are muslims terrorists?!

[StephenG]

Islam and terrorism. Sadly one only has to look at the life of Mohammed, the 'Caliphs' who succeeded him, the teachings of the Koran itself and the Hadiths or teachings to see that Jihadists would appear to have good grounds to say to young Moslems look here is what our faith teaches. A faith that makes absolutely no distinction between the religious and the secular.

Some will write of supposed 'Moslem' toleration, but these will have failed to check the history of those Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians who have lived, or still live under Moslem overlordship. Others will have forgotten that the last Caliphate, that of the Ottoman Turks was a considerable time referred to as. 'the sick man of Europe'.

Minorities are tolerated, suffered to live as long as they they in their place and if not, they should be exterminated. And that some lands should leave Moslem overlordship is in itself justification for any and all action against its' population.

And then there is the attitude to any past culture or polity from before the point a population 'accepts' Islam, it counts for nothing and is rejected - lock, stock and barrel.

As to the Albanians in Kosovo. Their 'terrorist' organisation UCK or Kosovo Liberation Army were linked from the beginning to one Osama bin Laden. Need one say any more?

[Justin Kissel]

Minorities are tolerated

Unlike the Old Testament, where both minorities and majorities were to be exterminated (except for the virgin girls, who you could keep for "wives") by command of God. And if you so much as spared some cattle, you could expect God's wrath.

[TomS]

God is love 

[StephenG]

Given the most appalling bloodletting in the last century was instigated by non-believers, I am not about to apologise for Christianity - whether to Moslems Jihadists or non-believers.

The New Testament versus the Koran. One is as different as chalk from cheese.

[Αριστοκλής]

Even if it is true that the Turks became more powerful from adopting Islam, it doesn't change the fact that they had already begun expansion prior to Islam. How can one blame Islam's values for Turkic expansion if it was there before conversion? There are plenty of good examples of Muslim invasion, that of Asia Minor is too shaky to be useful.

And Αριστοκλής's anti-Turk vitriol here is, as always, just silly. There are numerous populations that have done exactly what the early Turks did in coming upon a native population and making something new out of it, from the Slavs spreading into the Balkans and Central Europe to various Germanic tribes expanding from their central-European Urheimat to the Finns pushing into Sami territory. The only problem with the Turks is that in accepting first Islam then Ataturkism they decided against Christian values.

First, you're going to have to study some more history. The successive Turkic migrations to Anatolia (a Greek word, BTW) were not warlike movements until, under the Moslem influence, they resorted to the sword to accomplish their expansion where negotiation, purchase, and intermarriage did not.
The Germanic tribes became Christian (sort of), so to the Finns and the Slavs - not a good analogy.

OF COURSE, there anti-Turk vitrol here! Turkish crimes against humanity are in living memory of many of us here. And they continue.
I don't suppose it has dawned on all Orthodox Christians who clamor for a new Ecumenical Council (which agenda has been in the planning stage since the 1970s) that the Turks will not allow it. They are a plague.

[CRCulver]

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=3326.msg132485#msg132485 date=1156187500]The Germanic tribes became Christian (sort of), so to the Finns and the Slavs - not a good analogy.[/quote]

No, the analogy still stands. Note that I said all that remains a problem with the Turks is that they have not converted.

OF COURSE, there anti-Turk vitrol here! Turkish crimes against humanity are in living memory of many of us here. And they continue. I don't suppose it has dawned on all Orthodox Christians who clamor for a new Ecumenical Council (which agenda has been in the planning stage since the 1970s) that the Turks will not allow it. They are a plague.

One can justly express anger towards the Turkish government and its individual supporters. However, in claiming that the Turks "stole" Asia Minor, you slander the Turkish language and other impersonal and neutral cultural traits which are lovely and worthy of appreciation. You suggest that even if the Turks were kind to Orthodoxy, that still wouldn't be good enough because they just aren't Greek, Armenian, or the members of the other autochthonous populations. That's simply bigotry.

[Αριστοκλής]

Where did I say "stole" - make your argument accurately. They subjugated it, taking by any means and held non-Muslims as secondary citzens, doubly taxed with their property and churches confiscated (even now).
You sir, are as bigoted as I with your moral equivalency milarkey. I suggest nothing - I do aver that in fact a toleratnt Turkey would be acceptable. They are unteachable.

[sdcheung]

No, the analogy still stands. Note that I said all that remains a problem with the Turks is that they have not converted.

One can justly express anger towards the Turkish government and its individual supporters. However, in claiming that the Turks "stole" Asia Minor, you slander the Turkish language and other impersonal and neutral cultural traits which are lovely and worthy of appreciation. You suggest that even if the Turks were kind to Orthodoxy, that still wouldn't be good enough because they just aren't Greek, Armenian, or the members of the other autochthonous populations. That's simply bigotry.

I see nothing lovely or loveable about Turkish Language or culture. Except the food which they stole from the Greeks and others. if that makes me a bigot then GOOD, I wear it with pride. You have therefore met your first Chinese Archie Bunker.

[Justin Kissel]

Given the most appalling bloodletting in the last century was instigated by non-believers, I am not about to apologise for Christianity - whether to Moslems Jihadists or non-believers.

Well I applaud you for being up front with your dodging of the question. Most people would probably talk about God being mysterious or something like that, as though the Muslims engaging in physical jihad and a hundred other wackos couldn't use the same justification. But you, for you it is a numbers game and you admit it. You don't mind that your Holy Book had God giving specific instructions on how to treat captured virgins, how to divide the spoils of genocide, and when and where to massacre thundreds of thousands of people, from young children to the elderly... because hey, that's not as bad as Stalin, et al., right? Good non-apology.

The New Testament versus the Koran. One is as different as chalk from cheese.

Um, yeah. Well about 2/3 or more of your Bible is not the New Testament, it's this really old bunch of books that purports to have the very words of God in them. God said to this guy, thus sayeth the Lord to that guy. Apparently Christians think it legit; the NT authors most certainly did. So next time you don't offer an apology for Christianity, why not try offering a non-apology that includes your entire Bible? Besides, concepts like hell (found primarily in the NT), and a book like Revelation, are every bit as sadistic and wicked as the stuff found in the Old Testament. Those ancient Jews weren't so very barbaric, they were just more overtly physical with their barbarity, while Christians are willing to happily wait till some prophecied future event for their enemies to be tortured eternally.

[CRCulver]

I see nothing lovely or loveable about Turkish Language or culture. Except the food which they stole from the Greeks and others. if that makes me a bigot then GOOD, I wear it with pride.

Claiming that certain languages are not loveable is the Heresy of the Trilinguals. See St Cyril and Methodius' response to it in the Vita. St Cyril demonstrates that many peoples the heretics considered barbarians, even Turkic tribes, glorify God in their own languages.

[CRCulver]

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=3326.msg132489#msg132489 date=1156188289]
Where did I say "stole" - make your argument accurately. They subjugated it[/quote]

As did the Slavs, Germanic tribes, etc. The only problem with the Turks is that they are not Christian.

You sir, are as bigoted as I with your moral equivalency milarkey.

Where am I claiming moral equivalence? Individual human beings are moral agents, and I already said that those Turks who cast their lot against Christianity can be justly condemned. However, impersonal cultural matters such as language are not morally relevant.

[sdcheung]

Claiming that certain languages are not loveable is the Heresy of the Trilinguals. See St Cyril and Methodius' response to it in the Vita. St Cyril demonstrates that many peoples the heretics considered barbarians, even Turkic tribes, glorify God in their own languages.

Well it insults my sense of aesthetics. Turkish (along with Mongolian and Manchurian) definitely ranks as one of the most aesthetically displeasing language that i can submit my ear to. The others would be the "Clickers" from Africa. 

[GiC]

Unlike the Old Testament, where both minorities and majorities were to be exterminated (except for the virgin girls, who you could keep for "wives") by command of God. And if you so much as spared some cattle, you could expect God's wrath.

To judge Christianity based on bronze age Jewish myths is absurd. I will admit that Christianity went through violent stages in her history, but the difference between us and the Mohammedians is that we changed, we embraced the enlightenment and overcame the violence in our past (which, in the Empire at least, was almost always defensive in nature); as I demonstrated in my last post Islam, and Islam alone, has violently resisted enlightenment, Islam is in a uniqe category, an evil category, the equal of which cannot be found elsewhere in the modern world.

[Αριστοκλής]

Where am I claiming moral equivalence? Individual human beings are moral agents, and I already said that those Turks who cast their lot against Christianity can be justly condemned. However, impersonal cultural matters such as language are not morally relevant.

First, your entire approach
Find me a Muslim Turk who doesn't cast this lot against Christianity.
As to language - argue with yourself or my friend, Φωτις - I don't care about that.

[Anastasios]

I enjoy Turkish music, food (whether stolen from the Greeks or not), and the language is not my favorite but it's not as bad sounding to me personally as German LOL (Nektarios who loves German will now kill me).

Anastasios

[Αριστοκλής]

I enjoy Turkish music, food (whether stolen from the Greeks or not), and the language is not my favorite but it's not as bad sounding to me personally as German LOL (Nektarios who loves German will now kill me).

Anastasios

I'm ambivalent towards Turkish; but I am envious of Arabic speakers. I do like the sound of that language.

And much Greek food is Turkish -I'll admit that (ducking arrows).

[Anastasios]

I have heard snippets of the Divine Liturgy in Turkish, and know that Protestants send missionaries in there covertly. How cool would it be if we could get some Orthodox "house churches" started and use the internet as a tool to beam Orthodox literature and Chant translated into Turkish? In fact, I'd love to host such an endeavor partially as a way to thank those nice Turkish hackers that keep trying to take down our site

Anastasios

[Ιωάννης]

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=3326.msg132503#msg132503 date=1156190824]
And much Greek food is Turkish -I'll admit that (ducking arrows).
[/quote]

Is Tzatziki Turkish in origin? Or is it Greek all the way?

I'm pretty thorough in opinion when it comes to Turkish language. Ugly stuff.

-Ioannis

[ozgeorge]

I have heard snippets of the Divine Liturgy in Turkish, and know that Protestants send missionaries in there covertly. How cool would it be if we could get some Orthodox "house churches" started and use the internet as a tool to beam Orthodox literature and Chant translated into Turkish? In fact, I'd love to host such an endeavor partially as a way to thank those nice Turkish hackers that keep trying to take down our site

In part of Cappadocia, the Ottoman Turks demanded of the Greek Orthodox Christians that they either surrender their Faith or their Language, and they chose the latter. They began speaking only Turkish and wrote iTurkish using the Greek alphabet. In a matter of three generations, they completely lost the ability to speak Greek, however, they remained Orthodox Christians. When they were expelled from Turkey in 1922, they came to Thrace. In the Byzantine Museum of the Metropolis of Alexandroupolis is a copy of a New Testament which the refugees had brought with them which is written in Turkish using Greek letters.

[StephenG]

Dodge issues? Or perhaps my critic misses something?

I live in a city from which today one resident has been charged with terrorist offences relating to an alleged suicide attack on commercial aircraft. In this same city we have actually suffered terrorist bombings. The difference is there are no Christian suicide bombers floating around the Western world I am aware of. But Moslem ones there have been and apparently are. No New Testament teaching (which predates the Koran by 600 years) and no cleric I am aware of teaches a mixture of 'religious' teaching that justifies any and all forms of attack on non-Moslems, or indeed any Moslem apparently not buying their take on Islam. And these groups want nothing less than total world domination according to their doctrines (shudder).

But nothing I write, or rather will attempt to write, is likely to satisfy my critic because I suspect of his own particular take on religion and its value or otherwise.

Anyone know of any terrorist groups working from an ideology generated from the Old Testament?

Jihadist terrorists are a real threat.

 

[Anastasios]

In part of Cappadocia, the Ottoman Turks demanded of the Greek Orthodox Christians that they either surrender their Faith or their Language, and they chose the latter. They began speaking only Turkish and wrote iTurkish using the Greek alphabet. In a matter of three generations, they completely lost the ability to speak Greek, however, they remained Orthodox Christians. When they were expelled from Turkey in 1922, they came to Thrace. In the Byzantine Museum of the Metropolis of Alexandroupolis is a copy of a New Testament which the refugees had brought with them which is written in Turkish using Greek letters.

Are these people distinct from the Karamanian (sp) Turks who were Orthodox before the Ottoman times? Or are there conflicting theories of the origins of the same group of people?  I find the subject interesting; there are also Greek-speaking Muslims still in Turkey who speak a dialect of Pontiaka and wrote before 1928 Greek in Turkish letters.  It seems that in ancient times one wrote in the letters of his religion--witness Syriac Muslims writing in Arabic letters and Arab Christians using Syriac script for some time.

Anastasios

[ozgeorge]

Are these people distinct from the Karamanian (sp) Turks who were Orthodox before the Ottoman times? Or are there conflicting theories of the origins of the same group of people?  I find the subject interesting; there are also Greek-speaking Muslims still in Turkey who speak a dialect of Pontiaka and wrote before 1928 Greek in Turkish letters.  It seems that in ancient times one wrote in the letters of his religion--witness Syriac Muslims writing in Arabic letters and Arab Christians using Syriac script for some time.

Anastasios

From what I understand, these people were Romoi. I only found out about them last year while visiting the Byzantine Museum in Alexandroupolis.
I don't know how your Greek is, but here is a link to some information (In Greek) I could find about them on the internet:
http://www.oodegr.com/oode/istoria/ekklisia/kapadokia1.htm

For those interested, the title of the web page translates as:
"A Miracle in Asia Minor: The Turkish-speaking Romans".

[Timos]

I never understood how Greek food was ever originally Turkish in origin...Wouldn't it make more sense to sggest that it was the Turks who adopted Greek food or whatever, Armenian, Arabic food? If you look at each one of these foods, they are very similar but not exactly the same, thus it wouldn't make sense if all these similar but distinct foods all came from one culture entirely...of course some will offer the rebuttal that greek food is a mix of greek food and turkish food. I don't know how the food in Central Asia (Turk's true home) is...

I love the land Asia Minor (aka 'Turkiye') btw, I just hate the government and the army. The people don't seem as bad as they're villianized- well don't say that to my grandparents lol. The only time I've heard of civillian Turks acting stupid was in Cyprus and back in the 1950's in Constantinople when this crazed riot burned and pillaged churches and christian homes...

[sdcheung]

The only time I've heard of civillian Turks acting stupid was in Cyprus and back in the 1950's in Constantinople when this crazed riot burned and pillaged churches and christian homes...

and who spurred them on in their 1955 Constantinople Cristallnact .. Turk Jew owned newspaper.

[Νεκτάριος]

it's not as bad sounding to me personally as German LOL (Nektarios who loves German will now kill me).

It's all in the dialect.  Bavarian, Swabish and various Swiss dialects sound very differnt than the stereotypical German.   

[FrChris]

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=3326.msg132643#msg132643 date=1156290816]
It's all in the dialect.  Bavarian, Swabish and various Swiss dialects sound very differnt than the stereotypical German.   
[/quote]

Indeed! When I was a child, if I spoke using a Suddeutschen accent at the very best I would get a stern glance of warning from GroBvater und Grobmutter!

[Αριστοκλής]

I have heard snippets of the Divine Liturgy in Turkish, and know that Protestants send missionaries in there covertly. How cool would it be if we could get some Orthodox "house churches" started and use the internet as a tool to beam Orthodox literature and Chant translated into Turkish? In fact, I'd love to host such an endeavor partially as a way to thank those nice Turkish hackers that keep trying to take down our site

Anastasios

I like this the more I think about it, Anastasios.
Here at OC.net we have a "Wizard of Oz" who I believe has had experience communicating with the Ecumenical Patriarchate - the EP himself, I think. Unofficially, perhaps we can get some help there? After all, who knows Turkish better among the Orthodox ?

P.S.: What ever happened to the not-in-communion Turkish Orthodox Church?

[Anastasios]

It has dwindled to about 3 people. Unfortunately, it was never viable, and it was nationalistic and schismatic.

[Νεκτάριος]

After all, who knows Turkish better among the Orthodox ?

Some of the Turkic peoples in Russia have Orthodox populations.  I do not know what their liturgical language is, but my guess would be Russian/Slavonic.  Still it would be cool to see some sort of revival/creation of an Orthodox Christian Turkic identity. 

[sdcheung]

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=3326.msg132733#msg132733 date=1156342199]
Some of the Turkic peoples in Russia have Orthodox populations.  I do not know what their liturgical language is, but my guess would be Russian/Slavonic.  Still it would be cool to see some sort of revival/creation of an Orthodox Christian Turkic identity. 
[/quote]

You mean these ppl?

Gagauz
A language of Moldova

ISO/DIS 639-3: gag
Population    138,000 in Moldova (2000). Population total all countries: 150,000.
Region    Cultural center is Kishinev. Also spoken in Bulgaria, Kazakhstan, Romania, Ukraine.
Alternate names      Gagauzi
Dialects    Bulgar Gagauzi, Maritime Gagauzi. Close to Turkish, but uses Russian Orthodox Christian religious vocabulary in contrast to the Islamic vocabulary of Turkish.
Classification    Altaic, Turkic, Southern, Turkish
Language use    89% speak it as first language.
Language development    Cyrillic script. Bible portions: 1927—1996.
Comments    Speakers have proclaimed autonomy from Moldova and appealed to Turkey for protection. Christian.
Also spoken in:
Bulgaria
Language name      Gagauz
Population    12,000 in Bulgaria (1982).
Region    Varna coastal region.
Alternate names      Gagauzi
Dialects    Bulgar Gagauz, Maritime Gagauz.
Comments    Christian.
 
Romania
Language name      Gagauz
Alternate names      Gagauzi
Dialects    Bulgar Gagauz, Maritime Gagauz.
Comments    Christian.

they're kind of tainted. the regime in Turkey has been giving them aid and stuff, and they now fell more Turkic. instead of adhering to Romiosini.

[Elisha]

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=3326.msg132643#msg132643 date=1156290816]
It's all in the dialect.  Bavarian, Swabish and various Swiss dialects sound very differnt than the stereotypical German.   
[/quote]

Warscheinlich Baden-Wurttembergisch auch.  Meine Bekannte in Heidelberg sagte das sie ihre Eltern manchmal nicht verstehen kann.  Bade-Wurttembergish ist etwas anderes von Swabish.

[Νεκτάριος]

You mean these ppl?

Around 10% of the Volga Tatars are Christians and some of the smaller Turkic groups in that area are also mostly or partly Christian.  It would be interesting to see how they do or don't combine their faith and ethnic identity. 

[Αριστοκλής]

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=3326.msg132788#msg132788 date=1156362365]
Around 10% of the Volga Tatars are Christians and some of the smaller Turkic groups in that area are also mostly or partly Christian.  It would be interesting to see how they do or don't combine their faith and ethnic identity. 
[/quote]

Indeed it would be, as would studying the several groups in the Caucasus which are hybids of both religions - Muslims with icons of the Lord and the Theotokos. Boggles the mind.

[Timos]

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=3326.msg132792#msg132792 date=1156363417]
 Muslims with icons of the Lord and the Theotokos. Boggles the mind.
[/quote]
Funny...at a huge greek street festival I went to in Toronto recently (Taste of the Danforth), there were many Turkish/muslim sellers who sold greek bracelets, icons, komboskinia, etc. I thought that was weird...they're probably only in it for the $$$. Same goes for these Christian shop owners who own this arabic food store, yet you'd guess that they're hardcore muslims once you stepped inside seeing all the prayer rugs, veils, and "islamic mecca clocks".

[Νεκτάριος]

Indeed it would be, as would studying the several groups in the Caucasus which are hybids of both religions - Muslims with icons of the Lord and the Theotokos. Boggles the mind.

Interesting, that sort of sounds like Albanian Bektashis.  Grass roots syncretism can yield some curious results.  I have a professor this semester that specializes in Turkic matters; I hope the class of hers that I'm taking this semester will cover Turkic Christians.  We'll see. 

[Αριστοκλής]

Νεκτάριος, let me know more about this class when you get more into it, please.

Timos, yes, funny. But I have prayer rugs (among other orientals - a passion of mine), some obviously real ones and I don't feel muslim at all 

[Apostlos2]

[quote author=Νεκτάριος link=topic=3326.msg132829#msg132829 date=1156378344]
Interesting, that sort of sounds like Albanian Bektashis
[/quote]

...or Shi'a Alevis

[Apostlos2]

I enjoy Turkish music....
Anastasios

Anastasios, you mean Ottoman music right? 'Cause I don't think there was, is or will ever be Turkish music...Ottoman classical music, like this:
[right click, save target as]
Acem-Kurdi
a composition of the famous Ottoman composer...Antonaki -> yeap, real name :
Huseyni
...and another one from the famous Ottoman composer Nikolaki Kemencenci  :
Sehnaz
...oh and one from the very-very famous Ottoman composer Vassilaki Efendi  :
Kurdili


...now for some real music:
[right click, save target as]
Traditional song from Smyrna
Traditional Klephtic song
Traditional Epirotan song

PS: Sorry for the off-topic, just take a break 

[sdcheung]

Traditional Klephtic song


now thats what i'm talkin' about.

[Αριστοκλής]

And the Epirotan song sounds like the medieval music in the backgound of a Mt. Athos CD I viewed. I loved it and need to buy one (tempted to copy it, but resisted the sinful urge).

[sdcheung]

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=3326.msg132981#msg132981 date=1156454057]
And the Epirotan song sounds like the medieval music in the backgound of a Mt. Athos CD I viewed. I loved it and need to buy one (tempted to copy it, but resisted the sinful urge).
[/quote]

Thats an Epirotan "Skaros"..Pastoral Music. To go along with your sheep pasturing.  Well the the Instrumental Introduction part of the piece.

[Αριστοκλής]

Thats an Epirotan "Skaros"..Pastoral Music. To go along with your sheep pasturing.

Thanks, Foti...takes a NY Chinaman to teach old Αριστοκλής !

[sdcheung]

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=3326.msg132994#msg132994 date=1156455934]
Thanks, Foti...takes a NY Chinaman to teach old Αριστοκλής !
[/quote]

LOL

I love Hellenic Demotika. homeschooled myself on this stuff.

[Αριστοκλής]

I love Hellenic Demotika. homeschooled myself on this stuff.

Now I AM envious.

[sdcheung]

[quote author=Αριστοκλής link=topic=3326.msg133001#msg133001 date=1156456312]
Now I AM envious.
[/quote]

the funniest Greek demotika I heard came from Calabria and the Greek Villages there.

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