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Author Topic: are muslims terrorists?!  (Read 43749 times) Average Rating: 0
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united
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« on: May 02, 2004, 09:50:50 AM »

A bomb goes off in a marketplace in Jerusalem. A suicide bomber launches himself into a bus full of women and children in Tel Aviv. Foreign tourists get massacred at a holiday resort in Luxor, Egypt. Villages upon villages get annihilated in Algeria. The list of events worldwide which have come to symbolise the 'Islamic terror' are endless. From the times in the 70's and 80's when Pan Am and TWA aeroplanes would be highjacked, to the mid 80's in war torn Lebanon where Americans and Europeans would be held as hostages for years; all such incidents have come to be identified with the religion of Islam. Such incidents from past and present have undoubtedly affected Muslims worldwide and more so in the West. Any Muslim, who wants to practice his/her religion and expresses the pious desire to live under the banner of Islam, is labelled a fundamentalist or extremist. Any Muslim man who walks down a busy street in London or Paris (and Paris moreso) with a beard and a scarf on his head, is looked upon as being a terrorist who's probably got an AK47 stashed somewhere on his person. Muslim women who are veiled can't go anywhere in the Western world without being taunted as being oppressed or being mad (for covering up). However, are such beliefs and opinions about Islam really justified?

Exploding the myth

One of the many short comings which has arisen in the West, is judging Islam by the conduct of a minority of its people. By doing this, segments of Western society have deliberately played off the desperate actions of many Muslims, and have given it the name of Islam. Such behaviour is clearly not objective and seeks to distort the reality of Islam. For if such a thing was done - judge a religion by the conduct of its people - then we too could say that all Christianity is about is child molesting and homosexuality [1] whilst Hinduism was all about looting and breaking up mosques [2]. Generalising in such a manner is not seen as being objective, yet we find that the Western world is foremost in propagating this outlook on Islam. So what is the reality of Islam? How does one dispel the myths which have been created and spread so viciously? The only way to examine Islam is to simply examine its belief system. Look at its sources, the Qur'an and Sunna, and see what they have to say. This is the way to find the truth about what Islam says about terror, terrorism and terrorists. One who is sincerely searching for the truth, will do it no other way. The very name Islam comes from the Arabic root word 'salama' which means peace. Islam is a religion which is based upon achieving peace through the submission to the will of Allah. Thus, by this very simple linguistic definition, one can ascertain as to what the nature of this religion is. If such a religion is based on the notion of peace, then how is it that so many acts done by its adherents are contrary to peace? The answer is simple. Such actions, if not sanctioned by the religion, have no place with it. They are not Islamic and should not be thought of as Islamic.

Jihad

The word jihad sends shivers down the spines of many Westerners. They readily equate this term with violence and oppression. However, it must be said that the meaning of jihad, as a 'holy war', is something which is totally foreign and not from Islam. If anything, such a description belongs more so to Christianity and its adherents. It was terms like this which were used to justify the slaughter and pillage of towns and cities during the crusades by the Christians. By simply looking into the sources of Islam, one is able to know that the true meaning of jihad is to strive/make effort in the way of Allah. Thus striving in the way of Allah can be both peaceful and physical. The Prophet Muhammed (saws) said:

"The best jihad is (by) the one who strives against his own self for Allah, The Mighty and Majestic" [3]

In the Qur'an, Allah also says:

"So obey not the disbelievers, but make a great jihad (effort) against them (by preaching) with it (the Qur'an)"
(Surah Al-Furqan 25:52)

By controlling and fighting against ones desires, the Muslims can then also physically exert themselves in the path of Allah. It is this physical or combative jihad which receives so much criticism. Because of the sheer ignorance of this type of jihad Islam is regarded as terror, and Muslims are regarded as terrorists. However, the very purpose of this physical jihad is to raise the word of Allah uppermost. By doing this, it liberates and emancipates all those who are crying out for freedom all over the world. If the likes of the pacifists of this world had their way, then the world would indeed be full of anarchy and mischief. The combative jihad seeks to correct this as Allah says in the Qur'an:

"And if Allah did not check one set of people by means of another, the Earth would be full of mischief. But Allah is full of bounty to the worlds"
(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:251)

Such would be the corruption on this Earth if there had never been a combative jihad that Allah says:

"For had it not been that Allah checks one set of people by means of another, monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is mentioned much, would surely have been pulled down. Indeed Allah will help those who help His (cause). Truly Allah is All strong, All mighty"
(Surah Al-Hajj 22:40)

This combative jihad being both defensive and offensive, is something which is commanded by Allah upon the Muslims. Through this command the oppressed and weak are rescued from the tyranny of the world:

"And what is the matter with you that you do not fight in the cause of Allah and for those weak, ill treated and oppressed among men, women and children whose only cry is; 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors and raise for us from you one who will protect and raise for us from you one who will help"
(Surah An-Nisa 4:75)

Anyone who knows the early history of Islam, will know that all those nations and empires which came under the fold of Islam were indeed previously oppressed. When the companions of the Prophet Muhammed (saws) went out for the offensive jihad against the Egyptians, the Persians and the Romans, we find that the people did not resist against them at all. Rather, they accepted Islam on such a scale, that it is inconceivable that the jihad of Islam could be anything other then a liberation for these people; a liberation from centuries of tyranny. In fact, with the Byzantine Egyptians and the people of Spain, the Muslims were even beckoned to come and liberate these lands from the oppression of their kings. This is the glorious track record of the Muslim jihad. Compare this with the brutal track record of warfare in the Western world over the centuries. From the crusades against the Muslims to the days of colonial warfare, the Western world has killed, destroyed and plundered everything which has come in its way. Even today this merciless killing goes on by the Western nations. While claiming to be about world peace and security, Western nations are ready to bomb innocent civilians at the drop of a hat. The classic example of this is the recent bombings of Sudan and Afghanistan. Whilst claiming that Sudan and Afghanistan were havens for Islamic terrorists, the bombings of these two nations could not have come at a better time for the American president Bill Clinton. The destruction of innocent lives which were a result of these bombings clearly seem to have been an attempt by Clinton to avert attention away from his sexual misdemeanours; [4] something which he so often gets caught up in. Without doubt this was the reason for such terror from the American military upon innocent people. This is the same American military which claims to enter the worlds trouble spots under the guise of being peace keepers. But

"GǪ when it is said to them; 'Make not mischief on the Earth', they say; 'We are only peace makers'. Indeed they are the ones who make mischief, but they perceive it not"
(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:11-12)

The hypocrisy of the West is indeed astounding.

By looking at the rules and regulations of this combative jihad it will be clear to any sincere person that this is indeed the religion of truth. When fighting an unjust enemy, no matter how unjust they are, it is forbidden by Islam that their retreating forces are mutilated, tortured or slaughtered. The treacherous violation of treaties and carrying out assassinations after a cease fire, are also prohibited. Allah says in the Qur'an:


"And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you. But do not transgress the limits. Truly Allah loves not the transgressors"
(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:190)

Not transgressing the limits means not to kill women and children, for the Messenger of Allah (saws) "forbade the killing of women and children" [5]. Not transgressing the limits means that the elderly, the sick, monks, worshippers and hired labourers are not attacked. Not transgressing the limits means not killing animals wantonly, burning crops and vegetation, polluting waters and destroying homes, monasteries, churches and synagogues:

"Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion, nor drove you out of your homes. Indeed, Allah loves those who deal with equity"
(Surah Al-Mumtahinah 60:Cool

After reading such passages from the Qur'an and knowing about what Islam commands and prohibits in jihad, the rules of warfare are given a new meaning; a meaning of justice. How sad it is then, that whilst Islam is condemned for striking terror into the hearts of the people, the likes of the Serbs, the Indian army in Kashmir and the Israeli soldiers in Palestine are left untarnished for the atrocities they have committed in the name of warfare.

So what about suicide bombing, is this too a part of jihad in Allah's path? From what has already been stated above, it can be deduced that this is not from the religion. However, unfortunately many Muslims have taken suicide bombing as being a virtuous act by which one receives reward. This could not be further from the truth. The Prophet (saws) said: "Those who go to extremes are destroyed" [6]. Suicide bombing is undoubtedly an extremity which has reached the ranks of the Muslims. In the rules of warfare, we find no sanction for such an act from the behaviour and words of the Prophet Muhammed (saws) and his companions. Unfortunately, today (some misguided) Muslims believe that such acts are paving the way for an Islamic revival and a return to the rule of Islam's glorious law. However, we fail to bear in mind that the Prophet (saws) said:

"Do not be delighted by the action of anyone, until you see how he ends up" [7]

So, for example what is the end of a suicide bomber in Palestine?, a leg here, an arm there. Massive retaliation by the Israeli's in the West Bank and Gaza. More Muslims killed and persecuted. How can we be delighted with such an end? What really hammers the final nail in the coffin of this act, is that it is suicide; something which is clearly forbidden in Islam. The Messenger of Allah (saws) said:

"He who kills himself with anything, Allah will torment him with that in the fire of Hell" [8]

Some are under the misconception that by killing oneself for an Islamic cause, one commits an act which deserves Paradise. Once when a man killed himself, the Prophet (saws) said: "He is a dweller of the Fire". When the people were surprised at this, the Prophet (saws) said:

"A person performs the deeds which to the people appears to be the deeds befitting the dweller of Paradise, but he is in fact one of the dwellers of the Fire" [9]

The taking of ones life which Allah has given as a trust to the human, is a great sin. Likewise the taking of other lives (which is so often the case with suicide bombing) is also forbidden, as human life is indeed precious:

"...If anyone killed a person not in retaliation for murder or to spread mischief in the land, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind. And (likewise) if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole of mankind"
(Surah Al-Maaida 5:32)

Thus, all other types of extremities such as hostage taking, hijacking and planting bombs in public places, are clearly forbidden in Islam.

The Media

By going through the teachings of Islam, it is clear that such a religion has only come to benefit mankind - not to destroy it. So why is there so much hatred for this noble religion in the West? The answer is simple, the media. It is the Jewish influenced media of the West which has portrayed Islam to be something that it is not. During the 70's and 80's when the PLO (Palestine Liberation Organisation) were carrying out daring highjacks on the worlds airways, the media in the West portrayed it as being Islamic. When the Shi'ite suicide bombers of the 80's were causing so much havoc in the Lebanon and in the Gulf region, the media in the West portrayed it as a part of Islam. However, it is known by the heads of the media that the likes of the PLO were not an Islamic organisation, and that according to Islam, Shi'ites are outside the fold of Islam [10]. Yet such facts are never portrayed by a media which seeks to cover the truth of this religion. A number of years ago, when the Oklahoma City bomb went off, a headline in one of the newspapers, 'Today' [11], summed up this attitude. With a picture of a fire fighter holding a dead child in his arms, the headline read: "In The Name of Islam" Time has of course proven that this bigoted assumption was incorrect, as Timothy McVeigh, a right wing radical now faces the death penalty for the crime [12]. Likewise the bombs which went off in the Paris metro in 1995, were also blamed on Muslim fanatics. It has now emerged that the Algerian secret service who having routinely bribed many European journalists and MPs, were actually behind it. The desire to throw a veil over Islam is immense by these people:

"They intend to put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah will complete His light even though the disbelievers hate (it)"
(Surah As-Saff 61:Cool

Whilst trying to destroy Islam through this instrument of the media, the Jews clearly try to portray an image of themselves as being the oppressed people. Every year, we are reminded as to how many Jews perished under the Nazis in World War II. We are made to feel sorry for these same people who have gone on to commit so many crimes upon the Palestinian people. Some may say that this is a racist and biased viewpoint. But we say; If this media was not run and orchestrated by the Jews and was truly neutral, then why are Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir, two former Israeli prime ministers, not held aloft as being terrorists? Anyone who knows about the history of the Palestinian occupation will tell you that these two men were members of the Stern Gang and Irgun, two notorious Jewish terror groups who killed many innocent people [13]. If this media was truly impartial, then why does it not tell about the extent of the Israeli bombardment and illegal occupation of Southern Lebanon and its people? [14] And if this media really had nothing against the religion of Allah, then why does it not inform the people that every day hundreds are entering the religion of Islam? Such things will never be highlighted in the Western media, simply because to do so would be against their very interests.

With such immense pressure against it, it is indeed a blessing from Allah that Islam goes from strength to strength. It continues to grow faster then any other religion in the Western world, conquering the hearts and minds of thousands. All this should not even surprise us though, for Allah has promised us that this religion will prevail:

"It is He who has sent His Messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, so that He may make it victorious over all other religions, even though the disbelievers detest it"
(Surah As-Saff 61:9)

It is a must that humanity comes towards the religion of Islam. Without it, we will continue to slip down the road of inequity and darkness. With it we can establish a society of justice and peace. Religion of terror? ... no. The way forward? ... yes.

"There is no compulsion in religion. The right path has indeed become distinct from the wrong. So whoever rejects false worship and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All Hearing, All Knowing"
(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:256)

 

Footnotes

[1] By using the many cases of child abuse and homosexuality by priests, Such a generalisation about Christianity could be made
[2] By using the incident of the destruction of the Babri mosque in Ayodya, India in December 1992 by Hindu zealots, such generalisations could be made about Hinduism
[3] Authentic - Reported by At-Tabaranee
[4] Years of sexual liaison with a White House aide, Monica Lewinski, has been proved against Mr Clinton. Since this time, a number of other women have also claimed that they have had affairs with the president. And this is the same man who propagates family values and to whom millions look up to!
[5] Reported by Bukhari - Eng. Trans, Vol.4, p. 160, No. 258
[6] Authentic - Reported by Ahmed
[7] Authentic - Reported by Ahmed
[8] Reported by Muslim - Eng. Trans, Vol. 1, p.62, No.203
[9] Reported by Muslim - Eng. Trans, Vol. 1, p.64, No.206
[10] The beliefs which are contained in the books of the Shi'ites places them outside of the fold of Islam generally. However, upon the individual Shi'ite, the proofs need to be established before one can say that he or she is a disbeliever
[11] This newspaper no longer exists
[12] It is strange indeed that whilst the Western media criticises Islamic law for being barbaric and harsh, not a word is said about the fact that McVeigh too will be executed just as someone would in an Islamic state
[13] These two groups killed Arabs, Jews and the British. They are accredited with the massacre at the village of Deir Yassin, in which many innocent people were butchered
[14] Despite the fact that the UN has even made a resolution against Israel for this illegal occupation, no 'democratic peace loving nation' (like the USA!) has bothered to implement it.
UNITED FOR PEACE AND JUSTICE "FIRAS"
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« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2004, 02:42:42 PM »

There is a common thread that runs through all of the terrorist groups throughout the world. Whether they are highly organized or in small hit-and-run groups there is one common thread that link them all.  Terrorism from the 9/11 WTC catastrophy to the Philippines, from the Sudan to Thailand, from Chechnya to Spain, from Bosnia to Indonesia, from Israel to Chad, from Yemen to Beirut, there is one common thread.  I for one, will not be fool enough to think that this is but a small minority when the majority refuse to condemn these heinous acts of terrorism. The folks who have to live with these persecutions daily are also not fooled.  Now what could be that common thread?

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« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2004, 09:15:36 PM »

There is a common thread that runs through all of the terrorist groups throughout the world. Whether they are highly organized or in small hit-and-run groups there is one common thread that link them all.  Terrorism from the 9/11 WTC catastrophy to the Philippines, from the Sudan to Thailand, from Chechnya to Spain, from Bosnia to Indonesia, from Israel to Chad, from Yemen to Beirut, there is one common thread.  I for one, will not be fool enough to think that this is but a small minority when the majority refuse to condemn these heinous acts of terrorism. The folks who have to live with these persecutions daily are also not fooled.  Now what could be that common thread?

JoeS  

I agree, JoeS.

And we're going to have to face facts sooner or later.

The Europeans have already let themselves be overrun by those people.

We can't count on their help. Even the Brits may chicken out eventually.

We better stop letting Muslims into this country.
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« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2004, 12:48:43 AM »

Quote
I agree, JoeS.
And we're going to have to face facts sooner or later.
The Europeans have already let themselves be overrun by those people.
We can't count on their help. Even the Brits may chicken out eventually.
We better stop letting Muslims into this country.

I agree. The europeans have already let them overun parts of thier native lands thanks to thier ultra tolerance & liberalism. Their own liberalism is killing them along with thier culture of death mentality. They have no children & have a decreasing native population, while the muslims have atleast 7 children if not more. They will within 50 years be the majority in Europe & those stinkin' leftist over there have nobody to blame but themselves. Synagauges are already burning in France & they do nothing about it because they don't want to "offend" the muslims. We have to prevent this from happening over here, but it may be hard do to a contingent of leftist holdovers from the 60's who are bent on bringing our system down by letting 3rd world people over here that contribute nothing & use our welfare system at a rate of 7 times more than the average american does. Very sad indeed.... :-";"xx
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« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2004, 01:31:52 AM »

Just a question. Who are the people who are killing Serbs, burning churches and monasteries in Serbia, and uninating on the ruins?  Ethnic Albanians.  And what religion are ethnic Albanians, by and large?
Let's just look at the facts.
And I just realized that this post sounds really polemical.  Sorry.
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« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2004, 02:40:24 AM »

Quote
Just a question. Who are the people who are killing Serbs, burning churches and monasteries in Serbia, and uninating on the ruins?  Ethnic Albanians.  And what religion are ethnic Albanians, by and large?
Let's just look at the facts.
And I just realized that this post sounds really polemical.  Sorry.

Hey....but it's still the religion of peace Wink Wink I mean come on, only 19 of the 21 conflicts around the world are caused by the aggression of these practitioners of the religion of peace.

We also know the UN is doing a great job in Serbia running away & hiding from the pratitioners of the religion of peace while they are burning homes & churches.
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« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2004, 07:46:48 AM »

World War III is on its way. I give it 20 years unless the West starts to deal with this issue.

Where is our Churchill? The lone voice crying in the wilderness.

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« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2004, 08:05:53 AM »

World War III is on its way. I give it 20 years unless the West starts to deal with this issue.

Where is our Churchill? The lone voice crying in the wilderness.



Perhaps war with the Muzzies is that from which the Man of Sin will "rescue" us.

The Jews will hail him as their political "messiah" come at last, and the world will agree.

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« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2004, 10:39:28 AM »

United wrote:
Muslim women who are veiled can't go anywhere in the Western world without being taunted as being oppressed or being mad (for covering up). However, are such beliefs and opinions about Islam really justified?

United, just outta curiosity, where do you live?  

I live in the Washington DC metro area, supposedly the central command for suppressing Islam.  I've never seen a muslim taunted (I know after 9/11 there were instances where people were taunted, abused, or had their property destroyed or damaged for even looking Arab, but that was a few years ago now) in public or private.  There are many women who wear headcoverings, long robes, etc.  No one here seeks to hurt them.  The only time I've heard of any muslim woman around here being abused was by her own husband (they lived in our building, & he was beating her & yelling at her so loudly police were called by neighbors, she was taken away on a streacher).  The building I live in is about 20% Muslim.  They live peacefully next to everyone else.  As far as covering up, no one blinks an eye when during the summer the Muslim girls swim in the pool completely clothed.  
Daily on the metro-train I see a few men reading the Koran, beards & everything on their way to work.  No one tries to pick fights with them, or calls them names or anything.  Granted since the explosions in Spain, even I've had some thoughts about "well, gotta be careful on the trains" but nobody abuses the Muslims here.  Honestly, I think you should open your own eyes & see how Americans in America treat Muslims.
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« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2004, 11:34:43 AM »

My interactions with Muslims have always been very positive.  In fact, I was engaged to a Muslim girl once when I was in India.  Most Muslims are just like most Christians (ie. laid back) but when you throw in poverty, dictatorial governments (both Muslim, secular, and occupying, you are bound to get some crazy people riled up who will actually blow stuff up.  If America were poor we'd have 10 times as many Tim McVeighs.

Continuing my rant, my Muslim ex-fiancee and her family--as well as every other Muslim family I met in India--thought their Arab bretheren that they saw on TV blowing stuff up were completely nuts.  Are there Indian Muslim terrorists? Yes, but they are funded by al-Qaida, and again, are drawn from the poor areas, and are mostly fueled by the India-Pakistan thing.

When I see people label Muslims as all the same I just don't know what to say because Muslims can be as different as the Pope, Tim LaHaye, and Jim Jones.

Granted, some of you are reacting to another one of united's outrageous posts.

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« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2004, 12:49:01 PM »

We have to prevent this from happening over here, but it may be hard do to a contingent of leftist holdovers from the 60's who are bent on bringing our system down by letting 3rd world people over here that contribute nothing & use our welfare system at a rate of 7 times more than the average american does. Very sad indeed.... :-

My family and practically my entire diocese is composed of immigrants from a "third world" country.  I've not heard of one case of our people using "your" welfare system (I suppose I could call it mine, since I'm a natural born US citizen, but I wouldn't want to impose).  I've not heard of one case of our people contributing nothing to "your" country, either.  Whether our people start their own small businesses (the stereotypical convenience store comes immediately to mind, the one where--surprise, surprise--many black and white American welfare recipients/abusers buy their bread and/or booze), or work in the medical, legal, computer, or other fields, making lots of money, achieving some semblance of the American dream, only to move into a neighbourhood populated primarily by American Jews who try their best to railroad them out even though they are financial equals (this last bit is the true story of my uncle's boss, both of them are PT's and Indian Christians), Indians living in the US, and their children who by and large follow in their footsteps, contribute positively, I think, to this country, and I imagine that they are not the only third world riffraff to do so.  

The quote above is racist, IMO.  And "very sad indeed".  

But I do have a question for Linus and Nacho.  You both agree that America needs to keep Muslims out of here.  How do you think that can be done?
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« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2004, 12:57:02 PM »

Indeed, Phil, that was an incredibly racist thing to say.  I have lived in overwhelmingly immigrant neighborhoods (usually South American but sometimes Asian) and I have never, ever seen an abuse of welfare by such immigrants.  If anything, they work longer and harder than the average white American living in the same neighborhood.

I challenge Nacho to furnish us with government statistics to back up this racist assertion of his.
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« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2004, 01:02:36 PM »

Nacho,

You're on thin ice this time buddy.  If you are going to make statements about other races you need to back it up with facts. My best friends are Hispanics (all either legal immigrants or born here) and they work harder than many Whites or Blacks.

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« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2004, 01:20:07 PM »

I find it interesting that United mostly posts length pieces that she (assuming that United is a woman) did not write and that set up strawmen of Christians. If they are to cause an epiphany of the readers here and have us all stampeded to convert to Islam, I fear that they are not succeeding.  

Quote
"Muslim women who are veiled can't go anywhere in the Western world without being taunted as being oppressed or being mad (for covering up).

Within a few miles of my house are at least 3 mosques (one Ammidaya (sp?) even) with one of them right next door to an Ukrainian Orthodox Church.  So I will frequently see women wearing a hijab.  Not once have I taunted such women, nor have I witnessed it in the grocery store or the pharmacy or among the parents at my children's school.  Yes, there are persons who are jerks, or self-important busy-bodies or worse. That happens in many places.  But such blanket statements that would show Muslims as perenial victims do not reflect reality.

Ebor
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« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2004, 01:24:52 PM »

Well, I see Ania beat me to it... Next time I'll read all of a thread before posting maybe.

Nacho, that was a sweeping blanket statment in it's own right, and amazingly offensive.  What data do you have for this opinion of yours?  Not commentators essays, but facts.

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« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2004, 01:40:52 PM »

Most Muslims are just like most Christians (ie. laid back) but when you throw in poverty, dictatorial governments (both Muslim, secular, and occupying, you are bound to get some crazy people riled up who will actually blow stuff up.

I don't disagree with you Anastasios.

However, you also have to remember that the same was said of the German people before WWII. But that did NOT stop a fanatic like Hitler from coming to power and implementing his program to restore the "dignity" of the German people. At least that is what the masses WANTED to believe -- even though his true plan was evident from his earlier writings and speaches.

I see the SAME thing happening in Islam today. How many times do we see hateful writings from Islamic Clerics that are dismissed or excused because they are seen as Moderates! How many more times do we have to bear the silence of "Western Clerics" who refuse to speak out against the hate being taught in the Arab world?

It only takes a few charismatic fanatics to loose the devil among the masses.

"Those who have ears, let him hear."

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« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2004, 02:23:37 PM »

Quote
I don't disagree with you Anastasios.

However, you also have to remember that the same was said of the German people before WWII. But that did NOT stop a fanatic like Hitler from coming to power and implementing his program to restore the "dignity" of the German people. At least that is what the masses WANTED to believe -- even though his true plan was evident from his earlier writings and speaches.

I see the SAME thing happening in Islam today. How many times do we see hateful writings from Islamic Clerics that are dismissed or excused because they are seen as Moderates! How many more times do we have to bear the silence of "Western Clerics" who refuse to speak out against the hate being taught in the Arab world?

It only takes a few charismatic fanatics to loose the devil among the masses.

al-Islam: they may hate me (or perhaps most don't!) but I respect them.

People who live in little countries that lack the armed forces needed to invade and occupy my home aren't a threat to me such that I want to invade and occupy theirs. BTW, Iraq had no such plans.

If what used to be called the First World does the right thing and stops meddling in the Middle East, including stopping support of the Zionist occupiers of Palestine, the so-called devils will have no motive to be 'loosed' by 'charismatic fanatics'.

If it had done the right thing years ago, 9/11 never would have happened.

This situation is not a repeat of the battles of Constantinople, Lepanto or Vienna.

If I'm wrong and you're right and it is or becomes that, my blog is for peace but not pacifist - pro-just war for defence. Any of those countries foolish enough to try to invade would be destroyed, end of story.
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« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2004, 02:35:41 PM »

I am not worried about an invasion. I am worried about something like a fanatical Islamic government comes to power when The President of Pakistan is eventually assassinated and they then have access to nuclear weapons.

What do we do when that happens? Do we do a pre-emptive strike like the Israelis? I believe that we would have no CHOICE but to do so.

Then you will have WWIII.

It is only a matter of time until a scenario like the above occurs. be it nuclear or chemical -- it WILL happen.

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« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2004, 02:40:59 PM »

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I am not worried about an invasion. I am worried about something like a fanatical Islamic government comes to power when The President of Pakistan is eventually assassinated and they then have access to nuclear weapons.

What do we do when that happens? Do we do a pre-emptive strike like the Israelis? I believe that we would have no CHOICE but to do so.

Then you will have WWIII.

It is only a matter of time until a scenario like the above occurs. be it nuclear or chemical -- it WILL happen.

You sound like you WANT war and would enjoy killing these people.

Pakistan doesn't want to nuke the US, the UK or the Continent - it would be terrible if they decided to destroy India but that's not our war (sorry, Phil, but this isn't India and we're not the world's policeman).

I think Muslims - and Christians - want Palestine back, not to destroy it.

Just like Red China's got nukes (IIRC) but won't attack Taiwan. It could destroy it, but doesn't want to, but not invade and rule it.
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« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2004, 02:45:31 PM »

You sound like you WANT war and would enjoy killing these people.

That's a stupid statement, Serge. Sorry, but I don't know of any other way to put it. I have a son who is 20 years old. You think I want war?

The US made a HUGE mistake in the 1950's by allowing our enemy to develop a nuclear capability. We should never have let that happen.
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« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2004, 02:46:47 PM »

Can one be a member of the Nazi party and not be Nazi ? Can someone believe in the destruction of the others as muslims believe and work hard to achieve and not be a terrorist ? This is simply written in the Quran, and all muslims believe in it.  

I don;t think it will be WW III, though. One of the most prominant islamic leaders in the 60's , from Egypt, called Sayyed Kutb, has his ideas spreading like fire among the muslims. It is rather interesting, and evil.

When asked about why the West (the infidels) are by far more superior than the islamic World, he replied : Allah has gave the West so much so we can conquer them and take it without SWEAT. Because the islamic World is an example of poverty, and muslims are an example of retardation, the West cannot be invaded by Force any more as in the 8th and 17th centuries.

The invasion will be through abusing their liberal and tolerant system, go there, make babies, and be a majority. As such, muslims will use democracy to cancel democracy, and the riches and women (what muslims think of) will be their spoils.

That is what I believe will happen, and it will be the end of any Western civilization. Islam and civilization do not come together.
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« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2004, 02:48:13 PM »

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That's a stupid statement, Serge. Sorry, but I don't know of any other way to put it. I have a son who is 20 years old. You think I want war?

Well, I think the pro-war position is stupid. I'm for peace exactly so men like your son don't get killed for no good reason.

Quote
The US made a HUGE mistake in the 1950's by allowing our enemy to develop a nuclear capability. We should never have let that happen.

IIRC that was Julius and Ethel Rosenberg's fault in the late 1940s (the USSR exploded its first nuke in 1949), not the US.

Stavro,

OK, I get it - you hate Islam or at least what you think it is.

I may hate the Mormons (BTW, Muslims are the Mormons of Orthodoxy - an apostate knockoff) or the even more annoying Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, but don't want to stage a military attack on their homes because of it!

And as anastasios, who has spent lots of time in India and has met many different Muslim people, says, they aren't all out to kill you! In fact probably most aren't.
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« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2004, 02:53:33 PM »

Well, I think the pro-war position is stupid. I'm for peace exactly so men like your son don't get killed for no good reason.

Yeah. You mean like this guy?

http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/eurodocs/uk/peace.html

IIRC that was Julius and Ethel Rosenberg's fault in the late 1940s (the USSR exploded its first nuke in 1949), not the US.

I am not sure what you are saying here.

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« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2004, 02:57:48 PM »

Not a parallel - Britain re: Germany and the US re: Germany were completely different issues.

Hitler decided to attack Britain if he couldn't have it as an ally.

The Germans had no plans to invade the US and they knew it was physically impossible to try.

So it was with Iraq.

Quote
I am not sure what you are saying here.


Two things: that what you refer to happened in the 1940s, not the ’50s, and more importantly the US didn't decide to let the Communists get the Bomb. That was the doing of two Americans who were spies for the Soviets.
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« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2004, 03:17:53 PM »


All I know is that in Russia atop many of the Church Cupolas there are Crosses above a horizontal crescent.  This relates to the explusion of the Tartars and represents the triumpth of Christianity over Islam.  

For the last three years I have been looking for such a Cross to proudly wear around my neck.  But cannot find one.  If anyone one knows of a place where one can be obtained let me know.

With what is going on in the world today regarding these so called 'peace loving' Muslim's I will wear such a Cross with pride.

I have even thought of comissioning a jeweler  to make one for me.

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« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2004, 03:30:18 PM »

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All I know is that in Russia atop many of the Church Cupolas there are Crosses above a horizontal crescent.  This relates to the explusion of the Tartars and represents the triumpth of Christianity over Islam.

Actual invaders and occupiers. Not like today. I think there's still a now-peaceful Ta(r)tar minority in Russia and the eastern Ukraine today.
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« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2004, 03:37:25 PM »

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The quote above is racist, IMO.  And "very sad indeed".  

Where did I mention anyone's race??? I could care less about someone's race. If I did rant about someone's race, then that would be "very sad indeed." I don't really care where they come from, I care about americans being able to access our welfare system first before others do that already have a priviledge in coming over here.

Quote
Indeed, Phil, that was an incredibly racist thing to say.  I have lived in overwhelmingly immigrant neighborhoods (usually South American but sometimes Asian) and I have never, ever seen an abuse of welfare by such immigrants.  If anything, they work longer and harder than the average white American living in the same neighborhood.
You're on thin ice this time buddy.  If you are going to make statements about other races you need to back it up with facts. My best friends are Hispanics (all either legal immigrants or born here) and they work harder than many Whites or Blacks.


OK, again this has nothing to do with race. I don't care where they are coming from. What I care about are americans having access to the welfare system first. Most other coutries that are well off put a burden of proof on anyone that wants to move into thier county that they are going to be productive citizens right off the bat & without government assistance. I have seen & heard too many stories from Russian & Romanian friends of mine on how they get away with abuses with our system. I don't think that's really fair. I should have clarified also in my post between "illegal" immigrants & legal immigrants that do have good intentions. I live in  California, & we have a huge problem with illegal immigration that is costing us Billions of dollars. They are also causing many of our hospitals to be closed down closer to the border & our prison system is overfilling with criminal illegal immigrants. I don't think that's fair to all of us who have to pay for that with  hard earned tax dollars.  
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« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2004, 03:40:01 PM »

Of course without illegal immigrants our economy would slow down tremendously and of course most illegal immigrants pay taxes they will never see and social security benefits they will never receive due to fake id's.

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« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2004, 03:44:44 PM »

If western democracies wind up with populations having a Muslim majority, will new legislation and judicial rulings reflect this new majority?  IMHO, it will.   I would find it difficult to believe otherwise.  I can only go on what I see in countries presently having Muslims in leadership positions and I cant point to a single one having anything closely resembling our democratic republic.

JoeS :'(

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« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2004, 04:12:57 PM »

I find it interesting that United mostly posts length pieces that she (assuming that United is a woman) did not write and that set up strawmen of Christians.

Yes, I agree, Ebor it is interesting that United has chosen to post more of this propaganda complete with the usual sweeping generalizations. This one looks like it was written in the aftermath of 9/11 when feelings were running particularly high and to state that all Muslim women are targeted for abuse is just hysterical. What United needs to address is the reality that Islamic terrorism exists and that a religious justification is being sought for it.

Did you see the furore that the former Archbishop of Canterbury, George Carey, caused by his remarks on Islam recently? He had the audacity to say that the welcome given to Muslims in the west, complete with freedom of worship and the right to build mosques, should be reciprocated to Christians in Islamic countries. There's a summary of his address here.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/03/26/1079939849867.html?from=storyrhs
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« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2004, 04:15:40 PM »

Quote
I have seen & heard too many stories from Russian & Romanian friends of mine on how they get away with abuses with our system.

And I can take a look in neighborhood and see at least 10 white Americans whose families have been here for generations doing the same thing.  It has nothing to do with where someone came from.

And I'd like to point out that the largest recipients of welfare in this country are big business who use every single loophole they can to get away with not paying their taxes and abusing every privilege the government offers, whether they (the corporations) need them or not.
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« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2004, 04:38:38 PM »

Yes, I agree, Ebor it is interesting that United has chosen to post more of this propaganda complete with the usual sweeping generalizations. This one looks like it was written in the aftermath of 9/11 when feelings were running particularly high and to state that all Muslim women are targeted for abuse is just hysterical. What United needs to address is the reality that Islamic terrorism exists and that a religious justification is being sought for it.

Did you see the furore that the former Archbishop of Canterbury, George Carey, caused by his remarks on Islam recently? He had the audacity to say that the welcome given to Muslims in the west, complete with freedom of worship and the right to build mosques, should be reciprocated to Christians in Islamic countries. There's a summary of his address here.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/03/26/1079939849867.html?from=storyrhs  

Yes, I saw that and another in which John Rhys-Davies, the actor, remarked on supporting Western Culture and not letting it be taken over by Islam (Any culture where any granddaughter of his would be beaten for wearing nail varnish is not one in which he would want them to live).  Both were roundly upbraided for it.  

Last week I was following links and came to a blog written by a Muslim gentleman living in Saudi Arabia.  He is very much against the Muttawa (the "religious police") and thought that Abp. Carey (actually, being retired I think he's Lord Carey now) "hit the nail on the head".  Right now the blog is not being up dated as things are unsettled in S.A. and if he were to be found out, the authorities would not be....indifferent, let's say.
I'll send you the URL if you want.  It's an amazing site and dedicated to the 15 girls who died in the Makkah school fire because the Muttawa wouldn't let them out without their abaya and veil.  He doesn't mince words about some of the evil treatment of women and other things in S.A.

Ebor
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« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2004, 04:59:10 PM »

well sisiters and brothers, i read your replies and as ania said there is nothing about muslims or...problems with muslims in washington dc the capital of "democracy"(peace on you socrates)
but in your reply...there is some kind of racism.....that i respect anyway:)
well i hope that the USA and the high standard of living countries will remember that there is a continent called africa:children are dying and starving 24 hours a day(chatting online about them 24 hours a day:ironic)
well i remember in 1997 when mother thereza died(peace on her)
everybody was busy LISTENING TO THE HOMOSEXUAL and the great artist elton john singing a good bye song to lady diana in a CHURCH:)
guys don't forget the children all around the world
UNITED FOR PEACE AND JUSTICE"LEBANON"
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« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2004, 05:05:36 PM »

And I can take a look in neighborhood and see at least 10 white Americans whose families have been here for generations doing the same thing.  It has nothing to do with where someone came from.

And I'd like to point out that the largest recipients of welfare in this country are big business who use every single loophole they can to get away with not paying their taxes and abusing every privilege the government offers, whether they (the corporations) need them or not.

I'd say the largest recipients of welfare are the middle class.  People like us, from the middle class, rant and rave about *them* receiving welfare when we are 'welfare' recipients.  What is social security or Medicare if not welfare?  What about stafford loans?  What about the FHA and the subsidizing of mortgage interest?
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« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2004, 05:09:57 PM »

Social security: we pay into it.
Medicare: yes, welfare
Stafford loans: i'm payin' my loans back, so that ain't welfare
FHA and interest: welfare.
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« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2004, 05:12:28 PM »

We can argue over who gets the largest chunk, I suppose, but that doesn't change the fact that Nacho's assertion that the illegal immigrant receives 7 times more than the average American is dead wrong.
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« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2004, 05:12:55 PM »

the holy quran:al maeda:the table spread
82:....AND NEAREST AMONG THEM IN LOVE TO BELIEVERS WILT THOU FIND THOSE WHO SAY:WE ARE CHRISTIANS:BECAUSE AMONGST THESE ARE MEN DEVOTED TO LEARNING AND MEN WHO HAVE RENOUNCED THE WORLD,AND THEY ARE NOT ARROGANT.
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« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2004, 05:33:07 PM »

Social security: we pay into it.
Medicare: yes, welfare
Stafford loans: i'm payin' my loans back, so that ain't welfare
FHA and interest: welfare.

Social security is welfare because what you're paying right now is subsidizing someone receiving social security.  

Stafford loans are also welfare because they're subsidized.  You don't pay interest on the unsubsidized portion while in school.  As for the unsubsidized portion, if the federal government didn't back up the loan, most students wouldn't be able to borrow.  

You have to take what Nacho says with a grain of salt.  He hears that stuff on those talk radio programs he listens to.  They're obsessed with illegal immigrants and "welfare queens."  He just doesn't know better.  

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« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2004, 05:34:08 PM »

Quote
Of course without illegal immigrants our economy would slow down tremendously and of course most illegal immigrants pay taxes they will never see and social security benefits they will never receive due to fake id's.

Yes, & this is the crux of the problem. I have a feeling that if we paid $15.00 an hour for those jobs that americans don't want to do we will still could save alot of money in the long run. We could also have people that are on welfare right now do some of these jobs that no one wants to do. I would make some exceptions obviously for those that are disabled or have poor physical health. I do wish that all these people that are coming over illegally would just wait a little longer and do it the right way. I know many of these people are hard workers, but there are also many that come over and get in trouble. I have heard that the percentage of illegal immigrants in the California jail system is around 20% of the total population. That's costing us some major money & government resources to pay for all that.

Quote
And I'd like to point out that the largest recipients of welfare in this country are big business who use every single loophole they can to get away with not paying their taxes and abusing every privilege the government offers, whether they (the corporations) need them or not.

I agree, and I think this is very unfair to the average hard working american who is paying a ton of taxes. I think there should be more government regulation when it comes to business practices.

Quote
I'd say the largest recipients of welfare are the middle class.  People like us, from the middle class, rant and rave about *them* receiving welfare when we are 'welfare' recipients.  What is social security or Medicare if not welfare?  What about stafford loans?  What about the FHA and the subsidizing of mortgage interest?  

Yes Jennifer, but we pay the most in taxes. I don't understand where you are coming from. Are you advocating that the middle class should be taxed more??? How about taxing the rich more, which is a better solution.
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« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2004, 05:54:30 PM »

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You have to take what Nacho says with a grain of salt.  He hears that stuff on those talk radio programs he listens to.  They're obsessed with illegal immigrants and "welfare queens."  He just doesn't know better.  

What???

Take a look at these sources & see what they have to say Jen..

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=Nationarchive200308NAT20030820a.html

http://www.fairus.org/ImmigrationIssueCenters/ImmigrationIssueCenters.cfm?ID=2382&c=13

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/7/29/150259.shtml

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« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2004, 06:11:58 PM »

well sisiters and brothers, i read your replies and as ania said there is nothing about muslims or...problems with muslims in washington dc the capital of "democracy"(peace on you socrates)
but in your reply...there is some kind of racism.....that i respect anyway:)
well i hope that the USA and the high standard of living countries will remember that there is a continent called africa:children are dying and starving 24 hours a day(chatting online about them 24 hours a day:ironic)
well i remember in 1997 when mother thereza died(peace on her)
everybody was busy LISTENING TO THE HOMOSEXUAL and the great artist elton john singing a good bye song to lady diana in a CHURCH:)
guys don't forget the children all around the world
UNITED FOR PEACE AND JUSTICE"LEBANON"

And is it Red Crescent giving aid to the starving children in Africa like the Red Cross and "Save the Children" and other "western" charities?  Or trying to buy the freedom of Christian and Animist Sudanese slaves owned by Muslims in that country?

I'm not sure what the death of Mother Theresa has to do with one small portion of the funeral of the late Princess Diana.  But it was hardly "Everybody" listening. If you were did you listen to any of the Chistian (Anglican) burial service or the real Christian/liturgical music?  

One person here made what was deemed "racist" remarks.  Did you read the posts that objected? More blanket statements it seems.

Ebor
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« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2004, 06:15:32 PM »

the holy quran:al maeda:the table spread
82:....AND NEAREST AMONG THEM IN LOVE TO BELIEVERS WILT THOU FIND THOSE WHO SAY:WE ARE CHRISTIANS:BECAUSE AMONGST THESE ARE MEN DEVOTED TO LEARNING AND MEN WHO HAVE RENOUNCED THE WORLD,AND THEY ARE NOT ARROGANT.


Is it "arrogant" to disagree when incorrect information is given?  

Please do not use all capitol letters.  Thats the equivalent of SHOUTING in a post.

Ebor
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« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2004, 06:28:19 PM »

Schultz, I agree with you.  Look at all the farmers and ranchers who use the subsidy programs.  They purposely grow crops that they know that there's not a big enough market for simply so that they can get subsidies.  Not to mention people who take advantage of welfare and medicare.  The fact is that illegal immigrants are often willing to work the jobs that most Americans (including some of the poor) are not willing to do.
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« Reply #43 on: May 03, 2004, 06:32:25 PM »

What Jennifer says about Social Security is true.  What we are paying into Social Security is going out as payments to those receiving Social Security now.  That is why there is real concern that when us Boomers and later generations get old enough to receive Social Security, it will be bankrupt because each generation is getting smaller.  Therefore, there will be fewer people paying into Social Security to make the payments.
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« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2004, 06:44:01 PM »

Quote
One person here made what was deemed "racist" remarks.  Did you read the posts that objected? More blanket statements it seems.

Racist in your own mind. The comments I made at the very most could be called "anti 3rd world" remarks. I challenge you to show me any so called racist remarks I have made. I find it offensive & a giant leap to what I originally posted & then somehow equate that to racism. I agree what I said could be insensitive to some that have come from a 3rd world country & trying hard to make it here & I should have put it in better terms & distengiush between legal & illegal immigrants. My apologies for not doing so....but calling it racist is plain nonsense.
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"If I find in myself a desire which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world."--Mere Christianity
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