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Author Topic: Pictures from the Polish Church from the interwar era  (Read 7155 times) Average Rating: 0
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mike
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« on: January 28, 2011, 08:58:10 AM »

A bunch of pictures from the Polish Autocephalous Orthodox Church from the interwar era. I hope you won't mind google translator.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 09:03:09 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2011, 10:07:59 AM »



I am shocked! Why did those Orthodox Belarussians and Ukrainians allow the imperialist Polish burżuj(bourgeoise) dictator in their church?
They should of crucified him, because he stood against the armies of Orthodox Soviet Union.
My God, those Orthodox promoted the enemies of Sovyetskaya Byelarus! (Soviet Belarus)
My God! Those Orthodox are pledging allegiance to the Polish Republic!
Another shocking thing is that the Metropolitan of the Orthodox Church is asking the President of Poland for permission to call the Sobor of the Orthodox Church in Poland. oH MY GOD, they acknowledged the Polish Republic! The Patriarch of Romania is blessing the soldiers of Poland!! Why is he not spitting on them, and speaking of the glory of Stalin, on how Sovyetskaya Byelarus should stretch from Łomża east!
Tell me Misha! Tell me, why?!? This ruins my image of  Orthodox being Soviet servants who promoted the idea of Sovyetskaya Byelarus, which you propagate!

« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 10:09:44 AM by synLeszka » Logged
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« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2011, 12:04:46 PM »

Did many Whites flee to Poland after the October revolution?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 12:18:47 PM by augustin717 » Logged
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« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2011, 01:38:16 PM »

I am shocked! Why did those Orthodox Belarussians and Ukrainians allow the imperialist Polish burżuj(bourgeoise) dictator in their church?
They should of crucified him, because he stood against the armies of Orthodox Soviet Union.
My God, those Orthodox promoted the enemies of Sovyetskaya Byelarus! (Soviet Belarus)
My God! Those Orthodox are pledging allegiance to the Polish Republic!
Another shocking thing is that the Metropolitan of the Orthodox Church is asking the President of Poland for permission to call the Sobor of the Orthodox Church in Poland. oH MY GOD, they acknowledged the Polish Republic! The Patriarch of Romania is blessing the soldiers of Poland!! Why is he not spitting on them, and speaking of the glory of Stalin, on how Sovyetskaya Byelarus should stretch from Łomża east!
Tell me Misha! Tell me, why?!? This ruins my image of  Orthodox being Soviet servants who promoted the idea of Sovyetskaya Byelarus, which you propagate!

It's unpleasant to see when one is trying to be ironic and he doesn't succeed.
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« Reply #4 on: January 28, 2011, 03:57:54 PM »



I am shocked! Why did those Orthodox Belarussians and Ukrainians allow the imperialist Polish burżuj(bourgeoise) dictator in their church?
They should of crucified him, because he stood against the armies of Orthodox Soviet Union.
My God, those Orthodox promoted the enemies of Sovyetskaya Byelarus! (Soviet Belarus)
My God! Those Orthodox are pledging allegiance to the Polish Republic!
Another shocking thing is that the Metropolitan of the Orthodox Church is asking the President of Poland for permission to call the Sobor of the Orthodox Church in Poland. oH MY GOD, they acknowledged the Polish Republic! The Patriarch of Romania is blessing the soldiers of Poland!! Why is he not spitting on them, and speaking of the glory of Stalin, on how Sovyetskaya Byelarus should stretch from Łomża east!
Tell me Misha! Tell me, why?!? This ruins my image of  Orthodox being Soviet servants who promoted the idea of Sovyetskaya Byelarus, which you propagate!



....what
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« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2011, 08:25:34 AM »

Did many Whites flee to Poland after the October revolution?

Not many, I would say, not many. Not more than 200.000,  I think.

Quote from: Michał Kalina
It's unpleasant to see when one is trying to be ironic and he doesn't succeed.

Tell me, why, they are praying for the soul of the Marshall Józef Piłsudski in their cathedral, even going so far as placing a statue of him the front of the nave?
It is nice to now that the Orthodox Church does not promote a mixture of Stalinist propaganda, Orthodox Christianity, and phantasies which the so-called Orthodox ethnic organisations promote. Thank God, that the Orthodox Church does not promote the people who want to create Soviet Belarus and Zakierzonia. It's time to accept your hierarchs, Misza. Listen to them, listen to your bishops and priests.
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« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2011, 08:30:13 AM »

I can't tell I understand a single word from you, really.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 08:34:04 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2011, 10:43:58 AM »

Interesting pictures.  One thing I noticed is the clergy in the pictures appear to be wearing Russian style vestments.  Is that still the norm in the Polish church?
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 10:44:19 AM by AMM » Logged
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« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2011, 10:45:22 AM »

Interesting pictures.  One thing I noticed is the clergy in the pictures appear to be wearing Russian style vestments.  Is that still the norm in the Polish church?

Yes.
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« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2011, 12:07:50 PM »

Interesting pictures.  One thing I noticed is the clergy in the pictures appear to be wearing Russian style vestments.  Is that still the norm in the Polish church?

Yes.

I realize that is the style in the north of Poland. Is that also the case closer to the Slovak border along the Tatras?
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« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2011, 12:20:28 PM »

Maybe, in the Przemyśl-Nowy Sącz Diocese.
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« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2011, 12:29:33 PM »

Did many Whites flee to Poland after the October revolution?

Not many, I would say, not many. Not more than 200.000,  I think.

Quote from: Michał Kalina
It's unpleasant to see when one is trying to be ironic and he doesn't succeed.

Tell me, why, they are praying for the soul of the Marshall Józef Piłsudski in their cathedral, even going so far as placing a statue of him the front of the nave?
It is nice to now that the Orthodox Church does not promote a mixture of Stalinist propaganda, Orthodox Christianity, and phantasies which the so-called Orthodox ethnic organisations promote.

The only phantasies I see being promoted are by snide Lechs.


Thank God, that the Orthodox Church does not promote the people who want to create Soviet Belarus and Zakierzonia.
Thank God they survived Brest-Lvov.  Holy Martyr Athanasius of Brest stands before the Throne of their Protector interceding.


He very often during tough days prayed to Kupiaticka icon of the Mother of God. Once, while reading akaphist, the Saint heard the Theotokos: ‘Athanasius you should stand before the Sejm and show everyone my Kupiaticka icon put on the cross.  Preach the king and Polish people that they should change their attitude otherwise they will be punished.  Firstly, they have to stand against the Union, this is the most important and can help them’.  Saint Athanasius followed the directions and in 1643 he went to the Sejm meeting in Warsaw.  On his journey he stopped at St. Onuphrius Monastery in Jabłeczna and prayed to the saint for help. At the Sejm session St. Athansius gave magnates and senators the Kupiaticka icons of the Mother of God together with the Theotokos’ warning of God’s anger for approving the Union and persecuting the Orthodox people by the Jesuits and Uniats. He also threatened the Polish king with God’s anger if the Union was not ended and the Orthodox Church did not regain its rights.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 12:32:29 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2011, 12:34:12 PM »

I am shocked! Why did those Orthodox Belarussians and Ukrainians allow the imperialist Polish burżuj(bourgeoise) dictator in their church?
They should of crucified him, because he stood against the armies of Orthodox Soviet Union.
My God, those Orthodox promoted the enemies of Sovyetskaya Byelarus! (Soviet Belarus)
My God! Those Orthodox are pledging allegiance to the Polish Republic!
Another shocking thing is that the Metropolitan of the Orthodox Church is asking the President of Poland for permission to call the Sobor of the Orthodox Church in Poland. oH MY GOD, they acknowledged the Polish Republic! The Patriarch of Romania is blessing the soldiers of Poland!! Why is he not spitting on them, and speaking of the glory of Stalin, on how Sovyetskaya Byelarus should stretch from Łomża east!
Tell me Misha! Tell me, why?!? This ruins my image of  Orthodox being Soviet servants who promoted the idea of Sovyetskaya Byelarus, which you propagate!

Snarkiness exceeded only by incoherence.
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« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2011, 12:47:58 PM »

Maybe, in the Przemyśl-Nowy Sącz Diocese.

Prior to the forced relocation of the Lemko population following the War, the Greek style would have more prevalent I suppose.
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« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2011, 10:54:49 AM »

I can't tell I understand a single word from you, really.

Okay,...
You have massacred the Piłsudski regime in many of your posts, and bemoaned the wrongs of the 1918-1939 era. Why does your church not agree with you? Why did your spiritual fathers pray for the soul of the Marshall, yet you denigrate him?

Why did the Orthodox in the 1920's and 1930's feel to be Polish, yet you promote the concept of Soviet Belarus?

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« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2011, 11:10:47 AM »

You have massacred the Piłsudski regime in many of your posts, and bemoaned the wrongs of the 1918-1939 era. Why does your church not agree with you? Why did your spiritual fathers pray for the soul of the Marshall, yet you denigrate him?


Quote from: Luke 6, 26-28
"But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you.

Quote
Why did the Orthodox in the 1920's and 1930's feel to be Polish

Some felt to be Polish, some propably felt to be Martians. That's their problem, not mine. I am a Belarusian.

Quote
, yet you promote the concept of Soviet Belarus?

Where? Prove it.
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 11:16:56 AM by Michał Kalina » Logged

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« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2011, 12:59:34 PM »

I can't tell I understand a single word from you, really.

Okay,...
You have massacred the Piłsudski regime in many of your posts, and bemoaned the wrongs of the 1918-1939 era. Why does your church not agree with you? Why did your spiritual fathers pray for the soul of the Marshall, yet you denigrate him?

Michael and his spiritual fathers follow the instruction of Scripture written by the Apostle Peter from Rome. Since your eccelsiastical authorities have submitted themselves to the office of his rival, the pontifex maximus Nero, I can see how you make the mistake.

I Peter 2: 13 Be ye subject therefore to every human creature for God’s sake: whether it be to the king as excelling, 14 Or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of the good. 15 For so is the will of God, that by doing well you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: 16 As free and not as making liberty a cloak for malice, but as the servants of God. 17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

And the instruction of St. Peter's colleague and equal in the Apostolate, St. Paul, to the Romans:

Romans 12;18 If it be possible, as much as is in you, have peace with all men. 19 Revenge not yourselves, my dearly beloved; but give place unto wrath, for it is written: Revenge is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 But if the enemy be hungry, give him to eat; if he thirst, give him to drink. For, doing this, thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head. 21 Be not overcome by evil: but overcome evil by good.

And God did repay the persecutors of His Church:


Of course, they also prayed for the Poles because not all of them are full of bigotry and arrogance.

Why did the Orthodox in the 1920's and 1930's feel to be Polish,
Why did the Polsudski regime tear down the Orthodox Cathedral. God repaid that as well

you can almost see Stalin's name still there.  Many Poles said that they deserved it for getting rid of the beautiful cathedral.


yet you promote the concept of Soviet Belarus?
Belarus originated so long ago at Polotsk, that no one knows when it started.
Quote
There is no exact date on record when the principality was formed, it was likely an evolutionary process. In 862 Polotsk was first mentioned in the Primary Chronicle as a town within the realm of the Novgorod Rus, alongside with Murom and Beloozero. Initially the Principality of Polotsk was governed by a local dynasty, and not by an appointed governor from Kiev. Local statehood was a result of local political evolution in the Early East Slavs' tribal union of Krivichi.
Quote
The Krivichi (Belarusian: Крывічы, Kryvičý; Russian: Кривичи, pronounced [krʲivʲiˈtɕi]) was one of the tribal unions of Early East Slavs between the 6th and the 12th centuries. They inhabited the upper reaches of the Volga, Dnieper, Western Dvina, areas south of the lower reaches of river Velikaya and parts of the Neman basin.

The Krivichs left many archaeological monuments, such as the remnants of agricultural settlements with traces of ironworks, jeweler's art, blacksmith's work and other handicrafts; long burial mounds of 6-9 centuries with cremated bodies; burial mounds of rich warriors with weapons; sets of distinctive jewelry (bracelet-like temporal rings and glass beads made out of stretched wire). By the end of the first millennium, the Krivichs had already had well-developed farming and cattle-breeding. Having settled around the Trade route from the Varangians to the Greeks, the Krivichs traded with the Varangians. Their chief tribal centres were Gnezdovo, Izborsk, and Polotsk.

The Krivichs as a tribe took part in Oleg's and Igor's military campaigns against the Byzantine Empire. They are also mentioned in De Administrando Imperio as Κριβιτζοί. In the 970s, the Principality of Polatsk, ruled by the Varangian chieftain Ragnvald (Rogvolod, in Lithuanian language "rag(a)nvald-ys" means the man who govern/rule/control or manipulate witches), was chronicled for the first time.

The Old East Slavic name, Polotesk, is derived from the Polota river, that flows into the Dvina nearby. The Vikings rendered that name as Palteskja, or Paltejsborg.

Polotsk is one of the most ancient cities of the Eastern Slavs. Primary Chronicle listed Polotsk at the 862 year. (as Полотескъ, /poloteskŭ/), together with Murom and Beloozero. However Polotsk was not yet in existence in the 9th century, and provided recorded was an invention of the compiler,[6] but archaeological expedition of the Institute of History of National Academy of Sciences of Belarus suggests that Polotsk already existed in the first half of the 9th century.[7] The Norse sagas describe the city as the most heavily fortified in all of Rus.

Between the 10th and 12th centuries, the Principality of Polotsk emerged as the dominant center of power in what is now Belarusian territory, with a lesser role played by the principality of Turaŭ to the south. It repeatedly asserted its sovereignty in relation to other centers of Kievan Rus, becoming a political capital, the episcopal see and the controller of vassal territories among Balts in the west. Its most powerful ruler was prince Vseslav Bryachislavich, who reigned from 1044 to 1101. A 12th-century inscription commissioned by Vseslav's son Boris may still be seen on a huge boulder installed near the St. Sophia Cathedral.

Quote
The Cathedral of Holy Wisdom in Polotsk (Belarusian: Полацкі Сафійскі сабор; Russian: Собор Святой Софии в Полоцке) was built by Prince Vseslav Briacheslavich (rr.1044-1101) between 1044 (it is first mentioned in the Voskresenskaia Chronicle under the year 1056) and 1066. It stands at the confluence of the Polota and Western Dvina Rivers on the eastern side of the city and is probably the oldest church in Belarus

The cathedral is, like the Saint Sophia Cathedral in Kiev and Saint Sophia Cathedral in Novgorod, named after the Holy Wisdom of God. After building his own cathedral, Vseslav, who was an izgoi prince, tried to seize the Kievan throne. Failing in that attempt, he raided the surrounding principalities; in 1067, he raided Novgorod the Great and looted the Cathedral of Holy Wisdom there, bringing a bell and other loot back to decorate his own Cathedral of Holy Wisdom.[1] The cathedral is mentioned in The Tale of Igor's Campaign, where it says that Vseslav would make nocturnal trips to Kiev as a werewolf and would hear the bells of Holy Wisdom at Polotsk as they rang for matins.[2]

The cathedral has been significantly rebuilt and heavily modified between the eleventh and eighteenth centuries. Indeed, only parts of the church date back to the time of Vseslav, although the names of the builders are inscribed in a stone at the base of the cathedral: David, Toma, Mikula, Kopes, Petr, and Vorish. The burial vaults of 16 Polotsk princes dating back to the eleventh century have been uncovered (indeed, Vseslav himself, said to have been a sorcerer as well as a werewolf, was buried in the cathedral he built).
(your friend and mentor Josaphat the Malevolent soiled the cathedra there)
Vladimir, not yet St. Vladimir, humbled the city, but then after his conversion gave it back its native dynasty, with his own imput.
Quote
The second time Polotsk was mentioned a full century later, in 980, when its ruler was a Varangian warlord, Ragnvald or Rogvolod. The chronicle reports that he arrived to Polotsk "from overseas", a routine phrase to designate Varangians. Rogvolod was an active player in the power struggle in Rus: in the late 10th century Polotsk's estimated population reached 6,000[citation needed] which allowed significant manpower for an army.

In 972, after the prince of Kiev, Sviatoslav I died, there was a power struggle between his two sons: prince of Novgorod Vladimir and prince of Kiev Yaropolk. Both had hoped for political and military support from Polotsk. In order to achieve this[citation needed], Vladimir proposed to Rogneda, Rogvolod's teenage[citation needed] daughter. She declined, and this made Polotsk an ally of Yaropolk. Vladimir waged war against Polotsk. According to colorful legends recorded in the Primary Chronicle, he took the city, raped Rogneda in front of her parents, then killed her entire family and burnt down the city. Rogneda was taken to Kiev to be Vladimir's wife. Thus the local dynasty was exterminated.

After Vladimir converted to Christianity in 988 and took Anna Porphyrogeneta as his wife, he had to divorce all his previous wives, including Rogneda. After that, she entered the convent and took the name Anastasia. Her son Izyaslau and herself were exiled back to the lands of Polotsk - first to Iziaslav, and later to Polotsk. Thus the principality was restored but with the most senior branch of the Rurik dynasty on the local throne. Since this time, however, the lands of the principality became Christian.

In 1001 Izyaslav was succeeded by his son, Bryachislav of Polotsk. Under his rule, Polotsk attempted to distance itself from Kiev. Tensions were exacerbated by the fact that, under the East Slavic house law, since Izyaslav predeceased his father and never reigned in Kiev, his descendants from the House of Polotsk forfeited their dynastic rights to the Kievan throne. In 1020 Bryachislav sacked Novgorod but then lost it to his uncle, Yaroslav the Wise, and had to give up some of his other possessions.

For two following centuries, the Principality of Polotsk was controlled by descendants of Izyaslau. All other lands of Kievan Rus were under control of princes who were descendants of Yaroslav the Wise.

The golden age of medieval Polotsk is associated with the rule of Bryachislav's son, Vseslav (1044-1101). He profited from the civil wars in Kiev in order to assert his own independence and run its affairs separately. During this time the principality became a centre of trade serving as a transit location between other lands of Kievan Rus and of Scandinavia. It also asserted its independent status balancing between Kiev, Novgorod and Varangians. Contemporary Norse sagas described the town as the most heavily fortified in all of Rus. Izyaslav's descendants most of the time ruled Principality of Polatsk independently of the Grand Prince of the Rus', only formally recognizing the power of the Rurikides. Since late 10th century, Polotsk was also successful in colonizing the lands of its western neighbours, the ancestors of today’s Latvians and Lithuanians. In early 13th century, Teutonic knights seized the power over the former from the hands of Polotsk, but the historical ties with the latter proved much stronger and lasted for 700 more years, although the leading role in this “marriage” soon shifted to the other side.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Polatsk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krivich
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polotsk
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Sophia_Cathedral_in_Polotsk
It did not shift totally: the original Christian rulers of Lithuania were batized Orthodox, the Grand Duchy got its own Orthodox Metropolitinate in 1315 in Navahrudak, with suffragans in Polotsk and Turau and what's this in the crypt of the cathdral of  Vilnius Cathedral, "the heart of Lithuania's Catholic spiritual life"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilnius_Cathedral

 and the state continued to use Old Belorussian.  (here the green lines showing the area in which Old Belarussian served in the chanceries and as the literary language)

at least until 1569. It lasted long enough for the 1897 Imperial Russian Census to show up as green on this map


Long before a single Soviet state.  So what you talking about?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 01:10:21 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2011, 02:33:05 PM »

I Peter 2: 13 Be ye subject therefore to every human creature for God’s sake: whether it be to the king as excelling, 14 Or to governors as sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of the good. 15 For so is the will of God, that by doing well you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men: 16 As free and not as making liberty a cloak for malice, but as the servants of God. 17 Honour all men. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honour the king.

And the instruction of St. Peter's colleague and equal in the Apostolate, St. Paul, to the Romans:

Romans 12;18 If it be possible, as much as is in you, have peace with all men. 19 Revenge not yourselves, my dearly beloved; but give place unto wrath, for it is written: Revenge is mine, I will repay, saith the Lord. 20 But if the enemy be hungry, give him to eat; if he thirst, give him to drink. For, doing this, thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head. 21 Be not overcome by evil: but overcome evil by good.

And God did repay the persecutors of His Church:


Of course, they also prayed for the Poles because not all of them are full of bigotry and arrogance.

Why did the Orthodox in the 1920's and 1930's feel to be Polish,
Why did the Polsudski regime tear down the Orthodox Cathedral. God repaid that as well

you can almost see Stalin's name still there.  Many Poles said that they deserved it for getting rid of the beautiful cathedral.


I try to stay out of threads and debates where SynLeszka is active because I feel that in some cases his postings can be quite needlessly provocative and inflammatory, as we can see above, and I find myself in disagreement with some of his arguments, again, like the above.  Oh, I do agree with what you posted on Belarus.  Now I am relatively new, and not that familiar with posting styles of members, but are you entertaining the idea that God perhaps punished the misdeeds of the interwar Polish government (in this context I will limit the misdeeds to how it relates to the Orthodox Church) with the Nazi invasion?  Forgive me if I am wrong, or misunderstanding the meaning, but to me at least, the tone feels more malicious.

 The Nevsky Cathedral was torn down between 1924-26 (I know at least it started in 1924, but not the exact end).  By this time Piłsudski was not active in politics, having resigned as Chief of General Staff in 1923.  That is not to say that further destruction of Orthodox Churches did not occur (it did), or that Piłsudski's legacy didn't continue to influence politics.  In my opinion at least he is not directly responsible for the initiation of the destruction of the Nevsky Cathedral, though his regime from 1926, if the Cathedral was destroyed after May 26th of that year, may have overseen the final demolition.

I know I have flaws, biases and pride among them, but are Poles somehow more bigoted and arrogant than Belarussians, Russians, or Ukrainians?  Perhaps that may be more of a subjective question though...
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« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2011, 03:33:08 PM »

trifon: A personal question (you don't have to answer): You are a Pole, aren't you?
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« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2011, 05:02:28 PM »

trifon: A personal question (you don't have to answer): You are a Pole, aren't you?

Michał Kalina: I am
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 05:07:59 PM by trifon » Logged
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« Reply #20 on: January 30, 2011, 06:06:22 PM »

Btw, it's funny to speculate that Finnish Church could be part of Polish Church if history had gone differently. We used to have Polish monarch in 16th Century. I wonder how Finnish Church would look like if that had continued...
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 06:07:32 PM by Alpo » Logged

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« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2011, 01:15:29 PM »

I try to stay out of threads and debates where SynLeszka is active because I feel that in some cases his postings can be quite needlessly provocative and inflammatory, as we can see above, and I find myself in disagreement with some of his arguments, again, like the above.  Oh, I do agree with what you posted on Belarus.  Now I am relatively new, and not that familiar with posting styles of members, but are you entertaining the idea that God perhaps punished the misdeeds of the interwar Polish government (in this context I will limit the misdeeds to how it relates to the Orthodox Church) with the Nazi invasion?  Forgive me if I am wrong, or misunderstanding the meaning, but to me at least, the tone feels more malicious.

The Nevsky Cathedral was torn down between 1924-26 (I know at least it started in 1924, but not the exact end).  By this time Piłsudski was not active in politics, having resigned as Chief of General Staff in 1923.  That is not to say that further destruction of Orthodox Churches did not occur (it did), or that Piłsudski's legacy didn't continue to influence politics.  In my opinion at least he is not directly responsible for the initiation of the destruction of the Nevsky Cathedral, though his regime from 1926, if the Cathedral was destroyed after May 26th of that year, may have overseen the final demolition.
The plans started during his first tenure on power, and he returned to power thereafter. He wasn't that far out.

I know I have flaws, biases and pride among them, but are Poles somehow more bigoted and arrogant than Belarussians, Russians, or Ukrainians?  Perhaps that may be more of a subjective question though...
Depends on the Russian or Ukrainian.  Or Pole (I've never come across a bigoted and arrogant Belarussian, so I can't speak to that).
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« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2011, 01:26:34 PM »

Btw, it's funny to speculate that Finnish Church could be part of Polish Church if history had gone differently. We used to have Polish monarch in 16th Century. I wonder how Finnish Church would look like if that had continued...
LOL. Actually, Poland had Finland's Swedish monarch.
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« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2011, 02:55:39 PM »

I try to stay out of threads and debates where SynLeszka is active because I feel that in some cases his postings can be quite needlessly provocative and inflammatory, as we can see above, and I find myself in disagreement with some of his arguments, again, like the above.  Oh, I do agree with what you posted on Belarus.  Now I am relatively new, and not that familiar with posting styles of members, but are you entertaining the idea that God perhaps punished the misdeeds of the interwar Polish government (in this context I will limit the misdeeds to how it relates to the Orthodox Church) with the Nazi invasion?  Forgive me if I am wrong, or misunderstanding the meaning, but to me at least, the tone feels more malicious.

The Nevsky Cathedral was torn down between 1924-26 (I know at least it started in 1924, but not the exact end).  By this time Piłsudski was not active in politics, having resigned as Chief of General Staff in 1923.  That is not to say that further destruction of Orthodox Churches did not occur (it did), or that Piłsudski's legacy didn't continue to influence politics.  In my opinion at least he is not directly responsible for the initiation of the destruction of the Nevsky Cathedral, though his regime from 1926, if the Cathedral was destroyed after May 26th of that year, may have overseen the final demolition.
The plans started during his first tenure on power, and he returned to power thereafter. He wasn't that far out.




I know I have flaws, biases and pride among them, but are Poles somehow more bigoted and arrogant than Belarussians, Russians, or Ukrainians?  Perhaps that may be more of a subjective question though...
Depends on the Russian or Ukrainian.  Or Pole (I've never come across a bigoted and arrogant Belarussian, so I can't speak to that).

Perhaps.  His first tenure was also marked my border wars which only added to the ethnic and religious tensions.  That this time in Poland was marked by jingoism, intolerance, and an entrenchment of nationalism can't be denied.  That the Nevsky Cathedral was seen by most Poles as a symbol of Russian domination and attempted Russification didn't help.  From what I have seen, the 'campaign' to destroy the Cathedral seems to have originated and gained hype through the media, rather than the gov't.  I would agree that Piłsudski could be morally responsible.


Indeed it does.  I have come across bigoted and arrogant Belarussians like I have for any of the aforementioned nationalities.
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« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2011, 02:47:33 PM »

LOL. Actually, Poland had Finland's Swedish monarch.

Well since he was a Catholic after his Polish mother and spent more time as a king of Poland than king of Sweden I'd say he was more a Pole than a Swede.

Too bad that he lost the battle of Sweden's crown. If that hadn't happened perhaps it could be possible that Finland had returned to Catholicism. And we could still have monarchy. Cool angel
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« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2011, 11:48:59 AM »

http://www.portal.arcana.pl/Muzeum-dom-pamieci-gruzinskich-oficerow-w-warszawie,651.html

Georgian ambassador inaugarates a museum commemorating Georgian officers who fought against the Soviet Union in 1918.
I have a hard time believing that the Orthodox Church would condemn those Georgian patriots for their battles against the Soviet vlasti.
Those officers fought against the Bolsheviks. Their chaplain is a saint. Yet somehow the fact that millions of Orthodox fought for the Polish Republic is not noticed because of your Soviet-phile morality.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2011, 11:55:03 AM by synLeszka » Logged
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« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2011, 11:53:55 AM »

This thread is a waste of bandwidth.
Because the stubborn persistence of Orthodoxy in Poland discomforts you?
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« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2011, 11:58:42 AM »

This thread is a waste of bandwidth.
Because the stubborn persistence of Orthodoxy in Poland discomforts you?
Hmm, the French say retourne a ses mouttons. Retourne a ses mouttons.
Persistence? The fact that I say that the Orthodox in Poland supported Piłsudski makes me an enemy of Orthodoxy?
It may seem funny to uneducated Soviet-philes but the Orthodox Church was one of the harbingers of the unity of Intermarium. The concept of Intermarium explains why the Marshall participated in memorial services for the king of Romania and Yugoslavia.
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« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2011, 04:30:11 PM »

This thread is a waste of bandwidth.
Because the stubborn persistence of Orthodoxy in Poland discomforts you?
Hmm, the French say retourne a ses mouttons. Retourne a ses mouttons.

The Anericans say "Stop beating around the bush, and spit it out!"

And it is on point: your szlachta arrogance towards the Orthodox demonstrates how the Second Polish Republic repeated the mistakes of the first, and got knoced off its high horse and dismembered as did the first.

Persistence? The fact that I say that the Orthodox in Poland supported Piłsudski makes me an enemy of Orthodoxy?
And what did it get them?

Quote
In the end, despite a few protests, it was demolished in 1924–1926, along with all but two Orthodox churches in Warsaw. Adding to the political and nation-wide character to the destruction of the largest Orthodox Cathedral in interwar Poland, the Warsaw magistrate issued public bonds to "give a chance to every Pole to take part in the action." The bonds were backed by the value of the materials recovered during demolition.[3]

Occasional attempts to save the cathedral continued even while demolition was underway. For example, in the summer of 1924 an Orthodox member of the Polish Senate, Vyacheslav Bogdanovich, gave a passionate speech in favour of preserving the cathedral.[6] However, overall such voices were few and far between. The proponents of its preservation in its original form were contemptuously called the "Cathedralists", thus implicitly accusing them of an underlying lack of patriotism.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Nevsky_Cathedral,_Warsaw#Demolition
Speaking of support for the Polish regime.

Quote
Prior to the disclosure of his involvement with the Communist-era secret police, Wielgus, like most archbishops of Warsaw, had been widely expected to be appointed a Cardinal after the death of his predecessor.

Wielgus intended to continue teaching Polish philosophy and medieval philosophy, at the faculty of philosophy of the Catholic University of Lublin.[citation needed]

In early 2007 his relevant awareness that several priests in his former diocese of Płock were sexually abusing minors came to light.[12]

In February 2007 it emerged that Archbishop Wielgus was preparing a court case to at least partially clear his name and was to be defended by "Marek Małecki, the same lawyer who was recently successful in getting a clearing verdict for Małgorzata Niezabitowska, press aide for Poland’s first government after 1989 round table compromise agreement with the communists. The verdict for Niezabitowska said that while she had been a registered spy for the communist, there is no evidence to prove that she was fully aware of the fact. Now the vetting court will examine the case of Archbishop Wielgus, whose guilt was pronounced as beyond doubt by two independent historical committees". [1]

On 12 February 2007 Stanisław Wielgus received a letter from Pope Benedict XVI, in which the Pope wrote: I hope you will be working again for the Church in Poland.[13]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanis%C5%82aw_Wielgus#Information_about_cooperation_with_the_Communist_Security_Service

It may seem funny to uneducated Soviet-philes but the Orthodox Church was one of the harbingers of the unity of Intermarium. The concept of Intermarium explains why the Marshall participated in memorial services for the king of Romania and Yugoslavia.
Międzymorze was no unity. The deluded dream of the szlachta and the nightmare of those they wished to enslave. Even the Marshall's fellow Lithuanians didn't sign on.
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« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2011, 04:40:31 PM »

http://www.portal.arcana.pl/Muzeum-dom-pamieci-gruzinskich-oficerow-w-warszawie,651.html

Georgian ambassador inaugarates a museum commemorating Georgian officers who fought against the Soviet Union in 1918.
I have a hard time believing that the Orthodox Church would condemn those Georgian patriots for their battles against the Soviet vlasti.
Those officers fought against the Bolsheviks. Their chaplain is a saint. Yet somehow the fact that millions of Orthodox fought for the Polish Republic is not noticed because of your Soviet-phile morality.
You talking to this szlachta?

Quote
Felix Edmundovich Dzerzhinsky (Polish: Feliks Dzierżyński [ˈfɛliks dʑerˈʐɨɲski], Russian: Феликс Эдмундович Дзержинский; 11 September [O.S. 30 August] 1877–July 20, 1926) was a Communist revolutionary, famous as the first director of the Bolshevik secret police, the Cheka, known later by many names during the history of the Soviet Union. The agency became notorious for torture and mass summary executions, performed especially during the Red Terror and the Russian Civil War.[1][2]

Social Democratic leader in Poland
Feliks Dzierżyński was born into a Polish szlachta (noble) family of the Samson coat of arms in the Dziarzhynava estate near Ivyanets and Rakaw in Western Belarus (in present-day Minsk Voblast), then part of the Russian Empire. He attended the Russian gymnasium at Vilnius. One of the older students at this gymnasium was his future archenemy Józef Piłsudski. Years later, as Marshal of the interwar Polish state, Piłsudski generously recalled that Dzierżyński "distinguished himself as a student with delicacy and modesty. He was rather tall, thin and demure, making the impression of an ascetic with the face of an icon. ... Tormented or not, this is an issue history will clarify; in any case this person did not know how to lie."[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felix_Dzerzhinsky
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« Reply #30 on: February 14, 2011, 08:55:24 PM »

LOL. Actually, Poland had Finland's Swedish monarch.

Well since he was a Catholic after his Polish mother and spent more time as a king of Poland than king of Sweden I'd say he was more a Pole than a Swede.

Too bad that he lost the battle of Sweden's crown. If that hadn't happened perhaps it could be possible that Finland had returned to Catholicism. And we could still have monarchy. Cool angel
There's always the Romanovs.

Btw, I just came across something about Sigismund's father, John III and his promulgation of Sveco(?)-Catholic liturgy and usages
http://www.brrp.org/proceedings/brrp2/holeton.pdf
comparing his "Common Liturgy of the Swedish Catholic and Orthodox Church" to the Utraquist liturgy, interesting as Utraquists in 1452 became the first Western church to enter into talks to be received into Orthodoxy as WRO.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2011, 09:01:18 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #31 on: February 15, 2011, 06:05:10 PM »

I was always under the assumption that Belorussians were Russified Lithuanians?  Didn't they use a Latin alphabet at one time?
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« Reply #32 on: February 15, 2011, 06:45:52 PM »

I was always under the assumption that Belorussians were Russified Lithuanians?  Didn't they use a Latin alphabet at one time?
Not really. It was born in the Glagolitic, and grew into the Cyrillic. The use of the Latin script
Quote
Lacinka was occasionally used in the Belarusian area mainly in the XIX century and first years of the XX century. Belarusian was officially written only in the Latin script between 1941 and 1944, in the German-occupied Belarusian territories.

In Medieval times (16th century), the first examples of the Latin renderings of the Belarusian (Cyrillic) text are known to occur, coming from the need to include the Old Belarusian quotes in the Polish and Latin texts. Those renderings were un-codified and, seemingly, were done by applying the Polish orthography to the Old Belarusian sounds.

In the 17th century, Belarusian Roman Catholics gradually increased their use of the Latin script, but still largely in parallel with the Cyrillic. Before the 17th century the Belarusian Roman Catholics had been using the Cyrillic script widely.

In the 18th century, the Latin script was used, in parallel with Cyrillic, in some literary works (e.g., dramatic), written in contemporary Belarusian.

In the 19th century, some Polish and Belarusian writers of Polish cultural background used the Latin script, exclusively or occasionally, in their works written in Belarusian, notably Czaczot, Bahrym, Dunin-Marcynkiewicz, Bahuszewicz, and Hurynowicz. The Revolutionary Democrat Kalinowski used the Latin script exclusively in his newspaper Peasants’ Truth (Belarusian: Мужыцкая праўда, in Latin script: Mużyckaja prauda; 6 issues in 1862–1863).

Such introduction of the Latin script for the rendering of the language with far-reaching Cyrillic tradition is sometimes explained by the unfamiliarity of the 19th century writers with the history of the Belarusian language or with the language itself, or by the impossibility of either acquiring or deploying the Cyrillic type at the publishing sites those writers had been using.

The custom of using the Latin script for Belarusian text gradually ceased in the common practice, although at the beginning of the 20th century there were still several examples of exclusive or non-exclusive use of the Latin script in Belarusian printing:

In the 1920s in the Belarusian SSR, e.g., at the Belarusian Academic Conference (1926), some suggestions were made to consider transition of the Belarusian grammar to the Latin script (e.g., Zhylunovich, for the sake of "making the Belarusian grammar more progressive"). However, these suggestions were rejected by the Belarusian linguists (e.g., Lastowski).

In the 1920s-1939, after the partition of the Belarus (1921), use of the Latin script, in evolved form, was re-introduced to Belarusian printing in Western Belarus, chiefly for political reasons. The proposed form of the Belarusian Latin alphabet and some grammar rules were introduced for the first time in the 5th (unofficial) edition of the Tarashkyevich’s grammar (Vil’nya, 1929).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarusian_Latin_alphabet

but then again, others unde similar circumstances also used the Arabic alphabet
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarusian_Arabic_alphabet
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« Reply #33 on: February 16, 2011, 12:02:12 AM »

All Belarusians are not Slavs though, but Balts who were drawn into Slavic culture over a period of centuries?  Is it true that, at one time there were more Belarusians then there were Russians?  Are most modern day Russians actually have mixed ancestory with Belarusian people and are not pure Slavs as Poles or Ukrainians wouldbe considered?
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« Reply #34 on: February 16, 2011, 05:08:53 AM »

All Belarusians are not Slavs though, but Balts who were drawn into Slavic culture over a period of centuries?

No.
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« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2011, 10:42:40 AM »

Is there such thing as a "pure" Slav?
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« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2011, 12:21:47 PM »

Is there such thing as a "pure" Slav?

Of course not, given the history of Europe and it periodic episodes of foreign conquest and assimilation. I think 'pure' Slav is more of a descriptive and even a 'romantic' notion, like being a 'true Englishman.' One could hardly argue that the British Isles were in any way 'pure' in terms of ethnic origin and cultural roots. The same could be said of any European culture and peoples.
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« Reply #37 on: February 23, 2011, 05:38:15 AM »

I was always under the assumption that Belorussians were Russified Lithuanians?  Didn't they use a Latin alphabet at one time?
The modern day country of Belarus was called the Grand Lithuanian Duchy from c.1300 to 1795. The country was ruled by Baltic Lithuanians families, until the death of the Jagiellonian dynasty. Until about 1560, the language of the court and courts of Grand Lithuania was Slavic old Belarussian, staroruski. What is the crux of modern Lithuania was called in the past Samogitia (also Żmudź, Żmojdz) while the title of Lithuania was used for Belarus. 
Belarussian can be written in Latin, some people even writes blogs in Latin script Belarussian.
Quote
All Belarusians are not Slavs though, but Balts who were drawn into Slavic culture over a period of centuries?  Is it true that, at one time there were more Belarusians then there were Russians?  Are most modern day Russians actually have mixed ancestory with Belarusian people and are not pure Slavs as Poles or Ukrainians wouldbe considered?
Some historians claim that Belarussians are Slavicised Balts. The problem is that the Balts did not have a written language until after 1400, therefore we have no records of what happened with them. I have read that the process of assimilation of the Balts into Belarussian Slavic society consummated in the XIIIth century. It is about 800 years since the Belarussian identity has been Slavic.
Belarus, more or less is the heart of Rus'.(Kyiv and Smolensk are near the borders of Belarus, they would be included in the old Belarussian literary standard) All of the East Slavs are descended from the Belarussians. Overpopulation in the areas of Belarus' caused Rusins to migrate south to the Ukraine and north-east to Moscow.

The only criterion for being a Slavic people is the tongue spoken. All people who speak a Slavic tongue are Slavs. Although a Slovak Lutheran has very little in common with a Russian Old-Believer and Bosnian Muslim but they are all Slavs.
Slavic culture assimilated numerous herder cultures into its ethnos in its earlier stages before 1200 AD. The process of acceptation Slavic culture varied from place to place. In some places, Aromanians, the antecedants of the Romanians, who were the majority people during the time of Cyril and Methodius in the Balkans, assimilated into Slavic society in Bosnia or Transcarpathian Rus', but Romania and Istria didn't.
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« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2011, 06:10:18 PM »

It has finally been properly translated.

http://tinyurl.com/6hb5ew7
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