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Author Topic: are muslims terrorists?!  (Read 42839 times) Average Rating: 0
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ByzantineSerb
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« Reply #90 on: May 04, 2004, 04:42:36 PM »

I forgot to add that I realize many of those catalysts don't affect terrorists' decision to become blood-thirsty killers- they are just following Sharias, Haddith, and the Koran (in their eyes no doubt).

So some spiritual remedies don't work- just got to wipe 'em out.
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« Reply #91 on: May 04, 2004, 04:47:48 PM »

  Eastern Orthodox with Southern twang! Now that is true inculturation!
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« Reply #92 on: May 04, 2004, 04:54:53 PM »

hehe.

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« Reply #93 on: May 04, 2004, 05:16:48 PM »

Man am I glad my family only immigrated from Germany after the 1940s...  too many complications (though I think if we had been here back in the day we woulda fought for the CSA).
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« Reply #94 on: May 04, 2004, 05:46:24 PM »

Basically to sum it all up:

We know not all muslim are terrorists, its just that most of the terrorist actiions comitted in the world today are done by Muslims.

We know Christian groups have been terrorists as well......The IRA from Ireland, The Chetniks, The Ustase and The VMRO from the former balkans.....but more or less these organizations were terrorist before we were a global community so not to much was really known about them through out the world.

Then you also have your European Brigades such as the Red Brigade, Nov 11 (the greek one I believe)  these groups are basically communist in the ideology so I wouldn't classify them as christians


Now days if some one farts in a hut in africa we can find out in a matter of seconds....so when these so called Muslim Freedom fighters blow up pizza shops, or fly planes into buildings, or attach bombs to themselves and target buses etc........it just gets to the point where lately the terrorist groups have been muslim.


This boils down to these muslim fundamentalist that hate the way we live in the western world......and blame all of there problems on the western world.......instead of looking inside and placing the blame on themselves.

What gets me is that the main rallying point is a homeland for Palestine...but doesn't 60% of palestine fall into what is now present day Jordan?  Why hasn't there been suicide bombings there...maybe because they are muslim......we all know that is the reason why there is no bombings in Jordan.  We all know that the gov'ts in the middle east are dictatorships more or less......why hasnt there been mass up risings to protest the dictatorships.

The answer is simple.  The muslims want to control the middle east, they want to get rid of the christian and jewish sites in the middle east. If it was really for a Palestinian homeland what is happening in Isreal should be happining in Jordan.

To me the muslims are waging a holy war against non muslims under the disguise of a free Palestinian state....thats BS....cause if a Palestinian state was important they would be pressuring Jordan to give up some parts of its land as well.

Its a holy war that the muslims are fighting in the middle east....and they are now striking the gov'ts that are supporting the Israelis ............I support the right of Israel to exist only for the fact that I have never seen or heard of a christian church being turned into a jewish temple.......but I have seen and heard of christian churches turned into mosques by muslims.

This isn't about a palestinian homeland its about controling the religous center of the world.  I would rather have it under Israeli control then under Arab Muslim control........I am just being honest about that.

Idealy I would make the whole religous areas of the world a world heritage site run by the UN......no one nation can claim it but the world could.....let the UN run it.  Since its important to the three major religions of the world......let the world run the religous area's in that region.

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« Reply #95 on: May 04, 2004, 06:04:28 PM »

Canmak, you make some good arguements, but your points about Jordan and Palestine aren't accurate.  The British Mandate of Palestine was divided after 1948 between Israel, Egypt and Trans-Jordan.  The portion alloted to Egypt (the Gaza Strip) and the portion alloted to Jordan (the west bank) were both conquored and occupied by Israel in 1967.  Hence, no part of the original territory of Palestine is under anyone's control but Israel.  There are large numbers of Palestinian refugees who were ethnically cleansed by the Israelis who now live in Jordanian territory.  The large influx of Palestinians into Jordan has lead to some instability in that moderate state and the large number of Palestinians taking refuge in Lebanon tilted the the Religious balance in favor of Islam and contributed to the bloody civil war in that country.
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« Reply #96 on: May 04, 2004, 06:15:53 PM »

some very good arguments Canmak, but I don't agree entirely.  A good many Palastenians are actually Orthodox and other Christians.  These people are mowed down both by Isrealies and by Mohamadean Palastenians.  

At this stage in the game both a Palastinian state and the Isrealie state would/are be friendly towards Christian pilgrims because lets face it, we make up the bulk of the economy in the region.  Historically however, Mohamadean states have not been particularly friendly to either Christians living in the area or pilgrims.

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« Reply #97 on: May 04, 2004, 07:27:46 PM »

I will ask the admins if it is alright to start a thread about Japan, in Other Board, maybe, if you like.  If you get me started, I probably will go deep into the history and geography and how they shape the culture (unless someone smacks me with a 2x4) as well as the religious systems there (Shinto is native, but Buddhism was worked in).  And how there are different social groups that aren't usually talked about as much: the Ainu in the north, people of Korean extraction that though they have been in Japan for generations are catagorized as "Korean" and the Burakumin, "Untouchables" of a kind.  Japan is not a monolith.

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Ebor,

I would not be able to contribute to such a thread, but I would like to see it.  I remember one of the new posters who is a member of the SCA also had a hobby of Japanese history.  Perhaps that would draw him out so he can post more.  Grin
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« Reply #98 on: May 04, 2004, 10:20:20 PM »

Thank you, David.  I've checked with Dustin and he said it was fine.  There's a new poster with SCA and Japan?  Most excellent.  Now to figure out where to start...  


Ebor
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« Reply #99 on: May 04, 2004, 10:24:11 PM »

Quote
I forgot to add that I realize many of those catalysts don't affect terrorists' decision to become blood-thirsty killers- they are just following Sharias, Haddith, and the Koran (in their eyes no doubt).

So some spiritual remedies don't work- just got to wipe 'em out.

Amen brother!!!!

It's nice to see a lot of these new guys on here who have some common sense!!!

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« Reply #100 on: May 05, 2004, 12:57:12 AM »

Don't you people see that Palestine is Jordan and vice versa....Palestine is not the area that only covers what now is Israel...........but that is the area that there are bombs.......ask yourselves why, lets be honest about this.....they want to make a Muslim dominated region there...they do not want any other religion represented in the middle east.....if you honestly think they do then you are blind.  

Here are some quotes from arabs themselves:


Concerning Palestine East Of The River Jordan
On August 23,1959, the Prime Minister of Jordan stated, "We are the Government of Palestine, the army of Palestine and the refugees of Palestine."

Each day brings me closer to the realization that Palestine, as it wants to exist within the boundary of Israel, and impose this view on the world community, is a farce... an imaginative place with imaginative people. History proves over and over again that JORDAN IS INDEED PALESTINE.

Here are several quotes from "officials" in the so-called Palestinian community. LET THEM SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES!!!!

"Palestine and Transjordan are one, for Palestine is the coastline and Transjordan the hinterland of the same country."

- King Abdullah, at the Meeting of the Arab League, Cairo, 12th April 1948

"Let us not forget the East Bank of the (River) Jordan, where seventy per cent of the inhabitants belong to the Palestinian nation."

- George Habash, leader of the PFLP section of the PLO, writing in the PLO publication Sha-un Falastinia, February 1970

"Palestine is Jordan and Jordan is Palestine; there is one people and one land, with one history and one and the same fate."

- Prince Hassan, brother of King Hussein, addressing the Jordanian National Assembly, 2nd February 1970

"There is no family on the East Bank of the river (Jordan) that does not have relatives on the West Bank ... no family in the west that does not have branches in the east."

- King Hussein, addressing the Jordanian National Assembly, 2nd February 1972

"We consider it necessary to clarify to one and all, in the Arab world and outside, that the PALESTINIAN PEOPLE with its nobility and conscience is to be found HERE on the EAST Bank (of the Jordan River), The WEST Bank and the Gaza Strip. Its overwhelming majority is HERE and nowhere else."

- King Hussein, quoted in An-Hahar, Beirut, 24th August 1972

"The Palestinians here constitute not less than one half of the members of the armed forces. They and their brothers, the sons of Transjordan, constitute the members of one family who are equal in everything, in rights and duties." (Quoted by BBC Monitoring Service)

- King Hussein, on Amman Radio, 3rd February 1973

"There are, as well, links of geography and history, and a wide range of interests between the two Banks (of the River Jordan) which have grown stronger over the past twenty years. Let us not forget that el-Salt and Nablus were within the same district - el-Balka - during the Ottoman period, and that family and commercial ties bound the two cities together."

- Hamdi Ken'an, former Mayor of Nablus, writing in the newspaper Al-Quds, 14th March 1973

"The new Jordan, which emerged in 1949, was the creation of the Palestinians of the West Bank and their brothers in the East. While Israel was the negation of the Palestinian right of self-determination, unified Jordan was the expression of it."

- Sherif Al-Hamid Sharaf, Representative of Jordan at the UN Security Council, 11th June 1973

Past "President Bourguiba (of Tunisia) considers Jordan an artificial creation presented by Great Britain to King Abdullah. But he accepts Palestine and the Palestinians as an existing and primary fact since the days of the Pharaohs. Israel, too, he considers as a primary entity. However, Arab history makes no distinction between Jordanians, Syrians and Palestinians. Most of them hail from the same Arab race, which arrived in the region with the Arab Moslem conquest."

- Editorial Comment in the Jordanian Armed Forces' weekly, Al-Aqsa, Amman, 11th July 1973

"With all respect to King Hussein, I suggest that the Emirate of Transjordan was created from oil cloth by Great Britain, which for this purpose cut up ancient Palestine. To this desert territory to the bast of the Jordan (River)., it gave the name Transjordan. But there is nothing in history which carries this name. While since our earliest time there was Palestine and Palestinians. I maintain that the matter of Transjordan is an artificial one, and that Palestine is the basic problem. King Hussein should submit to the wishes of the people, in accordance with the principles of democracy and self-determination, so as-to avoid the fate of his grandfather, Abdullah, or of his cousin, Feisal, both of whom were assassinated."

- Past President Bourguiba of Tunisia, in a public statement, July 1973

"The Palestinians and the Jordanians have created on this soil since 1948 one family - all of whose children have equal rights and obligations."

- King Hussein, addressing an American Delegation, 19th February 1975

"How much better off Hussein would be if he had been induced to abandon his pose as a benevolent 'host' to 'refugees' and to affirm the fact that Jordan is the Palestinian Arab nation-state, just as Israel is the Palestinian Jewish nation-state."

- Editorial Comment in the publication The Economist of 19th July 1975

"Palestine and Jordan were both (by then) under British Mandate, but as my grandfather pointed out in his memoirs, they were hardly separate countries. Transjordan being to the east of the River Jordan, it formed in a sense, the interior of Palestine."

- King Hussein, writing in his Memoirs

"...those fishing in troubled waters will not succeed in dividing our people, which extends to both sides of the (River) Jordan, in spite of the artificial boundaries established by the Colonial Office and Winston Churchill half a century ago."

- Yassir Arafat, in a statement to Eric Roleau

"Palestinian Arabs hold seventy-five per cent of all government jobs in Jordan."

- The Sunday newspaper The Observer of 2nd March 1976

"Palestinian Arabs control over seventy per cent of Jordan's economy."

- The Egyptian newspaper Al Ahram of 5th March 1976

"There should be a kind of linkage because Jordanians and Palestinians are considered by the PLO as one people."

- Farouk Kadoumi, head of the PLO Political Department, quoted in Newsweek, 14th March 1977

"Along these lines, the West German Der Spiegel magazine this month cited Dr George Habash, leader of one of the Palestinian organizations, as saying that 70 per cent of Jordan's population are Palestinians and that the power in Jordan should be seized." (Translated by BBC Monitoring Service)

- From a commentary which was broadcast by Radio Amman, 30th June 1980

"Jordan is not just another Arab state with regard to Palestine but, rather, Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan in terms of territory, national identity, sufferings, hopes and aspirations, both day and night. Though we are all Arabs and our point of departure is that we are all members of the same people, the Palestinian-Jordanian nation is one and unique, and different from those of the other Arab states."

- Marwan al Hamoud, member of the Jordanian National Consultative Council and former Minister of Agriculture, quoted by Al Rai, Amman, 24th September 1980

"The potential weak spot in Jordan is that most of the population are not, strictly speaking, Jordanian at all, but Palestinian. An estimated 60 per cent of the country's 2,500,000 people are Palestinians ... Most of these hold Jordanian passports, and many are integrated into Jordanian society."

- Richard Owen, in an article published in The Times, 14th November 1980

"There is no moral justification for a second Palestine."
- The Freeman Center (September 3, 1993)


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« Reply #101 on: May 05, 2004, 01:05:12 AM »

After you read all those quotes Ask yourselves why is it there no suicide bombings in Jordan?  If Yassar Arafat the leader of the so called Palestinians says Jordan is Palestine then why isn't there bombs there.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/907340/posts

check it out
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« Reply #102 on: May 05, 2004, 06:08:09 AM »


Last week I was following links and came to a blog written by a Muslim gentleman living in Saudi Arabia.  He is very much against the Muttawa (the "religious police") and thought that Abp. Carey (actually, being retired I think he's Lord Carey now) "hit the nail on the head".  Right now the blog is not being up dated as things are unsettled in S.A. and if he were to be found out, the authorities would not be....indifferent, let's say.
I'll send you the URL if you want.  It's an amazing site and dedicated to the 15 girls who died in the Makkah school fire because the Muttawa wouldn't let them out without their abaya and veil.  He doesn't mince words about some of the evil treatment of women and other things in S.A.

Ebor

Yes, please post the URL, it would be good to read the views of this man to balance the propaganda of United.

Thanks,

Brigid
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« Reply #103 on: May 08, 2004, 01:00:29 AM »

Indeed, Phil, that was an incredibly racist thing to say.  I have lived in overwhelmingly immigrant neighborhoods (usually South American but sometimes Asian) and I have never, ever seen an abuse of welfare by such immigrants.  If anything, they work longer and harder than the average white American living in the same neighborhood.

You denounce racism, but then turn around and use it against whites.

I lived in Texas and Florida for many years and worked side-by-side with Latinos on construction jobs and a very high number were on welfare and using other government programs. They made no secret about it. Just because they work, doesn't mean they're not taking an assortment of handouts.

I have no doubt that if America cut out all the freebies, immigration will drop like a rock. After all, there's nobody starving in Mexico. I saw plenty of plump Mexicans.

I think its ridiculous that a person comes here (legally or illegally) and heads straight for a government office for some kind of handout.  In years past, nobody was allowed to come to America if they were suspected of becoming a "public charge." Now the situation is practically reversed - we seem to only allow people who become public charges!

A couple of years ago I talked to a women from England who immigrated to the US. Here's someone with job skills, speaks English, a Christian, and can be easily assimilated, but the INS made her jump through all kinds of hoops for years before allowing her to become a citizen.

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« Reply #104 on: May 08, 2004, 01:05:18 AM »

here here.  Here here!

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« Reply #105 on: May 08, 2004, 02:43:10 AM »

Quote
You denounce racism, but then turn around and use it against whites.

I lived in Texas and Florida for many years and worked side-by-side with Latinos on construction jobs and a very high number were on welfare and using other government programs. They made no secret about it. Just because they work, doesn't mean they're not taking an assortment of handouts.

I have no doubt that if America cut out all the freebies, immigration will drop like a rock. After all, there's nobody starving in Mexico. I saw plenty of plump Mexicans.

I think its ridiculous that a person comes here (legally or illegally) and heads straight for a government office for some kind of handout.  In years past, nobody was allowed to come to America if they were suspected of becoming a "public charge." Now the situation is practically reversed - we seem to only allow people who become public charges!

A couple of years ago I talked to a women from England who immigrated to the US. Here's someone with job skills, speaks English, a Christian, and can be easily assimilated, but the INS made her jump through all kinds of hoops for years before allowing her to become a citizen.

I agree with some of of the things you are saying here. I have Russian friends & can't beleive tha amount of stuff they get away with. I also heard that about 1/5 of the russian immigrants they let in have criminal records in thier home country. I guess that's what happens when you let a lot of PC sensitive bone head liberals run our system.

I also disagree with our "lottery" system of letting anyone in. I think the best & brightest with a good work history, education, and a clean record should have first priority. Americans are starting to get real tired of the current system.  

On the other hand, I do feel compassion for the less fortunate that really want to fulfill the "american dream." I'm not ignorant of who's cleaning toilets & offices at night & working our fields, which most americans don't have the "dignity" to do.What we need to do is cut out the welfare that is so easy for some people to get & provide these people with services that are going to help themselves & thier families. I think that better "educating" these people may be key for success and giving them as many options as possible. Instead of just giving them handouts, there could be government services that help new immigrants find work & maybe give incentives to companies that hire such people.
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« Reply #106 on: May 08, 2004, 03:15:58 AM »

there are many immense talents both among immigrants and natural citizens that are being squandered by the welfare state.

Michael Oleska also stated that the system was literally destroying the native alaskan tribes.

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« Reply #107 on: May 08, 2004, 04:11:22 AM »

On the other hand, I do feel compassion for the less fortunate that really want to fulfill the "american dream."

Yes, but are things really that bad in their country, or is it just a matter of them wanting more? Or wanting it for free?

Here's another issue directly related to immigration. How much crowding do we want? I go into cities and the congestion makes me not want to come back. More people only means more congestion.

Quote
I'm not ignorant of who's cleaning toilets & offices at night & working our fields, which most americans don't have the "dignity" to do.What we need to do is cut out the welfare that is so easy for some people to get & provide these people with services that are going to help themselves & thier families. I think that better "educating" these people may be key for success and giving them as many options as possible. Instead of just giving them handouts, there could be government services that help new immigrants find work & maybe give incentives to companies that hire such people.    

I suppose we can have a certain amount of immigration, but the problem now its out of control. I think we need to stop all of it for at least ten years, but the powers that be want to keep the floodgates open. The liberals have this idea that the more "diverse" America becomes the better. The Repubs mostly want the cheap labor. The net result is the wishes of average American is simply ignored. Well, so much for democracy.

From an Orthodox persepctive, I have to wonder why we should want any non-Orthodox immigrants? I realize its unreasonable to think that can ever be the case, but I'm just being pragmatic. Having Muslims and other non-Christians coming here really isn't helping us any. I don't think allowing America to become more non-Christian will do anything but further weaken what Christian traditions we have left - especially with the way the liberals are inclined to pander to anything that's not Christian.

Oh well, sometimes I get a headache thinking about it.

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« Reply #108 on: May 08, 2004, 08:06:06 AM »

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Nacho: I agree with some of of the things you are saying here. I have Russian friends & can't beleive tha amount of stuff they get away with. I also heard that about 1/5 of the russian immigrants they let in have criminal records in thier home country. I guess that's what happens when you let a lot of PC sensitive bone head liberals run our system.

I have seen and stood in the mile-long line of Russians, all hoping for visas, outside the U.S. Embassy in Moscow. I have also experienced the many hurdles that Russians must jump before being allowed to come to this country, even temporarily.

I can tell you firsthand, Russians don't get into this country very easily. I would be really surprised if those with criminal records - beyond misdemeanors - get to come at all (unless some big time bucks are changing hands).

They have no "PC sensitive bone head liberals" pulling strings for them - libs don't pull strings for any Europeans.
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« Reply #109 on: May 08, 2004, 08:26:41 PM »

I think its ridiculous that a person comes here (legally or illegally) and heads straight for a government office for some kind of handout.  In years past, nobody was allowed to come to America if they were suspected of becoming a "public charge." Now the situation is practically reversed - we seem to only allow people who become public charges!

I think it's ridiculous that the original poster seemed to assume that all third world people were the way he was describing them.  I know at least one large group of people who did not fit the bill in my experience, and I let it be known.  Sure there are people who abuse the system, but not all.  I know immigrants who abuse the system, I know immigrants who don't; likewise, I know "natives" who are hard workers, and "natives" looking for every handout imaginable.  You can't generalise.

Quote
From an Orthodox persepctive, I have to wonder why we should want any non-Orthodox immigrants? I realize its unreasonable to think that can ever be the case, but I'm just being pragmatic. Having Muslims and other non-Christians coming here really isn't helping us any. I don't think allowing America to become more non-Christian will do anything but further weaken what Christian traditions we have left - especially with the way the liberals are inclined to pander to anything that's not Christian.

From a different type of Orthodox perspective, all the Orthodox in America are the result of immigration of one type or another; Orthodoxy isn't the native religion in the New World as it is in countries of the Old.  I understand the point you are making, but cannot bring myself to say "I'm OK, but X is not", when we are on an equal footing, being of religions which, however different from each other, are still completely different from the majority religion here.  

What Christian traditions do we have left in America, btw?  As far as I'm concerned, this stopped being a Christian nation a long time ago.  

Quote
I have seen and stood in the mile-long line of Russians, all hoping for visas, outside the U.S. Embassy in Moscow. I have also experienced the many hurdles that Russians must jump before being allowed to come to this country, even temporarily.

I can tell you firsthand, Russians don't get into this country very easily. I would be really surprised if those with criminal records - beyond misdemeanors - get to come at all (unless some big time bucks are changing hands).

I agree with Linus.  My uncle has been in this country legally since 1996 (when he came here to see his brother--my father--on his deathbed), trying to legally achieve immigrant status.  He's been on visitor visas and work visas.  As of right now, he still doesn't have immigrant status, and is still working hard to get it, even though he speaks the language, has a degree, is a medical professional, has worked here for years, is a law abiding resident, and has been such in a few countries, etc., etc., etc.  Basically, if you obey the law and work with the legal process, thus showing respect for the ways of the US, it is extremely difficult to get into this country.  If you disobey, you can have a job, a residence, and public education (maybe?) as soon as you get off your plane, boat, or inner tube.
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« Reply #110 on: May 09, 2004, 12:14:31 AM »

From a different type of Orthodox perspective, all the Orthodox in America are the result of immigration of one type or another; Orthodoxy isn't the native religion in the New World as it is in countries of the Old.  I understand the point you are making, but cannot bring myself to say "I'm OK, but X is not", when we are on an equal footing, being of religions which, however different from each other, are still completely different from the majority religion here.


I live in an area that had a lot of immigration years ago from Eastern Europe and for that reason we have a higher number of Orthodox churches here. But the current immigration situation is very different from that when Orthodox Christians came here in large numbers. Back then there was no welfare state to be abused and even the American-born citizens respected the Slavic people for honesty and willingness to work hard. And they weren't inclined to crime like some immigrant groups today. The point is that just because we had immigration in the past, doesn't mean we always have to have it. Likewise, just because some immigrants make good citizens, doesn't mean we must accept anyone who wants to come.

I think whether immigrants are to be admitted, is something that should be decided by the citizens and not the prospective immigrant. Just because someone wants to come here, doesn't mean they have some right to come. After all, everybody would like to have things, but that doesn't mean we have an automatic right to these things.

Personally, I think its a mistake to allow Muslims to come here, since, sooner or later, when they gain enough confidence, they will begin to attack Christianity and try to impose their values and beliefs on us. For example, the folks in Michigan now have to put up with Muslim prayers being blasted over loudspeakers in their town. That is just the beginning, I have no doubt.

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What Christian traditions do we have left in America, btw?  As far as I'm concerned, this stopped being a Christian nation a long time ago.  I agree with Linus.

You certainly have a point. Compared to even when I was growing up, things have changed drastically in that regard. But I think it will still get worse if things continue.

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My uncle has been in this country legally since 1996 (when he came here to see his brother--my father--on his deathbed), trying to legally achieve immigrant status.  He's been on visitor visas and work visas.  As of right now, he still doesn't have immigrant status, and is still working hard to get it, even though he speaks the language, has a degree, is a medical professional, has worked here for years, is a law abiding resident, and has been such in a few countries, etc., etc., etc.  Basically, if you obey the law and work with the legal process, thus showing respect for the ways of the US, it is extremely difficult to get into this country.  If you disobey, you can have a job, a residence, and public education (maybe?) as soon as you get off your plane, boat, or inner tube.

This is why our immigration mechanism is a joke. Besides immigrants like your uncle who try to obtaion citizenship by abiding by the laws, ILLEGAL immigrants now actually have MORE rights than native born citizens. For example, a number of states give illegal aliens cheaper college tuition than US citizens. Talk about the twilight zone! I also think illegal aliens can even take advantage of affirmative action programs originally designed to help American blacks. Its completely crazy.

But returning to the question of whether we should allow only Christian immigrants, look at Kosovo and what happened there due to uncontrolled immigration or migration of Muslims.

From my perspective, I simply cannot see how allowing Muslims, Hindus, or any other non-Christians into the country strengthens the Church. It only makes things more difficult. And yes, I'm partisan. And I'm not ashamed to be a partisan for Jesus Christ and the Orthodox Church. The immigrants are certainly partisan for their interests. Virtually every immigrant group has some organization that lobbies to keep immigration open to their group and to obtain government benefits. They don't hesitate to look out for their interests.

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« Reply #111 on: May 09, 2004, 11:43:37 AM »

From a different type of Orthodox perspective, all the Orthodox in America are the result of immigration of one type or another; Orthodoxy isn't the native religion in the New World as it is in countries of the Old.  I understand the point you are making, but cannot bring myself to say "I'm OK, but X is not", when we are on an equal footing, being of religions which, however different from each other, are still completely different from the majority religion here.  

What Christian traditions do we have left in America, btw?  As far as I'm concerned, this stopped being a Christian nation a long time ago.  

Don't forget the converts Mor.  Or would that count as immigration from Heterodox religions?

Agree completely.  America stopped being a Christian Nation in its politcs over 100 years ago and in its population within the last 50 years.  Faith just doesn't exist anymore here.

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« Reply #112 on: May 09, 2004, 04:20:55 PM »

Dear Joe,

I'm not forgetting the converts.  But the fact remains that the converts would not have converted if they didn't know about the Orthodox Church, and the Orthodox Church was brought here primarily by immigrants.  So, even if the converts are "native" to the US, they (in an indirect sense), and their Churches (in a more direct sense) are the result of the arrival of Orthodox peoples to this country.
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« Reply #113 on: May 09, 2004, 04:27:07 PM »

ah I see your logic.  Thank God for those immigrants who brought the true faith to these shores.

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« Reply #114 on: May 13, 2004, 07:36:56 PM »

Don't forget the converts Mor.  Or would that count as immigration from Heterodox religions?

Agree completely.  America stopped being a Christian Nation in its politcs over 100 years ago and in its population within the last 50 years.  Faith just doesn't exist anymore here.

Joe Zollars

You have got to be very careful with that last statement of yours. your living in a protestant nation that has a sizable christian following and yes they are christians.
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« Reply #115 on: May 14, 2004, 06:34:26 AM »

"You have got to be very careful with that last statement of yours. your living in a protestant nation that has a sizable christian following and yes they are christians."

In your opinion, but not in mine.  If you are not a part of the Body of Christ, you are not a Christian, regardless of whether you call yourself one or think you are one.  You can believe what you want to believe, but unless you are grafted onto the Body, you are not living in Christ, regardless of the human ideas you might believe about Him.
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« Reply #116 on: May 14, 2004, 06:50:17 AM »

"You have got to be very careful with that last statement of yours. your living in a protestant nation that has a sizable christian following and yes they are christians."

In your opinion, but not in mine.  If you are not a part of the Body of Christ, you are not a Christian, regardless of whether you call yourself one or think you are one.  You can believe what you want to believe, but unless you are grafted onto the Body, you are not living in Christ, regardless of the human ideas you might believe about Him.

Your opinion doesn't matter, because you don't have control over the word "Christian".
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« Reply #117 on: May 14, 2004, 07:07:44 AM »

"You have got to be very careful with that last statement of yours. your living in a protestant nation that has a sizable christian following and yes they are christians."

In your opinion, but not in mine.  If you are not a part of the Body of Christ, you are not a Christian, regardless of whether you call yourself one or think you are one.  You can believe what you want to believe, but unless you are grafted onto the Body, you are not living in Christ, regardless of the human ideas you might believe about Him.

well Brendan.. this is their country ( and orthodoxy is a guest religion here and not native to this land) and they ( protestants) are christians because they follow christ. They might not be part of your church but nevertheless they are christian.

So would it be fair of me to say that you are not christian regardless of wheter you call yourself one or think that you are not.

This would also be like the catholic church in Russia or any other predominately orthodox country saying that those orthodox are not christian....plus add the rest of your statement here.

You contradict the bible with that statement of yours. Remember what saint Paul said about those community that were giving problems? To Saint Paul they were believers even though they were in there present state.
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« Reply #118 on: May 14, 2004, 07:34:55 AM »

well Brendan.. this is their country ( and orthodoxy is a guest religion here and not native to this land) and they

In what way is Protestantism native to the US in a way that excludes Orthodoxy or RCsm from being native?

Were the Native Americans Protestant?

If not then all traditions of Christianity have been brought over.

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« Reply #119 on: May 14, 2004, 09:57:47 AM »

Your opinion doesn't matter, because you don't have control over the word "Christian".


Mine matters as much as yours does, by the way, Keble.  As stated, it is "my opinion", nothing more, nothing less.

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« Reply #120 on: May 14, 2004, 10:33:17 AM »

" this is their country ( and orthodoxy is a guest religion here and not native to this land)"

As Peter has pointed out, Protestantism is not "native", but imported as well, but I will grant that Protestantism is the principal religion in the USA at the present time.

"they ( protestants) are christians because they follow christ"

In my opinion, to be Christian is to be a part of the Body of Christ.  Of course, Protestants can call themselves Christians if they like (that self-definition is not binding at all on me or anyone else), but that does not make them Christian.  To be Christian, in my opinion, is to live "in Christ", and that is only possible if you are of His Body.  Therefore in my opinion, Protestants are not properly regarded as "Christian", but are properly regarded as self-proclaimed followers of Christ who belong to the religion called "Protestantism".

"catholic church in Russia or any other predominately orthodox country saying that those orthodox are not christian"

Except that the Catholic Church affirms, in its own ecclesiology, that the Orthodox are true churches, and that therefore Orthodox are "in" the Body of Christ.  Orthodox say no such thing about non-Orthodox.

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« Reply #121 on: May 14, 2004, 11:09:08 AM »

I have heard ROCOR priests say that members of other communities ARE Christians.

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« Reply #122 on: May 14, 2004, 11:11:58 AM »

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Orthodox say no such thing about non-Orthodox.

Exactly.  I've always labored under the impression that Orthodoxy doesn't say anything either way about the non-Orthodox.
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« Reply #123 on: May 14, 2004, 11:15:43 AM »

Correct, which is why I have been careful to state that this is "my opinion".  As an Orthodox I am allowed that opinion, because the Orthodox Church doesn't say anything dogmatically about those who are outside of her visible communion.
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« Reply #124 on: May 14, 2004, 11:21:56 AM »

Fair enough.
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« Reply #125 on: May 14, 2004, 11:25:10 AM »

Mine matters as much as yours does, by the way, Keble.  As stated, it is "my opinion", nothing more, nothing less.

Well, my opinion doesn't matter either; what matters is the common usage of the word, and in common usage Protestants and even JWs and Mormons are Christians.
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« Reply #126 on: May 14, 2004, 11:29:55 AM »

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...JWs and Mormons are Christians

This I have a problem with.  The same goes for calling non-Trinitarian Pentecostals Christians.

Christian = Trinitarian.  We follow Christ because He is God and He is God because He is a person of the Holy Trinity.  

JWs, Mormons, and Pentecostal non-Trinitarian types are not Christians.  I don't enjoy labelling at all, but I can't budge on this one.

Then again, just my opinion! Smiley
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« Reply #127 on: May 14, 2004, 11:33:23 AM »

Don't forget that the first Christians to make it to the Upper West Coast were Russian Orthodox.  There is now a strong Orthodox Native population (all under the OCA I believe).  Also Orthodoxy was spread amoung many Native tribes north of the San Francisco Bay Area.  (http://www.mcn.org/1/rrparks/fortross/)  It's a pretty cool place to visit.  Since there were no Spanish, American, yada yada there, I guess we can say Orthodoxy is the original Christian religion of the NorthWest.  
& in America, Native Americans quite willingly converted to Orthodoxy.  The one's that didn't, Russians didn't bother.  Missionaries were sent, but never did violence accompany their preaching.  Unlike the Spanish Catholics, or American Protastants.  One case in Monterey, CA, the Catholic priests tried to convert a young man into a Catholic.  He kept trying to convince them that he already was Christian, having been baptised Orthodox some time ago.  He refused to become Catholic, and was later imprisoned, tortured, and killed.  
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« Reply #128 on: May 14, 2004, 11:35:44 AM »

I am happy to call a wide variety of faithful people 'Christians' and mean it.

In our pluralistic times we cannot easily put the genie of Protestant denominationalism back in the bottle.

I can happily however describe many people as Christians who are all united by a sincere desire to follow Christ, who have not positively and explicitly embraced heresy, who shame me by their commitment.

These people are all perhaps in the category of 'catechumens' outside the Church. But just as I would not call a catechumen a 'pagan' or 'heathen' because they are on the way. So I will not dismiss non-Orthodox as non-Christian, they are indeed in the most part seekers after Christ.

That doesn't mean I cannot criticise doctrinal systems as heretical, but I will not easily condemn simple believers, born and brought up without any knowledge of Orthodoxy. To deny them the title of Christian seems to me to do that. Deny their organisations the name of Church by all means. I prefer speaking of communities rather than Churches.
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« Reply #129 on: May 14, 2004, 11:43:35 AM »

[quote author=Brendan03
Except that the Catholic Church affirms, in its own ecclesiology, that the Orthodox are true churches, and that therefore Orthodox are "in" the Body of Christ.  Orthodox say no such thing about non-Orthodox.

Brendan

Quote

I would bet that you are in the minority in regards of seeing non orthodox as not chritians.  This line of thought also contradicts scriptures. In church history we always see references to heretodox/orthodox christians. A christian is anyone that believes that jesus  is the son of god...died and rose from the dead.
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« Reply #130 on: May 14, 2004, 11:49:10 AM »

I look at it this way, in my own opinion.  If you take a picture and use photoshop to deit it, there comes a time when it has become so distorted it is no longer recognizable as the original picture.  Protestants have done this.  Therefore, they have so distorted Christ, it can be thought that they no longer woriship the same God.  Just like Mohamadeans.

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« Reply #131 on: May 14, 2004, 12:00:53 PM »

"I would bet that you are in the minority in regards of seeing non orthodox as not chritians."

Where did I say that?  I said that "Protestants" were not "Christian" in my personal opinion, as I understand Christian to mean properly (not what it means in common parlance).  I didn't say anything at all about other non-Orthodox.

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« Reply #132 on: May 14, 2004, 12:03:55 PM »

Well, my opinion doesn't matter either; what matters is the common usage of the word, and in common usage Protestants and even JWs and Mormons are Christians.


Point taken, but we're entitled to our own, corrected, views of things as well, apart from the common parlance.  Common parlance says that the Ecumenical Patriarch is the Orthodox Pope, and that's how many people around the world view it, even if its rather wrong.

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« Reply #133 on: May 14, 2004, 12:09:12 PM »


That doesn't mean I cannot criticise doctrinal systems as heretical, but I will not easily condemn simple believers, born and brought up without any knowledge of Orthodoxy. To deny them the title of Christian seems to me to do that.

No, I don't think so.  Not everyone outside the visible confines of the "Church" is condemned.  Everything is possible with God.  But we can still distinguish, I think, between who are apparently "Christians" and those who are simply well-intentioned followers of Christ, without implying that one is condemned while the other is not.  Those who are visibly apparently Christian may nevertheless have fallen away from communion with the Body, as we know.

I honestly don't understand the difficulty here.  Evangelical Protestants, for example, take a very hard line on this themselves, and would say that you and I are simply "not saved".  In my personal opinion, they are not "in Christ" visibly and so are not properly termed "Christian", although they are followers of Christ, or claim to be.  They are not per se condemned as persons because of that, for anything is possible with God, and the Holy Spirit may still yet work in inauspicious circumstances.

Brendan
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« Reply #134 on: May 14, 2004, 12:13:46 PM »

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I can happily however describe many people as Christians who are all united by a sincere desire to follow Christ, who have not positively and explicitly embraced heresy, who shame me by their commitment.

I think along these same lines. I can't deny as a former protestant all the great works I was witness to. To say that Christ doesn't work in the lives of the non orthodox is very silly.
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