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Author Topic: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God  (Read 29838 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #405 on: February 07, 2011, 11:46:39 AM »

What say all of the wrong idea peddled by some that the Virgin Mary never died but just ascended like Christ to the heavens? It is a key connection to the co-redemptrix business since it allows some to say that a person other than Christ did not need a saviour.
She did not ascend nor do we teach that she did. She was assumed. There is a difference:


Ascension = going bodily to heaven by one's own power (what Christ did since He is God the Son)

Assumption = taken bodily to heaven by God (what happened to Elijah, Enoch, and the Theotokos)

You teach the heresy that she did not need a saviour and that she never died because she was sinless. Whether the Virgin Mary was sinless or not is of little concern- but she needed a saviour and she fell asleep after her time was done. Enoch and Elijah will also die when their time comes.
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« Reply #406 on: February 07, 2011, 02:54:46 PM »

What say all of the wrong idea peddled by some that the Virgin Mary never died but just ascended like Christ to the heavens? It is a key connection to the co-redemptrix business since it allows some to say that a person other than Christ did not need a saviour.
She did not ascend nor do we teach that she did. She was assumed. There is a difference:


Ascension = going bodily to heaven by one's own power (what Christ did since He is God the Son)

Assumption = taken bodily to heaven by God (what happened to Elijah, Enoch, and the Theotokos)

You teach the heresy that she did not need a saviour and that she never died because she was sinless. Whether the Virgin Mary was sinless or not is of little concern- but she needed a saviour and she fell asleep after her time was done. Enoch and Elijah will also die when their time comes.

Two things: 

First: In the teaching on the Immaculate Conception the Church explicitly says in its document that the Mother of God requires a redeemer and that the Church's understanding of the Immaculate Conception does not negate the fact that she was redeemed.  This is an explicit part of the teaching, so it really ought to be dealt with on those terms.

Second: In the teaching on the Assumption of the Mother of God the Church explicitly says in its document that the Mother of God ends her life time on this earth "in the normal way" which is death.  Against this is an explicit part of the teaching, easy to find, so it really ought to be dealt with on those terms.

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« Reply #407 on: February 08, 2011, 09:08:06 PM »

What say all of the wrong idea peddled by some that the Virgin Mary never died but just ascended like Christ to the heavens? It is a key connection to the co-redemptrix business since it allows some to say that a person other than Christ did not need a saviour.
She did not ascend nor do we teach that she did. She was assumed. There is a difference:


Ascension = going bodily to heaven by one's own power (what Christ did since He is God the Son)

Assumption = taken bodily to heaven by God (what happened to Elijah, Enoch, and the Theotokos)

You teach the heresy that she did not need a saviour and that she never died because she was sinless. Whether the Virgin Mary was sinless or not is of little concern- but she needed a saviour and she fell asleep after her time was done. Enoch and Elijah will also die when their time comes.

Two things: 

First: In the teaching on the Immaculate Conception the Church explicitly says in its document that the Mother of God requires a redeemer and that the Church's understanding of the Immaculate Conception does not negate the fact that she was redeemed.  This is an explicit part of the teaching, so it really ought to be dealt with on those terms.

So the document is inconsistent.

Second: In the teaching on the Assumption of the Mother of God the Church explicitly says in its document that the Mother of God ends her life time on this earth "in the normal way"

Not in the copies I've seen it doesn't.

which is death.  Against this is an explicit part of the teaching, easy to find, so it really ought to be dealt with on those terms.
Tell your Immortalists.
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« Reply #408 on: February 08, 2011, 10:28:30 PM »

14. ...In the same way, it was not difficult for them to admit that the great Mother of God, like her only begotten Son, had actually passed from this life. But this in no way prevented them from believing and from professing openly that her sacred body had never been subject to the corruption of the tomb, and that the august tabernacle of the Divine Word had never been reduced to dust and ashes.

44.  ...we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus_en.html
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« Reply #409 on: February 09, 2011, 01:44:48 AM »

And of course there is the Basilica of the Dormition on Mt. Zion in Jerusalem which has the place of the Theotokos' dormition in the crypt:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dormition_P8050064.JPG
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« Reply #410 on: February 09, 2011, 01:49:05 AM »

As if open heart surgery Christ and the Theotokos wasn't enough, we get a vision to through in the God the Father and the triangle halo:
http://www.movingheartfoundation.com/SacredHeartOfGodTheFatherStoryOfThePainting.htm

Please note even they admit their bishop has not given them any approval to spread this wackiness and he has ignored all their requests.
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« Reply #411 on: February 09, 2011, 01:58:04 AM »

14. ...In the same way, it was not difficult for them to admit that the great Mother of God, like her only begotten Son, had actually passed from this life. But this in no way prevented them from believing and from professing openly that her sacred body had never been subject to the corruption of the tomb, and that the august tabernacle of the Divine Word had never been reduced to dust and ashes.

44.  ...we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus_en.html
14. Christ's faithful, through the teaching and the leadership of their pastors, have learned from the sacred books that the Virgin Mary, throughout the course of her earthly pilgrimage, led a life troubled by cares, hardships, and sorrows, and that, moreover, what the holy old man Simeon had foretold actually came to pass, that is, that a terribly sharp sword pierced her heart as she stood under the cross of her divine Son, our Redeemer. In the same way, it was not difficult for them to admit that the great Mother of God, like her only begotten Son, had actually passed from this life. ....

Sufficiently vague-as always-that the Immortalists can, and do, slip in.
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« Reply #412 on: February 09, 2011, 02:07:07 AM »

As if open heart surgery Christ and the Theotokos wasn't enough, we get a vision to through in the God the Father and the triangle halo:
http://www.movingheartfoundation.com/SacredHeartOfGodTheFatherStoryOfThePainting.htm

Please note even they admit their bishop has not given them any approval to spread this wackiness and he has ignored all their requests.
Ah, but doesn't that prove it? Didn't Lourdes and Fatima face initial opposition from the clergy?  The Immaculate Conception had fierce opposition from the like of Bernard of Clairveaux, Bonaventure, Alexander of Hales and Thomas Aquinas, dogma still it became.
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« Reply #413 on: February 09, 2011, 02:20:35 AM »

14. ...In the same way, it was not difficult for them to admit that the great Mother of God, like her only begotten Son, had actually passed from this life. But this in no way prevented them from believing and from professing openly that her sacred body had never been subject to the corruption of the tomb, and that the august tabernacle of the Divine Word had never been reduced to dust and ashes.

44.  ...we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus_en.html

The only thing which never saw corruption is the Holy One which is Christ, another very serious mistake, error in this false dogma...

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« Reply #414 on: February 09, 2011, 02:20:35 AM »

Thank you Deacon Lance.  Perhaps Isa had some other document in mind where he did not read this.

14. ...In the same way, it was not difficult for them to admit that the great Mother of God, like her only begotten Son, had actually passed from this life. But this in no way prevented them from believing and from professing openly that her sacred body had never been subject to the corruption of the tomb, and that the august tabernacle of the Divine Word had never been reduced to dust and ashes.

44.  ...we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus_en.html
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« Reply #415 on: February 09, 2011, 03:47:44 AM »

You teach the heresy that she did not need a saviour and that she never died because she was sinless. Whether the Virgin Mary was sinless or not is of little concern- but she needed a saviour and she fell asleep after her time was done. Enoch and Elijah will also die when their time comes.

What?  Huh
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« Reply #416 on: February 09, 2011, 04:03:35 AM »

Mary is certainly a part of the Christian "story", but I believe the feminist/liberal mindset of today is what is driving this new manner of "glorifying" her.
I don't think so. Feminism would hardly offer a Virgin Mother as an ideal for women to aspire to. ALL of the Catholics I know personally who are pushing for these new dogmas (and there are, unfortunately, many in Australia) actually identify themselves as "Conservative" and "Traditional" Catholics. I think what we are seeing is actually "doctrinal development of errors" which can be traced back to the first error: the "Immaculate Conception".  The "Immaculate Conception" dogma dissociated the Theotokos from humanity in the (probably subconscious) minds of Latin Rite Catholics. What we are seeing now with the push for these new "Marian Dogmas" of "Co-Redemptrix" and "Mediatrix" is the collective consciousness resulting from this initial error.
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« Reply #417 on: February 09, 2011, 01:35:35 PM »

 The "Immaculate Conception" dogma dissociated the Theotokos from humanity in the (probably subconscious) minds of Latin Rite Catholics. What we are seeing now with the push for these new "Marian Dogmas" of "Co-Redemptrix" and "Mediatrix" is the collective consciousness resulting from this initial error.
And..... False. Swing and a miss Georgy.
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« Reply #418 on: February 09, 2011, 01:37:08 PM »

What say all of the wrong idea peddled by some that the Virgin Mary never died but just ascended like Christ to the heavens? It is a key connection to the co-redemptrix business since it allows some to say that a person other than Christ did not need a saviour.
She did not ascend nor do we teach that she did. She was assumed. There is a difference:


Ascension = going bodily to heaven by one's own power (what Christ did since He is God the Son)

Assumption = taken bodily to heaven by God (what happened to Elijah, Enoch, and the Theotokos)

You teach the heresy that she did not need a saviour and that she never died because she was sinless. Whether the Virgin Mary was sinless or not is of little concern- but she needed a saviour and she fell asleep after her time was done. Enoch and Elijah will also die when their time comes.
Not even true buddy. We teach that she did, in fact, need a savior, and that she did die. Where are you coming up with the nonsense you are spouting?
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« Reply #419 on: February 09, 2011, 01:38:12 PM »

What say all of the wrong idea peddled by some that the Virgin Mary never died but just ascended like Christ to the heavens? It is a key connection to the co-redemptrix business since it allows some to say that a person other than Christ did not need a saviour.
She did not ascend nor do we teach that she did. She was assumed. There is a difference:


Ascension = going bodily to heaven by one's own power (what Christ did since He is God the Son)

Assumption = taken bodily to heaven by God (what happened to Elijah, Enoch, and the Theotokos)
You know that they are gonna ignore you and keep falsely attributing a doctrine of the "ascension of Mary" to us.
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« Reply #420 on: February 09, 2011, 01:43:48 PM »

What say all of the wrong idea peddled by some that the Virgin Mary never died but just ascended like Christ to the heavens? It is a key connection to the co-redemptrix business since it allows some to say that a person other than Christ did not need a saviour.
She did not ascend nor do we teach that she did. She was assumed. There is a difference:


Ascension = going bodily to heaven by one's own power (what Christ did since He is God the Son)

Assumption = taken bodily to heaven by God (what happened to Elijah, Enoch, and the Theotokos)

You teach the heresy that she did not need a saviour and that she never died because she was sinless. Whether the Virgin Mary was sinless or not is of little concern- but she needed a saviour and she fell asleep after her time was done. Enoch and Elijah will also die when their time comes.
Not even true buddy. We teach that she did, in fact, need a savior, and that she did die. Where are you coming up with the nonsense you are spouting?

Before anything, you should think about who you're replying to, as someone who doesn't even believe that the One who the Virgin St. Mary gave birth to and mothered isn't God.

That's a bizarre teaching.
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« Reply #421 on: February 09, 2011, 06:02:50 PM »

And..... False. Swing and a miss Georgy.
Well, how could one possibly argue with such incontrovertible evidence as you present. Smiley

What say all of the wrong idea peddled by some that the Virgin Mary never died but just ascended like Christ to the heavens? It is a key connection to the co-redemptrix business since it allows some to say that a person other than Christ did not need a saviour.
She did not ascend nor do we teach that she did. She was assumed. There is a difference:


Ascension = going bodily to heaven by one's own power (what Christ did since He is God the Son)

Assumption = taken bodily to heaven by God (what happened to Elijah, Enoch, and the Theotokos)

You teach the heresy that she did not need a saviour and that she never died because she was sinless. Whether the Virgin Mary was sinless or not is of little concern- but she needed a saviour and she fell asleep after her time was done. Enoch and Elijah will also die when their time comes.
Not even true buddy. We teach that she did, in fact, need a savior, and that she did die. Where are you coming up with the nonsense you are spouting?

Before anything, you should think about who you're replying to, as someone who doesn't even believe that the One who the Virgin St. Mary gave birth to and mothered isn't God.

That's a bizarre teaching.
Indeed. One erroneous doctrine invariably gives birth to a viper brood of them.
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« Reply #422 on: February 09, 2011, 06:16:10 PM »

Indeed. One erroneous doctrine invariably gives birth to a viper brood of them.

Are you speaking to Rafa, Papist, Wyatt, Mina, or all of them?  police
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« Reply #423 on: February 09, 2011, 06:28:20 PM »

Well, how could one possibly argue with such incontrovertible evidence as you present. Smiley
At least as incontrovertible as your assertion to the contrary.  Cheesy
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« Reply #424 on: February 09, 2011, 06:31:04 PM »

What say all of the wrong idea peddled by some that the Virgin Mary never died but just ascended like Christ to the heavens? It is a key connection to the co-redemptrix business since it allows some to say that a person other than Christ did not need a saviour.
She did not ascend nor do we teach that she did. She was assumed. There is a difference:


Ascension = going bodily to heaven by one's own power (what Christ did since He is God the Son)

Assumption = taken bodily to heaven by God (what happened to Elijah, Enoch, and the Theotokos)

You teach the heresy that she did not need a saviour and that she never died because she was sinless. Whether the Virgin Mary was sinless or not is of little concern- but she needed a saviour and she fell asleep after her time was done. Enoch and Elijah will also die when their time comes.
Not even true buddy. We teach that she did, in fact, need a savior, and that she did die. Where are you coming up with the nonsense you are spouting?
Straight from the mouth of Satan. Satan hates Our Lady and will do anything to make people mock and discredit her, even by using fellow Christians. I saw this quite often as a Protestant.

What say all of the wrong idea peddled by some that the Virgin Mary never died but just ascended like Christ to the heavens? It is a key connection to the co-redemptrix business since it allows some to say that a person other than Christ did not need a saviour.
She did not ascend nor do we teach that she did. She was assumed. There is a difference:


Ascension = going bodily to heaven by one's own power (what Christ did since He is God the Son)

Assumption = taken bodily to heaven by God (what happened to Elijah, Enoch, and the Theotokos)
You know that they are gonna ignore you and keep falsely attributing a doctrine of the "ascension of Mary" to us.
Yeah, they won't take anything I say seriously unless I say that Mary is a Goddess and we worship her.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #425 on: February 09, 2011, 06:40:18 PM »

Indeed. One erroneous doctrine invariably gives birth to a viper brood of them.

Are you speaking to Rafa, Papist, Wyatt, Mina, or all of them?  police
I'm speaking of heresy generally. Now, it may be (in fact, it's invariably the case) that absolutely no one believes that the doctrines they adhere to are heresy. That is why I don't believe there is any point in trying to convince anyone that their dogmas are erroneous. No heretic ever converted because they were argued into the Church. What I was saying is that once one erroneous belief (delusion if you will) is admitted into the articles of one's beliefs, it invariably spawns others. If I become fixated on one false belief, then I must create a structure of other false beliefs in order to support the original one, and each part of the supporting structure needs it's own supporting structure and so on. This is very similar to delusional disorders where a whole series of delusional beliefs are created to support an initial delusional belief.
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« Reply #426 on: February 09, 2011, 06:57:04 PM »

^ Well now, that's an interesting thought about webs of delusion. Regarding being argued into the Church... not so sure about that one  Smiley
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« Reply #427 on: February 09, 2011, 07:19:26 PM »

 The "Immaculate Conception" dogma dissociated the Theotokos from humanity in the (probably subconscious) minds of Latin Rite Catholics. What we are seeing now with the push for these new "Marian Dogmas" of "Co-Redemptrix" and "Mediatrix" is the collective consciousness resulting from this initial error.
And..... False. Swing and a miss Georgy.

Ozgeorge's theory makes sense to me. 

Obviously the RC position wouldn't agree that the IC dogma led to this dissociation, but are you arguing that there is no connection between the two, or simply that there is no significant push for new "Marian Dogmas"?
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« Reply #428 on: February 09, 2011, 07:42:08 PM »

What say all of the wrong idea peddled by some that the Virgin Mary never died but just ascended like Christ to the heavens? It is a key connection to the co-redemptrix business since it allows some to say that a person other than Christ did not need a saviour.
She did not ascend nor do we teach that she did. She was assumed. There is a difference:


Ascension = going bodily to heaven by one's own power (what Christ did since He is God the Son)

Assumption = taken bodily to heaven by God (what happened to Elijah, Enoch, and the Theotokos)

You teach the heresy that she did not need a saviour and that she never died because she was sinless. Whether the Virgin Mary was sinless or not is of little concern- but she needed a saviour and she fell asleep after her time was done. Enoch and Elijah will also die when their time comes.
Not even true buddy. We teach that she did, in fact, need a savior, and that she did die. Where are you coming up with the nonsense you are spouting?

Where got the "immortal virgin Mary that ascended to heaven without sins and thus never needed a saviour" false doctrine? A Catholic priest I spoke to who was young and who told me he refused absolution to all who denied this so called "dogma" of his church (immaculate conception specifically). That's heavy that he denied sacraments to Roman Catholics who did not believe this. And yes, I believe they will continue to ignore because they too believe in the "assumption" as well unfortunately, even though her actual physical relatives who knew the truth never spoke such a thing while serving in the ACOE as the Patriarchs of the Church...
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« Reply #429 on: February 09, 2011, 07:42:09 PM »

What say all of the wrong idea peddled by some that the Virgin Mary never died but just ascended like Christ to the heavens? It is a key connection to the co-redemptrix business since it allows some to say that a person other than Christ did not need a saviour.
She did not ascend nor do we teach that she did. She was assumed. There is a difference:


Ascension = going bodily to heaven by one's own power (what Christ did since He is God the Son)

Assumption = taken bodily to heaven by God (what happened to Elijah, Enoch, and the Theotokos)

You teach the heresy that she did not need a saviour and that she never died because she was sinless. Whether the Virgin Mary was sinless or not is of little concern- but she needed a saviour and she fell asleep after her time was done. Enoch and Elijah will also die when their time comes.
Not even true buddy. We teach that she did, in fact, need a savior, and that she did die. Where are you coming up with the nonsense you are spouting

Before anything, you should think about who you're replying to, as someone who doesn't even believe that the One who the Virgin St. Mary gave birth to and mothered isn't God.

That's a bizarre teaching.

Where Did I ever say such a thing ? Papist will continue to speak with me since we have the same Christology according to H.H. John Paul II. By the way Minas, I have a feeling St. Anthony the Great of Egypt would agree more in Christology with me than you. How do I know? Because his cave has an image of an Edessene icon which teaches my Christology (and which is based on an ACOE relic now in Turin):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/galleries/copticchristians/#

Look behind. Why did your own people place an icon which teaches the two natures of Christ and which emphasizes them being completely seperate:



May the eyes and Hands of Christ Judge the Truth on this in the Last Day !
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« Reply #430 on: February 09, 2011, 07:42:09 PM »

And..... False. Swing and a miss Georgy.
Well, how could one possibly argue with such incontrovertible evidence as you present. Smiley

What say all of the wrong idea peddled by some that the Virgin Mary never died but just ascended like Christ to the heavens? It is a key connection to the co-redemptrix business since it allows some to say that a person other than Christ did not need a saviour.
She did not ascend nor do we teach that she did. She was assumed. There is a difference:


Ascension = going bodily to heaven by one's own power (what Christ did since He is God the Son)

Assumption = taken bodily to heaven by God (what happened to Elijah, Enoch, and the Theotokos)

You teach the heresy that she did not need a saviour and that she never died because she was sinless. Whether the Virgin Mary was sinless or not is of little concern- but she needed a saviour and she fell asleep after her time was done. Enoch and Elijah will also die when their time comes.
Not even true buddy. We teach that she did, in fact, need a savior, and that she did die. Where are you coming up with the nonsense you are spouting?

Before anything, you should think about who you're replying to, as someone who doesn't even believe that the One who the Virgin St. Mary gave birth to and mothered isn't God.

That's a bizarre teaching.
Indeed. One erroneous doctrine invariably gives birth to a viper brood of them.

Oz, I never said such a thing. It is gross miscomprehension to say that because I don't accept that God is a "person" and that thus we can't talk of birth, dying, eating, sleeping (he who does not sleep), etc. to the Godhead that I don't accept the Godhood of the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe all these things were done by his humanity. I believe in what Saint Thaddeus himself wrote in the Liturgy, that the Holy Virgin accepted the Holy Spirit in her precious womb to give Christ birth...and nothing else. I repeat what the Apostle of Christ wrote and will not add or remove anything.
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« Reply #431 on: February 09, 2011, 07:42:10 PM »

And..... False. Swing and a miss Georgy.
Well, how could one possibly argue with such incontrovertible evidence as you present. Smiley

What say all of the wrong idea peddled by some that the Virgin Mary never died but just ascended like Christ to the heavens? It is a key connection to the co-redemptrix business since it allows some to say that a person other than Christ did not need a saviour.
She did not ascend nor do we teach that she did. She was assumed. There is a difference:


Ascension = going bodily to heaven by one's own power (what Christ did since He is God the Son)

Assumption = taken bodily to heaven by God (what happened to Elijah, Enoch, and the Theotokos)

You teach the heresy that she did not need a saviour and that she never died because she was sinless. Whether the Virgin Mary was sinless or not is of little concern- but she needed a saviour and she fell asleep after her time was done. Enoch and Elijah will also die when their time comes.
Not even true buddy. We teach that she did, in fact, need a savior, and that she did die. Where are you coming up with the nonsense you are spouting?

Before anything, you should think about who you're replying to, as someone who doesn't even believe that the One who the Virgin St. Mary gave birth to and mothered isn't God.

That's a bizarre teaching.
Indeed. One erroneous doctrine invariably gives birth to a viper brood of them.

Before anything, you should think about who you're replying to, as someone who doesn't even believe that the One who the Virgin St. Mary gave birth to and mothered isn't Perfect Man and Perfect God, but instead has 1 nature not distinguishing between the two and disrespecting this sacred mystery.


That's a bizarre teaching.

Behold:

Coptic Christ (look at hand):



The REAL Jesus Christ expressing who he is with his Hand :




From the Church of Hagia Sophia we shall see in Supremest Wisdom which Christ the Eastern Orthodox Church chose despite all the arguments and councils :




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« Reply #432 on: February 09, 2011, 08:10:17 PM »

Oz, I never said such a thing. It is gross miscomprehension to say that because I don't accept that God is a "person" and that thus we can't talk of birth, dying, eating, sleeping (he who does not sleep), etc. to the Godhead that I don't accept the Godhood of the Lord Jesus Christ. I believe all these things were done by his humanity. I believe in what Saint Thaddeus himself wrote in the Liturgy, that the Holy Virgin accepted the Holy Spirit in her precious womb to give Christ birth...and nothing else. I repeat what the Apostle of Christ wrote and will not add or remove anything.
Which simply goes to prove what I said. One erroneous doctrine (in this case, Nestorianism) invariably gives birth to a viper brood of other heresies.
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« Reply #433 on: February 09, 2011, 09:51:02 PM »

And..... False. Swing and a miss Georgy.
Well, how could one possibly argue with such incontrovertible evidence as you present. Smiley

What say all of the wrong idea peddled by some that the Virgin Mary never died but just ascended like Christ to the heavens? It is a key connection to the co-redemptrix business since it allows some to say that a person other than Christ did not need a saviour.
She did not ascend nor do we teach that she did. She was assumed. There is a difference:


Ascension = going bodily to heaven by one's own power (what Christ did since He is God the Son)

Assumption = taken bodily to heaven by God (what happened to Elijah, Enoch, and the Theotokos)

You teach the heresy that she did not need a saviour and that she never died because she was sinless. Whether the Virgin Mary was sinless or not is of little concern- but she needed a saviour and she fell asleep after her time was done. Enoch and Elijah will also die when their time comes.
Not even true buddy. We teach that she did, in fact, need a savior, and that she did die. Where are you coming up with the nonsense you are spouting?

Before anything, you should think about who you're replying to, as someone who doesn't even believe that the One who the Virgin St. Mary gave birth to and mothered isn't God.

That's a bizarre teaching.
Indeed. One erroneous doctrine invariably gives birth to a viper brood of them.

Before anything, you should think about who you're replying to, as someone who doesn't even believe that the One who the Virgin St. Mary gave birth to and mothered isn't Perfect Man and Perfect God, but instead has 1 nature not distinguishing between the two and disrespecting this sacred mystery.


That's a bizarre teaching.

Behold:

Coptic Christ (look at hand):



The REAL Jesus Christ expressing who he is with his Hand :




From the Church of Hagia Sophia we shall see in Supremest Wisdom which Christ the Eastern Orthodox Church chose despite all the arguments and councils :



I've always said Perfect Man and Perfect God.  You on the other hand deny that the One who the Theotokos bore and raised was God.  You have trouble saying it because you separate the natures completely.

The hand gestures a unity.  We believe in a unity without confusion.  "One Lord, One Christ, One is the adoration and worship," I do not worship two, God who dwells in Jesus, I worship One, God Incarnate, and I honor and venerate God Incarnate's Mother, the Virgin St. Mary.

May God forgive you for destroying the unity in Christ.
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« Reply #434 on: February 09, 2011, 10:04:23 PM »

You teach the heresy that she did not need a saviour and that she never died because she was sinless. Whether the Virgin Mary was sinless or not is of little concern- but she needed a saviour and she fell asleep after her time was done. Enoch and Elijah will also die when their time comes.

So who is going to kill Enoch and Elijah "when their time comes"? Or will they just die from something "natural" like a spiritual-heart-attack or something? Where will they die? In heaven? Or will they be sent back to earth so as not to sully heaven? And do they know that they're going to die? That must cause them a lot of anxiety! Or maybe God is keeping it from them, since there is supposed to be no anxiety in heaven? This is quite an fertile ground for planting innovative ideas you've happened upon!  Grin
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« Reply #435 on: February 09, 2011, 10:11:55 PM »

So who is going to kill Enoch and Elijah "when their time comes"? Or will they just die from something "natural" like a spiritual-heart-attack or something? Where will they die? In heaven? Or will they be sent back to earth so as not to sully heaven? And do they know that they're going to die? That must cause them a lot of anxiety! Or maybe God is keeping it from them, since there is supposed to be no anxiety in heaven? This is quite an fertile ground for planting innovative ideas you've happened upon!  Grin
There is a belief among some that Enoch and Elijah (some say Moses and Elijah) are the "Two Witnesses" mentioned in the Apocalypse (Revelation 11:3-12).
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« Reply #436 on: February 09, 2011, 10:16:08 PM »

There is a belief among some that Enoch and Elijah (some say Moses and Elijah) are the "Two Witnesses" mentioned in the Apocalypse (Revelation 11:3-12).

Interesting... does it count if they get resurrected on earth and then ascend before dying again? For comparison, if Lazarus for some reason ascended to heaven after he'd been brought back to life but before he'd died again, would his first death have counted as him dying?
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« Reply #437 on: February 09, 2011, 10:41:03 PM »

There is a belief among some that Enoch and Elijah (some say Moses and Elijah) are the "Two Witnesses" mentioned in the Apocalypse (Revelation 11:3-12).
Interesting... does it count if they get resurrected on earth and then ascend before dying again? For comparison, if Lazarus for some reason ascended to heaven after he'd been brought back to life but before he'd died again, would his first death have counted as him dying?
The raising of Lazarus was a "resuscitation", that is, life was restored to his corpse, but his body was not Glorified by his raising in the way that our bodies will be Glorified at the General Resurrection. The Apostle says that at the General Resurrection, the dead will be raised in Glorified bodies and the bodies of the living will change to be Glorified (I Corinthians 15:52). So Lazarus indeed has "died twice", but his body will still only be glorified once. The same is the case with the Seven Sleepers of Ephesus.
Enoch and Elijah (and some say Moses) didn't die. Elijah was carried to Heaven in a fiery chariot and Enoch was translated to Heaven ("μετατίθημι" LXX) by God, so if they are the "Two Witnesses", then they will only die once and their bodies will be Glorified once.
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« Reply #438 on: February 09, 2011, 10:49:41 PM »

Ok, you had me in everything except the Moses thing. Moses clearly wrote about his death and what happened after it ( Tongue ) in Deut. 34...
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« Reply #439 on: February 09, 2011, 10:55:38 PM »

Ok, you had me in everything except the Moses thing. Moses clearly wrote about his death and what happened after it ( Tongue ) in Deut. 34...
It seems that Moses was resurrected at some point (Jude 1:9). At the Transfiguration, it was Moses and Elijah who appeared, hence the alternate belief that they will be the "Two Witnesses" (rather than Enoch and Elijah).
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« Reply #440 on: February 09, 2011, 11:08:47 PM »

What say all of the wrong idea peddled by some that the Virgin Mary never died but just ascended like Christ to the heavens? It is a key connection to the co-redemptrix business since it allows some to say that a person other than Christ did not need a saviour.
She did not ascend nor do we teach that she did. She was assumed. There is a difference:


Ascension = going bodily to heaven by one's own power (what Christ did since He is God the Son)

Assumption = taken bodily to heaven by God (what happened to Elijah, Enoch, and the Theotokos)

You teach the heresy that she did not need a saviour and that she never died because she was sinless. Whether the Virgin Mary was sinless or not is of little concern- but she needed a saviour and she fell asleep after her time was done. Enoch and Elijah will also die when their time comes.
Not even true buddy. We teach that she did, in fact, need a savior, and that she did die. Where are you coming up with the nonsense you are spouting?
Straight from the mouth of Satan.

You are saying that Satan is papist?

Satan hates Our Lady and will do anything to make people mock and discredit her, even by using fellow Christians. I saw this quite often as a Protestant.
Hmmm. Ever given much thought to that warning of St. Paul about angels of light?

What say all of the wrong idea peddled by some that the Virgin Mary never died but just ascended like Christ to the heavens? It is a key connection to the co-redemptrix business since it allows some to say that a person other than Christ did not need a saviour.
She did not ascend nor do we teach that she did. She was assumed. There is a difference:

Ascension = going bodily to heaven by one's own power (what Christ did since He is God the Son)

Assumption = taken bodily to heaven by God (what happened to Elijah, Enoch, and the Theotokos)
You know that they are gonna ignore you and keep falsely attributing a doctrine of the "ascension of Mary" to us.
Yeah, they won't take anything I say seriously unless I say that Mary is a Goddess and we worship her.  Roll Eyes
How serious do you take what Dr. Mark Miravelle and his Vox Populi say about her?  How serious do you take what Maximillian Kolbe said about the "Immaculata"?
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« Reply #441 on: February 09, 2011, 11:10:52 PM »

Ok, you had me in everything except the Moses thing. Moses clearly wrote about his death and what happened after it ( Tongue ) in Deut. 34...
It seems that Moses was resurrected at some point (Jude 1:9). At the Transfiguration, it was Moses and Elijah who appeared, hence the alternate belief that they will be the "Two Witnesses" (rather than Enoch and Elijah).

Huh, well I don't see Jude 9 as supporting that, but I don't claim to have any special understanding, so... ok, thanks Smiley
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« Reply #442 on: February 09, 2011, 11:15:40 PM »

Well, how could one possibly argue with such incontrovertible evidence as you present. Smiley
At least as incontrovertible as your assertion to the contrary.  Cheesy
Ozgeorge presented incontrovertable facts,e.g. maintstream theologians of the Vatican are pushing for it to proclaim yet more Marian Dogma.

You are the one who has made assertions and disclaimers.
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« Reply #443 on: February 09, 2011, 11:20:25 PM »

 The "Immaculate Conception" dogma dissociated the Theotokos from humanity in the (probably subconscious) minds of Latin Rite Catholics. What we are seeing now with the push for these new "Marian Dogmas" of "Co-Redemptrix" and "Mediatrix" is the collective consciousness resulting from this initial error.
And..... False. Swing and a miss Georgy.
Au contraire, a home run.

Btw, Ozgeorge, do you get the baseball imagery?  I don't think you have it down under.
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« Reply #444 on: February 09, 2011, 11:23:33 PM »

Mary is certainly a part of the Christian "story", but I believe the feminist/liberal mindset of today is what is driving this new manner of "glorifying" her.
I don't think so. Feminism would hardly offer a Virgin Mother as an ideal for women to aspire to.
Not like feminism is consistent: I used to love to watch them promote the cult of the great mother goddess while asserting abortion rights and denigrating motherhood.
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« Reply #445 on: February 09, 2011, 11:26:16 PM »

Thank you Deacon Lance.  Perhaps Isa had some other document in mind where he did not read this.

14. ...In the same way, it was not difficult for them to admit that the great Mother of God, like her only begotten Son, had actually passed from this life. But this in no way prevented them from believing and from professing openly that her sacred body had never been subject to the corruption of the tomb, and that the august tabernacle of the Divine Word had never been reduced to dust and ashes.

44.  ...we pronounce, declare, and define it to be a divinely revealed dogma: that the Immaculate Mother of God, the ever Virgin Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul into heavenly glory.

http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/apost_constitutions/documents/hf_p-xii_apc_19501101_munificentissimus-deus_en.html
I don't have any document in mind: your Immortalists have read it, and hold their beliefs, and those beliefs are held as acceptible (according to the Nihil Obstats and Imprimaturs I've seen). not by me.
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« Reply #446 on: February 10, 2011, 12:55:35 AM »

Indeed. One erroneous doctrine invariably gives birth to a viper brood of them.

Are you speaking to Rafa, Papist, Wyatt, Mina, or all of them?  police
I'm speaking of heresy generally. Now, it may be (in fact, it's invariably the case) that absolutely no one believes that the doctrines they adhere to are heresy. That is why I don't believe there is any point in trying to convince anyone that their dogmas are erroneous. No heretic ever converted because they were argued into the Church. What I was saying is that once one erroneous belief (delusion if you will) is admitted into the articles of one's beliefs, it invariably spawns others. If I become fixated on one false belief, then I must create a structure of other false beliefs in order to support the original one, and each part of the supporting structure needs it's own supporting structure and so on. This is very similar to delusional disorders where a whole series of delusional beliefs are created to support an initial delusional belief.

Fortunately I know I have no delusional disorder concerning who the Virgin Mary is since I have the words of the Apostle Thaddeus himself telling me who she is in a Jewish prayer at the beginning of the Liturgy he wrote large portions of (and of course the Disciples did not disciple people differently meaning somebody is introducing a new teaching on the matter than the one he gave...) Thank the Lord Jesus that I know who his mother is and who she isn't !

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« Reply #447 on: February 10, 2011, 12:55:37 AM »

Anyways, I will not speak about the tradition handed down to me on who the Virgin Mary really was since this is polemic and bizarre to many here and I don't want run ins, I will watch this thread carefully since it interests me...
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« Reply #448 on: February 10, 2011, 12:55:37 AM »

I will be retiring from OC.net. I have enjoyed many conversations with you all, but I think the topics are better discussed one on one so that misunderstandings don't occur and I become a burden to others.

Farewell Brothers...
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« Reply #449 on: February 10, 2011, 12:55:38 AM »

And..... False. Swing and a miss Georgy.
Well, how could one possibly argue with such incontrovertible evidence as you present. Smiley

What say all of the wrong idea peddled by some that the Virgin Mary never died but just ascended like Christ to the heavens? It is a key connection to the co-redemptrix business since it allows some to say that a person other than Christ did not need a saviour.
She did not ascend nor do we teach that she did. She was assumed. There is a difference:


Ascension = going bodily to heaven by one's own power (what Christ did since He is God the Son)

Assumption = taken bodily to heaven by God (what happened to Elijah, Enoch, and the Theotokos)

You teach the heresy that she did not need a saviour and that she never died because she was sinless. Whether the Virgin Mary was sinless or not is of little concern- but she needed a saviour and she fell asleep after her time was done. Enoch and Elijah will also die when their time comes.
Not even true buddy. We teach that she did, in fact, need a savior, and that she did die. Where are you coming up with the nonsense you are spouting?

Before anything, you should think about who you're replying to, as someone who doesn't even believe that the One who the Virgin St. Mary gave birth to and mothered isn't God.

That's a bizarre teaching.
Indeed. One erroneous doctrine invariably gives birth to a viper brood of them.

Before anything, you should think about who you're replying to, as someone who doesn't even believe that the One who the Virgin St. Mary gave birth to and mothered isn't Perfect Man and Perfect God, but instead has 1 nature not distinguishing between the two and disrespecting this sacred mystery.


That's a bizarre teaching.

Behold:

Coptic Christ (look at hand):



The REAL Jesus Christ expressing who he is with his Hand :




From the Church of Hagia Sophia we shall see in Supremest Wisdom which Christ the Eastern Orthodox Church chose despite all the arguments and councils :



I've always said Perfect Man and Perfect God.  You on the other hand deny that the One who the Theotokos bore and raised was God.  You have trouble saying it because you separate the natures completely.

The hand gestures a unity.  We believe in a unity without confusion.  "One Lord, One Christ, One is the adoration and worship," I do not worship two, God who dwells in Jesus, I worship One, God Incarnate, and I honor and venerate God Incarnate's Mother, the Virgin St. Mary.

May God forgive you for destroying the unity in Christ.

You wish me to attribute to the Divinity what the humanity did, and to the humanity what the Divinity did thus destroying the union of Christ :

Quote
But once peace was restored and Christian kings had taken over the reins of government of the Romans, then vice and scandal entered the Church, and synods and sects multiplied, because every year someone invented a new creed. Security and peace led to many evils. The lovers of glory stirred up troubles unceasingly, using gold to obtain the consent of kings, so they could play about with them like little children. All this happened among the Romans.

As for the Church of Persia, as it was under the domination of the Magians, it was had nothing else to oppose.  Although some scandals arose, these scandals, however, were not allowed to grow, because from the first the Lord repressed them.  So while these things were going thus from apostolic times to the reign of the last Khosro , our Saviour, to whom everything is clear even before it happens, saw how much we had lost during this long peace and to what evils we were led by the interference of Christian kings who wanted us to say that this nature above to all suffering suffered  -- something even the demons have not dared to put forward .


-Mar John bar Penkaye, Rish Mele (History of World, Book 15 )

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Tags: Vassula Sacred Heart Immaculate Conception bad acid trip 
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