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Author Topic: Insight from a agnostic/protestant friend...  (Read 1581 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: January 29, 2011, 12:56:00 AM »

Ok, so I was talking to my friend (previously protestant, now agnostic) about Mary recently (of course, not the smartest idea!) And he started to give me his 'rationalization' of how and why Catholics 'worship' Mary (he doesn't know much about Orthodox, given he's from a western background). I was somewhat astonished and taken aback by the depth of his criticism, as he either spent quite a bit of time thinking about it, or got it from some protestant anti-catholic source (the latter being most likely). Of course, I told him that catholics don't worship her, they just see her as very important and influential (but the depth of my response was somewhat shallow in comparison to his critique). Anyways, what he said went something like this:

God the father, infinitely upset and offended by man's offense, sent Jesus his son to earth to sacrifice him for our sins. Eventually, Jesus gradually began to play less and less of an active role in man's salvation, and became more and more looked at like a passive sacrifice or sin-offering, and Mary gradually took over the role as the active intercessor before God. Jesus was considered to be a passive Judge, who exercised the divine justice of the Father, (someone to be feared) and simply decided based on your sin-status, whether you will go to heaven or to hell. Now Mary was regarded as the compassionate one, who cared about everyone, (someone not to be feared, who won't judge you) regardless of whether they were good or bad, and pleaded with her Son not to condemn them to hell. Therefore, she is seen as effectively more compassionate and caring than either Jesus or God the Father, elevating her importance above them, and making her the 'go-to' in times of peril and ultimately the one who is worthy of worship and devotion.

Also, he mentioned the motherly influence factor. Mary was Christ's mother, and since she was his mother, she had power over him, and he is obedient to her. So if you ask her something, Christ will most likely do it.

I know this is a very skewed notion, but my response to him, as I mentioned, was somewhat lacking. Perhaps some Catholics and Orthodox can weigh in on this, and provide me with something more substantial to bring to the table next time this conversation comes up?
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« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2011, 01:04:33 AM »

So what?
I've always felt that the Mother of the Lord was the most approachable person in the divine hierarchy we mortals have.
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« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2011, 01:50:10 AM »

The question is ultiamtely, is the veneration of Mary by Orthodox and Catholics appropiate or is it overemphasising her? My position is of course the Orthodox position that as the Mother of God, chosen out of all women on the earth to bare Jesus she is accounted this veneration and respect. Jesus did honour his Mother's requests, but are we to assume she would ask Jesus to do something that was immoral? I would dare say if she did Mary, would not have been chosen, instead she is faithful to God, her son and Creator. So is it worship? No, its just proper respect accorded to her. Ultimately I think its some of that protestantism influencing his decision. No offence to your friend, he seems liked he has really thought this out.
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« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2011, 05:09:46 AM »

I'm not sure where your friend gets the idea that Jesus is not compassionate. He would not have allowed Himself to be severely scourged and tortured and then ultimately put to death on Calvary if He was not filled with compassion for mankind.
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« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2011, 06:37:45 AM »

I'm not sure where your friend gets the idea that Jesus is not compassionate. He would not have allowed Himself to be severely scourged and tortured and then ultimately put to death on Calvary if He was not filled with compassion for mankind.

The impression my friend is under is basically that he was sent by God the Father on a "suicide mission" without much say in the matter.
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« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2011, 07:27:14 AM »

Quote
Also, he mentioned the motherly influence factor. Mary was Christ's mother, and since she was his mother, she had power over him, and he is obedient to her. So if you ask her something, Christ will most likely do it.

There is nothing inherently wrong with this sentiment; it just needs to be put into context. Consider the following paragraph from a beautiful prayer of an 18th century Armenian Catholicos to the Holy Virgin:

Now, O Holy Mary, Bearer of God, what would God the Father withhold from you, He who loved you so much that He granted you His Only-begotten Son through whom He created all creatures? What would God the Son withhold from you that you would ask of Him, He who loved you so much that He dwelt in your womb and sat in your lap, who feeds all but was fed from your breasts, who was your God and Lord but became your son and called you mother? God the Spirit, too, loved you so much that He entrusted His co-equal in essence to you and He who adorns everything rested in you and made you the lodging place for His unending gifts. What could be lacking that you do not possess? For I truly believe that, according to the angel’s word, the Lord and Giver of all spiritual gifts is with you, (Luke 1:28) and your Son is verily in your lap. Whatever your Son has is yours, and whatever you ask of Him, He will not withhold. And you are able to give to whomever you will: as your Son says through the mouth of Solomon, “Ask, my mother; for whatever you may ask, I shall not turn my face away.”

So yes, in the Holy Virgin we have a compassionate Mother figure whose intercessions draw uniquely remarkable favour from the Father, Son and Holy Spirit; yet such was only ever possible in the first place because, a) the Father loved her so much as to grant her His Son, b) the Son loved her so much that He humbled Himself to be born and raised as her son, and, c) the Holy Spirit loved her so much that He entrusted her with the Son's care. In short, her role as powerful intercessor for the human race was founded by, and remains grounded in, the Loving Grace of the Holy Trinity.

Quote
Mary was regarded as the compassionate one, who cared about everyone, (someone not to be feared, who won't judge you) regardless of whether they were good or bad, and pleaded with her Son not to condemn them to hell. Therefore, she is seen as effectively more compassionate and caring than either Jesus or God the Father, elevating her importance above them, and making her the 'go-to' in times of peril and ultimately the one who is worthy of worship and devotion.

I think it's worth recalling the common patristic interpretation of Christ declaring the Holy Virgin to be the mother of St John the Apostle. Many Fathers have taken this declaration to be a statement of her universal motherhood to mankind. Having known firsthand the wonderful experience of a mother's love, the Lord Christ in His empathetic love to mankind thought it fit to offer His own Mother to us that we all may similarly enjoy her maternal care.

In general, everything which draws us to the Holy Virgin—from her capacity as a powerful intercessor to her ability to attend to us with the sympathetic gentleness and compassion of a mother—is ultimately attributable to the Loving Grace of God without which the Holy Virgin would to us sadly be no more than a memory of a righteous Jewish woman who lived some two millennia ago.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 07:32:26 AM by EkhristosAnesti » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2011, 03:14:36 PM »

The impression my friend is under is basically that he was sent by God the Father on a "suicide mission" without much say in the matter.
Does your friend not grasp the concept of the Trinity?
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« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2011, 03:50:12 PM »

I'm not sure where your friend gets the idea that Jesus is not compassionate. He would not have allowed Himself to be severely scourged and tortured and then ultimately put to death on Calvary if He was not filled with compassion for mankind.

The impression my friend is under is basically that he was sent by God the Father on a "suicide mission" without much say in the matter.

Even Milton wouldn't put it that way.
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« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2011, 07:02:44 PM »

The impression my friend is under is basically that he was sent by God the Father on a "suicide mission" without much say in the matter.
Does your friend not grasp the concept of the Trinity?

Most protestants don't...
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« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2011, 12:22:31 AM »

The impression my friend is under is basically that he was sent by God the Father on a "suicide mission" without much say in the matter.
Does your friend not grasp the concept of the Trinity?

Most protestants don't...
That is a pretty sweeping statement, especially since there is really no way to speak of Protestantism as a whole since there are so many vastly different denominations within Protestantism. As a United Methodist, and especially when attending Lutheran school, I got a pretty good grasp on the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. Well, as good of a grasp as any human can since the doctrine itself seems paradoxical to the finite human mind.
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« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2011, 01:17:59 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


God the father, infinitely upset and offended by man's offense, sent Jesus his son to earth to sacrifice him for our sins. Eventually, Jesus gradually began to play less and less of an active role in man's salvation, and became more and more looked at like a passive sacrifice or sin-offering, and Mary gradually took over the role as the active intercessor before God. Jesus was considered to be a passive Judge, who exercised the divine justice of the Father, (someone to be feared) and simply decided based on your sin-status, whether you will go to heaven or to hell. Now Mary was regarded as the compassionate one, who cared about everyone, (someone not to be feared, who won't judge you) regardless of whether they were good or bad, and pleaded with her Son not to condemn them to hell. Therefore, she is seen as effectively more compassionate and caring than either Jesus or God the Father, elevating her importance above them, and making her the 'go-to' in times of peril and ultimately the one who is worthy of worship and devotion.

That is a flawed, outsider interpretation of veneration.  If the source of any of the answered petitions or prayers to Mary remains the Son or the Father then She is not worthy of worship or devotion but still the Father and the Son.  Further, in Mariology, Mary is not just important as an intercessor, but more importantly as a crucial aspect of Orthodox Christology in being the Mother of God, having given Jesus Christ His Human Nature.  Mary in a literal sense, is then incorporated into Salvation not just in an intercessory kind of way, but in a metaphysical, supernatural kind of way beyond personal relationships, but delving more into theological concepts.  When we venerate Our Lady, we commemorate the true and perfect Humanity of Jesus Christ, which is the source of our Salvation.  But Mary is our Mother, and She does have an intercessory power, but that is not entirely it.  Mothers on earth are not comforting necessarily because they can give you everything you want or ask, but sometimes just their presence, their attention is consoling and reassuring.  In this way, just the thought of Our Lady can be comforting in prayer, to be consoled not necessarily by a quid pro quo relationship between us, Our Lady and Jesus, but more so in the comfort of knowing that our Mother is ever present with us, experience our wounds, enjoying our triumphs, singing in our joy, shedding tears in our sorrows, but always reassuring us in the faithfulness of God in our lives.  Mary is comforting in way a bit different than Jesus Christ, in that She is purely a human being and yet She is full of Grace, and is a true representative of ourselves to the Heavenly Court.  It is sort of reassuring for human beings to know that our Lady is like us, and that she more so than anyone else really knows our lives and what it is to be a human living on faith alone.


Quote
Also, he mentioned the motherly influence factor. Mary was Christ's mother, and since she was his mother, she had power over him, and he is obedient to her. So if you ask her something, Christ will most likely do it.


This seems quite Orthodox to me, and is the common sense response I generally give to pentecostals when discussing Mariology, and it is one that many people can generally relate to.  I often say, "would you feel uncomfortable asking me or someone to pray for you?" Their usual response is something relating to, "Of course not." So I insist then, "Well, when we petition Our Lady it is not different, we are asking another human being to pray for us, just as we may ask any of our earthly mothers, but how much more so comforting and valuable is the petition to the very Mother of our Lord, for surely even according to the commandments to honor thy mother and father with promise, Our Lord must take into consideration the requests and input of Our Lady."  Often they have little to refute in the simplicity of that, it is biblically sound and culturally relevant and doesn't require any complex theology or deep religious understanding.

Also, I posted this last year, I think it is quite relevant here

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
In essence, religion was love; in no case was it logic. Saint Francis of Assisi had declared it loudly enough. The Virgin had asserted it in tones more gentle, but anyone may still see how convincing, who STOPS for a moment to FEEL the emotion that lifted Her wonderful Chartres spire up to God. The Virgin, indeed made all easy, for it was little enough she cared for reason or logic. She cared for Her Baby, a simple matter, which ANY woman could do and understand easily. That, and the Grace of God made Her the Queen of Heaven. The Trinity has its source in Her, totius Trinitatis nobile Triclinium, and She was maternity. She was also poetry and art. In the bankruptcy of reason, She alone was real."
Mont Saint Michel and Chartres by Henry Adams
(this not not cut and paste, I typed this by hand from the book  Smiley )

Quote
There She actually is, not in symbol or in fancy, but in person, descending on her errands of mercy and listening to each one of us, as her miracles prove, or satisfying our prayers merely by her presence which calms our excitement as that of a mother calms her child. She is there as Queen, not merely as intercessor, and her power is such that to her the difference between us earthly beings is nothing. Her quiet, masculine strength enchants us most.. to peasants and beggars and people in trouble, this sense of her power and calm is better than active sympathy. People who suffer beyond the formulas of expression, who are crushed into silence and beyond pain, want no display of emotion, no bleeding heart, no weeping at the foot of the Cross, no hysterics, no phrases! They want to see God, and to know that He is watching over His own..Each of them that has looked up to Her great window and has felt actual certainty as though they saw with their own eyes, there in heaven while they looked on, their own lost ones playing with the Christ child at the Virgin's knee, as much at home there as the Saints, and much more then any kings of the earth! Before rising from their knees, everyone of these people will have bent down and kissed the stone pavement in gratitude for Mary's mercy. The earth, they say, is a sorry place and the best of it is bad enough, no doubt, even for the earthly Queens.. but there is Mary in heaven who sees and hears as we see and hear, and who keeps them all till we come! So we can wait in patience, more or less! Saints and Prophets and martyrs are very well, and Christ is very sublime and just, but Mary knows..
Mont Saint Michel and Chartres by Henry Adams

On this blessed and holy Day of the Dormition of Our Lady according to the EOTC Synaxarium, and after meditating on the beauty of the Divine Liturgy in Her commemoration this morning, those last few lines were particularly impacting to me, to the point of tears of joy Smiley

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2011, 02:08:25 AM »

Orthocat:

I think that, in the Western church, what your friend described may have actually occurred, to some extent.
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« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2011, 02:19:42 AM »

Quote
Also, he mentioned the motherly influence factor. Mary was Christ's mother, and since she was his mother, she had power over him, and he is obedient to her. So if you ask her something, Christ will most likely do it.

There is nothing inherently wrong with this sentiment; it just needs to be put into context. Consider the following paragraph from a beautiful prayer of an 18th century Armenian Catholicos to the Holy Virgin:

Now, O Holy Mary, Bearer of God, what would God the Father withhold from you, He who loved you so much that He granted you His Only-begotten Son through whom He created all creatures? What would God the Son withhold from you that you would ask of Him, He who loved you so much that He dwelt in your womb and sat in your lap, who feeds all but was fed from your breasts, who was your God and Lord but became your son and called you mother? God the Spirit, too, loved you so much that He entrusted His co-equal in essence to you and He who adorns everything rested in you and made you the lodging place for His unending gifts. What could be lacking that you do not possess? For I truly believe that, according to the angel’s word, the Lord and Giver of all spiritual gifts is with you, (Luke 1:28) and your Son is verily in your lap. Whatever your Son has is yours, and whatever you ask of Him, He will not withhold. And you are able to give to whomever you will: as your Son says through the mouth of Solomon, “Ask, my mother; for whatever you may ask, I shall not turn my face away.”

So yes, in the Holy Virgin we have a compassionate Mother figure whose intercessions draw uniquely remarkable favour from the Father, Son and Holy Spirit; yet such was only ever possible in the first place because, a) the Father loved her so much as to grant her His Son, b) the Son loved her so much that He humbled Himself to be born and raised as her son, and, c) the Holy Spirit loved her so much that He entrusted her with the Son's care. In short, her role as powerful intercessor for the human race was founded by, and remains grounded in, the Loving Grace of the Holy Trinity.

Quote
Mary was regarded as the compassionate one, who cared about everyone, (someone not to be feared, who won't judge you) regardless of whether they were good or bad, and pleaded with her Son not to condemn them to hell. Therefore, she is seen as effectively more compassionate and caring than either Jesus or God the Father, elevating her importance above them, and making her the 'go-to' in times of peril and ultimately the one who is worthy of worship and devotion.

I think it's worth recalling the common patristic interpretation of Christ declaring the Holy Virgin to be the mother of St John the Apostle. Many Fathers have taken this declaration to be a statement of her universal motherhood to mankind. Having known firsthand the wonderful experience of a mother's love, the Lord Christ in His empathetic love to mankind thought it fit to offer His own Mother to us that we all may similarly enjoy her maternal care.

In general, everything which draws us to the Holy Virgin—from her capacity as a powerful intercessor to her ability to attend to us with the sympathetic gentleness and compassion of a mother—is ultimately attributable to the Loving Grace of God without which the Holy Virgin would to us sadly be no more than a memory of a righteous Jewish woman who lived some two millennia ago.

Awesome post.  Truly, it is because the favor and grace of the Holy Trinity that allows the Theotokos to be a great intercessor, not because she contradicts the Trinity as this agnostic clearly misconstrues.  Any great saint who is compassionate in intercessions is because of the compassionate properties of the Trinity.

Great to see you posting again EA  Smiley
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« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2011, 03:00:45 AM »

The impression my friend is under is basically that he was sent by God the Father on a "suicide mission" without much say in the matter.
Does your friend not grasp the concept of the Trinity?

Most protestants don't...
That is a pretty sweeping statement, especially since there is really no way to speak of Protestantism as a whole since there are so many vastly different denominations within Protestantism. As a United Methodist, and especially when attending Lutheran school, I got a pretty good grasp on the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. Well, as good of a grasp as any human can since the doctrine itself seems paradoxical to the finite human mind.

just speaking from my experience, of course.
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« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2011, 03:18:49 AM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Quote
In essence, religion was love; in no case was it logic. Saint Francis of Assisi had declared it loudly enough. The Virgin had asserted it in tones more gentle, but anyone may still see how convincing, who STOPS for a moment to FEEL the emotion that lifted Her wonderful Chartres spire up to God. The Virgin, indeed made all easy, for it was little enough she cared for reason or logic. She cared for Her Baby, a simple matter, which ANY woman could do and understand easily. That, and the Grace of God made Her the Queen of Heaven. The Trinity has its source in Her, totius Trinitatis nobile Triclinium, and She was maternity. She was also poetry and art. In the bankruptcy of reason, She alone was real."
Mont Saint Michel and Chartres by Henry Adams

Out of curiousity, how do you interpret this bolded passage, "the Trinity has its source in her?" That almost sounds as if the Godhead originated from her, which I know isn't the case...

Also, the second bolded portion. What does it mean "she alone was real"?

Quote
There She actually is, not in symbol or in fancy, but in person, descending on her errands of mercy and listening to each one of us, as her miracles prove, or satisfying our prayers merely by her presence which calms our excitement as that of a mother calms her child. She is there as Queen, not merely as intercessor, and her power is such that to her the difference between us earthly beings is nothing. Her quiet, masculine strength enchants us most.. to peasants and beggars and people in trouble, this sense of her power and calm is better than active sympathy. People who suffer beyond the formulas of expression, who are crushed into silence and beyond pain, want no display of emotion, no bleeding heart, no weeping at the foot of the Cross, no hysterics, no phrases! They want to see God, and to know that He is watching over His own..Each of them that has looked up to Her great window and has felt actual certainty as though they saw with their own eyes, there in heaven while they looked on, their own lost ones playing with the Christ child at the Virgin's knee, as much at home there as the Saints, and much more then any kings of the earth! Before rising from their knees, everyone of these people will have bent down and kissed the stone pavement in gratitude for Mary's mercy. The earth, they say, is a sorry place and the best of it is bad enough, no doubt, even for the earthly Queens.. but there is Mary in heaven who sees and hears as we see and hear, and who keeps them all till we come! So we can wait in patience, more or less! Saints and Prophets and martyrs are very well, and Christ is very sublime and just, but Mary knows..
Mont Saint Michel and Chartres by Henry Adams

Hmm this bolded portion seems to imply that Mary knows what it's like to be human more than Christ and can therefore relate more closely to our humanity? I'm not sure about that...forgive me, but much of this passage seems to me to affirm much of what was stated in the OP (at least the spirit of it).  That is, Christ is the just judge, but Mary is the compassionate one who can actually relate to us and our emotions better.

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« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2011, 09:50:52 PM »

Greetings in that Divine and Most Precious Name of Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!


Out of curiousity, how do you interpret this bolded passage, "the Trinity has its source in her?" That almost sounds as if the Godhead originated from her, which I know isn't the case...

Also, the second bolded portion. What does it mean "she alone was real"?


Hmm this bolded portion seems to imply that Mary knows what it's like to be human more than Christ and can therefore relate more closely to our humanity? I'm not sure about that...forgive me, but much of this passage seems to me to affirm much of what was stated in the OP (at least the spirit of it).  That is, Christ is the just judge, but Mary is the compassionate one who can actually relate to us and our emotions better.



Yes and no, see the compassionate one would be in the context of intercession, but the author of that quote was implying Mary as a comforter, not an intercessor.  Our Lady is comforting because she is the protypical Christian, and as a purely human being she experienced all that we experience.  Her insight and consolation is therefore very comforting.  Further, in our earthly lives, our mothers are not necessarily comforting because they can answer our every request like a wishmaster, quite the opposite.  Sometimes our human mothers are the most comforting and reassuring thing in our lives precisely because they stand up with us even when they can't help us.  Our mothers can not solve all of our problems, but they go through our problems with us, comforting and consoling us to the best of their ability, and that blind, loving dedication is what is so reassuring.  It is the same way with  Our Lady, Henry Adams implication was that to the 13th century Christians, Our Lady was a realer consolation because, like our earthly mothers, she was not divine and therefore could not necessarily solve all of our problems willfully and yet still she involves herself in our lives to be there with us.  Christ is indeed sublime, because He is Divine, He could solve or problems, but experiences them out of volition, whereas Our Lady is equally subject to them, and yet she still stands up with and for us.  That is indeed venerable, and is why we honor our earthly mothers, who do their absolute humanly best against all odds, and so to is the consolation of Our Lady.  That is why Henry Adams said
Quote
She is there as Queen, not merely as intercessor, and her power is such that to her the difference between us earthly beings is nothing. Her quiet, masculine strength enchants us most.. to peasants and beggars and people in trouble, this sense of her power and calm is better than active sympathy. People who suffer beyond the formulas of expression, who are crushed into silence and beyond pain, want no display of emotion, no bleeding heart, no weeping at the foot of the Cross, no hysterics, no phrases! They want to see God, and to know that He is watching over His own
In regards to our ability to know the Trinity, it is only through the Incarnation that one of the Trinity came to us, and so it is rightful that we call Our Lady the Eastern Horizon where our Dawn always rises, and it is through Mary that we are given access to Christ, not in an intercessory aspect, but in a truly physical way, as Jesus Christ's physical flesh and blood come through our Lady Mary.  So that was Henry Adam's implication.  In that she alone was real is a bit more poetic, she alone was really ONLY human is the missing word there, and in all honesty, from my own perspective it is very comforting to know that other human beings go through the same kinds of lives I do.  Christ is Divine, He can overcome these things, but what of us lowly human beings? Our Lady is one of us, a lowly maidservant who experienced life just as we do, not being the Essence of Grace, but rather Full (or Filled) of Grace from God.  That is how she alone is real, in the sense of she alone is really human, and humans are social creatures.  This is not to put Mary above God or the Trinity, rather it is to put Her in Her proper human context, and my own mother is infinitely comforting to me because she loves me even when she can't necessarily do anything about, and thus it is why Our Lady also puts tears in my eyes, because even if she can't intercede for me, she cares enough to witness my life and be there with me, in God's Grace and God's Will, but as a human being subject to that.  Christ is not subject to God's Will, He is God's Will, and so sometimes when God's Will is contrary to our own human will, it can hurt our feelings.  Mary is there to remind us that it is ok to have hurt feelings because She also endured when God's Will seemed most contrary to human will,  at the Manger instead of the Inn, in Egypt instead of at home safe, and in the end at the foot of the Cross and at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher when God Her Son should not have been able to die and yet did.

This is why Adams said
Quote
The earth, they say, is a sorry place and the best of it is bad enough, no doubt, even for the earthly Queens.. but there is Mary in heaven who sees and hears as we see and hear, and who keeps them all till we come! So we can wait in patience, more or less!

stay blessed,
habte selassie
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"Yet stand aloof from stupid questionings and geneologies and strifes and fightings about law, for they are without benefit and vain." Titus 3:10
theistgal
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don't even go there!


« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2011, 11:53:04 AM »

"Her quiet *masculine* strength"Huh Wink

FWIW I think the OP's Protestant friend makes some good points. You might explain to him that some people, out of an excess of devotion, tend to exaggerate the actual teaching of the church about Mary - and point out that some Protestants do the same thing with the Bible, throwing out Scripture verses as though they're magical incantations.

Maybe the answer is that all us Christians tend to be a little nuts on one subject or another. Wink
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"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
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