are muslims terrorists?!

[theodore]

the holy quran:al maeda:the table spread
82:....AND NEAREST AMONG THEM IN LOVE TO BELIEVERS WILT THOU FIND THOSE WHO SAY:WE ARE CHRISTIANS:BECAUSE AMONGST THESE ARE MEN DEVOTED TO LEARNING AND MEN WHO HAVE RENOUNCED THE WORLD,AND THEY ARE NOT ARROGANT.

And also from the quran: al maeda:the table spread
72:...They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

So according to the Quran Christians are going to hell.   All because Mohammed didn't understand the Christian concept of the Trinity as evidenced below:

al maeda:the table spread
116:...And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right.

[gregory2]

I highly recommend reading Serge Trifkovic's "The Sword of the Prophet" for a good, historical account of the development of Islam.  Mohommed was basically a hyper-sexual nut-case, and he and his followers have duped a huge percentage of the world's people.

Interestingly, I hear that some Islamic leaders in Iraq are using Islam as a tool to get the anti-American sentiment flowing.  The Islamic leaders aren't nearly as faithful or "religious" as the masses whom they are duping for political advantages.  I can't help but see parallels to former political leaders in traditionally Orthodox countries who used Orthodoxy as a tool for political means.......

[ByzantineSerb]

Sorry all,

   I got into this discussion late, so my comments may seem out of line with the current air of debate.

   I think terrorism is largely the product of multifarious suffering. The main catalysts, AFAIAK, are poverty, water shortages, and starvation. It's amazing how we have these internet discussions, think about them occasionally in our unique American existences, or we go to our respectable Apostolic Churches and yes, pray for these things to cease, etc. How many of us actually do anything about these things?

  Imagine if all Orthodox, all Catholics (add other here) would just take up more suffering for the good of their respected Churches, and for the people of God. Much can be found in St. Paul's writings about his personal suffering (aka penances) for the Church of God. He did it (as we should do) focally for the santification of himself in Christ, but I believe he also mentioned he suffered for the sake of others.

  Instead of fruitless debates, I thik it is time that we suffer and pray for the sake of the world.

     Pax Christi.

[theodore]

Sorry all,

   I got into this discussion late, so my comments may seem out of line with the current air of debate.

   I think terrorism is largely the product of multifarious suffering. The main catalysts, AFAIAK, are poverty, water shortages, and starvation.

Hmm, let's see.  The al-qaeda terrorists are generally rich or upper middle class, have plenty to drink, and except for those on the run from US troops in Afghanistan, are well fed.   They are driven by a fanatical and evil ideology.

[ExOrienteLux]

Guys, I think it's high time we wise up:  All of united's posts are basically trying to bait us into making asses of ourselves and/or try to get us to apostasize to Islam, among other things that I'm probably missing.
Maybe we should stop responding and/or the mods should try to take care of that kind of psuedo-trolling?  I know you've warned her (I think united is a she), but she doesn't seem to have gotten the message yet.
Just a suggestion, FWIW.

[united]

if you want me to leave this site,i'll do....
democracy is coming to the usa:) (leonard cohen)

[TomS]

We have a saying in the south: "Don't let the screen door hit you on your way out".

[united]

[Linus7]

I for one do not like seeing Islamic propaganda or verses from the Koran.

Islam is a great tragedy.

May God destroy it and deliver those in its clutches.

God loves Muslims (and all people), but He wants them to repent and come to Christ.

[Linus7]

Enough is enough.

Please, moderators, this guy has got to go.

[Brendan03]

"I am not worried about an invasion. I am worried about something like a fanatical Islamic government comes to power when The President of Pakistan is eventually assassinated and they then have access to nuclear weapons.

What do we do when that happens? Do we do a pre-emptive strike like the Israelis? I believe that we would have no CHOICE but to do so.

Then you will have WWIII.

It is only a matter of time until a scenario like the above occurs. be it nuclear or chemical -- it WILL happen."

I'm not so sure this will ever happen, Tom.  Pakistan is much like Turkey in one critical respect ... it is essentially controlled by the military, and the military acts as a prevention against the Islamic fundies taking over the government.  It's unlikely that the Pakistani mililtary would allow the fundies to take over the government because they are worried about what India would do if that were to happen.  So I actually see the Pakistani situtation as fairly suitable for our own interests ... a little nervewracking but fairly suitable.   A bigger risk is that some nuclear material is leaked out to the terrorists even while the Junta remains in power, and that is a serious risk we are running right now, but not only in Pakistan, there is also the risk that nuclear scientists and those with access to nuclear materials in various parts of the former Soviet union would provide material and/or assistance in exchange for cash, and as we know many of these terrorists, being as they are from Saudi Arabia, have quite a bit of cash.  So it's really more of a non-proliferation threat, and a threat on a broader basis, than specifically a Pakistani threat.

I think that the bigger issue is "what is our strategy in the Middle East"?  While I have some sympathy for the "let's just pull out of the Middle East and leave them alone" argument, I honestly don't think that this is feasible, even leaving aside our alliance with Israel for the moment.  If we were to completely pull out of the Middle East in terms of our political support for admittedly autocractic, undemocratic regimes, their days would be numbered, and we would have, in essence, a bunch of Irans, or a bunch of countries embroiled in a civil war a la Algeria, for some time to come.  The Bin Ladens of the world want us out so that they can trash the existing regimes and replace them with Islamic theocracies a la Iran.  Clearly this is in no-one's interest, and certainly not, given that the region is a huge source of oil for Western Europe, and even an important one for North America.  So I don't think the "pull out" option is really feasible, saves lives, promotes a positive future for the Middle East or anything else, and it is kind of self-indulgent because it basically amounts to the United States abdicating its responsibility to lead.  Given the unprecedented degree of power we have, not just military, but political, social, economic, cultural, we have a responsibility to lead.  But the question is: how, and what should be the policy.

Clearly it is our medium to long term goal to promote the development of stable, democractic-style regimes in the region.  This is the win/win scenario, better for us, better for the people who live in the region.  The question is how do we get from where we are today to where we want the region to be?  How, for example, do we transition countries in the region from true Kingdoms like Saudi or Oman or Jordan, to gradually more democratic regimes?  One key would seem to be to promote economic development on a broader scale so as to create a larger middle class.  There is plenty of wealth in the Middle East,as we know, but it is poorly distributed.  One way to approach this would be to pressure the regimes in the region to reorganize their economies in this way, over time,and there are carrots and sticks we could use to do that.  It is a tight-rope of, on the one hand, trying to prevent Saudi from becoming another Iran, while on the other, encouraging a transition from autocracy in economic and political terms, to some kind of Islamic-style democracy.  This is certainly a challenge, but it seems to me to be the central one for us and for the remainder of the world, in trying to help the Islamic world come up to par with everyone else.  Noone is really talking about this, however, and that is very troubling.  

Brendan

[TomS]

It's unlikely that the Pakistani mililtary would allow the fundies to take over the government because they are worried about what India would do if that were to happen.

That's a very good point Brendan.

[Schultz]

We have a saying in the south: "Don't let the screen door hit you on your way out".

I hope you're not suggesting that living in DC means you live "in the south", my friend!  ;-)

[Ebor]

Well, it *is* below the Mason-Dixon Line, Schultz.  <grin>
and you know who the "despot" is in the Maryland state song, don't you?

Ebor

[Schultz]

My girlfriend tries to tell me the same thing, that she's a "southern belle" because she was born in Baltimore!

Puh-leaze.  

Ever since the War of the Great Rebellion (you hush, Zollars, ya hear?!) Maryland and especially Washington, DC has been overrun by Yankees such as myself so much that the South now begins at the Potomac, and I'd even go so far to say the "real" South begins at the James.  Northern VA is almost as Yankee-fied as Maryland. :-P

[ania]

As a bonified Yankee transplant living south of the Potomac & north of the James, I fully agree with Shultz.

[Ebor]

Hey, I'm from Montana. yer all a buncha "easterners to me."   Just a physical fact that Mr. Mason and Mr. Dixon drew the line up north of here.

Actually I've heard D.C. described as a city with "Northern Charm and Southern Efficiency."  

"Southern Belles" in Baltimore?  That's a new one on me.  I can't see "Belles" calling people "Hon".    But its'a nice place. And I found out last week why it's called "Charm City"

Just kidding around with you Schultz.

Ebor

[TomS]

Actually I've heard D.C. described as a city with "Northern Charm and Southern Efficiency."  

Yep. I have heard it referred to as "a sleepy southern town" until World War I broke out and it started to grow.

I was born in DC at Georgetown.

[Schultz]

There's very little charm in Baltimore. :-P

[JoeZollars]

My girlfriend tries to tell me the same thing, that she's a "southern belle" because she was born in Baltimore!

Puh-leaze.  

Ever since the War of the Great Rebellion (you hush, Zollars, ya hear?!) Maryland and especially Washington, DC has been overrun by Yankees such as myself so much that the South now begins at the Potomac, and I'd even go so far to say the "real" South begins at the James.  Northern VA is almost as Yankee-fied as Maryland. :-P

[heritage rant]

Just because y'all have stolen our homeland........

Anyways your girlfriend could indeed be a southroner (yes that is the correct spelling according to pre-war southron orthonography).  Does she have ancestors who fought in the war?  Maryland still contains many a good southron family, even if y'all were too cowardly to fight with us in the Second War of Independence.

And about this whole War of Rebelion junk, how could we rebel against something that had always been a voluntary union of sovreign (key word sovreign) republics.  What the south did was excercise their constitutional right to keep the feds from taking our rights and liberties.  Of course since the War, nothing has been voluntary--particularly for us Southrons who have been at the brunt end of over 140 years of cultural genocide, being robbed of our history, culture, and the very things that make us Southrons.  The South has been enslaved for over 140 years, in parts, and it is likely to continue until enough of us rise up and drive them damn yankees back.

Deo Vindice! Remember the slaughter of Vicksburg!

Joe Zollars
[/heritage rant]

[JoeZollars]

As a bonified Yankee transplant living south of the Potomac & north of the James, I fully agree with Shultz.  

out with the squatters!

Joe Zollars

[Schultz]

Does she have ancestors who fought in the war?

Her ancestors were too busy laboring under Prussian rule near Gdansk to fight in the Civil War.

Mine, however, were newly arrived German immigrants living around Cumberland, MD who fought for...

...the Union!  

Remember the slaughter of Vicksburg!

Remember Andersonville!

[JoeZollars]

http://www.vaiden.net/tattprnt1.jpg

And yes that is a Roman Catholic Priest who wrote that poem, and others among which is my favorite poem "The Sword of Lee."  He was a chaplain in the Army of Northern VA and is considered by many of us Southrons to be a natoinal hero.

Joe Zollars

[Schultz]

That's a nice poem.  

Did I mention I found my old Confederate flag (I believe it was the "second" one, kind of like the Polish flag, but with a stars and bars in the left corner) while cleaning out some boxes I have stashed at my parents' house.  It was nice and folded respectfully, so don't get your knickers in a twist.  Would you happen to like to give it a good home?  It's just sitting, unfurled, in a box at home right now.

I have a portrait of Robert E. Lee hanging in my room as well.  Is okay for a Yank like me to have such things?

[JoeZollars]

It has the southron Cross in the upper left hand corner?  is it plain white everywhere else? or is there a red band down the right hand side?  If it is plain white, it is the Second Nation Flag of the Confederacy and is nicknamed "The Stainless Banner." It was only used for about a year and a half because it could easily be mistaken on a still day for a surrendor flag.  If it has a red band down the right hand side it is the Third National flag of the CSA and was nicknamed "Third National."  It was only used for about 6 months due to Appomatix, but remains the official flag of the confederacy today.

Joe Zollars

[Ebor]

Wondering if I should bring up that General Lee was an Episcopalian... and that Gen. Leonidas Polk was also an Episcopal Bishop...  I don't *think* that could count as 'proseletizing"

Ebor

[JoeZollars]

Jefferson Davis was also an Episcopalean and a personal friend of Pius IX.

General Thomas Jackson (AKA, albeit against his personal wishes, Stonewall) was a Presbyterian Minister.

Joe Zollars

[Jennifer]

Speaking as a SOUTHERNER, I'm not sad my 'culture' has gone away due to 'cultural genocide.'  That's the nature of the world.  The winners get to write the history books.  I'm about 1/8th Cherokee but don't consider myself 'culturally' Native American.  

Preserving culture is an admirable thing but it's not possible if you have intermarriage and I doubt any of us would argue against intermarriage since that borders on racism.  

Our culture is ascendent now but it will disappear and a thousand years from now, we'll be like the ancient Greeks.  They'll sift through bits of Tom Clancy novels and try to figure out what made us tick.  

Was what happened in Japan and Germany after WWII "cultural genocide?"  Probably at least with regards to Japan.  Japan had no history of democracy but we imposed our western democracy on them.  They lost and that's what happens when you lose.  It's not nice but war is hell, as they say.  What happened to Saxon culture?  My ancestors came from England.  Who knows whether they were saxon.  That culture is long gone because they lost.  

And practically speaking I'm glad that I'm an American first and a southerner second.  My grandfather fought for this country in WWII.  I'm a lot closer to him than my ever so far back grandfather who fought for the Confederacy.  And I also know the painful history associated with my ever so far back grandfather.  My grandmother grew up in a town that until the 1960's had a sign telling black people that they weren't allowed to spend the night in town.  My parents went to segregated schools.  And our "southern way of life" was used to justify segregation so it will be tainted in my mind.  As it will be in the mind of most southerners.  

[Schultz]

It's the Third National, that's it.  I got the direction of the red and white mixed up.  As I said in my PM, if you want it, it's yours.

I'll be careful not to send that glorious Pennsylvania flag I found in the same box to you, too.

[Brendan03]

"Was what happened in Japan and Germany after WWII "cultural genocide?"  Probably at least with regards to Japan.  Japan had no history of democracy but we imposed our western democracy on them."

Well, yes and no.  Cultural genocide it wasn't ... Japan is still very, well, Japanese to say the least, and the democracy that they ended up adopting, even if it was initially compelled, ended up being a very Japanese kind of democracy, one which reflected Japanese cultural norms as much as Western ones.

I once read somewhere that one way to understand Japan is the three As .. adopt, adapt, adept.  Adopt something from outside Japan (whether calligraphy, Buddhism, or baseball), adapt it to Japanese culture (creating Kanji, Zen or besu-boru) and in the process become rather adept at it.   Yes the Japanese use Chinese characters, but they've Japanified them, as they have with Buddhism, adapting them to Japanese needs, proclivities and culture.  The same can be said for the democratic institutions that Japan was forced to adopt after WWII.  Japan is extremely good at this process of cultural borrowing, and it really began long before WWII, and I think this helped what happened in the aftermath of WWII be much less of a cultural genocide than it otherwise could have been.  

But Japan is a fairly unique case in this regard, I think, because it has a long, long history of successful cultural borrowing.

Brendan

[JoeZollars]

And can one say the same thing of Southron culture today? does our government represent our cultural heritage and interests?  absolutely not.  We have been dumped by the democrat party for our general dislike of big government and dumped by the Republican party for the same thing.  There is nothing left in our culture of what it once was.

And yes Jennifer, I am against southrons marrying yankees.

Joe Zollars

[Ebor]

A long history of cultural "borrowing" but also a long history of maintaining a core of uniformity as it were.  I have been collecting books and materials on Japan for sometime and have some interesting things, in particular, from the Occupation after WWII (both from American and Japanese writers).  There were political movements for democracy in Japan before WWII.  While it is common for Japan to be presented as a uniform culture, that is not the actual case.  But that is not the subject for this thread I suppose.  If anyone is interested, perhaps we can start another.

Ebor

[Jennifer]

And can one say the same thing of Southron culture today? does our government represent our cultural heritage and interests?  absolutely not.  We have been dumped by the democrat party for our general dislike of big government and dumped by the Republican party for the same thing.  There is nothing left in our culture of what it once was.

But what was our culture?  I think there's a tendency to ascribe things that people find attractive to southern culture.  For example, "dislike of big government."  Was there "dislike of big government" in the southern colonies?  The southern and northern colonies were obviously different but given that the northern colonies were settled by religious dissenters, one might argue that the north has more of a cultural suspicion of "big government."  

What are our "cultural heritage and interests?"  Rural interests are not fundamentally southern.  Religious fundamentalism can't even be said to be southern culture because the northern religious dissenters were more 'anti-establishment' religion-wise than then southern Episcopals.  Have you read Knox's Enthusiasm?  The puritans in MA and the Quakers in PA are more truly the fathers of fundamentalism.  

In the south, we have a different musical tradition because we've been influenced by the music of African slaves but that's not "our" culture in a strict sense.  

Certainly the democratic party is not our culture.  

And it's not correct to say that "we've" been dumped by the Republican party given that the Republican party knows they have to win to south to stay in the white house.  

I would argue that everything you would identify as part of southern culture can be found in the north and the west so is more properly seen as american culture.  I would also argue that everything you'd identify as southern culture can't truly be found in a 'pure' sense in the south.    

And yes Jennifer, I am against southrons marrying yankees.

Joe Zollars

That's absurd.  There are no true southerners left.

[Jennifer]

A long history of cultural "borrowing" but also a long history of maintaining a core of uniformity as it were.  I have been collecting books and materials on Japan for sometime and have some interesting things, in particular, from the Occupation after WWII (both from American and Japanese writers).  There were political movements for democracy in Japan before WWII.  While it is common for Japan to be presented as a uniform culture, that is not the actual case.  But that is not the subject for this thread I suppose.  If anyone is interested, perhaps we can start another.

Ebor

I'd like to know more about Japan.  This issue of 'culture' is interesting.  I believe very strongly there's no such thing as 'pure' culture so I get suspicious when I hear others complain about 'cultural genocide.'  I also think that many of us in the west want to 'protect' other cultures in an unatural way.  One could (IMHO) that 'cultural genocide' is natural.  Groups are always in conflict and one group will always win and another will lose.  Protecting a culture from that natural 'evolution' is inherently unnatural.

[Bogoliubtsy]

  That's absurd.  There are no true southerners left.  

Are you saying that Zollars is not a Southerner? Thems fightin' words!!  

[Nacho]

And about this whole War of Rebelion junk, how could we rebel against something that had always been a voluntary union of sovreign (key word sovreign) republics.  What the south did was excercise their constitutional right to keep the feds from taking our rights and liberties.  Of course since the War, nothing has been voluntary--particularly for us Southrons who have been at the brunt end of over 140 years of cultural genocide, being robbed of our history, culture, and the very things that make us Southrons.  The South has been enslaved for over 140 years, in parts, and it is likely to continue until enough of us rise up and drive them damn yankees back.

This is very true. Growing up & learning about this conflict & the way it's portrayed in the schools, I always thought the rebels were the bad guys until I actually took some interest in it myself & read what it was all really about. My family came from Missourri & I had relatives who fought for the Missourri Militia. I thought they had one of the best looking battle flags around. It's blue with a big white christian cross in the middle. Some of the bloodiest battles took place in south eastern missourri during the time of the war. They didn't have large conflicts, but it was a lot of smaller conflicts. I think I read somewhere that the most conflicts took place in this region, but I could be wrong. It was pretty bad because you had parts of the state divided along yankee/confederate lines.

And yes that is a Roman Catholic Priest who wrote that poem, and others among which is my favorite poem "The Sword of Lee."  He was a chaplain in the Army of Northern VA and is considered by many of us Southrons to be a natoinal hero.

From what I have read, Rome was on the side of the South during the conflict.

I have a portrait of Robert E. Lee hanging in my room as well.  Is okay for a Yank like me to have such things?

I used to have two of Lee hanging on my wall. One of them showed him reading the bible to a young girl with the caption, "The Christian General."

And can one say the same thing of Southron culture today? does our government represent our cultural heritage and interests?  absolutely not.  We have been dumped by the democrat party for our general dislike of big government and dumped by the Republican party for the same thing.  There is nothing left in our culture of what it once was.

Where are the Dixiecrats to go???

[JoeZollars]

Don't be absurd Peter.  I AM a Southroner and therefore could never fight a lady.

Joe Zollars

[JoeZollars]

Jennifer, I said we have been dumped by the Republican party because it no longer represents or cares to represent our culture.

Nacho, that sounds like a picture I would like.  do you know where I can buy copies of it?  

Joe Zollars

PS.  Nacho I also had relatives that fought with the Bushwackers, including some that rode with MO's most famous of Roman Catholics--Quantrail.

Joe Zollars

[Jennifer]

Are you saying that Zollars is not a Southerner? Thems fightin' words!!  

First, he lives in Kansas.  Second, there's been so much migration and intermarriage that there are few (if any) people with a truly southern heritage left in the south.  

As for Joe's comments about "not fighting a lady" because he's "southern," that proves my point about ascribing attractive traits to "southern" heritage.  Chivalry is not "southern."  To make that suggestion would to be argue that it didn't exist in the north, which it did.  

[Jennifer]

Jennifer, I said we have been dumped by the Republican party because it no longer represents or cares to represent our culture.

Yes, but what you claim is "our" culture isn't really "our" culture.  Small government isn't uniquely southern.  In fact one could argue that the Jim Crow laws indicate greater support for the power of government over social mores.  

You still have not identified a uniquely southern trait that is somehow not represented by the republicans.  

[JoeZollars]

English isn't uniquely american.  thus is it part of american Cultuer? of course it is.  a culture is a mixture of various elements that may or may not exist in any other cultures.

As for my living in Kansas, yes I do at hte moment.  I was born in missouri (but just barely over the border from my beloved nation of Arkansas) but spent all my life up until a couple years ago in Arkansas.  Even the particular part of Kansas I was in was controlled by teh CSA during the War.

Joe Zollars

[Jennifer]

That doesn't matter because even your "beloved nation of Arkansas" (I'm sorry but as someone who has driven through Ark a few times, it cracks me up to see "beloved nation of Arkansas.") has been "corrupted" by "nothernism."  

Yes it's true that english isn't uniquely american but is part of our american culture but our english is different.  

You talk about southern culture but can't name what makes southern culture unique.  In order for it to make the south unique it would have be manifested differently in the south.  

Furthermore there was never a singular southern culture.  The planters were different from the crackers.  The englishman were different from the scots.  Even the english weren't the same depending on where they were from in England.

[Keble]

When I took a friend to Antiedam, they indicated to me the Maryland memorial and said that it commemorated eight units. And when I asked, "How many on each side?" they said "5 union and 3 confederate". On the state house grounds we have Roger B. Taney on one side and Thurgood Marshall on the other. My father is from N. Carolina and my mother is from Ohio. Therefore I remain serenely above it all as I sit to the West of the M-D line.

But I still don't have any use for the claims of Islam.

[JoeZollars]

Jennifer, the specific elements of southron culture are not unique (at least in many cases) but southron culture overall is unique in how the various elements are mixed together.  For more information on this, see the LoS Official Website.  Otherwise I think we should drop the discussion now as it is a highjacking of this thread and not apropriate for this forum in general.

Joe Zollars

[Ebor]

I'd like to know more about Japan.  This issue of 'culture' is interesting.  I believe very strongly there's no such thing as 'pure' culture so I get suspicious when I hear others complain about 'cultural genocide.'  I also think that many of us in the west want to 'protect' other cultures in an unatural way.  One could (IMHO) that 'cultural genocide' is natural.  Groups are always in conflict and one group will always win and another will lose.  Protecting a culture from that natural 'evolution' is inherently unnatural.  

I will ask the admins if it is alright to start a thread about Japan, in Other Board, maybe, if you like.  If you get me started, I probably will go deep into the history and geography and how they shape the culture (unless someone smacks me with a 2x4) as well as the religious systems there (Shinto is native, but Buddhism was worked in).  And how there are different social groups that aren't usually talked about as much: the Ainu in the north, people of Korean extraction that though they have been in Japan for generations are catagorized as "Korean" and the Burakumin, "Untouchables" of a kind.  Japan is not a monolith.

Ebor

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