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Author Topic: Did God Have To Make The Universe?  (Read 3802 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: February 02, 2011, 03:22:57 AM »

Did the love and creative nature of God make it inevitable that the universe (and humanity) would be created? Or was it just our luck that God decided to do so? (ok, people aren't going to like the word luck there, but you can insert whatever term you like)
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« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2011, 03:39:28 AM »

No, He was under no compulsion to create.  If He were, it would empty Him of any Will and Person, and reduce Him to the force of monism.
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« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2011, 03:42:24 AM »

But is he not under compulsion to do some things? for example, to tell the truth? (as verses like Tit. 1:2 seem to indicate)
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« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2011, 04:31:06 AM »

If God loves Himself why create anything else?
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« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2011, 09:47:47 AM »

No, but I'm glad He did.
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« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2011, 01:24:48 PM »

Did the love and creative nature of God make it inevitable that the universe (and humanity) would be created? Or was it just our luck that God decided to do so? (ok, people aren't going to like the word luck there, but you can insert whatever term you like)
Acting under compulsion would a sign of bondage. Some would call it an 'addiction'. I don't think God could said to be addicted, nor bound.
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« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2011, 01:26:29 PM »

But is he not under compulsion to do some things? for example, to tell the truth? (as verses like Tit. 1:2 seem to indicate)
"What is truth?"
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« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2011, 03:12:47 PM »

I think it might be accurate to say that Creation was reflective of the nature of God and thus predictable.
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« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2011, 03:33:03 PM »

I always thought He did it because He wanted to, just like artists create today.
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« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2011, 05:34:06 PM »

No, He was under no compulsion to create. 
Correct. 
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« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2011, 05:37:35 PM »

But is he not under compulsion to do some things? for example, to tell the truth? (as verses like Tit. 1:2 seem to indicate)

No, he is not under compulsion to do anything.  He chooses never to lie.  Titus 1.2 says precisely that.  It does not say that he cannot lie, it says that he does not lie.   
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« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2011, 05:39:07 PM »

Did the love and creative nature of God make it inevitable that the universe (and humanity) would be created? Or was it just our luck that God decided to do so? (ok, people aren't going to like the word luck there, but you can insert whatever term you like)
Acting under compulsion would a sign of bondage. Some would call it an 'addiction'. I don't think God could said to be addicted, nor bound.
Right, there is no compulsion in God.  God can create a rock he cannot lift, and can lift the same rock.  The issue is not "can" but "will." 
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« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2011, 05:41:04 PM »

Father,

Part of the problem I guess was that I was relying on the KJV translation, which says: "Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began" - Tit. 1:1-2

But is he not under compulsion to do some things? for example, to tell the truth? (as verses like Tit. 1:2 seem to indicate)
"What is truth?"

Or Whopolice
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« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2011, 05:41:31 PM »

If God loves Himself why create anything else?

Why do you give gifts to those whom you love?  "God loves Himself" needs clarified here.   The Father loves the Son and Spirit.  The Son loves the Father and Spirit.  the Spirit loves the Father and Son.  Creation is an ex nihilo expression of this love.  
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« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2011, 05:45:31 PM »

I know, and there are several of those pesky English translations.  But there are others, old and new, that are accurate:

Young's Literal Translation:  "upon hope of life age-during, which God, who doth not lie, did promise before times of ages,"

NIV:  "a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,"

English Standard Version:  "in hope of eternal life, which God, who never lies, promised before the ages began"


Father,

Part of the problem I guess was that I was relying on the KJV translation, which says: "Paul, a servant of God, and an apostle of Jesus Christ, according to the faith of God's elect, and the acknowledging of the truth which is after godliness; In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began" - Tit. 1:1-2

But is he not under compulsion to do some things? for example, to tell the truth? (as verses like Tit. 1:2 seem to indicate)
"What is truth?"

Or Whopolice
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« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2011, 05:47:25 PM »

Also another oldie, Douay-Rheims:  "Unto the hope of life everlasting, which God, who lieth not, hath promised before the times of the world"
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« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2011, 06:35:59 PM »

God can create a rock he cannot lift, and can lift the same rock.

That's not logical. If God can lift the rock then it isn't actually a rock that He cannot lift and therefore He cannot create a rock that He cannot lift.
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« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2011, 06:37:40 PM »

"God loves Himself" needs clarified here.   The Father loves the Son and Spirit.  The Son loves the Father and Spirit.  the Spirit loves the Father and Son.

Yeah. And I don't think that that really qualifies "God loves Himself" at all.
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« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2011, 06:40:21 PM »

God can create a rock he cannot lift, and can lift the same rock.

That's not logical. If God can lift the rock then it isn't actually a rock that He cannot lift and therefore He cannot create a rock that He cannot lift.
But God can do anything.  Wink

And He created the logic we know, He doesn't have to obey His creation.
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« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2011, 07:50:16 PM »

God can create a rock he cannot lift, and can lift the same rock.
He cannot create a rock that He cannot lift.
That's like saying God cannot create a woman from whom He is to be born.
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« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2011, 07:51:31 PM »

God can create a rock he cannot lift, and can lift the same rock.
He cannot create a rock that He cannot lift.
That's like saying God cannot create a woman from whom He is to be born.

How?
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« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2011, 07:52:21 PM »

"God loves Himself" needs clarified here.   The Father loves the Son and Spirit.  The Son loves the Father and Spirit.  the Spirit loves the Father and Son.

Yeah. And I don't think that that really qualifies "God loves Himself" at all.

Your point being that I shouldn't have let the phrase "God loves Himself" slide
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« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2011, 07:53:46 PM »

But God can do anything.  Wink

God can't do things that violate His very nature. Omnipotent is His nature. If there is a rock that He cannot lift then His omnipotence is violated. Therefore it is not possible.
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« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2011, 07:54:47 PM »

"God loves Himself" needs clarified here.   The Father loves the Son and Spirit.  The Son loves the Father and Spirit.  the Spirit loves the Father and Son.

Yeah. And I don't think that that really qualifies "God loves Himself" at all.

Your point being that I shouldn't have let the phrase "God loves Himself" slide

Well, for one thing I just wanted to show appreciation for your specifying that it its the persons of the Trinity who love each other, not any one of them loving themselves.

But, yeah, I suppose I was also pointing out that I think in that context "God loves Himself" doesn't make sense.
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« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2011, 07:55:33 PM »

God can create a rock he cannot lift, and can lift the same rock.
He cannot create a rock that He cannot lift.
That's like saying God cannot create a woman from whom He is to be born.

How?
God the Father can create a rock that God the Son cannot lift, and God the Father can lift the same rock.

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« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2011, 07:56:52 PM »

God can create a rock he cannot lift, and can lift the same rock.
He cannot create a rock that He cannot lift.

Then you are saying that He is not omnipotent, which is a heresy, as you are saying that there is one thing He cannot do:  create a rock that He cannot lift.   He has the power to give, and the power to take away.   "With God, nothing is impossible" and "with God, all things are possible."  
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« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2011, 07:57:24 PM »

God can create a rock he cannot lift, and can lift the same rock.
He cannot create a rock that He cannot lift.
That's like saying God cannot create a woman from whom He is to be born.

How?
God the Father can create a rock that God the Son cannot lift, and God the Father can lift the same rock.



That sounds like you are attributing greater power to the Father and that would be heretical.
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« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2011, 07:58:25 PM »

"God loves Himself" needs clarified here.   The Father loves the Son and Spirit.  The Son loves the Father and Spirit.  the Spirit loves the Father and Son.
Yeah. And I don't think that that really qualifies "God loves Himself" at all.
Your point being that I shouldn't have let the phrase "God loves Himself" slide
Well, for one thing I just wanted to show appreciation for your specifying that it its the persons of the Trinity who love each other, not any one of them loving themselves.But, yeah, I suppose I was also pointing out that I think in that context "God loves Himself" doesn't make sense.
Yes, I was trying the more polite way of correcting the statement, but you are correct, "God loves Himself" is not so good as it dwells in extreme obscurity and may imply selfishness.    
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« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2011, 07:59:18 PM »

God can create a rock he cannot lift, and can lift the same rock.
He cannot create a rock that He cannot lift.

Then you are saying that He is not omnipotent, which is a heresy, as you are saying that there is one thing He cannot do:  create a rock that He cannot lift.   He has the power to give, and the power to take away.   "With God, nothing is impossible" and "with God, all things are possible."  

God contradicting His own nature is not "something", but rather simple nonsense.

The idea that omnipotence involves the ability to violate omnipotence is ridiculous.
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« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2011, 08:02:07 PM »

God can create a rock he cannot lift, and can lift the same rock.
He cannot create a rock that He cannot lift.
That's like saying God cannot create a woman from whom He is to be born.

How?
God the Father can create a rock that God the Son cannot lift, and God the Father can lift the same rock.



That sounds like you are attributing greater power to the Father and that would be heretical.
And it sounds like you are attributing greater power to a rock. Wink
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« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2011, 08:05:12 PM »

God can create a rock he cannot lift, and can lift the same rock.
He cannot create a rock that He cannot lift.
That's like saying God cannot create a woman from whom He is to be born.

How?
God the Father can create a rock that God the Son cannot lift, and God the Father can lift the same rock.



That sounds like you are attributing greater power to the Father and that would be heretical.
And it sounds like you are attributing greater power to a rock. Wink

No, it doesn't exist. The rock has no power because it has no existence. Of course God cannot lift something that does not exist and cannot ever exist.

Specifying an interpersonal difference in power within the Trinity, however, is clearly heretical.
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« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2011, 08:07:51 PM »

God can create a rock he cannot lift, and can lift the same rock.
He cannot create a rock that He cannot lift.
Then you are saying that He is not omnipotent, which is a heresy, as you are saying that there is one thing He cannot do:  create a rock that He cannot lift.   He has the power to give, and the power to take away.   "With God, nothing is impossible" and "with God, all things are possible."  
God contradicting His own nature is not "something", but rather simple nonsense.The idea that omnipotence involves the ability to violate omnipotence is ridiculous.

Not so.  Omnipotence is the power to do anything, including to put restrictions on oneself, and to remove those restrictions at will. 
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« Reply #32 on: February 02, 2011, 08:08:13 PM »

The idea that God could be contained in the womb of a woman is also ridiculous and defies all logic... but does it being ridiculous and illogical mean that it can't be true?
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« Reply #33 on: February 02, 2011, 08:19:51 PM »

The idea that God could be contained in the womb of a woman is also ridiculous and defies all logic... but does it being ridiculous and illogical mean that it can't be true?

If the Godhead of the Logos had changed from being everywhere to being simply confined within Mary's womb, that would have been illogical. As things actually happened, however, with the hypostatic union, I don't see how it defies logic.
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« Reply #34 on: February 02, 2011, 08:24:51 PM »

God can create a rock he cannot lift, and can lift the same rock.
He cannot create a rock that He cannot lift.
Then you are saying that He is not omnipotent, which is a heresy, as you are saying that there is one thing He cannot do:  create a rock that He cannot lift.   He has the power to give, and the power to take away.   "With God, nothing is impossible" and "with God, all things are possible."  
God contradicting His own nature is not "something", but rather simple nonsense.The idea that omnipotence involves the ability to violate omnipotence is ridiculous.

Not so.  Omnipotence is the power to do anything, including to put restrictions on oneself, and to remove those restrictions at will. 

God cannot be restricted. There can be no change in the Godhead. If God were to restrict His power, He would no longer be omnipotent, and thus He could not regain His omnipotence, and thus all existence, including Himself, would be annihilated because of lack of support from an omnipotent being.
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« Reply #35 on: February 02, 2011, 08:25:17 PM »

The idea that God could be contained in the womb of a woman is also ridiculous and defies all logic... but does it being ridiculous and illogical mean that it can't be true?

If the Godhead of the Logos had changed from being everywhere to being simply confined within Mary's womb, that would have been illogical. As things actually happened, however, with the hypostatic union, I don't see how it defies logic.

Are you leaving any room for mystery? Or is everything about Christianity logical to you?
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« Reply #36 on: February 02, 2011, 08:31:32 PM »

God cannot be restricted. There can be no change in the Godhead. If God were to restrict His power, He would no longer be omnipotent, and thus He could not regain His omnipotence, and thus all existence, including Himself, would be annihilated because of lack of support from an omnipotent being.

Not true, God creating is a function of His Energy, not His Essence.  There is no change in God when God creates a rock of any kind.  So your argument against the creation of a rock He cannot lift by trying to apply a change in God's nature does not hold water. 
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« Reply #37 on: February 02, 2011, 11:38:42 PM »

The idea that God could be contained in the womb of a woman is also ridiculous and defies all logic... but does it being ridiculous and illogical mean that it can't be true?

If the Godhead of the Logos had changed from being everywhere to being simply confined within Mary's womb, that would have been illogical. As things actually happened, however, with the hypostatic union, I don't see how it defies logic.

Are you leaving any room for mystery? Or is everything about Christianity logical to you?

Not everything.
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« Reply #38 on: February 02, 2011, 11:40:36 PM »

God cannot be restricted. There can be no change in the Godhead. If God were to restrict His power, He would no longer be omnipotent, and thus He could not regain His omnipotence, and thus all existence, including Himself, would be annihilated because of lack of support from an omnipotent being.

Not true, God creating is a function of His Energy, not His Essence.  There is no change in God when God creates a rock of any kind.  So your argument against the creation of a rock He cannot lift by trying to apply a change in God's nature does not hold water. 

It's not the rock itself, but rather the supposed quality that it is so dense that God cannot lift it.

Can God create an eternal being?

No, it's nonsensical, just like this proposition.
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« Reply #39 on: February 02, 2011, 11:41:21 PM »

The idea that God could be contained in the womb of a woman is also ridiculous and defies all logic... but does it being ridiculous and illogical mean that it can't be true?

If the Godhead of the Logos had changed from being everywhere to being simply confined within Mary's womb, that would have been illogical. As things actually happened, however, with the hypostatic union, I don't see how it defies logic.

Are you leaving any room for mystery? Or is everything about Christianity logical to you?

Not everything.

Ok, fair enough, I will think more about the example I gave.
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« Reply #40 on: February 03, 2011, 01:02:27 AM »

But God can do anything.  Wink

God can't do things that violate His very nature. Omnipotent is His nature. If there is a rock that He cannot lift then His omnipotence is violated. Therefore it is not possible.
Wouldn't not being able to do something violate His nature as well?
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« Reply #41 on: February 03, 2011, 01:31:27 AM »

Oh comon. What would you have us believe? That God can annihilate Himself?
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« Reply #42 on: February 03, 2011, 07:40:50 PM »

And then recreate himself at will.

Perhaps.
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« Reply #43 on: February 07, 2011, 07:55:58 PM »

 Roll Eyes
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« Reply #44 on: February 07, 2011, 08:10:43 PM »

And then recreate himself at will.

Perhaps.

That'd be a neat trick  Cheesy
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"But science is an inferential exercise, not a catalog of facts. Numbers, by themselves, specify nothing. All depends upon what you do with them" - Stephen Jay Gould
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