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Author Topic: Orthodoxy and Abortion: Particularly for Father Ambrose, NZ  (Read 11008 times) Average Rating: 0
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Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
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« Reply #90 on: January 29, 2011, 10:49:54 AM »

Seriously, what does the article say?  That a majority of Orthodox Christians in America support abortion despite the clear teachings of the Church.  If the Orthodox Church didn't teach quite clearly that abortion was wrong there would be no reason for the article at all.  And I must say that the crowing Roman Catholic triumphalism on this thread is really out of place, when a majority of Roman Catholics in America also support the same thing, despite very clear pronouncements coming from the Pope.  This isn't a question of magesterium versus collegiality, it's a question of fallen and rebellious human beings rejecting what the Church has to say in support of their own "wisdom".  Houses need to be cleaned, surely, but forgive us if we don't invite you in to run the maid service when your own house has been declared a toxic dumping site.

Precisely! It was almost Alice in Wonderland, both sides arguing whether or not our teachings are clear, when the article did not suggest in any way, shape or form that clarity of teaching was an issue. How in the world do we get sidetracked so easily? In any case, for those who apparently have not read the article (except for FormerReformer), here are the opening paragraphs (my emphasis):

"On a post on my blog Koinoia (“An Editorial: Orthodoxy & the Public Square“), I wrote that whether or not I like Frank Schaeffer’s politics or his moral theology, or whether or not his support of abortion and gay rights are compatible with the tradition of the Church, the reality is that he is well within the mainstream of current Orthodox opinion in America. According to the PEW survey, the majority of Orthodox laity agree that abortion and gay marriage should be legal.  It may surprise you, then, that the problem isn’t Schaeffer – it’s us; specifically, it’s the clergy.  For reasons that are not entirely clear to me, we clergy are not effectively communicating the moral tradition of the Church to the laity.  Or, if we are, the laity aren’t listening –- which would imply that the clergy are willing to tolerate the laity ignoring the Gospel.

We see the same prevalence of pro-choice, pro-gay marriage positions among Orthodox politicians.  This kind of a consistent pattern of belief does not just happen.  As in the Catholic Church, we see in the Orthodox Church evidence of a significant pastoral failing.  This appears to be more than just a widespread lack of sound moral education for the faithful.  It appears to be an embrace of, or at least resignation to, the influence of secularism in our parishes. "

It seems to me that we can argue whether the clergy is at fault for this state of affairs but we are not entitled to our own facts. The fact is that both Orthodox and Roman Catholic people (not teachings, dogma, encyclicals, and not any particular hierarch--except may the current EP) are either in favor of, or indifferent to, abortion. The fact is that the author tacitly acknowledges that there are no problems with the teachings of the church. Now, some like legalese and are Roman Catholic; others are not so enamored with legalese and may or may not be Roman Catholic. Who cares! However, there is no earthly justification for the way that some of us get on our hobby horses whenever such buttons are pushed. Myself included. May the Lord forgive my petty passions, emotions and anger.
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« Reply #91 on: January 29, 2011, 11:37:51 AM »

Definitely some over reacting here.  I find that curious.

In any event, the points I've been making are:

1. That is an insightful article written by Father Gregory and we all should pay heed to it.

2. That if the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholic Church are going to stand together against the intrinsic and heinous sin of abortion, then I think that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement that comes from the leadership, and not just from lay groups or individual jurisdictions that states as the Catholic Church states that abortion is wrong under ANY and ALL circumstances.  Otherwise we are not really presenting a united voice.

The best you've all been able to come up with so far is an attack on the messenger...figures.

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« Reply #92 on: January 29, 2011, 11:39:03 AM »

A canon from the ecumenical council isn't valid enough?
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« Reply #93 on: January 29, 2011, 11:55:29 AM »

I think that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement that comes from the leadership, and not just from ... individual jurisdictions

I don't understand the distinction you draw here. If a jurisdiction makes a statement, it is made by and under the authority of the leadership of that jurisdiction.
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« Reply #94 on: January 29, 2011, 12:16:06 PM »

Definitely some over reacting here.  I find that curious.

In any event, the points I've been making are:

1. That is an insightful article written by Father Gregory and we all should pay heed to it.

2. That if the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholic Church are going to stand together against the intrinsic and heinous sin of abortion, then I think that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement that comes from the leadership, and not just from lay groups or individual jurisdictions that states as the Catholic Church states that abortion is wrong under ANY and ALL circumstances.  Otherwise we are not really presenting a united voice.

The best you've all been able to come up with so far is an attack on the messenger...figures.
You mean the self appointed prophet.  We have specifc instructions of how to deal with false prophets.  Deuteronomy 13.

1. So you found something to fashion a gnat strainer out of. And we are supposed to stand in awe. Roll Eyes

2. The thought of your supreme pontiff that when he says "jump!" we should ask how high lays at the problem of doiing anything with you all: did your visible head make a plain statement that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement, or is this the veiled suggestion of his invisible minions?

Since we do not follow the artificial equation that the Vatican has made "barrier method=abortion," it is not going to be a united voice according to your criteria.

The individial Orthodox Churches speak for the Catholic Church on this issue.  The Vatican does not.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 12:17:35 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #95 on: January 29, 2011, 12:22:18 PM »

I think that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement that comes from the leadership, and not just from ... individual jurisdictions

I don't understand the distinction you draw here. If a jurisdiction makes a statement, it is made by and under the authority of the leadership of that jurisdiction.

Right.  I see my lapse.  I was thinking in terms of a joint statement coming from all patriarchates and major metropolitan sees....That is was I was trying to indicate.  

You see, what I am looking at now are a variety of statements, some of which are uncompromising, others not so much and a couple of them non-committal with respect to banning abortion under ANY and ALL circumstances.  And it makes me think that it would be good to have one uni-vocal and unequivocal statement signed on to by all Patriarchs and Metropolitans.   In that way there would be less room for confusion...and I single document through which one can answer the concerns of the faithful and also one that is clear when confronting the secular world and governments.

All commandments are observed primarily in the breach, by sinners, but that does not mean that the commandments are suggestions or that they should be abandoned because nobody pays attention to them.

It's a matter then also of providing a fully united Catholic front against the secular world...if we are going to do any of that at all.

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« Reply #96 on: January 29, 2011, 12:23:02 PM »

Anyone else think this thread is ridonkulous?

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #97 on: January 29, 2011, 12:23:40 PM »

Right.  I see my lapse.  I was thinking in terms of a joint statement coming from all patriarchates and major metropolitan sees....That is was I was trying to indicate.  

We have already done. In 692.
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« Reply #98 on: January 29, 2011, 12:24:52 PM »

Definitely some over reacting here.  I find that curious.

In any event, the points I've been making are:

1. That is an insightful article written by Father Gregory and we all should pay heed to it.

2. That if the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholic Church are going to stand together against the intrinsic and heinous sin of abortion, then I think that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement that comes from the leadership, and not just from lay groups or individual jurisdictions that states as the Catholic Church states that abortion is wrong under ANY and ALL circumstances.  Otherwise we are not really presenting a united voice.

The best you've all been able to come up with so far is an attack on the messenger...figures.
You mean the self appointed prophet.  We have specifc instructions of how to deal with false prophets.  Deuteronomy 13.

1. So you found something to fashion a gnat strainer out of. And we are supposed to stand in awe. Roll Eyes

2. The thought of your supreme pontiff that when he says "jump!" we should ask how high lays at the problem of doiing anything with you all: did your visible head make a plain statement that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement, or is this the veiled suggestion of his invisible minions?

Since we do not follow the artificial equation that the Vatican has made "barrier method=abortion," it is not going to be a united voice according to your criteria.

The individial Orthodox Churches speak for the Catholic Church on this issue.  The Vatican does not.

The Catholic position is presented by the Catholic Church in union with the pope in Rome.  

The Orthodox Catholic position is not in line with the Catholic Church at the moment.  Quite right.  There may be movement in that direction....or not.  It depends on our hierarchs.

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« Reply #99 on: January 29, 2011, 12:27:16 PM »

Anyone else think this thread is ridonkulous?

In Christ,
Andrew

I think it has become unnecessarily contentious.
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« Reply #100 on: January 29, 2011, 12:43:47 PM »

I usually don't take offense to the comments coming from both sides on this thread. They may upset me, but I try not to dwell on them. However. the continued charge that our Orthodox Church somehow preaches an erroneous or inconsistent position regarding the act of abortion is a red herring which bears false witness against the true teachings of our Holy Church. I take comfort that I do not believe that such misplaced zeal on the part of a few misguided advocates in any way represents the actual belief and teachings of the Supreme Pontiff of that Church as regards the dogmatic position of our respective Churches. There may be different words used by us in our respective communions which to some appear as a wide ocean of difference, but, sadly,that has been the case throughout our mutual history on many (but not all) issues which divide us. Let us set these issues aside and pray for the souls of the unborn and the salvation of those who have chosen contrary to the teachings of The Church.
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« Reply #101 on: January 29, 2011, 01:24:47 PM »

I think that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement that comes from the leadership, and not just from ... individual jurisdictions

I don't understand the distinction you draw here. If a jurisdiction makes a statement, it is made by and under the authority of the leadership of that jurisdiction.

Right.  I see my lapse.  I was thinking in terms of a joint statement coming from all patriarchates and major metropolitan sees....That is was I was trying to indicate.  

You see, what I am looking at now are a variety of statements, some of which are uncompromising, others not so much and a couple of them non-committal with respect to banning abortion under ANY and ALL circumstances.  And it makes me think that it would be good to have one uni-vocal and unequivocal statement signed on to by all Patriarchs and Metropolitans.   In that way there would be less room for confusion...and I single document through which one can answer the concerns of the faithful and also one that is clear when confronting the secular world and governments.

All commandments are observed primarily in the breach, by sinners, but that does not mean that the commandments are suggestions or that they should be abandoned because nobody pays attention to them.

It's a matter then also of providing a fully united Catholic front against the secular world...if we are going to do any of that at all.

Yeah, we know where you are leading
Pastor Aeternus....For this reason it has always been necessary for every Church--that is to say the faithful throughout the world--to be in agreement with the Roman Church because of its more effective leadership. In consequence of being joined, as members to head, with that see, from which the rights of sacred communion flow to all, they will grow together into the structure of a single body....In this way, by unity with the Roman Pontiff in communion and in profession of the same faith , the Church of Christ becomes one flock under one Supreme Shepherd....This is the teaching of the Catholic truth, and no one can depart from it without endangering his faith and salvation....
but we'll stick to the straight and narrow path and not wander off with you down that crooked trail beyond the mountains.
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« Reply #102 on: January 29, 2011, 01:25:24 PM »

Anyone else think this thread is ridonkulous?

In Christ,
Andrew

I think it has become unnecessarily contentious.
Lying tends to cause that.
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Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
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« Reply #103 on: January 29, 2011, 01:37:36 PM »

Definitely some over reacting here.  I find that curious.

In any event, the points I've been making are:

1. That is an insightful article written by Father Gregory and we all should pay heed to it.

2. That if the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholic Church are going to stand together against the intrinsic and heinous sin of abortion, then I think that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement that comes from the leadership, and not just from lay groups or individual jurisdictions that states as the Catholic Church states that abortion is wrong under ANY and ALL circumstances.  Otherwise we are not really presenting a united voice.

The best you've all been able to come up with so far is an attack on the messenger...figures.
You mean the self appointed prophet.  We have specifc instructions of how to deal with false prophets.  Deuteronomy 13.

1. So you found something to fashion a gnat strainer out of. And we are supposed to stand in awe. Roll Eyes

2. The thought of your supreme pontiff that when he says "jump!" we should ask how high lays at the problem of doiing anything with you all: did your visible head make a plain statement that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement, or is this the veiled suggestion of his invisible minions?

Since we do not follow the artificial equation that the Vatican has made "barrier method=abortion," it is not going to be a united voice according to your criteria.

The individial Orthodox Churches speak for the Catholic Church on this issue.  The Vatican does not.

The Catholic position is presented by the Catholic Church in union with the pope in Rome.


The pope in the Vatican has ceased to confess the Orthodox Faith of SS. Peter and Paul, and as such speaks only for himself and those who submit to him as their supreme pontiff.  Only those in union with SS. Peter and Paul can present the Catholic position, such as St. Peter's successors

and the Popes


The Orthodox Catholic position is not in line with the Catholic Church at the moment.
That is a contradiction in terms.  On the Vatican "And faith unfaithful kept him falsely true."

Quite right.
Correct Ortho Dox "Right" "Faith"

There may be movement in that direction....or not.  It depends on our hierarchs.
Whenever you are ready to repent.
« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 01:49:14 PM by ialmisry » Logged

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« Reply #104 on: January 29, 2011, 03:14:28 PM »

Definitely some over reacting here.  I find that curious.

In any event, the points I've been making are:

1. That is an insightful article written by Father Gregory and we all should pay heed to it.

2. That if the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholic Church are going to stand together against the intrinsic and heinous sin of abortion, then I think that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement that comes from the leadership, and not just from lay groups or individual jurisdictions that states as the Catholic Church states that abortion is wrong under ANY and ALL circumstances.  Otherwise we are not really presenting a united voice.

The best you've all been able to come up with so far is an attack on the messenger...figures.
You mean the self appointed prophet.  We have specifc instructions of how to deal with false prophets.  Deuteronomy 13.

1. So you found something to fashion a gnat strainer out of. And we are supposed to stand in awe. Roll Eyes

2. The thought of your supreme pontiff that when he says "jump!" we should ask how high lays at the problem of doiing anything with you all: did your visible head make a plain statement that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement, or is this the veiled suggestion of his invisible minions?

Since we do not follow the artificial equation that the Vatican has made "barrier method=abortion," it is not going to be a united voice according to your criteria.

The individial Orthodox Churches speak for the Catholic Church on this issue.  The Vatican does not.

The Catholic position is presented by the Catholic Church in union with the pope in Rome.  

The Orthodox Catholic position is not in line with the Catholic Church at the moment.  Quite right.  There may be movement in that direction....or not.  It depends on our hierarchs.



Father Ambrose asked for a citation from Rev. Dr. Stanley S. Harakas, the most well known Orthodox writer on moral theology in the United States, at least.

I had indicated that circumstance dictates the morality of abortion for Orthodoxy based upon what the Ecumenical Patriarch has said, and never retracted, and the fact that the Greek Orthodox priest, Father Stanley supports to this day, and has not retracted.

Father Ambrose has demanded a citation.  So here it is...the contingency of Orthodox moral teaching on abortion...at least from the Greek perspective.   I have heard no outcry against Father Stanley's position from any jurisdiction.

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101

Quote
The Orthodox Church brands abortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce to abortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die.
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« Reply #105 on: January 29, 2011, 03:14:28 PM »

http://books.google.com/books?id=gGqPftVkwgUC&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126&dq=Stanley+Harakas+on+Abortion&source=bl&ots=OdFDvxcQNC&sig=SO4ZtPIZ197pNtfQIvOaa7zq_MU&hl=en&ei=R0tETe3mBoydgQfE5MSVAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Stanley%20Harakas%20on%20Abortion&f=false

Also Father John Meyendorff in his book Witness To The World supports Father Stanley's contingent approach to maternal health and abortion.

So it seems to me that the Orthodox Church, in some way, not only does not stand with the Catholic Church on birth control but also does not stand with her on abortion either.

Again, my point that we cannot present a united front to the secular world seems to be true.

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« Reply #106 on: January 29, 2011, 03:14:28 PM »

Whenever you are ready to repent.
Speaking of which, when are you going to repent of your sin of schism?
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« Reply #107 on: January 29, 2011, 04:15:29 PM »

Whenever you are ready to repent.
Speaking of which, when are you going to repent of your sin of schism?
Those guilty of schism have to repent of it, not the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
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« Reply #108 on: January 29, 2011, 04:25:06 PM »



I had indicated that circumstance dictates the morality of abortion for Orthodoxy based upon what the Ecumenical Patriarch has said, and never retracted, and the fact that the Greek Orthodox priest, Father Stanley supports to this day, and has not retracted.

Father Ambrose has demanded a citation.  So here it is...the contingency of Orthodox moral teaching on abortion...at least from the Greek perspective.   I have heard no outcry against Father Stanley's position from any jurisdiction. 

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101

Quote
The Orthodox Church brands abortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce to abortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die.

http://books.google.com/books?id=gGqPftVkwgUC&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126&dq=Stanley+Harakas+on+Abortion&source=bl&ots=OdFDvxcQNC&sig=SO4ZtPIZ197pNtfQIvOaa7zq_MU&hl=en&ei=R0tETe3mBoydgQfE5MSVAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Stanley%20Harakas%20on%20Abortion&f=false

Also Father John Meyendorff in his book Witness To The World supports Father Stanley's contingent approach to maternal health and abortion.

So it seems to me that the Orthodox Church, in some way, not only does not stand with the Catholic Church on birth control but also does not stand with her on abortion either.

Again, my point that we cannot present a united front to the secular world seems to be true.

I see.  Because we're willing to spend the Sabbath looking for a lost lamb, that makes you the more "right" proponent of Judaism.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #109 on: January 29, 2011, 04:28:50 PM »


What part of Fr.Meyendorff's "that fact that the issue [of abortion], in Orthodox Tradition, is plainly obvious" did you miss?

So it seems to me
And who are you?

And who asked you?

that the Orthodox Church, in some way, not only does not stand with the Catholic Church on birth control but also does not stand with her on abortion either.
The Orthodox stands as the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.  She need not submit to diktats from the soereign of hte Vatican City, nor jump through hoops he or his minions demand.

Again, my point that we cannot present a united front to the secular world seems to be true.
Not on your dictated terms, no. We learned from the example of Emperor Alexis Comnene and the True Champion of the Christian Faith (so the Vatican said) Prince Stefan III the Great, who taught us that while presenting that united front with the Vatican to the non-Christians, watch your back.
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« Reply #110 on: January 29, 2011, 04:39:28 PM »

Definitely some over reacting here.  I find that curious.

In any event, the points I've been making are:

1. That is an insightful article written by Father Gregory and we all should pay heed to it.

2. That if the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholic Church are going to stand together against the intrinsic and heinous sin of abortion, then I think that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement that comes from the leadership, and not just from lay groups or individual jurisdictions that states as the Catholic Church states that abortion is wrong under ANY and ALL circumstances.  Otherwise we are not really presenting a united voice.

The best you've all been able to come up with so far is an attack on the messenger...figures.
You mean the self appointed prophet.  We have specifc instructions of how to deal with false prophets.  Deuteronomy 13.

1. So you found something to fashion a gnat strainer out of. And we are supposed to stand in awe. Roll Eyes

2. The thought of your supreme pontiff that when he says "jump!" we should ask how high lays at the problem of doiing anything with you all: did your visible head make a plain statement that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement, or is this the veiled suggestion of his invisible minions?

Since we do not follow the artificial equation that the Vatican has made "barrier method=abortion," it is not going to be a united voice according to your criteria.

The individial Orthodox Churches speak for the Catholic Church on this issue.  The Vatican does not.

The Catholic position is presented by the Catholic Church in union with the pope in Rome.  

The Orthodox Catholic position is not in line with the Catholic Church at the moment.  Quite right.  There may be movement in that direction....or not.  It depends on our hierarchs.



Father Ambrose asked for a citation from Rev. Dr. Stanley S. Harakas, the most well known Orthodox writer on moral theology in the United States, at least.

I had indicated that circumstance dictates the morality of abortion for Orthodoxy based upon what the Ecumenical Patriarch has said, and never retracted, and the fact that the Greek Orthodox priest, Father Stanley supports to this day, and has not retracted.

Father Ambrose has demanded a citation.  So here it is...the contingency of Orthodox moral teaching on abortion...at least from the Greek perspective.   I have heard no outcry against Father Stanley's position from any jurisdiction.

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101

Quote
The Orthodox Church brands abortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce to abortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die.
So, let's presume that the Orthodox Church doesn't agree with the Vatican (not that I am saying that, but it's easier to say that than to extract the bee from your bonnet). So this <3% of all abortions, you would rather unite with the Orthodox against the >97% of abortions. Couple this with the only 3% of the followers of the Vatican who follow Humanae Vitae, and you have yourself quite an impressive coalition there. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #111 on: January 29, 2011, 04:45:09 PM »

Whenever you are ready to repent.
Speaking of which, when are you going to repent of your sin of schism?
Those guilty of schism have to repent of it, not the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Exactly...so when are you going to?
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« Reply #112 on: January 29, 2011, 05:28:22 PM »


In this situation, the Orthodox have nothing to repent.

We are the One True Church of Christ.  The one He founded.
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« Reply #113 on: January 29, 2011, 05:37:37 PM »

Are there any Romans out there of charitable temperament who would speak out in defense of Orthodoxy's position on abortion? It seems that only those interested in perpetuating calumny are online.
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« Reply #114 on: January 29, 2011, 05:38:55 PM »

We are the One True Church of Christ.  The one He founded.
Except you are not one, but many.
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« Reply #115 on: January 29, 2011, 06:37:39 PM »

Are there any Romans out there of charitable temperament who would speak out in defense of Orthodoxy's position on abortion? It seems that only those interested in perpetuating calumny are online.

How is it calumny, which is a false charge made with malice, to say, with references, "No.  It is not at all clear that the Orthodox Church teaches the same thing as the Catholic Church teaches with respect to the intrinsic nature of the sin of abortion."

It is not the same teaching and cannot be defended as such.  I am not personally condemning anyone or any body of beings. 

I am saying that the teachings are not the same, and people in the world of secular governments and lawmakers will know that and use it against us to foment discord and detract from the unity we might seek to present.

Now if you think that is malicious on my part, I can't help you.  But point of fact says that what I am telling you is not false.  So you cannot call it calumny by definition.  The best you can do is say that I am malicious.

Mary
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« Reply #116 on: January 29, 2011, 07:08:03 PM »

Are there any Romans out there of charitable temperament who would speak out in defense of Orthodoxy's position on abortion? It seems that only those interested in perpetuating calumny are online.

How is it calumny, which is a false charge made with malice, to say, with references, "No.  It is not at all clear that the Orthodox Church teaches the same thing as the Catholic Church teaches with respect to the intrinsic nature of the sin of abortion."

It is not the same teaching and cannot be defended as such.  I am not personally condemning anyone or any body of beings. 

I am saying that the teachings are not the same, and people in the world of secular governments and lawmakers will know that and use it against us to foment discord and detract from the unity we might seek to present.

Now if you think that is malicious on my part, I can't help you.  But point of fact says that what I am telling you is not false.  So you cannot call it calumny by definition.  The best you can do is say that I am malicious.

Mary

It is a malicious falsehood, hence it is bearing of false witness and calumny. Sorry, but your arguments are self serving and prove nothing.

For serious people I suggest you turn your time away from this thread and return to Orthodox Info to read the brief submitted by Orthodox Christians for life to the Supreme Court. Sorry it bothers some of you that we don't have a single voice to speak for all of us like your vision of the papacy  (that's working out well for you given the actual beliefs of people professing to be Catholic when polled on abortion....we have the same problem, but that is another discussion.) but we have the Church to speak for us through human mouths and this legal brief states the Church's position.


from the brief:

CONCLUSION
The historic morality which forms the foundation of American constitutional thought is firmly grounded in the Judeo-Christian tradition. That tradition has unambiguously recognized that life begins at conception, and that abortion is murder. The notion that abortion on demand is an inherent right which cannot be denied, is of recent origin. Samuel Adams recognized that such innovations should be resisted: "If the liberties of America are ever completely ruined,... it will in all probability be the consequence of a mistaken notion of prudence, which leads men to acquiesce in measures of the most destructive tendency for the sake of present ease." [27]

The "present ease" of abortion on demand does not, and cannot, alter the historical and moral truth that "universal life would proceed according to nature if we would practice continence from the beginning instead of destroying, through immoral and pernicious acts, human beings who are given birth by Divine Providence." [28] The assembled jurisdictions of the Holy Orthodox Church in the United States speak with one voice in urging this Court to recognize the sanctity of human life, and reverse the decision of the Court of Appeals.

Dated this 21st day of February, 1989.

Respectfully submitted,

JAMES GEORGE JATRAS*
PAUL FARLEY
ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS FOR LIFE
http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/abortion.aspx


To hold otherwise, as you insist, can only be viewed as malicious as your position has no basis in fact.
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« Reply #117 on: January 29, 2011, 07:39:18 PM »

We are the One True Church of Christ.  The one He founded.
Except you are not one, but many.
Yes, the many sees founded by the Apostles in the East.  Not like the lone outpost in Rome.
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« Reply #118 on: January 29, 2011, 07:42:00 PM »

Are there any Romans out there of charitable temperament who would speak out in defense of Orthodoxy's position on abortion? It seems that only those interested in perpetuating calumny are online.

How is it calumny, which is a false charge made with malice, to say, with references, "No.  It is not at all clear that the Orthodox Church teaches the same thing as the Catholic Church teaches with respect to the intrinsic nature of the sin of abortion."

It is not the same teaching and cannot be defended as such.  I am not personally condemning anyone or any body of beings. 

I am saying that the teachings are not the same, and people in the world of secular governments and lawmakers will know that and use it against us to foment discord and detract from the unity we might seek to present.

Now if you think that is malicious on my part, I can't help you.  But point of fact says that what I am telling you is not false.  So you cannot call it calumny by definition.  The best you can do is say that I am malicious.
Well, good. So, since we are not going to Canossa, you can stop pestering us about Vatican-Orthodox talks which will go nowhere.
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« Reply #119 on: January 29, 2011, 09:57:19 PM »

The Amicus Curiae against Abortion Submitted to the Supreme Court of the United States
http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/abortion.aspx


There were many names.

Here are just the names of the bishops:

The American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Diocese:
His Grace, Bishop Nicholas;

The Anthiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America:
His Eminence, Most Rev. Metropolitan Philip;
Rt. Rev. Antun, Auxiliary Bishop; V

The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North and South America:
Rt. Rev. Maximos, Bishop of Pittsburgh;
Archbishop Iakovos Professor of Orthodox Theology and Christian Ethics, Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology;

The Orthodox Church in America:
His Beatitude Theodosius, Archbishop of Washington, Metropolitan of All America and Canada;
Rt. Rev. Peter, Bishop of New York and New Jersey;
Rt. Rev. Dimitri, Bishop of Dallas and the South;
Rt. Rev. Herman, Bishop of Philadelphia and Eastern Pennsylvania;
Rt. Rev. Gregory, Bishop of Sitka and Alaska;
Rt. Rev. Nathaniel, Bishop of Detroit and the Romanian Episcopate;
Rt. Rev. Job, Bishop of Hartford and New England;
Rt. Rev. Tikhon, Bishop of San Francisco;
Rt. Rev. Mark, Acting Bishop of Chicago and the Midwest;

The Russian Orthodox Church in Exile:
His Eminence, Most Rev. Vitaly, Metropolitan of New York and Eastern America, First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church in Exile;
Most Rev. Anthony, Archbishop of Los Angeles and Southern California;
Most Rev. Antony, Archbishop of San Francisco and Western America;
Most Rev. Laurus, Archbishop of Syracuse and Holy Trinity Monastery, Rector of Holy Trinity Orthodox Seminary, and Abbot of Holy Trinity Orthodox Monastery, Jordanville, New York;
Rt. Rev. Alypy, Bishop of Chicago, Detroit, and Midwest America;
Rt. Rev. Hilarion, Bishop of Manhattan;
Rt. Rev. Daniel, Bishop of Erie and Protector of the Old Rite;

The Serbian Orthodox Church in the United States and Canada:
His Grace, Bishop Christopher;

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of America and Canada:
His Grace, Bishop Vsevolod.

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« Reply #120 on: January 29, 2011, 10:10:56 PM »

And it makes me think that it would be good to have one uni-vocal and unequivocal statement signed on to by all Patriarchs and Metropolitans.   In that way there would be less room for confusion...and I single document through which one can answer the concerns of the faithful and also one that is clear when confronting the secular world and governments.


The Sixth Ecumenical Council
Canon XCI. Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the…



Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the foetus, are subjected to the penalty of murder.

Notes.

Ancient Epitome of Canon XCI.

Whoever gives or receives medicine to produce abortion is a homicide.

See Canon XXI. of Ancyra, and Canon II. of St. Basil; to wit, "She who purposely destroys the foetus, shall suffer the punishment of murder. And we pay no attention to the subtile distinction as to whether the foetus was formed or unformed. And by this not only is justice satisfied for the child that should have been born, but also for her who prepared for herself the snares, since the women very often die who make such experiments."

http://christianbookshelf.org/schaff/the_seven_ecumenical_councils/canon_xci_those_who_give.htm

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« Reply #121 on: January 29, 2011, 10:57:20 PM »

And it makes me think that it would be good to have one uni-vocal and unequivocal statement signed on to by all Patriarchs and Metropolitans.   In that way there would be less room for confusion...and I single document through which one can answer the concerns of the faithful and also one that is clear when confronting the secular world and governments.


The Sixth Ecumenical Council
Canon XCI. Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the…



Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the foetus, are subjected to the penalty of murder.

Notes.

Ancient Epitome of Canon XCI.

Whoever gives or receives medicine to produce abortion is a homicide.

See Canon XXI. of Ancyra, and Canon II. of St. Basil; to wit, "She who purposely destroys the foetus, shall suffer the punishment of murder. And we pay no attention to the subtile distinction as to whether the foetus was formed or unformed. And by this not only is justice satisfied for the child that should have been born, but also for her who prepared for herself the snares, since the women very often die who make such experiments."

http://christianbookshelf.org/schaff/the_seven_ecumenical_councils/canon_xci_those_who_give.htm




But you have to remember father, for the Catholic Church, ancient canons and centuries upon centuries of tradition are really of little consequence. All that matters is what the men who currently constitute the "magisterium" have to say.
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« Reply #122 on: January 30, 2011, 12:14:24 AM »

Maria,

A joint statement would be helpful.  However, despite the prevelance of abortion in the early church, after the Didache, we did not have a conciliar joint declaration until Trullo.  Instead, as with many things, the voice of individual church fathers and local councils prevailed beyond the borders as local voices expressing the universal belief (consensus patrem).  No Bishop of Rome issued any statements against abortion for the first millenium; rather, we find them in the fathers and synods in the east.  If you reply that they did respect life generally, well then I would reply that we have plenty of joint statements on the sanctity of life (I believe the synaxis either in 2008 or in 2000 stated this).   Again, as with the early Church, so also now, we have statements from the Synod of Greece, the Synod of Moscow, etc. that, as in early days, express the consensus patrem on the subject.  Again, I am not arguing that a joint statement would not be helpful, just that it is not necessary.   But you will find a constant unanimous consent of Orthodox canon law, which unambiguously condemns abortion.  What more is needed?   No new canon needs issued, a universal one was issued.  The pan-Orthodox synods and meetings have affirmed these canons and therefore confirm the position on abortion that the Church has always held. 


Definitely some over reacting here.  I find that curious.

In any event, the points I've been making are:

1. That is an insightful article written by Father Gregory and we all should pay heed to it.

2. That if the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholic Church are going to stand together against the intrinsic and heinous sin of abortion, then I think that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement that comes from the leadership, and not just from lay groups or individual jurisdictions that states as the Catholic Church states that abortion is wrong under ANY and ALL circumstances.  Otherwise we are not really presenting a united voice.

The best you've all been able to come up with so far is an attack on the messenger...figures.


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« Reply #123 on: January 30, 2011, 12:22:30 AM »

Are there any Romans out there of charitable temperament who would speak out in defense of Orthodoxy's position on abortion? It seems that only those interested in perpetuating calumny are online.

How is it calumny, which is a false charge made with malice, to say, with references, "No.  It is not at all clear that the Orthodox Church teaches the same thing as the Catholic Church teaches with respect to the intrinsic nature of the sin of abortion."

It is not the same teaching and cannot be defended as such.  I am not personally condemning anyone or any body of beings. 

I am saying that the teachings are not the same, and people in the world of secular governments and lawmakers will know that and use it against us to foment discord and detract from the unity we might seek to present.

Now if you think that is malicious on my part, I can't help you.  But point of fact says that what I am telling you is not false.  So you cannot call it calumny by definition.  The best you can do is say that I am malicious.

Mary

It is a malicious falsehood, hence it is bearing of false witness and calumny. Sorry, but your arguments are self serving and prove nothing.

For serious people I suggest you turn your time away from this thread and return to Orthodox Info to read the brief submitted by Orthodox Christians for life to the Supreme Court. Sorry it bothers some of you that we don't have a single voice to speak for all of us like your vision of the papacy  (that's working out well for you given the actual beliefs of people professing to be Catholic when polled on abortion....we have the same problem, but that is another discussion.) but we have the Church to speak for us through human mouths and this legal brief states the Church's position.


from the brief:

CONCLUSION
The historic morality which forms the foundation of American constitutional thought is firmly grounded in the Judeo-Christian tradition. That tradition has unambiguously recognized that life begins at conception, and that abortion is murder. The notion that abortion on demand is an inherent right which cannot be denied, is of recent origin. Samuel Adams recognized that such innovations should be resisted: "If the liberties of America are ever completely ruined,... it will in all probability be the consequence of a mistaken notion of prudence, which leads men to acquiesce in measures of the most destructive tendency for the sake of present ease." [27]

The "present ease" of abortion on demand does not, and cannot, alter the historical and moral truth that "universal life would proceed according to nature if we would practice continence from the beginning instead of destroying, through immoral and pernicious acts, human beings who are given birth by Divine Providence." [28] The assembled jurisdictions of the Holy Orthodox Church in the United States speak with one voice in urging this Court to recognize the sanctity of human life, and reverse the decision of the Court of Appeals.

Dated this 21st day of February, 1989.

Respectfully submitted,

JAMES GEORGE JATRAS*
PAUL FARLEY
ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS FOR LIFE
http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/abortion.aspx


To hold otherwise, as you insist, can only be viewed as malicious as your position has no basis in fact.

I am sorry you feel this way but Orthodoxy is seriously going to have to deal with the texts that I produced, and all those Orthodox bishops and people who agree with them.

They are not reflective of what the Catholic Church teaches and they are, in the case of the Ecumenical Patriarch, reflective of what is being taught to a large number of Orthodox Christians.

If you think that is malicious...well...then I am sorry for you because you don't know me at all and clearly have no idea what concerns me with this topic.

Mary
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« Reply #124 on: January 30, 2011, 12:22:31 AM »

We are the One True Church of Christ.  The one He founded.
Except you are not one, but many.
Yes, the many sees founded by the Apostles in the East.  Not like the lone outpost in Rome.
Christ prayed for us Christians to be one as He and the Father are one. He did not pray for us to be many.
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« Reply #125 on: January 30, 2011, 12:50:30 AM »

Anyone else think this thread is ridonkulous?

In Christ,
Andrew

I think it has become unnecessarily contentious.
It became unnecessarily contentious when you posted the OP.
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« Reply #126 on: January 30, 2011, 12:52:49 AM »

We are the One True Church of Christ.  The one He founded.
Except you are not one, but many.
Yes, the many sees founded by the Apostles in the East.  Not like the lone outpost in Rome.
Christ prayed for us Christians to be one as He and the Father are one. He did not pray for us to be many.
Yes, Three Persons in One Godhead.  If you want unity like the Vatican, try Allah.
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« Reply #127 on: January 30, 2011, 01:04:32 AM »

I am sorry you feel this way but Orthodoxy is seriously going to have to deal with the texts that I produced,
LOL. Or you'll do what?

The Orthodox have to only deal with the texts others have produced, like XCI of Constnatinople III (the one who anathematized your supreme pontiff).

and all those Orthodox bishops and people who agree with them.
Would they be those nameless Orthodox you keep telling us about, who are chomping at the bit to submit to the Vatican?

They are not reflective of what the Catholic Church teaches and they are, in the case of the Ecumenical Patriarch, reflective of what is being taught to a large number of Orthodox Christians.
Which splinter of a hair are you talking about specifically?

If you think that is malicious...well...then I am sorry for you because you don't know me at all and clearly have no idea what concerns me with this topic.
Sure we do.  You want to make an oppurtunity to prattle on about your much vaunted "magisterium."  We're not impressed, particularly, as Father pointed out, your supreme pontiffs didn't make any statement on abortion until relatively recent.
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« Reply #128 on: January 30, 2011, 03:53:54 AM »

Maria,

A joint statement would be helpful.  However, despite the prevelance of abortion in the early church, after the Didache, we did not have a conciliar joint declaration until Trullo.  Instead, as with many things, the voice of individual church fathers and local councils prevailed beyond the borders as local voices expressing the universal belief (consensus patrem).  No Bishop of Rome issued any statements against abortion for the first millenium; rather, we find them in the fathers and synods in the east.  If you reply that they did respect life generally, well then I would reply that we have plenty of joint statements on the sanctity of life (I believe the synaxis either in 2008 or in 2000 stated this).   Again, as with the early Church, so also now, we have statements from the Synod of Greece, the Synod of Moscow, etc. that, as in early days, express the consensus patrem on the subject.  Again, I am not arguing that a joint statement would not be helpful, just that it is not necessary.   But you will find a constant unanimous consent of Orthodox canon law, which unambiguously condemns abortion.  What more is needed?   No new canon needs issued, a universal one was issued.  The pan-Orthodox synods and meetings have affirmed these canons and therefore confirm the position on abortion that the Church has always held. 

Thanks very very much, Father!!

This is the discussion I was looking for.  I agree with you!  I do think a joint and clarifying statement would be exceptionally useful...precisely because of the statements made by Father Stanley and the EP, and the fact that we tend to keep the commandments mostly in the breach.

It's late and I am too tired to say much more.  But you're addressing my concerns here precisely and in the spirit in which I broached it in the first place.

Mary
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« Reply #129 on: January 30, 2011, 03:53:55 AM »

We are the One True Church of Christ.  The one He founded.
Except you are not one, but many.
Yes, the many sees founded by the Apostles in the East.  Not like the lone outpost in Rome.
Christ prayed for us Christians to be one as He and the Father are one. He did not pray for us to be many.
Yes, Three Persons in One Godhead.  If you want unity like the Vatican, try Allah.
Again, I am trying to talk about the differences in the ecclesiologies of our Churches and you keep changing the subject back to that city-state again. I wish you would stop being so evasive and stay on topic.
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« Reply #130 on: January 30, 2011, 03:59:26 AM »

We are the One True Church of Christ.  The one He founded.
Except you are not one, but many.
Yes, the many sees founded by the Apostles in the East.  Not like the lone outpost in Rome.
Christ prayed for us Christians to be one as He and the Father are one. He did not pray for us to be many.
Yes, Three Persons in One Godhead.  If you want unity like the Vatican, try Allah.
Again, I am trying to talk about the differences in the ecclesiologies of our Churches and you keep changing the subject back to that city-state again. I wish you would stop being so evasive and stay on topic.
Ironic, coming from the poster who started this off-topic battle of dueling ecclesiologies.
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« Reply #131 on: January 30, 2011, 12:30:59 PM »

I am probably not a good Catholic, nor a good (potential future) Orthodox, because I do not agree that abortion should be illegal in "any and all circumstances".

I think it should not be allowed in the vast majority of cases where it's don today.  However, I think it should be available, as a last resort, when the mother's life is at risk and she, or her family if she's unconscious, makes the choice for an abortion.

I don't think this should be an easy chiice. But I also don't think it should be illegal.
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« Reply #132 on: January 30, 2011, 12:59:33 PM »

I am probably not a good Catholic, nor a good (potential future) Orthodox, because I do not agree that abortion should be illegal in "any and all circumstances".

I think it should not be allowed in the vast majority of cases where it's don today.  However, I think it should be available, as a last resort, when the mother's life is at risk and she, or her family if she's unconscious, makes the choice for an abortion.

I don't think this should be an easy chiice. But I also don't think it should be illegal.

Dear Theistgal,

A good ob-gyn or a layman who has been in the pro-life "business" for a long time will tell you that the scenario that you present is so rare that it reaches very close to a statistical zero, and would be most likely to happen, if or when it happens as you describe above, because of an accident.   What you are talking about is the certain knowledge that removing the baby from the woman in case of such an accident would surely save her life. 

In reality in such cases, doctors would try to save both and in the final moment would instinctively grab for the life that has the best chance of recovery.  That is the reality of it, and it is so rare that it defies everything but the heart that is true with respect to the sanctity of life.  You don't need to legislate such things.  In fact there is no just human law in such cases. 

That is why we do not make laws or regulations that try to narrow to the last iota when it is appropriate to turn off the ventilators and increase the morphine.  I know.  I was with the doctors as my father lay dying.  IF I, or the doctors, had had to be reading law books as we made the choices we made in those final days and final hours, I would have begged them to just put me in jail and be done with it...preferably in blessed isolation.  No.  You don't invite the state in to the bedroom of the dying.  I hope to be long gone before we make that insane move.

In fact if you follow what the Church teaches then you never grab for what might look like an easy way out.  You use all of the resources at your command to save both lives.

In the end, at that last instant of decision, the Church says IF the child dies in the process of trying to save both, then there is no fault.  But you don't take the child from the womb, unless and until you know that child is dead or dying... 

There simply are NO circumstances where it is so clear that we can know that taking the child will save the mother or leaving the child will kill the mother.  Our medicine is too advanced for that.  When it is done it is done as a convenience, in essence...a safeguard rather than a certitude...and that is the easy way out and unacceptable to the Church.

You would not argue with John Paul II when he said that we have advanced as peoples and nations to the point where there is no need, except in the most rare instance, to employ capital punishment. 

This is a similar thing.  Medically the options to take, because we are advanced so far so as to make this possible,  would be to make every attempt to save both, and if the child dies, in utero, then thanks God for his mercy.
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« Reply #133 on: January 30, 2011, 01:23:32 PM »

I am probably not a good Catholic, nor a good (potential future) Orthodox, because I do not agree that abortion should be illegal in "any and all circumstances".

I think it should not be allowed in the vast majority of cases where it's don today.  However, I think it should be available, as a last resort, when the mother's life is at risk and she, or her family if she's unconscious, makes the choice for an abortion.

I don't think this should be an easy chiice. But I also don't think it should be illegal.

Dear Theistgal,

A good ob-gyn or a layman who has been in the pro-life "business" for a long time will tell you that the scenario that you present is so rare that it reaches very close to a statistical zero, and would be most likely to happen, if or when it happens as you describe above, because of an accident.   What you are talking about is the certain knowledge that removing the baby from the woman in case of such an accident would surely save her life.  
Since absolute certainty might be relatively rare, what about cases in which it is considered "very probable" that removing the baby would save the woman's life? Does the Catholic Church teach that, in the latter case, abortion is absolutely prohibited?
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 01:23:57 PM by Jetavan » Logged

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« Reply #134 on: January 30, 2011, 01:58:32 PM »


Since absolute certainty might be relatively rare, what about cases in which it is considered "very probable" that removing the baby would save the woman's life? Does the Catholic Church teach that, in the latter case, abortion is absolutely prohibited?


Anytime I read a discussion like this it brings a question to my mind. Would we ever consider killing the mother in order to save the child?  Undecided
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