OrthodoxChristianity.net
July 28, 2014, 12:24:04 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Did Jesus the God die on the cross?  (Read 2975 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
WUnland
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Traditional Roman Catholic
Jurisdiction: Japan / Bayern
Posts: 44


« on: February 01, 2011, 03:22:17 AM »

Hello,

As a Latin rite Catholic my Church holds that Jesus died as both man and God on the cross.  I have a bit of trouble getting my head around GOD dying.  Perhaps I am not seeing death as it is interpreted with reference to God, as dying is really NOT ceasing to exist in the spiritual realm, only the physical. That said this is the origin of the "God Killers" charge made against the Jews during various periods in my Church's history. Yes the death and resurrection of Jesus the man, but did God "die" too, and was God "resurrected"?  I hope this possibly silly question makes sense.

In any case what is the Orthodox teaching on the death of the God nature of Jesus Christ?

Thank you,
William Unland
Logged
Alveus Lacuna
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA (Old Calendar)
Posts: 6,789



« Reply #1 on: February 01, 2011, 03:27:21 AM »

*Waits for our resident Nestorian Rafa to make a guest appearance*
Logged
jnorm888
Jnorm
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,516


Icon and Cross (international space station)


WWW
« Reply #2 on: February 01, 2011, 03:39:51 AM »

Hello,

As a Latin rite Catholic my Church holds that Jesus died as both man and God on the cross.  I have a bit of trouble getting my head around GOD dying.  Perhaps I am not seeing death as it is interpreted with reference to God, as dying is really NOT ceasing to exist in the spiritual realm, only the physical. That said this is the origin of the "God Killers" charge made against the Jews during various periods in my Church's history. Yes the death and resurrection of Jesus the man, but did God "die" too, and was God "resurrected"?  I hope this possibly silly question makes sense.

In any case what is the Orthodox teaching on the death of the God nature of Jesus Christ?

Thank you,
William Unland

God Incarnate died on the Cross, and God Incarnate rose from the dead.

When you(WUnland) die. Will your spirit immediately die too? If you say no, then that means your spirit will still be living eventhough your body will be in the grave decaying. Is your spirit part of the human nature? If you say yes, then even an aspect of your human nature will still be living.

 Jesus went to Hades to set the captives free when He was in the grave for 3 days. On the third day He rose from the dead, and so both sin and death were destroyed through Him.


In saying this, what I am trying to say is...................death doesn't = nonexistence. Where are the Saints? They still exist.........right? If you say yes, then death doesn't = nonexistence.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 03:59:56 AM by jnorm888 » Logged

"loving one's enemies does not mean loving wickedness, ungodliness, adultery, or theft. Rather, it means loving the theif, the ungodly, and the adulterer." Clement of Alexandria 195 A.D.

http://ancientchristiandefender.blogspot.com/
NicholasMyra
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian/Greek
Posts: 5,766


Avowed denominationalist


« Reply #3 on: February 01, 2011, 03:43:19 AM »

Unus ex Trinitate passus est.

One of the Trinity suffered in the flesh.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 03:43:42 AM by NicholasMyra » Logged

Quote from: Orthonorm
if Christ does and says x. And someone else does and says not x and you are ever in doubt, follow Christ.

"Simply put, if you’re not willing to take what is dearest to you, whether plans or people, and kiss it goodbye, you can’t be my disciple."
Theophilos78
Warned
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: pro-Israeli Zionist Apostolic Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Adonai Yeshua
Posts: 2,043



« Reply #4 on: February 01, 2011, 03:43:53 AM »

Hello,

As a Latin rite Catholic my Church holds that Jesus died as both man and God on the cross.  I have a bit of trouble getting my head around GOD dying.  Perhaps I am not seeing death as it is interpreted with reference to God, as dying is really NOT ceasing to exist in the spiritual realm, only the physical. That said this is the origin of the "God Killers" charge made against the Jews during various periods in my Church's history. Yes the death and resurrection of Jesus the man, but did God "die" too, and was God "resurrected"?  I hope this possibly silly question makes sense.

In any case what is the Orthodox teaching on the death of the God nature of Jesus Christ?

Thank you,
William Unland

Since the subject of Jesus' human actions (actions related to His human nature) was GOD, it is possible to say that God suffered and died on the cross. However, when we say that God suffered and died, we mean "God in human form" did these actions. God died and rose through His humanity.
Logged

Longing for Heavenly Jerusalem
Shiny
Site Supporter
Muted
Toumarches
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Groucho Marxist
Jurisdiction: Dahntahn Stoop Haus
Posts: 13,267


Paint It Red


« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2011, 07:14:57 AM »

Just a side bit, Christ did get crucified on an actual cross right? Not just a pole?
Logged

“There is your brother, naked, crying, and you stand there confused over the choice of an attractive floor covering.”

– St. Ambrose of Milan
JLatimer
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 1,202



« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2011, 09:56:17 AM »

Just a side bit, Christ did get crucified on an actual cross right? Not just a pole?

Universal Christian tradition seems pretty unanimous on the form of the cross: +
Logged

1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,529


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #7 on: February 01, 2011, 10:27:53 AM »

*Waits for our resident Nestorian Rafa to make a guest appearance*
Don't invite him.
Logged
Benjamin the Red
Recovering Calvinist
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Church in America, Diocese of Dallas and the South ||| American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Diocese
Posts: 1,601


Have mercy on me, O God, have mercy on me.


« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2011, 11:54:26 AM »

Fathers, please correct me when I butcher this from memory, but there is an Orthodox prayer in the Liturgy which says:

"In the body in the grave, as God at the Right Hand, in the spirit in Hell..."

 I can't remember the full prayer right now, and surely butchered what I tried to quote, unfortunately.  This prayer, when recited correctly, essentially teaches the mystery of Christ's death. Truly Jesus Christ was one human person who was both fully God and fully man. Therefore, He died. His body ceased to function, His spirit entered the realm of the dead. However, He remains God, ever-present and filling all things, including dwelling in perfect communion with the Trinity. What a perplexing mystery of the Incarnation!
Logged

"Hades is not a place, no, but a state of the soul. It begins here on earth. Just so, paradise begins in the soul of a man here in the earthly life. Here we already have contact with the divine..." -St. John, Wonderworker of Shanghai and San Francisco, Homily On the Sunday of Orthodoxy
JLatimer
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 1,202



« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2011, 12:30:19 PM »

Fathers, please correct me when I butcher this from memory, but there is an Orthodox prayer in the Liturgy which says:

"In the body in the grave, as God at the Right Hand, in the spirit in Hell..."

 I can't remember the full prayer right now, and surely butchered what I tried to quote, unfortunately.  This prayer, when recited correctly, essentially teaches the mystery of Christ's death. Truly Jesus Christ was one human person who was both fully God and fully man. Therefore, He died. His body ceased to function, His spirit entered the realm of the dead. However, He remains God, ever-present and filling all things, including dwelling in perfect communion with the Trinity. What a perplexing mystery of the Incarnation!

It comes at the end of the Great Entrance:

In the grave with the body, but in hades with the soul as God; in paradise with the thief, and on the throne with the Father and the Spirit wast thou, O Christ, filling all things, thyself uncircumscribed.

In the grave bodily; in hades with Thy soul, though Thou wast God; in Paradise with the thief; and on the Throne with the Father and the Spirit was Thou Who fillest all things, O Christ the Uncircumscribable
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 12:38:59 PM by JLatimer » Logged

1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,140


Truth, Justice, and the American way!


« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2011, 01:05:54 PM »

Hello,

As a Latin rite Catholic my Church holds that Jesus died as both man and God on the cross.  I have a bit of trouble getting my head around GOD dying.  Perhaps I am not seeing death as it is interpreted with reference to God, as dying is really NOT ceasing to exist in the spiritual realm, only the physical. That said this is the origin of the "God Killers" charge made against the Jews during various periods in my Church's history. Yes the death and resurrection of Jesus the man, but did God "die" too, and was God "resurrected"?  I hope this possibly silly question makes sense.

In any case what is the Orthodox teaching on the death of the God nature of Jesus Christ?

Thank you,
William Unland
In the faiths issues board, Catholics are allowed to clarify when some one makes a mistake with regard to their understanding of Catholicism. In that spirit, I offer the following.
Before we can understand how God died on the cross, we need to understand the incarnation itself. Catholics believe that Jesus Christ is both fully God and fully man, and yet he is one person. This is not to be interpreted in some contradictory fashion but we understand it as mean that the one eternal and divine person, God the Son, existed from all eternity as God, in communion with the other two persons of the Blessed Trinity. At a particular point in history (around 0 A.d.), God the Son assumed a complete human nature along side his Divine nature. That is how there is one person, God the Son/Jesus, with two natures.
Now because Jesus is God, everything that he ever did was done by by God (specifically God the Son). This would include his conception, birth, death, resurrection, ascension, etc. So it is quite proper to say that God died on the cross for our sins.
This can be a stumbling block for many, because they will ask the question, "How can God die?" Well, let 's first understand what death is. It is nothing more than the separation of the soul from the Body. It is true that this can only be done by some one with a human nature, because one must have both a soul and a body for this separation to occur. It is also true, that death does not the mean that one ceases to exist. Again, it is just the separation of the soul from body. This is quite possible for the God-man, Jesus Christ, because in his human nature, his soul was able to be separated from his body. Again, this does mean that he ceased to exist for a time, only that is body and soul were not united for the period in which he was dead. In his Divine Nature, he was still ruling the universe as the Almighty and Living God, while in his human nature he was experiencing the separation of the soul from the body that is death.
Some might argue then that because the death did not come about through his Divine nature, then it is not proper to say that God died. But, we have to remember that Jesus Christ is one person, not two, and we don't say that a nature dies. We say that a person dies. While Christ's divine nature did not die, the person, Jesus Christ, who is God, did die, and so we say that God died for our sins.
Logged

Note Papist's influence from the tyrannical monarchism of traditional papism .
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2011, 03:41:51 PM »

Hello,

As a Latin rite Catholic my Church holds that Jesus died as both man and God on the cross.  I have a bit of trouble getting my head around GOD dying.  Perhaps I am not seeing death as it is interpreted with reference to God, as dying is really NOT ceasing to exist in the spiritual realm, only the physical. That said this is the origin of the "God Killers" charge made against the Jews during various periods in my Church's history. Yes the death and resurrection of Jesus the man, but did God "die" too, and was God "resurrected"?  I hope this possibly silly question makes sense.

In any case what is the Orthodox teaching on the death of the God nature of Jesus Christ?

Thank you,
William Unland

You can't distinguish between "Jesus the man" and "God" like that.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Melodist
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: The Faith That Established The Universe
Jurisdiction: AOANA
Posts: 2,523



« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2011, 06:14:06 PM »

A hymn that we sing every sunday

Only-Begotten Son and immortal Word of God; Who for our salvation willed to become incarnate of the holy Theotokos and Ever–Virgin Mary; Who without change became man and was crucified; Who is one of the Holy Trinity; glorified with the Father and the Holy Spirit; O Christ our God, trampling down death by death, save us!

I hope this answers your question.
Logged

And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

Made Perfect in Weakness - Latest Post: The Son of God
sainthieu
Abstractor of the Quintessence
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 621


« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2011, 09:58:45 AM »

Look at it this way: If He didn't, then it was all just a charade, right? So, yes, God in His incarnate form as a human being, Jesus Christ, actually died. Christ was also resurrected, as we too will one day be--God willing.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 10:01:00 AM by sainthieu » Logged
Justin Kissel
Formerly Asteriktos
Protospatharios
****************
Offline Offline

Faith: refuse
Posts: 29,311


« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2011, 10:01:28 AM »

"We needed an Incarnate God, a God put to death, that we might live. We were put to death together with Him, that we might be cleansed; we rose again with Him because we were put to death with Him; we were glorified with Him, because we rose again with Him." - St. Gregory the Theologian, Oration 45, 28
Logged
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,287


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #15 on: February 02, 2011, 01:39:19 PM »

As jnorm888 implies, the question of whether God "died" is really not controversial, because "death" is simply the continuing existence of the spirit when the body ceases to function. If Jesus died, then that would simply mean that the God-nature and human-nature of Jesus continued to exist, in spirit, while the body ceased to function. So, for all practical purposes, the God-nature and human-nature of Jesus simply went from one state of existence to another state of existence.

I think the real question behind the "death" question is whether both the God-nature and human-nature of Jesus experienced pain and suffering, or whether only the human-nature did so.
« Last Edit: February 02, 2011, 01:39:47 PM by Jetavan » Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
PeterTheAleut
The Right Blowhard Peter the Furtive of Yetts O'Muckhart
Section Moderator
Protospatharios
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 31,529


Lord, have mercy on the Christians in Mosul!


« Reply #16 on: February 02, 2011, 01:58:29 PM »

As jnorm888 implies, the question of whether God "died" is really not controversial, because "death" is simply the continuing existence of the spirit when the body ceases to function. If Jesus died, then that would simply mean that the God-nature and human-nature of Jesus continued to exist, in spirit, while the body ceased to function. So, for all practical purposes, the God-nature and human-nature of Jesus simply went from one state of existence to another state of existence.

I think the real question behind the "death" question is whether both the God-nature and human-nature of Jesus experienced pain and suffering, or whether only the human-nature did so.
Natures don't suffer, persons do. Therefore, it is more correct to say that the Person who is both God and Man suffered. In this way God did indeed experience pain and suffering.
Logged
Jetavan
Most Humble Servant of Pan-Vespuccian and Holocenic Hominids
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Christic
Jurisdiction: Dixie
Posts: 6,287


Barlaam and Josaphat


WWW
« Reply #17 on: February 02, 2011, 02:08:11 PM »

As jnorm888 implies, the question of whether God "died" is really not controversial, because "death" is simply the continuing existence of the spirit when the body ceases to function. If Jesus died, then that would simply mean that the God-nature and human-nature of Jesus continued to exist, in spirit, while the body ceased to function. So, for all practical purposes, the God-nature and human-nature of Jesus simply went from one state of existence to another state of existence.

I think the real question behind the "death" question is whether both the God-nature and human-nature of Jesus experienced pain and suffering, or whether only the human-nature did so.
Natures don't suffer, persons do. Therefore, it is more correct to say that the Person who is both God and Man suffered. In this way God did indeed experience pain and suffering.
Is the pain/suffering of the Person who is sinless, different from the pain/suffering of those who sin?
Logged

If you will, you can become all flame.
Extra caritatem nulla salus.
In order to become whole, take the "I" out of "holiness".
सर्वभूतहित
Ἄνω σχῶμεν τὰς καρδίας
"Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is." -- Mohandas Gandhi
Y dduw bo'r diolch.
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #18 on: February 02, 2011, 03:07:58 PM »

As jnorm888 implies, the question of whether God "died" is really not controversial, because "death" is simply the continuing existence of the spirit when the body ceases to function. If Jesus died, then that would simply mean that the God-nature and human-nature of Jesus continued to exist, in spirit, while the body ceased to function. So, for all practical purposes, the God-nature and human-nature of Jesus simply went from one state of existence to another state of existence.

I think the real question behind the "death" question is whether both the God-nature and human-nature of Jesus experienced pain and suffering, or whether only the human-nature did so.
Natures don't suffer, persons do. Therefore, it is more correct to say that the Person who is both God and Man suffered. In this way God did indeed experience pain and suffering.

I concur. It was not the Godhead of the Logos that suffered, but rather simply the hypostasis of the Logos via His humanity.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
ipm
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Serbian Eastern Orthodox
Posts: 119


« Reply #19 on: February 02, 2011, 11:25:53 PM »

My understanding is that He did die, a real actual biological death. A death just like the one we all live to die. Otherwise how could the rest of it all work for us? His defeat of death by death is the point, no?
Logged
genesisone
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antioch
Posts: 2,453



« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2011, 07:52:22 PM »

From the Praises at Orthros (fourth tone):
Thou didst suffer crucifixion and death in the flesh, O Thou who in thy divinity suffereth not; Thou didst rise from the dead granting mankind immortality for Thou alone art almighty.
Logged
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2011, 11:25:42 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Natures don't suffer, persons do. Therefore, it is more correct to say that the Person who is both God and Man suffered. In this way God did indeed experience pain and suffering.

I disagree. Nature is part of a person, it is our human nature which experiences our human form of mortality and pain and fear, which is precisely why we associate these things with human nature.  It is not that the nature experiences these things separate or exclusively, but at the same time, there is not necessarily any kind of abstract or conceptual nature.  Nature is part of the hypostatic form of things, being they living or inanimate objects.

In Tewahedo theological terms and patristic writings, there can be no nature without a manifesting hypostasis, and there can be no hypostasis without a concurring nature.  They are completely and fundamentally interrelated.  The Divine Nature of the Godhead, thus has Divine Hypostasis which is His manifested form, which by nature is immaterial, immortal, and life-giving, but none-the-less is not purely a nature, but is a nature manifested in a hypostatic form.  It is essentially function (nature) and form (manifestation) and in Ge'ez these terms are Bahray (Nature) and Akal (Body/Person/Hypostasis).  All Akalat (hypostases) are in according to their respective bahrayat (natures), just as a table (the akal, physical thing) is the manifested form of an object whose nature is to be used to place things on.  The nature defines the form but also the nature is defined by the form.  You create a table in the physical form it exists in precisely to be used to put things on, which is its subsequent nature, but at the same time, you can only put things on the form of a table because by nature that is how it works.  If the table were vertically inclined rather than horizontally, which would be a different form, it would not follow its nature and would then have a different nature other than to put things on, and would then no longer be a table.

The Godhead exists both as a Divine Nature (Bahray) manifested into a Divine Hypostasis (Akal), because there simply can not be in Ge'ez theology or ontology an abstract nature, it must exist in some form, not necessarily physical by our definitions, but none-the-less in some kind of actual manifestation, not purely abstract or conceptual.  That being said, a nature is not abstract, but connected deeply with its form, and so if the Divine nature as indeed manifested through the Union in the Incarnated Hypostatic Person of Jesus Christ, who did die, then in some mysterious way the Divine was not exempt from the experience.  It is wrong say the Godhead died in the literal sense of stopping existence (or in the terms of the table, changed the Divine Nature because of the Death and changing of the Hypostatic Form) but to say the Godhead was separate from this experience in an abstract way borders on Nestorianism.

Stay blessed,
habte selassie

« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 11:31:36 PM by HabteSelassie » Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
JLatimer
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ROCOR
Posts: 1,202



« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2011, 03:26:42 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Natures don't suffer, persons do. Therefore, it is more correct to say that the Person who is both God and Man suffered. In this way God did indeed experience pain and suffering.

I disagree. Nature is part of a person, it is our human nature which experiences our human form of mortality and pain and fear, which is precisely why we associate these things with human nature.  It is not that the nature experiences these things separate or exclusively, but at the same time, there is not necessarily any kind of abstract or conceptual nature.  Nature is part of the hypostatic form of things, being they living or inanimate objects.

In Tewahedo theological terms and patristic writings, there can be no nature without a manifesting hypostasis, and there can be no hypostasis without a concurring nature.  They are completely and fundamentally interrelated.  The Divine Nature of the Godhead, thus has Divine Hypostasis which is His manifested form, which by nature is immaterial, immortal, and life-giving, but none-the-less is not purely a nature, but is a nature manifested in a hypostatic form.  It is essentially function (nature) and form (manifestation) and in Ge'ez these terms are Bahray (Nature) and Akal (Body/Person/Hypostasis).  All Akalat (hypostases) are in according to their respective bahrayat (natures), just as a table (the akal, physical thing) is the manifested form of an object whose nature is to be used to place things on.  The nature defines the form but also the nature is defined by the form.  You create a table in the physical form it exists in precisely to be used to put things on, which is its subsequent nature, but at the same time, you can only put things on the form of a table because by nature that is how it works.  If the table were vertically inclined rather than horizontally, which would be a different form, it would not follow its nature and would then have a different nature other than to put things on, and would then no longer be a table.

The Godhead exists both as a Divine Nature (Bahray) manifested into a Divine Hypostasis (Akal), because there simply can not be in Ge'ez theology or ontology an abstract nature, it must exist in some form, not necessarily physical by our definitions, but none-the-less in some kind of actual manifestation, not purely abstract or conceptual.  That being said, a nature is not abstract, but connected deeply with its form, and so if the Divine nature as indeed manifested through the Union in the Incarnated Hypostatic Person of Jesus Christ, who did die, then in some mysterious way the Divine was not exempt from the experience.  It is wrong say the Godhead died in the literal sense of stopping existence (or in the terms of the table, changed the Divine Nature because of the Death and changing of the Hypostatic Form) but to say the Godhead was separate from this experience in an abstract way borders on Nestorianism.

Stay blessed,
habte selassie



Yes, there is no nature without hypostasis and vice versa; however, I do not follow that nature is "part" of person/hypostasis. Also, I don't see how a nature experiences anything. Experience requires a subject, which is the hypostasis, not the nature. Nature might define the experience, but the what or who doing the experiencing is always the hypostasis, as I see it.

Finally, I'm not sure about this language of "manifestation". Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but it sounds a little like you are saying the real deepest ground is the nature (phusis/ousia - I don't know Ge'ez so I'll stick to Greek - sorry), of which the hypostasis is a 'showing forth'. That doesn't sound right to me.

Interested to hear more about what you mean, or to hear the comments of others, whether Chalcedonian or non-Chalcedonian, on this subject.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 03:35:01 PM by JLatimer » Logged

1 Samuel 25:22 (KJV)
So and more also do God unto the enemies of David, if I leave of all that pertain to him by the morning light any that pisseth against the wall.
HabteSelassie
Ises and I-ity
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Oriental Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church
Posts: 3,332



« Reply #23 on: February 07, 2011, 01:31:29 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
Quote
Yes, there is no nature without hypostasis and vice versa; however, I do not follow that nature is "part" of person/hypostasis. Also, I don't see how a nature experiences anything. Experience requires a subject, which is the hypostasis, not the nature. Nature might define the experience, but the what or who doing the experiencing is always the hypostasis, as I see it.

Finally, I'm not sure about this language of "manifestation". Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you, but it sounds a little like you are saying the real deepest ground is the nature (phusis/ousia - I don't know Ge'ez so I'll stick to Greek - sorry), of which the hypostasis is a 'showing forth'. That doesn't sound right to me.

Interested to hear more about what you mean, or to hear the comments of others, whether Chalcedonian or non-Chalcedonian, on this subject.

Tewahedo theology follows a pre-Chalcedonion theology according to Saint Cyril, in which  hypostasis and nature are intertwined and in no way separate terms.  There is no nature without a hypostasis, and the same vice versa.  The Divine has its own distinct hypostasis, and humanity has its own hypostasis, but the Tewahedo mystery of the Incarnation teaches the perfection of Constubstantiality, that Jesus Christ is pefectly consubstantial with the Divine Trinity, and perfectly Consubstantial with us to humanity. In Tewahedo theology, a bahrey (nature) is the essence of a hypostasis, and its a mutual experience, the nature experiences the hypostasis in perfection, in equality. A Hypostasis is not separate from its Nature, they are perfectly united, and mutually experience the Hypostasis.  We chant in the Tewahedo "The Immortasl died, died to quicken death."

stay blessed,
habte selassie
Logged

"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
Tags: crucifixion Christology 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.103 seconds with 50 queries.