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Author Topic: Does God participate in Sexuality?  (Read 2010 times) Average Rating: 0
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David 2007
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« on: February 01, 2011, 12:59:27 PM »

Okay, this may sound like a completely weird 'off the wall' query, but if Orthodox Christians can't answer me I don't know who can.

Recently some meditation on God was provoked by a Southpark episode. One of the characters said: "If I'm I'm bi-curious, and I come from God, perhaps God is just a little Bi-Curious too!"

It made me think about the Creator. The source of the universe. God made sex, sexuality and procreation. Would he then understand lusts and sexuality?

Or is this something that 'limited' man only really understands from our limited experience?

It's somewhat of a mystery to me. God and sexuality. But it... "Sex" is often discussed in terms of sin and politics.



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« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2011, 01:35:46 PM »

Okay, this may sound like a completely weird 'off the wall' query, but if Orthodox Christians can't answer me I don't know who can.

Recently some meditation on God was provoked by a Southpark episode. One of the characters said: "If I'm I'm bi-curious, and I come from God, perhaps God is just a little Bi-Curious too!"

It made me think about the Creator. The source of the universe. God made sex, sexuality and procreation. Would he then understand lusts and sexuality?

Or is this something that 'limited' man only really understands from our limited experience?

It's somewhat of a mystery to me. God and sexuality. But it... "Sex" is often discussed in terms of sin and politics.

The Fathers link the yoking of the married couple to the yoking of the Persons of the Trinity.  Just like the Persons are One in Essence, so too the two become one, woman having been formed from the side of man as the Spirit processed from the Father, and produce offspring as the Father begets the Son.  What the Holy Trinity does in eternity, human nature does in time.

Lust is not a part of sex and sexuality, but a perversion of it. Lust is sin, sex is not.

Since the incarnation, God would know and understand lust since He was tempted in all things, but overcame them.
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« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2011, 03:39:49 PM »

I'm sure that God understands lust and sexuality, but with respect to His Godhead He obviously has no natural inclinations to either.
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« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2011, 04:10:28 PM »

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Lust is not a part of sex and sexuality, but a perversion of it. Lust is sin, sex is not.
Big words and a distinction without a difference. I think it would be more in keeping with Christianity to say that sex is kind of a nasty, necessary evil.
Or, if you put it on a scale of good, sex would score very low on it.
Whoever had sex they know it always involves lust.
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« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2011, 04:15:49 PM »

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Lust is not a part of sex and sexuality, but a perversion of it. Lust is sin, sex is not.
Big words and a distinction without a difference. I think it would be more in keeping with Christianity to say that sex is kind of a nasty, necessary evil.
Or, if you put it on a scale of good, sex would score very low on it.
Whoever had sex they know it always involves lust.


Which word is "big"?
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« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2011, 04:19:08 PM »

Lust is not a part of sex and sexuality, but a perversion of it. Lust is sin, sex is not.

This is not quibble nor argue, but could you give a simple, if unsophisticated understanding of what "lust" is and how we non-Saints would have sex without it (or what sex would be without it)?

Just some basic stuff. Not trying to draw out of a pointless or pointed debate.
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« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2011, 04:21:25 PM »

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Lust is not a part of sex and sexuality, but a perversion of it. Lust is sin, sex is not.
Big words and a distinction without a difference. I think it would be more in keeping with Christianity to say that sex is kind of a nasty, necessary evil.
Or, if you put it on a scale of good, sex would score very low on it.
Whoever had sex they know it always involves lust.


How do you explain the celebration of the conception of Mary and John the Forerunner? And the fact the icons showing the actually conjugal bed are illustrated and venerated?
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« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2011, 05:00:46 PM »

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Lust is not a part of sex and sexuality, but a perversion of it. Lust is sin, sex is not.
I think it would be more in keeping with Christianity to say that sex is kind of a nasty, necessary evil.
That is more of a neoplatonic view.
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« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2011, 05:10:54 PM »

Quote
Lust is not a part of sex and sexuality, but a perversion of it. Lust is sin, sex is not.
I think it would be more in keeping with Christianity to say that sex is kind of a nasty, necessary evil.
That is more of a neoplatonic view.
and stoic. In both cases, pagan.
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« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2011, 05:16:05 PM »

      "And it shall be, in that day,'
      Says the LORD,
      'That you will call Me ‘My Husband,’
      And no longer call Me ‘My Ba'al,’
      For I will take from her mouth the names of the Ba'als,
      And they shall be remembered by their name no more.
      
      In that day I will make a covenant for them
      With the beasts of the field,
      With the birds of the air,
      And with the creeping things of the ground.
      Bow and sword of battle I will shatter from the earth,
      To make them lie down safely.
      
      'I will betroth you to Me forever;
      Yes, I will betroth you to Me
      In righteousness and justice,
      In lovingkindness and mercy;
      I will betroth you to Me in faithfulness,
      And you shall know the LORD." -Hosea 2:16-20
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« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2011, 05:18:51 PM »

Lust is not a part of sex and sexuality, but a perversion of it. Lust is sin, sex is not.

This is not quibble nor argue, but could you give a simple, if unsophisticated understanding of what "lust" is and how we non-Saints would have sex without it (or what sex would be without it)?

Just some basic stuff. Not trying to draw out of a pointless or pointed debate.
Well, just to make it stark and clear: lust in this case would involve using another person as a tool of masturbation.  Sex would be business partnership of mutual exchange. Lovemaking and marriage would consist of recognizing a second self as "bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh."

The last is not outside anyone's reach.  The Church is not involved with the actions of non-Saints.  Everyone in the Church are on the road to sainthood (either forward or backward), and some have achieved sainthood through marital embrace.
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« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2011, 05:21:30 PM »

Quote
Lust is not a part of sex and sexuality, but a perversion of it. Lust is sin, sex is not.
Big words and a distinction without a difference. I think it would be more in keeping with Christianity to say that sex is kind of a nasty, necessary evil.
Or, if you put it on a scale of good, sex would score very low on it.
Whoever had sex they know it always involves lust.

Have you had sex with everyone so that you can speak for toate lume-everyone?

The marriage bed is undefiled.  Nothing nasty or evil about it.  If you think of it as a nasty evil, necessary or otherwise, check out the Gnostics.
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« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2011, 05:22:54 PM »

Lust is not a part of sex and sexuality, but a perversion of it. Lust is sin, sex is not.

This is not quibble nor argue, but could you give a simple, if unsophisticated understanding of what "lust" is and how we non-Saints would have sex without it (or what sex would be without it)?

Just some basic stuff. Not trying to draw out of a pointless or pointed debate.
Well, just to make it stark and clear: lust in this case would involve using another person as a tool of masturbation.  Sex would be business partnership of mutual exchange. Lovemaking and marriage would consist of recognizing a second self as "bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh."

The last is not outside anyone's reach.  The Church is not involved with the actions of non-Saints.  Everyone in the Church are on the road to sainthood (either forward or backward), and some have achieved sainthood through marital embrace.

Exactly the kinda answer I was looking for. Whether sophisticated or not.

Thanks.
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« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2011, 08:53:16 PM »

Quote
Lust is not a part of sex and sexuality, but a perversion of it. Lust is sin, sex is not.
Big words and a distinction without a difference. I think it would be more in keeping with Christianity to say that sex is kind of a nasty, necessary evil.
Or, if you put it on a scale of good, sex would score very low on it.
Whoever had sex they know it always involves lust.

Have you had sex with everyone so that you can speak for toate lume-everyone?

The marriage bed is undefiled.  Nothing nasty or evil about it.  If you think of it as a nasty evil, necessary or otherwise, check out the Gnostics.

Sexuality (within marriage) is not sinful, but it is a result of the Fall.
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« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2011, 09:05:45 PM »

Quote
Lust is not a part of sex and sexuality, but a perversion of it. Lust is sin, sex is not.
Big words and a distinction without a difference. I think it would be more in keeping with Christianity to say that sex is kind of a nasty, necessary evil.
Or, if you put it on a scale of good, sex would score very low on it.
Whoever had sex they know it always involves lust.

Have you had sex with everyone so that you can speak for toate lume-everyone?

The marriage bed is undefiled.  Nothing nasty or evil about it.  If you think of it as a nasty evil, necessary or otherwise, check out the Gnostics.

Sexuality (within marriage) is not sinful, but it is a result of the Fall.

Matthew 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that He who made them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder."

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in Our Image, after Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." 27 So God created man in His Own Image, in the Image of God he created him; male and female He created them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it;....

Genesis 2:18 Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him."... 21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; 22 and the rib which the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." 24 Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh. 25 And the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed.

3:11 Now the serpent was more subtle than any other wild creature that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God say..."

Since it precedes the Fall, it is not because of the Fall, just like the IC cannot be the result of the Incarnation as the conception preceeded it.
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« Reply #15 on: February 01, 2011, 09:16:39 PM »

Quote
Lust is not a part of sex and sexuality, but a perversion of it. Lust is sin, sex is not.
Big words and a distinction without a difference. I think it would be more in keeping with Christianity to say that sex is kind of a nasty, necessary evil.
Or, if you put it on a scale of good, sex would score very low on it.
Whoever had sex they know it always involves lust.

Have you had sex with everyone so that you can speak for toate lume-everyone?

The marriage bed is undefiled.  Nothing nasty or evil about it.  If you think of it as a nasty evil, necessary or otherwise, check out the Gnostics.

Sexuality (within marriage) is not sinful, but it is a result of the Fall.

Matthew 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that He who made them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder."

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in Our Image, after Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." 27 So God created man in His Own Image, in the Image of God he created him; male and female He created them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it;....

Genesis 2:18 Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him."... 21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; 22 and the rib which the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." 24 Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh. 25 And the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed.

3:11 Now the serpent was more subtle than any other wild creature that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God say..."

Since it precedes the Fall, it is not because of the Fall, just like the IC cannot be the result of the Incarnation as the conception preceeded it.

Saint Gregory of Nyssa, from On the Making of Man

Quote
Now the resurrection promises us nothing else than the restoration of the fallen to their ancient state; for the grace we look for is a certain return to the first life, bringing back again to Paradise him who was cast out from it. If then the life of those restored is closely related to that of the angels, it is clear that the life before the transgression was a kind of angelic life, and hence also our return to the ancient condition of our life is compared to the angels. Yet while, as has been said, there is no marriage among them, the armies of the angels are in countless myriads; for so Daniel declared in his visions: so, in the same way, if there had not come upon us as the result of sin a change for the worse, and removal from equality with the angels, neither should we have needed marriage that we might multiply; but whatever the mode of increase in the angelic nature is (unspeakable and inconceivable by human conjectures, except that it assuredly exists), it would have operated also in the case of men, who were "made a little lower than the angels ," to increase mankind to the measure determined by its Maker.

Saint John Chrysostom, from On Virginity


Quote
When he was created, Adam remained in paradise, and there was no question of marriage. He needed a helper and a helper was provided for him. But even then marriage did not seem to be necessary... Desire for sexual intercourse and conception and the pangs and childbirth and every form of corruption were alien to their soul.

Saint John of Damascus, from An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith


Quote
Carnal men abuse virginity , and the pleasure-loving bring forward the following verse in proof, Cursed be every one that raises not up seed in Israel. But we, made confident by God the Word that was made flesh of the Virgin, answer that virginity was implanted in man's nature from above and in the beginning. For man was formed of virgin soil. From Adam alone was Eve created. In Paradise virginity held sway. Indeed, Divine Scripture tells that both Adam and Eve were naked and were not ashamed. But after their transgression they knew that they were naked, and in their shame they sewed aprons for themselves. And when, after the transgression, Adam heard, dust you are and unto dust shall you return , when death entered into the world by reason of the transgression, then Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bare seed. So that to prevent the wearing out and destruction of the race by death, marriage was devised that the race of men may be preserved through the procreation of children.

But they will perhaps ask, what then is the meaning of “male and female,” and “Be fruitful and multiply?” In answer we shall say that “Be fruitful and multiply ”does not altogether refer to the multiplying by the marriage connection. For God had power to multiply the race also in different ways, if they kept the precept unbroken to the end. But God, Who knows all things before they have existence, knowing in His foreknowledge that they would fall into transgression in the future and be condemned to death, anticipated this and made “male and female,” and bade them “be fruitful and multiply.” Let us, then, proceed on our way and see the glories of virginity: and this also includes chastity.

Saint Maximus the Confessor, from Difficulty 41:


Quote
In order to bring about the union of everything with God as its cause, the human person begins first of all with its own division, and then, ascending through the intermediate steps by order and rank, it reaches the end of its high ascent, which passes through all things in search of unity, to God, in whom there is no division. It accomplishes this by shaking off every natural property of sexual differentiation into male and female by the most dispassionate relationship to divine virtue. This sexual differentiation clearly depends in no way on the primordial reason behind the divine purpose concerning human generation. Thus it is shown to be and becomes simply a human person in accordance with the divine purpose, no longer divided by being called male or female. It is no longer separated as it is now into parts, and it achieves this through the perfect knowledge, as I said, of its own logos, in accordance with what it is. Then, by a way of life proper and fitting to the Saints, the human person unites paradise and the inhabited world to make one earth, no longer is it experienced as divided according to the difference of its parts, but rather is gathered together, since no introduction at all of partition is allowed. Then, through a life identical in every way through virtue with that of the angels, so far as is possible to human beings, the human person unites heaven and earth, making the whole of creation perceived through the senses one with itself and undivided.

Another passage from the same work:
Quote
Indeed being in himself the universal union of all, he [Christ] has started with our division and become the perfect human being, having from us, on our account, and in accordance with our nature, everything that we are and lacking nothing, apart from sin (Heb 4:15), and having no need of the natural intercourse of marriage. In this way he showed, I think, that there was perhaps another way, foreknown by God, for human beings to increase, if the first human being had kept the commandment and had not cast himself down to an animal state by abusing his natural powers. Thus God-made-man has done away with the difference and division of nature into male and female, which human nature in no way needed for generation, as some hold, and without which it would have perhaps been possible

From Saint Gregory Palamas, Homily 43 "On the Gospel Reading for the Seventeenth Sunday of Matthew About the Canaanite Woman"


Quote
What is the starting point of our coming into the world? Is it not almost the same as for irrational animals? Actually it is worse, because the procreation of animals did not originate from sin, whereas in our case it was disobedience that brought in marriage. That is why we receive regeneration through holy baptism, which cuts away the veil which covers us from our conception. For although marriage, as a concession from God, is blameless, yet our nature still bears the tokens of blameworthy events. For that reason one of our holy theologians calls human procreation, "nocturnal, servile, and subject to passion", and before him David said, "I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps. 51:5)

(The "holy theologian" he quotes here is St. Gregory the Theologian, in his oration on Holy Baptism)

And another passage from Homily 14, "On the Annunciation"


Quote
God sent the archangel to a virgin and made her, who continued a virgin, His mother by means of a salutation alone. If He had been conceived from seed, He would not have been a new man, nor sinless, nor the Saviour of sinners. The flesh's impulse to reproduce is not subject to our minds, which God has appointed to govern us, and is not entirely without sin. That is why David said, "I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps. 51:5). So if the conception of God had been from seed, He would not have been a new man, nor the author of new life which will never grow old. If He were from the old stock and inherited its sin, He would not have been able to bear within Himself the fullness of the incorruptible Godhead or to make His flesh an inexhaustible source of sanctification, able to wash away even the defilement of our First Parents by its abundant power, and sufficient to sanctify all who came after them.

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« Reply #16 on: February 01, 2011, 09:33:44 PM »

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Desire for sexual intercourse and conception and the pangs and childbirth and every form of corruption were alien to their soul.

Why would bearing a child be a form of corruption though? Heck if Adam and Eve didn't "desire" one another, we wouldn't exist!
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« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2011, 10:07:26 PM »

Quotes I posted on another thread seem to also be relevant here...

"And how become they one flesh? As if you should take away the purest part of gold, and mingle it with other gold; so in truth here also the woman as it were receiving the richest part fused by pleasure, nourishes it and cherishes it, and withal contributing her own share, restores it back a Man." - St. John Chrysostom, Homily 12 on Colossians

"Let no one think however that herein we depreciate marriage as an institution. We are well aware that it is not a stranger to God's blessing. But since the common instincts of mankind can plead sufficiently on its behalf, instincts which prompt by a spontaneous bias to take the high road of marriage for the procreation of children" - St. Gregory Nyssa, On Virginity, 8

"For he who sins, in the degree in which he sins, becomes worse and is of less estimation than before; and he who has been overcome by base pleasures, has now licentiousness wholly attached to him. Wherefore he who commits fornication is wholly dead to God, and is abandoned by the Word as a dead body by the spirit. For what is holy, as is right, abhors to be polluted. But it is always lawful for the pure to touch the pure." - St. Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 2, 10

"Tell me not that the body is a cause of sin. For if the body is a cause of sin, why does not a dead body sin? Put a sword in the right hand of one just dead, and no murder takes place. Let beauties of every kind pass before a youth just dead, and no impure desire arises. Why? Because the body sins not of itself, but the soul through the body. The body is an instrument, and, as it were, a garment and robe of the soul: and if by this latter it be given over to fornication, it becomes defiled: but if it dwell with a holy soul, it becomes a temple of the Holy Ghost." - St. Cyril of Jerusalem, Catechetical Lectures, 4, 23

“Blame not natural desire. Natural desire was bestowed with a view to marriage; it was given with a view to the procreation of children, not with a view to adultery and corruption.” - St. John Chrysostom, Homily 2 on Ephesians

“For truly, truly this love is stronger than any tyranny; other desires may be strong, but this one never fades. This love is deeply planted within our nature. Unnoticed by us, it attracts the bodies of men and women to each other, because in the beginning woman came forth from man, and now from man and woman both men and women proceed.” - St. John Chrysostom, Homily 20 on Ephesians

“And while thou, fresh from the company of your own wife, darest not pray, although this is no blame at all; do you lift up your hands, fresh from reviling and insult, which brings after it no less than hell, before you have well cleansed yourself? And how do you not shudder? Tell me. Have you not heard Paul, saying, ‘Marriage is honorable, and the bed undefiled?’ (Heb. 13:4) But if on rising from the undefiled bed, you dare not draw near in prayer, how do you coming from the bed of the devil call on that awful and terrible name? For it is truly the devil's bed, to wallow in insults and reviling. And like some wicked adulterer, wrath dallies with us in great delight, casting into us deadly seed, and making us give birth to diabolical enmity, and doing all things in a way opposite to marriage. For whereas marriage causes the two to become one flesh, wrath severs into many parts them that were united, and cleaves and cuts in pieces the very soul.” - St. John Chrysostom, Homily 51 on Matthew
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« Reply #18 on: February 01, 2011, 11:05:20 PM »

Quote
Lust is not a part of sex and sexuality, but a perversion of it. Lust is sin, sex is not.
Big words and a distinction without a difference. I think it would be more in keeping with Christianity to say that sex is kind of a nasty, necessary evil.
Or, if you put it on a scale of good, sex would score very low on it.
Whoever had sex they know it always involves lust.

Have you had sex with everyone so that you can speak for toate lume-everyone?

The marriage bed is undefiled.  Nothing nasty or evil about it.  If you think of it as a nasty evil, necessary or otherwise, check out the Gnostics.

Sexuality (within marriage) is not sinful, but it is a result of the Fall.

Matthew 19:4 He answered, "Have you not read that He who made them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? 6 So they are no longer two but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let not man put asunder."

Genesis 1:26 Then God said, "Let us make man in Our Image, after Our likeness; and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps upon the earth." 27 So God created man in His Own Image, in the Image of God he created him; male and female He created them. 28 And God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth and subdue it;....

Genesis 2:18 Then the LORD God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him."... 21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and while he slept took one of his ribs and closed up its place with flesh; 22 and the rib which the LORD God had taken from the man he made into a woman and brought her to the man. 23 Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." 24 Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh. 25 And the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed.

3:11 Now the serpent was more subtle than any other wild creature that the LORD God had made. He said to the woman, "Did God say..."

Since it precedes the Fall, it is not because of the Fall, just like the IC cannot be the result of the Incarnation as the conception preceeded it.

Saint Gregory of Nyssa, from On the Making of Man
Quote
Now the resurrection promises us nothing else than the restoration of the fallen to their ancient state; for the grace we look for is a certain return to the first life, bringing back again to Paradise him who was cast out from it. If then the life of those restored is closely related to that of the angels, it is clear that the life before the transgression was a kind of angelic life, and hence also our return to the ancient condition of our life is compared to the angels. Yet while, as has been said, there is no marriage among them, the armies of the angels are in countless myriads; for so Daniel declared in his visions: so, in the same way, if there had not come upon us as the result of sin a change for the worse, and removal from equality with the angels, neither should we have needed marriage that we might multiply; but whatever the mode of increase in the angelic nature is (unspeakable and inconceivable by human conjectures, except that it assuredly exists), it would have operated also in the case of men, who were "made a little lower than the angels ," to increase mankind to the measure determined by its Maker.
So God created man in His Own Image, in the Image of God he created him; male and female He created them. God, from Genesis.

Have you not read that He who made them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? God, according to St. Matthew.

Hebrews 1:6 And again, when he brings the first-born into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him."...14 Are they not all ministering spirits sent forth to serve, for the sake of those who are to obtain salvation?...2:5 For it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking. 6 It has been testified somewhere, "What is man that thou art mindful of him, or the son of man, that thou carest for him? 7 Thou didst make him for a little while lower than the angels, thou hast crowned him with glory and honor, 8 putting everything in subjection under his feet." God, Hebrews.

Where has God revealed that angels were made in His Image and Likeness?  God specifically says that He created man so, and He specifically says that He made man male and female from the beginning.  For this reason, i.e. His creation of man in His Image and Likeness as male and female-i.e. with gender and sex.

Where has God revealed that angels multiply? Not only is no such thing revealed (though I've seen it claimed that Origen claimed that they multiply like flies, but have not seen the actual passage, to see if that is connected to his anathematized views), it is suggested if not stated outright that angels are created directly by God, and do not multiply.  If our mode of increase were intended to be like a supposed one of the angels, then we would be increased in the Kingdom of Heaven. But the proof text of the viewpoint you are defending, "(Mat. 22:30) For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven," tells us the direct opposite (btw, a few verses earlier it the chapter starts "1 And again Jesus spoke to them in parables, saying, 2 "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who gave a marriage feast for his son,..."). Yet at their Creation in Paradise, God gives them the first commandment "Be fruitful and multiply."

Hebrews 2:16 For surely it is not with angels that He is concerned but with the descendants of Abraham.

Saint John Chrysostom, from On Virginity
Quote
When he was created, Adam remained in paradise, and there was no question of marriage. He needed a helper and a helper was provided for him. But even then marriage did not seem to be necessary... Desire for sexual intercourse and conception and the pangs and childbirth and every form of corruption were alien to their soul.
"Have you not read that He who made them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? God, according to St. Matthew.

Check the number of references to Adam and Eve in Paradise before the Fall in the rite of Blessing a Marriage. Gen. 2: 23 Then the man said, "This at last is bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man." 24 Therefore a man leaves his father and his mother and cleaves to his wife, and they become one flesh. 25 And the man and his wife were both naked, and were not ashamed.

Indeed there can be no question of marriage: God explicitely institutes it in Paradise.

Saint John of Damascus, from An Exact Exposition of the Orthodox Faith
Quote
Carnal men abuse virginity , and the pleasure-loving bring forward the following verse in proof, Cursed be every one that raises not up seed in Israel. But we, made confident by God the Word that was made flesh of the Virgin, answer that virginity was implanted in man's nature from above and in the beginning. For man was formed of virgin soil. From Adam alone was Eve created. In Paradise virginity held sway. Indeed, Divine Scripture tells that both Adam and Eve were naked and were not ashamed. But after their transgression they knew that they were naked, and in their shame they sewed aprons for themselves. And when, after the transgression, Adam heard, dust you are and unto dust shall you return , when death entered into the world by reason of the transgression, then Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bare seed. So that to prevent the wearing out and destruction of the race by death, marriage was devised that the race of men may be preserved through the procreation of children.
Divine Scripture tells that Adam heard "Be fruitful and multiply" and exclaimed "bone of my bone and flesh of my flesh" before he heard "dust you are," and "from the beginning Male and Female He created them...and for that reason the two become one flesh."

Quote
But they will perhaps ask, what then is the meaning of “male and female,” and “Be fruitful and multiply?” In answer we shall say that “Be fruitful and multiply ”does not altogether refer to the multiplying by the marriage connection. For God had power to multiply the race also in different ways, if they kept the precept unbroken to the end. But God, Who knows all things before they have existence, knowing in His foreknowledge that they would fall into transgression in the future and be condemned to death, anticipated this and made “male and female,” and bade them “be fruitful and multiply.” Let us, then, proceed on our way and see the glories of virginity: and this also includes chastity.
Divine Scripture tells us that God said in the Flesh "Have you not read that He who made them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, 'For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh'? God had the power to multiply the race also in different ways, whether they kept the precept or broke it.  As Divine Scripture tells us, man being "male and female" is no more an afterthought than being Father, Son and Spirit is of Hin in whose Image and Likeness man was created male and female.

St. John give follows your quote with a number of examples,which unfortunately don't establish his argument.
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf209.iii.iv.iv.xxiv.html
Worse, he follows this with a discussion on circumscision, whose logic contradicts what he just said on virginity, if he is taken as being presented here (a common misuse).  St. John, however, indicates that he is defending monasticism: his excusus on marriage is secondary to that point. He is not developing, nor presenting, a theology of marriage.

Quote
Saint Maximus the Confessor, from Difficulty 41:
Quote
In order to bring about the union of everything with God as its cause, the human person begins first of all with its own division, and then, ascending through the intermediate steps by order and rank, it reaches the end of its high ascent, which passes through all things in search of unity, to God, in whom there is no division. It accomplishes this by shaking off every natural property of sexual differentiation into male and female by the most dispassionate relationship to divine virtue. This sexual differentiation clearly depends in no way on the primordial reason behind the divine purpose concerning human generation. Thus it is shown to be and becomes simply a human person in accordance with the divine purpose, no longer divided by being called male or female. It is no longer separated as it is now into parts, and it achieves this through the perfect knowledge, as I said, of its own logos, in accordance with what it is. Then, by a way of life proper and fitting to the Saints, the human person unites paradise and the inhabited world to make one earth, no longer is it experienced as divided according to the difference of its parts, but rather is gathered together, since no introduction at all of partition is allowed. Then, through a life identical in every way through virtue with that of the angels, so far as is possible to human beings, the human person unites heaven and earth, making the whole of creation perceived through the senses one with itself and undivided.

Another passage from the same work:
Quote
Indeed being in himself the universal union of all, he [Christ] has started with our division and become the perfect human being, having from us, on our account, and in accordance with our nature, everything that we are and lacking nothing, apart from sin (Heb 4:15), and having no need of the natural intercourse of marriage. In this way he showed, I think, that there was perhaps another way, foreknown by God, for human beings to increase, if the first human being had kept the commandment and had not cast himself down to an animal state by abusing his natural powers. Thus God-made-man has done away with the difference and division of nature into male and female, which human nature in no way needed for generation, as some hold, and without which it would have perhaps been possible
Emphasis on the "I think."

If it were as is being presented, then we should have no reason to bar ordination or even consecration of nuns as priests and bishops. We can abolish male and female as much as we can abolish the Father, Son and Spirt of the One Godhead in Whose Image and Likeness the male and female were created.

Quote
From Saint Gregory Palamas, Homily 43 "On the Gospel Reading for the Seventeenth Sunday of Matthew About the Canaanite Woman"
Quote
What is the starting point of our coming into the world? Is it not almost the same as for irrational animals? Actually it is worse, because the procreation of animals did not originate from sin, whereas in our case it was disobedience that brought in marriage. That is why we receive regeneration through holy baptism, which cuts away the veil which covers us from our conception. For although marriage, as a concession from God, is blameless, yet our nature still bears the tokens of blameworthy events. For that reason one of our holy theologians calls human procreation, "nocturnal, servile, and subject to passion", and before him David said, "I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps. 51:5)
Then the Church should have numbered the tonsuring of monks, and not marriage, among the seven great Holy Mysteries. And it would indicate that not only in sin did our mothers conceive and shapen us in inquity, but God must have fashioned and created us in inquity and sin, as He tells us He created us male and female in His Image and Likeness, and for that reason God created woman out of the side of man's flesh and make the two one flesh, as the Three Persons are One Essence.  Further, we make God a sinner, for if human procreation is "nocturnal, servile, and subject to passion," shapens in iniquity and sin, what else can we say of He who makes the two one flesh to make it possible?


(The "holy theologian" he quotes here is St. Gregory the Theologian, in his oration on Holy Baptism)

And another passage from Homily 14, "On the Annunciation"


Quote
God sent the archangel to a virgin and made her, who continued a virgin, His mother by means of a salutation alone. If He had been conceived from seed, He would not have been a new man, nor sinless, nor the Saviour of sinners. The flesh's impulse to reproduce is not subject to our minds, which God has appointed to govern us, and is not entirely without sin. That is why David said, "I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps. 51:5). So if the conception of God had been from seed, He would not have been a new man, nor the author of new life which will never grow old. If He were from the old stock and inherited its sin, He would not have been able to bear within Himself the fullness of the incorruptible Godhead or to make His flesh an inexhaustible source of sanctification, able to wash away even the defilement of our First Parents by its abundant power, and sufficient to sanctify all who came after them.
seed, despite what some Fathers said about it, does not transmit ancestral sin.

We can epitomize it as those who think St. John of Kronstadt should be praised for his marriage, and those who hold that he was glorified in spite of it.
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« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2011, 02:05:41 PM »

Quote
Lust is not a part of sex and sexuality, but a perversion of it. Lust is sin, sex is not.
Big words and a distinction without a difference. I think it would be more in keeping with Christianity to say that sex is kind of a nasty, necessary evil.
Or, if you put it on a scale of good, sex would score very low on it.
Whoever had sex they know it always involves lust.

Have you had sex with everyone so that you can speak for toate lume-everyone?

The marriage bed is undefiled.  Nothing nasty or evil about it.  If you think of it as a nasty evil, necessary or otherwise, check out the Gnostics.

Sexuality (within marriage) is not sinful, but it is a result of the Fall.
Sexuality is much more than just sexual relations, though. It's about everything that makes us male and female.
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« Reply #20 on: February 02, 2011, 05:56:23 PM »

Sexuality is simply bodily energetic-force, expressed in different ways. When this bodily energetic-force is focused on the genitals only, then that energy becomes sexual lust. All humans have this energy. Jesus (God the Son in humanity) would know this energy in its most positive form.
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« Reply #21 on: February 02, 2011, 07:35:29 PM »

Sexuality is simply bodily energetic-force, expressed in different ways. When this bodily energetic-force is focused on the genitals only, then that energy becomes sexual lust. All humans have this energy. Jesus (God the Son in humanity) would know this energy in its most positive form.

how did Christ focus this energy?
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« Reply #22 on: February 02, 2011, 07:41:15 PM »

Sexuality is simply bodily energetic-force, expressed in different ways. When this bodily energetic-force is focused on the genitals only, then that energy becomes sexual lust. All humans have this energy. Jesus (God the Son in humanity) would know this energy in its most positive form.

how did Christ focus this energy?
For us regular Joes, the energy becomes restricted in certain areas, causing tension, and the desire for the release of that tension (thus, the desire to 'use' someone simply as a way to release the energetic tension). But for Jesus, the energy circulates throughout the body, never becoming restricted to one area, but radiating as Love of the whole world.

Or at least that's my theory. Grin
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« Reply #23 on: February 02, 2011, 07:43:29 PM »

Sexuality is simply bodily energetic-force, expressed in different ways. When this bodily energetic-force is focused on the genitals only, then that energy becomes sexual lust. All humans have this energy. Jesus (God the Son in humanity) would know this energy in its most positive form.
aa
Ojas is taught by Hindus, who don't know the true makeup of man.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ojas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abstinence#Hinduism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmacharya
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« Reply #24 on: February 02, 2011, 07:44:34 PM »

Sexuality is simply bodily energetic-force, expressed in different ways. When this bodily energetic-force is focused on the genitals only, then that energy becomes sexual lust. All humans have this energy. Jesus (God the Son in humanity) would know this energy in its most positive form.
aa
Ojas is taught by Hindus, who don't know the true makeup of man.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ojas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abstinence#Hinduism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmacharya
The Hindus have their own hang-ups. That doesn't exclude the reality of bodily energies that all humans experience.
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« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2011, 07:53:41 PM »

Sexuality is simply bodily energetic-force, expressed in different ways. When this bodily energetic-force is focused on the genitals only, then that energy becomes sexual lust. All humans have this energy. Jesus (God the Son in humanity) would know this energy in its most positive form.
aa
Ojas is taught by Hindus, who don't know the true makeup of man.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ojas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abstinence#Hinduism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmacharya

Took the links right out of my fingers.

I was going to suggest the post for the weirdest of the month.
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« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2011, 08:02:01 PM »

Sexuality is simply bodily energetic-force, expressed in different ways. When this bodily energetic-force is focused on the genitals only, then that energy becomes sexual lust. All humans have this energy. Jesus (God the Son in humanity) would know this energy in its most positive form.

That doesn't sound like a very Orthodox understanding of the nature of lust.
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« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2011, 08:03:48 PM »

Sexuality is simply bodily energetic-force, expressed in different ways. When this bodily energetic-force is focused on the genitals only, then that energy becomes sexual lust. All humans have this energy. Jesus (God the Son in humanity) would know this energy in its most positive form.

That doesn't sound like a very Orthodox understanding of the nature of lust.
I clarified it in a subsequent post.
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« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2011, 08:04:46 PM »

Sexuality is simply bodily energetic-force, expressed in different ways. When this bodily energetic-force is focused on the genitals only, then that energy becomes sexual lust. All humans have this energy. Jesus (God the Son in humanity) would know this energy in its most positive form.
aa
Ojas is taught by Hindus, who don't know the true makeup of man.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ojas
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexual_abstinence#Hinduism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahmacharya
The Hindus have their own hang-ups. That doesn't exclude the reality of bodily energies that all humans experience.
Since Hindu anthropology ignores the make up of man, it doesn't have universal application.
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« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2011, 08:06:47 PM »

Next up: Wilhelm Reich.

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« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2011, 08:18:59 PM »

Blasphemous language removed per poster request  -PtA
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« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2011, 08:24:10 PM »

Blasphemous language removed per poster request  -PtA

Like most men you probably aren't listening very closely to what she is saying and spacing out on the rest:

"Why hast Thou forsaken me?"
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« Reply #32 on: February 03, 2011, 01:26:38 AM »

Sorry I couldn't help myself..
Yes you could.
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« Reply #33 on: February 03, 2011, 02:04:24 AM »

Sorry I couldn't help myself..
Yes you could.

And yes you should have
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=exodus%2020:7&version=KJV
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Proverbs 22:7
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« Reply #34 on: February 03, 2011, 03:29:07 AM »

My terrible sense of humor got the best of me. Forgive me.
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“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
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« Reply #35 on: February 03, 2011, 04:15:43 AM »

sorry for scolding you in public.
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Proverbs 22:7
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