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Author Topic: are muslims terrorists?!  (Read 44690 times) Average Rating: 0
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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #180 on: May 15, 2004, 02:54:06 PM »

I have not told you my religious background at all. YOu are just making assumptions.  From appearances, you do that quite frequently.

Joe Zollars

You just keep changing your stories that it is quite difficult to follow.
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« Reply #181 on: May 15, 2004, 03:15:32 PM »

Most of new world is roman catholic from north america to the south. and do you know why?

Because the Evil One found your church easily manipulated and therefore an effective tool in his quest to kill and make life generally miserable for all but his most dedicated fools?

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« Reply #182 on: May 15, 2004, 03:20:01 PM »

No.. she does not know what she is talking about and that includes you alot of the time. and that is not insulting anyone.

see the anti catholics accusse us catholics of having fancy decorated churches...too ornate.. too rich for a christian church while another group accusse us of having tacky churches.  Why oh why do our daugthers hate us so.

BTW, I thought that you were never catholic? what gives...changed your story again. serioulsy.. you have got to keep track of your stories.

Yes people don't be afraid of the troll.


Huh.   Huh

I wrote that I was a RC.  

You're being way too defensive here if you object to people saying that RC churches have tacky music and tacky felt banners.  First, I'm RC.  Second, everybody knows we have tacky felt banners and tacky/bad music at our Masses.  It's not like it's debated.  In fact, it's a pretty common complaint made by RCs.  

BTW, what do you mean by "our daughters?"  These people are Orthodox and are therefore not "our daughters."  We RCs view the Orthodox as our "brothers."  

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« Reply #183 on: May 15, 2004, 03:24:52 PM »

Huh.   Huh

I wrote that I was a RC.  

You're being way too defensive here if you object to people saying that RC churches have tacky music and tacky felt banners.  First, I'm RC.  Second, everybody knows we have tacky felt banners and tacky/bad music at our Masses.  It's not like it's debated.  In fact, it's a pretty common complaint made by RCs.  

BTW, what do you mean by "our daughters?"  These people are Orthodox and are therefore not "our daughters."  We RCs view the Orthodox as our "brothers."  



jennifer,

I don't know what type of catholic churches you have been too but perhaps we come from two different worlds. Cause the churches that I have attended where far from being tacky.  I would say that the churches I have been to were extremely ornate and all the music where all classical latin chants.
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« Reply #184 on: May 15, 2004, 03:29:13 PM »

jennifer,

I don't know what type of catholic churches you have been too but perhaps we come from two different worlds.

That's why it is always helpful if one lists their geographical location in their Profile.
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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #185 on: May 15, 2004, 03:34:41 PM »

Because the Evil One found your church easily manipulated and therefore an effective tool in his quest to kill and make life generally miserable for all but his most dedicated fools?



back at you buddy.

Looks who is talking about being manipulated by the evil one.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2004, 03:35:49 PM by romanbyzantium » Logged
Jennifer
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« Reply #186 on: May 15, 2004, 03:36:51 PM »

jennifer,

I don't know what type of catholic churches you have been too but perhaps we come from two different worlds. Cause the churches that I have attended where far from being tacky.  I would say that the churches I have been to were extremely ornate and all the music where all classical latin chants.

Are you from the United States?  I'd like to know where all the churches have classical latin chants.  You won't find that in many places in the US.  Even the trad churches don't have much chant.  They usually serve low Masses.  

It doesn't help your cause to ignore the problems in the RC.  I sometimes think that RC apologists try to whitewash the myriad of problems in the RC because they think it helps their argument.  However, it's better to be up front about the problems.  And unfortunately the state of Roman Catholicism in the US is dismal.  Our people are very poorly catechized.  Our priests can't preach to save their lives (speaking generally of course).  Almost all of the churches built in the last 50 years are god-awful messes.  

I was driving around the surburbs of a large northern city with a heavy ethnic RC population recently and I could tell the RC parishes from down the street.  They were always these huge modernist looking hideously ugly buildings.  They looked like school cafeterias.
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« Reply #187 on: May 15, 2004, 03:39:24 PM »

I was driving around the surburbs of a large northern city with a heavy ethnic RC population recently...

See. Now why wouldn't you just SAY which large northern city?
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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #188 on: May 15, 2004, 03:50:20 PM »

Are you from the United States?  I'd like to know where all the churches have classical latin chants.  You won't find that in many places in the US.  Even the trad churches don't have much chant.  They usually serve low Masses.  

It doesn't help your cause to ignore the problems in the RC.  I sometimes think that RC apologists try to whitewash the myriad of problems in the RC because they think it helps their argument.  However, it's better to be up front about the problems.  And unfortunately the state of Roman Catholicism in the US is dismal.  Our people are very poorly catechized.  Our priests can't preach to save their lives (speaking generally of course).  Almost all of the churches built in the last 50 years are god-awful messes.  

I was driving around the surburbs of a large northern city with a heavy ethnic RC population recently and I could tell the RC parishes from down the street.  They were always these huge modernist looking hideously ugly buildings.  They looked like school cafeterias.  

I am from euorpe but I live in NYC.  and you claim to be roman catholic.. forgive me but your tone doesn't seem like it.

what are you talking about dismal. have you been to all catholic parishes to make those  kind of blanket statements. you are ready for conversion are you not. your getting the hang of it are not you. shameful act.
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« Reply #189 on: May 15, 2004, 03:54:47 PM »

See. Now why wouldn't you just SAY which large northern city?

A lady reveals nothing... Wink
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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #190 on: May 15, 2004, 03:56:22 PM »

A lady reveals nothing... Wink

are you thinking of converting to orthodoxy?
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« Reply #191 on: May 15, 2004, 03:58:59 PM »

I am from euorpe but I live in NYC.  and you claim to be roman catholic.. forgive me but your tone doesn't seem like it.

what are you talking about dismal. have you been to all catholic parishes to make those  kind of blanket statements. you are ready for conversion are you not. your getting the hang of it are not you. shameful act.

Now you're just being silly.  All traditional/conservative RCs make the same criticisms.  

You say you live in NYC...I've spent some time in NYC myself and I can only think of one parish that has classical latin chant, St. Agnes.  Even that conservative church on Park Avenue with Fr. Rutler doesn't always have latin chant.  

BTW, I'm not "ready for conversion."  I'm staying RC.  

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« Reply #192 on: May 16, 2004, 12:57:57 AM »

RB, my story has not changed.  Any one of a thousand members (well not really sicne there are only slightly more than 500) could tell you that my story has indeed not changed over the past several years I have known them other than the natural progression with time.  You have made assumptions, yes assumptions, about my background that you have no need to make.  Quite frankly my background is none of your business.  NOr are the personal thoughts and feelings of other members of this forum any of your business.  

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« Reply #193 on: May 16, 2004, 04:52:04 PM »

Are you interested in Western Rite Orthodoxy, Ebor?

I am aware of Western Rite. I have been to a Western Rite parish some time ago. I know that some EO look on WR as "Not *really* Orthodox" since it isn't Byzantine.  That others have the view that it's a way of easing people into EO until they can handle the "Real Thing" (that is, Byzantine ways).  Other views are that it's the equivalent of the "Unia"/Byzantine Catholics or it's "Bringing the West back to EO".  Such parishes are few and far between and the only jurisdictions that I'm aware of having them are the Antiochians and the ROCOR (one place in New England iirc)

Ebor
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« Reply #194 on: May 16, 2004, 04:56:10 PM »

jennifer,

I don't know what type of catholic churches you have been too but perhaps we come from two different worlds. Cause the churches that I have attended where far from being tacky.  I would say that the churches I have been to were extremely ornate and all the music where all classical latin chants.

Perhaps you have been fortunate in what parishes you have attended.  RC services that I have attended have generally been in line with what Jennifer has described, though at least at the weddings people haven't attended wearing shorts and t-shirts that I've seen.

Ebor
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« Reply #195 on: May 16, 2004, 05:35:42 PM »

jennifer,

I don't know what type of catholic churches you have been too but perhaps we come from two different worlds. Cause the churches that I have attended where far from being tacky.  I would say that the churches I have been to were extremely ornate and all the music where all classical latin chants.

RB,

Unless you attend Traditional Latin Mass chapels, then we do come from two totally different worlds! The only NO Mass I have seen down wonderfuly and full of beauty was at a huge Cathedral that hadn't suffered a great deal from the post-Vat II rennovations. The setting can make any Mass seem beautiful, but in my expirence the NO mass is only beautiful if its surrounded by beauty.
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« Reply #196 on: May 16, 2004, 06:07:34 PM »

RB,

Unless you attend Traditional Latin Mass chapels, then we do come from two totally different worlds! The only NO Mass I have seen down wonderfuly and full of beauty was at a huge Cathedral that hadn't suffered a great deal from the post-Vat II rennovations. The setting can make any Mass seem beautiful, but in my expirence the NO mass is only beautiful if its surrounded by beauty.

The NO mass that I have attended were done beautifully with Latin and all. The churches were beautiful, almost european in style. Then there have been NO mass was a disgrace with all the innovations that occurred to the priests/bishops of the parish.

It seems to me that she has visited one of those modernist influenced churches.

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« Reply #197 on: May 16, 2004, 06:17:46 PM »

Dear RB,

Where do you go to Mass?  I am in Westchester county, and have been to Mass in many parishes in this state (NY), including NYC.  I have never once seen any Latin or Gregorian chant used in any church on a regular basis except:

Saint Agnes, Manhattan (already mentioned)
Saint Mary's, Albany (12pm NO in Latin)
Ss. Peter and Paul, Troy (Indult Mass)

I want to know where in NY/NYC you go to church where the Masses are in Latin or incorporate a good amount of Latin and use Gregorian chant; I want to visit.
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« Reply #198 on: May 16, 2004, 06:32:22 PM »

Dear RB,

Where do you go to Mass?  I am in Westchester county, and have been to Mass in many parishes in this state (NY), including NYC.  I have never once seen any Latin or Gregorian chant used in any church on a regular basis except:

Saint Agnes, Manhattan (already mentioned)
Saint Mary's, Albany (12pm NO in Latin)
Ss. Peter and Paul, Troy (Indult Mass)

I want to know where in NY/NYC you go to church where the Masses are in Latin or incorporate a good amount of Latin and use Gregorian chant; I want to visit.  

I go to saint Agnes NYC Traditional latin mass. and Opus Dei chapels NYC and Father Rutlers church on Park avenue. Extremely orthodox catholic priests.

Also, if you speak spanish try to visit spanish parishes especially Saint Bartholemew and Saint Joan of Arc both in Queens, NY.

Also, once every month I am in scranton PA and I attend St. Michael's Parish.
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« Reply #199 on: May 16, 2004, 06:47:36 PM »

A NO Mass can seem very beautiful if it takes place in a chruch built before the pot-Vat II refroms. However, what is interesting is that a Tridentine Mass is always beautiful, no matter where it is....lol but thats just my opinion.

I have been to a NO in Latin several times, but have yet to find a NO parish that uses Gregorian Chant every Sunday.
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« Reply #200 on: May 16, 2004, 06:49:04 PM »

Well, New York City and Scranton don't make up the sum of RC in the US.  Not by a long chalk. So you can hardly say, RB, that your experiences are the norm of RC liturgics in the US.  You have a pretty small sample size.

Ebor
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« Reply #201 on: May 16, 2004, 06:53:43 PM »

Well, New York City and Scranton don't make up the sum of RC in the US.  Not by a long chalk. So you can hardly say, RB, that your experiences are the norm of RC liturgics in the US.  You have a pretty small sample size.

Ebor

well this is my world. Not to mention when I go to europe 3 months out the year the mass is said in latin. A small sample that could be multiplied over and over again. This is a very big country with a substantial population not touched by modernism.

But to say that ALL churches are like the way jennifer said is just not true. Like I said we come from very two different world.
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« Reply #202 on: May 16, 2004, 07:02:26 PM »

All I know is that I am sure to find a wonderful, orthodox, and beautiful liturgy every time I attend any traditional Latin Mass chapel in the world.
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« Reply #203 on: May 16, 2004, 07:05:12 PM »

All I know is that I am sure to find a wonderful, orthodox, and beautiful liturgy every time I attend any traditional Latin Mass chapel in the world.

Me too. let me ask you a question.

If they wanted to say the mass in the vernacular, why didn't they just translate the trindentine mass into the language of the host country?   why update it or create a new mass incorporating latin and vernacular.
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« Reply #204 on: May 16, 2004, 07:12:38 PM »

Me too. let me ask you a question.

If they wanted to say the mass in the vernacular, why didn't they just translate the trindentine mass into the language of the host country?   why update it or create a new mass incorporating latin and vernacular.

I have no problem with the Tridentine Mass in the vernacular. I wish they would have done this, but instead a new Mass was invented with only 17% of the orginal prayers remaining. It is truly sad that such a beautiful Mass was chucked out the window and replaced with the missal of 69/70.
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« Reply #205 on: May 16, 2004, 07:14:53 PM »

I have no problem with the Tridentine Mass in the vernacular. I wish they would have done this, but instead a new Mass was invented with only 17% of the orginal prayers remaining. It is truly sad that such a beautiful Mass was chucked out the window and replaced with the missal of 69/70.

BUt what was the purpose? This is what I don't get!

and why was the TradMass forbidden to be said? well, that is if it was forbidden.
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« Reply #206 on: May 16, 2004, 07:17:20 PM »


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BUt what was the purpose? This is what I don't get!

I don't get it either.

Quote
and why was the TradMass forbidden to be said? well, that is if it was forbidden.

The Tridentine Mass was *not* forbidden, in fact it can *not* be forbidden.
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« Reply #207 on: May 16, 2004, 07:46:12 PM »

Somehow Al-Qaeda and Te Deum don't mix well, so here is a thread for this topic.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php?board=7;action=display;threadid=3460
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« Reply #208 on: May 16, 2004, 07:58:19 PM »

well this is my world. Not to mention when I go to europe 3 months out the year the mass is said in latin. A small sample that could be multiplied over and over again. This is a very big country with a substantial population not touched by modernism.

But to say that ALL churches are like the way jennifer said is just not true. Like I said we come from very two different world.

I didn't write that "all" churches were that way.  Although I'd say the majority of American RC parishes are the way I've described them.  

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« Reply #209 on: May 16, 2004, 10:07:08 PM »

I go to saint Agnes NYC Traditional latin mass. and Opus Dei chapels NYC and Father Rutlers church on Park avenue. Extremely orthodox catholic priests.

Also, if you speak spanish try to visit spanish parishes especially Saint Bartholemew and Saint Joan of Arc both in Queens, NY.

Also, once every month I am in scranton PA and I attend St. Michael's Parish.


Perhaps, but in my experience as being Roman Catholic for 30+ years these kinds of communities represent less than 10%, perhaps less than 5%, of non-Hispanic Catholicism in the USA, and so in my experience, Jennifer's statements seem to represent more accurately the big picture, with these handful of places really being the exception that proves the rule.
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« Reply #210 on: August 20, 2006, 06:06:55 AM »

If you'd like to know the history of Islamic terrorism, look no further than the persecution of Orthodox Christians in now Islamic countries. I am convinced that Islam, in taking over and destroying half the Christian world, is nothing more and nothing less than pure evil.

Peace.
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« Reply #211 on: August 20, 2006, 06:24:49 AM »

A plague to be sure, but not all muslims are terrorists though many terrorists may be muslim. Of course to their warped value system, they are not.
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« Reply #212 on: August 20, 2006, 06:40:58 AM »

Just a question. Who are the people who are killing Serbs, burning churches and monasteries in Serbia, and uninating on the ruins?  Ethnic Albanians.  And what religion are ethnic Albanians, by and large?
Let's just look at the facts.

Albanians are among the least devout of all Muslim nations in the world. I'd be more likely to blame Kosovo troubles on ethnolinguistic misunderstandings than on some pure ideal of jihad.
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« Reply #213 on: August 20, 2006, 07:36:17 AM »

Albanians are among the least devout of all Muslim nations in the world. I'd be more likely to blame Kosovo troubles on ethnolinguistic misunderstandings than on some pure ideal of jihad.

Maybe; but a volatile mixture of these two factors is more likely the cause to me.
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« Reply #214 on: August 20, 2006, 12:51:28 PM »

Quote
I am convinced that Islam, in taking over and destroying half the Christian world, is nothing more and nothing less than pure evil.

Well since we're throwing out opinions, here's mine. I often wonder what makes one group excel, while another group lags behind. The non-Christian peoples of the Middle and Near East once had societies which were vastly superior to those in Western Europe, and easily matched the Near Eastern Christian cultures. Eventually, Europe caught up, and then shot past them like a bullet. What happened? Why were some people stuck in the stone age into the 18th, 19th, even 20th century? How could the Polynesians accomplish something as amazing as getting all the way down to New Zealand, and then remain in the stone age until Europeans started showing up eight centuries later? How is it that life began in Africa, and yet many tens of thousands (and possibly a couple hundred thousand) year later, Africa was still divided up into unsophisticated tribal cultures, willing to capture each other and commit ceremonial murders, or sell the prisoners into slavery. How did the Incans progress culturally as far as they did, and then decide to commit human sacrifices regularly?

I would agree with the last two posters, and so I would say that religion (whether Muslim or otherwise) is rarely the direct and single cause of "evil" activity. Different people just develop in different ways. Religion often gives people an excuse to act a certain way, but that doesn't mean that the religion was the primary cause of the action, or that the religion had any effect, for that matter. Clearly the Quran is much more militant than, say, the New Testament. However, I do not think it is so clearly more militant than, say, the Byzantine empire at times, or the Old Testament. Christians always seem to find a way to justify what Justinian did, or what Joshua did. But what Muhammed does is "pure evil". And the religion of Justinian and Joshua is sacred, it could never even so much as be questioned. But the religion of Muhammed, well we can dismiss it outright without even having tried to understand it. (I realise that some people have studied it, but the overwhelming majority are just going on the 20 second sound bites they hear on the news, what their equally uninformed friends say, etc.)
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« Reply #215 on: August 20, 2006, 02:30:27 PM »

Well since we're throwing out opinions, here's mine. I often wonder what makes one group excel, while another group lags behind. The non-Christian peoples of the Middle and Near East once had societies which were vastly superior to those in Western Europe, and easily matched the Near Eastern Christian cultures. Eventually, Europe caught up, and then shot past them like a bullet. What happened? Why were some people stuck in the stone age into the 18th, 19th, even 20th century? How could the Polynesians accomplish something as amazing as getting all the way down to New Zealand, and then remain in the stone age until Europeans started showing up eight centuries later? How is it that life began in Africa, and yet many tens of thousands (and possibly a couple hundred thousand) year later, Africa was still divided up into unsophisticated tribal cultures, willing to capture each other and commit ceremonial murders, or sell the prisoners into slavery. How did the Incans progress culturally as far as they did, and then decide to commit human sacrifices regularly?

My theory, as well as the theory I have heard most often put forward is influences of climate and geography, basically, food has to be scarce enough to cause the culture to pursue domestication of animals and cultivation of crops, yet the geographic (and geological) conditions have to be right to allow this. Where are these conditions seen throughout most the world? In a narrow strip north of the Equator, from Japan to North Africa, and then in South American and Mexico. Basically, necessity is the mother of invention.

As far as the advancemnets of the non-Christian people of the Middle and Near East, they were advancements of the Persian empire maintained by conquered Persian nobles, anything good in the Islamic Cultures was stolen from the Persians and Romans. The moslems were and remain a backwards and barbaric people, unable to create anything good only able to steal it from others; and in time they manage to corrupt even that which they stole, the only good the moslems ever did for Persia was spread her culture, yet in a matter of mere centuries the Glory of Persia would fade under the influence of the Islamic Hoards to the point where even the remnants can no longer be seen today.

As far as human sacrifices, I dont necessicarially view them barbaric and demonstrating the backwardsness of a culture. The Carthaginians practiced human sacrifice on their youth, and this act was loudly condemned by the moral Romans and even decadent Greeks as barbaric and immoral. However, Greece and Rome practiced exposure of infants, and defence of this act can even be found in some philosophers (basicially the argument goes that the evil of killing a human is that you kill a reasonable being and since an infant or very young child has not yet achieved the full use of his or her reason, the killing of this infant is not on par with the killing of a human being); to this very day the most civilized of countries practice an equivalent, abortion. Human sacrifice, or at least human sacrifice of infants (human sacrifice of defeated enemies does serve a different purpose, one that we thankfully abandoned about 500 years ago), serves the same purpose as exposure or abortion, population control; and unlike today when population control is generally used as a matter of convenience (China's population control, possibly, being a notable exception) in ancient societies it was often a matter of life or death, Children required resources, if resources were already scarse it's highly unlikely the child would survive anyway and an attempt to save them would only take resources from others, thus causing more death and suffering. Thus when the famine hits, you step up the human sacrifieces, and it actually does do some good; eventually this ancient necessity was cloaked in religious and ceremonial significance to make it easier. Pure pragmatism, again, necessity is the mother of invention.

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I would agree with the last two posters, and so I would say that religion (whether Muslim or otherwise) is rarely the direct and single cause of "evil" activity. Different people just develop in different ways. Religion often gives people an excuse to act a certain way, but that doesn't mean that the religion was the primary cause of the action, or that the religion had any effect, for that matter.

So it's really the Arab and Turkish races that are evil, and Islam is just a reflection of that? Or, at least, the Arab and Turkish cultures that are Evil? You may be right, it is notable that the overwhelming majority of significant advancements in the last 2500 years have come from Indo-European civilization. But, in the end, Religion and Culture have become so linked that I do not believe it is necessary to make this distinction. To adopt another's religion is to adopt their culture. We're still at the same point, Islam and the Culture that surrounds it is evil.

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Clearly the Quran is much more militant than, say, the New Testament. However, I do not think it is so clearly more militant than, say, the Byzantine empire at times, or the Old Testament. Christians always seem to find a way to justify what Justinian did, or what Joshua did.

What about Justinian? He developed a code of laws that survive as the basis for the legals system of the Majority of the World today. He commissioned advancements in Architecture that would serve as the basis for the next thousand years of European Culture. Are you refering to the execution of the traitors in the hippodrome? Keep in mind that even to this very day, under the laws of our Republic, the actions of those people, attempting to overthrow the Government, and actually establishing a rival government, would be regarded as treason and even in the United States if you were to try that, every one of those people would technically be liable for a death sentence (we'd try them on conspiracy charges, far easer than trying them for treason proper), though the full sentence would probably only be given to the leaders because of political issues.

Now that I've covered that tangent, back to the issue at hand, but keep in mind, there is a HUGE difference between acting like a 6th century people IN the 6th century, and acting like a 6th century people in the 21st Century.

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But what Muhammed does is "pure evil". And the religion of Justinian and Joshua is sacred, it could never even so much as be questioned. But the religion of Muhammed, well we can dismiss it outright without even having tried to understand it. (I realise that some people have studied it, but the overwhelming majority are just going on the 20 second sound bites they hear on the news, what their equally uninformed friends say, etc.)

Islam can be objectively judged today, one does not have to subjectively submit it to any religion of philosophical system. Christians, Jews, Atheists, Hindus, Buddhists, Animists, Shintoists, Pagans, etc., etc. can all live in harmony with each other, the worst of this group is probably the very small portion of Christians of the evangelical stripe, but the worst they'll do is annoy you and try to convert you, they are not going to strap explosives to their chest and blow themselves up in a Hindu temple. This worst of the 'rest of the world' group doesn't even compare to Islam, Islam is unable to live with anyone. Who ever they live with they show violence towards, be it the Genocide of Christians, blowing themselves up to kill Jews, or destroying Ancient Buddhist religious sites, in all this there is one constant, Islam. And dont tell me about how Christians acted in 1200 AD or how Jews acted in 1500 BC, this is not 1200 AD or 1500 BC, this is the 21st Century, actions that may have been acceptable and commonplace then are not acceptable now. Everyone but Islam has recognized it, thus it can objectively be stated that Islam is evil, and that Islam is a threat...a threat that I have long advocated neutralizing.
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« Reply #216 on: August 20, 2006, 03:40:47 PM »

I agree with you Greekischristian. Look at any land muslims have been able to take for themselves, "Turkey", northern Cyprus, the Middle East. It's always in ruins and on the brink of more death and destruction. I was look at some really old pictures of my mom and my grandparents' families. Some of the pics were from the 60's and I could've sworn that it was Europe and not the Middle East (where they were residing). The streets had big beautiful lamps and shrubery, and the people in the picture were beautiful and had nice clean classy clothes- there were no headscarves or veils covering women's eyes. Then again many Europeans were living in the middle east back then...another interesting pic I saw was of my grandmother's older sister. She was some sort of cadet, but in her hands, she was holding this large Turkish flag! I guess she was forced to do it...Bt back to my point. If you look at the middle east today, it is completely the opposite than the rest of the world. As the rest of the world becomes more open, the middle east becomes more and more closed.

I wonder what it would take to start a Christian revolution, a peaceful one, where Christians regain their sense of awareness of their faith, instead of having to make excuses for everyone elses religion.
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« Reply #217 on: August 20, 2006, 04:40:54 PM »

I agree with you Greekischristian. Look at any land muslims have been able to take for themselves, "Turkey"

Putting "Turkey" in quotes and suggesting the Muslims stole Asia Minor from the Greeks is naive. Even if the Turkic tribes had not converted to Islam, they still would have swept into Anatolia and created a new and distinct nation.
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« Reply #218 on: August 20, 2006, 06:02:38 PM »

But I do have a question for Linus and Nacho.  You both agree that America needs to keep Muslims out of here.  How do you think that can be done?

The Israeli approach could be adapted:

As we read in the review Missioni Consolata of June 1990,
The Israeli High Court of Justice has declared that no-one who believes in Christ, even if he is not baptized, can obtain Israeli citizenship.
On this occasion, the judgment concerned a young Jewish couple, Gary and Shirley Beresford, who had emigrated from Zimbabwe to Israel and "who have been refused citizenship simply for believing in Christ." Their appeal to the High Court of Justice was rejected, the judges having "decided that it was irrelevant that, quite apart from not having been baptized, they were Jews by birth and had declared that they kept all the Jewish traditions" (ibid.). In the same periodical, we learn that the same High Court of Justice confirmed the sentence handed down by an Israeli tribunal against a Jewish soldier, Richard Sorko-Ram, "for having publicly expressed his admiration for the figure of Jesus."


www.sspxasia.com/Documents/SiSiNoNo/2001_July/Dialogue_or_Monologue.htm - 34k
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« Reply #219 on: August 20, 2006, 11:01:20 PM »

Putting "Turkey" in quotes and suggesting the Muslims stole Asia Minor from the Greeks is naive.

No.  It's a matter of historical fact.  The Muslims had always wanted to conquer the entire civilized world.

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Even if the Turkic tribes had not converted to Islam, they still would have swept into Anatolia and created a new and distinct nation.

That's just speculation.  How naive.


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« Reply #220 on: August 21, 2006, 01:15:24 AM »

Right on Theognosis.
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« Reply #221 on: August 21, 2006, 04:29:17 AM »

No.  It's a matter of historical fact.  The Muslims had always wanted to conquer the entire civilized world. ... That's just speculation.  How naive.

It's a matter of historical fact that the Turks were already on their way to Anatolia when they encountered Islam, and Turkic tribes had already swept from the Pacific Ocean to Eastern Europe. Do you think they would have stopped just short of the border had they not become Muslims?
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« Reply #222 on: August 21, 2006, 06:28:45 AM »

It's a matter of historical fact that the Turks were already on their way to Anatolia when they encountered Islam, and Turkic tribes had already swept from the Pacific Ocean to Eastern Europe. Do you think they would have stopped just short of the border had they not become Muslims?

I don't think this is correct. The confederation of the Turkic peoples was divided for a second time into east and west factions in the eigth century. It was when the Islamic Emevi army allied itself with the Western faction against the Chinese in the Battle of Talas in AD751 (and they won) that the western faction adopted Islam, while the eastern faction subsequently collapsed. So Islam was not only a unifying force for the Turkic peoples, but it also meant that they were able to attract allies from other Islamic states. I don't think the Turkic peoples would have been anywhere near as successful militarily had they not adopted Islam.
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« Reply #223 on: August 21, 2006, 07:25:46 AM »

Putting "Turkey" in quotes and suggesting the Muslims stole Asia Minor from the Greeks is naive. Even if the Turkic tribes had not converted to Islam, they still would have swept into Anatolia and created a new and distinct nation.

Yep; from Greeks, Armenians, Laz, Karamanlis, Syrians, and others.

Second of your comments has been adequately dealt with already. Thanks, Theognosis
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« Reply #224 on: August 21, 2006, 12:36:41 PM »

I don't think this is correct. The confederation of the Turkic peoples was divided for a second time into east and west factions in the eigth century. It was when the Islamic Emevi army allied itself with the Western faction against the Chinese in the Battle of Talas in AD751 (and they won) that the western faction adopted Islam, while the eastern faction subsequently collapsed. So Islam was not only a unifying force for the Turkic peoples, but it also meant that they were able to attract allies from other Islamic states. I don't think the Turkic peoples would have been anywhere near as successful militarily had they not adopted Islam.

Even if it is true that the Turks became more powerful from adopting Islam, it doesn't change the fact that they had already begun expansion prior to Islam. How can one blame Islam's values for Turkic expansion if it was there before conversion? There are plenty of good examples of Muslim invasion, that of Asia Minor is too shaky to be useful.

And Αριστοκλής's anti-Turk vitriol here is, as always, just silly. There are numerous populations that have done exactly what the early Turks did in coming upon a native population and making something new out of it, from the Slavs spreading into the Balkans and Central Europe to various Germanic tribes expanding from their central-European Urheimat to the Finns pushing into Sami territory. The only problem with the Turks is that in accepting first Islam then Ataturkism they decided against Christian values.
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