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Author Topic: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God  (Read 29253 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #360 on: February 05, 2011, 09:26:39 PM »

If anyone gets tired of all the Catholic bashing and wants an actual understanding of what we mean when we use the term "co-redemptrix," this site is quite informative: http://www.voxpopuli.org/response_to_7_common_objections_part1.php

I pulled up that site by doing a simple Google search. I am surprised no one else has ran across it. Of course, that is not nearly as much fun as taking snippets of a quote out of context and other forms of dishonesty so really I do not know why I am surprised.
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« Reply #361 on: February 05, 2011, 09:30:05 PM »

Just a note on the "suffering marks" of the Theotokos in Catholic depictions, we do understand there is a tradition of miracles people suffered through called the stigmata.  For the benefit of the doubt, perhaps this is a symbolic "stigmata" that many other faithful can experience.
A Tradition of the Coptic Orthodox, or a tradition of the Vatican?

There is no tradition of stigmata in the Coptic Church.  I don't know where you're getting the idea that I'm advocating a Coptic tradition when I said "Catholic depictions."

When I go to the Coptic Church, and we pray for the Catholic Church, we aren't praying for the Vatican.

Okay...I meant the Roman Catholic Church, not the Orthodox Church. 

Quote
I'm simply trying to understand what Catholics think, especially with the picture where there's light radiating from a certain point in the palm of her hand.  That's all.
Just checking.  Since the Copts have the Tradition of Kiyahk, the visions of Zeitoun etc. and yet have produced nothing like the traditions of the Vatican we are discussing here, I don't see any similiarity.

So you're not the least bit worried about people misinterpreting "the salvation of our father Adam" or "the redemption of Isaiah" or "the grace of Elijah" as Coptic titles of the Theotokos?
How long have they been singing that in Egypt, and no bizarre dogmas on the Holy Thetokos have sprouted? No, not the least bit worried.  If they started taking such titles out of the context of the poetry of the hymns, then I might reconsider.

Of course, we are very vehement in teaching what the Theotokos is not in addition to what she is.  I just feel that our language can be equally misconstrued by the simple minded people.
Dr. Miravelle, Maxmillian Kolbe, and several of their supreme pontiffs do not count as "the simple minded people."  I expect no more of them than to display the same intelligence shown by dirt poor, uneducated, illiterate Coptic peasants.

Roman Catholics outnumber us by a vast number.  It's no surprise you might easily find some fringe elements that might give way to heresies like the "quasi-incarnation of the Holy Spirit" or Vassula's alleged beliefs.

I think we just need to be a bit more charitable in our discussions with Roman Catholics.  If they make it clear from their teachings something they don't approve, or how to properly interpret certain phrases, then we should argue based on those merits.  That's all.

And yet they put these "misinterpretations," brought to them in visions, front and center. In other words, no, they don't make it clear they don't approve.  Quite the contrary, as Ozgeorge's quote from their supreme pontiff Pius XII shows.

Of course, I don't have nearly as much knowledge as you do when it comes to Roman Catholic history.  So I may be wrong in the end concerning giving Roman Catholics the benefit of the doubt.  But at least, so far, we have not yet had a Catholic who believed in bizarre Vassula Ryden beliefs posting here.
We had one of their priests post that he found nothing objectionable in her.

As for depictions of the Theotokos on the Crucifix, where do you find this?  And maybe I missed it here, but I'm sure the Roman Catholics posting here won't approve of it.
Look at their reaction and defense of the "Lady of All Nations."
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« Reply #362 on: February 05, 2011, 09:35:49 PM »

If anyone gets tired of all the Catholic bashing and wants an actual understanding of what we mean when we use the term "co-redemptrix," this site is quite informative: http://www.voxpopuli.org/response_to_7_common_objections_part1.php

I pulled up that site by doing a simple Google search. I am surprised no one else has ran across it. Of course, that is not nearly as much fun as taking snippets of a quote out of context and other forms of dishonesty so really I do not know why I am surprised.
I think Ozgeorge already linked to it, and I've referenced it and its source, Dr. Miravelle. Physician heal thyself.  Pure snake oil, from the Serpent himself.
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« Reply #363 on: February 05, 2011, 09:37:25 PM »

It is important to reinforce the following fact, regardless of what others might say about it.


The Church teaches that none are required to believe any of the apparitions or mystical experiences of any person, regardless of their rank in the Church.  

That fine print gets finer all the time.

Talk about legalism.
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« Reply #364 on: February 05, 2011, 09:39:30 PM »

Dr. Miravelle, Maxmillian Kolbe, and several of their supreme pontiffs do not count as "the simple minded people."  I expect no more of them than to display the same intelligence shown by dirt poor, uneducated, illiterate Coptic peasants.

....

And yet they put these "misinterpretations," brought to them in visions, front and center. In other words, no, they don't make it clear they don't approve.  Quite the contrary, as Ozgeorge's quote from their supreme pontiff Pius XII shows.

I'll get to that in a minute.

But I do agree there needs to be an official papal bull or decree or something ecumenical from the Roman Catholic side to quell any misinterpretations of who the Theotokos is and make very clear who she is not.

Quote
We had one of their priests post that he found nothing objectionable in her.

In all fairness, we have yet to find the true nature of this priest, if even the Catholics here find him acceptable or not.

Quote
Look at their reaction and defense of the "Lady of All Nations."

I admit I've been skimming through the past posts here.  But here's my first take at this phrase without reading the defenses here.  I find this phrase not really all that bad.  In fact, it sounds like something Egyptians would say to their own mothers.  "Ya sit el qol" (oh lady of all) or "ya sit el habayib" (oh lady of the beloved) is quite a common phrase of flattery for our elders.
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« Reply #365 on: February 05, 2011, 09:42:25 PM »


Of course, I don't have nearly as much knowledge as you do when it comes to Roman Catholic history.  So I may be wrong in the end concerning giving Roman Catholics the benefit of the doubt.  But at least, so far, we have not yet had a Catholic who believed in bizarre Vassula Ryden beliefs posting here.


This has to be said in all fairness to those who truly do know Catholic history and Catholic teaching...my Church's history and teaching.  

The knowledge that you refer to here can only be successfully displayed here.  If we put that knowledge to the test in a fair setting, with the truly knowledgeable respondents,  where one cannot simply cut, paste and point, where analysis counted as much as chronology, then there would be nothing but failure.  

The knowledge that you refer to cannot stand up in any venue but this one, for very obvious reasons.  And that is why you only find it on display here and not out challenging those with real knowledge, insight and, in some cases, real sanctity.  It is easy to play to an audience already convinced.

Mary
Can you restate this, with coherence, so it actually says something?
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« Reply #366 on: February 05, 2011, 09:59:30 PM »

If they make it clear from their teachings something they don't approve, or how to properly interpret certain phrases, then we should argue based on those merits. 

Will this do?

From MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI - ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII

Okay, let's take a look at this encyclical:

Quote
It was she, the second Eve,

I don't disagree.  She is the second Eve indeed.

Quote
who, free from all sin, original or personal,

I would disagree with this one.


Quote
and always more intimately united with her Son,

I suppose there's a special relationship between Christ and her, since she is His chosen mother.

Quote
offered Him on Golgotha to the Eternal Father for all the children of Adam, sin-stained by his unhappy fall, and her mother's rights and her mother's love were included in the holocaust.

I have to say this needs more clarification.  She was the altar of our God incarnate, Who came and offered Himself on Golgotha for the salvation of mankind.  If that's all they mean by this, that the "offering" was simply because He took flesh from her, and she took care of Him as a mother, then no need to discuss further.

As for the mother's rights and love included in suffering, that I admit needs more clarification.  I will say that she did suffer for seeing Christ suffer, as a "sword pierced her own soul."  She rejoiced and felt sad at the same time looking upon her Son and her God.  As long as this is a sign of veneration to her, not a sign of necessity for our salvation, as I've argued elsewhere before.

Quote
Thus she who, according to the flesh, was the mother of our Head, through the added title of pain and glory became, according to the Spirit, the mother of all His members.

She is the Mother of God, and we also call her the mother of the faithful.  She became our mother in a venerating sense.  Because Christ honored her, we honor her too.

Quote
She it was through her powerful prayers obtained that the spirit of our Divine Redeemer, already given on the Cross, should be bestowed, accompanied by miraculous gifts, on the newly founded Church at Pentecost;

This one I'm not sure about.  She is a powerful intercessor, but that the Holy Spirit be bestowed on the Church was already a divine plan, I think.  She may have prayed for salvation, but if it was specifically her idea that the Holy Spirit is to come, then I would certainly disagree, unless she like the rest of the disciples with her were fasting and praying after Christ's ascension for the coming the Holy Spirit that Christ already promised them.

Quote
and finally, bearing with courage and confidence the tremendous burden of her sorrows and desolation,

I think she was indeed courageous and confident, although suffering to see Christ suffer.

Quote
she, truly the Queen of Martyrs, more than all the faithful "filled up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ...for His Body, which is the Church"

Perhaps all the martyrs consider her their queen.  I don't know what the title exactly means.  But the verse where she was the best one to "fill up those things wanting of the sufferings of Christ," we do say she is the most perfect, glorified more than the Cherubim, honored more than the Seraphim.  Doesn't sound far off.

So so far, 2 statements in there I agree that make me cringe and some that might need clarification, but also some of the statements you bolded I didn't think were that too crazy, unless I'm reading it incorrectly.

So in the end, no, this clarification is not enough.  There needs to be a more straightforward clarification.
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« Reply #367 on: February 05, 2011, 10:04:08 PM »

If anyone gets tired of all the Catholic bashing and wants an actual understanding of what we mean when we use the term "co-redemptrix," this site is quite informative: http://www.voxpopuli.org/response_to_7_common_objections_part1.php

I pulled up that site by doing a simple Google search. I am surprised no one else has ran across it. Of course, that is not nearly as much fun as taking snippets of a quote out of context and other forms of dishonesty so really I do not know why I am surprised.
Uh huh. Is that supposed to prove that the Co-Redemptix doctrine isn't heresy and we've just "misunderstood"? Lets look at a few statements the apologist for this doctrine makes:
Quote
The New Testament prophecy of Simeon in the temple also reveals the suffering, co-redemptive mission of Mary in direct union with her Redeemer son in their one unified work of redemption: "Simeon blessed them, and said to Mary, his mother, 'Behold, this child is set for the fall and rise of many in Israel, and will be a sign of contradiction, and a sword shall pierce through your own soul, too" (Lk. 2:34-35). But the climax of Mary's role as Co-redemptrix under her divine son takes place at the foot of the Cross, where the total suffering of the mother's heart is obediently united to the suffering of the Son's heart in fulfillment of the Father's plan of redemption (cf. Gal. 4:4). As the fruit of this redemptive suffering, Mary is given by the crucified Savior as the spiritual mother of all peoples,: "Woman, behold your son!' Then he said to the disciple, 'behold, your mother!" (Jn. 19:27). As described by Pope John Paul II, Mary was "spiritually crucified with her crucified son" at Calvary, and "her role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son." [2] Even after the accomplishment of the acquisition of the graces of redemption at Calvary, Mary's co-redemptive role continues in the distribution of those saving graces to the hearts of humanity.
The mistake is obvious, and is based on the RC belief in "Merit", that is, that it was the pain and suffering of Christ (and His Mother) which was the "sacrifice" accepted by the Father to atone for sin. In her suffering, the RCs claim, the Theotokos not only "co-merited" our Salvation, but also "merited" her role as our Mother. The problem with this is that firstly, to believe it, you would have to accept the "atonement theory". Secondly, you would have to believe that we can somehow "merit" Graces.
The other problem is that this doctrine states that the Theotokos is given the role of "Mediatrix", that is, that all Grace (which, if you are Orthodox, is actually the Uncreated Divine Energies of the Trinity) are distributed by her, that is, the RC's are claiming that the Divine Energies emanate from the Trinity and must pass through the Theotokos before they can be given to us. Yet another another "double procession", "Virgoque"  if you will.
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« Reply #368 on: February 05, 2011, 10:18:08 PM »

The real question I have about these Marian definitions, mediatrix/co-redemptrix and others, is why are they necessary? In Orthodox theology, we define that Mary is ever-virgin and Theotokos. Both of these doctrine refer back to Christ and His nature and were necessary to combat rampant heresies. But how do these marian definitions point back to Christ and help us to understand Him better? To me, all they seem to accomplish is to elevate her status, role, and activity in the Christian life, and marginalize those of the Holy Spirit and Christ.



My thoughts, exactly. Why over define those things upon which the foundation of the Faith was determined in the days of the ancient Fathers and the Councils of the undivided Church? I don't get it.
Well said both of you.
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« Reply #369 on: February 05, 2011, 10:18:49 PM »

The Catholic Church never has nor will it ever teach that Mary died on the cross for our sins.

The Catholic Church used to teach that self-mutilation was a sin ... well, until Sister Margaret Mary Alacoque was canonized by the same Pope who pronounced Papal Infallibility at Vatican I.  The Internet has accelerated acceptance of such teachings from Centuries (about 190 in Saint Margaret Mary Alacoque's case) to slightly more than 6 years (the Beatification of Pope John Paul II).  So, if devotees of Mary being crucified on the cross have their way ... a future Pope will issue an infallible encyclical stating Mary's crucifixion as fact and we're back to 1984 where history can be rewritten to suit those in power and influence (e.g. future heads of state of Vatican City).

That is heretical to us and you know it is so stop being dishonest.

You said that schism has "blinded us (e.g. Eastern Orthodox)" so who are you to tell us what is Truth and what isn't or what is heresy (even by your standards) and what isn't?   Huh

One picture that shows Mary with stigmata wounds has absolutely no bearing on what the Catholic Church teaches and you know it. You just enjoy trolling.

What about those Catholic Clergy and Hierarchy who venerate that image?  One of them may be the Pope who makes that teaching, yup, INFALLIBLE.
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« Reply #370 on: February 05, 2011, 10:28:26 PM »

If anyone gets tired of all the Catholic bashing and wants an actual understanding of what we mean when we use the term "co-redemptrix," this site is quite informative: http://www.voxpopuli.org/response_to_7_common_objections_part1.php

I see why you didn't cite Part 2 or Part 3.  The following snippets from Part 2 is enough for the Orthodox:

Quote
Vatican II repeatedly teaches Mary's unique participation in the redemption of Jesus Christ:

or Part 3:

Quote
In his homily on the Feast of Immaculate Conception in the cathedral in Krakow, Karol Cardinal Wojtyla (the present pontiff) well summarized this Marian truth: "In order to be the Co­redemptrix, she was first the Immaculate Conception."
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« Reply #371 on: February 05, 2011, 10:35:59 PM »

And that is why you only find it on display here and not out challenging those with real knowledge, insight and, in some cases, real sanctity.  It is easy to play to an audience already convinced.

You are asking Orthodox why they do not personally challenge the beliefs of Roman/Eastern Catholic Church with Roman/Eastern Catholic laity, Clergy and Hierarchy in public places besides an Internet Forum?

If a homeless person spouted incorrect things about the Immaculate Conception or prayed to Saint Margaret Mary Alacoque to protect Lindsay Lohan, would you take the time to correct him/her, continue on your normal business or judge that individual as crazy?   Huh
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« Reply #372 on: February 05, 2011, 10:54:43 PM »

If a homeless person spouted incorrect things about the Immaculate Conception or prayed to Saint Margaret Mary Alacoque to protect Lindsay Lohan, would you take the time to correct him/her, continue on your normal business or judge that individual as crazy?   Huh
I couldn't care less what Catholics choose to believe; they are free to believe whatever they want to believe. However when they start claiming that the Eastern Orthodox believe the same thing or that their heretical doctrines are somehow no different to Eastern Orthodoxy, and that we reject them simply because we "misunderstand them", I take issue.
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« Reply #373 on: February 05, 2011, 11:03:01 PM »

If a homeless person spouted incorrect things about the Immaculate Conception or prayed to Saint Margaret Mary Alacoque to protect Lindsay Lohan, would you take the time to correct him/her, continue on your normal business or judge that individual as crazy?   Huh
I couldn't care less what Catholics choose to believe; they are free to believe whatever they want to believe.

The Catholics have exercised that freedom to choose quite well.   Smiley

However when they start claiming that the Eastern Orthodox believe the same thing or that their heretical doctrines are somehow no different to Eastern Orthodoxy, and that we reject them simply because we "misunderstand them", I take issue.

Agreed.   Smiley
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« Reply #374 on: February 06, 2011, 12:12:58 AM »

I couldn't care less what Catholics choose to believe; they are free to believe whatever they want to believe. However when they start claiming that the Eastern Orthodox believe the same thing or that their heretical doctrines are somehow no different to Eastern Orthodoxy, and that we reject them simply because we "misunderstand them", I take issue.

/\  Kissing your feet. laugh  These are the very issues on which I and others have battled Elijahmaria again and again.
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« Reply #375 on: February 06, 2011, 12:15:14 AM »

Dr. Miravelle, Maxmillian Kolbe, and several of their supreme pontiffs do not count as "the simple minded people."  I expect no more of them than to display the same intelligence shown by dirt poor, uneducated, illiterate Coptic peasants.

....

And yet they put these "misinterpretations," brought to them in visions, front and center. In other words, no, they don't make it clear they don't approve.  Quite the contrary, as Ozgeorge's quote from their supreme pontiff Pius XII shows.

I'll get to that in a minute.

But I do agree there needs to be an official papal bull or decree or something ecumenical from the Roman Catholic side to quell any misinterpretations of who the Theotokos is and make very clear who she is not.

Should be, but there won't be, as that is not how the Vatican operates.

Look at their reaction and defense of the "Lady of All Nations."

I admit I've been skimming through the past posts here.  But here's my first take at this phrase without reading the defenses here.  I find this phrase not really all that bad.  In fact, it sounds like something Egyptians would say to their own mothers.  "Ya sit el qol" (oh lady of all) or "ya sit el habayib" (oh lady of the beloved) is quite a common phrase of flattery for our elders.
Like this
But the card that the Professor displays here is not a usual or frequently found image.  I have never seen anything like it before.
Oh you'll be seeing more of them. Your Church has started placing parishes under the patronage of the "Lady of All Nations":
http://www.camborne-redruth-parish.org/Our_Parish_Patron.html
http://www.ladyofallnations-bali.com/en.default.asp
And your clergy are venerating it:

Compare
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 12:16:21 AM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #376 on: February 06, 2011, 12:16:11 AM »

I'm getting tired just watching you guys argue!  Tongue
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« Reply #377 on: February 06, 2011, 12:21:44 AM »


...will cause us to "receive God's judgment [sic]". 


He's allowed to spell it that way, George.  Americans drop the e out of judgement.
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« Reply #378 on: February 06, 2011, 12:28:45 AM »

Father Ambrose, please confirm to me if that is indeed a scepter in the Virgin's hand


Yes, it is a sceptre.    It was a comforting thought for believers that at the Revolution when the demonic powers took control of Orthodox Russia that the heavenly realm still overshadowed Russia even though the Tsar anointed by God had been removed.
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« Reply #379 on: February 06, 2011, 12:32:40 AM »


...will cause us to "receive God's judgment [sic]".


He's allowed to spell it that way, George.  Americans drop the e out of judgement.

Aha!  I knew I wasn't misspelling it!  Take that little red squiggly lines!

Sorry, off topic, but me and my spelling correction software don't always see eye to eye.
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« Reply #380 on: February 06, 2011, 12:40:27 AM »


...will cause us to "receive God's judgment [sic]". 


He's allowed to spell it that way, George.  Americans drop the e out of judgement.
I see. Literally poor judgement! Grin
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« Reply #381 on: February 06, 2011, 01:01:46 AM »

If anyone gets tired of all the Catholic bashing and wants an actual understanding of what we mean when we use the term "co-redemptrix," this site is quite informative: http://www.voxpopuli.org/response_to_7_common_objections_part1.php

I pulled up that site by doing a simple Google search. I am surprised no one else has ran across it. Of course, that is not nearly as much fun as taking snippets of a quote out of context and other forms of dishonesty so really I do not know why I am surprised.
I think Ozgeorge already linked to it, and I've referenced it and its source, Dr. Miravelle. Physician heal thyself.  Pure snake oil, from the Serpent himself.
And probably twisted some snippets to say what he wanted them to say so he can "prove" how heretical we are.
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« Reply #382 on: February 06, 2011, 01:01:46 AM »

It is important to reinforce the following fact, regardless of what others might say about it.


The Church teaches that none are required to believe any of the apparitions or mystical experiences of any person, regardless of their rank in the Church.  

That fine print gets finer all the time.

Talk about legalism.
Too bad we can't leave everything undefined and as a grey area like the Eastern Orthodox. Darned the luck! LOL.
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« Reply #383 on: February 06, 2011, 01:01:46 AM »

If they make it clear from their teachings something they don't approve, or how to properly interpret certain phrases, then we should argue based on those merits. 

Will this do?

From MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI - ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII
"It was she, the second Eve, who, free from all sin, original or personal, and always more intimately united with her Son, offered Him on Golgotha to the Eternal Father for all the children of Adam, sin-stained by his unhappy fall, and her mother's rights and her mother's love were included in the holocaust. Thus she who, according to the flesh, was the mother of our Head, through the added title of pain and glory became, according to the Spirit, the mother of all His members. She it was through her powerful prayers obtained that the spirit of our Divine Redeemer, already given on the Cross, should be bestowed, accompanied by miraculous gifts, on the newly founded Church at Pentecost; and finally, bearing with courage and confidence the tremendous burden of her sorrows and desolation, she, truly the Queen of Martyrs, more than all the faithful "filled up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ...for His Body, which is the Church" "
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html


You'll have to do more than point and grunt if you actually want a response from the Catholics here.

M.
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« Reply #384 on: February 06, 2011, 01:01:48 AM »

Father Ambrose, please confirm to me if that is indeed a scepter in the Virgin's hand


Yes, it is a sceptre.    It was a comforting thought for believers that at the Revolution when the demonic powers took control of Orthodox Russia that the heavenly realm still overshadowed Russia even though the Tsar anointed by God had been removed.

But no offense...the icon is confirming the communist takeover and does not comfort me since the Virgin does not bear the Scep ter,the Throne, is not Lord of the World to come, etc. the Messiah is all these, and these symbols are placed on her in this icon.
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« Reply #385 on: February 06, 2011, 01:15:45 AM »

If they make it clear from their teachings something they don't approve, or how to properly interpret certain phrases, then we should argue based on those merits. 

Will this do?

From MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI - ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII
"It was she, the second Eve, who, free from all sin, original or personal, and always more intimately united with her Son, offered Him on Golgotha to the Eternal Father for all the children of Adam, sin-stained by his unhappy fall, and her mother's rights and her mother's love were included in the holocaust. Thus she who, according to the flesh, was the mother of our Head, through the added title of pain and glory became, according to the Spirit, the mother of all His members. She it was through her powerful prayers obtained that the spirit of our Divine Redeemer, already given on the Cross, should be bestowed, accompanied by miraculous gifts, on the newly founded Church at Pentecost; and finally, bearing with courage and confidence the tremendous burden of her sorrows and desolation, she, truly the Queen of Martyrs, more than all the faithful "filled up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ...for His Body, which is the Church" "
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html


You'll have to do more than point and grunt if you actually want a response from the Catholics here.
The Catholics have responded.

As for you Vatican folk, you just need to submit to these words of your supreme pontiff.
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« Reply #386 on: February 06, 2011, 01:16:59 AM »

If anyone gets tired of all the Catholic bashing and wants an actual understanding of what we mean when we use the term "co-redemptrix," this site is quite informative: http://www.voxpopuli.org/response_to_7_common_objections_part1.php

I pulled up that site by doing a simple Google search. I am surprised no one else has ran across it. Of course, that is not nearly as much fun as taking snippets of a quote out of context and other forms of dishonesty so really I do not know why I am surprised.
I think Ozgeorge already linked to it, and I've referenced it and its source, Dr. Miravelle. Physician heal thyself.  Pure snake oil, from the Serpent himself.
And probably twisted some snippets to say what he wanted them to say so he can "prove" how heretical we are.
Ozgeorge doesn't have to twist a thing. The "Co-redemtrix" nonsense is all twisted enough already.
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« Reply #387 on: February 06, 2011, 01:35:44 AM »

If they make it clear from their teachings something they don't approve, or how to properly interpret certain phrases, then we should argue based on those merits.  

Will this do?

From MYSTICI CORPORIS CHRISTI - ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII
"It was she, the second Eve, who, free from all sin, original or personal, and always more intimately united with her Son, offered Him on Golgotha to the Eternal Father for all the children of Adam, sin-stained by his unhappy fall, and her mother's rights and her mother's love were included in the holocaust. Thus she who, according to the flesh, was the mother of our Head, through the added title of pain and glory became, according to the Spirit, the mother of all His members. She it was through her powerful prayers obtained that the spirit of our Divine Redeemer, already given on the Cross, should be bestowed, accompanied by miraculous gifts, on the newly founded Church at Pentecost; and finally, bearing with courage and confidence the tremendous burden of her sorrows and desolation, she, truly the Queen of Martyrs, more than all the faithful "filled up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ...for His Body, which is the Church" "
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/pius_xii/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-xii_enc_29061943_mystici-corporis-christi_en.html


You'll have to do more than point and grunt if you actually want a response from the Catholics here.

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« Reply #388 on: February 06, 2011, 01:38:12 AM »

Double post.
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« Reply #389 on: February 06, 2011, 02:07:42 AM »

Should be, but there won't be, as that is not how the Vatican operates.

Let us pray one day it will then.

Quote
Like this
But the card that the Professor displays here is not a usual or frequently found image.  I have never seen anything like it before.
Oh you'll be seeing more of them. Your Church has started placing parishes under the patronage of the "Lady of All Nations":
http://www.camborne-redruth-parish.org/Our_Parish_Patron.html
http://www.ladyofallnations-bali.com/en.default.asp
And your clergy are venerating it:

Compare


Oh that....the way it was worded I thought some people actually drew an icon of her crucified or something...

...Well, I can see how where we come from with our iconographic tradition this could be blasphemy.  For one thing, we always draw a halo with a cross around Christ to represent Him as quite unique from all the rest, as God incarnate literally.  If we use this motif on this icon, certainly the implications are disastrous.

Secondly, I agree, we never had an icon with a saint presented in front of a cross to begin with.  They would carry crosses, but not be in front of them.  So from that vantage point, it's actually odd.

So, ya, I understand where you're coming from with this icon.  I will say there is a problem with it from an Eastern perspective.  What does the West think it means?  That's the question now we need to ask them.

As for her representation standing over the world, well, that can be symbolic for them.  Once again, to us the motif sounds like she rules the world as God does, but to the West, it might mean something else.

Then again, after all this rambling, it could be a bunch of vagante priests.  I just want to share with you about a comment you made earlier about Coptic peasants.  Sometimes their ideas can carry on also to certain Coptic priests that are thankfully disciplined by our bishops.  But we can have some faulty priests, no doubt about that.

So is the Vatican slow to respond?  Perhaps.  I don't know.  It seems the Vatican has other issues to deal with apparently.  But maybe some resident Catholics who fear this issue should bring it up to their bishops or cardinals.  And if that doesn't work, then certainly they should have a strong case against at least their local Roman Catholic parishes.
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« Reply #390 on: February 06, 2011, 02:19:44 AM »

If anyone gets tired of all the Catholic bashing and wants an actual understanding of what we mean when we use the term "co-redemptrix," this site is quite informative: http://www.voxpopuli.org/response_to_7_common_objections_part1.php

I pulled up that site by doing a simple Google search. I am surprised no one else has ran across it. Of course, that is not nearly as much fun as taking snippets of a quote out of context and other forms of dishonesty so really I do not know why I am surprised.
It seems like they are having a hay day answering amongst themselves. The fire (RC bashing) will eventually burn itself out.
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« Reply #391 on: February 06, 2011, 02:21:35 AM »

So is the Vatican slow to respond?  Perhaps.  I don't know.  It seems the Vatican has other issues to deal with apparently.  But maybe some resident Catholics who fear this issue should bring it up to their bishops or cardinals.  And if that doesn't work, then certainly they should have a strong case against at least their local Roman Catholic parishes.

And risk excommunication by their Hierarchy and permanent damnation from the Pope's infallible teachings by challenging these man-made teachings ... might as well say a few more Ave Marias....
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« Reply #392 on: February 06, 2011, 02:25:56 AM »

If anyone gets tired of all the Catholic bashing and wants an actual understanding of what we mean when we use the term "co-redemptrix," this site is quite informative: http://www.voxpopuli.org/response_to_7_common_objections_part1.php

I pulled up that site by doing a simple Google search. I am surprised no one else has ran across it. Of course, that is not nearly as much fun as taking snippets of a quote out of context and other forms of dishonesty so really I do not know why I am surprised.
Seems like they are having fun answering themselves. The fire will eventually burn itself out.

Orthodox Christians won't be excommunicated by their Hierarchs (those who haven't absconded for Rome)  for disputing what we see as heresy; however, I can't speak for what your Hierarchy will do to you when challenged with the Truth....
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« Reply #393 on: February 06, 2011, 02:26:37 AM »

So is the Vatican slow to respond?  Perhaps.  I don't know.  It seems the Vatican has other issues to deal with apparently.  But maybe some resident Catholics who fear this issue should bring it up to their bishops or cardinals.  And if that doesn't work, then certainly they should have a strong case against at least their local Roman Catholic parishes.

And risk excommunication by their Hierarchy and permanent damnation from the Pope's infallible teachings by challenging these man-made teachings ... might as well say a few more Ave Marias....
I say Ave Maria every night..Ave Maria gratia plena...
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« Reply #394 on: February 06, 2011, 02:31:08 AM »

If anyone gets tired of all the Catholic bashing and wants an actual understanding of what we mean when we use the term "co-redemptrix," this site is quite informative: http://www.voxpopuli.org/response_to_7_common_objections_part1.php

I pulled up that site by doing a simple Google search. I am surprised no one else has ran across it. Of course, that is not nearly as much fun as taking snippets of a quote out of context and other forms of dishonesty so really I do not know why I am surprised.
Seems like they are having fun answering themselves. The fire will eventually burn itself out.

Orthodox Christians won't be excommunicated by their Hierarchs (those who haven't absconded for Rome)  for disputing what we see as heresy; however, I can't speak for what your Hierarchy will do to you when challenged with the Truth....
What you see as truth is irrelevant in my opinion. You say you have the fullness of truth, I disagree. But don't worry about me being excommunicated. Worry about your own salvation.
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« Reply #395 on: February 06, 2011, 02:43:01 AM »

If anyone gets tired of all the Catholic bashing and wants an actual understanding of what we mean when we use the term "co-redemptrix," this site is quite informative: http://www.voxpopuli.org/response_to_7_common_objections_part1.php

I pulled up that site by doing a simple Google search. I am surprised no one else has ran across it. Of course, that is not nearly as much fun as taking snippets of a quote out of context and other forms of dishonesty so really I do not know why I am surprised.
Seems like they are having fun answering themselves. The fire will eventually burn itself out.

Orthodox Christians won't be excommunicated by their Hierarchs (those who haven't absconded for Rome)  for disputing what we see as heresy; however, I can't speak for what your Hierarchy will do to you when challenged with the Truth....
What you see as truth is irrelevant in my opinion. You say you have the fullness of truth, I disagree. But don't worry about me being excommunicated. Worry about your own salvation.

I don't care if any Roman/Eastern Catholic is excommunicated for challenging their Hierarchy on the Marian beliefs mentioned in this thread ...

The Orthodox have fullness of truth; Since the 12th Century, Catholicism is just an extension of the Scientific Method:

Hypothesis: a young female teenager cuts herself because no one understands her.
Proof: She tells people Jesus removed her heart, placed it on His heart, reinstalled it and gives her a binding legal document saying that her heart belongs to Him.
Immediate Outcome: She cuts herself 192 times in 16 years due to monthly pains.
Final Outcome: Sainthood and eternal veneration and purging of the Hypothesis....
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« Reply #396 on: February 06, 2011, 02:55:57 AM »

If anyone gets tired of all the Catholic bashing and wants an actual understanding of what we mean when we use the term "co-redemptrix," this site is quite informative: http://www.voxpopuli.org/response_to_7_common_objections_part1.php

I pulled up that site by doing a simple Google search. I am surprised no one else has ran across it. Of course, that is not nearly as much fun as taking snippets of a quote out of context and other forms of dishonesty so really I do not know why I am surprised.
Seems like they are having fun answering themselves. The fire will eventually burn itself out.

Orthodox Christians won't be excommunicated by their Hierarchs (those who haven't absconded for Rome)  for disputing what we see as heresy; however, I can't speak for what your Hierarchy will do to you when challenged with the Truth....
What you see as truth is irrelevant in my opinion. You say you have the fullness of truth, I disagree. But don't worry about me being excommunicated. Worry about your own salvation.

I don't care if any Roman/Eastern Catholic is excommunicated for challenging their Hierarchy on the Marian beliefs mentioned in this thread ...

The Orthodox have fullness of truth; Since the 12th Century, Catholicism is just an extension of the Scientific Method:

Hypothesis: a young female teenager cuts herself because no one understands her.
Proof: She tells people Jesus removed her heart, placed it on His heart, reinstalled it and gives her a binding legal document saying that her heart belongs to Him.
Immediate Outcome: She cuts herself 192 times in 16 years due to monthly pains.
Final Outcome: Sainthood and eternal veneration and purging of the Hypothesis....

Wonderful.
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« Reply #397 on: February 06, 2011, 03:20:17 AM »

I can't stress it enough ,Catholics Worship a Different jesus and venerate/worship a different mary, definitely not the same as Ours Scriptural Orthodox Holy Isus Hristos and Blessed Theotokos...

Roman Catholic Church Vatican and it's faithful  are Chasing after Spooks , shades , spectres, evil spirits, demons that go bump in the night ,that masqurade as jesus and mary, and leading them astry by giving them false doctrine, that they accept hook line and sinker.....

How Is Holy Orthodoxy going to reunite with all this Garbage, that's infected the Roman Catholic Church ,since they started accepting what these
apparitions have been preaching to them, then, now, and God only Knows what's coming tomorrow.......Rome has lost is way.....It's not the Church of the Holy Apostles and The holy Fathers faith once delivered unto salvation ,,But the Church of New Revelations and strange doctrines,unknown to the Holy fathers Faith Once Delivered....... Huh

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« Reply #398 on: February 06, 2011, 08:29:58 AM »

What say all of the wrong idea peddled by some that the Virgin Mary never died but just ascended like Christ to the heavens? It is a key connection to the co-redemptrix business since it allows some to say that a person other than Christ did not need a saviour.
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« Reply #399 on: February 06, 2011, 12:19:18 PM »

As if open heart surgery Christ and the Theotokos wasn't enough, we get a vision to through in the God the Father and the triangle halo:

I'm not buying the explanation of how He got a heart
Quote
I hold out My heart to give it to humanity, to all My children in a last and desperate attempt to save their souls and restore life to My children.  I desire that people venerate the image of My Fatherly Sacred Heart.  I desire that people place this picture alongside the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary painting and pictures.  I desire to be venerated in the homes.  Every family should honor the heart of the Father, for it is out of the heart of the Father that I sent you My only begotten Son to save and redeem humanity.  Today, I give My heart as a symbol of My love and to draw them back to My Spirit which I give freely through Jesus and the Holy Spirit.  Come back to My heart, live in My kingdom, and receive My true peace.  For this to happen, people must venerate and acknowledge My Fatherly Sacred Heart.  Oh, how so often it is spoken of in Holy Scriptures, yet no one pays any attention to it.

My heart is real!  It truly beats and longs for all My children to be in My kingdom and free from sin and Satan.  My heart yearned to send the Savior, My Son, into the world, and through that I send also, through My heart, your only mother, your Most Holy Mother, and she loves you so much and desires you to return back to the Kingdom of Heaven also.  I desire that through this painting, great conversions will be given, and that the family that venerates Me and My Fatherly Sacred Heart will receive grace in abundance...

....Let Me explain, My dear beloved children.  My Will always existed, but yet no one has knowledge of what I desire of them.  They do not know where to go or where to turn in their life.  I am there!  I am here!  Ask Me, "What is Your Will, Oh Heavenly Father?" and I will reveal to you what My Will is for you.  I will open doors to the poor.  I will open doors to the lonely, for all those who venerate My Fatherly Sacred Heart.  And to promulgate this devotion, I desire that people, when they receive an image of this painting, that they go before it, pray, first from your heart, whatever comes to your heart, and pray an "Our Father" and mean it!  You cannot error if you pray the "Our Father", for the "Our Father" is the most perfect Will (prayer?) to Me, perfect in prayer and perfect in unity to My Will.  (And there's a big light.  It's engulfing the Father.  It's a big, big light.  It's landing on the painting!  The painting is coming to life.  He's alive!  He's right there where the painting is!)

My heart I give to humanity.  Take up My heart by living the gospels of My Son and by living every word of Sacred Scripture.  Receive My heart, My dear ones, by loving Me and accepting Me as your Father.  All graces come to you through Me first.  I am the Father.  I am God.  Every grace I give, I give to you.  I also give through Jesus, My Son who is the second person of the Most Holy Trinity, and through Our Lady, your Most Holy Mother.  I give you My heart.  Do not blaspheme My heart.  Do not mock Me.  Never tempt Me, for My eyes see all.  For those who love Me, I shall bless.  For those who hate Me, I shall curse.  I desire to give you My heart, but you must receive it in a state of grace.  You must be willing to love unconditionally.

I shall bless you, My dear little ones, with the blessing of My heart.  (He's taking a flame from His heart!  Yes, there's a flame in His hand!)  Just one single speck of this flame can purify you and give you all the graces that you will need.  Come to Me every day so that each day I may give to you new flames of graces and purification.  This is My blessing for you.  (He threw it! He says,)

The flame that you have received is going into you. (He's making the Sign of the Cross, in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit.)
and then "He" drags us into this mess
Quote
Now I shall depart, but before I shall depart, I desire to tell you that I mourn over the separation of churches, especially the Orthodox and Catholic churches.  Everyone should realize that they are one Church united through My Son and dwell within My heart.  The separation of the churches is of your own doing.  I desire to save humanity, but it is humanity's choice whether they will receive My heart or reject it.  If they reject it, the greatest chastisement that I will send upon humanity will be to forsake you.  I will leave you to your own doing.  This is the worst punishment ever because I have always dwelt with My people throughout all times.  But when My people did not listen, even in the Old Testament, I departed from them.  So do not be concerned about worldly goods, but be concerned about the love you have for Me, My Son, the Holy Spirit, and your Blessed Mother.

Now I shall bless you again and depart, (in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Amen.)
http://www.movingheartfoundation.com/SacredHeartOfGodTheFatherStoryOfThePainting.htm
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« Reply #400 on: February 06, 2011, 03:59:48 PM »

Isa : I Have a Catholic Publication Titled ,The Father Speaks to His Children...Pater Publications C.P.135,Via Veretti 1-67100 L'Aquila - Italy...
Iprimatur:+ Petrus Caisius van Lierde,Vie Generalis e Vic. Civitatas Vaticanae, Roma die 13  Martii 1989


In the booklet From reading Parts of it ,The Father is Envious , sort of jealous Of the Son, because the son has more churches named after him, and He the Father hardly has if any at all.....It just Doesn't sound right to me... Huh

In the contents it says...

Preface.......3
Short Biography of Mother Eugenia .....
Bishop Calliots Testimony.......

The Fathers Message.....


In the back of the booklet it says....


We feel it is our duty to publish a message , given to the world by God the Father through one of his creatures who loves Him so much ,Sister Eugenia Elisababetta Ravasio and recognized as valid by the Church....
We are sure that this message will help people the deep tenderness the Father has for each one of us , and we hope that it will recieve the widest possable circulation......
                    (Fr. Andrea D' Ascanio, OFM Cap)
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 04:32:15 PM by stashko » Logged

ГОСПОДЕ ГОСПОДЕ ,ПОГЛЕДАЈ СА НЕБА ,ДОЂИ И ПОСЕТИ ТВОЈ ВИНОГРАД ТВОЈА ДЕСНИЦА ПОСАДИЛА АМИН АМИН.
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« Reply #401 on: February 06, 2011, 05:42:24 PM »

What say all of the wrong idea peddled by some that the Virgin Mary never died but just ascended like Christ to the heavens? It is a key connection to the co-redemptrix business since it allows some to say that a person other than Christ did not need a saviour.
She did not ascend nor do we teach that she did. She was assumed. There is a difference:


Ascension = going bodily to heaven by one's own power (what Christ did since He is God the Son)

Assumption = taken bodily to heaven by God (what happened to Elijah, Enoch, and the Theotokos)
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« Reply #402 on: February 06, 2011, 07:49:14 PM »

I have read this thread with some interest.  As a Latin Rite Catholic I find much of what has been discussed quite disturbing, and I am speaking about the "over the top" Marian devotions and not the increasingly volatile disagreement between the Orthodox here and the Latins.

I do NOT believe in the co-redeemer, crucified Mary, Mary equal to Jesus, etc,. etc., etc., being profferred by some in my Church.  I agree with those who feel that such Marian devotion is far from the original apostolic teachings of the Church, and it makes me nervous.  Contrary to the beliefs of some here, not all of those of us brought up in the Latin tradition consider Mary anything other than what she is, the mother of Jesus, and an intermediary between us and her son who we can ask to pray for us.  For me that's it.  The icon of Mary on a cross is VERY disturbing to me, as it clearly is to many of you here.

The first time I heard the Co-Redeemer comment I was shocked.  I was catechized back in the early 60's by very traditional Carmelite nuns, known for their Marian devotion, and I never heard anything like this.  I believe that this is a post VatII idea, much advanced by John-Paul.  For myself it is NOT dogma in the Church.  If, as some say, some future Church were to present it as such, I could not accept it, and unfortunately perhaps excommunicate myself in so doing.

I am here because there are many things happening in my new "liberal" Church which I cannot reconcile.  I am NOT here to "bad mouth" my Church, as I try my best to keep communion with her, but I am also not blind to the changes taking place.

Mary is certainly a part of the Christian "story", but I believe the feminist/liberal mindset of today is what is driving this new manner of "glorifying" her.  We need a "goddess" to satisfy our "inclusive" political correctness I'm afraid. She has always been part of the Catholic devotions, but methinks the whole thing is being taken into areas that detract from our devotion to and dependence on God, and are therefore wrong.  None of this is Church dogma.  Because a Pope believes it does not make it so, nor does it make it a dogma of the Church.

I am not trying to ingratiate myself with anyone here.  I am only concerned with my own spiritual journey.  I just felt the need to say that some of us on the Latin side of the fence find this all as troubling as many of you do.

Regards,
William Unland
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« Reply #403 on: February 06, 2011, 08:12:41 PM »

I have read this thread with some interest.  As a Latin Rite Catholic I find much of what has been discussed quite disturbing, and I am speaking about the "over the top" Marian devotions and not the increasingly volatile disagreement between the Orthodox here and the Latins.

I do NOT believe in the co-redeemer, crucified Mary, Mary equal to Jesus, etc,. etc., etc., being profferred by some in my Church.  I agree with those who feel that such Marian devotion is far from the original apostolic teachings of the Church, and it makes me nervous.  Contrary to the beliefs of some here, not all of those of us brought up in the Latin tradition consider Mary anything other than what she is, the mother of Jesus, and an intermediary between us and her son who we can ask to pray for us.  For me that's it.  The icon of Mary on a cross is VERY disturbing to me, as it clearly is to many of you here.

The first time I heard the Co-Redeemer comment I was shocked.  I was catechized back in the early 60's by very traditional Carmelite nuns, known for their Marian devotion, and I never heard anything like this.  I believe that this is a post VatII idea, much advanced by John-Paul.  For myself it is NOT dogma in the Church.  If, as some say, some future Church were to present it as such, I could not accept it, and unfortunately perhaps excommunicate myself in so doing.

I am here because there are many things happening in my new "liberal" Church which I cannot reconcile.  I am NOT here to "bad mouth" my Church, as I try my best to keep communion with her, but I am also not blind to the changes taking place.

Mary is certainly a part of the Christian "story", but I believe the feminist/liberal mindset of today is what is driving this new manner of "glorifying" her.  We need a "goddess" to satisfy our "inclusive" political correctness I'm afraid. She has always been part of the Catholic devotions, but methinks the whole thing is being taken into areas that detract from our devotion to and dependence on God, and are therefore wrong.  None of this is Church dogma.  Because a Pope believes it does not make it so, nor does it make it a dogma of the Church.

I am not trying to ingratiate myself with anyone here.  I am only concerned with my own spiritual journey.  I just felt the need to say that some of us on the Latin side of the fence find this all as troubling as many of you do.

Regards,
William Unland
I have to say, every time this topic came up that I saw on CAF (and it came up a lot) every poll had a majority against the "Co-redemptrix" dogma, and many spoke out against it. However, there was at the same time a sizable minority that was VERY persistent that it must be proclaimed, and who were not taking no for an answer. Dr. Mark Miravelle gives me the willies every time he speaks on this.  I have to ask, if he did worship the Theotokos, what would he do differently.
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If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
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                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #404 on: February 07, 2011, 05:05:11 AM »

I have read this thread with some interest.  As a Latin Rite Catholic I find much of what has been discussed quite disturbing, and I am speaking about the "over the top" Marian devotions and not the increasingly volatile disagreement between the Orthodox here and the Latins.

I do NOT believe in the co-redeemer, crucified Mary, Mary equal to Jesus, etc,. etc., etc., being profferred by some in my Church.  I agree with those who feel that such Marian devotion is far from the original apostolic teachings of the Church, and it makes me nervous.  Contrary to the beliefs of some here, not all of those of us brought up in the Latin tradition consider Mary anything other than what she is, the mother of Jesus, and an intermediary between us and her son who we can ask to pray for us.  For me that's it.  The icon of Mary on a cross is VERY disturbing to me, as it clearly is to many of you here.

The first time I heard the Co-Redeemer comment I was shocked.  I was catechized back in the early 60's by very traditional Carmelite nuns, known for their Marian devotion, and I never heard anything like this.  I believe that this is a post VatII idea, much advanced by John-Paul.  For myself it is NOT dogma in the Church.  If, as some say, some future Church were to present it as such, I could not accept it, and unfortunately perhaps excommunicate myself in so doing.

I am here because there are many things happening in my new "liberal" Church which I cannot reconcile.  I am NOT here to "bad mouth" my Church, as I try my best to keep communion with her, but I am also not blind to the changes taking place.

Mary is certainly a part of the Christian "story", but I believe the feminist/liberal mindset of today is what is driving this new manner of "glorifying" her.  We need a "goddess" to satisfy our "inclusive" political correctness I'm afraid. She has always been part of the Catholic devotions, but methinks the whole thing is being taken into areas that detract from our devotion to and dependence on God, and are therefore wrong.  None of this is Church dogma.  Because a Pope believes it does not make it so, nor does it make it a dogma of the Church.

I am not trying to ingratiate myself with anyone here.  I am only concerned with my own spiritual journey.  I just felt the need to say that some of us on the Latin side of the fence find this all as troubling as many of you do.

Regards,
William Unland

I saw your other thread- you should try a ROCOR parish, they are very nice.
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