with everything in Gods world. This made my life an extremly difficult place to live. Every relationship I had was a hostile one. Not just with God, but friends, family, work, even myself.  When I got tired of that, I eventually began trying to live my life and work in harmony with Gods will.(I believe this is called "symbiosis" in Orthodoxy, someone please correct me if I'm wrong)

When I do that, my life in a much easier place to live. The cops no longer look for me. My wife has no need to kill me in my sleep. Just being able to leave the dishonesty behind is alone worth it. It was just too much work. No trust. No respect.


Orthodoxy is about much more than just the "end game" of heaven. Living life as God would have me may be like swimming up stream, but the viking marauder life eventually became an attempt to turn the whole stream around.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 10:31:27 PM by Red A. » Logged
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« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2011, 10:34:13 PM »

At the bottom of the page you will see a Tag "forgiveness after death."  Click on that and it will take you to previous threads on this question.

Thank You
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« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2011, 11:14:27 PM »

[Speaking from first hand experience, When I lived my life as a viking marauder, I lived my life at odds with God.

Hello,

I appreciate your "tongue in cheek' analysis, but I must mention that having been a cop police for a long time I have met more than my share of "viking marauders" in my life.  Some do indeed "choose" that way of life, perhaps more than those of us who spend our time on religious themed boards may wish to acknowledge. The disadvantages to the lifestyle you mention are totally lost on them.

I hope that we both succeed in our journey to God, BUT it has been my experience that most, given a chance, will not pursue the Divine. Fear of punishment , either now in life or after death is a great motivator.  I proffer that fear is not necessarily a bad thing.  It would be nice if we all had the propensity towards good, but I can't believe that is our reality based on my own life experiences.  Of course the ideal, as presented by the Church is just that, an ideal, something to try to achieve, but it does take the motivation to seek the truth before we make that first step.  

I will readily admit that fear of eternity drove me back to the Church and is driving me to seek the truth of Orthodoxy.  Is that the Spirit reminding me of my mortality? Is fear of judgement then really a bad thing, from an Orthodox point of view?

Regards,
William Unland
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« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2011, 11:27:19 PM »

Is fear of judgement then really a bad thing, from an Orthodox point of view?

Fwiw, plenty of  people fear the dread judgment. For example, St. Anthony said "I no longer fear God, but I love Him. For love casts out fear. (John 4:18)" (Saying 32)  Then in the very next saying says he says, in part: "Always have the fear of God before your eyes... Remember what you have promised God, for it will be required of you on the day of judegment" (Saying 33). And Evagrius said, in part: "Sit in your cell, collecting your thoughts. Remember the day of your death... Remember also what happens in hell and think about the state of the souls down their, their painful silence, their most bitter groanings, their fear, their strife, their waiting. Think of their grief without end and the tears their souls shed eternally... Imagine the fearful and dread judgement. Consider the fate kept for sinners, their shame before the face of God and the angels and archangels and all men, that is to say, the punishments, the eternal fire, worms that rest not, the darkness, gnashing of teeth, fear and supplications." (Saying 1)
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 11:29:13 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

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« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2011, 11:41:37 PM »

Is fear of judgement then really a bad thing, from an Orthodox point of view?
I don't know about the Orthodox view on that, but I think I read this in the Philokalia (and don't quote me on this) But one of the desert father said something like "The only thing I should really fear is to fall away from this spiritual path". I kinda like that idea.   
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« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2011, 02:56:43 AM »

Is fear of judgement then really a bad thing, from an Orthodox point of view?
I don't know about the Orthodox view on that, but I think I read this in the Philokalia (and don't quote me on this) But one of the desert father said something like "The only thing I should really fear is to fall away from this spiritual path". I kinda like that idea.   

Thank you.  I agree with that statement wholly.  The point really is: WHY are we afraid to fall off the path?
In my case I struggle to live up to what I see as my divine potential.  At this point it is no so much a fear of judgement as to live up to the goals that have been set for me spiritually.  But in the beginning it was definitely the fear of judgement that started me along the path.

Best regards,
William Unland
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« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2011, 03:52:13 AM »

Hello,

It has been suggested on another thread that a soul my repent or reach the goal of Theosis AFTER death. This seems to be solely based on the tradition of praying for the dead.

As an inquirer with little grasp of true Orthodoxy I humbly ask if this is a widely held belief? Coming from the Latin tradition, we believe that free will only acts during our mortal lives and that with death we loose the ability to affect our state of grace.

I ask because it seems odd to me that Jesus and the Apostles would teach that we should live like Christ here on earth, if it were within God's plan that we can repent for a totally hedonistic, atheistic, and selfish life AFTER death.

Speaking from a totally selfish HUMAN point of view, what would be the point of living a chaste life and of seeking grace through the manner of our life if it doesn't really mean much.  If I can live a dissolute life, whore around on the wife, steal from the poor, etc. and then when confronted with the light of God after death realize that it was all really true and THEN repent and be saved, then the whole living like Christ idea seems rather mute doesn't it? Our human nature, our fallen nature, does not cause us to be "good" for goodness sake, to borrow a phrase.  Without a theology to suggest to us that it is the "right" and "advantageous" path, how many would choose to follow it?

Why would monastics, a great tradition in Orthodoxy deny themselves if this is true? I know that it can be argued that we each choose our path to God, BUT after we die and are confronted with the reality would anyone choose NOT to repent.  It seems to this uninitiated mind contradictory to Christian ideals.

Please correct me.

Regards,
William Unland

 A person absolutely can be saved after they pass away and it is not a widely held belief, it is dogmatic belief of the Church.  Why else, as you have pointed out, would the Church deign to pray for the departed?  This, however, is not the same thing as a person being able to repent once they have passed away.  That belief is not widely held and actually goes against Free Will. 
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« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2011, 12:41:07 PM »

... it is dogmatic belief of the Church.

I don't get this... where did you get this idea? who said it was a dogma?

Quote
Why else, as you have pointed out, would the Church deign to pray for the departed?

Well, one alternative is that such prayers alleviate pain/suffering, or make it easier for those who have been condemned and will be condemned, without actually changing their status.
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« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2011, 02:18:26 PM »


The witness of the tollhouses of repentance and salvation after death

If people believe in the tollhouse teaching then of course they must believe in repentance after death.    Saint Theodora is tormented by a great number of black and evil Ethiopians who accuse her of the sins of her life, many of which she had not repented of.  But she was able to repent of them at the tollhouses as she passed through them one by one.

If she had been unable to repent she would have been taken to hell by the demons.

So certainly in the tollhouse teaching it is both possible to

1) repent after death
2) be saved after death.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/death/theodora.aspx
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« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2011, 03:23:04 PM »

A person absolutely can be saved after they pass away and it is not a widely held belief, it is dogmatic belief of the Church. Why else, as you have pointed out, would the Church deign to pray for the departed?  This, however, is not the same thing as a person being able to repent once they have passed away.  That belief is not widely held and actually goes against Free Will.  

I am no expert, but this level of certainty is simply not the case.  All of the clergy at my parish specifically stated that while the process after death is something of a mystery, we only have this life to determine our fate.

Here's an excerpt from Fr. Coniaris' "Introducing the Orthodox Church" book (p146-147) echoing this belief:

"Can there be anything like repentance after we die?  The Orthodox Church teaches that the state of the soul at the Particular Judgment (immediately after death) is fixed and unchangeable, that is, there can be no moral improvement or repentance beyond the grave. 'I must work the works of him who sent me, while it is day,' said Jesus, 'night comes, when no man can work' (John 9:4).  In his mercy God gives us many chances to repent and return to Him But this should not lead anyone to presume upon God's goodness.  One day 'night will come when no man can work.'"

Is the final word in Orthodoxy?  Certainly not, but it also shows that repentance after death doesn't appear to be the clear-cut dogmatic teaching you claim.

 
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« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2011, 04:04:35 PM »

The Tradition of the Church has at least one example where someone was saved after their death, through the prayers of the others. That is Saint Theodora, the wife of Emperor Theophilos.


Quote
The Emperor Theophilos, who fought against the holy icons, was a heretic and went to Hell. His wife, Theodora, however, begged Patriarch Methodios to pray for his soul. So the patriarch, together with other virtuous members of the clergy prayed fervently in Aghia Sophia for the whole of the first week of Great Lent (During this period they would have certainly have said Thrice-Holies and not performed the Divine Liturgy). Likewise, the Empress Theodora prayed with the whole of her court in the Church of the Mother of God. When Saturday dawned, Theodora saw Christ in a vision! And he said to her: "Woman, great is your faith. Know, therefore, that through your tears and your faith, and the entreaties of my priests I shall show favour to your husband, Theophilos." The miracle happened. The heretic Theophilos was saved.
After Death by Archim. Vasilios Bakogiannis, page 96
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« Reply #15 on: February 07, 2011, 04:23:33 PM »

[Speaking from first hand experience, When I lived my life as a viking marauder, I lived my life at odds with God.

Hello,

I appreciate your "tongue in cheek' analysis, but I must mention that having been a cop police for a long time I have met more than my share of "viking marauders" in my life.  Some do indeed "choose" that way of life, perhaps more than those of us who spend our time on religious themed boards may wish to acknowledge. The disadvantages to the lifestyle you mention are totally lost on them.

I hope that we both succeed in our journey to God, BUT it has been my experience that most, given a chance, will not pursue the Divine. Fear of punishment , either now in life or after death is a great motivator.  I proffer that fear is not necessarily a bad thing.  It would be nice if we all had the propensity towards good, but I can't believe that is our reality based on my own life experiences.  Of course the ideal, as presented by the Church is just that, an ideal, something to try to achieve, but it does take the motivation to seek the truth before we make that first step.  

I will readily admit that fear of eternity drove me back to the Church and is driving me to seek the truth of Orthodoxy.  Is that the Spirit reminding me of my mortality? Is fear of judgement then really a bad thing, from an Orthodox point of view?

Regards,
William Unland

Couple of things. First, fear, shame, self-condemnation, etc... are all good things. They simply are not the only things.  Second, it is one thing to judge oneself and another to judge others. I think that it is perfectly acceptable and logically fine to hold on the one hand that I will be part of the goats on that dread day unless I change now and on the other hand that I hope that God in his infinite love will allow others to be saved after they die. I do not dare to apply that hope in my own case or to delay (because we do not know when we will die or when the Second Coming will occur). To do so would be incautious and sort of playing games with the Lord, which I do not think is a good thing, to say the least. On the other hand, I firmly believe that I must pray intercessory prayers for the departed as much as I must pray for the living--this as an obligation or a natural function of being a believer.
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« Reply #16 on: February 07, 2011, 05:55:33 PM »

Hello,

It has been suggested on another thread that a soul my repent or reach the goal of Theosis AFTER death. This seems to be solely based on the tradition of praying for the dead.

As an inquirer with little grasp of true Orthodoxy I humbly ask if this is a widely held belief? Coming from the Latin tradition, we believe that free will only acts during our mortal lives and that with death we loose the ability to affect our state of grace.

I ask because it seems odd to me that Jesus and the Apostles would teach that we should live like Christ here on earth, if it were within God's plan that we can repent for a totally hedonistic, atheistic, and selfish life AFTER death.

Speaking from a totally selfish HUMAN point of view, what would be the point of living a chaste life and of seeking grace through the manner of our life if it doesn't really mean much.  If I can live a dissolute life, whore around on the wife, steal from the poor, etc. and then when confronted with the light of God after death realize that it was all really true and THEN repent and be saved, then the whole living like Christ idea seems rather mute doesn't it? Our human nature, our fallen nature, does not cause us to be "good" for goodness sake, to borrow a phrase.  Without a theology to suggest to us that it is the "right" and "advantageous" path, how many would choose to follow it?

Why would monastics, a great tradition in Orthodoxy deny themselves if this is true? I know that it can be argued that we each choose our path to God, BUT after we die and are confronted with the reality would anyone choose NOT to repent.  It seems to this uninitiated mind contradictory to Christian ideals.

Please correct me.

Regards,
William Unland

 A person absolutely can be saved after they pass away and it is not a widely held belief, it is dogmatic belief of the Church.  Why else, as you have pointed out, would the Church deign to pray for the departed?  This, however, is not the same thing as a person being able to repent once they have passed away.  That belief is not widely held and actually goes against Free Will. 
How are we to interpret the parable of the rich man and Lazarus in light of this?
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« Reply #17 on: February 07, 2011, 08:33:28 PM »

This is an interesting and cautionary corner of Orthodox theology. It at once holds before us the dread judgement and the merciful Judge. Though I cannot say I "know" the answer, I suspect that the truth of the matter is held in dynamic tension between the poles of Justice and Mercy. What we believe and practice is less the stuff of dogmatized theology but of long struggled for and hard one faith.  There are several stories and sayings that I think illustrate the Orthodox mind on the subject.

1. Though not of the Orthodox faith C. S. Lewis made what I think is an insightful observation concerning the Judgement. I paraphrase…the Judgement is when our lives will cry out to God "Thy will be done," or He will say to us concerning our lives, "Thy will be done." More terrible words we could never hear.

2. A story about a monastic elder…I forget which one. He was on his death bed surrounded by his disciples and it was obvious he was in a state of perplexity wherein he would say from time to time he did not know if he would be saved.  His disciples were terrified for he was the holiest man they had ever known, and if he was so unsure what hope was there for them?  Seeing their distress the elder calmed them for he had allowed them to see his death struggle for this reason. He said to them not to fear that he would be saved through their prayers, just as they would be saved through his, and those of others.  He told them no man can save himself, but each can assist in the salvation of his neighbor.  The long and short of his last example to them being that the Church fishes with a net, not a line and sinker.

2. Another elder near death was asked by his disciples what he should say unto the Lord at the Judgement when asked if he should go to heaven or to hell?  The elder replied, "I shall say, wherever Thy love places me O Lord, wherever Thy love places me, only do not separate me from Thy love."

3. Another…surely didactic story is told of a bitter old women who went to hell for her sins. Her guardian angel was very distressed and long sought a way to save her.  At last the angel in the book of her life  noticed one small thing that he might present before the Lord on her behalf. "See Lord she once fed a beggar." And in truth, after a fashion she had. A beggar had come to her gate and in anger she had flung an onion at him. So the Lord gave the angel the onion and told him to lift her out of hell with that.

Rejoicing the angel called down to the woman and told her to grab hold to the stem of the onion and he would lift her out of hell. She grabbed on to it tightly and inch by inch began to rise from the pit.  Others saw her and wanting to escape themselves grabbed hold of her knees and feet and they too were lifted up. And yet others grabbed on to those below her until a grate mass of souls was rising up out of condemnation.  But the old woman looked down in distress and fear the weight of them all would be too much so she began to kick and to shout, "this is my onion. This is my onion" knocking off those who clung to her with all her strength…and immediately therewith the stem of the onion snapped, and the old woman fell back into hell.
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