Author Topic: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God  (Read 34393 times)

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Offline Justin Kissel

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #270 on: February 05, 2011, 03:23:16 AM »
Yeah, disheartening...
"My doubt in Christ is not like that of a child; it was forged in a furnace of faith." - Dostoevsky

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #271 on: February 05, 2011, 03:24:58 AM »
And substantiated by the greatest theologian of the Church, no less.

Pope Benedict XV declared: "The Church has declared Thomas' doctrines to be her own."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Aquinas

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #272 on: February 05, 2011, 08:30:47 AM »
The expression "Immaculate Heart" isn't a "disection", it's just -

oh, what's the point.
Do go on. When you say "Immaculate Heart", what you really mean is....
And aren't these doctrines of the "Immaculate Heart" and the "Sacred Heart" based on yet more "private revelation" which supposedly Roman Catholics are not "obliged" to believe?
Oh for Pete's sake, we venerate the Immaculate Heart of Mary because, in classical thought, the heart was the essence of the person. It would be a bit like saying we love the Blessed Mother's soul. We would not literally mean we love her soul to the exclusion of the rest of her. I think if anyone but the Catholic Church had such a devotion people would not pick over it as they do.
The Hindus worship the phallus of Shiva
and the genetalia of Kali
the last making me shudder at the thought of development of doctrine like the immaculate heart ever latching onto the virginity of the Holy Theotokos.

btw, Kali is not a virgin
they have a big festival in June celebrating the earth (Kali is a Earth mother goddess)'s menstruation.

I find Sacred Heart devotions to be foreign and I don't really understand them. However, other than being quite inflammatory, I fail to see how posting pictures of Mayan or Hindu pagan rites can make debate points on these issues that would do anything to cause one to rethink one's position. The Puritans made the same type of arguments about celebrating Christmas and its origins.

How about assuring us that a saint's visions are demonic?  How is that for civil?



Where is the post that I sent along with this one reminding everyone that nowhere in the Roman rite and ritual do they ask the Mother of God to save them. 

So it is not at all clear that the Roman rite and ritual are any more "dangerous" than Orthodox rites and rituals.

M.

Offline Rafa999

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #273 on: February 05, 2011, 08:30:47 AM »
The Miracle-Working Icon of the Mother of God of Sitka has God the Father at the top:



Is it orthodox to show the Heavenly Father (A spirit) on an icon? To depict him who none but the Son have direct knowledge of?
I am NOT a representative of the ACOE. Ignore my posts

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #274 on: February 05, 2011, 08:30:49 AM »
You don't see the insults because you're one of those who has been flinging them.

Historical accounts are being cited; how are those an "insult?"

I am so done with Orthodoxy now - this place has really poisoned it for me. :(  :(  :(

I'm sorry you feel that way.   :(  I'm sorry that learning the truth about your own faith has been painful and that is your personal choice.  As I told elijahmaria, the gap between Orthodox and Catholics is very wide regardless of the statements generated at Orthodox-Catholic Consultations.  Any attempts at "unity" are really attempts by the Vatican to shove a millennium worth of Papal Bulls, Papal Encyclicals and other legalistic directives down the throats of the Orthodox....

There's far more truth about the Orthodox on display here than any kind of truth about the Catholic Church.

Offline Wyatt

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #275 on: February 05, 2011, 08:30:49 AM »
Why so?  Catholics cannot practice birth control under severe and permanent penalties and can be canonized by performing self-mutilation in the names of Jesus and Mary?   ???
Permanent? Ever heard of the Sacrament of Confession?

This forum has been around for 8 years?  If such evidence is unearthed by our Catholic friends, we can deal with it when the time comes.
I don't feel the need to dig up dirt on your Church because I am charitable.

Blame Vassula.   ;)
Who does not speak for the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church, so your point?

Offline Wyatt

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #276 on: February 05, 2011, 08:43:29 AM »
Humanae Vitae doesn't condemn one to eternal damnation for self-mutilation ...
Sheesh...troll much?

You really have some anger issues when it comes to Humanae Vitae, which is funny because you constantly prove that you haven't the slightest idea what it is actually saying.

Offline Wyatt

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #277 on: February 05, 2011, 08:43:29 AM »
You don't see the insults because you're one of those who has been flinging them.

I am so done with Orthodoxy now - this place has really poisoned it for me. :(  :(  :(
Behold...the fruits of the sin of schism running rampant in this forum and they are all too blind to even see it.

Offline Wyatt

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #278 on: February 05, 2011, 08:43:29 AM »
Defended by Catholic laity:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33383.msg527435/#msg527435
The explanation I gave shows that it is not at all heretical. "Co-" in this case does not mean "equal to," it means "with" as in cooperated. That you want to consistently misrepresent Catholic teaching indicates that perhaps you are not that secure in your own faith.

Offline mike

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #279 on: February 05, 2011, 08:44:45 AM »
Is it orthodox to show the Heavenly Father (A spirit) on an icon? To depict him who none but the Son have direct knowledge of?

No.

Offline Ortho_cat

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #280 on: February 05, 2011, 08:57:21 AM »
Is it orthodox to show the Heavenly Father (A spirit) on an icon? To depict him who none but the Son have direct knowledge of?

No.

Definitely not as a rule of thumb, but that icon is definitely special.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #281 on: February 05, 2011, 09:06:23 AM »
Is it orthodox to show the Heavenly Father (A spirit) on an icon? To depict him who none but the Son have direct knowledge of?

Yes.  The Orthoodx have been painting such icons, in all Orthoodx countries and for many many centuries.

Some people wrote against it but the Church at large accepts it.

A seach of the forum using  Ancient of Days will turn up earlier threads on this.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #282 on: February 05, 2011, 09:14:58 AM »
Such depictions of God the Father have the approval of the holy Mother of God and that is good enough for me!

When Russia collapsed in 1917 the Mother of God gave to the Russian people an icon of  "The Reigning Mother of ofGod."  She wanted to comfort and strengthen believers in the ferocious persecution which was about to be launched against them, something she knew but they did not.

Please read the story of this miraculous icon and the way it appeared in Russia in 1917

  http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/03/enthroned-or-reigning-icon-of-mother-of.html

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #283 on: February 05, 2011, 09:41:17 AM »
Defended by Catholic laity:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33383.msg527435/#msg527435
The explanation I gave shows that it is not at all heretical. "Co-" in this case does not mean "equal to," it means "with" as in cooperated. That you want to consistently misrepresent Catholic teaching indicates that perhaps you are not that secure in your own faith.
::)
I know you think The Theotokos "co-operated" with Christ in your redemption. You now even depict her with a cross and wounds on her hands to show it. Its garbage and heresy. Christ alone redeemed both us and His Mother. The Theotokos is subject both to the conditions of the fall, and the redemption of Christ. She is not a "Co-redeemer". She has been redeemed. And all your squealing and ad hominems won't change that.
If you're living a happy life as a Christian, you're doing something wrong.

Offline Irish Hermit

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #284 on: February 05, 2011, 10:10:54 AM »
Defended by Catholic laity:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33383.msg527435/#msg527435
The explanation I gave shows that it is not at all heretical. "Co-" in this case does not mean "equal to," it means "with" as in cooperated. That you want to consistently misrepresent Catholic teaching indicates that perhaps you are not that secure in your own faith.
::)
I know you think The Theotokos "co-operated" with Christ in your redemption. You now even depict her with a cross and wounds on her hands to show it. Its garbage and heresy. Christ alone redeemed both us and His Mother. The Theotokos is subject both to the conditions of the fall, and the redemption of Christ. She is not a "Co-redeemer". She has been redeemed. And all your squealing and ad hominems won't change that.

/\ Absolutely what ozgeorge said, even down to the very queasy feeling about depicting her with the wounds of Christ.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #285 on: February 05, 2011, 10:38:55 AM »
This is what I asked about:

Quote
One of the things she said was that it was not just Christ who saved us, but the Mother of God who saved us as well.  She made it sound as if the Mother of God was as much our savior as Christ.

Among other things, she said that it was "Mary's blood" that saved us, because Christ got His blood from her.  She made it sound like it was actually St. Mary's blood that was in Christ veins, and that therefore it can be said that "Mary's blood" saved us.

She brought up the creation narrative in the Book of Genesis and said that when God created Adam, He used a plural pronoun for Adam.  She said the meaning behind this was that God was creating both men and women, and that therefore both a male and female saviour would be needed to save all of humanity.  In other words, one male saviour would not have been enough; we also needed a female saviour, who was the Virgin Mary.

She also brought up the Wedding of Cana, and used that to say that the Mother of God could change her Son's will.


It seems we've gotten sidetracked into other tangents, such as the sacred heart, or immaculate heart, as well as some rather shocking things I wish I never learned about Hindu deities, and other things.  It's all very interesting,  but like you said, it may not relate to what I asked about.  

Vassula and her followers are savvy enough to realize that most Orthodox and Catholics are ignorant of their own religious faith; There appear to be thousands of female Catholic Saints who were canonized due to believing in the Precious Blood of Christ and/or the Sacred/Immaculate Heart of Mary and/or Christ.

This is nonsense.  Complete nonsense.  Saints are recognized by the Church first and foremost by their exercise of heroic virtue.  If that is not there then it doesn't matter what else they said or did in life.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #286 on: February 05, 2011, 10:38:56 AM »
Defended by Catholic laity:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33383.msg527435/#msg527435
The explanation I gave shows that it is not at all heretical. "Co-" in this case does not mean "equal to," it means "with" as in cooperated. That you want to consistently misrepresent Catholic teaching indicates that perhaps you are not that secure in your own faith.
::)
I know you think The Theotokos "co-operated" with Christ in your redemption. You now even depict her with a cross and wounds on her hands to show it. Its garbage and heresy. Christ alone redeemed both us and His Mother. The Theotokos is subject both to the conditions of the fall, and the redemption of Christ. She is not a "Co-redeemer". She has been redeemed. And all your squealing and ad hominems won't change that.

There is nothing in the idea of the Virgin being co-redeemer that indicates that she was not redeemed.  In fact in the very course of her redemption, she, unlike the rest of us, brought forth the New Adam, Jesus, Redeemer, King.

It is in that way and ONLY that way, by her faith and her cooperation and her suffering, that she is said to be co-redeemer...and it is NO different from the Orthodox asking her to save them.

M.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #287 on: February 05, 2011, 10:52:59 AM »
It is in that way and ONLY that way, by her faith and her cooperation and her suffering, that she is said to be co-redeemer...
Her suffering did not redeem us...no matter how many times you say it.

and it is NO different from the Orthodox asking her to save them.
We don't believe the suffering of the Theotokos saved us. Christ's Incarnation Life and Death saved us and her. She saves us the same way all the Saints save us- by praying for us and guiding us to Christ. That is why the in the Hodegetria Icon she points to her Son. We even ask our Guardian Angel to save us every night at Compline ("take me by my wretched and outstretched hand and lead me in the way of Salvation"). THAT'S how the Theotokos saves us- not through her suffering as you heretically believe.

No one in Creation is more Holy than the Theotokos, yet when our Priests offer the Holy Gifts in the Liturgy, he prays:
"Again, we offer this spiritual worship for those who repose in the faith, forefathers, fathers, patriarchs, prophets, apostles, preachers, evangelists, martyrs, confessors, ascetics, and for every righteous spirit made perfect in faith, especially for our most holy, pure, blessed, and glorious Lady, the Theotokos and ever Virgin Mary."    You see? In Orthodoxy, even she who is "more honourable than the Cherubim and more glorious than the Seraphim", the most Holy Theotokos, must have the Sacrifice of the Eucharist offered for her. Even she must be washed in the Blood of Christ. It's therefore not only heretical, but a blasphemy both against her and her Son to say that her suffering redeemed us.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 11:24:06 AM by ozgeorge »
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Offline elijahmaria

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #288 on: February 05, 2011, 11:28:24 AM »
^ The stuff written in the above sites does sound an awful lot like what I heard. 

None of what you are looking at can be approved as Catholic UNLESS one understands that all that is said about the Mother of God points to Jesus, Lord, Redeemer, King.

Most of what you look at anywhere is the same thing you find in patristics with the New Adam and the New Eve.  That is the reference point through which all of this is understood.

If salvation comes into the world through the Mother of God, you don't say "Oh oh oh!! The Mother of God is our Redeemer!!"....You say "Yes!  The Son of God came into the world through the Virgin and took her flesh and is fully God and fully human!!"

The rest of what is being said here by the Orthodox detractors is crap....

M.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #289 on: February 05, 2011, 11:28:46 AM »
It is in that way and ONLY that way, by her faith and her cooperation and her suffering, that she is said to be co-redeemer...
Her suffering did not redeem us...no matter how many times you say it.

and it is NO different from the Orthodox asking her to save them.
We don't believe the suffering of the Theotokos saved us. Christ's Incarnation Life and Death saved us and her. She saves us the same way all the Saints save us- by praying for us and guiding us to Christ. That is why the in the Hodegetria Icon she points to her Son. We even ask our Guardian Angel to save us every night at Compline ("take me by my wretched and outstretched hand and lead me in the way of Salvation"). THAT'S how the Theotokos saves us- not through her suffering as you heretically believe.


Catholics do not believe that the suffering of the Mother of God saved us at all. 

We do believe that ALL of us, by our cooperation in the divine life...by theosis...participate in some way in the redeeming act of the Savior.  IN that way we are all co-redeemers, and the Mother of God is more so than any of the rest of us because her fiat was perfect and we are works in progress.

These things are not incompatible with Orthodoxy.  And this is ALL that is meant by the Church IF they ever truly speak of any of us cooperating in the redemptive acts of Christ.

You can crow all you like but it won't make your assessment truthful.  You are wrong and egregiously so.  God help you.

Offline ozgeorge

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #290 on: February 05, 2011, 11:34:35 AM »
Catholics do not believe that the suffering of the Mother of God saved us at all. 

It is in that way and ONLY that way, by her faith and her cooperation and her suffering, that she is said to be co-redeemer...

Make your mind up.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #291 on: February 05, 2011, 11:55:46 AM »
Defended by Catholic laity:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33383.msg527435/#msg527435
The explanation I gave shows that it is not at all heretical. "Co-" in this case does not mean "equal to," it means "with" as in cooperated. That you want to consistently misrepresent Catholic teaching indicates that perhaps you are not that secure in your own faith.
::)
I know you think The Theotokos "co-operated" with Christ in your redemption. You now even depict her with a cross and wounds on her hands to show it. Its garbage and heresy. Christ alone redeemed both us and His Mother. The Theotokos is subject both to the conditions of the fall, and the redemption of Christ. She is not a "Co-redeemer". She has been redeemed. And all your squealing and ad hominems won't change that.

There is nothing in the idea of the Virgin being co-redeemer that indicates that she was not redeemed.  In fact in the very course of her redemption, she, unlike the rest of us, brought forth the New Adam, Jesus, Redeemer, King.

It is in that way and ONLY that way, by her faith and her cooperation and her suffering, that she is said to be co-redeemer...and it is NO different from the Orthodox asking her to save them.
Bravo! In a few lines you manage to misrepresent both Orthodoxy and the Vatican.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #292 on: February 05, 2011, 12:00:41 PM »
Defended by Catholic laity:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33383.msg527435/#msg527435
The explanation I gave shows that it is not at all heretical. "Co-" in this case does not mean "equal to," it means "with" as in cooperated. That you want to consistently misrepresent Catholic teaching indicates that perhaps you are not that secure in your own faith.
::)
I know you think The Theotokos "co-operated" with Christ in your redemption. You now even depict her with a cross and wounds on her hands to show it. Its garbage and heresy. Christ alone redeemed both us and His Mother. The Theotokos is subject both to the conditions of the fall, and the redemption of Christ. She is not a "Co-redeemer". She has been redeemed. And all your squealing and ad hominems won't change that.

/\ Absolutely what ozgeorge said, even down to the very queasy feeling about depicting her with the wounds of Christ.
LOL.  For where there are two or three gathered together in My name, there am I in the midst of them.  And Father, OG and myself seem in complete agreement on this (which doesn't happen often enough  ;D)
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline ialmisry

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #293 on: February 05, 2011, 12:02:51 PM »
Defended by Catholic laity:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33383.msg527435/#msg527435
The explanation I gave shows that it is not at all heretical. "Co-" in this case does not mean "equal to," it means "with" as in cooperated. That you want to consistently misrepresent Catholic teaching indicates that perhaps you are not that secure in your own faith.
LOL. Rather your "explainers" want to deny in words what their actions say.

And btw, may I officially state that the Orthodox have never believed in the "Co-Redemptrix."  Just so when the Vatican makes it a dogma (and its coming, your defense of that shows it), there's a record to point to when it claims (like with the IC) that we believed it until the supreme pontiff proclaimed it.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 12:04:47 PM by ialmisry »
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline podkarpatska

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #294 on: February 05, 2011, 12:08:07 PM »
Defended by Catholic laity:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33383.msg527435/#msg527435
The explanation I gave shows that it is not at all heretical. "Co-" in this case does not mean "equal to," it means "with" as in cooperated. That you want to consistently misrepresent Catholic teaching indicates that perhaps you are not that secure in your own faith.
LOL. Rather your "explainers" want to deny in words what their actions say.

And btw, may I officially state that the Orthodox have never believed in the "Co-Redemptrix."  Just so when the Vatican makes it a dogma (and its coming, your defense of that shows it), there's a record to point to when it claims (like with the IC) that we believed it until the supreme pontiff proclaimed it.

The dogmatic proclamation may indeed come, but I still do not see Pope Benedict doing so.

Offline ialmisry

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #295 on: February 05, 2011, 12:08:37 PM »
You don't see the insults because you're one of those who has been flinging them.

I am so done with Orthodoxy now - this place has really poisoned it for me. :(  :(  :(
Behold...the fruits of the sin of schism running rampant in this forum and they are all too blind to even see it.

Yeah, that's not too disturbing. (De Vrouwe van alle Volkeren is "The Lady of All Nations").

"Her hands have radiant Wounds. Thereby Mary describes in an image the suffering of body and soul which she bore in union with her divine Son for the redemption of mankind."
Who can't see?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline minasoliman

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #296 on: February 05, 2011, 12:11:09 PM »
The Miracle-Working Icon of the Mother of God of Sitka has God the Father at the top:



I can't believe I missed this.  You should post this in the thread about God the Father icons.
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #297 on: February 05, 2011, 12:17:35 PM »
Such depictions of God the Father have the approval of the holy Mother of God and that is good enough for me!

When Russia collapsed in 1917 the Mother of God gave to the Russian people an icon of  "The Reigning Mother of ofGod."  She wanted to comfort and strengthen believers in the ferocious persecution which was about to be launched against them, something she knew but they did not.

Please read the story of this miraculous icon and the way it appeared in Russia in 1917

  http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/03/enthroned-or-reigning-icon-of-mother-of.html

Again, you should discuss this in the appropriate thread....and when I find it, I'll post the link here.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #298 on: February 05, 2011, 12:19:53 PM »
Defended by Catholic laity:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33383.msg527435/#msg527435
The explanation I gave shows that it is not at all heretical. "Co-" in this case does not mean "equal to," it means "with" as in cooperated. That you want to consistently misrepresent Catholic teaching indicates that perhaps you are not that secure in your own faith.
LOL. Rather your "explainers" want to deny in words what their actions say.

And btw, may I officially state that the Orthodox have never believed in the "Co-Redemptrix."  Just so when the Vatican makes it a dogma (and its coming, your defense of that shows it), there's a record to point to when it claims (like with the IC) that we believed it until the supreme pontiff proclaimed it.

They've never used the words but Orthodoxy has taught over time that we all share in the saving actions of Christ.  That our suffering is a part of the saving act.

It is in this sense that the Catholic Church also understands the teaching of co-redeemer.

All your assertions are wrong.  Simply and purposefully wrong.


Offline Wyatt

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #299 on: February 05, 2011, 12:19:53 PM »
Defended by Catholic laity:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33383.msg527435/#msg527435
The explanation I gave shows that it is not at all heretical. "Co-" in this case does not mean "equal to," it means "with" as in cooperated. That you want to consistently misrepresent Catholic teaching indicates that perhaps you are not that secure in your own faith.
::)
I know you think The Theotokos "co-operated" with Christ in your redemption. You now even depict her with a cross and wounds on her hands to show it. Its garbage and heresy. Christ alone redeemed both us and His Mother. The Theotokos is subject both to the conditions of the fall, and the redemption of Christ. She is not a "Co-redeemer". She has been redeemed. And all your squealing and ad hominems won't change that.
Do you even know what the word "cooperate" means. It does not mean she is on an equal footing with Christ. We all cooperate with God whenever we do his will. The new title for the Theotokos indicates that, as the Mother of God, she cooperated with God in a special way. So you can flail around and whine and take my words out of context and say that I am attacking people, but you are only giving a bad witness to "Orthodoxy" as well as proving everything I have ever said is wrong with this forum to be true.

As far as that image. Yeah, I agree that is going a bit far. However, A. It does not accurately represent the teaching of co-redemptrix, and B. I am not going to abandon my Catholic faith just because someone who claims to be Catholic makes an image that I do not like.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #300 on: February 05, 2011, 12:19:53 PM »
Catholics do not believe that the suffering of the Mother of God saved us at all. 

It is in that way and ONLY that way, by her faith and her cooperation and her suffering, that she is said to be co-redeemer...

Make your mind up.


They are not mutually exclusive.  The Church east and west has always indicated that by our fiat we cooperate in the redeeming acts of Christ.  It is in this way that the Mother of God is seen to be co-operating.

Offline Wyatt

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #301 on: February 05, 2011, 12:20:00 PM »
Defended by Catholic laity:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33383.msg527435/#msg527435
The explanation I gave shows that it is not at all heretical. "Co-" in this case does not mean "equal to," it means "with" as in cooperated. That you want to consistently misrepresent Catholic teaching indicates that perhaps you are not that secure in your own faith.
::)
I know you think The Theotokos "co-operated" with Christ in your redemption. You now even depict her with a cross and wounds on her hands to show it. Its garbage and heresy. Christ alone redeemed both us and His Mother. The Theotokos is subject both to the conditions of the fall, and the redemption of Christ. She is not a "Co-redeemer". She has been redeemed. And all your squealing and ad hominems won't change that.
But I don't believe Mary suffered and died on the cross. Now you are misrepresenting what I said. Also, when did I do an ad hominem?

Offline ialmisry

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #302 on: February 05, 2011, 12:22:11 PM »
You don't see the insults because you're one of those who has been flinging them.

Historical accounts are being cited; how are those an "insult?"

I am so done with Orthodoxy now - this place has really poisoned it for me. :(  :(  :(

I'm sorry you feel that way.   :(  I'm sorry that learning the truth about your own faith has been painful and that is your personal choice.  As I told elijahmaria, the gap between Orthodox and Catholics is very wide regardless of the statements generated at Orthodox-Catholic Consultations.  Any attempts at "unity" are really attempts by the Vatican to shove a millennium worth of Papal Bulls, Papal Encyclicals and other legalistic directives down the throats of the Orthodox....

There's far more truth about the Orthodox on display here than any kind of truth about the Catholic Church.
The Orthodox Truth of the Catholic Church just repelling the evil of the generation which seeks signs and visions.
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Offline ialmisry

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #303 on: February 05, 2011, 12:23:08 PM »
Defended by Catholic laity:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33383.msg527435/#msg527435
The explanation I gave shows that it is not at all heretical. "Co-" in this case does not mean "equal to," it means "with" as in cooperated. That you want to consistently misrepresent Catholic teaching indicates that perhaps you are not that secure in your own faith.
::)
I know you think The Theotokos "co-operated" with Christ in your redemption. You now even depict her with a cross and wounds on her hands to show it. Its garbage and heresy. Christ alone redeemed both us and His Mother. The Theotokos is subject both to the conditions of the fall, and the redemption of Christ. She is not a "Co-redeemer". She has been redeemed. And all your squealing and ad hominems won't change that.
Do you even know what the word "cooperate" means. It does not mean she is on an equal footing with Christ. We all cooperate with God whenever we do his will. The new title for the Theotokos indicates that, as the Mother of God, she cooperated with God in a special way. So you can flail around and whine and take my words out of context and say that I am attacking people, but you are only giving a bad witness to "Orthodoxy" as well as proving everything I have ever said is wrong with this forum to be true.

As far as that image. Yeah, I agree that is going a bit far. However, A. It does not accurately represent the teaching of co-redemptrix, and B. I am not going to abandon my Catholic faith just because someone who claims to be Catholic makes an image that I do not like.
What happens when the Vatican blesses it?
Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth

Offline minasoliman

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #305 on: February 05, 2011, 12:34:28 PM »
Just a note on the "suffering marks" of the Theotokos in Catholic depictions, we do understand there is a tradition of miracles people suffered through called the stigmata.  For the benefit of the doubt, perhaps this is a symbolic "stigmata" that many other faithful can experience.
Vain existence can never exist, for "unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain." (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #306 on: February 05, 2011, 12:44:36 PM »
You don't see the insults because you're one of those who has been flinging them.

Historical accounts are being cited; how are those an "insult?"

I am so done with Orthodoxy now - this place has really poisoned it for me. :(  :(  :(

I'm sorry you feel that way.   :(  I'm sorry that learning the truth about your own faith has been painful and that is your personal choice.  As I told elijahmaria, the gap between Orthodox and Catholics is very wide regardless of the statements generated at Orthodox-Catholic Consultations.  Any attempts at "unity" are really attempts by the Vatican to shove a millennium worth of Papal Bulls, Papal Encyclicals and other legalistic directives down the throats of the Orthodox....

There's far more truth about the Orthodox on display here than any kind of truth about the Catholic Church.
The Orthodox Truth of the Catholic Church just repelling the evil of the generation which seeks signs and visions.

Here chick chick chick!!

Offline Wyatt

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #307 on: February 05, 2011, 12:44:37 PM »
Defended by Catholic laity:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33383.msg527435/#msg527435
The explanation I gave shows that it is not at all heretical. "Co-" in this case does not mean "equal to," it means "with" as in cooperated. That you want to consistently misrepresent Catholic teaching indicates that perhaps you are not that secure in your own faith.
::)
I know you think The Theotokos "co-operated" with Christ in your redemption. You now even depict her with a cross and wounds on her hands to show it. Its garbage and heresy. Christ alone redeemed both us and His Mother. The Theotokos is subject both to the conditions of the fall, and the redemption of Christ. She is not a "Co-redeemer". She has been redeemed. And all your squealing and ad hominems won't change that.
Do you even know what the word "cooperate" means. It does not mean she is on an equal footing with Christ. We all cooperate with God whenever we do his will. The new title for the Theotokos indicates that, as the Mother of God, she cooperated with God in a special way. So you can flail around and whine and take my words out of context and say that I am attacking people, but you are only giving a bad witness to "Orthodoxy" as well as proving everything I have ever said is wrong with this forum to be true.

As far as that image. Yeah, I agree that is going a bit far. However, A. It does not accurately represent the teaching of co-redemptrix, and B. I am not going to abandon my Catholic faith just because someone who claims to be Catholic makes an image that I do not like.
What happens when the Vatican blesses it?
I don't think it will, but if it does it is important to note that A. it does not depict Mary hanging on the cross; B. those indentations in her hands indicate she was wounded too by experiencing the pain of seeing her Son crucified; C. if it is approved, it would simply mean it is approved as a private devotion and, thus, I have no obligation as a Catholic to participate in it since it is simply another devotion which we may utilize; and D. it is a metaphor. It does not literally mean Mary was crucified for our salvation (see B).

Offline Wyatt

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #308 on: February 05, 2011, 12:44:37 PM »
Just a note on the "suffering marks" of the Theotokos in Catholic depictions, we do understand there is a tradition of miracles people suffered through called the stigmata.  For the benefit of the doubt, perhaps this is a symbolic "stigmata" that many other faithful can experience.
Wow...someone actually using some logic. Thank you.

Offline elijahmaria

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #309 on: February 05, 2011, 12:45:10 PM »
Just a note on the "suffering marks" of the Theotokos in Catholic depictions, we do understand there is a tradition of miracles people suffered through called the stigmata.  For the benefit of the doubt, perhaps this is a symbolic "stigmata" that many other faithful can experience.

That holy card or whatever it is that is being displayed here is unusual. 

The only other kind of image that shows wounds on the body of the Mother of God is the one that displays the swords in her chest.

I think you may have the same image.

Personally I dislike that one and am not moved by it in any form, east or west.

But the card that the Professor displays here is not a usual or frequently found image.  I have never seen anything like it before.

Offline Rafa999

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #310 on: February 05, 2011, 01:10:46 PM »
Such depictions of God the Father have the approval of the holy Mother of God and that is good enough for me!

When Russia collapsed in 1917 the Mother of God gave to the Russian people an icon of  "The Reigning Mother of ofGod."  She wanted to comfort and strengthen believers in the ferocious persecution which was about to be launched against them, something she knew but they did not.

Please read the story of this miraculous icon and the way it appeared in Russia in 1917

  http://www.johnsanidopoulos.com/2010/03/enthroned-or-reigning-icon-of-mother-of.html

No offense but why is the Virgin Mary "entrhoned" instead of her Son ? Why does she occupy most of the icon and why is she not point towards her son? Why does she hold a scepter when that is her son's property? You also know that in the Assyrian Church which had three of her relatives serving as Patriarchs there is no belief in an "ascension" (before or after death) and this icon aparently came from an ascension monastery before being found. Besides the obvious point of depicting the Father which is prohibited by the nomocanons if I am correct...
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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #311 on: February 05, 2011, 01:14:27 PM »
The dogmatic proclamation may indeed come, but I still do not see Pope Benedict doing so.
Well, there's a curious fact concerning that. The original "apparitions" of the "Lady of All Nations" who "asked" for the dogma to be promulgated "revealed" the following prayer and asked that it be said by all people:
"Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Father,
send now Your Spirit over the earth.
Let the Holy Spirit live in the hearts of all nations
that they may be preserved from degeneration, disaster and war.
May The Lady of All Nations, who once was Mary, be our advocate. Amen."
Source: http://www.ladyofallnations.org/p-p.htm
Note the bolded words.

In 2002, the local Bishop of Haalem Josef Mariana Punt, after consultation with the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith (whose Prefect at the time was one Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger) issued a statement regarding the apparitions saying:
"no theological or psychological impediments for a declaration of supernatural authenticity can be found therein."
Source: http://www.ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/PUNTOLAN.HTM

In 2005 however, on May 20th, less than 2 weeks after Cardinal Ratzinger, was elected Pope, the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith issued a statement banning the words "who once was Mary" from the prayer.
Source: http://www.catholic.org/featured/headline.php?ID=2446

As a result, the words of the prayer were changed on the official website of the apparitions to say:
"......MAY THE LADY OF ALL NATIONS, THE BLESSED VIRGIN MARY, BE OUR ADVOCATE. AMEN."
Source: http://www.de-vrouwe.info/en/

So, apparently, a "private revelation" approved after consultation with the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith was later "amended" by the same CDF to meet its requirements a fortnight after the Prefect of the CDF was elected Pope. Strange that rather than condemning the "apparitions" as containing erroneous "revelations", the CDF was satisfied with merely changing the content of the revelations.



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Offline ozgeorge

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #312 on: February 05, 2011, 01:17:46 PM »
But the card that the Professor displays here is not a usual or frequently found image.  I have never seen anything like it before.
Oh you'll be seeing more of them. Your Church has started placing parishes under the patronage of the "Lady of All Nations":
http://www.camborne-redruth-parish.org/Our_Parish_Patron.html
http://www.ladyofallnations-bali.com/en.default.asp
And your clergy are venerating it:
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 01:36:30 PM by ozgeorge »
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Offline minasoliman

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #313 on: February 05, 2011, 01:45:55 PM »
I just want to add that I personally don't find the "Co-Redeemer" beliefs an issue at all as long as it is "properly" interpreted.  I did before mention elsewhere the prefix "Co" is a problem to many here, as if it's an equal.  We do say the Son is "co-essential" with the Father for instance.

Nevertheless, I'm not one who argues with semantics, but at least one should probably ask the Pope of Rome for his next major sermon or writing to clarify what the Theotokos is not rather than what she is to destroy or quell any uncertainties in debates like this.

And to put things in perspective, we have a very popular hymn, chanted in our Midnight praises.  It's the 8th Theotokia in our liturgical writings, and some of the phrases and titles given to the Theotokos, if not properly understood, can be quite scandalous to some:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBfuD-keEvc
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Offline Rafa999

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Re: bizarre teachings about the Mother of God
« Reply #314 on: February 05, 2011, 02:01:51 PM »
Defended by Catholic laity:
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,33383.msg527435/#msg527435
The explanation I gave shows that it is not at all heretical. "Co-" in this case does not mean "equal to," it means "with" as in cooperated. That you want to consistently misrepresent Catholic teaching indicates that perhaps you are not that secure in your own faith.
::)
I know you think The Theotokos "co-operated" with Christ in your redemption. You now even depict her with a cross and wounds on her hands to show it. Its garbage and heresy. Christ alone redeemed both us and His Mother. The Theotokos is subject both to the conditions of the fall, and the redemption of Christ. She is not a "Co-redeemer". She has been redeemed. And all your squealing and ad hominems won't change that.

Amen. What a blasphemy which compromises the souls of people to say that the Virgin cooperated with salvation. Almost as bad as saying the Church was built on Peter instead of Christ and that there is a so called vicar of Christ on earth.
I am NOT a representative of the ACOE. Ignore my posts