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Author Topic: OO Priest Ordination and Denouncing Heretics  (Read 2736 times) Average Rating: 0
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« on: July 07, 2010, 07:38:21 PM »

I had once read somewhere that in the Armenian Church at least, during a priest's ordination, he must recite and denounce all of the heretics who have been declared anathema (I think there are 150?). Can anyone confirms this and is this a common practice in other churches?
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« Reply #1 on: July 07, 2010, 07:42:48 PM »

That's true.  It's a very long list, but I don't know if it is 150.  I think in recent years they've added the new heretics to it also, such as Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, etc.

I think other churches also have their priests renounce heretics during their ordinations.
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« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2010, 05:23:37 PM »

That's true.  It's a very long list, but I don't know if it is 150.  I think in recent years they've added the new heretics to it also, such as Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, etc.

I think other churches also have their priests renounce heretics during their ordinations.

Not that I disagree with Brigham Young and Joseph Smith being labled as heretics, but aren't those doctrines which originated well outside the Church?  I mean, are Calvin and Zwingli on the list as well?
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« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2010, 05:30:27 PM »

I based that statement on an ordination I went to a while back where they had added those heretics, as well as a few others, such as the guy who started the Jehovah's Witnesses.  I don't know if this was an isolated thing, or if it is done at all ordinations now.  I'm assuming that it was not just this one ordination.  

Even though the new heresies started outside the Church, they've done their damage to the community.  There are Armenians who convert to them and I guess the Church wanted to give the message that those heresies are not OK.
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« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2010, 05:42:27 PM »

...

I was under the impression that heresies are deviations that occur from direct opposition to the Church?
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« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2010, 05:44:09 PM »

Cool.  I totally agree with anathematizing them and their doctrines.  I was just wondering (if you remember) if guys like Calvin, Knox, Zwingli, Albert Benjamin Simpson, Charles Parham, William Seymour, and the like were on the list.  I'm sure that a few Armenian Orthodox have been led astray by their heresies as well.
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« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2010, 05:53:37 PM »

I'm not sure why, but I don't think any Protestants were on the list.  When you of it, there are so many thousands of denominations there, anathematizing every one of those founders would result in the ordination going on for hours and hours.   Smiley
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« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2010, 06:00:13 PM »

It's an interesting discussion, because if heresy is defined as deusestveritas says, then what term is appropriate for clearly heretical doctrines that originate outside of the Church?  Heterodox?  Is that it?  It doesn't seem as strong as "heresy", and yet the Oneness Pentecostal understanding of the Trinity is no less off base than Sabellianism.  Huh
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« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2010, 06:02:51 PM »

Definitely, but then the Oneness Pentecostal's heresy would probably be addressed with the anathema against Sabellius.
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« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2010, 06:10:44 PM »

Agreed!  But I don't think the early Church had to address anything like Calvin's doctrines, Seymour's, or Parham's, and those couldn't possibly be accepted by Orthodoxy.  So if not heretical, how are such doctrines defined?  I'd say they're anathema for sure.
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« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2010, 08:05:11 PM »

Agreed!  But I don't think the early Church had to address anything like Calvin's doctrines, Seymour's, or Parham's, and those couldn't possibly be accepted by Orthodoxy.  So if not heretical, how are such doctrines defined?  I'd say they're anathema for sure.

Antonious,

I don't know whether it is logical to say that they are heresy or not, but I do not think that that is necessary to recognize a teaching as anathema, meaning accursed and strange to the Church. These teachings are heterodox and anathema; I don't know how significant it is whether they are heresy or not.
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« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2010, 12:36:49 PM »

...

I was under the impression that heresies are deviations that occur from direct opposition to the Church?

If Joseph Smith gets his own anathema, so should Muhammad. They worked along similar lines, although the latter produced a slighty less bizzare religion.
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« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2010, 01:04:04 PM »

I guess that raises the question of how the line is drawn between heresy and a different religion.  Islam arguably started out as a Christian heresy, but I think now people realize it is an entirely different religion.  The average person on the street knows that a Christian who converts to Islam is changing religions.  A lot of people, however, think Mormonism, The Watchtower Society, etc. are just different kinds of Christianity.  

I had a conversation with someone in my own church a while back who contended that Mormons were Christian just like us, and that we should be working toward unity with them.  (This is someone who is into Myrna Nazzour and her unity message.)  I think this is why we find Churches doing more to refute Mormonism than Islam.  People know Islam is something entirely different.  Not everyone knows that about Mormonism, though.
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« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2010, 06:48:47 AM »

I guess that raises the question of how the line is drawn between heresy and a different religion.  Islam arguably started out as a Christian heresy, but I think now people realize it is an entirely different religion.  The average person on the street knows that a Christian who converts to Islam is changing religions.  A lot of people, however, think Mormonism, The Watchtower Society, etc. are just different kinds of Christianity.  

I had a conversation with someone in my own church a while back who contended that Mormons were Christian just like us, and that we should be working toward unity with them.  (This is someone who is into Myrna Nazzour and her unity message.)  I think this is why we find Churches doing more to refute Mormonism than Islam.  People know Islam is something entirely different.  Not everyone knows that about Mormonism, though.
what you mean Orthodox dont teach that God was once a man who attained an enlightenment thus the status of God and sent His seed into the universe to impregnate women in hopes of raising other humans to that same status and that we will one day be taken away to our home planet?

Yah Ive had many arguments about Mormons and JW not being Christians, unfortunately people dont seem to understand that just because someone professes the name of Christ that they may have a different face to the name. However on an interesting note for any who have seen Battlestar Galactica, It was written by 2 Mormons and have a lot of the theology worked into it... its a pretty good scifi and also can learn some basics of the Mormon belief system.
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« Reply #14 on: July 30, 2010, 06:58:13 AM »

That's true.  It's a very long list, but I don't know if it is 150.  I think in recent years they've added the new heretics to it also, such as Joseph Smith, Brigham Young, etc.

Is this list anywhere online? Does it include any EOs or RCs?
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« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2010, 11:33:06 AM »

I haven't seen it online, unfortunately.  I'm pretty sure it includes a couple people venerated by the EO's and RC's.  It would be nice if it were put online and translated into English.  It's an interesting and very long list.
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« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2010, 05:44:26 PM »

I was told by an Armenian priest that it includes the Tome of Leo.
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« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2010, 09:33:59 AM »

Does it/Did it ever include Severos of Antioch?
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« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2010, 10:58:42 AM »

I was told by an Armenian priest that it includes the Tome of Leo.

<coughing somewhere in the back, audience member exits>
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« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2010, 11:03:32 AM »

Does it/Did it ever include Severos of Antioch?

It does not include him now.  I don't know whether it included him back prior to the Council of Manzikert in the eighth century.
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« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2010, 07:20:09 PM »

I was told by an Armenian priest that it includes the Tome of Leo.

<coughing somewhere in the back, audience member exits>

 Huh
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« Reply #21 on: August 07, 2010, 04:25:10 AM »

I was told by an Armenian priest that it includes the Tome of Leo.

Yes, that's true. The text of the rite used today (from the edition and publication of 1807, Constantinople), demands to anathematize 159 heretics "by name" but mentions only 17 of them by name. The last is "the heretic Leo and his impure Tome which he wrote dividing the one into two". This much only.

The name of Severus of Antioch is not mentioned. But in the writings of the Armenian Fathers concerning the corruptibility-incorruptibility issues he is mentioned as a heretic. I'm glad he is not mentioned by name in today's rite of ordination of priests. To know what had been before, as the above-mentioned publication has many major redactions, compared with older texts, one needs to check earlier publications and the manuscripts. When I have time, I'll try to find out more about this. But even if his name is not mentioned in the rite, this is not enough at all for the members of the Armenian Church to call him a saint, as there is no decision whatever by the Armenian Church to remove the name of the heretic from Severus of Antioch. So any Armenian believer who reads the writings of the Armenian Church Fathers,  may come across the name of Severus of Antioch here and there as a heretic and never a saint. This happened in the past due to the efforts of the Syrians themselves who were divided into parties in those times of controversy and moved to Armenia and were welcomed by the Armenian Church. Once (5-6th centuries) mainly the Syrians were the "information centre" for the Armenians concerning what was happening in the Christian world outside Armenia, who what did, who was a heretic, who not, how "terrible" was the decision made by the Council of Chalcedon, etc etc. All such "hysterias" would enter Armenia through Syrian gates. Because the Church of Armenia was somewhat isolated at that time and wasn't part of all those struggles. And the theology of the Armenian Fathers of that period is very simple, not strong at all; we don't have such Fathers from those centuries (until the 7th century) who wrote mature Christological writings. Now, if the other Syrian party venerating Severus of Antioch was quicker and reached the Armenians earlier, we too would now call him a saint. But what happened, that happened.
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« Reply #22 on: August 07, 2010, 10:41:57 AM »

Vasntearn,

In Armenia, have they added anathemas for the new heresies, such as Mormonism, and the Jehovah's Witnesses?  As I indicated above, I went to a priest's ordination here in Los Angeles where they did that.  I'm wondering if that is something that comes from Etchmiadzin, or if it is something that the archbishop here just decided to do.  (The archbishop at the time was Vatche Srpazan.)
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« Reply #23 on: August 07, 2010, 11:42:14 AM »

Vasntearn,

In Armenia, have they added anathemas for the new heresies, such as Mormonism, and the Jehovah's Witnesses?  As I indicated above, I went to a priest's ordination here in Los Angeles where they did that.  I'm wondering if that is something that comes from Etchmiadzin, or if it is something that the archbishop here just decided to do.  (The archbishop at the time was Vatche Srpazan.)

I asked a bishop about that and he answered, no, nothing is added to the existing list of heretics. I think there is no need to do that since Jehova's witnesses are some sort of new Arians and the heresy of Arius is anathematized. I don't know which ancient heresy is like that of Mormons, frankly speaking, but all heresies concerning the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation of our Lord are anathematized, so there is no special need to anathematize the new heresies which repeat the errors of the old ones or are not even Christian.
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« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2011, 10:39:49 AM »

Sorry to resurrect such an old thread, but could someone perhaps link me to the text of these anathemas or maybe a Youtube video of an Armenian Priest's ordination where he denounces these heresies? I am soooo relieved Patr. Saint Severus of Antioch is not on that list!  Smiley
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« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2011, 10:50:23 AM »

I've tried finding something on line with the anathemas, but I can't find anything.  I also can't find a book with the ordination rite and anathemas in them.  If I ever do, I'll post a link in this thread.
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« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2011, 10:50:54 AM »

I've tried finding something on line with the anathemas, but I can't find anything.  I also can't find a book with the ordination rite and anathemas in them.  If I ever do, I'll post a link in this thread.
Thanks. Smiley
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« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2011, 11:14:29 AM »

I've tried finding something on line with the anathemas, but I can't find anything.  I also can't find a book with the ordination rite and anathemas in them.  If I ever do, I'll post a link in this thread.

Dear Salpy, I can give you links to the Armenian text of the ordination rite with anathemas. The first link is to the 1807 edition of Mashtots which is used today and the second to the earlier version of Mashtots published in 1714. In both of them the names of both Severus of Antioch and Julian of Halicarnasus are absent. So neither of them is anathematized during the ordination rite (or in any other rite) in the Armenian Church.

Go to page 649 and continue from there in the edition of 1714.
http://greenstone.flib.sci.am/gsdl/collect/armenian/Books/mashtoc1714_index.html

Go to page 265 and continue from there in the edition of 1807.
http://greenstone.flib.sci.am/gsdl/collect/armbook/books/mashtoc1807_index.html


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« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2011, 11:22:12 AM »

^Thanks VasnTearn. I don't know Armenian, but it's a start.  Smiley
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« Reply #29 on: September 11, 2011, 02:45:06 PM »

Thank you for this great resource, but I am seeming to have a little trouble finding the exact names. Which page do the exact names start on?

It's hard for me to read the second one because the text is too small/blurry.
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« Reply #30 on: September 11, 2011, 02:51:44 PM »

Which page do the exact names start on?

It's hard for me to read the second one because the text is too small/blurry.

I have already mentioned the pages. Pls see my previous post. There is a magnifier to help make the text more readable.
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« Reply #31 on: September 11, 2011, 09:48:30 PM »

Thank you for this great resource, but I am seeming to have a little trouble finding the exact names. Which page do the exact names start on?

It's hard for me to read the second one because the text is too small/blurry.
In the 1807 text, the renunciations start in the right column of 265.

The readings of renunciations, if I recall correctly, is read as part of the service the night before the actual ordination.
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« Reply #32 on: September 11, 2011, 11:16:11 PM »

Thank you for this great resource, but I am seeming to have a little trouble finding the exact names. Which page do the exact names start on?

It's hard for me to read the second one because the text is too small/blurry.
In the 1807 text, the renunciations start in the right column of 265.

The readings of renunciations, if I recall correctly, is read as part of the service the night before the actual ordination.

Ok!!! I see it now, thanks Aram! Cheesy
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« Reply #33 on: September 12, 2011, 12:01:03 AM »

Is Leo on the list?
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« Reply #34 on: September 12, 2011, 12:09:43 AM »

Yes.
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« Reply #35 on: September 12, 2011, 01:19:38 AM »

I'm having a hard time reading it, partly because the print is old and my eyes are bad, and also because of all the little abbreviations with the lines over them.  Those always bug me.  On top of that, my Classical Armenian is not that great.

I think the part about Pope Leo is on page 266, just a little more than half way down the first column.  Transliterated into English letters, there is a question that seems to go:  "Nuzoves uzLevon hertsvadzoghn yev uzbighdz doomarn yoor, zor tryats uzmin hergoos pazhanyal"

VasnTearn can correct my transliteration if it is off.  One problem I have with transliterating Classical Armenian is that I do it with the phonology of Modern Western Armenian, which is not that correct for Classical Armenian.

I can recognize a few other names, such as early on there is zArios Agheksantratzin (Arius), and then a bit after that Boghos Samosdatsin, who I think is Paul of Samosata.

It's interesting.  Hopefully some day there will be an official and complete translation into English.
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"I don't think I've ever eaten anything Armenian I didn't like.  I even drink my non-Armenian coffee out of a St Nersess Seminary coffee mug because it is better that way." --Mor Ephrem
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« Reply #36 on: October 17, 2011, 03:07:40 PM »

Is Patr. Flavian of Constantinople on that list, by any chance?
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« Reply #37 on: October 17, 2011, 09:26:15 PM »

I don't see him, but then I could be missing something.  Like I said, it's not that easy for me to read.
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"I don't think I've ever eaten anything Armenian I didn't like.  I even drink my non-Armenian coffee out of a St Nersess Seminary coffee mug because it is better that way." --Mor Ephrem
Severian
Glory be to the Most-Holy Trinity, both now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.
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« Reply #38 on: October 18, 2011, 09:50:20 PM »

I don't see him, but then I could be missing something.  Like I said, it's not that easy for me to read.
Well, if you guys didn't anathematize him I would not expect him to be on the list, I guess. Smiley

I know that we (Copts, Syrians) have anathematized him.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 09:50:54 PM by Severian » Logged

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« Reply #39 on: October 18, 2011, 09:57:18 PM »

The Armenians were not involved in the events leading up to Chalcedon, so I guess we would not be as detailed in our anathemas.  In the Anathemas there are Diodore, Theodore, Nestorius and Pope Leo and his Tome.  I guess the Armenians did not feel the need to go any further in dealing with that particular theological controversy.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2011, 10:06:12 PM by Salpy » Logged

"I don't think I've ever eaten anything Armenian I didn't like.  I even drink my non-Armenian coffee out of a St Nersess Seminary coffee mug because it is better that way." --Mor Ephrem
Tags: Ordination Armenian Church St. Severus Mormonism Pope Leo Tome of Leo NVM was here 
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