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Offline theistgal

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #135 on: February 03, 2011, 12:02:33 AM »
No, what's needed is what is always needed: for man to exercise his free will and turn towards God.  He always gives us that choice.

(and by the way, I understand that EOs don't like the term or the teaching, but every time one of you uses the term "Immaculate Heart" disparagingly like that, to us it is the same as if one of is sneered at your use of "Theotokos".  It is simply another way to describe the same person: Mary, the mother of God.

I would hope you would want the prayers of the Theotokos to prevail. If I'm wrong, my apologies.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #136 on: February 03, 2011, 12:17:40 AM »
Is Rome doing so much better?
Depends, France is quite as bad as Russia, Poland and Western Ukraine much better.

So, the conversion of Russia is still awaited, although as Sister Lucia stated, Russia is free?  Converted to what then?
It has started and conversion is ongoing.  Russia is certainly better now than under Communism.  You were the one implying Russia was just fine being nominally Orthodox under athiestic rule.

Well, I guess we'll never know unless the supreme pontiff consecrates it properly as instructed
Blessed John Paul did so in 1984 and Sr. Lucia confirmed it.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #137 on: February 03, 2011, 12:26:47 AM »
Worldwide Cardinal-Bishop Petition for the Proclamation of a Marian Dogma

"Five cardinals have invited every cardinal and bishop in the world to join them in petitioning Pope Benedict XVI to solemnly proclaim the Mother of Jesus as the "Spiritual Mother of humanity” as an ecumenical service of clarification to other religious traditions and to proclaim the full Christian truth about Mary..........This definition of Mary as spiritual mother would include her three maternal roles as the human “Co-redemptrix” (which literally means “a woman with the Redeemer” but never on a level of equality with her divine son), “Mediatrix” or distributor of the graces of the redemption, and “Advocate” or principal intercessor to her Jesus Christ. "......more
more? That's more than enough.
The origins of the movement for this "Dogma" are traceable to (you guessed it) another "apparition" of the "Virgin Mary" in Amsterdam:
http://www.de-vrouwe.info/en/the-dogma
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Offline LBK

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #138 on: February 03, 2011, 01:39:34 AM »
Most Holy Mother of God save us.

That image might be OK in your church, Dcn Lance, but it falls dismally short of proper Orthodox iconographic standards. It may have been painted to resemble an icon, but it ain't an icon.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 02:02:56 AM by LBK »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #139 on: February 03, 2011, 01:47:18 AM »
Worldwide Cardinal-Bishop Petition for the Proclamation of a Marian Dogma

"Five cardinals have invited every cardinal and bishop in the world to join them in petitioning Pope Benedict XVI to solemnly proclaim the Mother of Jesus as the "Spiritual Mother of humanity” as an ecumenical service of clarification to other religious traditions and to proclaim the full Christian truth about Mary..........This definition of Mary as spiritual mother would include her three maternal roles as the human “Co-redemptrix” (which literally means “a woman with the Redeemer” but never on a level of equality with her divine son), “Mediatrix” or distributor of the graces of the redemption, and “Advocate” or principal intercessor to her Jesus Christ. "......more
more? That's more than enough.
The origins of the movement for this "Dogma" are traceable to (you guessed it) another "apparition" of the "Virgin Mary" in Amsterdam:
http://www.de-vrouwe.info/en/the-dogma

Yeah, that's not too disturbing. (De Vrouwe van alle Volkeren is "The Lady of All Nations").
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Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #140 on: February 03, 2011, 01:48:24 AM »
Truly, Fatima and Lourdes are much too big of a cash cow to be ignored by the Vatican.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #141 on: February 03, 2011, 01:49:13 AM »
Most Holy Mother of God save us.
The Orthodox will notice the absence of Christ in that image.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline LBK

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #142 on: February 03, 2011, 01:53:00 AM »
Most Holy Mother of God save us.
The Orthodox will notice the absence of Christ in that image.

... and the absence of the three stars of perpetual virginity, and the pointing of the Virgin to her own "immaculate heart" rather than to Christ. Fail, fail, fail.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 01:53:34 AM by LBK »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #143 on: February 03, 2011, 01:59:03 AM »
Is Rome doing so much better?
Depends, France is quite as bad as Russia, Poland and Western Ukraine much better.
And Romania, Macedonia and Georgia even better.

So, the conversion of Russia is still awaited, although as Sister Lucia stated, Russia is free?  Converted to what then?
It has started and conversion is ongoing.  Russia is certainly better now than under Communism.  You were the one implying Russia was just fine being nominally Orthodox under athiestic rule.
No, I was the one who was repeating what adherents of Fatima implied, that communism wasn't the only thing "Russia" (the Soviet Union was atheist, Russia never was) needed to be converted from.

Well, I guess we'll never know unless the supreme pontiff consecrates it properly as instructed
Blessed John Paul did so in 1984 and Sr. Lucia confirmed it.
Did she do so ex cathedra?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #144 on: February 03, 2011, 02:03:17 AM »
No, what's needed is what is always needed: for man to exercise his free will and turn towards God.  He always gives us that choice.

(and by the way, I understand that EOs don't like the term or the teaching, but every time one of you uses the term "Immaculate Heart" disparagingly like that, to us it is the same as if one of is sneered at your use of "Theotokos".  It is simply another way to describe the same person: Mary, the mother of God.
Uh, no.  It dissects her and then labels her with a heresy.
I would hope you would want the prayers of the Theotokos to prevail. If I'm wrong, my apologies.
We want her prayers to prevail, but not the delusions of something masquerading as her.
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline Tallitot

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #145 on: February 03, 2011, 02:19:27 AM »
i believe everyone's heart is sacred and should be treated accordingly.
Proverbs 22:7

Offline theistgal

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #146 on: February 03, 2011, 02:50:53 AM »
The expression "Immaculate Heart" isn't a "disection", it's just -

oh, what's the point.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #147 on: February 03, 2011, 07:29:09 AM »
The expression "Immaculate Heart" isn't a "disection", it's just -

oh, what's the point.

Do go on. When you say "Immaculate Heart", what you really mean is....
And aren't these doctrines of the "Immaculate Heart" and the "Sacred Heart" based on yet more "private revelation" which supposedly Roman Catholics are not "obliged" to believe?
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 07:40:34 AM by ozgeorge »
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #148 on: February 03, 2011, 09:39:59 AM »
He has been told several times.  His priestly faculties have been suspened and he in no way speaks for the Catholic Church.

That's good to know, but there are many pious Catholics around the world who are not making that distinction.

Frankly, we all should be working for the strengthening of our own faith and the re-Chistianization of our own nations in the light of various non-Apostolic heresies which multiply across our secular world and the force of Islamic growth.  It is no wonder that the Theotokas weeps for both the faithful of the west and the east.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 09:44:20 AM by podkarpatska »

Offline theistgal

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #149 on: February 03, 2011, 11:44:08 AM »
No, I'm not going on.  I'm fed up with both Churches, frankly.  The Amish are startimg to look better and better.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #150 on: February 03, 2011, 11:53:38 AM »
OK, then I apologize for all the times I prayed that the Russian people would be saved from the evils of Communism. Obviously I had no right whatsoever to do that.  Only the Orthodox may pray for the countries in which they reside. I get it now.
There is no evidence that Fatima was about the evils of communism, but the "evils" of Orthodoxy.

Except the words of Sister Lucia in an interview:

Carlos Evaristo: "But is not the conversion of Russia not interpreted as the conversion of the Russian People to Catholicism?"

Sister Lucia:"Our Lady never said that. There are many misinterpretations around. The fact is that in Russia, the communist, atheist power, prevented the people form carrying out their faith. People now have an individual choice to remain as they are or to convert. This they are now free to do, and many conversions are, in fact, taking place; and that man (Gorbachev) in Russia, unknowingly was an instrument of God in the conversion..." (from Two Hours with Sister Lucia by Carlos Evaristo)



Except that the visions occurred from May to October 1917 on the New Calendar, before the November communist revolution. The February revolution was not done by Bolsheviks. And communism did not become entrenched in power until after the civil war in the 1920s. The Tsar was not even executed until 1918, though he abdicated in early 1917.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 11:54:47 AM by Shanghaiski »
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Offline theistgal

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #151 on: February 03, 2011, 11:59:21 AM »
Yes.

It was a prophecy.  And its accurate fulfillment is one of the primary reasons it was approved.

If you ever get a chance to see the old Hollywood movie version of the Miracle at Fatima (starring the great Gilbert Roland in a totally fictitious role), the opening scenes and the ENTIRE movie see Fatima as God's condemnation of Communism.  This from Hollywood, at the time a hotbed of Communism itself!
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Offline podkarpatska

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #152 on: February 03, 2011, 12:05:01 PM »
The only way to not upset Orthodox regarding Fatima is to view it as theistgal posits. Since such visions are typically not found within the Orthodox experience, it is tough for many of us to get a handle on them from the western mindset. What bothers me, and I am sure most of the Orthodox, is the cult-like obsession a minority of Catholics have regarding such things. Those types do tend to view as damned heretics. They remind me of the many Evangelicals who 'predict' the future and pending doom through their personal interpretations of scripture and particularly that of Revelation.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #153 on: February 03, 2011, 12:28:33 PM »
Yes.

It was a prophecy.  And its accurate fulfillment is one of the primary reasons it was approved.
Except that Sister Lucia did not reveal this "prophecy" until August 1941, after WWII had already begun.
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Offline theistgal

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #154 on: February 03, 2011, 12:40:54 PM »
Really?

A few posts above someone insisted that since the prophecies were made in 1917, they couldn't have had anything to do with the Bolshevik revolution in 1918.

Now you say the prophecies weren't revealed till 1941.

Consistency, anyone?
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #155 on: February 03, 2011, 12:43:55 PM »
Really?

A few posts above someone insisted that since the prophecies were made in 1917, they couldn't have had anything to do with the Bolshevik revolution in 1918.

Now you say the prophecies weren't revealed till 1941.

Consistency, anyone?
Before people decide to believe in "prophecies" they should do a little homework:
http://www.portugal.com/fatima/officialsecrets
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #156 on: February 03, 2011, 12:46:28 PM »
Really?

A few posts above someone insisted that since the prophecies were made in 1917, they couldn't have had anything to do with the Bolshevik revolution in 1918.

Now you say the prophecies weren't revealed till 1941.

Consistency, anyone?

I based it off of Wiki--the appearances occurred from May to October 1917. I didn't say anything about prophecies.
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Offline theistgal

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #157 on: February 03, 2011, 04:53:18 PM »
The prophecies were made while the children were still having the visions.  In 1917.
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #158 on: February 03, 2011, 05:04:50 PM »
The expression "Immaculate Heart" isn't a "disection", it's just -

oh, what's the point.

Do go on. When you say "Immaculate Heart", what you really mean is....
And aren't these doctrines of the "Immaculate Heart" and the "Sacred Heart" based on yet more "private revelation" which supposedly Roman Catholics are not "obliged" to believe?

From the Saint Ambrose Prayerbook for Western Rite Orthodox:

                                                  Devotions to the Sacred Heart

The Western Orthodox use of this devotion — although the devotion didn’t develop until the 17th century, long after the schism between the East and West – is directed to the compassion of Jesus Christ, represented by His Sacred Heart. The devotion does parallel the Eastern Rite devotion found in The Akathist to the Sweetest Lord Jesus, which has been popular among Eastern Christians for centuries. It is not a devotion to a specific physical organ and body part, anymore than when we say of ourselves, “my heart within me is troubled,” but to Our Lord’s compassionate love for us. The heart is long been taken to be the symbolic seat of love and the Heart of Jesus reveals the fundamental fact of Christianity that God loves us. Devotion to the Sacred Heart bestows a deeper insight into the Divine love and a surer confidence in it. As we see something of God’s love, we shall want to make a return in terms of love and this devotion enables us to express the love of our own hearts. (p. 370)

                                                   Prayer to the Sacred Heart

O Sacred Heart of Jesus! living and life-giving fountain of eternal life, infinite treasure of the Divinity, glowing furnace of love. Thou art my refuge and my sanctuary. O my adorable and loving Saviour, consume my heart with that fire wherewith Thine is ever inflamed; pour from thy love, and let my heart be so united with Thine that my will may be conformed to Thine in all things. Amen. (pp. 370-71)
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 05:06:00 PM by ChristusDominus »
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #159 on: February 03, 2011, 05:09:57 PM »
The expression "Immaculate Heart" isn't a "disection", it's just -

oh, what's the point.

Do go on. When you say "Immaculate Heart", what you really mean is....
And aren't these doctrines of the "Immaculate Heart" and the "Sacred Heart" based on yet more "private revelation" which supposedly Roman Catholics are not "obliged" to believe?

From the Saint Ambrose Prayerbook for Western Rite Orthodox:

                                                  Devotions to the Sacred Heart

The Western Orthodox use of this devotion — although the devotion didn’t develop until the 17th century, long after the schism between the East and West – is directed to the compassion of Jesus Christ, represented by His Sacred Heart. The devotion does parallel the Eastern Rite devotion found in The Akathist to the Sweetest Lord Jesus, which has been popular among Eastern Christians for centuries. It is not a devotion to a specific physical organ and body part, anymore than when we say of ourselves, “my heart within me is troubled,” but to Our Lord’s compassionate love for us. The heart is long been taken to be the symbolic seat of love and the Heart of Jesus reveals the fundamental fact of Christianity that God loves us. Devotion to the Sacred Heart bestows a deeper insight into the Divine love and a surer confidence in it. As we see something of God’s love, we shall want to make a return in terms of love and this devotion enables us to express the love of our own hearts. (p. 370)

                                                   Prayer to the Sacred Heart

O Sacred Heart of Jesus! living and life-giving fountain of eternal life, infinite treasure of the Divinity, glowing furnace of love. Thou art my refuge and my sanctuary. O my adorable and loving Saviour, consume my heart with that fire wherewith Thine is ever inflamed; pour from thy love, and let my heart be so united with Thine that my will may be conformed to Thine in all things. Amen. (pp. 370-71)
Bring that up with the Patriarchates of Moscow and Antioch.
I'm under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #160 on: February 03, 2011, 05:11:54 PM »
The expression "Immaculate Heart" isn't a "disection", it's just -

oh, what's the point.

Do go on. When you say "Immaculate Heart", what you really mean is....
And aren't these doctrines of the "Immaculate Heart" and the "Sacred Heart" based on yet more "private revelation" which supposedly Roman Catholics are not "obliged" to believe?

From the Saint Ambrose Prayerbook for Western Rite Orthodox:

                                                  Devotions to the Sacred Heart

The Western Orthodox use of this devotion — although the devotion didn’t develop until the 17th century, long after the schism between the East and West – is directed to the compassion of Jesus Christ, represented by His Sacred Heart. The devotion does parallel the Eastern Rite devotion found in The Akathist to the Sweetest Lord Jesus, which has been popular among Eastern Christians for centuries. It is not a devotion to a specific physical organ and body part, anymore than when we say of ourselves, “my heart within me is troubled,” but to Our Lord’s compassionate love for us. The heart is long been taken to be the symbolic seat of love and the Heart of Jesus reveals the fundamental fact of Christianity that God loves us. Devotion to the Sacred Heart bestows a deeper insight into the Divine love and a surer confidence in it. As we see something of God’s love, we shall want to make a return in terms of love and this devotion enables us to express the love of our own hearts. (p. 370)

                                                   Prayer to the Sacred Heart

O Sacred Heart of Jesus! living and life-giving fountain of eternal life, infinite treasure of the Divinity, glowing furnace of love. Thou art my refuge and my sanctuary. O my adorable and loving Saviour, consume my heart with that fire wherewith Thine is ever inflamed; pour from thy love, and let my heart be so united with Thine that my will may be conformed to Thine in all things. Amen. (pp. 370-71)
Bring that up with the Patriarchates of Moscow and Antioch.
I'm under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
You brought it up. Maybe you should take it up with them since you are in communion with them? I am just asking.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #161 on: February 03, 2011, 05:12:43 PM »
The expression "Immaculate Heart" isn't a "disection", it's just -

oh, what's the point.

Do go on. When you say "Immaculate Heart", what you really mean is....
And aren't these doctrines of the "Immaculate Heart" and the "Sacred Heart" based on yet more "private revelation" which supposedly Roman Catholics are not "obliged" to believe?

From the Saint Ambrose Prayerbook for Western Rite Orthodox:

                                                  Devotions to the Sacred Heart

The Western Orthodox use of this devotion — although the devotion didn’t develop until the 17th century, long after the schism between the East and West – is directed to the compassion of Jesus Christ, represented by His Sacred Heart. The devotion does parallel the Eastern Rite devotion found in The Akathist to the Sweetest Lord Jesus, which has been popular among Eastern Christians for centuries. It is not a devotion to a specific physical organ and body part, anymore than when we say of ourselves, “my heart within me is troubled,” but to Our Lord’s compassionate love for us. The heart is long been taken to be the symbolic seat of love and the Heart of Jesus reveals the fundamental fact of Christianity that God loves us. Devotion to the Sacred Heart bestows a deeper insight into the Divine love and a surer confidence in it. As we see something of God’s love, we shall want to make a return in terms of love and this devotion enables us to express the love of our own hearts. (p. 370)

                                                   Prayer to the Sacred Heart

O Sacred Heart of Jesus! living and life-giving fountain of eternal life, infinite treasure of the Divinity, glowing furnace of love. Thou art my refuge and my sanctuary. O my adorable and loving Saviour, consume my heart with that fire wherewith Thine is ever inflamed; pour from thy love, and let my heart be so united with Thine that my will may be conformed to Thine in all things. Amen. (pp. 370-71)
Bring that up with the Patriarchates of Moscow and Antioch.
I'm under the Oecumenical Patriarchate.
You brought it up. Maybe you should take it up with them since you are in communion with them? I am just asking.
I have.
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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #162 on: February 03, 2011, 05:16:53 PM »
No, I'm not going on.  I'm fed up with both Churches, frankly.  The Amish are startimg to look better and better.

Lord have mercy!

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #163 on: February 03, 2011, 05:21:27 PM »
The prophecies were made while the children were still having the visions.  In 1917.

So what?  There is no evidence that these "prophecies" then are what Sr. Lucia claimed they were in August 1941.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #164 on: February 03, 2011, 05:29:44 PM »
The expression "Immaculate Heart" isn't a "disection", it's just -

oh, what's the point.

Do go on. When you say "Immaculate Heart", what you really mean is....
And aren't these doctrines of the "Immaculate Heart" and the "Sacred Heart" based on yet more "private revelation" which supposedly Roman Catholics are not "obliged" to believe?

From the Saint Ambrose Prayerbook for Western Rite Orthodox:

                                                  Devotions to the Sacred Heart

The Western Orthodox use of this devotion — although the devotion didn’t develop until the 17th century, long after the schism between the East and West – is directed to the compassion of Jesus Christ, represented by His Sacred Heart. The devotion does parallel the Eastern Rite devotion found in The Akathist to the Sweetest Lord Jesus, which has been popular among Eastern Christians for centuries. It is not a devotion to a specific physical organ and body part, anymore than when we say of ourselves, “my heart within me is troubled,” but to Our Lord’s compassionate love for us. The heart is long been taken to be the symbolic seat of love and the Heart of Jesus reveals the fundamental fact of Christianity that God loves us. Devotion to the Sacred Heart bestows a deeper insight into the Divine love and a surer confidence in it. As we see something of God’s love, we shall want to make a return in terms of love and this devotion enables us to express the love of our own hearts. (p. 370)

                                                   Prayer to the Sacred Heart

O Sacred Heart of Jesus! living and life-giving fountain of eternal life, infinite treasure of the Divinity, glowing furnace of love. Thou art my refuge and my sanctuary. O my adorable and loving Saviour, consume my heart with that fire wherewith Thine is ever inflamed; pour from thy love, and let my heart be so united with Thine that my will may be conformed to Thine in all things. Amen. (pp. 370-71)
The picture contradicts the explanation.

Like the use of imagination in saying the Rosary, IMHO this is something the WRO shouldn't hold on to. Btw, of all the WRO I've come across, none has the "sacred heart" devotion.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 05:30:49 PM by ialmisry »
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Offline ChristusDominus

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #165 on: February 03, 2011, 05:32:11 PM »
No, I'm not going on.  I'm fed up with both Churches, frankly.  The Amish are startimg to look better and better.
Whatever you do, I hope you don't base your decision on anything said here that you may consider uncharitable.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 05:33:04 PM by ChristusDominus »
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #166 on: February 03, 2011, 05:39:59 PM »
No, I'm not going on.  I'm fed up with both Churches, frankly.  The Amish are startimg to look better and better.
Whatever you do, I hope you don't base your decision on anything said here that you may consider uncharitable.
Hear, Hear! The only determining factor should be the avoidance of heresy.
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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #167 on: February 03, 2011, 05:41:07 PM »
The expression "Immaculate Heart" isn't a "disection", it's just -

oh, what's the point.

Do go on. When you say "Immaculate Heart", what you really mean is....
And aren't these doctrines of the "Immaculate Heart" and the "Sacred Heart" based on yet more "private revelation" which supposedly Roman Catholics are not "obliged" to believe?

From the Saint Ambrose Prayerbook for Western Rite Orthodox:

                                                  Devotions to the Sacred Heart

The Western Orthodox use of this devotion — although the devotion didn’t develop until the 17th century, long after the schism between the East and West – is directed to the compassion of Jesus Christ, represented by His Sacred Heart. The devotion does parallel the Eastern Rite devotion found in The Akathist to the Sweetest Lord Jesus, which has been popular among Eastern Christians for centuries. It is not a devotion to a specific physical organ and body part, anymore than when we say of ourselves, “my heart within me is troubled,” but to Our Lord’s compassionate love for us. The heart is long been taken to be the symbolic seat of love and the Heart of Jesus reveals the fundamental fact of Christianity that God loves us. Devotion to the Sacred Heart bestows a deeper insight into the Divine love and a surer confidence in it. As we see something of God’s love, we shall want to make a return in terms of love and this devotion enables us to express the love of our own hearts. (p. 370)

                                                   Prayer to the Sacred Heart

O Sacred Heart of Jesus! living and life-giving fountain of eternal life, infinite treasure of the Divinity, glowing furnace of love. Thou art my refuge and my sanctuary. O my adorable and loving Saviour, consume my heart with that fire wherewith Thine is ever inflamed; pour from thy love, and let my heart be so united with Thine that my will may be conformed to Thine in all things. Amen. (pp. 370-71)

The Western Orthodox version of that and everything else has been edited. It is not identical to the Roman Catholic version. Also, it is not universal practice, the devotion to the Sacred Heart, even in the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate.
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #168 on: February 03, 2011, 06:24:50 PM »
The expression "Immaculate Heart" isn't a "disection", it's just -

oh, what's the point.

Do go on. When you say "Immaculate Heart", what you really mean is....
And aren't these doctrines of the "Immaculate Heart" and the "Sacred Heart" based on yet more "private revelation" which supposedly Roman Catholics are not "obliged" to believe?

From the Saint Ambrose Prayerbook for Western Rite Orthodox:

                                                  Devotions to the Sacred Heart

The Western Orthodox use of this devotion — although the devotion didn’t develop until the 17th century, long after the schism between the East and West – is directed to the compassion of Jesus Christ, represented by His Sacred Heart. The devotion does parallel the Eastern Rite devotion found in The Akathist to the Sweetest Lord Jesus, which has been popular among Eastern Christians for centuries. It is not a devotion to a specific physical organ and body part, anymore than when we say of ourselves, “my heart within me is troubled,” but to Our Lord’s compassionate love for us. The heart is long been taken to be the symbolic seat of love and the Heart of Jesus reveals the fundamental fact of Christianity that God loves us. Devotion to the Sacred Heart bestows a deeper insight into the Divine love and a surer confidence in it. As we see something of God’s love, we shall want to make a return in terms of love and this devotion enables us to express the love of our own hearts. (p. 370)

                                                   Prayer to the Sacred Heart

O Sacred Heart of Jesus! living and life-giving fountain of eternal life, infinite treasure of the Divinity, glowing furnace of love. Thou art my refuge and my sanctuary. O my adorable and loving Saviour, consume my heart with that fire wherewith Thine is ever inflamed; pour from thy love, and let my heart be so united with Thine that my will may be conformed to Thine in all things. Amen. (pp. 370-71)

The Western Orthodox version of that and everything else has been edited. It is not identical to the Roman Catholic version. Also, it is not universal practice, the devotion to the Sacred Heart, even in the Antiochian Western Rite Vicariate.
Universal or not, "Sacred Heart" devotion is heresy, and attempts to "re-interpret" it (for instance, as a devotion to the "Love of God") don't make it any less of a heresy. And if heretics insist on venerating created body parts of Christ as the seat of "Divine Love", then they should actually be venerating His bowels, because that is the "seat" of His Compassion according to the New Testament. Mark 6:34 literally translates as:
"And Jesus, when he came out, saw much people, and His bowels wrenched within Him [εσπλαγχνισθη]  toward them, because they were as sheep not having a shepherd: and he began to teach them many things."
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 06:35:01 PM by ozgeorge »
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #169 on: February 03, 2011, 06:28:34 PM »
That image might be OK in your church, Dcn Lance, but it falls dismally short of proper Orthodox iconographic standards. It may have been painted to resemble an icon, but it ain't an icon.

You'll have to take that up with the Russian Orthodox iconographer who painted it.  
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Offline theistgal

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #170 on: February 03, 2011, 06:36:12 PM »
ozgeorge: who were the "created body parts" (!) of Christ created by?
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #171 on: February 03, 2011, 06:38:34 PM »
ozgeorge: who were the "created body parts" (!) of Christ created by?
By the same Person who created you. :)
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Offline Deacon Lance

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« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 06:46:23 PM by Deacon Lance »
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #173 on: February 03, 2011, 06:48:38 PM »
That image might be OK in your church, Dcn Lance, but it falls dismally short of proper Orthodox iconographic standards. It may have been painted to resemble an icon, but it ain't an icon.

You'll have to take that up with the Russian Orthodox iconographer who painted it.  
If he is painting (rather than writing) an image (rather than icon) of Fatima, he can't be all that Orthodox.  I'll let the Russians discuss how Russian he can be.
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Offline ialmisry

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Offline Shanghaiski

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #175 on: February 03, 2011, 06:54:07 PM »
That image might be OK in your church, Dcn Lance, but it falls dismally short of proper Orthodox iconographic standards. It may have been painted to resemble an icon, but it ain't an icon.

You'll have to take that up with the Russian Orthodox iconographer who painted it.  

My guess is the image would not be welcomed in an Orthodox church, of course there are always exceptions for crazy heresies. There are Russian "Orthodox" icons of Stalin and Ivan the Terrible, too. Insanity  is everywhere.
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Offline LBK

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #176 on: February 03, 2011, 06:54:53 PM »
That image might be OK in your church, Dcn Lance, but it falls dismally short of proper Orthodox iconographic standards. It may have been painted to resemble an icon, but it ain't an icon.

You'll have to take that up with the Russian Orthodox iconographer who painted it.  

As I have said in other threads, being Orthodox in itself does not guarantee canonicity of an image, nor does it confer canonicity on an image which is suspect or heretical. History is full of bearded God the Fathers and winged Angels of Holy Silence (to name but a couple) painted by well-meaning, but misguided Orthodox people. The person who painted this image should have his mistake pointed out. Even if this image was commissioned by a Roman Catholic patron, this is still most problematic for an Orthodox iconographer.

Icons are painted with prayer and fasting. An Orthodox iconographer invoking the immaculate heart of Mary (or praying to a saint or invoking a feast not of the Orthodox Church) is a matter of grave and utmost concern. Icons are not artistic playthings or vehicles of self-expression - they are nothing less than the pictorial proclamation of what Orthodoxy believes and proclaims.

Taking liberties with iconographic portrayals is no less a serious matter than being "innovative" with church hymnography. Remember the justified controversy and seriousness of a Catholic priest who thought it a good idea to baptise in the name of the Creator, Liberator and Sustainer? He didn't do it out of malice or insubordination, but was quite rightly brought to book, and these aberrant baptisms now have to be regularised.

I stand by my earlier comments.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 07:00:25 PM by LBK »
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #177 on: February 03, 2011, 06:56:21 PM »
ozgeorge: who were the "created body parts" (!) of Christ created by?
By the same Person who created you. :)
Theistgal, why did you put the words "created body parts" in inverted commas and follow it with an exclamation mark? Don't you realize that Christ's Body is a creation and did not exist prior to the Incarnation?
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Offline LBK

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #178 on: February 03, 2011, 06:58:12 PM »

My guess is the image would not be welcomed in an Orthodox church, of course there are always exceptions for crazy heresies. There are Russian "Orthodox" icons of Stalin and Ivan the Terrible, too. Insanity  is everywhere.

Ah, the posterboys of the ultranationalists. Rest assured, Shanghaiski, that the chances of these "icons" crossing the threshold of an Orthodox church are zero. These paintings are exercises in futility.
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Offline Deacon Lance

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #179 on: February 03, 2011, 07:10:34 PM »
If he is painting (rather than writing)

LBK can correct you on this bit of nonsense.  Icons are indeed painted. 
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