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Author Topic: starting to miss my old Church...what to do?  (Read 4132 times) Average Rating: 0
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Tikhon.of.Colorado
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« on: January 31, 2011, 09:57:11 AM »

my father wasn't able to drive me to vespers last Sat., so I walked to my old Church for mass.  I must say, I have really been missing it.  I would never leave Holy Orthodoxy, mind you!  I spoke to the priest of the parish (he pulled me aside at the end) and he said he would pray for me, and to ask the Blessed Mother for guidance. 

what is the best thing to do when you miss your old Church?
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« Reply #1 on: January 31, 2011, 10:11:58 AM »


Get more involved in your new one Orthodox one!
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« Reply #2 on: January 31, 2011, 10:17:02 AM »

Since you state that you don't want to leave Orthodoxy I fail to spot what's so wrong with these occasional nostalgic feelings. Why it would be wrong? Catholic mass is a beautiful thing and I think that if I had grown with it I would miss it dearly. And there's nothing wrong with it. I miss occasionally some aspects of Lutheranism and Pentecostalism I used to be part of and I can't see anything wrong in it either. We all have our past.
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« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2011, 10:35:36 AM »

my father wasn't able to drive me to vespers last Sat., so I walked to my old Church for mass.  I must say, I have really been missing it.  I would never leave Holy Orthodoxy, mind you!  I spoke to the priest of the parish (he pulled me aside at the end) and he said he would pray for me, and to ask the Blessed Mother for guidance. 

what is the best thing to do when you miss your old Church?

The grass is always greener on the other side, my friend Wink

What do you miss specifically, might I ask, other than the familiarity of it?
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« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2011, 12:02:09 PM »

my father wasn't able to drive me to vespers last Sat., so I walked to my old Church for mass.  I must say, I have really been missing it.  I would never leave Holy Orthodoxy, mind you!  I spoke to the priest of the parish (he pulled me aside at the end) and he said he would pray for me, and to ask the Blessed Mother for guidance. 

what is the best thing to do when you miss your old Church?

The grass is always greener on the other side, my friend Wink

What do you miss specifically, might I ask, other than the familiarity of it?
specifically, there were several beautiful Latin hymns they sung before communion, and I loved those.  ("Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus", etc.).  I also really liked the architecture of the Church.  lastly, I miss praying the rosery.  I know that the prayer rope is the rosery for us Orthodox, but it's not really the same. 
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« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2011, 12:06:23 PM »

^Isn't there an Eastern Orthodox version of the actual Rosary?
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« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2011, 12:23:21 PM »

^Isn't there an Eastern Orthodox version of the actual Rosary?

Yup. 150 "Rejoice, O Virgins" with stuff in between each decade, depending on whose rule it is. No imaginings/meditations/mysteries, although some rules attach to each decade a feast of the Theotokos with a troparion and a prayer.
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« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2011, 01:04:48 PM »



Here is an Eastern Catholic web site with a version using prayers familiar to the eastern tradition of praying.

This web site gives verses to say before each Hail Mary to allow you to meditate on the mysteries while keeping your focus on the words you are praying.
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« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2011, 01:44:01 PM »

^Isn't there an Eastern Orthodox version of the actual Rosary?

No.

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« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2011, 01:53:30 PM »

^Isn't there an Eastern Orthodox version of the actual Rosary?

No.



I don't know if there is a distinct "Eastern Orthodox" version, but we do have saints that did pray the rosary, including St Seraphim of Sarov, so it's not entirely foreign or offensive to the Orthodox faith as a whole.
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« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2011, 01:57:52 PM »

^Isn't there an Eastern Orthodox version of the actual Rosary?

No.


So Shanghaiski is incorrect?
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« Reply #11 on: January 31, 2011, 02:18:19 PM »

^Isn't there an Eastern Orthodox version of the actual Rosary?

No.



I don't know if there is a distinct "Eastern Orthodox" version, but we do have saints that did pray the rosary, including St Seraphim of Sarov, so it's not entirely foreign or offensive to the Orthodox faith as a whole.

I dont see any reason why you cant continue to say the Rosary as an Orthodox Catholic.  Prayers are prayers.  I know of more than one former RC convert in my parish who still say the rosary and no one is offended including our priest.

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« Reply #12 on: January 31, 2011, 02:26:07 PM »

^Isn't there an Eastern Orthodox version of the actual Rosary?

No.



I don't know if there is a distinct "Eastern Orthodox" version, but we do have saints that did pray the rosary, including St Seraphim of Sarov, so it's not entirely foreign or offensive to the Orthodox faith as a whole.

I dont see any reason why you cant continue to say the Rosary as an Orthodox Catholic.  Prayers are prayers.  I know of more than one former RC convert in my parish who still say the rosary and no one is offended including our priest.

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In the early years of the return of former Greek Catholics to Orthodoxy in America it was common in many parishes for the older women, the babas, to pray the Rosary as they learned as children and many of them were sent to their final resting place with Rosary firmly in hand.
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« Reply #13 on: January 31, 2011, 03:33:05 PM »

Depends on who you are using for a source.  From what I gather, the current form of Rosary is a rather late Latin innovation.  The use of beads to count prayers, and prayers to the Theotokos, on the other hand, are rather ancient.  I have seen sources in writing that support both LizaSymonenko's view and Shanghaiski's view.


^Isn't there an Eastern Orthodox version of the actual Rosary?

No.


So Shanghaiski is incorrect?
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« Reply #14 on: January 31, 2011, 05:31:59 PM »

Orthodox rosary:

http://www.westernorthodox.com/rosary.html

Why not get a c.d. of your favorite latin hymns and play them in your car?
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« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2011, 10:09:09 PM »

My parish prays this Rosary (http://www.andrewespress.com/rosary.html) every Sunday before Mass and it's just a beautiful devotion. It's called A Scriptural Rosary because the mysteries are verses from Scripture, as opposed to flowery, sappy poems that you sometimes find with other Rosaries. It's actually quite similar to the one prayed by St. Seraphim of Sarov. You can download it on Lulu for $5!
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« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2011, 11:27:59 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!
^Isn't there an Eastern Orthodox version of the actual Rosary?

Quote
The Beads
Beads are devices for counting prayers. Prayers which are known are said repeatedly on beads, especially 'kyrie elison,' and an account is kept by strings of beads. The believer may be required to recite 50 to 150 Kyries, and then some counting device must be used.

The beads are not arranged in-groups of ten small beads as in the Rosary of the Roman Catholic Church. They may be of any suitable substance not, easily broken. Glass beads are allowed if they are solid.

The beads of the priests and of those who specially pray may be of red glass or dark wood or of white wood. "A man pulls forth his string of beads and recites his prayers at the due time. The prayer of the salutation of the Archangel Gabriel to the Blessed Virgin Mary is said. During the Mass, shortly before the LECTIONS, the priest and people say this prayer is as follows:
Priest: The angel went in unto her and stood in front of her and said to her: Rejoice, rejoice,
thou art full of grace.
People: The Lord is with thee.
Priest: Blessed art thou among women.
People: And blessed is the fruit of thy womb.
Priest: Pray for us to Christ thy son,
People: to forgive us our sin.


Edited by Aymero W and Joachim M., The Ethiopian Orthodox Church, published by the Ethiopian Orthodox mission, Addis Ababa 1970.

 
Aside from the Tewahedo Hail Mary prayers and the Kyrie Eleison/Igzee'o Tesahalene (Lord Have Mercies) there are also the Tewahedo Jesus prayers on the beads, "Igzee'o Mehadine Kiristos" (Lord Christ Have Mercy on Us) and also the Marian "Be'ente Mariam Mehadine Kiristos" (For the Sake of Mary, Christ Have Mercy on Us")  While the Tewahedo has its own distinctive prayer beads, many Ethiopians (myself included) also use Catholic rosaries because the beads are the same in number, just not divided, though to be sure most people use these in private worship. Generally, it is older ladies who devoutly use the beads during the Kidase/Liturgy service, and part of that ritual is not just to count the beads, but to swing and clack them rhythmically to the tempo of the Liturgy chant, it is quite mystical.  Do any other Orthodox traditions do this rhythmic shaking of the beads also, I am curious?

In regards to the OP, I say if you feel comfortable worshiping at your old Church, visit it from time to time for a Mass.  If there is a conflict of schedule, attend weekday or holy day Masses that do not necessarily conflict.  Above all, go with the Spirit and where it takes you to worship our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.  Further, if God brings you to attend both liturgy services, perhaps in His Grace He will use you to help bridge the gaps and open communication and fellowship, just as He has between the Rastafari community and the EOTC through fellowship and hospitality.  Go with God in all things.
 
stay blessed,
habte selassie
 

 
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« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2011, 11:42:09 PM »

^  Yes, go where God leads you.

However, be sure it's God who is leading you.

With all due respect to our Catholic forum members, I truly believe that the Orthodox Church is the One True Church.

Therefore, advising someone to skip around from Orthodox to Catholic from week to week....cannot possibly be good.

Trevor is still very young (teenager).  Teenagers are quite impressionable as it is.  I don't think it's a good idea to attend RC Mass one Sunday, and Divine Liturgy the next.   I can't see Christ encouraging Trevor to leave His Church and go elsewhere to seek Him.

When you have it all, why would you look elsewhere?

If it's the "music"  you miss, fine, get a CD and listen to it...but, do NOT return to a regular schedule of attending RC Mass. 

Sorry...I care for Trevor and do not want to see this young lamb falter and get separated from the flock.


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« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2011, 11:51:39 PM »

^  Yes, go where God leads you.

However, be sure it's God who is leading you.

With all due respect to our Catholic forum members, I truly believe that the Orthodox Church is the One True Church.

Therefore, advising someone to skip around from Orthodox to Catholic from week to week....cannot possibly be good.

Trevor is still very young (teenager).  Teenagers are quite impressionable as it is.  I don't think it's a good idea to attend RC Mass one Sunday, and Divine Liturgy the next.   I can't see Christ encouraging Trevor to leave His Church and go elsewhere to seek Him.

When you have it all, why would you look elsewhere?

If it's the "music"  you miss, fine, get a CD and listen to it...but, do NOT return to a regular schedule of attending RC Mass. 

Sorry...I care for Trevor and do not want to see this young lamb falter and get separated from the flock.



thanks, Liza.   Wink
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« Reply #19 on: February 01, 2011, 12:07:22 AM »


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« Reply #20 on: February 01, 2011, 12:08:31 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Therefore, advising someone to skip around from Orthodox to Catholic from week to week....cannot possibly be good.

Trevor is still very young (teenager).  Teenagers are quite impressionable as it is.  I don't think it's a good idea to attend RC Mass one Sunday, and Divine Liturgy the next.   I can't see Christ encouraging Trevor to leave His Church and go elsewhere to seek Him.

When you have it all, why would you look elsewhere?


It is also "cannot possibly be good" to be overly divisive in regards to fellowship and worship with family.  I don't know who you were referring to, because no one above in any responses suggests Trevor start church hopping, but this is is family parish where he grew up, there is no reason why he should completely abandon it.  God is stronger than any doctrine or schism, and I am confident from the person Trevor is that God is at the helm, and the young man is not so gullible.  It can be just as damaging at the crucially young and formative age for our young friend to venture out entirely on his own and leave his family and life-long social support network in the cold, because it takes time to develop the kinds of social skills and experience to have a strong relationship in a Church community.  Just because Orthodox is the True Faith, does not mean that it will automatically take care of Trevor's socio-familial needs, and by the way, as an Orthodox Youth Minister, I deal precisely with this problem with young men and women his age.  They need the social and familial support MOST OF ALL to stay involved in the Church, and honestly, I would be more anxious about sending Trevor off to fend for himself in the social chaos that can be many Orthodox parishes and completely neglect his family and social-support network from his parish family.  So that being said, I'd say that there is no conflict or danger in him developing his orthodox life, yet to remain grounded in the Christian community and family he has always known as he steps into the formative early adult years that are so crucial.  Orthodox is strong enough mystically to counter Roman fallacies, I don't think that Trevor will become a hardcore Papist just because he attends a few Roman Masses with is family out of respect, fellowship and love.  

All the commandments are summed up in this, that you love one another.. and this is worth more than all the sacrifices and ascent offerings (ie, liturgies and prayer services)

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #21 on: February 01, 2011, 12:39:41 AM »


I might be mistaken, but, I believe I read that Trevor mentioned his dad was just about to become a catechumen in the Orthodox Church.  That being said, I cannot see Trevor returning to his previous RC parish as forging strong familial relations.

I, too, work with the youth, and realize how hard it is for them.

Therefore, at least the adults in their lives should hold strong to their faith and not encourage them to go "elsewhere".  In my book, it's "not" okay to go to both churches.  Pick one, and stick with it.

I have kids who do jump around, because their parents are of the opinion "God is one"...and it doesn't matter if they go to the RC's or Orthodox, it's all the same.  I cringe when I hear that one of my Orthodox baptized students went up to Communion in an RC church.  Yes, they come from mixed marriages, and dad goes there and mom don't care.  So, what's the kid going to learn growing up?  It's all the same.

...and in the end, they go neither here, nor there.

HabteSelassie, I completely understand your point of view, and have always respected your opinions and knowledge when it comes to Orthodoxy.

However, I personally, would never encourage one of my young students to go to an RC church.  If anything, I would step up and be that Orthodox connection they need, but, I could never send them someplace outside of Orthodoxy.

I know each situation is different....and I am sure you hold your opinion due to the experience you have.  However, my mouth would never be able to utter the words to send a kid any place other than an Orthodox church.

Sorry.

I completely understand the opportunity to forge bonds between RC and Orthodox....sure....but, that's for adults to do, not teenagers who are still finding their footing.

Trevor, stick with Orthodoxy!  You won't be sorry.

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« Reply #22 on: February 01, 2011, 12:55:38 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Therefore, advising someone to skip around from Orthodox to Catholic from week to week....cannot possibly be good.

Trevor is still very young (teenager).  Teenagers are quite impressionable as it is.  I don't think it's a good idea to attend RC Mass one Sunday, and Divine Liturgy the next.   I can't see Christ encouraging Trevor to leave His Church and go elsewhere to seek Him.

When you have it all, why would you look elsewhere?


It is also "cannot possibly be good" to be overly divisive in regards to fellowship and worship with family.  I don't know who you were referring to, because no one above in any responses suggests Trevor start church hopping, but this is is family parish where he grew up, there is no reason why he should completely abandon it.  God is stronger than any doctrine or schism, and I am confident from the person Trevor is that God is at the helm, and the young man is not so gullible.  It can be just as damaging at the crucially young and formative age for our young friend to venture out entirely on his own and leave his family and life-long social support network in the cold, because it takes time to develop the kinds of social skills and experience to have a strong relationship in a Church community.  Just because Orthodox is the True Faith, does not mean that it will automatically take care of Trevor's socio-familial needs, and by the way, as an Orthodox Youth Minister, I deal precisely with this problem with young men and women his age.  They need the social and familial support MOST OF ALL to stay involved in the Church, and honestly, I would be more anxious about sending Trevor off to fend for himself in the social chaos that can be many Orthodox parishes and completely neglect his family and social-support network from his parish family.  So that being said, I'd say that there is no conflict or danger in him developing his orthodox life, yet to remain grounded in the Christian community and family he has always known as he steps into the formative early adult years that are so crucial.  Orthodox is strong enough mystically to counter Roman fallacies, I don't think that Trevor will become a hardcore Papist just because he attends a few Roman Masses with is family out of respect, fellowship and love.  

All the commandments are summed up in this, that you love one another.. and this is worth more than all the sacrifices and ascent offerings (ie, liturgies and prayer services)

stay blessed,
habte selassie

Again high quality posts to posts ratio.

I am going to make it a point to read all them and determine the relation.
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« Reply #23 on: February 01, 2011, 09:44:43 AM »

^Isn't there an Eastern Orthodox version of the actual Rosary?

No.



No.
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« Reply #24 on: February 01, 2011, 10:10:07 AM »


 Huh
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« Reply #25 on: February 01, 2011, 10:12:36 AM »


-1*-1=1
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« Reply #26 on: February 01, 2011, 10:15:23 AM »


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« Reply #27 on: February 01, 2011, 10:50:08 AM »

I'd just like to add that this particular Catholic Church is where all of the immigrate Poles would go (we got many eastern european immegrants, as we have a large steel mill.)  there was a time when they would say mass in Polish for people like my grandparents.  I still have fond memories of sitting down with my grandmother and her golden rosery (which she left me in her will, btw) and her teaching me the prayers in Polish.  (she also taught me the "Our Father" in Ukrainian, because her great grandfather was Ukrainian, and taught it to her when she was a little girl).  I don't know...I guess I just feel a cultural connection to this Church.  all of my grandparents (except my Protestand German grandmother) were Catholic.  most people talk about how their culturally Orthodox. when I think about it, my culture is Roman Catholic (ok, a bit Lutheran, too.)

also, I keep getting in little fights with my dad.  he is almost a catechumen.  last time, I didn't go to liturgy because he'd just yell at me at coffee hour.  we clearly have some issues we need to work out.  and, I know it's terrible (but, hey, I'm a teenager) but I sortof feel like he's stepping in on my territory.  it's fine that he wants to be Orthodox.  now he wants to serve in the altar.  I don't know.....I'm having a hard time expressing Christian love toward him, right now. 


please, forgive the rant!  I just figured I would get this out there for commentary.   Wink
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« Reply #28 on: February 01, 2011, 11:40:28 AM »

I don't want to come out as harsh or whatever but. BUT. I couldn't agree more with LizaSymonenko. It may be that the Christian people who drew me back in Church were like that, but still I believe it's the right way to look at Christ's Church.

Church, not Churches. The Body of Christ is one and cannot be divided, God forbid! That means that there is only One Church of Christ. From an opposite stand-view, if one Church is the Church of Christ, then all the others are the Churches of the Satan. (All the gods of the pagans are demons, Scripture says.) So, if you consider the EO Church the right one, then the Catholic one is the work of Satan and vice versa. You just have to choose. One cannot serve two masters.

Have we also forgotten the Canons of the Holy Apostles?
Quote
Canon XLV.
Let a bishop, presbyter, or deacon, who has only prayed with heretics, be excommunicated: but if he has permitted them to perform any clerical office, let him be deposed.

Canon XLVI.
We ordain that a bishop, or presbyter, who has admitted the baptism or sacrifice of heretics, be deposed. For what concord hath Christ with Belial, or what part hath a believer with an infidel?

Canon LXIV.
If any clergyman or layman shall enter into a synagogue of Jews or heretics to pray, let the former be deposed and let the latter be excommunicated.

Pray to the Lord and His All-Holy Mother to guide you. I'll be praying for you.
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« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2011, 01:02:41 PM »

Since you state that you don't want to leave Orthodoxy I fail to spot what's so wrong with these occasional nostalgic feelings. Why it would be wrong? Catholic mass is a beautiful thing and I think that if I had grown with it I would miss it dearly. And there's nothing wrong with it. I miss occasionally some aspects of Lutheranism and Pentecostalism I used to be part of and I can't see anything wrong in it either. We all have our past.

So true...Sometimes I miss my single days...that doesn't mean I'm tempted to go back to them.
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« Reply #30 on: February 01, 2011, 01:09:35 PM »

Church, not Churches. The Body of Christ is one and cannot be divided, God forbid! That means that there is only One Church of Christ. From an opposite stand-view, if one Church is the Church of Christ, then all the others are the Churches of the Satan. (All the gods of the pagans are demons, Scripture says.) So, if you consider the EO Church the right one, then the Catholic one is the work of Satan and vice versa. You just have to choose. One cannot serve two masters.

Have we also forgotten the Canons of the Holy Apostles?
Quote
Canon XLV.
Let a bishop, presbyter, or deacon, who has only prayed with heretics, be excommunicated: but if he has permitted them to perform any clerical office, let him be deposed.

Canon XLVI.
We ordain that a bishop, or presbyter, who has admitted the baptism or sacrifice of heretics, be deposed. For what concord hath Christ with Belial, or what part hath a believer with an infidel?

Canon LXIV.
If any clergyman or layman shall enter into a synagogue of Jews or heretics to pray, let the former be deposed and let the latter be excommunicated.

Pray to the Lord and His All-Holy Mother to guide you. I'll be praying for you.

I guess there is no hope for people like me then, because I am convinced that both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are of one Apostolic Tradition but sadly just separated.  I pray for reconciliation!
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« Reply #31 on: February 01, 2011, 01:10:57 PM »

Church, not Churches. The Body of Christ is one and cannot be divided, God forbid! That means that there is only One Church of Christ. From an opposite stand-view, if one Church is the Church of Christ, then all the others are the Churches of the Satan. (All the gods of the pagans are demons, Scripture says.) So, if you consider the EO Church the right one, then the Catholic one is the work of Satan and vice versa. You just have to choose. One cannot serve two masters.

Have we also forgotten the Canons of the Holy Apostles?
Quote
Canon XLV.
Let a bishop, presbyter, or deacon, who has only prayed with heretics, be excommunicated: but if he has permitted them to perform any clerical office, let him be deposed.

Canon XLVI.
We ordain that a bishop, or presbyter, who has admitted the baptism or sacrifice of heretics, be deposed. For what concord hath Christ with Belial, or what part hath a believer with an infidel?

Canon LXIV.
If any clergyman or layman shall enter into a synagogue of Jews or heretics to pray, let the former be deposed and let the latter be excommunicated.

Pray to the Lord and His All-Holy Mother to guide you. I'll be praying for you.

I guess there is no hope for people like me then, because I am convinced that both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are of one Apostolic Tradition but sadly just separated.  I pray for reconciliation!
There are many Eastern Catholics who believe as you do.
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« Reply #32 on: February 01, 2011, 01:11:36 PM »

Here is an Eastern Catholic web site with a version using prayers familiar to the eastern tradition of praying.

What a great alternative!
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« Reply #33 on: February 01, 2011, 01:20:56 PM »

I guess there is no hope for people like me then, because I am convinced that both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are of one Apostolic Tradition but sadly just separated.  I pray for reconciliation!
Everyone prays for reconciliation, but at the right time, with the right way. Reconciliation is not, in my book at least, to do whatever it takes to be together, even to dismiss the teachings of saints like Saint Gregory Palamas, Saint Nectarios of Aegina or elders like Elder Paisios and Elder Porfyrios of Mount Athos. The history of the Church includes Saints who were sentenced to isolation and many times death for not accepting the Pope of Rome as a Bishop of Christ. You can't go into full reconciliation, dropping half or more of your history, if you still believe that you have the full truth in you and nothing but the truth.
« Last Edit: February 01, 2011, 01:22:21 PM by Dimitrios-Georgios » Logged
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« Reply #34 on: February 01, 2011, 01:39:23 PM »

Church, not Churches. The Body of Christ is one and cannot be divided, God forbid! That means that there is only One Church of Christ. From an opposite stand-view, if one Church is the Church of Christ, then all the others are the Churches of the Satan. (All the gods of the pagans are demons, Scripture says.) So, if you consider the EO Church the right one, then the Catholic one is the work of Satan and vice versa. You just have to choose. One cannot serve two masters.

Have we also forgotten the Canons of the Holy Apostles?
Quote
Canon XLV.
Let a bishop, presbyter, or deacon, who has only prayed with heretics, be excommunicated: but if he has permitted them to perform any clerical office, let him be deposed.

Canon XLVI.
We ordain that a bishop, or presbyter, who has admitted the baptism or sacrifice of heretics, be deposed. For what concord hath Christ with Belial, or what part hath a believer with an infidel?

Canon LXIV.
If any clergyman or layman shall enter into a synagogue of Jews or heretics to pray, let the former be deposed and let the latter be excommunicated.

Pray to the Lord and His All-Holy Mother to guide you. I'll be praying for you.

I guess there is no hope for people like me then, because I am convinced that both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are of one Apostolic Tradition but sadly just separated.  I pray for reconciliation!

I don't wish to endorse the whole "you pray to demons" thing quoted above, but still I cannot see how you cannot see that the RCs and the Eastern Orthodox Church teach different doctrines.
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« Reply #35 on: February 01, 2011, 01:53:11 PM »

I guess there is no hope for people like me then, because I am convinced that both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are of one Apostolic Tradition but sadly just separated.  I pray for reconciliation!
Everyone prays for reconciliation, but at the right time, with the right way. Reconciliation is not, in my book at least, to do whatever it takes to be together, even to dismiss the teachings of saints like Saint Gregory Palamas, Saint Nectarios of Aegina or elders like Elder Paisios and Elder Porfyrios of Mount Athos. The history of the Church includes Saints who were sentenced to isolation and many times death for not accepting the Pope of Rome as a Bishop of Christ. You can't go into full reconciliation, dropping half or more of your history, if you still believe that you have the full truth in you and nothing but the truth.

That is an awful lot to ask!  I pray that our shepherds are wise.

M.
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« Reply #36 on: February 01, 2011, 02:43:54 PM »

Church, not Churches. The Body of Christ is one and cannot be divided, God forbid! That means that there is only One Church of Christ. From an opposite stand-view, if one Church is the Church of Christ, then all the others are the Churches of the Satan. (All the gods of the pagans are demons, Scripture says.) So, if you consider the EO Church the right one, then the Catholic one is the work of Satan and vice versa. You just have to choose. One cannot serve two masters.

Have we also forgotten the Canons of the Holy Apostles?
Quote
Canon XLV.
Let a bishop, presbyter, or deacon, who has only prayed with heretics, be excommunicated: but if he has permitted them to perform any clerical office, let him be deposed.

Canon XLVI.
We ordain that a bishop, or presbyter, who has admitted the baptism or sacrifice of heretics, be deposed. For what concord hath Christ with Belial, or what part hath a believer with an infidel?

Canon LXIV.
If any clergyman or layman shall enter into a synagogue of Jews or heretics to pray, let the former be deposed and let the latter be excommunicated.

Pray to the Lord and His All-Holy Mother to guide you. I'll be praying for you.

I guess there is no hope for people like me then, because I am convinced that both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are of one Apostolic Tradition but sadly just separated.  I pray for reconciliation!

I don't wish to endorse the whole "you pray to demons" thing quoted above, but still I cannot see how you cannot see that the RCs and the Eastern Orthodox Church teach different doctrines.

Different, yes...but I believe the doctrines of the Orthodox and Catholics chruches are directly descendent derivatives of the Apostolic Tradition and (only) therefore reconcilable.
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« Reply #37 on: February 01, 2011, 02:52:05 PM »

Church, not Churches. The Body of Christ is one and cannot be divided, God forbid! That means that there is only One Church of Christ. From an opposite stand-view, if one Church is the Church of Christ, then all the others are the Churches of the Satan. (All the gods of the pagans are demons, Scripture says.) So, if you consider the EO Church the right one, then the Catholic one is the work of Satan and vice versa. You just have to choose. One cannot serve two masters.

Have we also forgotten the Canons of the Holy Apostles?
Quote
Canon XLV.
Let a bishop, presbyter, or deacon, who has only prayed with heretics, be excommunicated: but if he has permitted them to perform any clerical office, let him be deposed.

Canon XLVI.
We ordain that a bishop, or presbyter, who has admitted the baptism or sacrifice of heretics, be deposed. For what concord hath Christ with Belial, or what part hath a believer with an infidel?

Canon LXIV.
If any clergyman or layman shall enter into a synagogue of Jews or heretics to pray, let the former be deposed and let the latter be excommunicated.

Pray to the Lord and His All-Holy Mother to guide you. I'll be praying for you.

I guess there is no hope for people like me then, because I am convinced that both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are of one Apostolic Tradition but sadly just separated.  I pray for reconciliation!
There are many Eastern Catholics who believe as you do.

Without resolution of papal supremacy and certain other western innovations, no matter how much an Orthodox might pray for reconciliation between our Churches, we can not say that both the EO and RCC are of 'one Apostolic Tradition.' Were we both truly of One Apostolic Tradition there would be no schism. Many former Eastern Catholics learned the hard way that such a belief could not be sustained given the exercise of Papal prerogatives over the 'universal' Church in spite of lofty words and promises made.
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« Reply #38 on: February 01, 2011, 03:25:09 PM »

Church, not Churches. The Body of Christ is one and cannot be divided, God forbid! That means that there is only One Church of Christ. From an opposite stand-view, if one Church is the Church of Christ, then all the others are the Churches of the Satan. (All the gods of the pagans are demons, Scripture says.) So, if you consider the EO Church the right one, then the Catholic one is the work of Satan and vice versa. You just have to choose. One cannot serve two masters.

Have we also forgotten the Canons of the Holy Apostles?
Quote
Canon XLV.
Let a bishop, presbyter, or deacon, who has only prayed with heretics, be excommunicated: but if he has permitted them to perform any clerical office, let him be deposed.

Canon XLVI.
We ordain that a bishop, or presbyter, who has admitted the baptism or sacrifice of heretics, be deposed. For what concord hath Christ with Belial, or what part hath a believer with an infidel?

Canon LXIV.
If any clergyman or layman shall enter into a synagogue of Jews or heretics to pray, let the former be deposed and let the latter be excommunicated.

Pray to the Lord and His All-Holy Mother to guide you. I'll be praying for you.

I guess there is no hope for people like me then, because I am convinced that both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are of one Apostolic Tradition but sadly just separated.  I pray for reconciliation!
There are many Eastern Catholics who believe as you do.

Without resolution of papal supremacy and certain other western innovations, no matter how much an Orthodox might pray for reconciliation between our Churches, we can not say that both the EO and RCC are of 'one Apostolic Tradition.' Were we both truly of One Apostolic Tradition there would be no schism.

I understand that is the perspective the Orthodox Church/faithful have of the Catholic Church, and I almost wish the Catholic Church/faithful had the exact same perspective of the Orthodox Church…but then the two would be truly irreconcilable.
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« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2011, 04:31:47 PM »

Church, not Churches. The Body of Christ is one and cannot be divided, God forbid! That means that there is only One Church of Christ. From an opposite stand-view, if one Church is the Church of Christ, then all the others are the Churches of the Satan. (All the gods of the pagans are demons, Scripture says.) So, if you consider the EO Church the right one, then the Catholic one is the work of Satan and vice versa. You just have to choose. One cannot serve two masters.

Have we also forgotten the Canons of the Holy Apostles?
Quote
Canon XLV.
Let a bishop, presbyter, or deacon, who has only prayed with heretics, be excommunicated: but if he has permitted them to perform any clerical office, let him be deposed.

Canon XLVI.
We ordain that a bishop, or presbyter, who has admitted the baptism or sacrifice of heretics, be deposed. For what concord hath Christ with Belial, or what part hath a believer with an infidel?

Canon LXIV.
If any clergyman or layman shall enter into a synagogue of Jews or heretics to pray, let the former be deposed and let the latter be excommunicated.

Pray to the Lord and His All-Holy Mother to guide you. I'll be praying for you.

I guess there is no hope for people like me then, because I am convinced that both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are of one Apostolic Tradition but sadly just separated.  I pray for reconciliation!
There are many Eastern Catholics who believe as you do.

Without resolution of papal supremacy and certain other western innovations, no matter how much an Orthodox might pray for reconciliation between our Churches, we can not say that both the EO and RCC are of 'one Apostolic Tradition.' Were we both truly of One Apostolic Tradition there would be no schism. Many former Eastern Catholics learned the hard way that such a belief could not be sustained given the exercise of Papal prerogatives over the 'universal' Church in spite of lofty words and promises made.
Yeah, once we can resolve Eastern Orthodox innovations, then we can restore full communion.
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« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2011, 04:54:15 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

I'm sorry y'all, but there is way to much Orthodox pontificating on this thread, we should pray for humility.  Unless anyone us actually live with Trevor, or attend his church or are part of is direct social-support system, or he attends any of our own Orthodox parishes, we should really be respectful of those who are.  Again, as a youth minister, we can NEVER tell kids to go directly against the wishes of their parents and families, and further, it is dangerous to promote division in families or ideological purity.  Let us have our polemics and schism arguments in separation from our compassionate reasoning and mentoring of our youth.  I nor anyone else ever suggested that Trevor stay away from Orthodox, but when any of you suggest he should just run away from his family, from his upbringing, from his spiritual family, from his cultural, in the name of our own idealogies, well that is just plain selfish, naive, and even prideful.  We can all help, guide, and pray for and with Trevor as he becomes a young man in Orthodox,  but we can not be so silly as to believe our internet friendships can supercede his real life social support system and family.  In this regard, we should all really mind our business. 

Trevor is too young to fight our own purist battles, this is not 451 or 1054 or 1446 or any of those battlefields, this is the real world, so lets live in it people.  Let the young man pick his way, and let us support him and his family in all things, and let God do His own works which He intend from the Beginning.  We must be sources of inspiration, of support, of moral guidance, and mentoring, but not divisive, vitriolic, self-serving chatter and gossip.

Lisa, if you were his direct youth minister at his local parish, then I support what you are saying, and would pray for and encourage your efforts, but if you are just like me, a mentor and internet friend, perhaps you are crossing the line a bit in your suggestions.  No matter how close you may be to Trevor, unless you are actually there in his real, day to day life, and directly involved within his social support system, then you should be a bit more careful.  This is not to disrespect you at all, but seriously, some of your suggestions are rather counter-productive and even dangerous, and they make me cringe a but as well. I will continue to pray for this matter, and in reality, the best thing and the only truly Orthodox thing we can ever advice this young brother to do is to (AND IN THIS EXACT ORDER)

a) always talk to God in prayer first and foremost

b) always talk with his parents (even as an adult, they are still our parents you know)

c) always talk with his own personal priests and father-confessors (which in this case would include both RC and Orthodox)

d) always talk with his personal mentors and support system of family, friends, and us


Oh yeah and Trevor, much love and respect to you my young brother, being a convert to Orthodox as a young man is hard, I have been exactly where you are.  Navigating your way into Orthodox is hard enough, let alone on your own and at times contrary to your family and friends, so I say take it in balance.  Go with God on this way, I have seen that He has been with you thus far, and will continue with you in the future I am quite sure Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie

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« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2011, 05:32:18 PM »

Lisa, if you were his direct youth minister at his local parish, then I support what you are saying, and would pray for and encourage your efforts, but if you are just like me, a mentor and internet friend, perhaps you are crossing the line a bit in your suggestions.  No matter how close you may be to Trevor, unless you are actually there in his real, day to day life, and directly involved within his social support system, then you should be a bit more careful.  This is not to disrespect you at all, but seriously, some of your suggestions are rather counter-productive and even dangerous, and they make me cringe a but as well. I will continue to pray for this matter, and in reality, the best thing and the only truly Orthodox thing we can ever advice this young brother to do is to (AND IN THIS EXACT ORDER)



I never suggested that Trevor go against his family.

He did not go to the RC church last Sunday because his family wanted him to, or to join them in prayer.  No, he walked, by himself, because his dad was too busy to drive him to the Orthodox church.  Therefore, in this case, it had nothing in the least to do with his family and their preferences, nor their bonds of loyalty.

None of my statements were meant to cause harm to Trevor, and I don’t see how they would.

I’m sorry my loyalty to the Faith makes you cringe.
I would have thought that you, as well, would cringe if an Orthodox child was taken to RC Communion regularly, instructed that RC and Orthodoxy is the same, and led astray.  I am not being "judgmental" in the sense you seem to apply to me.  However, yes, I AM discerning the error allowing our youth to think that Roman Catholicism and Orthodoxy are compatible.  They are not.  If Trevor is old enough to have chosen to become Orthodox all on his own, if his parents did not stop his conversion, then I believe he is strong enough and old enough to hear that it is NOT okay to attend RC Mass simply because you like the music or feel nostalgic about the architecture.  Faith is more than the sounds you hear and building structure you see. 

I will not apologize for defending Orthodoxy or trying to promote it in our youth.   I will not apologize for stating that everything you need is within Orthodoxy and you need look nowhere else.   I have said nothing derogatory about any other faith or people.  Perhaps you should reread my statement, which only says that jumping between RC and Orthodoxy, just for convenience sake  (and not per family obligation) is not recommended.
“Let the young man pick his way”, you said.  Well, it seems the young man is asking for our advice and opinions, and that’s exactly what he got.

Seriously, which of my suggestions was “dangerous”?  I would like to know so that I don’t endanger other youth. 
I am not asking out of pride or vanity, I honestly want to know which of my statements would seriously endanger Trevor.
Please explain.

Thanks.
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« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2011, 07:46:17 PM »

Church, not Churches. The Body of Christ is one and cannot be divided, God forbid! That means that there is only One Church of Christ. From an opposite stand-view, if one Church is the Church of Christ, then all the others are the Churches of the Satan. (All the gods of the pagans are demons, Scripture says.) So, if you consider the EO Church the right one, then the Catholic one is the work of Satan and vice versa. You just have to choose. One cannot serve two masters.

Have we also forgotten the Canons of the Holy Apostles?
Quote
Canon XLV.
Let a bishop, presbyter, or deacon, who has only prayed with heretics, be excommunicated: but if he has permitted them to perform any clerical office, let him be deposed.

Canon XLVI.
We ordain that a bishop, or presbyter, who has admitted the baptism or sacrifice of heretics, be deposed. For what concord hath Christ with Belial, or what part hath a believer with an infidel?

Canon LXIV.
If any clergyman or layman shall enter into a synagogue of Jews or heretics to pray, let the former be deposed and let the latter be excommunicated.

Pray to the Lord and His All-Holy Mother to guide you. I'll be praying for you.

I guess there is no hope for people like me then, because I am convinced that both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are of one Apostolic Tradition but sadly just separated.  I pray for reconciliation!
There are many Eastern Catholics who believe as you do.

Without resolution of papal supremacy and certain other western innovations, no matter how much an Orthodox might pray for reconciliation between our Churches, we can not say that both the EO and RCC are of 'one Apostolic Tradition.' Were we both truly of One Apostolic Tradition there would be no schism. Many former Eastern Catholics learned the hard way that such a belief could not be sustained given the exercise of Papal prerogatives over the 'universal' Church in spite of lofty words and promises made.
Yeah, once we can resolve Eastern Orthodox innovations, then we can restore full communion.
LOL. Have you considered stand up?

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2011, 09:03:05 PM »

Church, not Churches. The Body of Christ is one and cannot be divided, God forbid! That means that there is only One Church of Christ. From an opposite stand-view, if one Church is the Church of Christ, then all the others are the Churches of the Satan. (All the gods of the pagans are demons, Scripture says.) So, if you consider the EO Church the right one, then the Catholic one is the work of Satan and vice versa. You just have to choose. One cannot serve two masters.

Have we also forgotten the Canons of the Holy Apostles?
Quote
Canon XLV.
Let a bishop, presbyter, or deacon, who has only prayed with heretics, be excommunicated: but if he has permitted them to perform any clerical office, let him be deposed.

Canon XLVI.
We ordain that a bishop, or presbyter, who has admitted the baptism or sacrifice of heretics, be deposed. For what concord hath Christ with Belial, or what part hath a believer with an infidel?

Canon LXIV.
If any clergyman or layman shall enter into a synagogue of Jews or heretics to pray, let the former be deposed and let the latter be excommunicated.

Pray to the Lord and His All-Holy Mother to guide you. I'll be praying for you.

I guess there is no hope for people like me then, because I am convinced that both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are of one Apostolic Tradition but sadly just separated.  I pray for reconciliation!
There are many Eastern Catholics who believe as you do.

Without resolution of papal supremacy and certain other western innovations, no matter how much an Orthodox might pray for reconciliation between our Churches, we can not say that both the EO and RCC are of 'one Apostolic Tradition.' Were we both truly of One Apostolic Tradition there would be no schism. Many former Eastern Catholics learned the hard way that such a belief could not be sustained given the exercise of Papal prerogatives over the 'universal' Church in spite of lofty words and promises made.
Yeah, once we can resolve Eastern Orthodox innovations, then we can restore full communion.
LOL. Have you considered stand up?

In Christ,
Andrew
Have you?
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« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2011, 09:14:23 PM »

Church, not Churches. The Body of Christ is one and cannot be divided, God forbid! That means that there is only One Church of Christ. From an opposite stand-view, if one Church is the Church of Christ, then all the others are the Churches of the Satan. (All the gods of the pagans are demons, Scripture says.) So, if you consider the EO Church the right one, then the Catholic one is the work of Satan and vice versa. You just have to choose. One cannot serve two masters.

Have we also forgotten the Canons of the Holy Apostles?
Quote
Canon XLV.
Let a bishop, presbyter, or deacon, who has only prayed with heretics, be excommunicated: but if he has permitted them to perform any clerical office, let him be deposed.

Canon XLVI.
We ordain that a bishop, or presbyter, who has admitted the baptism or sacrifice of heretics, be deposed. For what concord hath Christ with Belial, or what part hath a believer with an infidel?

Canon LXIV.
If any clergyman or layman shall enter into a synagogue of Jews or heretics to pray, let the former be deposed and let the latter be excommunicated.

Pray to the Lord and His All-Holy Mother to guide you. I'll be praying for you.

I guess there is no hope for people like me then, because I am convinced that both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are of one Apostolic Tradition but sadly just separated.  I pray for reconciliation!
There are many Eastern Catholics who believe as you do.

Without resolution of papal supremacy and certain other western innovations, no matter how much an Orthodox might pray for reconciliation between our Churches, we can not say that both the EO and RCC are of 'one Apostolic Tradition.' Were we both truly of One Apostolic Tradition there would be no schism. Many former Eastern Catholics learned the hard way that such a belief could not be sustained given the exercise of Papal prerogatives over the 'universal' Church in spite of lofty words and promises made.
Yeah, once we can resolve Eastern Orthodox innovations, then we can restore full communion.
once the Orthodox make some innovations. Given that that hasn't happened in two millenia, I wouldn't hold my breath.
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« Reply #45 on: February 01, 2011, 09:17:56 PM »

Church, not Churches. The Body of Christ is one and cannot be divided, God forbid! That means that there is only One Church of Christ. From an opposite stand-view, if one Church is the Church of Christ, then all the others are the Churches of the Satan. (All the gods of the pagans are demons, Scripture says.) So, if you consider the EO Church the right one, then the Catholic one is the work of Satan and vice versa. You just have to choose. One cannot serve two masters.

Have we also forgotten the Canons of the Holy Apostles?
Quote
Canon XLV.
Let a bishop, presbyter, or deacon, who has only prayed with heretics, be excommunicated: but if he has permitted them to perform any clerical office, let him be deposed.

Canon XLVI.
We ordain that a bishop, or presbyter, who has admitted the baptism or sacrifice of heretics, be deposed. For what concord hath Christ with Belial, or what part hath a believer with an infidel?

Canon LXIV.
If any clergyman or layman shall enter into a synagogue of Jews or heretics to pray, let the former be deposed and let the latter be excommunicated.

Pray to the Lord and His All-Holy Mother to guide you. I'll be praying for you.

I guess there is no hope for people like me then, because I am convinced that both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are of one Apostolic Tradition but sadly just separated.  I pray for reconciliation!

I don't wish to endorse the whole "you pray to demons" thing quoted above, but still I cannot see how you cannot see that the RCs and the Eastern Orthodox Church teach different doctrines.

Different, yes...but I believe the doctrines of the Orthodox and Catholics chruches are directly descendent derivatives of the Apostolic Tradition and (only) therefore reconcilable.
No. The Orthodox Tradition is the Apostolic Tradition. Not a derivative thereof.

The Vatican's tradition is a derivative, just like the Protestant, Nestorian and Monothelite traditions are derivative of it.  Even further diluted by heresy, the Mormons are even derivative from Apostolic Tradition, but not reconcilable in the least with the Apostolic Tradition of Orthodoxy.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
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« Reply #46 on: February 01, 2011, 09:20:14 PM »

Here is an Eastern Catholic web site with a version using prayers familiar to the eastern tradition of praying.

What a great alternative!
Mixing heresy with Orthodoxy just gives you heresy. If you find that an attractive alternative to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, you are welcome to it.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
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« Reply #47 on: February 01, 2011, 09:23:15 PM »

I'd just like to add that this particular Catholic Church is where all of the immigrate Poles would go (we got many eastern european immegrants, as we have a large steel mill.)  there was a time when they would say mass in Polish for people like my grandparents.  I still have fond memories of sitting down with my grandmother and her golden rosery (which she left me in her will, btw) and her teaching me the prayers in Polish.  (she also taught me the "Our Father" in Ukrainian, because her great grandfather was Ukrainian, and taught it to her when she was a little girl).  I don't know...I guess I just feel a cultural connection to this Church.  all of my grandparents (except my Protestand German grandmother) were Catholic.  most people talk about how their culturally Orthodox. when I think about it, my culture is Roman Catholic (ok, a bit Lutheran, too.)

also, I keep getting in little fights with my dad.  he is almost a catechumen.  last time, I didn't go to liturgy because he'd just yell at me at coffee hour.  we clearly have some issues we need to work out.  and, I know it's terrible (but, hey, I'm a teenager) but I sortof feel like he's stepping in on my territory.  it's fine that he wants to be Orthodox.  now he wants to serve in the altar.  I don't know.....I'm having a hard time expressing Christian love toward him, right now. 


please, forgive the rant!  I just figured I would get this out there for commentary.   Wink
btw, on that, since you are going to the same Church you should discuss this with your priest, as it seems the problem is spilling out in Church.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
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« Reply #48 on: February 01, 2011, 09:26:21 PM »

my father wasn't able to drive me to vespers last Sat., so I walked to my old Church for mass.  I must say, I have really been missing it.  I would never leave Holy Orthodoxy, mind you!  I spoke to the priest of the parish (he pulled me aside at the end) and he said he would pray for me, and to ask the Blessed Mother for guidance. 

what is the best thing to do when you miss your old Church?

The grass is always greener on the other side, my friend Wink

What do you miss specifically, might I ask, other than the familiarity of it?
specifically, there were several beautiful Latin hymns they sung before communion, and I loved those.  ("Sanctus, Sanctus, Sanctus", etc.).  I also really liked the architecture of the Church.  lastly, I miss praying the rosery.  I know that the prayer rope is the rosery for us Orthodox, but it's not really the same. 
WRO pray the rosary. It is not an Eastern tradition, however.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
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« Reply #49 on: February 01, 2011, 09:32:45 PM »

Here is an Eastern Catholic web site with a version using prayers familiar to the eastern tradition of praying.

What a great alternative!
Mixing heresy with Orthodoxy just gives you heresy. If you find that an attractive alternative to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, you are welcome to it.

I wasn't suggesting an alternative church. Only a format for seeking the intercessions of the Theotokos.
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And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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« Reply #50 on: February 01, 2011, 10:05:23 PM »

Yeah, once we can resolve Eastern Orthodox innovations, then we can restore full communion.
LOL. Have you considered stand up?

In Christ,
Andrew
Have you?
No sir, I am no comedian. Just a poor college boy. Wink

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #51 on: February 02, 2011, 10:20:10 AM »

Church, not Churches. The Body of Christ is one and cannot be divided, God forbid! That means that there is only One Church of Christ. From an opposite stand-view, if one Church is the Church of Christ, then all the others are the Churches of the Satan. (All the gods of the pagans are demons, Scripture says.) So, if you consider the EO Church the right one, then the Catholic one is the work of Satan and vice versa. You just have to choose. One cannot serve two masters.

Have we also forgotten the Canons of the Holy Apostles?
Quote
Canon XLV.
Let a bishop, presbyter, or deacon, who has only prayed with heretics, be excommunicated: but if he has permitted them to perform any clerical office, let him be deposed.

Canon XLVI.
We ordain that a bishop, or presbyter, who has admitted the baptism or sacrifice of heretics, be deposed. For what concord hath Christ with Belial, or what part hath a believer with an infidel?

Canon LXIV.
If any clergyman or layman shall enter into a synagogue of Jews or heretics to pray, let the former be deposed and let the latter be excommunicated.

Pray to the Lord and His All-Holy Mother to guide you. I'll be praying for you.

I guess there is no hope for people like me then, because I am convinced that both the Orthodox and Catholic Churches are of one Apostolic Tradition but sadly just separated.  I pray for reconciliation!

I don't wish to endorse the whole "you pray to demons" thing quoted above, but still I cannot see how you cannot see that the RCs and the Eastern Orthodox Church teach different doctrines.

Different, yes...but I believe the doctrines of the Orthodox and Catholics chruches are directly descendent derivatives of the Apostolic Tradition and (only) therefore reconcilable.
No. The Orthodox Tradition is the Apostolic Tradition. Not a derivative thereof.

The Vatican's tradition is a derivative, just like the Protestant, Nestorian and Monothelite traditions are derivative of it.  Even further diluted by heresy, the Mormons are even derivative from Apostolic Tradition, but not reconcilable in the least with the Apostolic Tradition of Orthodoxy.

I said "...the doctrines...are...derivatives of the Apostolic Tradition..."

I continue to pray for clear thought and understanding, yours and mine.
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« Reply #52 on: February 02, 2011, 10:28:50 AM »

Here is an Eastern Catholic web site with a version using prayers familiar to the eastern tradition of praying.

What a great alternative!
Mixing heresy with Orthodoxy just gives you heresy. If you find that an attractive alternative to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, you are welcome to it.

I wasn't suggesting an alternative church. Only a format for seeking the intercessions of the Theotokos.

Yes, I think I missed something...how is it that praying the Rosary, which includes Our Fathers, Hail Marys and contemplation of the the five Mysteries of Christ a heresy??

I continue to pray for clear thought and understanding, yours and mine.
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« Reply #53 on: February 02, 2011, 10:57:24 AM »

Here is an Eastern Catholic web site with a version using prayers familiar to the eastern tradition of praying.

What a great alternative!
Mixing heresy with Orthodoxy just gives you heresy. If you find that an attractive alternative to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, you are welcome to it.

I wasn't suggesting an alternative church. Only a format for seeking the intercessions of the Theotokos.

Yes, I think I missed something...how is it that praying the Rosary, which includes Our Fathers, Hail Marys and contemplation of the the five Mysteries of Christ a heresy??

I continue to pray for clear thought and understanding, yours and mine.

I think that we all tend to trot out certain words too cavalierly, 'heresy' and 'heretic' being among the most dangerous to use in an improper context. 'Heterodox' is more appropriate in this context in terms of the Rosary being a religious expression that differs from commonly accepted Orthodox practice, but falls short of 'heresy'. I would hesitate to call the Rosary a 'heretical' practice as I find it more than difficult to envision the pious old women I remember from childhood being 'branded' as heretics.
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« Reply #54 on: February 02, 2011, 12:05:48 PM »

Here is an Eastern Catholic web site with a version using prayers familiar to the eastern tradition of praying.

What a great alternative!

Mixing heresy with Orthodoxy just gives you heresy. If you find that an attractive alternative to the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, you are welcome to it.

I wasn't suggesting an alternative church. Only a format for seeking the intercessions of the Theotokos.

Yes, I think I missed something...how is it that praying the Rosary, which includes Our Fathers, Hail Marys and contemplation of the the five Mysteries of Christ a heresy??

I continue to pray for clear thought and understanding, yours and mine.

I think that we all tend to trot out certain words too cavalierly, 'heresy' and 'heretic' being among the most dangerous to use in an improper context. 'Heterodox' is more appropriate in this context in terms of the Rosary being a religious expression that differs from commonly accepted Orthodox practice, but falls short of 'heresy'. I would hesitate to call the Rosary a 'heretical' practice as I find it more than difficult to envision the pious old women I remember from childhood being 'branded' as heretics.

Seeking the intercessions of the Theotokos is not at all offensive to Orthodoxy, and neither is using beads or knots to pray. This particular way of doing so may not be too commonly practiced in eastern tradition, but there is nothing wrong with it as long as you focus on prayer and not things of your own imagining.
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« Reply #55 on: February 02, 2011, 12:45:31 PM »

my father wasn't able to drive me to vespers last Sat., so I walked to my old Church for mass.  I must say, I have really been missing it.  I would never leave Holy Orthodoxy, mind you!  I spoke to the priest of the parish (he pulled me aside at the end) and he said he would pray for me, and to ask the Blessed Mother for guidance. 

what is the best thing to do when you miss your old Church?

Trevor I wonder if what you are really missing is the feeling of family of your old church.  You are able to walk there instead of drive so it must be close by you.  And the priest was kind enough to seek you out and talk to you.  Did you go to that your church your whole life?
When I read you first post, my first thought was why on earth is someone fromyour new Orthodox Church not picking up for church?  Secondly I wondered if you were missed by people in your new Orthodox Church when you didn't show up for vespers.  And does the Orthodox priests know what a sacrifice you are making by converting and keep in touch with you?  The feeling that you are part of the "Family of God" in your parish is important.  Everyone needs to be loved.
I drive my mother and a number of her widowed friends to meetings at our church during the week.   IF these ladies were not picked up they wouldn't bgo.  ITs a small thing but important to them and of course to the life of the church.
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« Reply #56 on: February 02, 2011, 02:34:03 PM »

I do not understand what the problem is. Whenever I became Catholic, I did not feel like I was giving everything up from my Protestant days. The fact is, even though there are definite errors within Protestantism, there is a lot good within Protestantism as well. Those things which did not directly conflict with Catholicism I tended to hold on to. An example is praying using one's own words instead of praying written prayers. I do pray a lot of written prayers of my Church such as the Act of Contrition and the Rosary. However, sometimes I just make the Sign of the Cross and then begin praying in my own words. I am not sure how common this is amongst cradle Catholics, but I know it is a lot more common in Protestant circles, especially in the evangelical/holiness movement.

I think you can still listen to Latin music and pray the Rosary without feeling like you are betraying Eastern Orthodoxy. Talk to you priest and ask him if you have any doubts. I am sure he would have no problem with it, especially if you mention to him that you are going to be using the Eastern Orthodox version of the Rosary.
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