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Author Topic: are muslims terrorists?!  (Read 44402 times) Average Rating: 0
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united
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« on: May 02, 2004, 09:50:50 AM »

A bomb goes off in a marketplace in Jerusalem. A suicide bomber launches himself into a bus full of women and children in Tel Aviv. Foreign tourists get massacred at a holiday resort in Luxor, Egypt. Villages upon villages get annihilated in Algeria. The list of events worldwide which have come to symbolise the 'Islamic terror' are endless. From the times in the 70's and 80's when Pan Am and TWA aeroplanes would be highjacked, to the mid 80's in war torn Lebanon where Americans and Europeans would be held as hostages for years; all such incidents have come to be identified with the religion of Islam. Such incidents from past and present have undoubtedly affected Muslims worldwide and more so in the West. Any Muslim, who wants to practice his/her religion and expresses the pious desire to live under the banner of Islam, is labelled a fundamentalist or extremist. Any Muslim man who walks down a busy street in London or Paris (and Paris moreso) with a beard and a scarf on his head, is looked upon as being a terrorist who's probably got an AK47 stashed somewhere on his person. Muslim women who are veiled can't go anywhere in the Western world without being taunted as being oppressed or being mad (for covering up). However, are such beliefs and opinions about Islam really justified?

Exploding the myth

One of the many short comings which has arisen in the West, is judging Islam by the conduct of a minority of its people. By doing this, segments of Western society have deliberately played off the desperate actions of many Muslims, and have given it the name of Islam. Such behaviour is clearly not objective and seeks to distort the reality of Islam. For if such a thing was done - judge a religion by the conduct of its people - then we too could say that all Christianity is about is child molesting and homosexuality [1] whilst Hinduism was all about looting and breaking up mosques [2]. Generalising in such a manner is not seen as being objective, yet we find that the Western world is foremost in propagating this outlook on Islam. So what is the reality of Islam? How does one dispel the myths which have been created and spread so viciously? The only way to examine Islam is to simply examine its belief system. Look at its sources, the Qur'an and Sunna, and see what they have to say. This is the way to find the truth about what Islam says about terror, terrorism and terrorists. One who is sincerely searching for the truth, will do it no other way. The very name Islam comes from the Arabic root word 'salama' which means peace. Islam is a religion which is based upon achieving peace through the submission to the will of Allah. Thus, by this very simple linguistic definition, one can ascertain as to what the nature of this religion is. If such a religion is based on the notion of peace, then how is it that so many acts done by its adherents are contrary to peace? The answer is simple. Such actions, if not sanctioned by the religion, have no place with it. They are not Islamic and should not be thought of as Islamic.

Jihad

The word jihad sends shivers down the spines of many Westerners. They readily equate this term with violence and oppression. However, it must be said that the meaning of jihad, as a 'holy war', is something which is totally foreign and not from Islam. If anything, such a description belongs more so to Christianity and its adherents. It was terms like this which were used to justify the slaughter and pillage of towns and cities during the crusades by the Christians. By simply looking into the sources of Islam, one is able to know that the true meaning of jihad is to strive/make effort in the way of Allah. Thus striving in the way of Allah can be both peaceful and physical. The Prophet Muhammed (saws) said:

"The best jihad is (by) the one who strives against his own self for Allah, The Mighty and Majestic" [3]

In the Qur'an, Allah also says:

"So obey not the disbelievers, but make a great jihad (effort) against them (by preaching) with it (the Qur'an)"
(Surah Al-Furqan 25:52)

By controlling and fighting against ones desires, the Muslims can then also physically exert themselves in the path of Allah. It is this physical or combative jihad which receives so much criticism. Because of the sheer ignorance of this type of jihad Islam is regarded as terror, and Muslims are regarded as terrorists. However, the very purpose of this physical jihad is to raise the word of Allah uppermost. By doing this, it liberates and emancipates all those who are crying out for freedom all over the world. If the likes of the pacifists of this world had their way, then the world would indeed be full of anarchy and mischief. The combative jihad seeks to correct this as Allah says in the Qur'an:

"And if Allah did not check one set of people by means of another, the Earth would be full of mischief. But Allah is full of bounty to the worlds"
(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:251)

Such would be the corruption on this Earth if there had never been a combative jihad that Allah says:

"For had it not been that Allah checks one set of people by means of another, monasteries, churches, synagogues and mosques, wherein the name of Allah is mentioned much, would surely have been pulled down. Indeed Allah will help those who help His (cause). Truly Allah is All strong, All mighty"
(Surah Al-Hajj 22:40)

This combative jihad being both defensive and offensive, is something which is commanded by Allah upon the Muslims. Through this command the oppressed and weak are rescued from the tyranny of the world:

"And what is the matter with you that you do not fight in the cause of Allah and for those weak, ill treated and oppressed among men, women and children whose only cry is; 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors and raise for us from you one who will protect and raise for us from you one who will help"
(Surah An-Nisa 4:75)

Anyone who knows the early history of Islam, will know that all those nations and empires which came under the fold of Islam were indeed previously oppressed. When the companions of the Prophet Muhammed (saws) went out for the offensive jihad against the Egyptians, the Persians and the Romans, we find that the people did not resist against them at all. Rather, they accepted Islam on such a scale, that it is inconceivable that the jihad of Islam could be anything other then a liberation for these people; a liberation from centuries of tyranny. In fact, with the Byzantine Egyptians and the people of Spain, the Muslims were even beckoned to come and liberate these lands from the oppression of their kings. This is the glorious track record of the Muslim jihad. Compare this with the brutal track record of warfare in the Western world over the centuries. From the crusades against the Muslims to the days of colonial warfare, the Western world has killed, destroyed and plundered everything which has come in its way. Even today this merciless killing goes on by the Western nations. While claiming to be about world peace and security, Western nations are ready to bomb innocent civilians at the drop of a hat. The classic example of this is the recent bombings of Sudan and Afghanistan. Whilst claiming that Sudan and Afghanistan were havens for Islamic terrorists, the bombings of these two nations could not have come at a better time for the American president Bill Clinton. The destruction of innocent lives which were a result of these bombings clearly seem to have been an attempt by Clinton to avert attention away from his sexual misdemeanours; [4] something which he so often gets caught up in. Without doubt this was the reason for such terror from the American military upon innocent people. This is the same American military which claims to enter the worlds trouble spots under the guise of being peace keepers. But

"GǪ when it is said to them; 'Make not mischief on the Earth', they say; 'We are only peace makers'. Indeed they are the ones who make mischief, but they perceive it not"
(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:11-12)

The hypocrisy of the West is indeed astounding.

By looking at the rules and regulations of this combative jihad it will be clear to any sincere person that this is indeed the religion of truth. When fighting an unjust enemy, no matter how unjust they are, it is forbidden by Islam that their retreating forces are mutilated, tortured or slaughtered. The treacherous violation of treaties and carrying out assassinations after a cease fire, are also prohibited. Allah says in the Qur'an:


"And fight in the way of Allah those who fight you. But do not transgress the limits. Truly Allah loves not the transgressors"
(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:190)

Not transgressing the limits means not to kill women and children, for the Messenger of Allah (saws) "forbade the killing of women and children" [5]. Not transgressing the limits means that the elderly, the sick, monks, worshippers and hired labourers are not attacked. Not transgressing the limits means not killing animals wantonly, burning crops and vegetation, polluting waters and destroying homes, monasteries, churches and synagogues:

"Allah does not forbid you to deal justly and kindly with those who fought not against you on account of religion, nor drove you out of your homes. Indeed, Allah loves those who deal with equity"
(Surah Al-Mumtahinah 60:Cool

After reading such passages from the Qur'an and knowing about what Islam commands and prohibits in jihad, the rules of warfare are given a new meaning; a meaning of justice. How sad it is then, that whilst Islam is condemned for striking terror into the hearts of the people, the likes of the Serbs, the Indian army in Kashmir and the Israeli soldiers in Palestine are left untarnished for the atrocities they have committed in the name of warfare.

So what about suicide bombing, is this too a part of jihad in Allah's path? From what has already been stated above, it can be deduced that this is not from the religion. However, unfortunately many Muslims have taken suicide bombing as being a virtuous act by which one receives reward. This could not be further from the truth. The Prophet (saws) said: "Those who go to extremes are destroyed" [6]. Suicide bombing is undoubtedly an extremity which has reached the ranks of the Muslims. In the rules of warfare, we find no sanction for such an act from the behaviour and words of the Prophet Muhammed (saws) and his companions. Unfortunately, today (some misguided) Muslims believe that such acts are paving the way for an Islamic revival and a return to the rule of Islam's glorious law. However, we fail to bear in mind that the Prophet (saws) said:

"Do not be delighted by the action of anyone, until you see how he ends up" [7]

So, for example what is the end of a suicide bomber in Palestine?, a leg here, an arm there. Massive retaliation by the Israeli's in the West Bank and Gaza. More Muslims killed and persecuted. How can we be delighted with such an end? What really hammers the final nail in the coffin of this act, is that it is suicide; something which is clearly forbidden in Islam. The Messenger of Allah (saws) said:

"He who kills himself with anything, Allah will torment him with that in the fire of Hell" [8]

Some are under the misconception that by killing oneself for an Islamic cause, one commits an act which deserves Paradise. Once when a man killed himself, the Prophet (saws) said: "He is a dweller of the Fire". When the people were surprised at this, the Prophet (saws) said:

"A person performs the deeds which to the people appears to be the deeds befitting the dweller of Paradise, but he is in fact one of the dwellers of the Fire" [9]

The taking of ones life which Allah has given as a trust to the human, is a great sin. Likewise the taking of other lives (which is so often the case with suicide bombing) is also forbidden, as human life is indeed precious:

"...If anyone killed a person not in retaliation for murder or to spread mischief in the land, it would be as if he killed the whole of mankind. And (likewise) if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole of mankind"
(Surah Al-Maaida 5:32)

Thus, all other types of extremities such as hostage taking, hijacking and planting bombs in public places, are clearly forbidden in Islam.

The Media

By going through the teachings of Islam, it is clear that such a religion has only come to benefit mankind - not to destroy it. So why is there so much hatred for this noble religion in the West? The answer is simple, the media. It is the Jewish influenced media of the West which has portrayed Islam to be something that it is not. During the 70's and 80's when the PLO (Palestine Liberation Organisation) were carrying out daring highjacks on the worlds airways, the media in the West portrayed it as being Islamic. When the Shi'ite suicide bombers of the 80's were causing so much havoc in the Lebanon and in the Gulf region, the media in the West portrayed it as a part of Islam. However, it is known by the heads of the media that the likes of the PLO were not an Islamic organisation, and that according to Islam, Shi'ites are outside the fold of Islam [10]. Yet such facts are never portrayed by a media which seeks to cover the truth of this religion. A number of years ago, when the Oklahoma City bomb went off, a headline in one of the newspapers, 'Today' [11], summed up this attitude. With a picture of a fire fighter holding a dead child in his arms, the headline read: "In The Name of Islam" Time has of course proven that this bigoted assumption was incorrect, as Timothy McVeigh, a right wing radical now faces the death penalty for the crime [12]. Likewise the bombs which went off in the Paris metro in 1995, were also blamed on Muslim fanatics. It has now emerged that the Algerian secret service who having routinely bribed many European journalists and MPs, were actually behind it. The desire to throw a veil over Islam is immense by these people:

"They intend to put out the light of Allah with their mouths, but Allah will complete His light even though the disbelievers hate (it)"
(Surah As-Saff 61:Cool

Whilst trying to destroy Islam through this instrument of the media, the Jews clearly try to portray an image of themselves as being the oppressed people. Every year, we are reminded as to how many Jews perished under the Nazis in World War II. We are made to feel sorry for these same people who have gone on to commit so many crimes upon the Palestinian people. Some may say that this is a racist and biased viewpoint. But we say; If this media was not run and orchestrated by the Jews and was truly neutral, then why are Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir, two former Israeli prime ministers, not held aloft as being terrorists? Anyone who knows about the history of the Palestinian occupation will tell you that these two men were members of the Stern Gang and Irgun, two notorious Jewish terror groups who killed many innocent people [13]. If this media was truly impartial, then why does it not tell about the extent of the Israeli bombardment and illegal occupation of Southern Lebanon and its people? [14] And if this media really had nothing against the religion of Allah, then why does it not inform the people that every day hundreds are entering the religion of Islam? Such things will never be highlighted in the Western media, simply because to do so would be against their very interests.

With such immense pressure against it, it is indeed a blessing from Allah that Islam goes from strength to strength. It continues to grow faster then any other religion in the Western world, conquering the hearts and minds of thousands. All this should not even surprise us though, for Allah has promised us that this religion will prevail:

"It is He who has sent His Messenger with the guidance and the religion of truth, so that He may make it victorious over all other religions, even though the disbelievers detest it"
(Surah As-Saff 61:9)

It is a must that humanity comes towards the religion of Islam. Without it, we will continue to slip down the road of inequity and darkness. With it we can establish a society of justice and peace. Religion of terror? ... no. The way forward? ... yes.

"There is no compulsion in religion. The right path has indeed become distinct from the wrong. So whoever rejects false worship and believes in Allah, then he has grasped the most trustworthy handhold that will never break. And Allah is All Hearing, All Knowing"
(Surah Al-Baqarah 2:256)

 

Footnotes

[1] By using the many cases of child abuse and homosexuality by priests, Such a generalisation about Christianity could be made
[2] By using the incident of the destruction of the Babri mosque in Ayodya, India in December 1992 by Hindu zealots, such generalisations could be made about Hinduism
[3] Authentic - Reported by At-Tabaranee
[4] Years of sexual liaison with a White House aide, Monica Lewinski, has been proved against Mr Clinton. Since this time, a number of other women have also claimed that they have had affairs with the president. And this is the same man who propagates family values and to whom millions look up to!
[5] Reported by Bukhari - Eng. Trans, Vol.4, p. 160, No. 258
[6] Authentic - Reported by Ahmed
[7] Authentic - Reported by Ahmed
[8] Reported by Muslim - Eng. Trans, Vol. 1, p.62, No.203
[9] Reported by Muslim - Eng. Trans, Vol. 1, p.64, No.206
[10] The beliefs which are contained in the books of the Shi'ites places them outside of the fold of Islam generally. However, upon the individual Shi'ite, the proofs need to be established before one can say that he or she is a disbeliever
[11] This newspaper no longer exists
[12] It is strange indeed that whilst the Western media criticises Islamic law for being barbaric and harsh, not a word is said about the fact that McVeigh too will be executed just as someone would in an Islamic state
[13] These two groups killed Arabs, Jews and the British. They are accredited with the massacre at the village of Deir Yassin, in which many innocent people were butchered
[14] Despite the fact that the UN has even made a resolution against Israel for this illegal occupation, no 'democratic peace loving nation' (like the USA!) has bothered to implement it.
UNITED FOR PEACE AND JUSTICE "FIRAS"
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« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2004, 02:42:42 PM »

There is a common thread that runs through all of the terrorist groups throughout the world. Whether they are highly organized or in small hit-and-run groups there is one common thread that link them all.  Terrorism from the 9/11 WTC catastrophy to the Philippines, from the Sudan to Thailand, from Chechnya to Spain, from Bosnia to Indonesia, from Israel to Chad, from Yemen to Beirut, there is one common thread.  I for one, will not be fool enough to think that this is but a small minority when the majority refuse to condemn these heinous acts of terrorism. The folks who have to live with these persecutions daily are also not fooled.  Now what could be that common thread?

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« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2004, 09:15:36 PM »

There is a common thread that runs through all of the terrorist groups throughout the world. Whether they are highly organized or in small hit-and-run groups there is one common thread that link them all.  Terrorism from the 9/11 WTC catastrophy to the Philippines, from the Sudan to Thailand, from Chechnya to Spain, from Bosnia to Indonesia, from Israel to Chad, from Yemen to Beirut, there is one common thread.  I for one, will not be fool enough to think that this is but a small minority when the majority refuse to condemn these heinous acts of terrorism. The folks who have to live with these persecutions daily are also not fooled.  Now what could be that common thread?

JoeS  

I agree, JoeS.

And we're going to have to face facts sooner or later.

The Europeans have already let themselves be overrun by those people.

We can't count on their help. Even the Brits may chicken out eventually.

We better stop letting Muslims into this country.
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« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2004, 12:48:43 AM »

Quote
I agree, JoeS.
And we're going to have to face facts sooner or later.
The Europeans have already let themselves be overrun by those people.
We can't count on their help. Even the Brits may chicken out eventually.
We better stop letting Muslims into this country.

I agree. The europeans have already let them overun parts of thier native lands thanks to thier ultra tolerance & liberalism. Their own liberalism is killing them along with thier culture of death mentality. They have no children & have a decreasing native population, while the muslims have atleast 7 children if not more. They will within 50 years be the majority in Europe & those stinkin' leftist over there have nobody to blame but themselves. Synagauges are already burning in France & they do nothing about it because they don't want to "offend" the muslims. We have to prevent this from happening over here, but it may be hard do to a contingent of leftist holdovers from the 60's who are bent on bringing our system down by letting 3rd world people over here that contribute nothing & use our welfare system at a rate of 7 times more than the average american does. Very sad indeed.... :-";"xx
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« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2004, 01:31:52 AM »

Just a question. Who are the people who are killing Serbs, burning churches and monasteries in Serbia, and uninating on the ruins?  Ethnic Albanians.  And what religion are ethnic Albanians, by and large?
Let's just look at the facts.
And I just realized that this post sounds really polemical.  Sorry.
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« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2004, 02:40:24 AM »

Quote
Just a question. Who are the people who are killing Serbs, burning churches and monasteries in Serbia, and uninating on the ruins?  Ethnic Albanians.  And what religion are ethnic Albanians, by and large?
Let's just look at the facts.
And I just realized that this post sounds really polemical.  Sorry.

Hey....but it's still the religion of peace Wink Wink I mean come on, only 19 of the 21 conflicts around the world are caused by the aggression of these practitioners of the religion of peace.

We also know the UN is doing a great job in Serbia running away & hiding from the pratitioners of the religion of peace while they are burning homes & churches.
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« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2004, 07:46:48 AM »

World War III is on its way. I give it 20 years unless the West starts to deal with this issue.

Where is our Churchill? The lone voice crying in the wilderness.

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« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2004, 08:05:53 AM »

World War III is on its way. I give it 20 years unless the West starts to deal with this issue.

Where is our Churchill? The lone voice crying in the wilderness.



Perhaps war with the Muzzies is that from which the Man of Sin will "rescue" us.

The Jews will hail him as their political "messiah" come at last, and the world will agree.

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« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2004, 10:39:28 AM »

United wrote:
Muslim women who are veiled can't go anywhere in the Western world without being taunted as being oppressed or being mad (for covering up). However, are such beliefs and opinions about Islam really justified?

United, just outta curiosity, where do you live?  

I live in the Washington DC metro area, supposedly the central command for suppressing Islam.  I've never seen a muslim taunted (I know after 9/11 there were instances where people were taunted, abused, or had their property destroyed or damaged for even looking Arab, but that was a few years ago now) in public or private.  There are many women who wear headcoverings, long robes, etc.  No one here seeks to hurt them.  The only time I've heard of any muslim woman around here being abused was by her own husband (they lived in our building, & he was beating her & yelling at her so loudly police were called by neighbors, she was taken away on a streacher).  The building I live in is about 20% Muslim.  They live peacefully next to everyone else.  As far as covering up, no one blinks an eye when during the summer the Muslim girls swim in the pool completely clothed.  
Daily on the metro-train I see a few men reading the Koran, beards & everything on their way to work.  No one tries to pick fights with them, or calls them names or anything.  Granted since the explosions in Spain, even I've had some thoughts about "well, gotta be careful on the trains" but nobody abuses the Muslims here.  Honestly, I think you should open your own eyes & see how Americans in America treat Muslims.
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« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2004, 11:34:43 AM »

My interactions with Muslims have always been very positive.  In fact, I was engaged to a Muslim girl once when I was in India.  Most Muslims are just like most Christians (ie. laid back) but when you throw in poverty, dictatorial governments (both Muslim, secular, and occupying, you are bound to get some crazy people riled up who will actually blow stuff up.  If America were poor we'd have 10 times as many Tim McVeighs.

Continuing my rant, my Muslim ex-fiancee and her family--as well as every other Muslim family I met in India--thought their Arab bretheren that they saw on TV blowing stuff up were completely nuts.  Are there Indian Muslim terrorists? Yes, but they are funded by al-Qaida, and again, are drawn from the poor areas, and are mostly fueled by the India-Pakistan thing.

When I see people label Muslims as all the same I just don't know what to say because Muslims can be as different as the Pope, Tim LaHaye, and Jim Jones.

Granted, some of you are reacting to another one of united's outrageous posts.

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« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2004, 12:49:01 PM »

We have to prevent this from happening over here, but it may be hard do to a contingent of leftist holdovers from the 60's who are bent on bringing our system down by letting 3rd world people over here that contribute nothing & use our welfare system at a rate of 7 times more than the average american does. Very sad indeed.... :-

My family and practically my entire diocese is composed of immigrants from a "third world" country.  I've not heard of one case of our people using "your" welfare system (I suppose I could call it mine, since I'm a natural born US citizen, but I wouldn't want to impose).  I've not heard of one case of our people contributing nothing to "your" country, either.  Whether our people start their own small businesses (the stereotypical convenience store comes immediately to mind, the one where--surprise, surprise--many black and white American welfare recipients/abusers buy their bread and/or booze), or work in the medical, legal, computer, or other fields, making lots of money, achieving some semblance of the American dream, only to move into a neighbourhood populated primarily by American Jews who try their best to railroad them out even though they are financial equals (this last bit is the true story of my uncle's boss, both of them are PT's and Indian Christians), Indians living in the US, and their children who by and large follow in their footsteps, contribute positively, I think, to this country, and I imagine that they are not the only third world riffraff to do so.  

The quote above is racist, IMO.  And "very sad indeed".  

But I do have a question for Linus and Nacho.  You both agree that America needs to keep Muslims out of here.  How do you think that can be done?
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« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2004, 12:57:02 PM »

Indeed, Phil, that was an incredibly racist thing to say.  I have lived in overwhelmingly immigrant neighborhoods (usually South American but sometimes Asian) and I have never, ever seen an abuse of welfare by such immigrants.  If anything, they work longer and harder than the average white American living in the same neighborhood.

I challenge Nacho to furnish us with government statistics to back up this racist assertion of his.
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« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2004, 01:02:36 PM »

Nacho,

You're on thin ice this time buddy.  If you are going to make statements about other races you need to back it up with facts. My best friends are Hispanics (all either legal immigrants or born here) and they work harder than many Whites or Blacks.

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« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2004, 01:20:07 PM »

I find it interesting that United mostly posts length pieces that she (assuming that United is a woman) did not write and that set up strawmen of Christians. If they are to cause an epiphany of the readers here and have us all stampeded to convert to Islam, I fear that they are not succeeding.  

Quote
"Muslim women who are veiled can't go anywhere in the Western world without being taunted as being oppressed or being mad (for covering up).

Within a few miles of my house are at least 3 mosques (one Ammidaya (sp?) even) with one of them right next door to an Ukrainian Orthodox Church.  So I will frequently see women wearing a hijab.  Not once have I taunted such women, nor have I witnessed it in the grocery store or the pharmacy or among the parents at my children's school.  Yes, there are persons who are jerks, or self-important busy-bodies or worse. That happens in many places.  But such blanket statements that would show Muslims as perenial victims do not reflect reality.

Ebor
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« Reply #14 on: May 03, 2004, 01:24:52 PM »

Well, I see Ania beat me to it... Next time I'll read all of a thread before posting maybe.

Nacho, that was a sweeping blanket statment in it's own right, and amazingly offensive.  What data do you have for this opinion of yours?  Not commentators essays, but facts.

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« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2004, 01:40:52 PM »

Most Muslims are just like most Christians (ie. laid back) but when you throw in poverty, dictatorial governments (both Muslim, secular, and occupying, you are bound to get some crazy people riled up who will actually blow stuff up.

I don't disagree with you Anastasios.

However, you also have to remember that the same was said of the German people before WWII. But that did NOT stop a fanatic like Hitler from coming to power and implementing his program to restore the "dignity" of the German people. At least that is what the masses WANTED to believe -- even though his true plan was evident from his earlier writings and speaches.

I see the SAME thing happening in Islam today. How many times do we see hateful writings from Islamic Clerics that are dismissed or excused because they are seen as Moderates! How many more times do we have to bear the silence of "Western Clerics" who refuse to speak out against the hate being taught in the Arab world?

It only takes a few charismatic fanatics to loose the devil among the masses.

"Those who have ears, let him hear."

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« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2004, 02:23:37 PM »

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I don't disagree with you Anastasios.

However, you also have to remember that the same was said of the German people before WWII. But that did NOT stop a fanatic like Hitler from coming to power and implementing his program to restore the "dignity" of the German people. At least that is what the masses WANTED to believe -- even though his true plan was evident from his earlier writings and speaches.

I see the SAME thing happening in Islam today. How many times do we see hateful writings from Islamic Clerics that are dismissed or excused because they are seen as Moderates! How many more times do we have to bear the silence of "Western Clerics" who refuse to speak out against the hate being taught in the Arab world?

It only takes a few charismatic fanatics to loose the devil among the masses.

al-Islam: they may hate me (or perhaps most don't!) but I respect them.

People who live in little countries that lack the armed forces needed to invade and occupy my home aren't a threat to me such that I want to invade and occupy theirs. BTW, Iraq had no such plans.

If what used to be called the First World does the right thing and stops meddling in the Middle East, including stopping support of the Zionist occupiers of Palestine, the so-called devils will have no motive to be 'loosed' by 'charismatic fanatics'.

If it had done the right thing years ago, 9/11 never would have happened.

This situation is not a repeat of the battles of Constantinople, Lepanto or Vienna.

If I'm wrong and you're right and it is or becomes that, my blog is for peace but not pacifist - pro-just war for defence. Any of those countries foolish enough to try to invade would be destroyed, end of story.
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« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2004, 02:35:41 PM »

I am not worried about an invasion. I am worried about something like a fanatical Islamic government comes to power when The President of Pakistan is eventually assassinated and they then have access to nuclear weapons.

What do we do when that happens? Do we do a pre-emptive strike like the Israelis? I believe that we would have no CHOICE but to do so.

Then you will have WWIII.

It is only a matter of time until a scenario like the above occurs. be it nuclear or chemical -- it WILL happen.

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« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2004, 02:40:59 PM »

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I am not worried about an invasion. I am worried about something like a fanatical Islamic government comes to power when The President of Pakistan is eventually assassinated and they then have access to nuclear weapons.

What do we do when that happens? Do we do a pre-emptive strike like the Israelis? I believe that we would have no CHOICE but to do so.

Then you will have WWIII.

It is only a matter of time until a scenario like the above occurs. be it nuclear or chemical -- it WILL happen.

You sound like you WANT war and would enjoy killing these people.

Pakistan doesn't want to nuke the US, the UK or the Continent - it would be terrible if they decided to destroy India but that's not our war (sorry, Phil, but this isn't India and we're not the world's policeman).

I think Muslims - and Christians - want Palestine back, not to destroy it.

Just like Red China's got nukes (IIRC) but won't attack Taiwan. It could destroy it, but doesn't want to, but not invade and rule it.
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« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2004, 02:45:31 PM »

You sound like you WANT war and would enjoy killing these people.

That's a stupid statement, Serge. Sorry, but I don't know of any other way to put it. I have a son who is 20 years old. You think I want war?

The US made a HUGE mistake in the 1950's by allowing our enemy to develop a nuclear capability. We should never have let that happen.
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« Reply #20 on: May 03, 2004, 02:46:47 PM »

Can one be a member of the Nazi party and not be Nazi ? Can someone believe in the destruction of the others as muslims believe and work hard to achieve and not be a terrorist ? This is simply written in the Quran, and all muslims believe in it.  

I don;t think it will be WW III, though. One of the most prominant islamic leaders in the 60's , from Egypt, called Sayyed Kutb, has his ideas spreading like fire among the muslims. It is rather interesting, and evil.

When asked about why the West (the infidels) are by far more superior than the islamic World, he replied : Allah has gave the West so much so we can conquer them and take it without SWEAT. Because the islamic World is an example of poverty, and muslims are an example of retardation, the West cannot be invaded by Force any more as in the 8th and 17th centuries.

The invasion will be through abusing their liberal and tolerant system, go there, make babies, and be a majority. As such, muslims will use democracy to cancel democracy, and the riches and women (what muslims think of) will be their spoils.

That is what I believe will happen, and it will be the end of any Western civilization. Islam and civilization do not come together.
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« Reply #21 on: May 03, 2004, 02:48:13 PM »

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That's a stupid statement, Serge. Sorry, but I don't know of any other way to put it. I have a son who is 20 years old. You think I want war?

Well, I think the pro-war position is stupid. I'm for peace exactly so men like your son don't get killed for no good reason.

Quote
The US made a HUGE mistake in the 1950's by allowing our enemy to develop a nuclear capability. We should never have let that happen.

IIRC that was Julius and Ethel Rosenberg's fault in the late 1940s (the USSR exploded its first nuke in 1949), not the US.

Stavro,

OK, I get it - you hate Islam or at least what you think it is.

I may hate the Mormons (BTW, Muslims are the Mormons of Orthodoxy - an apostate knockoff) or the even more annoying Jehovah's Witnesses, for example, but don't want to stage a military attack on their homes because of it!

And as anastasios, who has spent lots of time in India and has met many different Muslim people, says, they aren't all out to kill you! In fact probably most aren't.
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« Reply #22 on: May 03, 2004, 02:53:33 PM »

Well, I think the pro-war position is stupid. I'm for peace exactly so men like your son don't get killed for no good reason.

Yeah. You mean like this guy?

http://www.lib.byu.edu/~rdh/eurodocs/uk/peace.html

IIRC that was Julius and Ethel Rosenberg's fault in the late 1940s (the USSR exploded its first nuke in 1949), not the US.

I am not sure what you are saying here.

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« Reply #23 on: May 03, 2004, 02:57:48 PM »

Not a parallel - Britain re: Germany and the US re: Germany were completely different issues.

Hitler decided to attack Britain if he couldn't have it as an ally.

The Germans had no plans to invade the US and they knew it was physically impossible to try.

So it was with Iraq.

Quote
I am not sure what you are saying here.


Two things: that what you refer to happened in the 1940s, not the ’50s, and more importantly the US didn't decide to let the Communists get the Bomb. That was the doing of two Americans who were spies for the Soviets.
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« Reply #24 on: May 03, 2004, 03:17:53 PM »


All I know is that in Russia atop many of the Church Cupolas there are Crosses above a horizontal crescent.  This relates to the explusion of the Tartars and represents the triumpth of Christianity over Islam.  

For the last three years I have been looking for such a Cross to proudly wear around my neck.  But cannot find one.  If anyone one knows of a place where one can be obtained let me know.

With what is going on in the world today regarding these so called 'peace loving' Muslim's I will wear such a Cross with pride.

I have even thought of comissioning a jeweler  to make one for me.

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« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2004, 03:30:18 PM »

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All I know is that in Russia atop many of the Church Cupolas there are Crosses above a horizontal crescent.  This relates to the explusion of the Tartars and represents the triumpth of Christianity over Islam.

Actual invaders and occupiers. Not like today. I think there's still a now-peaceful Ta(r)tar minority in Russia and the eastern Ukraine today.
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« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2004, 03:37:25 PM »

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The quote above is racist, IMO.  And "very sad indeed".  

Where did I mention anyone's race??? I could care less about someone's race. If I did rant about someone's race, then that would be "very sad indeed." I don't really care where they come from, I care about americans being able to access our welfare system first before others do that already have a priviledge in coming over here.

Quote
Indeed, Phil, that was an incredibly racist thing to say.  I have lived in overwhelmingly immigrant neighborhoods (usually South American but sometimes Asian) and I have never, ever seen an abuse of welfare by such immigrants.  If anything, they work longer and harder than the average white American living in the same neighborhood.
You're on thin ice this time buddy.  If you are going to make statements about other races you need to back it up with facts. My best friends are Hispanics (all either legal immigrants or born here) and they work harder than many Whites or Blacks.


OK, again this has nothing to do with race. I don't care where they are coming from. What I care about are americans having access to the welfare system first. Most other coutries that are well off put a burden of proof on anyone that wants to move into thier county that they are going to be productive citizens right off the bat & without government assistance. I have seen & heard too many stories from Russian & Romanian friends of mine on how they get away with abuses with our system. I don't think that's really fair. I should have clarified also in my post between "illegal" immigrants & legal immigrants that do have good intentions. I live in  California, & we have a huge problem with illegal immigration that is costing us Billions of dollars. They are also causing many of our hospitals to be closed down closer to the border & our prison system is overfilling with criminal illegal immigrants. I don't think that's fair to all of us who have to pay for that with  hard earned tax dollars.  
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« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2004, 03:40:01 PM »

Of course without illegal immigrants our economy would slow down tremendously and of course most illegal immigrants pay taxes they will never see and social security benefits they will never receive due to fake id's.

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« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2004, 03:44:44 PM »

If western democracies wind up with populations having a Muslim majority, will new legislation and judicial rulings reflect this new majority?  IMHO, it will.   I would find it difficult to believe otherwise.  I can only go on what I see in countries presently having Muslims in leadership positions and I cant point to a single one having anything closely resembling our democratic republic.

JoeS :'(

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« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2004, 04:12:57 PM »

I find it interesting that United mostly posts length pieces that she (assuming that United is a woman) did not write and that set up strawmen of Christians.

Yes, I agree, Ebor it is interesting that United has chosen to post more of this propaganda complete with the usual sweeping generalizations. This one looks like it was written in the aftermath of 9/11 when feelings were running particularly high and to state that all Muslim women are targeted for abuse is just hysterical. What United needs to address is the reality that Islamic terrorism exists and that a religious justification is being sought for it.

Did you see the furore that the former Archbishop of Canterbury, George Carey, caused by his remarks on Islam recently? He had the audacity to say that the welcome given to Muslims in the west, complete with freedom of worship and the right to build mosques, should be reciprocated to Christians in Islamic countries. There's a summary of his address here.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/03/26/1079939849867.html?from=storyrhs
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« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2004, 04:15:40 PM »

Quote
I have seen & heard too many stories from Russian & Romanian friends of mine on how they get away with abuses with our system.

And I can take a look in neighborhood and see at least 10 white Americans whose families have been here for generations doing the same thing.  It has nothing to do with where someone came from.

And I'd like to point out that the largest recipients of welfare in this country are big business who use every single loophole they can to get away with not paying their taxes and abusing every privilege the government offers, whether they (the corporations) need them or not.
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« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2004, 04:38:38 PM »

Yes, I agree, Ebor it is interesting that United has chosen to post more of this propaganda complete with the usual sweeping generalizations. This one looks like it was written in the aftermath of 9/11 when feelings were running particularly high and to state that all Muslim women are targeted for abuse is just hysterical. What United needs to address is the reality that Islamic terrorism exists and that a religious justification is being sought for it.

Did you see the furore that the former Archbishop of Canterbury, George Carey, caused by his remarks on Islam recently? He had the audacity to say that the welcome given to Muslims in the west, complete with freedom of worship and the right to build mosques, should be reciprocated to Christians in Islamic countries. There's a summary of his address here.

http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/03/26/1079939849867.html?from=storyrhs  

Yes, I saw that and another in which John Rhys-Davies, the actor, remarked on supporting Western Culture and not letting it be taken over by Islam (Any culture where any granddaughter of his would be beaten for wearing nail varnish is not one in which he would want them to live).  Both were roundly upbraided for it.  

Last week I was following links and came to a blog written by a Muslim gentleman living in Saudi Arabia.  He is very much against the Muttawa (the "religious police") and thought that Abp. Carey (actually, being retired I think he's Lord Carey now) "hit the nail on the head".  Right now the blog is not being up dated as things are unsettled in S.A. and if he were to be found out, the authorities would not be....indifferent, let's say.
I'll send you the URL if you want.  It's an amazing site and dedicated to the 15 girls who died in the Makkah school fire because the Muttawa wouldn't let them out without their abaya and veil.  He doesn't mince words about some of the evil treatment of women and other things in S.A.

Ebor
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« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2004, 04:59:10 PM »

well sisiters and brothers, i read your replies and as ania said there is nothing about muslims or...problems with muslims in washington dc the capital of "democracy"(peace on you socrates)
but in your reply...there is some kind of racism.....that i respect anyway:)
well i hope that the USA and the high standard of living countries will remember that there is a continent called africa:children are dying and starving 24 hours a day(chatting online about them 24 hours a day:ironic)
well i remember in 1997 when mother thereza died(peace on her)
everybody was busy LISTENING TO THE HOMOSEXUAL and the great artist elton john singing a good bye song to lady diana in a CHURCH:)
guys don't forget the children all around the world
UNITED FOR PEACE AND JUSTICE"LEBANON"
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« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2004, 05:05:36 PM »

And I can take a look in neighborhood and see at least 10 white Americans whose families have been here for generations doing the same thing.  It has nothing to do with where someone came from.

And I'd like to point out that the largest recipients of welfare in this country are big business who use every single loophole they can to get away with not paying their taxes and abusing every privilege the government offers, whether they (the corporations) need them or not.

I'd say the largest recipients of welfare are the middle class.  People like us, from the middle class, rant and rave about *them* receiving welfare when we are 'welfare' recipients.  What is social security or Medicare if not welfare?  What about stafford loans?  What about the FHA and the subsidizing of mortgage interest?
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« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2004, 05:09:57 PM »

Social security: we pay into it.
Medicare: yes, welfare
Stafford loans: i'm payin' my loans back, so that ain't welfare
FHA and interest: welfare.
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« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2004, 05:12:28 PM »

We can argue over who gets the largest chunk, I suppose, but that doesn't change the fact that Nacho's assertion that the illegal immigrant receives 7 times more than the average American is dead wrong.
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« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2004, 05:12:55 PM »

the holy quran:al maeda:the table spread
82:....AND NEAREST AMONG THEM IN LOVE TO BELIEVERS WILT THOU FIND THOSE WHO SAY:WE ARE CHRISTIANS:BECAUSE AMONGST THESE ARE MEN DEVOTED TO LEARNING AND MEN WHO HAVE RENOUNCED THE WORLD,AND THEY ARE NOT ARROGANT.
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« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2004, 05:33:07 PM »

Social security: we pay into it.
Medicare: yes, welfare
Stafford loans: i'm payin' my loans back, so that ain't welfare
FHA and interest: welfare.

Social security is welfare because what you're paying right now is subsidizing someone receiving social security.  

Stafford loans are also welfare because they're subsidized.  You don't pay interest on the unsubsidized portion while in school.  As for the unsubsidized portion, if the federal government didn't back up the loan, most students wouldn't be able to borrow.  

You have to take what Nacho says with a grain of salt.  He hears that stuff on those talk radio programs he listens to.  They're obsessed with illegal immigrants and "welfare queens."  He just doesn't know better.  

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« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2004, 05:34:08 PM »

Quote
Of course without illegal immigrants our economy would slow down tremendously and of course most illegal immigrants pay taxes they will never see and social security benefits they will never receive due to fake id's.

Yes, & this is the crux of the problem. I have a feeling that if we paid $15.00 an hour for those jobs that americans don't want to do we will still could save alot of money in the long run. We could also have people that are on welfare right now do some of these jobs that no one wants to do. I would make some exceptions obviously for those that are disabled or have poor physical health. I do wish that all these people that are coming over illegally would just wait a little longer and do it the right way. I know many of these people are hard workers, but there are also many that come over and get in trouble. I have heard that the percentage of illegal immigrants in the California jail system is around 20% of the total population. That's costing us some major money & government resources to pay for all that.

Quote
And I'd like to point out that the largest recipients of welfare in this country are big business who use every single loophole they can to get away with not paying their taxes and abusing every privilege the government offers, whether they (the corporations) need them or not.

I agree, and I think this is very unfair to the average hard working american who is paying a ton of taxes. I think there should be more government regulation when it comes to business practices.

Quote
I'd say the largest recipients of welfare are the middle class.  People like us, from the middle class, rant and rave about *them* receiving welfare when we are 'welfare' recipients.  What is social security or Medicare if not welfare?  What about stafford loans?  What about the FHA and the subsidizing of mortgage interest?  

Yes Jennifer, but we pay the most in taxes. I don't understand where you are coming from. Are you advocating that the middle class should be taxed more??? How about taxing the rich more, which is a better solution.
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« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2004, 05:54:30 PM »

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You have to take what Nacho says with a grain of salt.  He hears that stuff on those talk radio programs he listens to.  They're obsessed with illegal immigrants and "welfare queens."  He just doesn't know better.  

What???

Take a look at these sources & see what they have to say Jen..

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=Nationarchive200308NAT20030820a.html

http://www.fairus.org/ImmigrationIssueCenters/ImmigrationIssueCenters.cfm?ID=2382&c=13

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/7/29/150259.shtml

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« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2004, 06:11:58 PM »

well sisiters and brothers, i read your replies and as ania said there is nothing about muslims or...problems with muslims in washington dc the capital of "democracy"(peace on you socrates)
but in your reply...there is some kind of racism.....that i respect anyway:)
well i hope that the USA and the high standard of living countries will remember that there is a continent called africa:children are dying and starving 24 hours a day(chatting online about them 24 hours a day:ironic)
well i remember in 1997 when mother thereza died(peace on her)
everybody was busy LISTENING TO THE HOMOSEXUAL and the great artist elton john singing a good bye song to lady diana in a CHURCH:)
guys don't forget the children all around the world
UNITED FOR PEACE AND JUSTICE"LEBANON"

And is it Red Crescent giving aid to the starving children in Africa like the Red Cross and "Save the Children" and other "western" charities?  Or trying to buy the freedom of Christian and Animist Sudanese slaves owned by Muslims in that country?

I'm not sure what the death of Mother Theresa has to do with one small portion of the funeral of the late Princess Diana.  But it was hardly "Everybody" listening. If you were did you listen to any of the Chistian (Anglican) burial service or the real Christian/liturgical music?  

One person here made what was deemed "racist" remarks.  Did you read the posts that objected? More blanket statements it seems.

Ebor
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« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2004, 06:15:32 PM »

the holy quran:al maeda:the table spread
82:....AND NEAREST AMONG THEM IN LOVE TO BELIEVERS WILT THOU FIND THOSE WHO SAY:WE ARE CHRISTIANS:BECAUSE AMONGST THESE ARE MEN DEVOTED TO LEARNING AND MEN WHO HAVE RENOUNCED THE WORLD,AND THEY ARE NOT ARROGANT.


Is it "arrogant" to disagree when incorrect information is given?  

Please do not use all capitol letters.  Thats the equivalent of SHOUTING in a post.

Ebor
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« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2004, 06:28:19 PM »

Schultz, I agree with you.  Look at all the farmers and ranchers who use the subsidy programs.  They purposely grow crops that they know that there's not a big enough market for simply so that they can get subsidies.  Not to mention people who take advantage of welfare and medicare.  The fact is that illegal immigrants are often willing to work the jobs that most Americans (including some of the poor) are not willing to do.
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« Reply #43 on: May 03, 2004, 06:32:25 PM »

What Jennifer says about Social Security is true.  What we are paying into Social Security is going out as payments to those receiving Social Security now.  That is why there is real concern that when us Boomers and later generations get old enough to receive Social Security, it will be bankrupt because each generation is getting smaller.  Therefore, there will be fewer people paying into Social Security to make the payments.
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« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2004, 06:44:01 PM »

Quote
One person here made what was deemed "racist" remarks.  Did you read the posts that objected? More blanket statements it seems.

Racist in your own mind. The comments I made at the very most could be called "anti 3rd world" remarks. I challenge you to show me any so called racist remarks I have made. I find it offensive & a giant leap to what I originally posted & then somehow equate that to racism. I agree what I said could be insensitive to some that have come from a 3rd world country & trying hard to make it here & I should have put it in better terms & distengiush between legal & illegal immigrants. My apologies for not doing so....but calling it racist is plain nonsense.
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« Reply #45 on: May 03, 2004, 07:03:12 PM »

the holy quran:al maeda:the table spread
82:....AND NEAREST AMONG THEM IN LOVE TO BELIEVERS WILT THOU FIND THOSE WHO SAY:WE ARE CHRISTIANS:BECAUSE AMONGST THESE ARE MEN DEVOTED TO LEARNING AND MEN WHO HAVE RENOUNCED THE WORLD,AND THEY ARE NOT ARROGANT.

And also from the quran: al maeda:the table spread
72:...They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

So according to the Quran Christians are going to hell.   All because Mohammed didn't understand the Christian concept of the Trinity as evidenced below:

al maeda:the table spread
116:...And when Allah saith: O Jesus, son of Mary! Didst thou say unto mankind: Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah? he saith: Be glorified! It was not mine to utter that to which I had no right.
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« Reply #46 on: May 03, 2004, 10:04:26 PM »

I highly recommend reading Serge Trifkovic's "The Sword of the Prophet" for a good, historical account of the development of Islam.  Mohommed was basically a hyper-sexual nut-case, and he and his followers have duped a huge percentage of the world's people.

Interestingly, I hear that some Islamic leaders in Iraq are using Islam as a tool to get the anti-American sentiment flowing.  The Islamic leaders aren't nearly as faithful or "religious" as the masses whom they are duping for political advantages.  I can't help but see parallels to former political leaders in traditionally Orthodox countries who used Orthodoxy as a tool for political means.......
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« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2004, 11:25:50 PM »

Sorry all,

   I got into this discussion late, so my comments may seem out of line with the current air of debate.

   I think terrorism is largely the product of multifarious suffering. The main catalysts, AFAIAK, are poverty, water shortages, and starvation. It's amazing how we have these internet discussions, think about them occasionally in our unique American existences, or we go to our respectable Apostolic Churches and yes, pray for these things to cease, etc. How many of us actually do anything about these things?

  Imagine if all Orthodox, all Catholics (add other here) would just take up more suffering for the good of their respected Churches, and for the people of God. Much can be found in St. Paul's writings about his personal suffering (aka penances) for the Church of God. He did it (as we should do) focally for the santification of himself in Christ, but I believe he also mentioned he suffered for the sake of others.

  Instead of fruitless debates, I thik it is time that we suffer and pray for the sake of the world.

     Pax Christi.
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« Reply #48 on: May 03, 2004, 11:34:42 PM »

Sorry all,

   I got into this discussion late, so my comments may seem out of line with the current air of debate.

   I think terrorism is largely the product of multifarious suffering. The main catalysts, AFAIAK, are poverty, water shortages, and starvation.
Hmm, let's see.  The al-qaeda terrorists are generally rich or upper middle class, have plenty to drink, and except for those on the run from US troops in Afghanistan, are well fed.   They are driven by a fanatical and evil ideology.
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« Reply #49 on: May 04, 2004, 01:04:29 AM »

Guys, I think it's high time we wise up:  All of united's posts are basically trying to bait us into making asses of ourselves and/or try to get us to apostasize to Islam, among other things that I'm probably missing.
Maybe we should stop responding and/or the mods should try to take care of that kind of psuedo-trolling?  I know you've warned her (I think united is a she), but she doesn't seem to have gotten the message yet.
Just a suggestion, FWIW.
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« Reply #50 on: May 04, 2004, 07:08:04 AM »

if you want me to leave this site,i'll do....
democracy is coming to the usa:) (leonard cohen)
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« Reply #51 on: May 04, 2004, 07:50:08 AM »

We have a saying in the south: "Don't let the screen door hit you on your way out".
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« Reply #52 on: May 04, 2004, 08:01:48 AM »

Smiley
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« Reply #53 on: May 04, 2004, 08:08:47 AM »

I for one do not like seeing Islamic propaganda or verses from the Koran.

Islam is a great tragedy.

May God destroy it and deliver those in its clutches.

God loves Muslims (and all people), but He wants them to repent and come to Christ.
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« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2004, 08:30:38 AM »


Enough is enough.

Please, moderators, this guy has got to go.

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« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2004, 08:52:11 AM »

"I am not worried about an invasion. I am worried about something like a fanatical Islamic government comes to power when The President of Pakistan is eventually assassinated and they then have access to nuclear weapons.

What do we do when that happens? Do we do a pre-emptive strike like the Israelis? I believe that we would have no CHOICE but to do so.

Then you will have WWIII.

It is only a matter of time until a scenario like the above occurs. be it nuclear or chemical -- it WILL happen."

I'm not so sure this will ever happen, Tom.  Pakistan is much like Turkey in one critical respect ... it is essentially controlled by the military, and the military acts as a prevention against the Islamic fundies taking over the government.  It's unlikely that the Pakistani mililtary would allow the fundies to take over the government because they are worried about what India would do if that were to happen.  So I actually see the Pakistani situtation as fairly suitable for our own interests ... a little nervewracking but fairly suitable.   A bigger risk is that some nuclear material is leaked out to the terrorists even while the Junta remains in power, and that is a serious risk we are running right now, but not only in Pakistan, there is also the risk that nuclear scientists and those with access to nuclear materials in various parts of the former Soviet union would provide material and/or assistance in exchange for cash, and as we know many of these terrorists, being as they are from Saudi Arabia, have quite a bit of cash.  So it's really more of a non-proliferation threat, and a threat on a broader basis, than specifically a Pakistani threat.

I think that the bigger issue is "what is our strategy in the Middle East"?  While I have some sympathy for the "let's just pull out of the Middle East and leave them alone" argument, I honestly don't think that this is feasible, even leaving aside our alliance with Israel for the moment.  If we were to completely pull out of the Middle East in terms of our political support for admittedly autocractic, undemocratic regimes, their days would be numbered, and we would have, in essence, a bunch of Irans, or a bunch of countries embroiled in a civil war a la Algeria, for some time to come.  The Bin Ladens of the world want us out so that they can trash the existing regimes and replace them with Islamic theocracies a la Iran.  Clearly this is in no-one's interest, and certainly not, given that the region is a huge source of oil for Western Europe, and even an important one for North America.  So I don't think the "pull out" option is really feasible, saves lives, promotes a positive future for the Middle East or anything else, and it is kind of self-indulgent because it basically amounts to the United States abdicating its responsibility to lead.  Given the unprecedented degree of power we have, not just military, but political, social, economic, cultural, we have a responsibility to lead.  But the question is: how, and what should be the policy.

Clearly it is our medium to long term goal to promote the development of stable, democractic-style regimes in the region.  This is the win/win scenario, better for us, better for the people who live in the region.  The question is how do we get from where we are today to where we want the region to be?  How, for example, do we transition countries in the region from true Kingdoms like Saudi or Oman or Jordan, to gradually more democratic regimes?  One key would seem to be to promote economic development on a broader scale so as to create a larger middle class.  There is plenty of wealth in the Middle East,as we know, but it is poorly distributed.  One way to approach this would be to pressure the regimes in the region to reorganize their economies in this way, over time,and there are carrots and sticks we could use to do that.  It is a tight-rope of, on the one hand, trying to prevent Saudi from becoming another Iran, while on the other, encouraging a transition from autocracy in economic and political terms, to some kind of Islamic-style democracy.  This is certainly a challenge, but it seems to me to be the central one for us and for the remainder of the world, in trying to help the Islamic world come up to par with everyone else.  Noone is really talking about this, however, and that is very troubling.  

Brendan
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« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2004, 09:27:56 AM »

It's unlikely that the Pakistani mililtary would allow the fundies to take over the government because they are worried about what India would do if that were to happen.

That's a very good point Brendan.
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« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2004, 10:07:33 AM »

We have a saying in the south: "Don't let the screen door hit you on your way out".

I hope you're not suggesting that living in DC means you live "in the south", my friend!  ;-)
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« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2004, 10:21:48 AM »

Well, it *is* below the Mason-Dixon Line, Schultz.  <grin>
and you know who the "despot" is in the Maryland state song, don't you?

Ebor
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« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2004, 10:27:15 AM »

My girlfriend tries to tell me the same thing, that she's a "southern belle" because she was born in Baltimore!

Puh-leaze.  

Ever since the War of the Great Rebellion (you hush, Zollars, ya hear?!) Maryland and especially Washington, DC has been overrun by Yankees such as myself so much that the South now begins at the Potomac, and I'd even go so far to say the "real" South begins at the James.  Northern VA is almost as Yankee-fied as Maryland. :-P
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« Reply #60 on: May 04, 2004, 10:49:41 AM »

As a bonified Yankee transplant living south of the Potomac & north of the James, I fully agree with Shultz.
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« Reply #61 on: May 04, 2004, 12:56:11 PM »

Hey, I'm from Montana. yer all a buncha "easterners to me."  Grin Grin Just a physical fact that Mr. Mason and Mr. Dixon drew the line up north of here.

Actually I've heard D.C. described as a city with "Northern Charm and Southern Efficiency."  

"Southern Belles" in Baltimore?  That's a new one on me.  I can't see "Belles" calling people "Hon".    But its'a nice place. And I found out last week why it's called "Charm City"

Just kidding around with you Schultz.

Ebor


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« Reply #62 on: May 04, 2004, 01:02:53 PM »

Actually I've heard D.C. described as a city with "Northern Charm and Southern Efficiency."  

Yep. I have heard it referred to as "a sleepy southern town" until World War I broke out and it started to grow.

I was born in DC at Georgetown.
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« Reply #63 on: May 04, 2004, 01:07:42 PM »

There's very little charm in Baltimore. :-P
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« Reply #64 on: May 04, 2004, 01:28:46 PM »

My girlfriend tries to tell me the same thing, that she's a "southern belle" because she was born in Baltimore!

Puh-leaze.  

Ever since the War of the Great Rebellion (you hush, Zollars, ya hear?!) Maryland and especially Washington, DC has been overrun by Yankees such as myself so much that the South now begins at the Potomac, and I'd even go so far to say the "real" South begins at the James.  Northern VA is almost as Yankee-fied as Maryland. :-P

[heritage rant]

Just because y'all have stolen our homeland........ Tongue

Anyways your girlfriend could indeed be a southroner (yes that is the correct spelling according to pre-war southron orthonography).  Does she have ancestors who fought in the war?  Maryland still contains many a good southron family, even if y'all were too cowardly to fight with us in the Second War of Independence.

And about this whole War of Rebelion junk, how could we rebel against something that had always been a voluntary union of sovreign (key word sovreign) republics.  What the south did was excercise their constitutional right to keep the feds from taking our rights and liberties.  Of course since the War, nothing has been voluntary--particularly for us Southrons who have been at the brunt end of over 140 years of cultural genocide, being robbed of our history, culture, and the very things that make us Southrons.  The South has been enslaved for over 140 years, in parts, and it is likely to continue until enough of us rise up and drive them damn yankees back.

Deo Vindice! Remember the slaughter of Vicksburg!

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #65 on: May 04, 2004, 01:30:32 PM »

As a bonified Yankee transplant living south of the Potomac & north of the James, I fully agree with Shultz.  

out with the squatters! Grin

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« Reply #66 on: May 04, 2004, 01:51:11 PM »

Quote
Does she have ancestors who fought in the war?

Her ancestors were too busy laboring under Prussian rule near Gdansk to fight in the Civil War.

Mine, however, were newly arrived German immigrants living around Cumberland, MD who fought for...

...the Union!  Cheesy

Quote
Remember the slaughter of Vicksburg!

Remember Andersonville!
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« Reply #67 on: May 04, 2004, 01:54:07 PM »

http://www.vaiden.net/tattprnt1.jpg

And yes that is a Roman Catholic Priest who wrote that poem, and others among which is my favorite poem "The Sword of Lee."  He was a chaplain in the Army of Northern VA and is considered by many of us Southrons to be a natoinal hero.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #68 on: May 04, 2004, 02:02:17 PM »

That's a nice poem.  

Did I mention I found my old Confederate flag (I believe it was the "second" one, kind of like the Polish flag, but with a stars and bars in the left corner) while cleaning out some boxes I have stashed at my parents' house.  It was nice and folded respectfully, so don't get your knickers in a twist.  Would you happen to like to give it a good home?  It's just sitting, unfurled, in a box at home right now.

I have a portrait of Robert E. Lee hanging in my room as well.  Is okay for a Yank like me to have such things?
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« Reply #69 on: May 04, 2004, 02:11:32 PM »

It has the southron Cross in the upper left hand corner?  is it plain white everywhere else? or is there a red band down the right hand side?  If it is plain white, it is the Second Nation Flag of the Confederacy and is nicknamed "The Stainless Banner." It was only used for about a year and a half because it could easily be mistaken on a still day for a surrendor flag.  If it has a red band down the right hand side it is the Third National flag of the CSA and was nicknamed "Third National."  It was only used for about 6 months due to Appomatix, but remains the official flag of the confederacy today.

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« Reply #70 on: May 04, 2004, 02:21:58 PM »

Wondering if I should bring up that General Lee was an Episcopalian... and that Gen. Leonidas Polk was also an Episcopal Bishop...  I don't *think* that could count as 'proseletizing"

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« Reply #71 on: May 04, 2004, 02:27:21 PM »

Jefferson Davis was also an Episcopalean and a personal friend of Pius IX.

General Thomas Jackson (AKA, albeit against his personal wishes, Stonewall) was a Presbyterian Minister.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #72 on: May 04, 2004, 02:31:17 PM »

Speaking as a SOUTHERNER, I'm not sad my 'culture' has gone away due to 'cultural genocide.'  That's the nature of the world.  The winners get to write the history books.  I'm about 1/8th Cherokee but don't consider myself 'culturally' Native American.  

Preserving culture is an admirable thing but it's not possible if you have intermarriage and I doubt any of us would argue against intermarriage since that borders on racism.  

Our culture is ascendent now but it will disappear and a thousand years from now, we'll be like the ancient Greeks.  They'll sift through bits of Tom Clancy novels and try to figure out what made us tick.  

Was what happened in Japan and Germany after WWII "cultural genocide?"  Probably at least with regards to Japan.  Japan had no history of democracy but we imposed our western democracy on them.  They lost and that's what happens when you lose.  It's not nice but war is hell, as they say.  What happened to Saxon culture?  My ancestors came from England.  Who knows whether they were saxon.  That culture is long gone because they lost.  

And practically speaking I'm glad that I'm an American first and a southerner second.  My grandfather fought for this country in WWII.  I'm a lot closer to him than my ever so far back grandfather who fought for the Confederacy.  And I also know the painful history associated with my ever so far back grandfather.  My grandmother grew up in a town that until the 1960's had a sign telling black people that they weren't allowed to spend the night in town.  My parents went to segregated schools.  And our "southern way of life" was used to justify segregation so it will be tainted in my mind.  As it will be in the mind of most southerners.  
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« Reply #73 on: May 04, 2004, 02:34:26 PM »

It's the Third National, that's it.  I got the direction of the red and white mixed up.  As I said in my PM, if you want it, it's yours.

I'll be careful not to send that glorious Pennsylvania flag I found in the same box to you, too. Wink
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« Reply #74 on: May 04, 2004, 02:58:18 PM »

"Was what happened in Japan and Germany after WWII "cultural genocide?"  Probably at least with regards to Japan.  Japan had no history of democracy but we imposed our western democracy on them."

Well, yes and no.  Cultural genocide it wasn't ... Japan is still very, well, Japanese to say the least, and the democracy that they ended up adopting, even if it was initially compelled, ended up being a very Japanese kind of democracy, one which reflected Japanese cultural norms as much as Western ones.

I once read somewhere that one way to understand Japan is the three As .. adopt, adapt, adept.  Adopt something from outside Japan (whether calligraphy, Buddhism, or baseball), adapt it to Japanese culture (creating Kanji, Zen or besu-boru) and in the process become rather adept at it.   Yes the Japanese use Chinese characters, but they've Japanified them, as they have with Buddhism, adapting them to Japanese needs, proclivities and culture.  The same can be said for the democratic institutions that Japan was forced to adopt after WWII.  Japan is extremely good at this process of cultural borrowing, and it really began long before WWII, and I think this helped what happened in the aftermath of WWII be much less of a cultural genocide than it otherwise could have been.  

But Japan is a fairly unique case in this regard, I think, because it has a long, long history of successful cultural borrowing.

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« Reply #75 on: May 04, 2004, 03:10:22 PM »

And can one say the same thing of Southron culture today? does our government represent our cultural heritage and interests?  absolutely not.  We have been dumped by the democrat party for our general dislike of big government and dumped by the Republican party for the same thing.  There is nothing left in our culture of what it once was.

And yes Jennifer, I am against southrons marrying yankees.

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« Reply #76 on: May 04, 2004, 03:22:25 PM »

A long history of cultural "borrowing" but also a long history of maintaining a core of uniformity as it were.  I have been collecting books and materials on Japan for sometime and have some interesting things, in particular, from the Occupation after WWII (both from American and Japanese writers).  There were political movements for democracy in Japan before WWII.  While it is common for Japan to be presented as a uniform culture, that is not the actual case.  But that is not the subject for this thread I suppose.  If anyone is interested, perhaps we can start another.

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« Reply #77 on: May 04, 2004, 03:23:09 PM »

And can one say the same thing of Southron culture today? does our government represent our cultural heritage and interests?  absolutely not.  We have been dumped by the democrat party for our general dislike of big government and dumped by the Republican party for the same thing.  There is nothing left in our culture of what it once was.

But what was our culture?  I think there's a tendency to ascribe things that people find attractive to southern culture.  For example, "dislike of big government."  Was there "dislike of big government" in the southern colonies?  The southern and northern colonies were obviously different but given that the northern colonies were settled by religious dissenters, one might argue that the north has more of a cultural suspicion of "big government."  

What are our "cultural heritage and interests?"  Rural interests are not fundamentally southern.  Religious fundamentalism can't even be said to be southern culture because the northern religious dissenters were more 'anti-establishment' religion-wise than then southern Episcopals.  Have you read Knox's Enthusiasm?  The puritans in MA and the Quakers in PA are more truly the fathers of fundamentalism.  

In the south, we have a different musical tradition because we've been influenced by the music of African slaves but that's not "our" culture in a strict sense.  

Certainly the democratic party is not our culture.  

And it's not correct to say that "we've" been dumped by the Republican party given that the Republican party knows they have to win to south to stay in the white house.  

I would argue that everything you would identify as part of southern culture can be found in the north and the west so is more properly seen as american culture.  I would also argue that everything you'd identify as southern culture can't truly be found in a 'pure' sense in the south.    

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And yes Jennifer, I am against southrons marrying yankees.

Joe Zollars

That's absurd.  There are no true southerners left.
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« Reply #78 on: May 04, 2004, 03:26:06 PM »

A long history of cultural "borrowing" but also a long history of maintaining a core of uniformity as it were.  I have been collecting books and materials on Japan for sometime and have some interesting things, in particular, from the Occupation after WWII (both from American and Japanese writers).  There were political movements for democracy in Japan before WWII.  While it is common for Japan to be presented as a uniform culture, that is not the actual case.  But that is not the subject for this thread I suppose.  If anyone is interested, perhaps we can start another.

Ebor

I'd like to know more about Japan.  This issue of 'culture' is interesting.  I believe very strongly there's no such thing as 'pure' culture so I get suspicious when I hear others complain about 'cultural genocide.'  I also think that many of us in the west want to 'protect' other cultures in an unatural way.  One could (IMHO) that 'cultural genocide' is natural.  Groups are always in conflict and one group will always win and another will lose.  Protecting a culture from that natural 'evolution' is inherently unnatural.
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« Reply #79 on: May 04, 2004, 03:30:27 PM »

  That's absurd.  There are no true southerners left.  

Are you saying that Zollars is not a Southerner? Thems fightin' words!!  Wink
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« Reply #80 on: May 04, 2004, 03:33:29 PM »

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And about this whole War of Rebelion junk, how could we rebel against something that had always been a voluntary union of sovreign (key word sovreign) republics.  What the south did was excercise their constitutional right to keep the feds from taking our rights and liberties.  Of course since the War, nothing has been voluntary--particularly for us Southrons who have been at the brunt end of over 140 years of cultural genocide, being robbed of our history, culture, and the very things that make us Southrons.  The South has been enslaved for over 140 years, in parts, and it is likely to continue until enough of us rise up and drive them damn yankees back.

This is very true. Growing up & learning about this conflict & the way it's portrayed in the schools, I always thought the rebels were the bad guys until I actually took some interest in it myself & read what it was all really about. My family came from Missourri & I had relatives who fought for the Missourri Militia. I thought they had one of the best looking battle flags around. It's blue with a big white christian cross in the middle. Some of the bloodiest battles took place in south eastern missourri during the time of the war. They didn't have large conflicts, but it was a lot of smaller conflicts. I think I read somewhere that the most conflicts took place in this region, but I could be wrong. It was pretty bad because you had parts of the state divided along yankee/confederate lines.

Quote
And yes that is a Roman Catholic Priest who wrote that poem, and others among which is my favorite poem "The Sword of Lee."  He was a chaplain in the Army of Northern VA and is considered by many of us Southrons to be a natoinal hero.

From what I have read, Rome was on the side of the South during the conflict.

Quote
I have a portrait of Robert E. Lee hanging in my room as well.  Is okay for a Yank like me to have such things?

I used to have two of Lee hanging on my wall. One of them showed him reading the bible to a young girl with the caption, "The Christian General."

Quote
And can one say the same thing of Southron culture today? does our government represent our cultural heritage and interests?  absolutely not.  We have been dumped by the democrat party for our general dislike of big government and dumped by the Republican party for the same thing.  There is nothing left in our culture of what it once was.
Where are the Dixiecrats to go???




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« Reply #81 on: May 04, 2004, 03:35:59 PM »

Don't be absurd Peter.  I AM a Southroner and therefore could never fight a lady.

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« Reply #82 on: May 04, 2004, 03:38:44 PM »

Jennifer, I said we have been dumped by the Republican party because it no longer represents or cares to represent our culture.

Nacho, that sounds like a picture I would like.  do you know where I can buy copies of it?  

Joe Zollars

PS.  Nacho I also had relatives that fought with the Bushwackers, including some that rode with MO's most famous of Roman Catholics--Quantrail.

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« Reply #83 on: May 04, 2004, 03:41:28 PM »

Are you saying that Zollars is not a Southerner? Thems fightin' words!!  Wink

First, he lives in Kansas.  Second, there's been so much migration and intermarriage that there are few (if any) people with a truly southern heritage left in the south.  

As for Joe's comments about "not fighting a lady" because he's "southern," that proves my point about ascribing attractive traits to "southern" heritage.  Chivalry is not "southern."  To make that suggestion would to be argue that it didn't exist in the north, which it did.  

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« Reply #84 on: May 04, 2004, 03:43:39 PM »

Jennifer, I said we have been dumped by the Republican party because it no longer represents or cares to represent our culture.

Yes, but what you claim is "our" culture isn't really "our" culture.  Small government isn't uniquely southern.  In fact one could argue that the Jim Crow laws indicate greater support for the power of government over social mores.  

You still have not identified a uniquely southern trait that is somehow not represented by the republicans.  

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« Reply #85 on: May 04, 2004, 03:56:39 PM »

English isn't uniquely american.  thus is it part of american Cultuer? of course it is.  a culture is a mixture of various elements that may or may not exist in any other cultures.

As for my living in Kansas, yes I do at hte moment.  I was born in missouri (but just barely over the border from my beloved nation of Arkansas) but spent all my life up until a couple years ago in Arkansas.  Even the particular part of Kansas I was in was controlled by teh CSA during the War.

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« Reply #86 on: May 04, 2004, 04:04:57 PM »

That doesn't matter because even your "beloved nation of Arkansas" (I'm sorry but as someone who has driven through Ark a few times, it cracks me up to see "beloved nation of Arkansas.") has been "corrupted" by "nothernism."  

Yes it's true that english isn't uniquely american but is part of our american culture but our english is different.  

You talk about southern culture but can't name what makes southern culture unique.  In order for it to make the south unique it would have be manifested differently in the south.  

Furthermore there was never a singular southern culture.  The planters were different from the crackers.  The englishman were different from the scots.  Even the english weren't the same depending on where they were from in England.
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« Reply #87 on: May 04, 2004, 04:11:19 PM »

When I took a friend to Antiedam, they indicated to me the Maryland memorial and said that it commemorated eight units. And when I asked, "How many on each side?" they said "5 union and 3 confederate". On the state house grounds we have Roger B. Taney on one side and Thurgood Marshall on the other. My father is from N. Carolina and my mother is from Ohio. Therefore I remain serenely above it all as I sit to the West of the M-D line.

But I still don't have any use for the claims of Islam.
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« Reply #88 on: May 04, 2004, 04:38:35 PM »

Jennifer, the specific elements of southron culture are not unique (at least in many cases) but southron culture overall is unique in how the various elements are mixed together.  For more information on this, see the LoS Official Website.  Otherwise I think we should drop the discussion now as it is a highjacking of this thread and not apropriate for this forum in general.

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« Reply #89 on: May 04, 2004, 04:38:39 PM »

I'd like to know more about Japan.  This issue of 'culture' is interesting.  I believe very strongly there's no such thing as 'pure' culture so I get suspicious when I hear others complain about 'cultural genocide.'  I also think that many of us in the west want to 'protect' other cultures in an unatural way.  One could (IMHO) that 'cultural genocide' is natural.  Groups are always in conflict and one group will always win and another will lose.  Protecting a culture from that natural 'evolution' is inherently unnatural.  

I will ask the admins if it is alright to start a thread about Japan, in Other Board, maybe, if you like.  If you get me started, I probably will go deep into the history and geography and how they shape the culture (unless someone smacks me with a 2x4) as well as the religious systems there (Shinto is native, but Buddhism was worked in).  And how there are different social groups that aren't usually talked about as much: the Ainu in the north, people of Korean extraction that though they have been in Japan for generations are catagorized as "Korean" and the Burakumin, "Untouchables" of a kind.  Japan is not a monolith.

Ebor
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« Reply #90 on: May 04, 2004, 04:42:36 PM »

I forgot to add that I realize many of those catalysts don't affect terrorists' decision to become blood-thirsty killers- they are just following Sharias, Haddith, and the Koran (in their eyes no doubt).

So some spiritual remedies don't work- just got to wipe 'em out.
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« Reply #91 on: May 04, 2004, 04:47:48 PM »

  Eastern Orthodox with Southern twang! Now that is true inculturation!
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« Reply #92 on: May 04, 2004, 04:54:53 PM »

hehe.

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« Reply #93 on: May 04, 2004, 05:16:48 PM »

Man am I glad my family only immigrated from Germany after the 1940s...  too many complications (though I think if we had been here back in the day we woulda fought for the CSA).
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« Reply #94 on: May 04, 2004, 05:46:24 PM »

Basically to sum it all up:

We know not all muslim are terrorists, its just that most of the terrorist actiions comitted in the world today are done by Muslims.

We know Christian groups have been terrorists as well......The IRA from Ireland, The Chetniks, The Ustase and The VMRO from the former balkans.....but more or less these organizations were terrorist before we were a global community so not to much was really known about them through out the world.

Then you also have your European Brigades such as the Red Brigade, Nov 11 (the greek one I believe)  these groups are basically communist in the ideology so I wouldn't classify them as christians


Now days if some one farts in a hut in africa we can find out in a matter of seconds....so when these so called Muslim Freedom fighters blow up pizza shops, or fly planes into buildings, or attach bombs to themselves and target buses etc........it just gets to the point where lately the terrorist groups have been muslim.


This boils down to these muslim fundamentalist that hate the way we live in the western world......and blame all of there problems on the western world.......instead of looking inside and placing the blame on themselves.

What gets me is that the main rallying point is a homeland for Palestine...but doesn't 60% of palestine fall into what is now present day Jordan?  Why hasn't there been suicide bombings there...maybe because they are muslim......we all know that is the reason why there is no bombings in Jordan.  We all know that the gov'ts in the middle east are dictatorships more or less......why hasnt there been mass up risings to protest the dictatorships.

The answer is simple.  The muslims want to control the middle east, they want to get rid of the christian and jewish sites in the middle east. If it was really for a Palestinian homeland what is happening in Isreal should be happining in Jordan.

To me the muslims are waging a holy war against non muslims under the disguise of a free Palestinian state....thats BS....cause if a Palestinian state was important they would be pressuring Jordan to give up some parts of its land as well.

Its a holy war that the muslims are fighting in the middle east....and they are now striking the gov'ts that are supporting the Israelis ............I support the right of Israel to exist only for the fact that I have never seen or heard of a christian church being turned into a jewish temple.......but I have seen and heard of christian churches turned into mosques by muslims.

This isn't about a palestinian homeland its about controling the religous center of the world.  I would rather have it under Israeli control then under Arab Muslim control........I am just being honest about that.

Idealy I would make the whole religous areas of the world a world heritage site run by the UN......no one nation can claim it but the world could.....let the UN run it.  Since its important to the three major religions of the world......let the world run the religous area's in that region.

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« Reply #95 on: May 04, 2004, 06:04:28 PM »

Canmak, you make some good arguements, but your points about Jordan and Palestine aren't accurate.  The British Mandate of Palestine was divided after 1948 between Israel, Egypt and Trans-Jordan.  The portion alloted to Egypt (the Gaza Strip) and the portion alloted to Jordan (the west bank) were both conquored and occupied by Israel in 1967.  Hence, no part of the original territory of Palestine is under anyone's control but Israel.  There are large numbers of Palestinian refugees who were ethnically cleansed by the Israelis who now live in Jordanian territory.  The large influx of Palestinians into Jordan has lead to some instability in that moderate state and the large number of Palestinians taking refuge in Lebanon tilted the the Religious balance in favor of Islam and contributed to the bloody civil war in that country.
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« Reply #96 on: May 04, 2004, 06:15:53 PM »

some very good arguments Canmak, but I don't agree entirely.  A good many Palastenians are actually Orthodox and other Christians.  These people are mowed down both by Isrealies and by Mohamadean Palastenians.  

At this stage in the game both a Palastinian state and the Isrealie state would/are be friendly towards Christian pilgrims because lets face it, we make up the bulk of the economy in the region.  Historically however, Mohamadean states have not been particularly friendly to either Christians living in the area or pilgrims.

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« Reply #97 on: May 04, 2004, 07:27:46 PM »

I will ask the admins if it is alright to start a thread about Japan, in Other Board, maybe, if you like.  If you get me started, I probably will go deep into the history and geography and how they shape the culture (unless someone smacks me with a 2x4) as well as the religious systems there (Shinto is native, but Buddhism was worked in).  And how there are different social groups that aren't usually talked about as much: the Ainu in the north, people of Korean extraction that though they have been in Japan for generations are catagorized as "Korean" and the Burakumin, "Untouchables" of a kind.  Japan is not a monolith.

Ebor

Ebor,

I would not be able to contribute to such a thread, but I would like to see it.  I remember one of the new posters who is a member of the SCA also had a hobby of Japanese history.  Perhaps that would draw him out so he can post more.  Grin
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« Reply #98 on: May 04, 2004, 10:20:20 PM »

Thank you, David.  I've checked with Dustin and he said it was fine.  There's a new poster with SCA and Japan?  Most excellent.  Now to figure out where to start...  


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« Reply #99 on: May 04, 2004, 10:24:11 PM »

Quote
I forgot to add that I realize many of those catalysts don't affect terrorists' decision to become blood-thirsty killers- they are just following Sharias, Haddith, and the Koran (in their eyes no doubt).

So some spiritual remedies don't work- just got to wipe 'em out.

Amen brother!!!!

It's nice to see a lot of these new guys on here who have some common sense!!!

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« Reply #100 on: May 05, 2004, 12:57:12 AM »

Don't you people see that Palestine is Jordan and vice versa....Palestine is not the area that only covers what now is Israel...........but that is the area that there are bombs.......ask yourselves why, lets be honest about this.....they want to make a Muslim dominated region there...they do not want any other religion represented in the middle east.....if you honestly think they do then you are blind.  

Here are some quotes from arabs themselves:


Concerning Palestine East Of The River Jordan
On August 23,1959, the Prime Minister of Jordan stated, "We are the Government of Palestine, the army of Palestine and the refugees of Palestine."

Each day brings me closer to the realization that Palestine, as it wants to exist within the boundary of Israel, and impose this view on the world community, is a farce... an imaginative place with imaginative people. History proves over and over again that JORDAN IS INDEED PALESTINE.

Here are several quotes from "officials" in the so-called Palestinian community. LET THEM SPEAK FOR THEMSELVES!!!!

"Palestine and Transjordan are one, for Palestine is the coastline and Transjordan the hinterland of the same country."

- King Abdullah, at the Meeting of the Arab League, Cairo, 12th April 1948

"Let us not forget the East Bank of the (River) Jordan, where seventy per cent of the inhabitants belong to the Palestinian nation."

- George Habash, leader of the PFLP section of the PLO, writing in the PLO publication Sha-un Falastinia, February 1970

"Palestine is Jordan and Jordan is Palestine; there is one people and one land, with one history and one and the same fate."

- Prince Hassan, brother of King Hussein, addressing the Jordanian National Assembly, 2nd February 1970

"There is no family on the East Bank of the river (Jordan) that does not have relatives on the West Bank ... no family in the west that does not have branches in the east."

- King Hussein, addressing the Jordanian National Assembly, 2nd February 1972

"We consider it necessary to clarify to one and all, in the Arab world and outside, that the PALESTINIAN PEOPLE with its nobility and conscience is to be found HERE on the EAST Bank (of the Jordan River), The WEST Bank and the Gaza Strip. Its overwhelming majority is HERE and nowhere else."

- King Hussein, quoted in An-Hahar, Beirut, 24th August 1972

"The Palestinians here constitute not less than one half of the members of the armed forces. They and their brothers, the sons of Transjordan, constitute the members of one family who are equal in everything, in rights and duties." (Quoted by BBC Monitoring Service)

- King Hussein, on Amman Radio, 3rd February 1973

"There are, as well, links of geography and history, and a wide range of interests between the two Banks (of the River Jordan) which have grown stronger over the past twenty years. Let us not forget that el-Salt and Nablus were within the same district - el-Balka - during the Ottoman period, and that family and commercial ties bound the two cities together."

- Hamdi Ken'an, former Mayor of Nablus, writing in the newspaper Al-Quds, 14th March 1973

"The new Jordan, which emerged in 1949, was the creation of the Palestinians of the West Bank and their brothers in the East. While Israel was the negation of the Palestinian right of self-determination, unified Jordan was the expression of it."

- Sherif Al-Hamid Sharaf, Representative of Jordan at the UN Security Council, 11th June 1973

Past "President Bourguiba (of Tunisia) considers Jordan an artificial creation presented by Great Britain to King Abdullah. But he accepts Palestine and the Palestinians as an existing and primary fact since the days of the Pharaohs. Israel, too, he considers as a primary entity. However, Arab history makes no distinction between Jordanians, Syrians and Palestinians. Most of them hail from the same Arab race, which arrived in the region with the Arab Moslem conquest."

- Editorial Comment in the Jordanian Armed Forces' weekly, Al-Aqsa, Amman, 11th July 1973

"With all respect to King Hussein, I suggest that the Emirate of Transjordan was created from oil cloth by Great Britain, which for this purpose cut up ancient Palestine. To this desert territory to the bast of the Jordan (River)., it gave the name Transjordan. But there is nothing in history which carries this name. While since our earliest time there was Palestine and Palestinians. I maintain that the matter of Transjordan is an artificial one, and that Palestine is the basic problem. King Hussein should submit to the wishes of the people, in accordance with the principles of democracy and self-determination, so as-to avoid the fate of his grandfather, Abdullah, or of his cousin, Feisal, both of whom were assassinated."

- Past President Bourguiba of Tunisia, in a public statement, July 1973

"The Palestinians and the Jordanians have created on this soil since 1948 one family - all of whose children have equal rights and obligations."

- King Hussein, addressing an American Delegation, 19th February 1975

"How much better off Hussein would be if he had been induced to abandon his pose as a benevolent 'host' to 'refugees' and to affirm the fact that Jordan is the Palestinian Arab nation-state, just as Israel is the Palestinian Jewish nation-state."

- Editorial Comment in the publication The Economist of 19th July 1975

"Palestine and Jordan were both (by then) under British Mandate, but as my grandfather pointed out in his memoirs, they were hardly separate countries. Transjordan being to the east of the River Jordan, it formed in a sense, the interior of Palestine."

- King Hussein, writing in his Memoirs

"...those fishing in troubled waters will not succeed in dividing our people, which extends to both sides of the (River) Jordan, in spite of the artificial boundaries established by the Colonial Office and Winston Churchill half a century ago."

- Yassir Arafat, in a statement to Eric Roleau

"Palestinian Arabs hold seventy-five per cent of all government jobs in Jordan."

- The Sunday newspaper The Observer of 2nd March 1976

"Palestinian Arabs control over seventy per cent of Jordan's economy."

- The Egyptian newspaper Al Ahram of 5th March 1976

"There should be a kind of linkage because Jordanians and Palestinians are considered by the PLO as one people."

- Farouk Kadoumi, head of the PLO Political Department, quoted in Newsweek, 14th March 1977

"Along these lines, the West German Der Spiegel magazine this month cited Dr George Habash, leader of one of the Palestinian organizations, as saying that 70 per cent of Jordan's population are Palestinians and that the power in Jordan should be seized." (Translated by BBC Monitoring Service)

- From a commentary which was broadcast by Radio Amman, 30th June 1980

"Jordan is not just another Arab state with regard to Palestine but, rather, Jordan is Palestine and Palestine is Jordan in terms of territory, national identity, sufferings, hopes and aspirations, both day and night. Though we are all Arabs and our point of departure is that we are all members of the same people, the Palestinian-Jordanian nation is one and unique, and different from those of the other Arab states."

- Marwan al Hamoud, member of the Jordanian National Consultative Council and former Minister of Agriculture, quoted by Al Rai, Amman, 24th September 1980

"The potential weak spot in Jordan is that most of the population are not, strictly speaking, Jordanian at all, but Palestinian. An estimated 60 per cent of the country's 2,500,000 people are Palestinians ... Most of these hold Jordanian passports, and many are integrated into Jordanian society."

- Richard Owen, in an article published in The Times, 14th November 1980

"There is no moral justification for a second Palestine."
- The Freeman Center (September 3, 1993)


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« Reply #101 on: May 05, 2004, 01:05:12 AM »

After you read all those quotes Ask yourselves why is it there no suicide bombings in Jordan?  If Yassar Arafat the leader of the so called Palestinians says Jordan is Palestine then why isn't there bombs there.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/907340/posts

check it out
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« Reply #102 on: May 05, 2004, 06:08:09 AM »


Last week I was following links and came to a blog written by a Muslim gentleman living in Saudi Arabia.  He is very much against the Muttawa (the "religious police") and thought that Abp. Carey (actually, being retired I think he's Lord Carey now) "hit the nail on the head".  Right now the blog is not being up dated as things are unsettled in S.A. and if he were to be found out, the authorities would not be....indifferent, let's say.
I'll send you the URL if you want.  It's an amazing site and dedicated to the 15 girls who died in the Makkah school fire because the Muttawa wouldn't let them out without their abaya and veil.  He doesn't mince words about some of the evil treatment of women and other things in S.A.

Ebor

Yes, please post the URL, it would be good to read the views of this man to balance the propaganda of United.

Thanks,

Brigid
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« Reply #103 on: May 08, 2004, 01:00:29 AM »

Indeed, Phil, that was an incredibly racist thing to say.  I have lived in overwhelmingly immigrant neighborhoods (usually South American but sometimes Asian) and I have never, ever seen an abuse of welfare by such immigrants.  If anything, they work longer and harder than the average white American living in the same neighborhood.

You denounce racism, but then turn around and use it against whites.

I lived in Texas and Florida for many years and worked side-by-side with Latinos on construction jobs and a very high number were on welfare and using other government programs. They made no secret about it. Just because they work, doesn't mean they're not taking an assortment of handouts.

I have no doubt that if America cut out all the freebies, immigration will drop like a rock. After all, there's nobody starving in Mexico. I saw plenty of plump Mexicans.

I think its ridiculous that a person comes here (legally or illegally) and heads straight for a government office for some kind of handout.  In years past, nobody was allowed to come to America if they were suspected of becoming a "public charge." Now the situation is practically reversed - we seem to only allow people who become public charges!

A couple of years ago I talked to a women from England who immigrated to the US. Here's someone with job skills, speaks English, a Christian, and can be easily assimilated, but the INS made her jump through all kinds of hoops for years before allowing her to become a citizen.

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« Reply #104 on: May 08, 2004, 01:05:18 AM »

here here.  Here here!

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #105 on: May 08, 2004, 02:43:10 AM »

Quote
You denounce racism, but then turn around and use it against whites.

I lived in Texas and Florida for many years and worked side-by-side with Latinos on construction jobs and a very high number were on welfare and using other government programs. They made no secret about it. Just because they work, doesn't mean they're not taking an assortment of handouts.

I have no doubt that if America cut out all the freebies, immigration will drop like a rock. After all, there's nobody starving in Mexico. I saw plenty of plump Mexicans.

I think its ridiculous that a person comes here (legally or illegally) and heads straight for a government office for some kind of handout.  In years past, nobody was allowed to come to America if they were suspected of becoming a "public charge." Now the situation is practically reversed - we seem to only allow people who become public charges!

A couple of years ago I talked to a women from England who immigrated to the US. Here's someone with job skills, speaks English, a Christian, and can be easily assimilated, but the INS made her jump through all kinds of hoops for years before allowing her to become a citizen.

I agree with some of of the things you are saying here. I have Russian friends & can't beleive tha amount of stuff they get away with. I also heard that about 1/5 of the russian immigrants they let in have criminal records in thier home country. I guess that's what happens when you let a lot of PC sensitive bone head liberals run our system.

I also disagree with our "lottery" system of letting anyone in. I think the best & brightest with a good work history, education, and a clean record should have first priority. Americans are starting to get real tired of the current system.  

On the other hand, I do feel compassion for the less fortunate that really want to fulfill the "american dream." I'm not ignorant of who's cleaning toilets & offices at night & working our fields, which most americans don't have the "dignity" to do.What we need to do is cut out the welfare that is so easy for some people to get & provide these people with services that are going to help themselves & thier families. I think that better "educating" these people may be key for success and giving them as many options as possible. Instead of just giving them handouts, there could be government services that help new immigrants find work & maybe give incentives to companies that hire such people.
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« Reply #106 on: May 08, 2004, 03:15:58 AM »

there are many immense talents both among immigrants and natural citizens that are being squandered by the welfare state.

Michael Oleska also stated that the system was literally destroying the native alaskan tribes.

Joe Zollars
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« Reply #107 on: May 08, 2004, 04:11:22 AM »

On the other hand, I do feel compassion for the less fortunate that really want to fulfill the "american dream."

Yes, but are things really that bad in their country, or is it just a matter of them wanting more? Or wanting it for free?

Here's another issue directly related to immigration. How much crowding do we want? I go into cities and the congestion makes me not want to come back. More people only means more congestion.

Quote
I'm not ignorant of who's cleaning toilets & offices at night & working our fields, which most americans don't have the "dignity" to do.What we need to do is cut out the welfare that is so easy for some people to get & provide these people with services that are going to help themselves & thier families. I think that better "educating" these people may be key for success and giving them as many options as possible. Instead of just giving them handouts, there could be government services that help new immigrants find work & maybe give incentives to companies that hire such people.    

I suppose we can have a certain amount of immigration, but the problem now its out of control. I think we need to stop all of it for at least ten years, but the powers that be want to keep the floodgates open. The liberals have this idea that the more "diverse" America becomes the better. The Repubs mostly want the cheap labor. The net result is the wishes of average American is simply ignored. Well, so much for democracy.

From an Orthodox persepctive, I have to wonder why we should want any non-Orthodox immigrants? I realize its unreasonable to think that can ever be the case, but I'm just being pragmatic. Having Muslims and other non-Christians coming here really isn't helping us any. I don't think allowing America to become more non-Christian will do anything but further weaken what Christian traditions we have left - especially with the way the liberals are inclined to pander to anything that's not Christian.

Oh well, sometimes I get a headache thinking about it.

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« Reply #108 on: May 08, 2004, 08:06:06 AM »

Quote
Nacho: I agree with some of of the things you are saying here. I have Russian friends & can't beleive tha amount of stuff they get away with. I also heard that about 1/5 of the russian immigrants they let in have criminal records in thier home country. I guess that's what happens when you let a lot of PC sensitive bone head liberals run our system.

I have seen and stood in the mile-long line of Russians, all hoping for visas, outside the U.S. Embassy in Moscow. I have also experienced the many hurdles that Russians must jump before being allowed to come to this country, even temporarily.

I can tell you firsthand, Russians don't get into this country very easily. I would be really surprised if those with criminal records - beyond misdemeanors - get to come at all (unless some big time bucks are changing hands).

They have no "PC sensitive bone head liberals" pulling strings for them - libs don't pull strings for any Europeans.
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« Reply #109 on: May 08, 2004, 08:26:41 PM »

I think its ridiculous that a person comes here (legally or illegally) and heads straight for a government office for some kind of handout.  In years past, nobody was allowed to come to America if they were suspected of becoming a "public charge." Now the situation is practically reversed - we seem to only allow people who become public charges!

I think it's ridiculous that the original poster seemed to assume that all third world people were the way he was describing them.  I know at least one large group of people who did not fit the bill in my experience, and I let it be known.  Sure there are people who abuse the system, but not all.  I know immigrants who abuse the system, I know immigrants who don't; likewise, I know "natives" who are hard workers, and "natives" looking for every handout imaginable.  You can't generalise.

Quote
From an Orthodox persepctive, I have to wonder why we should want any non-Orthodox immigrants? I realize its unreasonable to think that can ever be the case, but I'm just being pragmatic. Having Muslims and other non-Christians coming here really isn't helping us any. I don't think allowing America to become more non-Christian will do anything but further weaken what Christian traditions we have left - especially with the way the liberals are inclined to pander to anything that's not Christian.

From a different type of Orthodox perspective, all the Orthodox in America are the result of immigration of one type or another; Orthodoxy isn't the native religion in the New World as it is in countries of the Old.  I understand the point you are making, but cannot bring myself to say "I'm OK, but X is not", when we are on an equal footing, being of religions which, however different from each other, are still completely different from the majority religion here.  

What Christian traditions do we have left in America, btw?  As far as I'm concerned, this stopped being a Christian nation a long time ago.  

Quote
I have seen and stood in the mile-long line of Russians, all hoping for visas, outside the U.S. Embassy in Moscow. I have also experienced the many hurdles that Russians must jump before being allowed to come to this country, even temporarily.

I can tell you firsthand, Russians don't get into this country very easily. I would be really surprised if those with criminal records - beyond misdemeanors - get to come at all (unless some big time bucks are changing hands).

I agree with Linus.  My uncle has been in this country legally since 1996 (when he came here to see his brother--my father--on his deathbed), trying to legally achieve immigrant status.  He's been on visitor visas and work visas.  As of right now, he still doesn't have immigrant status, and is still working hard to get it, even though he speaks the language, has a degree, is a medical professional, has worked here for years, is a law abiding resident, and has been such in a few countries, etc., etc., etc.  Basically, if you obey the law and work with the legal process, thus showing respect for the ways of the US, it is extremely difficult to get into this country.  If you disobey, you can have a job, a residence, and public education (maybe?) as soon as you get off your plane, boat, or inner tube.
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« Reply #110 on: May 09, 2004, 12:14:31 AM »

From a different type of Orthodox perspective, all the Orthodox in America are the result of immigration of one type or another; Orthodoxy isn't the native religion in the New World as it is in countries of the Old.  I understand the point you are making, but cannot bring myself to say "I'm OK, but X is not", when we are on an equal footing, being of religions which, however different from each other, are still completely different from the majority religion here.


I live in an area that had a lot of immigration years ago from Eastern Europe and for that reason we have a higher number of Orthodox churches here. But the current immigration situation is very different from that when Orthodox Christians came here in large numbers. Back then there was no welfare state to be abused and even the American-born citizens respected the Slavic people for honesty and willingness to work hard. And they weren't inclined to crime like some immigrant groups today. The point is that just because we had immigration in the past, doesn't mean we always have to have it. Likewise, just because some immigrants make good citizens, doesn't mean we must accept anyone who wants to come.

I think whether immigrants are to be admitted, is something that should be decided by the citizens and not the prospective immigrant. Just because someone wants to come here, doesn't mean they have some right to come. After all, everybody would like to have things, but that doesn't mean we have an automatic right to these things.

Personally, I think its a mistake to allow Muslims to come here, since, sooner or later, when they gain enough confidence, they will begin to attack Christianity and try to impose their values and beliefs on us. For example, the folks in Michigan now have to put up with Muslim prayers being blasted over loudspeakers in their town. That is just the beginning, I have no doubt.

Quote
What Christian traditions do we have left in America, btw?  As far as I'm concerned, this stopped being a Christian nation a long time ago.  I agree with Linus.

You certainly have a point. Compared to even when I was growing up, things have changed drastically in that regard. But I think it will still get worse if things continue.

Quote
My uncle has been in this country legally since 1996 (when he came here to see his brother--my father--on his deathbed), trying to legally achieve immigrant status.  He's been on visitor visas and work visas.  As of right now, he still doesn't have immigrant status, and is still working hard to get it, even though he speaks the language, has a degree, is a medical professional, has worked here for years, is a law abiding resident, and has been such in a few countries, etc., etc., etc.  Basically, if you obey the law and work with the legal process, thus showing respect for the ways of the US, it is extremely difficult to get into this country.  If you disobey, you can have a job, a residence, and public education (maybe?) as soon as you get off your plane, boat, or inner tube.

This is why our immigration mechanism is a joke. Besides immigrants like your uncle who try to obtaion citizenship by abiding by the laws, ILLEGAL immigrants now actually have MORE rights than native born citizens. For example, a number of states give illegal aliens cheaper college tuition than US citizens. Talk about the twilight zone! I also think illegal aliens can even take advantage of affirmative action programs originally designed to help American blacks. Its completely crazy.

But returning to the question of whether we should allow only Christian immigrants, look at Kosovo and what happened there due to uncontrolled immigration or migration of Muslims.

From my perspective, I simply cannot see how allowing Muslims, Hindus, or any other non-Christians into the country strengthens the Church. It only makes things more difficult. And yes, I'm partisan. And I'm not ashamed to be a partisan for Jesus Christ and the Orthodox Church. The immigrants are certainly partisan for their interests. Virtually every immigrant group has some organization that lobbies to keep immigration open to their group and to obtain government benefits. They don't hesitate to look out for their interests.

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« Reply #111 on: May 09, 2004, 11:43:37 AM »

From a different type of Orthodox perspective, all the Orthodox in America are the result of immigration of one type or another; Orthodoxy isn't the native religion in the New World as it is in countries of the Old.  I understand the point you are making, but cannot bring myself to say "I'm OK, but X is not", when we are on an equal footing, being of religions which, however different from each other, are still completely different from the majority religion here.  

What Christian traditions do we have left in America, btw?  As far as I'm concerned, this stopped being a Christian nation a long time ago.  

Don't forget the converts Mor.  Or would that count as immigration from Heterodox religions?

Agree completely.  America stopped being a Christian Nation in its politcs over 100 years ago and in its population within the last 50 years.  Faith just doesn't exist anymore here.

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« Reply #112 on: May 09, 2004, 04:20:55 PM »

Dear Joe,

I'm not forgetting the converts.  But the fact remains that the converts would not have converted if they didn't know about the Orthodox Church, and the Orthodox Church was brought here primarily by immigrants.  So, even if the converts are "native" to the US, they (in an indirect sense), and their Churches (in a more direct sense) are the result of the arrival of Orthodox peoples to this country.
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« Reply #113 on: May 09, 2004, 04:27:07 PM »

ah I see your logic.  Thank God for those immigrants who brought the true faith to these shores.

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« Reply #114 on: May 13, 2004, 07:36:56 PM »

Don't forget the converts Mor.  Or would that count as immigration from Heterodox religions?

Agree completely.  America stopped being a Christian Nation in its politcs over 100 years ago and in its population within the last 50 years.  Faith just doesn't exist anymore here.

Joe Zollars

You have got to be very careful with that last statement of yours. your living in a protestant nation that has a sizable christian following and yes they are christians.
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« Reply #115 on: May 14, 2004, 06:34:26 AM »

"You have got to be very careful with that last statement of yours. your living in a protestant nation that has a sizable christian following and yes they are christians."

In your opinion, but not in mine.  If you are not a part of the Body of Christ, you are not a Christian, regardless of whether you call yourself one or think you are one.  You can believe what you want to believe, but unless you are grafted onto the Body, you are not living in Christ, regardless of the human ideas you might believe about Him.
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« Reply #116 on: May 14, 2004, 06:50:17 AM »

"You have got to be very careful with that last statement of yours. your living in a protestant nation that has a sizable christian following and yes they are christians."

In your opinion, but not in mine.  If you are not a part of the Body of Christ, you are not a Christian, regardless of whether you call yourself one or think you are one.  You can believe what you want to believe, but unless you are grafted onto the Body, you are not living in Christ, regardless of the human ideas you might believe about Him.

Your opinion doesn't matter, because you don't have control over the word "Christian".
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« Reply #117 on: May 14, 2004, 07:07:44 AM »

"You have got to be very careful with that last statement of yours. your living in a protestant nation that has a sizable christian following and yes they are christians."

In your opinion, but not in mine.  If you are not a part of the Body of Christ, you are not a Christian, regardless of whether you call yourself one or think you are one.  You can believe what you want to believe, but unless you are grafted onto the Body, you are not living in Christ, regardless of the human ideas you might believe about Him.

well Brendan.. this is their country ( and orthodoxy is a guest religion here and not native to this land) and they ( protestants) are christians because they follow christ. They might not be part of your church but nevertheless they are christian.

So would it be fair of me to say that you are not christian regardless of wheter you call yourself one or think that you are not.

This would also be like the catholic church in Russia or any other predominately orthodox country saying that those orthodox are not christian....plus add the rest of your statement here.

You contradict the bible with that statement of yours. Remember what saint Paul said about those community that were giving problems? To Saint Paul they were believers even though they were in there present state.
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« Reply #118 on: May 14, 2004, 07:34:55 AM »

well Brendan.. this is their country ( and orthodoxy is a guest religion here and not native to this land) and they

In what way is Protestantism native to the US in a way that excludes Orthodoxy or RCsm from being native?

Were the Native Americans Protestant?

If not then all traditions of Christianity have been brought over.

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« Reply #119 on: May 14, 2004, 09:57:47 AM »

Your opinion doesn't matter, because you don't have control over the word "Christian".


Mine matters as much as yours does, by the way, Keble.  As stated, it is "my opinion", nothing more, nothing less.

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« Reply #120 on: May 14, 2004, 10:33:17 AM »

" this is their country ( and orthodoxy is a guest religion here and not native to this land)"

As Peter has pointed out, Protestantism is not "native", but imported as well, but I will grant that Protestantism is the principal religion in the USA at the present time.

"they ( protestants) are christians because they follow christ"

In my opinion, to be Christian is to be a part of the Body of Christ.  Of course, Protestants can call themselves Christians if they like (that self-definition is not binding at all on me or anyone else), but that does not make them Christian.  To be Christian, in my opinion, is to live "in Christ", and that is only possible if you are of His Body.  Therefore in my opinion, Protestants are not properly regarded as "Christian", but are properly regarded as self-proclaimed followers of Christ who belong to the religion called "Protestantism".

"catholic church in Russia or any other predominately orthodox country saying that those orthodox are not christian"

Except that the Catholic Church affirms, in its own ecclesiology, that the Orthodox are true churches, and that therefore Orthodox are "in" the Body of Christ.  Orthodox say no such thing about non-Orthodox.

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« Reply #121 on: May 14, 2004, 11:09:08 AM »

I have heard ROCOR priests say that members of other communities ARE Christians.

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« Reply #122 on: May 14, 2004, 11:11:58 AM »

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Orthodox say no such thing about non-Orthodox.

Exactly.  I've always labored under the impression that Orthodoxy doesn't say anything either way about the non-Orthodox.
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« Reply #123 on: May 14, 2004, 11:15:43 AM »

Correct, which is why I have been careful to state that this is "my opinion".  As an Orthodox I am allowed that opinion, because the Orthodox Church doesn't say anything dogmatically about those who are outside of her visible communion.
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« Reply #124 on: May 14, 2004, 11:21:56 AM »

Fair enough.
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« Reply #125 on: May 14, 2004, 11:25:10 AM »

Mine matters as much as yours does, by the way, Keble.  As stated, it is "my opinion", nothing more, nothing less.

Well, my opinion doesn't matter either; what matters is the common usage of the word, and in common usage Protestants and even JWs and Mormons are Christians.
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« Reply #126 on: May 14, 2004, 11:29:55 AM »

Quote
...JWs and Mormons are Christians

This I have a problem with.  The same goes for calling non-Trinitarian Pentecostals Christians.

Christian = Trinitarian.  We follow Christ because He is God and He is God because He is a person of the Holy Trinity.  

JWs, Mormons, and Pentecostal non-Trinitarian types are not Christians.  I don't enjoy labelling at all, but I can't budge on this one.

Then again, just my opinion! Smiley
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« Reply #127 on: May 14, 2004, 11:33:23 AM »

Don't forget that the first Christians to make it to the Upper West Coast were Russian Orthodox.  There is now a strong Orthodox Native population (all under the OCA I believe).  Also Orthodoxy was spread amoung many Native tribes north of the San Francisco Bay Area.  (http://www.mcn.org/1/rrparks/fortross/)  It's a pretty cool place to visit.  Since there were no Spanish, American, yada yada there, I guess we can say Orthodoxy is the original Christian religion of the NorthWest.  
& in America, Native Americans quite willingly converted to Orthodoxy.  The one's that didn't, Russians didn't bother.  Missionaries were sent, but never did violence accompany their preaching.  Unlike the Spanish Catholics, or American Protastants.  One case in Monterey, CA, the Catholic priests tried to convert a young man into a Catholic.  He kept trying to convince them that he already was Christian, having been baptised Orthodox some time ago.  He refused to become Catholic, and was later imprisoned, tortured, and killed.  
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« Reply #128 on: May 14, 2004, 11:35:44 AM »

I am happy to call a wide variety of faithful people 'Christians' and mean it.

In our pluralistic times we cannot easily put the genie of Protestant denominationalism back in the bottle.

I can happily however describe many people as Christians who are all united by a sincere desire to follow Christ, who have not positively and explicitly embraced heresy, who shame me by their commitment.

These people are all perhaps in the category of 'catechumens' outside the Church. But just as I would not call a catechumen a 'pagan' or 'heathen' because they are on the way. So I will not dismiss non-Orthodox as non-Christian, they are indeed in the most part seekers after Christ.

That doesn't mean I cannot criticise doctrinal systems as heretical, but I will not easily condemn simple believers, born and brought up without any knowledge of Orthodoxy. To deny them the title of Christian seems to me to do that. Deny their organisations the name of Church by all means. I prefer speaking of communities rather than Churches.
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« Reply #129 on: May 14, 2004, 11:43:35 AM »

[quote author=Brendan03
Except that the Catholic Church affirms, in its own ecclesiology, that the Orthodox are true churches, and that therefore Orthodox are "in" the Body of Christ.  Orthodox say no such thing about non-Orthodox.

Brendan

Quote

I would bet that you are in the minority in regards of seeing non orthodox as not chritians.  This line of thought also contradicts scriptures. In church history we always see references to heretodox/orthodox christians. A christian is anyone that believes that jesus  is the son of god...died and rose from the dead.
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« Reply #130 on: May 14, 2004, 11:49:10 AM »

I look at it this way, in my own opinion.  If you take a picture and use photoshop to deit it, there comes a time when it has become so distorted it is no longer recognizable as the original picture.  Protestants have done this.  Therefore, they have so distorted Christ, it can be thought that they no longer woriship the same God.  Just like Mohamadeans.

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« Reply #131 on: May 14, 2004, 12:00:53 PM »

"I would bet that you are in the minority in regards of seeing non orthodox as not chritians."

Where did I say that?  I said that "Protestants" were not "Christian" in my personal opinion, as I understand Christian to mean properly (not what it means in common parlance).  I didn't say anything at all about other non-Orthodox.

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« Reply #132 on: May 14, 2004, 12:03:55 PM »

Well, my opinion doesn't matter either; what matters is the common usage of the word, and in common usage Protestants and even JWs and Mormons are Christians.


Point taken, but we're entitled to our own, corrected, views of things as well, apart from the common parlance.  Common parlance says that the Ecumenical Patriarch is the Orthodox Pope, and that's how many people around the world view it, even if its rather wrong.

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« Reply #133 on: May 14, 2004, 12:09:12 PM »


That doesn't mean I cannot criticise doctrinal systems as heretical, but I will not easily condemn simple believers, born and brought up without any knowledge of Orthodoxy. To deny them the title of Christian seems to me to do that.

No, I don't think so.  Not everyone outside the visible confines of the "Church" is condemned.  Everything is possible with God.  But we can still distinguish, I think, between who are apparently "Christians" and those who are simply well-intentioned followers of Christ, without implying that one is condemned while the other is not.  Those who are visibly apparently Christian may nevertheless have fallen away from communion with the Body, as we know.

I honestly don't understand the difficulty here.  Evangelical Protestants, for example, take a very hard line on this themselves, and would say that you and I are simply "not saved".  In my personal opinion, they are not "in Christ" visibly and so are not properly termed "Christian", although they are followers of Christ, or claim to be.  They are not per se condemned as persons because of that, for anything is possible with God, and the Holy Spirit may still yet work in inauspicious circumstances.

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« Reply #134 on: May 14, 2004, 12:13:46 PM »

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I can happily however describe many people as Christians who are all united by a sincere desire to follow Christ, who have not positively and explicitly embraced heresy, who shame me by their commitment.

I think along these same lines. I can't deny as a former protestant all the great works I was witness to. To say that Christ doesn't work in the lives of the non orthodox is very silly.
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« Reply #135 on: May 14, 2004, 01:56:00 PM »

They are not per se condemned as persons because of that, for anything is possible with God, and the Holy Spirit may still yet work in inauspicious circumstances.

That's just the same old cop out though. You are saying 'These people are not christians because they are outside the body....oh of course I am not saying you are not a christian, that's up to God.'

Well if it is then don't say 'These people are not Christians'.

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« Reply #136 on: May 14, 2004, 02:56:39 PM »

That's just the same old cop out though. You are saying 'These people are not christians because they are outside the body....oh of course I am not saying you are not a christian, that's up to God.'

Well if it is then don't say 'These people are not Christians'.

Peter

No, Peter, I said that I did not conclude that because they are not apparently Christian, they are therefore condemned, in my opinion.  That's because it is utlimately up to God what happens to these people, but in my opinion they are not apparently Christian.  It leaves open the possibility, which in my opinion we must, that those who are not apparently Christian are nevertheless not necessarily condemned by God ... we simply do not know that, one way or another.  I therefore disagree that "not Christian = ipso facto condemned".

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« Reply #137 on: May 14, 2004, 03:19:41 PM »

But surely if they are not Christian then they are pagans. No different to Hindus, Muslims etc?
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« Reply #138 on: May 14, 2004, 03:35:15 PM »

I would say that in my personal opinion "Protestantism" is a different religion than "Christianity", but that I make no comment on the prospects for salvation of those adherents of the religion known as Protestantism.  Perhaps they are better off than Muslims or Hindus because they claim to be followers of Christ, and perhaps they are not, but that is not mine to judge.
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« Reply #139 on: May 14, 2004, 03:39:28 PM »

But you have already judged, don't you see that?

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« Reply #140 on: May 14, 2004, 03:49:19 PM »

No, I have only done that if "not being apprently Christian = condemned", which I have not done.  I have expressed by personal opinion as to whether such persons are, in my opinion, apparently "Christians", nothing more than that.
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« Reply #141 on: May 14, 2004, 03:52:11 PM »

You've judged because 'not being apparently Christian = not being apparently Christian'.

If I said to someone 'you are not apparently a Christian but I'm not judging you because at the very last God might decide to save you' then I'd expect them to feel judged, unless you said that you also were not apparently a Christian and also needed to rely in the end on God's mercy.

When you place 'them' into a different category to 'us' you have judged.
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« Reply #142 on: May 14, 2004, 04:03:03 PM »

Brendan03, forgive me if I appear to be going on and on. I don't mean to.

Peter
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« Reply #143 on: May 14, 2004, 04:21:25 PM »

I dont' think Brendan has judged at all.  He is stating where he feels the boundaries of hte Church to be.  If we cannot say such and such is where the visible Body of Christ ends, than how can we say groups of people such as the gnostics, manichians, or Aryans of old and the more recent groups of Mormons, JWs, and non-trinitarian pentecostals are nto Christian.  If we cannot set limits, we must accept that everyone and anyone who claims to follow christ is a Christian.  Thus there is a sizable group of Hindu's that must by that definition also be qualified as Christians.

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« Reply #144 on: May 14, 2004, 04:25:33 PM »

I think that the Church has always made a distinction between what might be called trinitarian heterodox and non-trinitarian heretics. The Church tradition never lumps all non-Orthodox in together as non-Christians.

It is quite easy to say that a Gnostic is not a Christian or a Mormon, but to say that a Trinitarian, Christ believing person is in the same category as a Gnostic or a Mormon seems to me to be much more than the Fathers ever said.
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« Reply #145 on: May 14, 2004, 04:31:56 PM »

well, I can see what you are saying, but based on my earlier post about the photoshop editing, one has to ask, what Christ are they following, what Trinity do they believe in?  There is a point where their distortion become so bad, it can longer be said to be the same God.

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« Reply #146 on: May 14, 2004, 04:40:23 PM »

I agree, but I do not believe that someone who believes in the Trinity and in the Incarnate Word of God, and the resurrection can be said to worship a different God without some clear evidence.

I don't see how it's our business to be talking like this. It is just more carping, more negativity.

I'd much rather be like St Paul and approach any and all Christians saying 'It is clear that you are a most devout people' and then seek to lead them on from their to the fulness of what I am convinced is the Gospel of Christ.

Approaching people with the attitude that they probably don't worship the true God seems to me to be just an opportunity for pride and even for dismissing the work of the Holy Spirit among people.

It's not an attitude I am happy with at all. Reject the teaching by all means. I believe that my Plymouth Brethren background was filled with a great deal of error. But it is dangerous to reject the faith and commitment and worship of such folk. Better to give thanks to God for what is there and pray that it be fulfilled.

If they worship a different God then they are worshipping demons. I will not, indeed cannot, say that of any of the people I grew up with.

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« Reply #147 on: May 14, 2004, 05:22:08 PM »

well, I can see what you are saying, but based on my earlier post about the photoshop editing, one has to ask, what Christ are they following, what Trinity do they believe in?  There is a point where their distortion become so bad, it can longer be said to be the same God.

Joe Zollars


No, you can't see what he is saying because f your fanaticism.

Really............ How many jesus' do you know that was crucified, rose from the dead and is the son of God.

What is sad is your fanaticism.
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« Reply #148 on: May 14, 2004, 06:56:43 PM »

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I agree, but I do not believe that someone who believes in the Trinity and in the Incarnate Word of God, and the resurrection can be said to worship a different God without some clear evidence
Right on....
 I don't know any former RC or Protestant that would say they worshipped a different God before they found the Orthodox faith.

It's more of a semantics problem & thier scientific existential methods approaching the faith. Once you show them the mind of the early church & how they viewed Scriptures/Tradition the walls come falling down. I don't see the drastic differences others see.
If your talking about JW's/ Mormons & other Non trinitarians, then yea it is much much more difficult for them because they have drastically departed from the Faith.

Most protestants are just plainly ignorant of church history because they never study & look at it. I have talked to many protestants that I know about the issues that divide them from the fullness of apostolic christianity and most of them do see where they are lacking in thier stripped down protestant faith. There really is much more that unites us than divides us to be honest.          
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« Reply #149 on: May 14, 2004, 08:52:17 PM »

I think Brendan (as usual) raises an interesting point.  I wouldn't go as far as he does but I think his opinion is certainly acceptable within Christianity.  

I've written before that authority is the center of christianity (IMHO) and protestants by definition reject that authority.  How do we know who Christ is unless we look to the Church to teach us?  Certainly we can *feel* Christ and can reason His existence but the authority of the Church is what tells us that He's true God and true man.  A man sitting on an island won't 'reason' the orthodox understanding of God.

Therefore I think it's certainly possible (and probably likely) that many protestants do not hold to the 'orthodox' understanding of Christ.  For example, I've read that the doctrinal distinctions between different protestant sects are becoming blurred which I think is natural as protestantism becomes further separated from catholicism.  I think modern believing/practicing protestants and catholics see Christ in very 'unorthodox' ways.  I think that's partially why the Mel Gibson movie was such a success.  Christ 'captivated' the modern American because we'd lost the proper understanding of who He was.  He'd become a guy they'd put on a billboard advertising vegetarism, in short a 'nice' guy with supernatural powers.  

As I said, modern catholics have the same distorted understanding of Christ but at least they are receiving the Eucharist and therefore being joined to Christ sacramentally.  

I also think that modern fundamentalist protestantism (especially the pentecostal strands) has lost its doctrinal underpinnings and therefore many believers are probably not christians in the orthodox sense of the word.  But they're very sincere people who believe strongly in God and they're striving to follow what they think is God's word.  

It's not possible to know who Christ is without the Church so any protestant who is a christian is a catholic even if they don't know it.  They reject the authority of the Church but accept the authority of the Church when they accept the orthodox understanding of Christ.  

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« Reply #150 on: May 14, 2004, 10:16:01 PM »

Most Muslims are not terrorist but most terrorists are Muslims. IMHO.

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« Reply #151 on: May 15, 2004, 04:55:34 AM »

It's not possible to know who Christ is without the Church so any protestant who is a christian is a catholic even if they don't know it.  They reject the authority of the Church but accept the authority of the Church when they accept the orthodox understanding of Christ.  

This is the way I have looked at things. That all those separated visibly from the Orthodox Catholic Church, whatsoever is of the truth in their communities is a witness of the presence of the Holy Spirit as He wills, and is a tenuous bond with the Orthodox Catholic Church.

If they are Christians, and if I am a Christian, then it is because of Christ. But that judges me as well as them.

It is not so much a theoretical distinction which may or may not be of value which I dislike - but it is saying in people's faces 'You don't believe in the same God as us'. If that is so then as an Evangelical I would have been deeply offended and could only consider that I must be accused of worshipping demons.

I know that I do not deserve the name of Christian so how can I spend time insisting that this group and that group are not Christians. On the contrary their lack of knowledge makes them much less liable to condemnation than I am.

I still find speaking the distinction out loud to be condemning, and counter-productive.

Why say it? Who does it help?

If anyone should be judged not a Christian I know that it is ME!

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« Reply #152 on: May 15, 2004, 05:47:51 AM »

I think Brendan (as usual) raises an interesting point.  I wouldn't go as far as he does but I think his opinion is certainly acceptable within Christianity.  

I've written before that authority is the center of christianity (IMHO) and protestants by definition reject that authority.  How do we know who Christ is unless we look to the Church to teach us?  Certainly we can *feel* Christ and can reason His existence but the authority of the Church is what tells us that He's true God and true man.  A man sitting on an island won't 'reason' the orthodox understanding of God.

Therefore I think it's certainly possible (and probably likely) that many protestants do not hold to the 'orthodox' understanding of Christ.  For example, I've read that the doctrinal distinctions between different protestant sects are becoming blurred which I think is natural as protestantism becomes further separated from catholicism.  I think modern believing/practicing protestants and catholics see Christ in very 'unorthodox' ways.  I think that's partially why the Mel Gibson movie was such a success.  Christ 'captivated' the modern American because we'd lost the proper understanding of who He was.  He'd become a guy they'd put on a billboard advertising vegetarism, in short a 'nice' guy with supernatural powers.  

As I said, modern catholics have the same distorted understanding of Christ but at least they are receiving the Eucharist and therefore being joined to Christ sacramentally.  

I also think that modern fundamentalist protestantism (especially the pentecostal strands) has lost its doctrinal underpinnings and therefore many believers are probably not christians in the orthodox sense of the word.  But they're very sincere people who believe strongly in God and they're striving to follow what they think is God's word.  

It's not possible to know who Christ is without the Church so any protestant who is a christian is a catholic even if they don't know it.  They reject the authority of the Church but accept the authority of the Church when they accept the orthodox understanding of Christ.  



Do you know that we catholics say the samething about orthodox. This is so freaky.
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« Reply #153 on: May 15, 2004, 08:56:33 AM »

" this is their country ( and orthodoxy is a guest religion here and not native to this land)"

As Peter has pointed out, Protestantism is not "native", but imported as well, but I will grant that Protestantism is the principal religion in the USA at the present time.



Protestanism is native to america since the founders of this country were protestants. Well, half of this country was catholic with the annexation of mexican/spanish territory.

Orthodoxy is an immigrant religion foreign to the cultural/religious foundation of this country.  


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« Reply #154 on: May 15, 2004, 09:04:59 AM »

In what way is Protestantism native to the US in a way that excludes Orthodoxy or RCsm from being native?

Were the Native Americans Protestant?

If not then all traditions of Christianity have been brought over.

Peter

Well, protestamts where the religious/cultural founders of this country. It is solidly founded on protestant principles. Orthodoxy is an immigrant religion foreign to the mindset of its people.

It is the same way that russia keeps out religion ( catholics and protestants)  that were not supposedly native to russia.
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« Reply #155 on: May 15, 2004, 11:31:00 AM »

Protestanism is native to america since the founders of this country were protestants. Well, half of this country was catholic with the annexation of mexican/spanish territory.

Orthodoxy is an immigrant religion foreign to the cultural/religious foundation of this country.  
And one sixth of the US was Orthodox, prior to it's purchase from Russia.  Hence, there are native Americans who were Orthodox before becoming part of the United States.  One therefore can't say that Orthodoxy is exclusively an immigrant religion in the US.
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« Reply #156 on: May 15, 2004, 12:48:12 PM »

And one sixth of the US was Orthodox, prior to it's purchase from Russia.  Hence, there are native Americans who were Orthodox before becoming part of the United States.  One therefore can't say that Orthodoxy is exclusively an immigrant religion in the US.

and where did you get that number from? orthodoxy is categorically foreign to continental america.

what native american are you talking about?
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« Reply #157 on: May 15, 2004, 12:50:21 PM »

Do you know that we catholics say the samething about orthodox. This is so freaky.

I've often found webpages that read so much alike in claiming their unique position as the Only Church that I've had to check the top to see if they're RC or EO.  Part of why I stay Anglican.

Sorry.

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« Reply #158 on: May 15, 2004, 12:54:27 PM »

and where did you get that number from? orthodoxy is categorically foreign to continental america.

what native american are you talking about?

Probably the ones in what is now the state of Alaska.  It was acquired in 1867 for 7 million dollars.  "Seward's Folly" "Seward's Icebox" and "Johnson's Polar Bear Garden."

Ebor
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« Reply #159 on: May 15, 2004, 01:00:28 PM »

I've often found webpages that read so much alike in claiming their unique position as the Only Church that I've had to check the top to see if they're RC or EO.  Part of why I stay Anglican.

Sorry.

Ebor

I, as a catholic,  find it extremely hysterical.  I almost fell of my chair when I heard an orthodox say " Welcome Home and Journey Home" phrases that are used by catholics all the time when refering to protestants/orthodox converts.

You are right that you have to look at the top of web page to see if its catholic or protestants.

btw,  I went to mass last week in a catholic church called Saint Mary's (that's what I thought) and when the priest was done with the mass and everyone was going home....I realised that it was an anglo-catholic church.  I could not believe how catholic it was. people had rosaries, incense, statues of catholic saints, even the alter(sp).

I went to confession the next day (different matter) and I mentioned to my confessor and we starter laughing at the whole incident. he said that anglo-catholic churches are extremely similar and most catholics would even know the difference unless someone told them. he also mentioned that this happened to a group of hispanic catholics that though they were going to a catholic church for mass but in reality where going to an anglican church somewhere in chicago.

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« Reply #160 on: May 15, 2004, 01:03:31 PM »

Roman

Christianity is foreign nowhere.

Go into all the world.

If Orthodoxy is Christianity it belongs everywhere. If Roman Catholicism is Christianity it belongs everywhere.

Otherwise we should send no missionaries anywhere since they are already happy in their native expression of worship.
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« Reply #161 on: May 15, 2004, 01:12:49 PM »

I, as a catholic,  find it extremely hysterical.  I almost fell of my chair when I heard an orthodox say " Welcome Home and Journey Home" phrases that are used by catholics all the time when refering to protestants/orthodox converts.

You are right that you have to look at the top of web page to see if its catholic or protestants.

No, I have to look at the top of the page to see if it's Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox.  Any "Protestant" page claiming to be the "Only Real Church" uses different language and usually within the first 3 paragraphs mentions something about how bad the RCs are.

Quote
btw,  I went to mass last week in a catholic church called Saint Mary's (that's what I thought) and when the priest was done with the mass and everyone was going home....I realised that it was an anglo-catholic church.  I could not believe how catholic it was. people had rosaries, incense, statues of catholic saints, even the alter(sp).

I went to confession the next day (different matter) and I mentioned to my confessor and we starter laughing at the whole incident. he said that anglo-catholic churches are extremely similar and most catholics would even know the difference unless someone told them. he also mentioned that this happened to a group of hispanic catholics that though they were going to a catholic church for mass but in reality where going to an anglican church somewhere in chicago.

Of course, being an Anglican, I'd say that the Anglo-Catholic Church had statues of *Christian* saints (We have a kalendar in our prayer book that lists many saints both ancient and more recent).  Many of our churchs have a saint's name, or a feast day such as "Ascension and Saint Agnes" (in Washington D.C.)

I'd know the difference between being in an Anglo-Catholic parish and a Roman Catholic one, at least in the US, because from my experiences the Anglicans actually have the congregation participating in singing the hymns and the service amoung other things.  

Ebor
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« Reply #162 on: May 15, 2004, 01:16:34 PM »

Probably the ones in what is now the state of Alaska.  It was acquired in 1867 for 7 million dollars.  "Seward's Folly" "Seward's Icebox" and "Johnson's Polar Bear Garden."

Ebor
Alaska contains one sixth of the land area of the United States, and is as much a state as any other, but with an Orthodox heritage dating from Russian missionaries to that part of North America.  Hence, Orthodoxy is not foreign to the United States as Alaska had a significant Orthodox population pre-dating it's becoming part of the US.
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« Reply #163 on: May 15, 2004, 01:20:01 PM »

I apologize for being grouchy. It's been a long hard week and it's not over yet. But reading a thread that had some opinion that I am not a Christian (in their opinion) because I'm not EO has rankled.  I shouldn't have read this at this time.

One personal note:  For all the "Come Home" and "Welcome Home" language from the RCs and the EOs, it may work that way for some people but we're not all alike.

 If I should ever find the necessity to become one or the other it would not be "Coming Home" to me    I have never lived there.

It would be an "Exile".  

Ebor
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« Reply #164 on: May 15, 2004, 01:22:05 PM »

Are you interested in Western Rite Orthodoxy, Ebor?
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« Reply #165 on: May 15, 2004, 01:26:58 PM »

Alaska contains one sixth of the land area of the United States, and is as much a state as any other, but with an Orthodox heritage dating from Russian missionaries to that part of North America.  Hence, Orthodoxy is not foreign to the United States as Alaska had a significant Orthodox population pre-dating it's becoming part of the US.

what are you talking about significant? Having a couple of missionaries doesn't  qulaify as native.

So you now admit that roman catholcisim is not foreign to russia and ulkraine.?
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« Reply #166 on: May 15, 2004, 01:36:31 PM »

Alaska contains one sixth of the land area of the United States, and is as much a state as any other, but with an Orthodox heritage dating from Russian missionaries to that part of North America.  Hence, Orthodoxy is not foreign to the United States as Alaska had a significant Orthodox population pre-dating it's becoming part of the US.

I know that, Theodore.  It was RomanByz. who didn't seem to know the history of Alaska, so I was posting what you had refered to.  It's a habit of mine to bring in historical data.

Ebor
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« Reply #167 on: May 15, 2004, 01:42:53 PM »

what are you talking about significant? Having a couple of missionaries doesn't  qulaify as native.

So you now admit that roman catholcisim is not foreign to russia and ulkraine.?
1. There were more than "a couple of missionaries."
2. The issue at hand has nothing to do with Russia or Ukraine.  Are you saying that Russia and Ukraine have never experienced Christianity (as in Alaska prior to the Russians) and thus in need of missionaries to bring the gospel of Christ to those lands for the first time?
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« Reply #168 on: May 15, 2004, 01:44:48 PM »

btw,  I went to mass last week in a catholic church called Saint Mary's (that's what I thought) and when the priest was done with the mass and everyone was going home....I realised that it was an anglo-catholic church.  I could not believe how catholic it was. people had rosaries, incense, statues of catholic saints, even the alter(sp).


Which probably indicated that it wasn't RC.  The more 'catholic-esque' a chuch is the more likely it's anglo-catholic instead of RC.  

I've been RC all of my life and have attended Masses at churches throughout the country and I can almost always tell a RC church even from driving down the street.  The tacky music, the people in shorts and jeans, the dreary homily, the tacky felt banners, the cold-ness of the congregation, that the priest doesn't care to talk to you...all indications you're in a RC church.  I have many ECUSA relatives so I've been to Episcopal services many times and to me the 'classier-ness' of the churches and the music indicate that it's not RC.  I lived in an upscale urban neighborhood in a large northwestern city for a short time which was full of churches built in the late 19th century.  The Episcopal churches (full of gay parishioners, btw) still looked pretty.  They were actually very charming.  In contrast, the RC churches were pretty hideous.  You'd go out in the hall to look for the restroom and you'd see an old statute stuck in a corner somewhere.  
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« Reply #169 on: May 15, 2004, 01:46:32 PM »

I know that, Theodore.  It was RomanByz. who didn't seem to know the history of Alaska, so I was posting what you had refered to.  It's a habit of mine to bring in historical data.

Ebor
I know you understand the history, and was expounding upon your well thought out remarks.  My remarks were directed at RB, who seems to have an ideological axe to grind, and uses every opportunity to try to minimize the Orthodox and promote Roman Catholicism.  Unfortunately for him, his grasp of history is limited.
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« Reply #170 on: May 15, 2004, 01:46:36 PM »

Which probably indicated that it wasn't RC.  The more 'catholic-esque' a chuch is the more likely it's anglo-catholic instead of RC.  

I've been RC all of my life and have attended Masses at churches throughout the country and I can almost always tell a RC church even from driving down the street.  The tacky music, the people in shorts and jeans, the dreary homily, the tacky felt banners, the cold-ness of the congregation, that the priest doesn't care to talk to you...all indications you're in a RC church.  I have many ECUSA relatives so I've been to Episcopal services many times and to me the 'classier-ness' of the churches and the music indicate that it's not RC.  I lived in an upscale urban neighborhood in a large northwestern city for a short time which was full of churches built in the late 19th century.  The Episcopal churches (full of gay parishioners, btw) still looked pretty.  They were actually very charming.  In contrast, the RC churches were pretty hideous.  You'd go out in the hall to look for the restroom and you'd see an old statute stuck in a corner somewhere.  


lady.........You don't know what you are talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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« Reply #171 on: May 15, 2004, 01:48:29 PM »

I know you understand the history, and was expounding upon your well thought out remarks.  My remarks were directed at RB, who seems to have an ideological axe to grind, and uses every opportunity to try to minimize the Orthodox and promote Roman Catholicism.  Unfortunately for him, his grasp of history is limited.

Grasp of history limited? Don't make me laugh.

when have I promoted catholicism?

I don't have to  minimize orthodoxy.
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« Reply #172 on: May 15, 2004, 01:49:11 PM »

1. There were more than "a couple of missionaries."
2. The issue at hand has nothing to do with Russia or Ukraine.  Are you saying that Russia and Ukraine have never experienced Christianity (as in Alaska prior to the Russians) and thus in need of missionaries to bring the gospel of Christ to those lands for the first time?

No... just the double standard of the orthodox.
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« Reply #173 on: May 15, 2004, 01:52:28 PM »

No... just the double standard of the orthodox.

Were you able to write this with a straight face?
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« Reply #174 on: May 15, 2004, 01:56:36 PM »

Were you able to write this with a straight face?

straight as an arrow. and I though protestants were the extreme Representative of the art form " double standard"?

Believe me.. now I undertand why the double standard is employed, while denying it at the same time and doing the samething that other get accussed of.

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« Reply #175 on: May 15, 2004, 02:10:20 PM »

what are you talking about significant? Having a couple of missionaries doesn't  qulaify as native.

So you now admit that roman catholcisim is not foreign to russia and ulkraine.?

Please! a couple misssionaries?  By the point of the purchase of alaska, the native populations were sending missinionaries.  Services were conducted in Slavonic and various native dialects, native priests had been being ordained for over halph a century (by this point you could count the ethnically russian priests on one hand while native priests were very numerous indeed).  Even today,  most native villages will contain an ORthodox Church.  

Alaska had a very significant (aka majority) ORthodox Population.  Read "Orthodox Alaska"  by Michael Oleska for more information.

Also, norther California had a significant Orthodox Population *among the native americans*.    Thus the only truly native religion to American soil is Orthodoxy.

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« Reply #176 on: May 15, 2004, 02:20:29 PM »

RB, noone is employing a doupble standard except you.  

OH and Jennifer does know what she is talking about.  I have had similar experiences myself.  Even RC trad Latin Masses seldom compare to Anglo-Catholic services.  so why don't you just quite hurling insults at the good people of this forum.

People please stop feeding the troll!

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« Reply #177 on: May 15, 2004, 02:42:50 PM »

Please! a couple misssionaries?  By the point of the purchase of alaska, the native populations were sending missinionaries.  Services were conducted in Slavonic and various native dialects, native priests had been being ordained for over halph a century (by this point you could count the ethnically russian priests on one hand while native priests were very numerous indeed).  Even today,  most native villages will contain an ORthodox Church.  

Alaska had a very significant (aka majority) ORthodox Population.  Read "Orthodox Alaska"  by Michael Oleska for more information.

Also, norther California had a significant Orthodox Population *among the native americans*.    Thus the only truly native religion to American soil is Orthodoxy.

Joe Zollars

Joe, if you didn't know, which I expect you not to know is that catholcism was here way before the protestant and orthdox set foot in the new world. and california was very spanish and catholic if you didn't know.

Most of new world is roman catholic from north america to the south. and do you know why?
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« Reply #178 on: May 15, 2004, 02:45:13 PM »

RB, noone is employing a doupble standard except you.  

OH and Jennifer does know what she is talking about.  I have had similar experiences myself.  Even RC trad Latin Masses seldom compare to Anglo-Catholic services.  so why don't you just quite hurling insults at the good people of this forum.

People please stop feeding the troll!

Joe Zollars

No.. she does not know what she is talking about and that includes you alot of the time. and that is not insulting anyone.

see the anti catholics accusse us catholics of having fancy decorated churches...too ornate.. too rich for a christian church while another group accusse us of having tacky churches.  Why oh why do our daugthers hate us so.

BTW, I thought that you were never catholic? what gives...changed your story again. serioulsy.. you have got to keep track of your stories.

Yes people don't be afraid of the troll.
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« Reply #179 on: May 15, 2004, 02:52:42 PM »

I have not told you my religious background at all. YOu are just making assumptions.  From appearances, you do that quite frequently.

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« Reply #180 on: May 15, 2004, 02:54:06 PM »

I have not told you my religious background at all. YOu are just making assumptions.  From appearances, you do that quite frequently.

Joe Zollars

You just keep changing your stories that it is quite difficult to follow.
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« Reply #181 on: May 15, 2004, 03:15:32 PM »

Most of new world is roman catholic from north america to the south. and do you know why?

Because the Evil One found your church easily manipulated and therefore an effective tool in his quest to kill and make life generally miserable for all but his most dedicated fools?

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« Reply #182 on: May 15, 2004, 03:20:01 PM »

No.. she does not know what she is talking about and that includes you alot of the time. and that is not insulting anyone.

see the anti catholics accusse us catholics of having fancy decorated churches...too ornate.. too rich for a christian church while another group accusse us of having tacky churches.  Why oh why do our daugthers hate us so.

BTW, I thought that you were never catholic? what gives...changed your story again. serioulsy.. you have got to keep track of your stories.

Yes people don't be afraid of the troll.


Huh.   Huh

I wrote that I was a RC.  

You're being way too defensive here if you object to people saying that RC churches have tacky music and tacky felt banners.  First, I'm RC.  Second, everybody knows we have tacky felt banners and tacky/bad music at our Masses.  It's not like it's debated.  In fact, it's a pretty common complaint made by RCs.  

BTW, what do you mean by "our daughters?"  These people are Orthodox and are therefore not "our daughters."  We RCs view the Orthodox as our "brothers."  

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« Reply #183 on: May 15, 2004, 03:24:52 PM »

Huh.   Huh

I wrote that I was a RC.  

You're being way too defensive here if you object to people saying that RC churches have tacky music and tacky felt banners.  First, I'm RC.  Second, everybody knows we have tacky felt banners and tacky/bad music at our Masses.  It's not like it's debated.  In fact, it's a pretty common complaint made by RCs.  

BTW, what do you mean by "our daughters?"  These people are Orthodox and are therefore not "our daughters."  We RCs view the Orthodox as our "brothers."  



jennifer,

I don't know what type of catholic churches you have been too but perhaps we come from two different worlds. Cause the churches that I have attended where far from being tacky.  I would say that the churches I have been to were extremely ornate and all the music where all classical latin chants.
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« Reply #184 on: May 15, 2004, 03:29:13 PM »

jennifer,

I don't know what type of catholic churches you have been too but perhaps we come from two different worlds.

That's why it is always helpful if one lists their geographical location in their Profile.
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« Reply #185 on: May 15, 2004, 03:34:41 PM »

Because the Evil One found your church easily manipulated and therefore an effective tool in his quest to kill and make life generally miserable for all but his most dedicated fools?



back at you buddy.

Looks who is talking about being manipulated by the evil one.
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« Reply #186 on: May 15, 2004, 03:36:51 PM »

jennifer,

I don't know what type of catholic churches you have been too but perhaps we come from two different worlds. Cause the churches that I have attended where far from being tacky.  I would say that the churches I have been to were extremely ornate and all the music where all classical latin chants.

Are you from the United States?  I'd like to know where all the churches have classical latin chants.  You won't find that in many places in the US.  Even the trad churches don't have much chant.  They usually serve low Masses.  

It doesn't help your cause to ignore the problems in the RC.  I sometimes think that RC apologists try to whitewash the myriad of problems in the RC because they think it helps their argument.  However, it's better to be up front about the problems.  And unfortunately the state of Roman Catholicism in the US is dismal.  Our people are very poorly catechized.  Our priests can't preach to save their lives (speaking generally of course).  Almost all of the churches built in the last 50 years are god-awful messes.  

I was driving around the surburbs of a large northern city with a heavy ethnic RC population recently and I could tell the RC parishes from down the street.  They were always these huge modernist looking hideously ugly buildings.  They looked like school cafeterias.
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« Reply #187 on: May 15, 2004, 03:39:24 PM »

I was driving around the surburbs of a large northern city with a heavy ethnic RC population recently...

See. Now why wouldn't you just SAY which large northern city?
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« Reply #188 on: May 15, 2004, 03:50:20 PM »

Are you from the United States?  I'd like to know where all the churches have classical latin chants.  You won't find that in many places in the US.  Even the trad churches don't have much chant.  They usually serve low Masses.  

It doesn't help your cause to ignore the problems in the RC.  I sometimes think that RC apologists try to whitewash the myriad of problems in the RC because they think it helps their argument.  However, it's better to be up front about the problems.  And unfortunately the state of Roman Catholicism in the US is dismal.  Our people are very poorly catechized.  Our priests can't preach to save their lives (speaking generally of course).  Almost all of the churches built in the last 50 years are god-awful messes.  

I was driving around the surburbs of a large northern city with a heavy ethnic RC population recently and I could tell the RC parishes from down the street.  They were always these huge modernist looking hideously ugly buildings.  They looked like school cafeterias.  

I am from euorpe but I live in NYC.  and you claim to be roman catholic.. forgive me but your tone doesn't seem like it.

what are you talking about dismal. have you been to all catholic parishes to make those  kind of blanket statements. you are ready for conversion are you not. your getting the hang of it are not you. shameful act.
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« Reply #189 on: May 15, 2004, 03:54:47 PM »

See. Now why wouldn't you just SAY which large northern city?

A lady reveals nothing... Wink
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« Reply #190 on: May 15, 2004, 03:56:22 PM »

A lady reveals nothing... Wink

are you thinking of converting to orthodoxy?
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« Reply #191 on: May 15, 2004, 03:58:59 PM »

I am from euorpe but I live in NYC.  and you claim to be roman catholic.. forgive me but your tone doesn't seem like it.

what are you talking about dismal. have you been to all catholic parishes to make those  kind of blanket statements. you are ready for conversion are you not. your getting the hang of it are not you. shameful act.

Now you're just being silly.  All traditional/conservative RCs make the same criticisms.  

You say you live in NYC...I've spent some time in NYC myself and I can only think of one parish that has classical latin chant, St. Agnes.  Even that conservative church on Park Avenue with Fr. Rutler doesn't always have latin chant.  

BTW, I'm not "ready for conversion."  I'm staying RC.  

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« Reply #192 on: May 16, 2004, 12:57:57 AM »

RB, my story has not changed.  Any one of a thousand members (well not really sicne there are only slightly more than 500) could tell you that my story has indeed not changed over the past several years I have known them other than the natural progression with time.  You have made assumptions, yes assumptions, about my background that you have no need to make.  Quite frankly my background is none of your business.  NOr are the personal thoughts and feelings of other members of this forum any of your business.  

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« Reply #193 on: May 16, 2004, 04:52:04 PM »

Are you interested in Western Rite Orthodoxy, Ebor?

I am aware of Western Rite. I have been to a Western Rite parish some time ago. I know that some EO look on WR as "Not *really* Orthodox" since it isn't Byzantine.  That others have the view that it's a way of easing people into EO until they can handle the "Real Thing" (that is, Byzantine ways).  Other views are that it's the equivalent of the "Unia"/Byzantine Catholics or it's "Bringing the West back to EO".  Such parishes are few and far between and the only jurisdictions that I'm aware of having them are the Antiochians and the ROCOR (one place in New England iirc)

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« Reply #194 on: May 16, 2004, 04:56:10 PM »

jennifer,

I don't know what type of catholic churches you have been too but perhaps we come from two different worlds. Cause the churches that I have attended where far from being tacky.  I would say that the churches I have been to were extremely ornate and all the music where all classical latin chants.

Perhaps you have been fortunate in what parishes you have attended.  RC services that I have attended have generally been in line with what Jennifer has described, though at least at the weddings people haven't attended wearing shorts and t-shirts that I've seen.

Ebor
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« Reply #195 on: May 16, 2004, 05:35:42 PM »

jennifer,

I don't know what type of catholic churches you have been too but perhaps we come from two different worlds. Cause the churches that I have attended where far from being tacky.  I would say that the churches I have been to were extremely ornate and all the music where all classical latin chants.

RB,

Unless you attend Traditional Latin Mass chapels, then we do come from two totally different worlds! The only NO Mass I have seen down wonderfuly and full of beauty was at a huge Cathedral that hadn't suffered a great deal from the post-Vat II rennovations. The setting can make any Mass seem beautiful, but in my expirence the NO mass is only beautiful if its surrounded by beauty.
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« Reply #196 on: May 16, 2004, 06:07:34 PM »

RB,

Unless you attend Traditional Latin Mass chapels, then we do come from two totally different worlds! The only NO Mass I have seen down wonderfuly and full of beauty was at a huge Cathedral that hadn't suffered a great deal from the post-Vat II rennovations. The setting can make any Mass seem beautiful, but in my expirence the NO mass is only beautiful if its surrounded by beauty.

The NO mass that I have attended were done beautifully with Latin and all. The churches were beautiful, almost european in style. Then there have been NO mass was a disgrace with all the innovations that occurred to the priests/bishops of the parish.

It seems to me that she has visited one of those modernist influenced churches.

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« Reply #197 on: May 16, 2004, 06:17:46 PM »

Dear RB,

Where do you go to Mass?  I am in Westchester county, and have been to Mass in many parishes in this state (NY), including NYC.  I have never once seen any Latin or Gregorian chant used in any church on a regular basis except:

Saint Agnes, Manhattan (already mentioned)
Saint Mary's, Albany (12pm NO in Latin)
Ss. Peter and Paul, Troy (Indult Mass)

I want to know where in NY/NYC you go to church where the Masses are in Latin or incorporate a good amount of Latin and use Gregorian chant; I want to visit.
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« Reply #198 on: May 16, 2004, 06:32:22 PM »

Dear RB,

Where do you go to Mass?  I am in Westchester county, and have been to Mass in many parishes in this state (NY), including NYC.  I have never once seen any Latin or Gregorian chant used in any church on a regular basis except:

Saint Agnes, Manhattan (already mentioned)
Saint Mary's, Albany (12pm NO in Latin)
Ss. Peter and Paul, Troy (Indult Mass)

I want to know where in NY/NYC you go to church where the Masses are in Latin or incorporate a good amount of Latin and use Gregorian chant; I want to visit.  

I go to saint Agnes NYC Traditional latin mass. and Opus Dei chapels NYC and Father Rutlers church on Park avenue. Extremely orthodox catholic priests.

Also, if you speak spanish try to visit spanish parishes especially Saint Bartholemew and Saint Joan of Arc both in Queens, NY.

Also, once every month I am in scranton PA and I attend St. Michael's Parish.
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« Reply #199 on: May 16, 2004, 06:47:36 PM »

A NO Mass can seem very beautiful if it takes place in a chruch built before the pot-Vat II refroms. However, what is interesting is that a Tridentine Mass is always beautiful, no matter where it is....lol but thats just my opinion.

I have been to a NO in Latin several times, but have yet to find a NO parish that uses Gregorian Chant every Sunday.
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« Reply #200 on: May 16, 2004, 06:49:04 PM »

Well, New York City and Scranton don't make up the sum of RC in the US.  Not by a long chalk. So you can hardly say, RB, that your experiences are the norm of RC liturgics in the US.  You have a pretty small sample size.

Ebor
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« Reply #201 on: May 16, 2004, 06:53:43 PM »

Well, New York City and Scranton don't make up the sum of RC in the US.  Not by a long chalk. So you can hardly say, RB, that your experiences are the norm of RC liturgics in the US.  You have a pretty small sample size.

Ebor

well this is my world. Not to mention when I go to europe 3 months out the year the mass is said in latin. A small sample that could be multiplied over and over again. This is a very big country with a substantial population not touched by modernism.

But to say that ALL churches are like the way jennifer said is just not true. Like I said we come from very two different world.
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« Reply #202 on: May 16, 2004, 07:02:26 PM »

All I know is that I am sure to find a wonderful, orthodox, and beautiful liturgy every time I attend any traditional Latin Mass chapel in the world.
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« Reply #203 on: May 16, 2004, 07:05:12 PM »

All I know is that I am sure to find a wonderful, orthodox, and beautiful liturgy every time I attend any traditional Latin Mass chapel in the world.

Me too. let me ask you a question.

If they wanted to say the mass in the vernacular, why didn't they just translate the trindentine mass into the language of the host country?   why update it or create a new mass incorporating latin and vernacular.
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« Reply #204 on: May 16, 2004, 07:12:38 PM »

Me too. let me ask you a question.

If they wanted to say the mass in the vernacular, why didn't they just translate the trindentine mass into the language of the host country?   why update it or create a new mass incorporating latin and vernacular.

I have no problem with the Tridentine Mass in the vernacular. I wish they would have done this, but instead a new Mass was invented with only 17% of the orginal prayers remaining. It is truly sad that such a beautiful Mass was chucked out the window and replaced with the missal of 69/70.
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« Reply #205 on: May 16, 2004, 07:14:53 PM »

I have no problem with the Tridentine Mass in the vernacular. I wish they would have done this, but instead a new Mass was invented with only 17% of the orginal prayers remaining. It is truly sad that such a beautiful Mass was chucked out the window and replaced with the missal of 69/70.

BUt what was the purpose? This is what I don't get!

and why was the TradMass forbidden to be said? well, that is if it was forbidden.
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« Reply #206 on: May 16, 2004, 07:17:20 PM »


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BUt what was the purpose? This is what I don't get!

I don't get it either.

Quote
and why was the TradMass forbidden to be said? well, that is if it was forbidden.

The Tridentine Mass was *not* forbidden, in fact it can *not* be forbidden.
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« Reply #207 on: May 16, 2004, 07:46:12 PM »

Somehow Al-Qaeda and Te Deum don't mix well, so here is a thread for this topic.

http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/newboard/index.php?board=7;action=display;threadid=3460
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« Reply #208 on: May 16, 2004, 07:58:19 PM »

well this is my world. Not to mention when I go to europe 3 months out the year the mass is said in latin. A small sample that could be multiplied over and over again. This is a very big country with a substantial population not touched by modernism.

But to say that ALL churches are like the way jennifer said is just not true. Like I said we come from very two different world.

I didn't write that "all" churches were that way.  Although I'd say the majority of American RC parishes are the way I've described them.  

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« Reply #209 on: May 16, 2004, 10:07:08 PM »

I go to saint Agnes NYC Traditional latin mass. and Opus Dei chapels NYC and Father Rutlers church on Park avenue. Extremely orthodox catholic priests.

Also, if you speak spanish try to visit spanish parishes especially Saint Bartholemew and Saint Joan of Arc both in Queens, NY.

Also, once every month I am in scranton PA and I attend St. Michael's Parish.


Perhaps, but in my experience as being Roman Catholic for 30+ years these kinds of communities represent less than 10%, perhaps less than 5%, of non-Hispanic Catholicism in the USA, and so in my experience, Jennifer's statements seem to represent more accurately the big picture, with these handful of places really being the exception that proves the rule.
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« Reply #210 on: August 20, 2006, 06:06:55 AM »

If you'd like to know the history of Islamic terrorism, look no further than the persecution of Orthodox Christians in now Islamic countries. I am convinced that Islam, in taking over and destroying half the Christian world, is nothing more and nothing less than pure evil.

Peace.
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« Reply #211 on: August 20, 2006, 06:24:49 AM »

A plague to be sure, but not all muslims are terrorists though many terrorists may be muslim. Of course to their warped value system, they are not.
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« Reply #212 on: August 20, 2006, 06:40:58 AM »

Just a question. Who are the people who are killing Serbs, burning churches and monasteries in Serbia, and uninating on the ruins?  Ethnic Albanians.  And what religion are ethnic Albanians, by and large?
Let's just look at the facts.

Albanians are among the least devout of all Muslim nations in the world. I'd be more likely to blame Kosovo troubles on ethnolinguistic misunderstandings than on some pure ideal of jihad.
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« Reply #213 on: August 20, 2006, 07:36:17 AM »

Albanians are among the least devout of all Muslim nations in the world. I'd be more likely to blame Kosovo troubles on ethnolinguistic misunderstandings than on some pure ideal of jihad.

Maybe; but a volatile mixture of these two factors is more likely the cause to me.
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« Reply #214 on: August 20, 2006, 12:51:28 PM »

Quote
I am convinced that Islam, in taking over and destroying half the Christian world, is nothing more and nothing less than pure evil.

Well since we're throwing out opinions, here's mine. I often wonder what makes one group excel, while another group lags behind. The non-Christian peoples of the Middle and Near East once had societies which were vastly superior to those in Western Europe, and easily matched the Near Eastern Christian cultures. Eventually, Europe caught up, and then shot past them like a bullet. What happened? Why were some people stuck in the stone age into the 18th, 19th, even 20th century? How could the Polynesians accomplish something as amazing as getting all the way down to New Zealand, and then remain in the stone age until Europeans started showing up eight centuries later? How is it that life began in Africa, and yet many tens of thousands (and possibly a couple hundred thousand) year later, Africa was still divided up into unsophisticated tribal cultures, willing to capture each other and commit ceremonial murders, or sell the prisoners into slavery. How did the Incans progress culturally as far as they did, and then decide to commit human sacrifices regularly?

I would agree with the last two posters, and so I would say that religion (whether Muslim or otherwise) is rarely the direct and single cause of "evil" activity. Different people just develop in different ways. Religion often gives people an excuse to act a certain way, but that doesn't mean that the religion was the primary cause of the action, or that the religion had any effect, for that matter. Clearly the Quran is much more militant than, say, the New Testament. However, I do not think it is so clearly more militant than, say, the Byzantine empire at times, or the Old Testament. Christians always seem to find a way to justify what Justinian did, or what Joshua did. But what Muhammed does is "pure evil". And the religion of Justinian and Joshua is sacred, it could never even so much as be questioned. But the religion of Muhammed, well we can dismiss it outright without even having tried to understand it. (I realise that some people have studied it, but the overwhelming majority are just going on the 20 second sound bites they hear on the news, what their equally uninformed friends say, etc.)
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« Reply #215 on: August 20, 2006, 02:30:27 PM »

Well since we're throwing out opinions, here's mine. I often wonder what makes one group excel, while another group lags behind. The non-Christian peoples of the Middle and Near East once had societies which were vastly superior to those in Western Europe, and easily matched the Near Eastern Christian cultures. Eventually, Europe caught up, and then shot past them like a bullet. What happened? Why were some people stuck in the stone age into the 18th, 19th, even 20th century? How could the Polynesians accomplish something as amazing as getting all the way down to New Zealand, and then remain in the stone age until Europeans started showing up eight centuries later? How is it that life began in Africa, and yet many tens of thousands (and possibly a couple hundred thousand) year later, Africa was still divided up into unsophisticated tribal cultures, willing to capture each other and commit ceremonial murders, or sell the prisoners into slavery. How did the Incans progress culturally as far as they did, and then decide to commit human sacrifices regularly?

My theory, as well as the theory I have heard most often put forward is influences of climate and geography, basically, food has to be scarce enough to cause the culture to pursue domestication of animals and cultivation of crops, yet the geographic (and geological) conditions have to be right to allow this. Where are these conditions seen throughout most the world? In a narrow strip north of the Equator, from Japan to North Africa, and then in South American and Mexico. Basically, necessity is the mother of invention.

As far as the advancemnets of the non-Christian people of the Middle and Near East, they were advancements of the Persian empire maintained by conquered Persian nobles, anything good in the Islamic Cultures was stolen from the Persians and Romans. The moslems were and remain a backwards and barbaric people, unable to create anything good only able to steal it from others; and in time they manage to corrupt even that which they stole, the only good the moslems ever did for Persia was spread her culture, yet in a matter of mere centuries the Glory of Persia would fade under the influence of the Islamic Hoards to the point where even the remnants can no longer be seen today.

As far as human sacrifices, I dont necessicarially view them barbaric and demonstrating the backwardsness of a culture. The Carthaginians practiced human sacrifice on their youth, and this act was loudly condemned by the moral Romans and even decadent Greeks as barbaric and immoral. However, Greece and Rome practiced exposure of infants, and defence of this act can even be found in some philosophers (basicially the argument goes that the evil of killing a human is that you kill a reasonable being and since an infant or very young child has not yet achieved the full use of his or her reason, the killing of this infant is not on par with the killing of a human being); to this very day the most civilized of countries practice an equivalent, abortion. Human sacrifice, or at least human sacrifice of infants (human sacrifice of defeated enemies does serve a different purpose, one that we thankfully abandoned about 500 years ago), serves the same purpose as exposure or abortion, population control; and unlike today when population control is generally used as a matter of convenience (China's population control, possibly, being a notable exception) in ancient societies it was often a matter of life or death, Children required resources, if resources were already scarse it's highly unlikely the child would survive anyway and an attempt to save them would only take resources from others, thus causing more death and suffering. Thus when the famine hits, you step up the human sacrifieces, and it actually does do some good; eventually this ancient necessity was cloaked in religious and ceremonial significance to make it easier. Pure pragmatism, again, necessity is the mother of invention.

Quote
I would agree with the last two posters, and so I would say that religion (whether Muslim or otherwise) is rarely the direct and single cause of "evil" activity. Different people just develop in different ways. Religion often gives people an excuse to act a certain way, but that doesn't mean that the religion was the primary cause of the action, or that the religion had any effect, for that matter.

So it's really the Arab and Turkish races that are evil, and Islam is just a reflection of that? Or, at least, the Arab and Turkish cultures that are Evil? You may be right, it is notable that the overwhelming majority of significant advancements in the last 2500 years have come from Indo-European civilization. But, in the end, Religion and Culture have become so linked that I do not believe it is necessary to make this distinction. To adopt another's religion is to adopt their culture. We're still at the same point, Islam and the Culture that surrounds it is evil.

Quote
Clearly the Quran is much more militant than, say, the New Testament. However, I do not think it is so clearly more militant than, say, the Byzantine empire at times, or the Old Testament. Christians always seem to find a way to justify what Justinian did, or what Joshua did.

What about Justinian? He developed a code of laws that survive as the basis for the legals system of the Majority of the World today. He commissioned advancements in Architecture that would serve as the basis for the next thousand years of European Culture. Are you refering to the execution of the traitors in the hippodrome? Keep in mind that even to this very day, under the laws of our Republic, the actions of those people, attempting to overthrow the Government, and actually establishing a rival government, would be regarded as treason and even in the United States if you were to try that, every one of those people would technically be liable for a death sentence (we'd try them on conspiracy charges, far easer than trying them for treason proper), though the full sentence would probably only be given to the leaders because of political issues.

Now that I've covered that tangent, back to the issue at hand, but keep in mind, there is a HUGE difference between acting like a 6th century people IN the 6th century, and acting like a 6th century people in the 21st Century.

Quote
But what Muhammed does is "pure evil". And the religion of Justinian and Joshua is sacred, it could never even so much as be questioned. But the religion of Muhammed, well we can dismiss it outright without even having tried to understand it. (I realise that some people have studied it, but the overwhelming majority are just going on the 20 second sound bites they hear on the news, what their equally uninformed friends say, etc.)

Islam can be objectively judged today, one does not have to subjectively submit it to any religion of philosophical system. Christians, Jews, Atheists, Hindus, Buddhists, Animists, Shintoists, Pagans, etc., etc. can all live in harmony with each other, the worst of this group is probably the very small portion of Christians of the evangelical stripe, but the worst they'll do is annoy you and try to convert you, they are not going to strap explosives to their chest and blow themselves up in a Hindu temple. This worst of the 'rest of the world' group doesn't even compare to Islam, Islam is unable to live with anyone. Who ever they live with they show violence towards, be it the Genocide of Christians, blowing themselves up to kill Jews, or destroying Ancient Buddhist religious sites, in all this there is one constant, Islam. And dont tell me about how Christians acted in 1200 AD or how Jews acted in 1500 BC, this is not 1200 AD or 1500 BC, this is the 21st Century, actions that may have been acceptable and commonplace then are not acceptable now. Everyone but Islam has recognized it, thus it can objectively be stated that Islam is evil, and that Islam is a threat...a threat that I have long advocated neutralizing.
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« Reply #216 on: August 20, 2006, 03:40:47 PM »

I agree with you Greekischristian. Look at any land muslims have been able to take for themselves, "Turkey", northern Cyprus, the Middle East. It's always in ruins and on the brink of more death and destruction. I was look at some really old pictures of my mom and my grandparents' families. Some of the pics were from the 60's and I could've sworn that it was Europe and not the Middle East (where they were residing). The streets had big beautiful lamps and shrubery, and the people in the picture were beautiful and had nice clean classy clothes- there were no headscarves or veils covering women's eyes. Then again many Europeans were living in the middle east back then...another interesting pic I saw was of my grandmother's older sister. She was some sort of cadet, but in her hands, she was holding this large Turkish flag! I guess she was forced to do it...Bt back to my point. If you look at the middle east today, it is completely the opposite than the rest of the world. As the rest of the world becomes more open, the middle east becomes more and more closed.

I wonder what it would take to start a Christian revolution, a peaceful one, where Christians regain their sense of awareness of their faith, instead of having to make excuses for everyone elses religion.
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« Reply #217 on: August 20, 2006, 04:40:54 PM »

I agree with you Greekischristian. Look at any land muslims have been able to take for themselves, "Turkey"

Putting "Turkey" in quotes and suggesting the Muslims stole Asia Minor from the Greeks is naive. Even if the Turkic tribes had not converted to Islam, they still would have swept into Anatolia and created a new and distinct nation.
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« Reply #218 on: August 20, 2006, 06:02:38 PM »

But I do have a question for Linus and Nacho.  You both agree that America needs to keep Muslims out of here.  How do you think that can be done?

The Israeli approach could be adapted:

As we read in the review Missioni Consolata of June 1990,
The Israeli High Court of Justice has declared that no-one who believes in Christ, even if he is not baptized, can obtain Israeli citizenship.
On this occasion, the judgment concerned a young Jewish couple, Gary and Shirley Beresford, who had emigrated from Zimbabwe to Israel and "who have been refused citizenship simply for believing in Christ." Their appeal to the High Court of Justice was rejected, the judges having "decided that it was irrelevant that, quite apart from not having been baptized, they were Jews by birth and had declared that they kept all the Jewish traditions" (ibid.). In the same periodical, we learn that the same High Court of Justice confirmed the sentence handed down by an Israeli tribunal against a Jewish soldier, Richard Sorko-Ram, "for having publicly expressed his admiration for the figure of Jesus."


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« Reply #219 on: August 20, 2006, 11:01:20 PM »

Putting "Turkey" in quotes and suggesting the Muslims stole Asia Minor from the Greeks is naive.

No.  It's a matter of historical fact.  The Muslims had always wanted to conquer the entire civilized world.

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Even if the Turkic tribes had not converted to Islam, they still would have swept into Anatolia and created a new and distinct nation.

That's just speculation.  How naive.


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« Reply #220 on: August 21, 2006, 01:15:24 AM »

Right on Theognosis.
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« Reply #221 on: August 21, 2006, 04:29:17 AM »

No.  It's a matter of historical fact.  The Muslims had always wanted to conquer the entire civilized world. ... That's just speculation.  How naive.

It's a matter of historical fact that the Turks were already on their way to Anatolia when they encountered Islam, and Turkic tribes had already swept from the Pacific Ocean to Eastern Europe. Do you think they would have stopped just short of the border had they not become Muslims?
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« Reply #222 on: August 21, 2006, 06:28:45 AM »

It's a matter of historical fact that the Turks were already on their way to Anatolia when they encountered Islam, and Turkic tribes had already swept from the Pacific Ocean to Eastern Europe. Do you think they would have stopped just short of the border had they not become Muslims?

I don't think this is correct. The confederation of the Turkic peoples was divided for a second time into east and west factions in the eigth century. It was when the Islamic Emevi army allied itself with the Western faction against the Chinese in the Battle of Talas in AD751 (and they won) that the western faction adopted Islam, while the eastern faction subsequently collapsed. So Islam was not only a unifying force for the Turkic peoples, but it also meant that they were able to attract allies from other Islamic states. I don't think the Turkic peoples would have been anywhere near as successful militarily had they not adopted Islam.
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« Reply #223 on: August 21, 2006, 07:25:46 AM »

Putting "Turkey" in quotes and suggesting the Muslims stole Asia Minor from the Greeks is naive. Even if the Turkic tribes had not converted to Islam, they still would have swept into Anatolia and created a new and distinct nation.

Yep; from Greeks, Armenians, Laz, Karamanlis, Syrians, and others.

Second of your comments has been adequately dealt with already. Thanks, Theognosis
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« Reply #224 on: August 21, 2006, 12:36:41 PM »

I don't think this is correct. The confederation of the Turkic peoples was divided for a second time into east and west factions in the eigth century. It was when the Islamic Emevi army allied itself with the Western faction against the Chinese in the Battle of Talas in AD751 (and they won) that the western faction adopted Islam, while the eastern faction subsequently collapsed. So Islam was not only a unifying force for the Turkic peoples, but it also meant that they were able to attract allies from other Islamic states. I don't think the Turkic peoples would have been anywhere near as successful militarily had they not adopted Islam.

Even if it is true that the Turks became more powerful from adopting Islam, it doesn't change the fact that they had already begun expansion prior to Islam. How can one blame Islam's values for Turkic expansion if it was there before conversion? There are plenty of good examples of Muslim invasion, that of Asia Minor is too shaky to be useful.

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