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Asteriktos
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« on: February 02, 2011, 03:22:57 AM » |
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Did the love and creative nature of God make it inevitable that the universe (and humanity) would be created? Or was it just our luck that God decided to do so? (ok, people aren't going to like the word luck there, but you can insert whatever term you like)
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ialmisry
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« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2011, 03:39:28 AM » |
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No, He was under no compulsion to create. If He were, it would empty Him of any Will and Person, and reduce Him to the force of monism.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
and both come out of your mouth
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Asteriktos
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« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2011, 03:42:24 AM » |
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But is he not under compulsion to do some things? for example, to tell the truth? (as verses like Tit. 1:2 seem to indicate)
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Dnarmist
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« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2011, 04:31:06 AM » |
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If God loves Himself why create anything else?
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sainthieu
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« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2011, 09:47:47 AM » |
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No, but I'm glad He did.
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« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 09:49:43 AM by sainthieu »
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Jetavan
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« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2011, 01:24:48 PM » |
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Did the love and creative nature of God make it inevitable that the universe (and humanity) would be created? Or was it just our luck that God decided to do so? (ok, people aren't going to like the word luck there, but you can insert whatever term you like)
Acting under compulsion would a sign of bondage. Some would call it an 'addiction'. I don't think God could said to be addicted, nor bound. |
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« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 01:25:42 PM by Jetavan »
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
I'm not a witch.
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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Jetavan
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« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2011, 01:26:29 PM » |
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But is he not under compulsion to do some things? for example, to tell the truth? (as verses like Tit. 1:2 seem to indicate)
"What is truth?" |
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
I'm not a witch.
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2011, 03:12:47 PM » |
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I think it might be accurate to say that Creation was reflective of the nature of God and thus predictable.
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Gamliel
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« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2011, 03:33:03 PM » |
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I always thought He did it because He wanted to, just like artists create today.
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Father H
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« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2011, 05:34:06 PM » |
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No, He was under no compulsion to create. Correct. |
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« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2011, 05:37:35 PM » |
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But is he not under compulsion to do some things? for example, to tell the truth? (as verses like Tit. 1:2 seem to indicate)
No, he is not under compulsion to do anything. He chooses never to lie. Titus 1.2 says precisely that. It does not say that he cannot lie, it says that he does not lie. |
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« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2011, 05:39:07 PM » |
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Did the love and creative nature of God make it inevitable that the universe (and humanity) would be created? Or was it just our luck that God decided to do so? (ok, people aren't going to like the word luck there, but you can insert whatever term you like)
Acting under compulsion would a sign of bondage. Some would call it an 'addiction'. I don't think God could said to be addicted, nor bound. Right, there is no compulsion in God. God can create a rock he cannot lift, and can lift the same rock. The issue is not "can" but "will." |
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Asteriktos
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« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2011, 05:41:04 PM » |
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Father, Part of the problem I guess was that I was relying on the KJV translation, which says: "Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began" - Tit. 1:1-2 But is he not under compulsion to do some things? for example, to tell the truth? (as verses like Tit. 1:2 seem to indicate)
"What is truth?" Or Who?  |
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Father H
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« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2011, 05:41:31 PM » |
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If God loves Himself why create anything else?
Why do you give gifts to those whom you love? "God loves Himself" needs clarified here. The Father loves the Son and Spirit. The Son loves the Father and Spirit. the Spirit loves the Father and Son. Creation is an ex nihilo expression of this love. |
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Father H
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« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2011, 05:45:31 PM » |
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I know, and there are several of those pesky English translations. But there are others, old and new, that are accurate: Young's Literal Translation: "upon hope of life age-during, which God, who doth not lie, did promise before times of ages," NIV: "a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time," English Standard Version: "in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began" Father, Part of the problem I guess was that I was relying on the KJV translation, which says: "Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began" - Tit. 1:1-2 But is he not under compulsion to do some things? for example, to tell the truth? (as verses like Tit. 1:2 seem to indicate)
"What is truth?" Or Who? |
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« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2011, 05:47:25 PM » |
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Also another oldie, Douay-Rheims: "Unto the hope of life everlasting, which God, who lieth not, hath promised before the times of the world"
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2011, 06:35:59 PM » |
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God can create a rock he cannot lift, and can lift the same rock.
That's not logical. If God can lift the rock then it isn't actually a rock that He cannot lift and therefore He cannot create a rock that He cannot lift. |
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« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2011, 06:37:40 PM » |
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"God loves Himself" needs clarified here. The Father loves the Son and Spirit. The Son loves the Father and Spirit. the Spirit loves the Father and Son.
Yeah. And I don't think that that really qualifies "God loves Himself" at all. |
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Antonis
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« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2011, 06:40:21 PM » |
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God can create a rock he cannot lift, and can lift the same rock.
That's not logical. If God can lift the rock then it isn't actually a rock that He cannot lift and therefore He cannot create a rock that He cannot lift. But God can do anything.  And He created the logic we know, He doesn't have to obey His creation. |
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« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 06:42:27 PM by Antonis »
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How shall I not weep when I think of death? For I have seen my brother in his coffin, without glory or comeliness. What, then, do I expect? And what do I hope for? Only grant me, O Lord, repentance before the end.
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Jetavan
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« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2011, 07:50:16 PM » |
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God can create a rock he cannot lift, and can lift the same rock.
He cannot create a rock that He cannot lift. That's like saying God cannot create a woman from whom He is to be born. |
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
I'm not a witch.
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2011, 07:51:31 PM » |
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God can create a rock he cannot lift, and can lift the same rock.
He cannot create a rock that He cannot lift. That's like saying God cannot create a woman from whom He is to be born. How? |
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« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2011, 07:52:21 PM » |
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"God loves Himself" needs clarified here. The Father loves the Son and Spirit. The Son loves the Father and Spirit. the Spirit loves the Father and Son.
Yeah. And I don't think that that really qualifies "God loves Himself" at all. Your point being that I shouldn't have let the phrase "God loves Himself" slide |
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2011, 07:53:46 PM » |
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But God can do anything. God can't do things that violate His very nature. Omnipotent is His nature. If there is a rock that He cannot lift then His omnipotence is violated. Therefore it is not possible. |
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« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2011, 07:54:47 PM » |
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"God loves Himself" needs clarified here. The Father loves the Son and Spirit. The Son loves the Father and Spirit. the Spirit loves the Father and Son.
Yeah. And I don't think that that really qualifies "God loves Himself" at all. Your point being that I shouldn't have let the phrase "God loves Himself" slide Well, for one thing I just wanted to show appreciation for your specifying that it its the persons of the Trinity who love each other, not any one of them loving themselves. But, yeah, I suppose I was also pointing out that I think in that context "God loves Himself" doesn't make sense. |
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Jetavan
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« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2011, 07:55:33 PM » |
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God can create a rock he cannot lift, and can lift the same rock.
He cannot create a rock that He cannot lift. That's like saying God cannot create a woman from whom He is to be born. How? God the Father can create a rock that God the Son cannot lift, and God the Father can lift the same rock. |
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
I'm not a witch.
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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Father H
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« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2011, 07:56:52 PM » |
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God can create a rock he cannot lift, and can lift the same rock.
He cannot create a rock that He cannot lift. Then you are saying that He is not omnipotent, which is a heresy, as you are saying that there is one thing He cannot do: create a rock that He cannot lift. He has the power to give, and the power to take away. "With God, nothing is impossible" and "with God, all things are possible." |
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2011, 07:57:24 PM » |
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God can create a rock he cannot lift, and can lift the same rock.
He cannot create a rock that He cannot lift. That's like saying God cannot create a woman from whom He is to be born. How? God the Father can create a rock that God the Son cannot lift, and God the Father can lift the same rock. That sounds like you are attributing greater power to the Father and that would be heretical. |
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« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2011, 07:58:25 PM » |
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"God loves Himself" needs clarified here. The Father loves the Son and Spirit. The Son loves the Father and Spirit. the Spirit loves the Father and Son. Yeah. And I don't think that that really qualifies "God loves Himself" at all. Your point being that I shouldn't have let the phrase "God loves Himself" slide Well, for one thing I just wanted to show appreciation for your specifying that it its the persons of the Trinity who love each other, not any one of them loving themselves.But, yeah, I suppose I was also pointing out that I think in that context "God loves Himself" doesn't make sense. Yes, I was trying the more polite way of correcting the statement, but you are correct, "God loves Himself" is not so good as it dwells in extreme obscurity and may imply selfishness. |
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« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 07:59:07 PM by FatherHLL »
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2011, 07:59:18 PM » |
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God can create a rock he cannot lift, and can lift the same rock.
He cannot create a rock that He cannot lift. Then you are saying that He is not omnipotent, which is a heresy, as you are saying that there is one thing He cannot do: create a rock that He cannot lift. He has the power to give, and the power to take away. "With God, nothing is impossible" and "with God, all things are possible." God contradicting His own nature is not "something", but rather simple nonsense. The idea that omnipotence involves the ability to violate omnipotence is ridiculous. |
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Jetavan
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« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2011, 08:02:07 PM » |
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God can create a rock he cannot lift, and can lift the same rock.
He cannot create a rock that He cannot lift. That's like saying God cannot create a woman from whom He is to be born. How? God the Father can create a rock that God the Son cannot lift, and God the Father can lift the same rock. That sounds like you are attributing greater power to the Father and that would be heretical. And it sounds like you are attributing greater power to a rock. |
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If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
I'm not a witch.
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2011, 08:05:12 PM » |
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God can create a rock he cannot lift, and can lift the same rock.
He cannot create a rock that He cannot lift. That's like saying God cannot create a woman from whom He is to be born. How? God the Father can create a rock that God the Son cannot lift, and God the Father can lift the same rock. That sounds like you are attributing greater power to the Father and that would be heretical. And it sounds like you are attributing greater power to a rock. No, it doesn't exist. The rock has no power because it has no existence. Of course God cannot lift something that does not exist and cannot ever exist. Specifying an interpersonal difference in power within the Trinity, however, is clearly heretical. |
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« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2011, 08:07:51 PM » |
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God can create a rock he cannot lift, and can lift the same rock.
He cannot create a rock that He cannot lift. Then you are saying that He is not omnipotent, which is a heresy, as you are saying that there is one thing He cannot do: create a rock that He cannot lift. He has the power to give, and the power to take away. "With God, nothing is impossible" and "with God, all things are possible." God contradicting His own nature is not "something", but rather simple nonsense.The idea that omnipotence involves the ability to violate omnipotence is ridiculous. Not so. Omnipotence is the power to do anything, including to put restrictions on oneself, and to remove those restrictions at will. |
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Asteriktos
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« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2011, 08:08:13 PM » |
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The idea that God could be contained in the womb of a woman is also ridiculous and defies all logic... but does it being ridiculous and illogical mean that it can't be true?
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2011, 08:19:51 PM » |
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The idea that God could be contained in the womb of a woman is also ridiculous and defies all logic... but does it being ridiculous and illogical mean that it can't be true?
If the Godhead of the Logos had changed from being everywhere to being simply confined within Mary's womb, that would have been illogical. As things actually happened, however, with the hypostatic union, I don't see how it defies logic. |
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« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2011, 08:24:51 PM » |
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God can create a rock he cannot lift, and can lift the same rock.
He cannot create a rock that He cannot lift. Then you are saying that He is not omnipotent, which is a heresy, as you are saying that there is one thing He cannot do: create a rock that He cannot lift. He has the power to give, and the power to take away. "With God, nothing is impossible" and "with God, all things are possible." God contradicting His own nature is not "something", but rather simple nonsense.The idea that omnipotence involves the ability to violate omnipotence is ridiculous. Not so. Omnipotence is the power to do anything, including to put restrictions on oneself, and to remove those restrictions at will. God cannot be restricted. There can be no change in the Godhead. If God were to restrict His power, He would no longer be omnipotent, and thus He could not regain His omnipotence, and thus all existence, including Himself, would be annihilated because of lack of support from an omnipotent being. |
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Asteriktos
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« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2011, 08:25:17 PM » |
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The idea that God could be contained in the womb of a woman is also ridiculous and defies all logic... but does it being ridiculous and illogical mean that it can't be true?
If the Godhead of the Logos had changed from being everywhere to being simply confined within Mary's womb, that would have been illogical. As things actually happened, however, with the hypostatic union, I don't see how it defies logic. Are you leaving any room for mystery? Or is everything about Christianity logical to you? |
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Father H
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« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2011, 08:31:32 PM » |
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God cannot be restricted. There can be no change in the Godhead. If God were to restrict His power, He would no longer be omnipotent, and thus He could not regain His omnipotence, and thus all existence, including Himself, would be annihilated because of lack of support from an omnipotent being. Not true, God creating is a function of His Energy, not His Essence. There is no change in God when God creates a rock of any kind. So your argument against the creation of a rock He cannot lift by trying to apply a change in God's nature does not hold water. |
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #37 on: February 02, 2011, 11:38:42 PM » |
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The idea that God could be contained in the womb of a woman is also ridiculous and defies all logic... but does it being ridiculous and illogical mean that it can't be true?
If the Godhead of the Logos had changed from being everywhere to being simply confined within Mary's womb, that would have been illogical. As things actually happened, however, with the hypostatic union, I don't see how it defies logic. Are you leaving any room for mystery? Or is everything about Christianity logical to you? Not everything. |
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #38 on: February 02, 2011, 11:40:36 PM » |
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God cannot be restricted. There can be no change in the Godhead. If God were to restrict His power, He would no longer be omnipotent, and thus He could not regain His omnipotence, and thus all existence, including Himself, would be annihilated because of lack of support from an omnipotent being. Not true, God creating is a function of His Energy, not His Essence. There is no change in God when God creates a rock of any kind. So your argument against the creation of a rock He cannot lift by trying to apply a change in God's nature does not hold water. It's not the rock itself, but rather the supposed quality that it is so dense that God cannot lift it. Can God create an eternal being? No, it's nonsensical, just like this proposition. |
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Asteriktos
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« Reply #39 on: February 02, 2011, 11:41:21 PM » |
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The idea that God could be contained in the womb of a woman is also ridiculous and defies all logic... but does it being ridiculous and illogical mean that it can't be true?
If the Godhead of the Logos had changed from being everywhere to being simply confined within Mary's womb, that would have been illogical. As things actually happened, however, with the hypostatic union, I don't see how it defies logic. Are you leaving any room for mystery? Or is everything about Christianity logical to you? Not everything. Ok, fair enough, I will think more about the example I gave. |
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Antonis
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« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2011, 01:02:27 AM » |
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But God can do anything. God can't do things that violate His very nature. Omnipotent is His nature. If there is a rock that He cannot lift then His omnipotence is violated. Therefore it is not possible. Wouldn't not being able to do something violate His nature as well? |
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How shall I not weep when I think of death? For I have seen my brother in his coffin, without glory or comeliness. What, then, do I expect? And what do I hope for? Only grant me, O Lord, repentance before the end.
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2011, 01:31:27 AM » |
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Oh comon. What would you have us believe? That God can annihilate Himself?
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Antonis
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« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2011, 07:40:50 PM » |
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And then recreate himself at will.
Perhaps.
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How shall I not weep when I think of death? For I have seen my brother in his coffin, without glory or comeliness. What, then, do I expect? And what do I hope for? Only grant me, O Lord, repentance before the end.
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2011, 07:55:58 PM » |
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Asteriktos
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« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2011, 08:10:43 PM » |
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And then recreate himself at will.
Perhaps.
That'd be a neat trick  |
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orthonorm
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« Reply #45 on: February 08, 2011, 06:19:22 PM » |
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No, He was under no compulsion to create. If He were, it would empty Him of any Will and Person, and reduce Him to the force of monism.
What if being love then God's Will and Person would create everything possible? This I don't think would be compulsion but the act of the Person of God through His Son and Spirit according to His Person. Do you believe God, to put it a sharp point on it, thought about creating or nor creating and then made a decision based on some sorta criteria? |
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We cannot legislate morality by passing laws controlling firearms. The only evil we can combat lies within our hearts. We need stronger laws to protect the moral foundation of society against the evil of gay marriage. |
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« Reply #46 on: February 08, 2011, 09:14:41 PM » |
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God can create a rock he cannot lift, and can lift the same rock.
He cannot create a rock that He cannot lift. Then you are saying that He is not omnipotent, which is a heresy, as you are saying that there is one thing He cannot do: create a rock that He cannot lift. He has the power to give, and the power to take away. "With God, nothing is impossible" and "with God, all things are possible." "Nonsense remains nonsense, even when we talk it about God."-C.S. Lewis on the omnipotence paradox |
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"Some have such command of their bowels, that they can break wind continuously at pleasure, so as to produce the effect of singing."- St. Augustine of Hippo
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Antonis
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« Reply #47 on: February 08, 2011, 09:56:10 PM » |
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So God cannot do everything? He is not omnipotent? "Nonsense remains nonsense, even when we talk it about God."-C.S. Lewis on the omnipotence paradox So God obeys our rules of logic and "nonsense", something He created? |
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« Last Edit: February 08, 2011, 09:57:34 PM by Antonis »
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How shall I not weep when I think of death? For I have seen my brother in his coffin, without glory or comeliness. What, then, do I expect? And what do I hope for? Only grant me, O Lord, repentance before the end.
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #48 on: February 08, 2011, 10:27:56 PM » |
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I believe that aspect of the apparent contradiction must be pointed explicitly for the very fact the God typically is depicted as a living and a "changing" God.
Living, yes. But that does not necessarily imply changing. And I have seen nothing Traditional that has implied that God is changing. Unless you are meaning something very obscure by "changing" which I am not understanding. |
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #49 on: February 08, 2011, 10:30:49 PM » |
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"Nonsense remains nonsense, even when we talk it about God."-C.S. Lewis on the omnipotence paradox
Exactly! |
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« Reply #50 on: February 08, 2011, 10:32:19 PM » |
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So God cannot do everything? He is not omnipotent?
No, God can't do anything nonsensical. He can do anything real that actually respects His nature. |
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #51 on: February 08, 2011, 10:33:38 PM » |
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So God obeys our rules of logic and "nonsense", something He created?
This isn't a matter of rules. This is a matter of God not being able to contradict truths concerning Himself. |
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« Reply #52 on: February 09, 2011, 07:42:39 PM » |
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So God cannot do everything? He is not omnipotent?
No, God can't do anything nonsensical. He can do anything real that actually respects His nature. Is He a slave to His nature? Below it? |
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How shall I not weep when I think of death? For I have seen my brother in his coffin, without glory or comeliness. What, then, do I expect? And what do I hope for? Only grant me, O Lord, repentance before the end.
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #53 on: February 10, 2011, 12:19:27 AM » |
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The discussion with Papist regarding the changing/changeless nature of God has been moved to Orthodox-Catholic Discussion.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=33668.0Papist, even though you broached the subject in a very respectful manner that I appreciate, please do remember that Faith Issues is not the place for dialogue between Orthodox and Catholics. If you wish to question something we believe, please do so only on the Orthodox-Catholic board. Thank you.
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« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 12:24:06 AM by PeterTheAleut »
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #54 on: February 10, 2011, 12:23:29 AM » |
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So God cannot do everything? He is not omnipotent?
No, God can't do anything nonsensical. He can do anything real that actually respects His nature. Is He a slave to His nature? Below it? He is identified with His nature and subsists in it like other beings. |
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« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 12:23:52 AM by deusveritasest »
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« Reply #55 on: February 10, 2011, 01:06:39 AM » |
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But He cannot breach it? In essence, there are things God cannot do?
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How shall I not weep when I think of death? For I have seen my brother in his coffin, without glory or comeliness. What, then, do I expect? And what do I hope for? Only grant me, O Lord, repentance before the end.
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #56 on: February 10, 2011, 04:12:09 AM » |
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In essence, there are things God cannot do?
Yes, I've already said this, God cannot nonsensically defy who He is. |
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« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 04:12:59 AM by deusveritasest »
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Achronos
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« Reply #57 on: February 10, 2011, 05:38:15 AM » |
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Well He did make it so there is much reason to celebrate, right right?  |
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« Last Edit: February 10, 2011, 05:38:40 AM by Aposphet »
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« Reply #58 on: February 10, 2011, 09:15:15 PM » |
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In essence, there are things God cannot do?
Yes, I've already said this, God cannot nonsensically defy who He is. I disagree. God by His own will does not nonsensically defy who He is. That does not mean that He can not do so. |
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Antonis
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« Reply #59 on: February 10, 2011, 10:32:33 PM » |
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In essence, there are things God cannot do?
Yes, I've already said this, God cannot nonsensically defy who He is. I disagree. God by His own will does not nonsensically defy who He is. That does not mean that He can not do so. I agree, considering there is nothing that God can't do. However, there are a lot of things God won't do. |
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How shall I not weep when I think of death? For I have seen my brother in his coffin, without glory or comeliness. What, then, do I expect? And what do I hope for? Only grant me, O Lord, repentance before the end.
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deusveritasest
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« Reply #60 on: February 11, 2011, 12:12:36 AM » |
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In essence, there are things God cannot do?
Yes, I've already said this, God cannot nonsensically defy who He is. I disagree. God by His own will does not nonsensically defy who He is. That does not mean that He can not do so. I'm aware that this is what you and Antonis believe. That much should have already been clear. |
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