Topic: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God

[Deacon Lance]

As I have said in other threads, being Orthodox in itself does not guarantee canonicity of an image, nor does it confer canonicity on an image which is suspect or heretical. History is full of bearded God the Fathers and winged Angels of Holy Silence (to name but a couple) painted by well-meaning, but misguided Orthodox people.

And yet God continues to work miracles through icons like these so who is right God or the canonists?  Perhaps Go cares more about intention than canon.  There is a difference between a heretical image like some of those by Robert Lentz and a portrayal of the Mother of God in a Latin style.  There are Orthodox icons of the Theotokos without Christ. 

As to the Mother of God of Fatima icon it was commissioned for a Latin Catholic Church in St. Petersburg, Russia.  The replacement of the heart with the word heart was a concession to Orthodox iconographic rules.

[ialmisry]

If he is painting (rather than writing)

LBK can correct you on this bit of nonsense.  Icons are indeed painted. 

What you posted cannot be said to be written, only painted.

[orthonorm]

If he is painting (rather than writing)

LBK can correct you on this bit of nonsense.  Icons are indeed painted. 

What you posted cannot be said to be written, only painted.

The point you are making is obviously lost on them.

Since you are a polyglot,

In the languages you know which ones can one use the same verb for "writing" and "painting" or if different very closely related to a single root?

My strength is in Germanic languages and I am at a loss.

[ialmisry]

As I have said in other threads, being Orthodox in itself does not guarantee canonicity of an image, nor does it confer canonicity on an image which is suspect or heretical. History is full of bearded God the Fathers and winged Angels of Holy Silence (to name but a couple) painted by well-meaning, but misguided Orthodox people.

And yet God continues to work miracles through icons like these

What would "these icons" be? What miracles are you talking about?

Perhaps we have a different approach to these matters, given that we heed the warnings of the Fathers on the imagination: when the Theotokos icon in Cicero here began to weep, the first thing the bishop did when he came to investigate was to perform an exorcism on the icon.

"But I fear lest, as the serpent seduced Eve by his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted and fall from the simplicity that is in Christ. For if he that cometh preacheth another Christ, whom we have not preached; or if you receive another Spirit, whom you have not received; or another gospel, which you have not received: you might well bear with him....And no wonder: for Satan himself transformeth himself into an angel of light."

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach a gospel to you besides that which we have preached to you, let him be anathema. 9 As we said before, so now I say again: If any one preach to you a gospel, besides that which you have received, let him be anathema."

The principal characteristic is that it is an image full of light. The Virgin in Fátima was full of light, of a light, which, as Francisco said, " is God ". The full of grace is the full of God, and in Fátima it is the full of light: a Lady more brilliant than the Sun. It brings Fátima closer to the theology of the icon.

http://sanctuschristopher.blogspot.com/2009/12/my-top-five-favorite-icons-of-blessed.html

They should be more careful identifying that light with the Light.

so who is right God or the canonists?

 

Both. Satan is ever in error.

Perhaps Go cares more about intention than canon.

That's true, but you haven't established that He is behind these "miracles."

There is a difference between a heretical image like some of those by Robert Lentz and a portrayal of the Mother of God in a Latin style.  There are Orthodox icons of the Theotokos without Christ.

Yes, the exceptions that make the rule.

As to the Mother of God of Fatima icon it was commissioned for a Latin Catholic Church in St. Petersburg, Russia.  The replacement of the heart with the word heart was a concession to Orthodox iconographic rules.

Is that what that is? I thought it was a communion waifer.

"concession." That should set off bells.

[ialmisry]

If he is painting (rather than writing)

LBK can correct you on this bit of nonsense.  Icons are indeed painted. 

What you posted cannot be said to be written, only painted.

The point you are making is obviously lost on them.

Since you are a polyglot,

In the languages you know which ones can one use the same verb for "writing" and "painting" or if different very closely related to a single root?

My strength is in Germanic languages and I am at a loss.

The Romance "to paint" and Slavonic "to write" have crossed paths:

From Indo-European *peik ("spot, color") > Ancient Greek ποικίλος (poikílos, “spotted, embroidered”), Proto-Slavic püstrý (pestrý in Czech). Pokorny also links to the root: πικρός (pikros, “sharp, keen”), Proto-Slavic *püsati ("write") (see Czech psát, Russian писать, etc.), Germanic *faihoz (“spotted”), hence Old English fah, Scottish faw, English fag.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pingo#Latin

[Deacon Lance]

What would "these icons" be? What miracles are you talking about?

You are unaware of the many wonderworking and weeping icons?  Some have been icons that don't meet the canonical standards.  When icons wept in Chicago and at Camp Nazareth it was approached with caution but both were declared miraculous.  In 1988 I was blessed to be given an icon from Camp Nazareth blessed with myrrh from the original that itself then wept.

[Iconodule]

The Miracle-Working Icon of the Mother of God of Sitka has God the Father at the top:

[ozgeorge]

.....and so another thread is successfully diverted.....

[ChristusDominus]

.....and so another thread is successfully diverted.....

You made notice of this just now?

[ozgeorge]

.....and so another thread is successfully diverted.....

You made notice of this just now?

Yep. As soon as we got off the topic of the bizarre teachings about the Mother of God I kind of lost interest....You know, "Immaculate Hearts" and so forth....

[orthonorm]

.....and so another thread is successfully diverted.....

It's some law of physics.

No thread on the internet with merit remains on topic.

[Justin Kissel]

First law of forumdynamics: opinions can be neither modified nor completely changed during a discussion

Second law of forumdynamics: threads naturally tend to go from order (on topic) to disorder (off topic)

Third law of forumdynamics: as a thread progresses the substance of posts will decrease at the same rate that the number of posts increase

Fourth law of forumdynamics: when cornered in an argument, a person will invariably say that their opponent simply doesn't understand, and then they will vow to leave the discussion

[orthonorm]

First law of forumdynamics: opinions can be neither modified nor completely changed during a discussion

Second law of forumdynamics: threads naturally tend to go from order (on topic) to disorder (off topic)

Third law of forumdynamics: as a thread progresses the substance of posts will decrease at the same rate that the number of posts increase

Fourth law of forumdynamics: when cornered in an argument, a person will invariably say that their opponent simply doesn't understand, and then they will vow to leave the discussion

Is that your own formulation? If so, bravo!

[Justin Kissel]

Yeah, though I did have to do a Google search when I tried to model the third one on the third law of thermodynamics (I couldn't really figure out how to make it work). Ah well.

[ozgeorge]

Brilliant! I love it!

[Tallitot]

First law of forumdynamics: opinions can be neither modified nor completely changed during a discussion

Second law of forumdynamics: threads naturally tend to go from order (on topic) to disorder (off topic)

Third law of forumdynamics: as a thread progresses the substance of posts will decrease at the same rate that the number of posts increase

Fourth law of forumdynamics: when cornered in an argument, a person will invariably say that their opponent simply doesn't understand, and then they will vow to leave the discussion

Nazis!

[elijahmaria]

The expression "Immaculate Heart" isn't a "disection", it's just -

oh, what's the point.

Do go on. When you say "Immaculate Heart", what you really mean is....
And aren't these doctrines of the "Immaculate Heart" and the "Sacred Heart" based on yet more "private revelation" which supposedly Roman Catholics are not "obliged" to believe?

No they do not at all depend on those revelations.  The idea of the Immaculate Heart is not Jesuit-spawn.  It's easy to find things, outside of St. Margaret Mary, on the Internet.

In fact the pope who approved the devotion and made the Immaculate Heart a part of the liturgical cycle outlines the history and specifically notes that the teaching is not dependent upon the visions.   

On the other hand the visions were never discerned as demonic...

M.

[Wyatt]

The expression "Immaculate Heart" isn't a "disection", it's just -

oh, what's the point.

Do go on. When you say "Immaculate Heart", what you really mean is....
And aren't these doctrines of the "Immaculate Heart" and the "Sacred Heart" based on yet more "private revelation" which supposedly Roman Catholics are not "obliged" to believe?

Oh for Pete's sake, we venerate the Immaculate Heart of Mary because, in classical thought, the heart was the essence of the person. It would be a bit like saying we love the Blessed Mother's soul. We would not literally mean we love her soul to the exclusion of the rest of her. I think if anyone but the Catholic Church had such a devotion people would not pick over it as they do.

[theistgal]

Don't bother, Jake - it's Chinatown.

[SolEX01]

Oh for Pete's sake, we venerate the Immaculate Heart of Mary because, in classical thought, the heart was the essence of the person. It would be a bit like saying we love the Blessed Mother's soul. We would not literally mean we love her soul to the exclusion of the rest of her. I think if anyone but the Catholic Church had such a devotion people would not pick over it as they do.

The ancient Greeks considered bile as one of the basic four "humors" present in the human body; however, the Orthodox do not have devotions to Sacred/Immaculate Gallbladders....   

[Justin Kissel]

Oh for Pete's sake, we venerate the Immaculate Heart of Mary because, in classical thought, the heart was the essence of the person. It would be a bit like saying we love the Blessed Mother's soul. We would not literally mean we love her soul to the exclusion of the rest of her. I think if anyone but the Catholic Church had such a devotion people would not pick over it as they do.

The ancient Greeks considered bile as one of the basic four "humors" present in the human body; however, the Orthodox do not have devotions to Sacred/Immaculate Gallbladders....   

No, but some Orthodox do speak rather literally of the soul/being/spirit/etc. being in the heart, and have thoughts about the heart that some others might find strange (e.g. at this page)

[Tallitot]

I bettcha i could come up with a cultus or devotion that Catholics would go for in one day. Just dare me.

[ozgeorge]

The expression "Immaculate Heart" isn't a "disection", it's just -

oh, what's the point.

Do go on. When you say "Immaculate Heart", what you really mean is....
And aren't these doctrines of the "Immaculate Heart" and the "Sacred Heart" based on yet more "private revelation" which supposedly Roman Catholics are not "obliged" to believe?

Oh for Pete's sake, we venerate the Immaculate Heart of Mary because, in classical thought, the heart was the essence of the person.  It would be a bit like saying we love the Blessed Mother's soul. We would not literally mean we love her soul to the exclusion of the rest of her.

Could you give me an example from "Classical Thought" that says "the heart is the essence of the person"?

I think if anyone but the Catholic Church had such a devotion people would not pick over it as they do.

The evidence doesn't bear that out since I stated on this same thread that the same devotion to the "Sacred Heart" by some Western Rite Orthodox is also heresy. No prize for martyrdom this time I'm afraid.

[Justin Kissel]

I bettcha i could come up with a cultus or devotion that Catholics would go for in one day. Just dare me.

You'd have to convert to Catholicism first. You up for it? 

[ialmisry]

The expression "Immaculate Heart" isn't a "disection", it's just -

oh, what's the point.

Do go on. When you say "Immaculate Heart", what you really mean is....
And aren't these doctrines of the "Immaculate Heart" and the "Sacred Heart" based on yet more "private revelation" which supposedly Roman Catholics are not "obliged" to believe?

No they do not at all depend on those revelations.  The idea of the Immaculate Heart is not Jesuit-spawn.  It's easy to find things, outside of St. Margaret Mary, on the Internet.

In fact the pope who approved the devotion and made the Immaculate Heart a part of the liturgical cycle outlines the history and specifically notes that the teaching is not dependent upon the visions.   

On the other hand the visions were never discerned as demonic...

....showing a lack of discernment.

[ialmisry]

The expression "Immaculate Heart" isn't a "disection", it's just -

oh, what's the point.

Do go on. When you say "Immaculate Heart", what you really mean is....
And aren't these doctrines of the "Immaculate Heart" and the "Sacred Heart" based on yet more "private revelation" which supposedly Roman Catholics are not "obliged" to believe?

Oh for Pete's sake, we venerate the Immaculate Heart of Mary because, in classical thought, the heart was the essence of the person. It would be a bit like saying we love the Blessed Mother's soul. We would not literally mean we love her soul to the exclusion of the rest of her. I think if anyone but the Catholic Church had such a devotion people would not pick over it as they do.

The Hindus worship the phallus of Shiva

and the genetalia of Kali

the last making me shudder at the thought of development of doctrine like the immaculate heart ever latching onto the virginity of the Holy Theotokos.

btw, Kali is not a virgin

they have a big festival in June celebrating the earth (Kali is a Earth mother goddess)'s menstruation.

[SolEX01]

Oh for Pete's sake, we venerate the Immaculate Heart of Mary because, in classical thought, the heart was the essence of the person. It would be a bit like saying we love the Blessed Mother's soul. We would not literally mean we love her soul to the exclusion of the rest of her. I think if anyone but the Catholic Church had such a devotion people would not pick over it as they do.

The ancient Greeks considered bile as one of the basic four "humors" present in the human body; however, the Orthodox do not have devotions to Sacred/Immaculate Gallbladders....   

No, but some Orthodox do speak rather literally of the soul/being/spirit/etc. being in the heart, and have thoughts about the heart that some others might find strange (e.g. at this page)

The passage, "Create in me a clean heart, O God, And renew a right spirit within me" (Psalm 50:12 - Orthodox Study Bible) would be applicable to one who has undergone a heart transplant.  Organ transplantation has been accepted by most Orthodox.

[SolEX01]

Now I understand why so many people like Dan Brown movies....

source

....Then the revelations increased. Sister Marie spent whole nights in "amorous colloquies with her beloved Jesus." One day, He permitted her to lean her head on His breast and asked for her heart. She consented. He removed her heart from her chest, placed it upon His own, then returned it to her chest. From that time she felt a continuous pain in that side, where her heart had been extracted and replaced. Jesus told her to bleed herself when the pain became too great.

Marie Alacoque gave her heart to Jesus by a physical document, a deed, which she signed in her own blood. In return, Jesus gave her a deed, which designated her as the heiress to His heart for time and eternity. "Do not be stingy with It," He said to her, "I permit you to dispose of It as you wish, and you will be a plaything for My good pleasure." Upon hearing these words, sister Marie took a pocket knife and carved the name of Jesus into the flesh of her breast "in large and deep letters."

Bishop Languet's Life dwells upon the "promise of marriage" which took place between Jesus and sister Marie, on their "betrothals and espousals." (Actually, the terms he uses are too graphic to be printed in an article intended to be read by Christians.) Languet also relates that the first Friday of every month the pains in sister Marie's side were so sharp she had herself bled. Since this occurred from 1674 to 1690, she would have been bled 192 times in honour of the Sacred Heart, believing she was obeying Christ's express injunctions.

Worshipping the Sacred Heart of Jesus (or Mary) = Self-Mutiliation and the ultimate reward....

In the end, these qualms and counter-defenses in Catholic circles were rendered effectively obsolete by a single action from the Vatican. Pope Pius IX canonised Sister Margaret Mary Alacoque.

[Orual]

First law of forumdynamics: opinions can be neither modified nor completely changed during a discussion

Second law of forumdynamics: threads naturally tend to go from order (on topic) to disorder (off topic)

Third law of forumdynamics: as a thread progresses the substance of posts will decrease at the same rate that the number of posts increase

Fourth law of forumdynamics: when cornered in an argument, a person will invariably say that their opponent simply doesn't understand, and then they will vow to leave the discussion

   This is brilliant.  Well done.

[Tallitot]

I bettcha i could come up with a cultus or devotion that Catholics would go for in one day. Just dare me.

Someone just dare me...

[podkarpatska]

What would "these icons" be? What miracles are you talking about?

You are unaware of the many wonderworking and weeping icons?  Some have been icons that don't meet the canonical standards.  When icons wept in Chicago and at Camp Nazareth it was approached with caution but both were declared miraculous.  In 1988 I was blessed to be given an icon from Camp Nazareth blessed with myrrh from the original that itself then wept.

This is true and the Iveron Icon has also wept. I witnessed the same this past November at my own parish.

[podkarpatska]

The expression "Immaculate Heart" isn't a "disection", it's just -

oh, what's the point.

Do go on. When you say "Immaculate Heart", what you really mean is....
And aren't these doctrines of the "Immaculate Heart" and the "Sacred Heart" based on yet more "private revelation" which supposedly Roman Catholics are not "obliged" to believe?

Oh for Pete's sake, we venerate the Immaculate Heart of Mary because, in classical thought, the heart was the essence of the person. It would be a bit like saying we love the Blessed Mother's soul. We would not literally mean we love her soul to the exclusion of the rest of her. I think if anyone but the Catholic Church had such a devotion people would not pick over it as they do.

The Hindus worship the phallus of Shiva
and the genetalia of Kali
the last making me shudder at the thought of development of doctrine like the immaculate heart ever latching onto the virginity of the Holy Theotokos.

btw, Kali is not a virgin
they have a big festival in June celebrating the earth (Kali is a Earth mother goddess)'s menstruation.

I find Sacred Heart devotions to be foreign and I don't really understand them. However, other than being quite inflammatory, I fail to see how posting pictures of Mayan or Hindu pagan rites can make debate points on these issues that would do anything to cause one to rethink one's position. The Puritans made the same type of arguments about celebrating Christmas and its origins.

[ChristusDominus]

I bettcha i could come up with a cultus or devotion that Catholics would go for in one day. Just dare me.

Someone just dare me...

Someone said you'd first have to convert. Then I'd say go to the wailing wall start a devotion of praying the Rosary there. We'll be right behind you.

[podkarpatska]

I bettcha i could come up with a cultus or devotion that Catholics would go for in one day. Just dare me.

Someone just dare me...

Someone said you'd first have to convert. Then I'd say go to the wailing wall start a devotion of praying the Rosary there. We'll be right behind you.

[Wyatt]

Could you give me an example from "Classical Thought" that says "the heart is the essence of the person"?

How about expressions such as "bless his/her heart," or when one refers to someone being "pure of heart"? Do you take that to mean that their heart needs a blessing because they have poor cardiovascular health, or in the second example that their heart is not dirty?

The evidence doesn't bear that out since I stated on this same thread that the same devotion to the "Sacred Heart" by some Western Rite Orthodox is also heresy. No prize for martyrdom this time I'm afraid.

You cannot cite "Western Rite Orthodoxy" as proof of anything. It is still part of the Eastern Orthodox Church which is still opposed to many Catholic devotions (due, obviously, to not understanding them).

[elijahmaria]

The expression "Immaculate Heart" isn't a "disection", it's just -

oh, what's the point.

Do go on. When you say "Immaculate Heart", what you really mean is....
And aren't these doctrines of the "Immaculate Heart" and the "Sacred Heart" based on yet more "private revelation" which supposedly Roman Catholics are not "obliged" to believe?

Oh for Pete's sake, we venerate the Immaculate Heart of Mary because, in classical thought, the heart was the essence of the person. It would be a bit like saying we love the Blessed Mother's soul. We would not literally mean we love her soul to the exclusion of the rest of her. I think if anyone but the Catholic Church had such a devotion people would not pick over it as they do.

The Hindus worship the phallus of Shiva
and the genetalia of Kali
the last making me shudder at the thought of development of doctrine like the immaculate heart ever latching onto the virginity of the Holy Theotokos.

btw, Kali is not a virgin
they have a big festival in June celebrating the earth (Kali is a Earth mother goddess)'s menstruation.

I find Sacred Heart devotions to be foreign and I don't really understand them. However, other than being quite inflammatory, I fail to see how posting pictures of Mayan or Hindu pagan rites can make debate points on these issues that would do anything to cause one to rethink one's position. The Puritans made the same type of arguments about celebrating Christmas and its origins.

How about assuring us that a saint's visions are demonic?  How is that for civil?

[orthonorm]

The expression "Immaculate Heart" isn't a "disection", it's just -

oh, what's the point.

Do go on. When you say "Immaculate Heart", what you really mean is....
And aren't these doctrines of the "Immaculate Heart" and the "Sacred Heart" based on yet more "private revelation" which supposedly Roman Catholics are not "obliged" to believe?

Oh for Pete's sake, we venerate the Immaculate Heart of Mary because, in classical thought, the heart was the essence of the person. It would be a bit like saying we love the Blessed Mother's soul. We would not literally mean we love her soul to the exclusion of the rest of her. I think if anyone but the Catholic Church had such a devotion people would not pick over it as they do.

The Hindus worship the phallus of Shiva
and the genetalia of Kali
the last making me shudder at the thought of development of doctrine like the immaculate heart ever latching onto the virginity of the Holy Theotokos.

btw, Kali is not a virgin
they have a big festival in June celebrating the earth (Kali is a Earth mother goddess)'s menstruation.

I find Sacred Heart devotions to be foreign and I don't really understand them. However, other than being quite inflammatory, I fail to see how posting pictures of Mayan or Hindu pagan rites can make debate points on these issues that would do anything to cause one to rethink one's position. The Puritans made the same type of arguments about celebrating Christmas and its origins.

How about assuring us that a saint's visions are demonic?  How is that for civil?

Saints themselves have attributed some of their "visions" to being demonic.

It would seem to me that a temptation of a Saint would involve such things.

For people like me, a demon just has to tell me I could use a little extra sleep on Sunday morning.

[theistgal]

So do individual members of the Eastern Orthodox Church get to decide that other Orthodox (Western, Oriental, etc.) are heretics, just on their own without all their Patriarchs in agreement? Cool! I want to be my own Pope too!

[podkarpatska]

So do individual members of the Eastern Orthodox Church get to decide that other Orthodox (Western, Oriental, etc.) are heretics, just on their own without all their Patriarchs in agreement? Cool! I want to be my own Pope too!

Not in my world, perhaps some believe that.

[Irish Hermit]

You cannot cite "Western Rite Orthodoxy" as proof of anything. It is still part of the Eastern Orthodox Church which is still opposed to many Catholic devotions (due, obviously, to not understanding them).

The use of Western Rites in a few of the Orthodox Churches is a very new phenomenon and only a few decades old.

It is in its experimental stages.  But it is so miniscule that some doubt if it will survive.

I agree that under the circumstances it is not of much value to cite Western Rite Orthodox usages as proof of anything.

[Irish Hermit]

So do individual members of the Eastern Orthodox Church get to decide that other Orthodox (Western, Oriental, etc.) are heretics, just on their own without all their Patriarchs in agreement? Cool! I want to be my own Pope too!

I suppose some things are so obvious that nobody has to wait for a synodal decision from the bishops - the Mother of God is worshipped as the Fourth Person of the Trinity... a layperson may consecrate the Bread and Wined.... a nun may give sacramental absolution...

[Iconodule]

I think the sacred heart devotion is suspect, but calling Orthodox who practice it "heretics" is at best shrill hyperbole.

[SolEX01]

I wonder how many Catholic women (and men?) carve the names of Jesus and Mary onto their bodies seeing that the most famous of these self-mutilators is a Saint ... oh wait, why should I waste mental energy on what they do.   

Humanae Vitae doesn't condemn one to eternal damnation for self-mutilation ...

[stashko]

Question.......

Don't Catholic Venerate / worship the forskin of our Lord as well, and don't they claim to have it somewhere in a reliquary ,So what  Else is New....

[theistgal]

Self-mutilation?  Really?

If that's really what you think the Roman Catholic Church teaches its adherents to do, I don't know that it's worth it to even try to discuss this topic with you.