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« Reply #135 on: May 14, 2004, 01:56:00 PM »

They are not per se condemned as persons because of that, for anything is possible with God, and the Holy Spirit may still yet work in inauspicious circumstances.

That's just the same old cop out though. You are saying 'These people are not christians because they are outside the body....oh of course I am not saying you are not a christian, that's up to God.'

Well if it is then don't say 'These people are not Christians'.

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« Reply #136 on: May 14, 2004, 02:56:39 PM »

That's just the same old cop out though. You are saying 'These people are not christians because they are outside the body....oh of course I am not saying you are not a christian, that's up to God.'

Well if it is then don't say 'These people are not Christians'.

Peter

No, Peter, I said that I did not conclude that because they are not apparently Christian, they are therefore condemned, in my opinion.  That's because it is utlimately up to God what happens to these people, but in my opinion they are not apparently Christian.  It leaves open the possibility, which in my opinion we must, that those who are not apparently Christian are nevertheless not necessarily condemned by God ... we simply do not know that, one way or another.  I therefore disagree that "not Christian = ipso facto condemned".

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« Reply #137 on: May 14, 2004, 03:19:41 PM »

But surely if they are not Christian then they are pagans. No different to Hindus, Muslims etc?
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« Reply #138 on: May 14, 2004, 03:35:15 PM »

I would say that in my personal opinion "Protestantism" is a different religion than "Christianity", but that I make no comment on the prospects for salvation of those adherents of the religion known as Protestantism.  Perhaps they are better off than Muslims or Hindus because they claim to be followers of Christ, and perhaps they are not, but that is not mine to judge.
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« Reply #139 on: May 14, 2004, 03:39:28 PM »

But you have already judged, don't you see that?

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« Reply #140 on: May 14, 2004, 03:49:19 PM »

No, I have only done that if "not being apprently Christian = condemned", which I have not done.  I have expressed by personal opinion as to whether such persons are, in my opinion, apparently "Christians", nothing more than that.
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« Reply #141 on: May 14, 2004, 03:52:11 PM »

You've judged because 'not being apparently Christian = not being apparently Christian'.

If I said to someone 'you are not apparently a Christian but I'm not judging you because at the very last God might decide to save you' then I'd expect them to feel judged, unless you said that you also were not apparently a Christian and also needed to rely in the end on God's mercy.

When you place 'them' into a different category to 'us' you have judged.
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« Reply #142 on: May 14, 2004, 04:03:03 PM »

Brendan03, forgive me if I appear to be going on and on. I don't mean to.

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« Reply #143 on: May 14, 2004, 04:21:25 PM »

I dont' think Brendan has judged at all.  He is stating where he feels the boundaries of hte Church to be.  If we cannot say such and such is where the visible Body of Christ ends, than how can we say groups of people such as the gnostics, manichians, or Aryans of old and the more recent groups of Mormons, JWs, and non-trinitarian pentecostals are nto Christian.  If we cannot set limits, we must accept that everyone and anyone who claims to follow christ is a Christian.  Thus there is a sizable group of Hindu's that must by that definition also be qualified as Christians.

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« Reply #144 on: May 14, 2004, 04:25:33 PM »

I think that the Church has always made a distinction between what might be called trinitarian heterodox and non-trinitarian heretics. The Church tradition never lumps all non-Orthodox in together as non-Christians.

It is quite easy to say that a Gnostic is not a Christian or a Mormon, but to say that a Trinitarian, Christ believing person is in the same category as a Gnostic or a Mormon seems to me to be much more than the Fathers ever said.
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« Reply #145 on: May 14, 2004, 04:31:56 PM »

well, I can see what you are saying, but based on my earlier post about the photoshop editing, one has to ask, what Christ are they following, what Trinity do they believe in?  There is a point where their distortion become so bad, it can longer be said to be the same God.

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« Reply #146 on: May 14, 2004, 04:40:23 PM »

I agree, but I do not believe that someone who believes in the Trinity and in the Incarnate Word of God, and the resurrection can be said to worship a different God without some clear evidence.

I don't see how it's our business to be talking like this. It is just more carping, more negativity.

I'd much rather be like St Paul and approach any and all Christians saying 'It is clear that you are a most devout people' and then seek to lead them on from their to the fulness of what I am convinced is the Gospel of Christ.

Approaching people with the attitude that they probably don't worship the true God seems to me to be just an opportunity for pride and even for dismissing the work of the Holy Spirit among people.

It's not an attitude I am happy with at all. Reject the teaching by all means. I believe that my Plymouth Brethren background was filled with a great deal of error. But it is dangerous to reject the faith and commitment and worship of such folk. Better to give thanks to God for what is there and pray that it be fulfilled.

If they worship a different God then they are worshipping demons. I will not, indeed cannot, say that of any of the people I grew up with.

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« Reply #147 on: May 14, 2004, 05:22:08 PM »

well, I can see what you are saying, but based on my earlier post about the photoshop editing, one has to ask, what Christ are they following, what Trinity do they believe in?  There is a point where their distortion become so bad, it can longer be said to be the same God.

Joe Zollars


No, you can't see what he is saying because f your fanaticism.

Really............ How many jesus' do you know that was crucified, rose from the dead and is the son of God.

What is sad is your fanaticism.
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« Reply #148 on: May 14, 2004, 06:56:43 PM »

Quote
I agree, but I do not believe that someone who believes in the Trinity and in the Incarnate Word of God, and the resurrection can be said to worship a different God without some clear evidence
Right on....
 I don't know any former RC or Protestant that would say they worshipped a different God before they found the Orthodox faith.

It's more of a semantics problem & thier scientific existential methods approaching the faith. Once you show them the mind of the early church & how they viewed Scriptures/Tradition the walls come falling down. I don't see the drastic differences others see.
If your talking about JW's/ Mormons & other Non trinitarians, then yea it is much much more difficult for them because they have drastically departed from the Faith.

Most protestants are just plainly ignorant of church history because they never study & look at it. I have talked to many protestants that I know about the issues that divide them from the fullness of apostolic christianity and most of them do see where they are lacking in thier stripped down protestant faith. There really is much more that unites us than divides us to be honest.          
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« Reply #149 on: May 14, 2004, 08:52:17 PM »

I think Brendan (as usual) raises an interesting point.  I wouldn't go as far as he does but I think his opinion is certainly acceptable within Christianity.  

I've written before that authority is the center of christianity (IMHO) and protestants by definition reject that authority.  How do we know who Christ is unless we look to the Church to teach us?  Certainly we can *feel* Christ and can reason His existence but the authority of the Church is what tells us that He's true God and true man.  A man sitting on an island won't 'reason' the orthodox understanding of God.

Therefore I think it's certainly possible (and probably likely) that many protestants do not hold to the 'orthodox' understanding of Christ.  For example, I've read that the doctrinal distinctions between different protestant sects are becoming blurred which I think is natural as protestantism becomes further separated from catholicism.  I think modern believing/practicing protestants and catholics see Christ in very 'unorthodox' ways.  I think that's partially why the Mel Gibson movie was such a success.  Christ 'captivated' the modern American because we'd lost the proper understanding of who He was.  He'd become a guy they'd put on a billboard advertising vegetarism, in short a 'nice' guy with supernatural powers.  

As I said, modern catholics have the same distorted understanding of Christ but at least they are receiving the Eucharist and therefore being joined to Christ sacramentally.  

I also think that modern fundamentalist protestantism (especially the pentecostal strands) has lost its doctrinal underpinnings and therefore many believers are probably not christians in the orthodox sense of the word.  But they're very sincere people who believe strongly in God and they're striving to follow what they think is God's word.  

It's not possible to know who Christ is without the Church so any protestant who is a christian is a catholic even if they don't know it.  They reject the authority of the Church but accept the authority of the Church when they accept the orthodox understanding of Christ.  

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« Reply #150 on: May 14, 2004, 10:16:01 PM »

Most Muslims are not terrorist but most terrorists are Muslims. IMHO.

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« Reply #151 on: May 15, 2004, 04:55:34 AM »

It's not possible to know who Christ is without the Church so any protestant who is a christian is a catholic even if they don't know it.  They reject the authority of the Church but accept the authority of the Church when they accept the orthodox understanding of Christ.  

This is the way I have looked at things. That all those separated visibly from the Orthodox Catholic Church, whatsoever is of the truth in their communities is a witness of the presence of the Holy Spirit as He wills, and is a tenuous bond with the Orthodox Catholic Church.

If they are Christians, and if I am a Christian, then it is because of Christ. But that judges me as well as them.

It is not so much a theoretical distinction which may or may not be of value which I dislike - but it is saying in people's faces 'You don't believe in the same God as us'. If that is so then as an Evangelical I would have been deeply offended and could only consider that I must be accused of worshipping demons.

I know that I do not deserve the name of Christian so how can I spend time insisting that this group and that group are not Christians. On the contrary their lack of knowledge makes them much less liable to condemnation than I am.

I still find speaking the distinction out loud to be condemning, and counter-productive.

Why say it? Who does it help?

If anyone should be judged not a Christian I know that it is ME!

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« Reply #152 on: May 15, 2004, 05:47:51 AM »

I think Brendan (as usual) raises an interesting point.  I wouldn't go as far as he does but I think his opinion is certainly acceptable within Christianity.  

I've written before that authority is the center of christianity (IMHO) and protestants by definition reject that authority.  How do we know who Christ is unless we look to the Church to teach us?  Certainly we can *feel* Christ and can reason His existence but the authority of the Church is what tells us that He's true God and true man.  A man sitting on an island won't 'reason' the orthodox understanding of God.

Therefore I think it's certainly possible (and probably likely) that many protestants do not hold to the 'orthodox' understanding of Christ.  For example, I've read that the doctrinal distinctions between different protestant sects are becoming blurred which I think is natural as protestantism becomes further separated from catholicism.  I think modern believing/practicing protestants and catholics see Christ in very 'unorthodox' ways.  I think that's partially why the Mel Gibson movie was such a success.  Christ 'captivated' the modern American because we'd lost the proper understanding of who He was.  He'd become a guy they'd put on a billboard advertising vegetarism, in short a 'nice' guy with supernatural powers.  

As I said, modern catholics have the same distorted understanding of Christ but at least they are receiving the Eucharist and therefore being joined to Christ sacramentally.  

I also think that modern fundamentalist protestantism (especially the pentecostal strands) has lost its doctrinal underpinnings and therefore many believers are probably not christians in the orthodox sense of the word.  But they're very sincere people who believe strongly in God and they're striving to follow what they think is God's word.  

It's not possible to know who Christ is without the Church so any protestant who is a christian is a catholic even if they don't know it.  They reject the authority of the Church but accept the authority of the Church when they accept the orthodox understanding of Christ.  



Do you know that we catholics say the samething about orthodox. This is so freaky.
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« Reply #153 on: May 15, 2004, 08:56:33 AM »

" this is their country ( and orthodoxy is a guest religion here and not native to this land)"

As Peter has pointed out, Protestantism is not "native", but imported as well, but I will grant that Protestantism is the principal religion in the USA at the present time.



Protestanism is native to america since the founders of this country were protestants. Well, half of this country was catholic with the annexation of mexican/spanish territory.

Orthodoxy is an immigrant religion foreign to the cultural/religious foundation of this country.  


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« Reply #154 on: May 15, 2004, 09:04:59 AM »

In what way is Protestantism native to the US in a way that excludes Orthodoxy or RCsm from being native?

Were the Native Americans Protestant?

If not then all traditions of Christianity have been brought over.

Peter

Well, protestamts where the religious/cultural founders of this country. It is solidly founded on protestant principles. Orthodoxy is an immigrant religion foreign to the mindset of its people.

It is the same way that russia keeps out religion ( catholics and protestants)  that were not supposedly native to russia.
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« Reply #155 on: May 15, 2004, 11:31:00 AM »

Protestanism is native to america since the founders of this country were protestants. Well, half of this country was catholic with the annexation of mexican/spanish territory.

Orthodoxy is an immigrant religion foreign to the cultural/religious foundation of this country.  
And one sixth of the US was Orthodox, prior to it's purchase from Russia.  Hence, there are native Americans who were Orthodox before becoming part of the United States.  One therefore can't say that Orthodoxy is exclusively an immigrant religion in the US.
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« Reply #156 on: May 15, 2004, 12:48:12 PM »

And one sixth of the US was Orthodox, prior to it's purchase from Russia.  Hence, there are native Americans who were Orthodox before becoming part of the United States.  One therefore can't say that Orthodoxy is exclusively an immigrant religion in the US.

and where did you get that number from? orthodoxy is categorically foreign to continental america.

what native american are you talking about?
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« Reply #157 on: May 15, 2004, 12:50:21 PM »

Do you know that we catholics say the samething about orthodox. This is so freaky.

I've often found webpages that read so much alike in claiming their unique position as the Only Church that I've had to check the top to see if they're RC or EO.  Part of why I stay Anglican.

Sorry.

Ebor
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« Reply #158 on: May 15, 2004, 12:54:27 PM »

and where did you get that number from? orthodoxy is categorically foreign to continental america.

what native american are you talking about?

Probably the ones in what is now the state of Alaska.  It was acquired in 1867 for 7 million dollars.  "Seward's Folly" "Seward's Icebox" and "Johnson's Polar Bear Garden."

Ebor
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« Reply #159 on: May 15, 2004, 01:00:28 PM »

I've often found webpages that read so much alike in claiming their unique position as the Only Church that I've had to check the top to see if they're RC or EO.  Part of why I stay Anglican.

Sorry.

Ebor

I, as a catholic,  find it extremely hysterical.  I almost fell of my chair when I heard an orthodox say " Welcome Home and Journey Home" phrases that are used by catholics all the time when refering to protestants/orthodox converts.

You are right that you have to look at the top of web page to see if its catholic or protestants.

btw,  I went to mass last week in a catholic church called Saint Mary's (that's what I thought) and when the priest was done with the mass and everyone was going home....I realised that it was an anglo-catholic church.  I could not believe how catholic it was. people had rosaries, incense, statues of catholic saints, even the alter(sp).

I went to confession the next day (different matter) and I mentioned to my confessor and we starter laughing at the whole incident. he said that anglo-catholic churches are extremely similar and most catholics would even know the difference unless someone told them. he also mentioned that this happened to a group of hispanic catholics that though they were going to a catholic church for mass but in reality where going to an anglican church somewhere in chicago.

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« Reply #160 on: May 15, 2004, 01:03:31 PM »

Roman

Christianity is foreign nowhere.

Go into all the world.

If Orthodoxy is Christianity it belongs everywhere. If Roman Catholicism is Christianity it belongs everywhere.

Otherwise we should send no missionaries anywhere since they are already happy in their native expression of worship.
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« Reply #161 on: May 15, 2004, 01:12:49 PM »

I, as a catholic,  find it extremely hysterical.  I almost fell of my chair when I heard an orthodox say " Welcome Home and Journey Home" phrases that are used by catholics all the time when refering to protestants/orthodox converts.

You are right that you have to look at the top of web page to see if its catholic or protestants.

No, I have to look at the top of the page to see if it's Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox.  Any "Protestant" page claiming to be the "Only Real Church" uses different language and usually within the first 3 paragraphs mentions something about how bad the RCs are.

Quote
btw,  I went to mass last week in a catholic church called Saint Mary's (that's what I thought) and when the priest was done with the mass and everyone was going home....I realised that it was an anglo-catholic church.  I could not believe how catholic it was. people had rosaries, incense, statues of catholic saints, even the alter(sp).

I went to confession the next day (different matter) and I mentioned to my confessor and we starter laughing at the whole incident. he said that anglo-catholic churches are extremely similar and most catholics would even know the difference unless someone told them. he also mentioned that this happened to a group of hispanic catholics that though they were going to a catholic church for mass but in reality where going to an anglican church somewhere in chicago.

Of course, being an Anglican, I'd say that the Anglo-Catholic Church had statues of *Christian* saints (We have a kalendar in our prayer book that lists many saints both ancient and more recent).  Many of our churchs have a saint's name, or a feast day such as "Ascension and Saint Agnes" (in Washington D.C.)

I'd know the difference between being in an Anglo-Catholic parish and a Roman Catholic one, at least in the US, because from my experiences the Anglicans actually have the congregation participating in singing the hymns and the service amoung other things.  

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« Reply #162 on: May 15, 2004, 01:16:34 PM »

Probably the ones in what is now the state of Alaska.  It was acquired in 1867 for 7 million dollars.  "Seward's Folly" "Seward's Icebox" and "Johnson's Polar Bear Garden."

Ebor
Alaska contains one sixth of the land area of the United States, and is as much a state as any other, but with an Orthodox heritage dating from Russian missionaries to that part of North America.  Hence, Orthodoxy is not foreign to the United States as Alaska had a significant Orthodox population pre-dating it's becoming part of the US.
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« Reply #163 on: May 15, 2004, 01:20:01 PM »

I apologize for being grouchy. It's been a long hard week and it's not over yet. But reading a thread that had some opinion that I am not a Christian (in their opinion) because I'm not EO has rankled.  I shouldn't have read this at this time.

One personal note:  For all the "Come Home" and "Welcome Home" language from the RCs and the EOs, it may work that way for some people but we're not all alike.

 If I should ever find the necessity to become one or the other it would not be "Coming Home" to me    I have never lived there.

It would be an "Exile".  

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« Reply #164 on: May 15, 2004, 01:22:05 PM »

Are you interested in Western Rite Orthodoxy, Ebor?
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« Reply #165 on: May 15, 2004, 01:26:58 PM »

Alaska contains one sixth of the land area of the United States, and is as much a state as any other, but with an Orthodox heritage dating from Russian missionaries to that part of North America.  Hence, Orthodoxy is not foreign to the United States as Alaska had a significant Orthodox population pre-dating it's becoming part of the US.

what are you talking about significant? Having a couple of missionaries doesn't  qulaify as native.

So you now admit that roman catholcisim is not foreign to russia and ulkraine.?
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« Reply #166 on: May 15, 2004, 01:36:31 PM »

Alaska contains one sixth of the land area of the United States, and is as much a state as any other, but with an Orthodox heritage dating from Russian missionaries to that part of North America.  Hence, Orthodoxy is not foreign to the United States as Alaska had a significant Orthodox population pre-dating it's becoming part of the US.

I know that, Theodore.  It was RomanByz. who didn't seem to know the history of Alaska, so I was posting what you had refered to.  It's a habit of mine to bring in historical data.

Ebor
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« Reply #167 on: May 15, 2004, 01:42:53 PM »

what are you talking about significant? Having a couple of missionaries doesn't  qulaify as native.

So you now admit that roman catholcisim is not foreign to russia and ulkraine.?
1. There were more than "a couple of missionaries."
2. The issue at hand has nothing to do with Russia or Ukraine.  Are you saying that Russia and Ukraine have never experienced Christianity (as in Alaska prior to the Russians) and thus in need of missionaries to bring the gospel of Christ to those lands for the first time?
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« Reply #168 on: May 15, 2004, 01:44:48 PM »

btw,  I went to mass last week in a catholic church called Saint Mary's (that's what I thought) and when the priest was done with the mass and everyone was going home....I realised that it was an anglo-catholic church.  I could not believe how catholic it was. people had rosaries, incense, statues of catholic saints, even the alter(sp).


Which probably indicated that it wasn't RC.  The more 'catholic-esque' a chuch is the more likely it's anglo-catholic instead of RC.  

I've been RC all of my life and have attended Masses at churches throughout the country and I can almost always tell a RC church even from driving down the street.  The tacky music, the people in shorts and jeans, the dreary homily, the tacky felt banners, the cold-ness of the congregation, that the priest doesn't care to talk to you...all indications you're in a RC church.  I have many ECUSA relatives so I've been to Episcopal services many times and to me the 'classier-ness' of the churches and the music indicate that it's not RC.  I lived in an upscale urban neighborhood in a large northwestern city for a short time which was full of churches built in the late 19th century.  The Episcopal churches (full of gay parishioners, btw) still looked pretty.  They were actually very charming.  In contrast, the RC churches were pretty hideous.  You'd go out in the hall to look for the restroom and you'd see an old statute stuck in a corner somewhere.  
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« Reply #169 on: May 15, 2004, 01:46:32 PM »

I know that, Theodore.  It was RomanByz. who didn't seem to know the history of Alaska, so I was posting what you had refered to.  It's a habit of mine to bring in historical data.

Ebor
I know you understand the history, and was expounding upon your well thought out remarks.  My remarks were directed at RB, who seems to have an ideological axe to grind, and uses every opportunity to try to minimize the Orthodox and promote Roman Catholicism.  Unfortunately for him, his grasp of history is limited.
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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #170 on: May 15, 2004, 01:46:36 PM »

Which probably indicated that it wasn't RC.  The more 'catholic-esque' a chuch is the more likely it's anglo-catholic instead of RC.  

I've been RC all of my life and have attended Masses at churches throughout the country and I can almost always tell a RC church even from driving down the street.  The tacky music, the people in shorts and jeans, the dreary homily, the tacky felt banners, the cold-ness of the congregation, that the priest doesn't care to talk to you...all indications you're in a RC church.  I have many ECUSA relatives so I've been to Episcopal services many times and to me the 'classier-ness' of the churches and the music indicate that it's not RC.  I lived in an upscale urban neighborhood in a large northwestern city for a short time which was full of churches built in the late 19th century.  The Episcopal churches (full of gay parishioners, btw) still looked pretty.  They were actually very charming.  In contrast, the RC churches were pretty hideous.  You'd go out in the hall to look for the restroom and you'd see an old statute stuck in a corner somewhere.  


lady.........You don't know what you are talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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« Reply #171 on: May 15, 2004, 01:48:29 PM »

I know you understand the history, and was expounding upon your well thought out remarks.  My remarks were directed at RB, who seems to have an ideological axe to grind, and uses every opportunity to try to minimize the Orthodox and promote Roman Catholicism.  Unfortunately for him, his grasp of history is limited.

Grasp of history limited? Don't make me laugh.

when have I promoted catholicism?

I don't have to  minimize orthodoxy.
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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #172 on: May 15, 2004, 01:49:11 PM »

1. There were more than "a couple of missionaries."
2. The issue at hand has nothing to do with Russia or Ukraine.  Are you saying that Russia and Ukraine have never experienced Christianity (as in Alaska prior to the Russians) and thus in need of missionaries to bring the gospel of Christ to those lands for the first time?

No... just the double standard of the orthodox.
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« Reply #173 on: May 15, 2004, 01:52:28 PM »

No... just the double standard of the orthodox.

Were you able to write this with a straight face?
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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #174 on: May 15, 2004, 01:56:36 PM »

Were you able to write this with a straight face?

straight as an arrow. and I though protestants were the extreme Representative of the art form " double standard"?

Believe me.. now I undertand why the double standard is employed, while denying it at the same time and doing the samething that other get accussed of.

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« Reply #175 on: May 15, 2004, 02:10:20 PM »

what are you talking about significant? Having a couple of missionaries doesn't  qulaify as native.

So you now admit that roman catholcisim is not foreign to russia and ulkraine.?

Please! a couple misssionaries?  By the point of the purchase of alaska, the native populations were sending missinionaries.  Services were conducted in Slavonic and various native dialects, native priests had been being ordained for over halph a century (by this point you could count the ethnically russian priests on one hand while native priests were very numerous indeed).  Even today,  most native villages will contain an ORthodox Church.  

Alaska had a very significant (aka majority) ORthodox Population.  Read "Orthodox Alaska"  by Michael Oleska for more information.

Also, norther California had a significant Orthodox Population *among the native americans*.    Thus the only truly native religion to American soil is Orthodoxy.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #176 on: May 15, 2004, 02:20:29 PM »

RB, noone is employing a doupble standard except you.  

OH and Jennifer does know what she is talking about.  I have had similar experiences myself.  Even RC trad Latin Masses seldom compare to Anglo-Catholic services.  so why don't you just quite hurling insults at the good people of this forum.

People please stop feeding the troll!

Joe Zollars
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romanbyzantium
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« Reply #177 on: May 15, 2004, 02:42:50 PM »

Please! a couple misssionaries?  By the point of the purchase of alaska, the native populations were sending missinionaries.  Services were conducted in Slavonic and various native dialects, native priests had been being ordained for over halph a century (by this point you could count the ethnically russian priests on one hand while native priests were very numerous indeed).  Even today,  most native villages will contain an ORthodox Church.  

Alaska had a very significant (aka majority) ORthodox Population.  Read "Orthodox Alaska"  by Michael Oleska for more information.

Also, norther California had a significant Orthodox Population *among the native americans*.    Thus the only truly native religion to American soil is Orthodoxy.

Joe Zollars

Joe, if you didn't know, which I expect you not to know is that catholcism was here way before the protestant and orthdox set foot in the new world. and california was very spanish and catholic if you didn't know.

Most of new world is roman catholic from north america to the south. and do you know why?
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« Reply #178 on: May 15, 2004, 02:45:13 PM »

RB, noone is employing a doupble standard except you.  

OH and Jennifer does know what she is talking about.  I have had similar experiences myself.  Even RC trad Latin Masses seldom compare to Anglo-Catholic services.  so why don't you just quite hurling insults at the good people of this forum.

People please stop feeding the troll!

Joe Zollars

No.. she does not know what she is talking about and that includes you alot of the time. and that is not insulting anyone.

see the anti catholics accusse us catholics of having fancy decorated churches...too ornate.. too rich for a christian church while another group accusse us of having tacky churches.  Why oh why do our daugthers hate us so.

BTW, I thought that you were never catholic? what gives...changed your story again. serioulsy.. you have got to keep track of your stories.

Yes people don't be afraid of the troll.
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« Reply #179 on: May 15, 2004, 02:52:42 PM »

I have not told you my religious background at all. YOu are just making assumptions.  From appearances, you do that quite frequently.

Joe Zollars
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