OrthodoxChristianity.net
December 18, 2014, 01:59:46 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Orthodoxy and Abortion: Particularly for Father Ambrose, NZ  (Read 11306 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2011, 07:32:35 PM »

The poor, dead horse is looking rather mangy. All the beatings it has received have caused split hairs.

Well why don't you write and tell Father Gregory and Father Hans Jacobse who also must have thought the article had sufficient merit to have Father Gregory do a reprise of his first article.

You might want to mute the discussion though, eh?  

You fit right into what Father Gregory has said about Orthodox laity and clergy.

M.

I only skimmed the article.  I was looking for Church references.  I did not find any.  I only found talk about secular politicians.  Where there any Church statements approving abortion in the article?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 07:36:38 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,404


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2011, 07:36:20 PM »

Cool. Can you provide any kind of official statement today that is binding on all Orthodox throughout the world?


Theistgirl.

You have not understood.  This is our canon law.  For us it is as binding today as the first moment it was formulated.


Canon 91 of the Quinisext Ecumenical Council:

Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the foetus, are subjected to the penalty of murder.
I hope that that is stll the position of your Church.
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2011, 07:39:44 PM »

Cool. Can you provide any kind of official statement today that is binding on all Orthodox throughout the world?


Theistgirl.

You have not understood.  This is our canon law.  For us it is as binding today as the first moment it was formulated.


Canon 91 of the Quinisext Ecumenical Council:

Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the foetus, are subjected to the penalty of murder.
I hope that that is stll the position of your Church.

I believe that is what I said.

For some reasons which we shall not enquire into, Mary feels the need to demonise Orthodoxy on certain topics which she keeps returning to - abortion, sexual liberalism...
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,404


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2011, 07:41:36 PM »

Cool. Can you provide any kind of official statement today that is binding on all Orthodox throughout the world?


Theistgirl.

You have not understood.  This is our canon law.  For us it is as binding today as the first moment it was formulated.


Canon 91 of the Quinisext Ecumenical Council:

Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the foetus, are subjected to the penalty of murder.
I hope that that is stll the position of your Church.

I believe that is what I said.

For some reasons which we shall not enquire into, Mary feels the need to demonise Orthodoxy on certain topics which she keeps returning to - abortion, sexual liberalism...
You mean the way a certain Eastern Orthodox Priest-Monk from NZ is constantly demonizing the Catholic Church?  Cheesy
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2011, 07:54:49 PM »

Cool. Can you provide any kind of official statement today that is binding on all Orthodox throughout the world?


Theistgirl.

You have not understood.  This is our canon law.  For us it is as binding today as the first moment it was formulated.


Canon 91 of the Quinisext Ecumenical Council:

Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the foetus, are subjected to the penalty of murder.
I hope that that is stll the position of your Church.

I believe that is what I said.

For some reasons which we shall not enquire into, Mary feels the need to demonise Orthodoxy on certain topics which she keeps returning to - abortion, sexual liberalism...
You mean the way a certain Eastern Orthodox Priest-Monk from NZ is constantly demonizing the Catholic Church?  Cheesy

No need to do that.  Even your top people say that the smoke of the demons has invaded the Vatican.

"The smoke of Satan,", warned Paul VI, "has found its way into the Church through the fissures."  It was an anguished warning that caused great shock and scandal, even within the Catholic world.
Logged
Papist
Patriarch of Pontification
Toumarches
************
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Jurisdiction: Byzantine
Posts: 12,404


Praying for the Christians in Iraq


« Reply #50 on: January 26, 2011, 07:55:36 PM »

Cool. Can you provide any kind of official statement today that is binding on all Orthodox throughout the world?


Theistgirl.

You have not understood.  This is our canon law.  For us it is as binding today as the first moment it was formulated.


Canon 91 of the Quinisext Ecumenical Council:

Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the foetus, are subjected to the penalty of murder.
I hope that that is stll the position of your Church.

I believe that is what I said.

For some reasons which we shall not enquire into, Mary feels the need to demonise Orthodoxy on certain topics which she keeps returning to - abortion, sexual liberalism...
You mean the way a certain Eastern Orthodox Priest-Monk from NZ is constantly demonizing the Catholic Church?  Cheesy

No need to do that.  Even your top people say that the smoke of the demons has invaded the Vatican.

"The smoke of Satan,", warned Paul VI, "has found its way into the Church through the fissures."  It was an anguished warning that caused great shock and scandal, even within the Catholic world.

Thank you for proving my point Fr. A.  Grin
Logged

You are right. I apologize for having sacked Constantinople. I really need to stop doing that.
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2011, 08:00:21 PM »

Cool. Can you provide any kind of official statement today that is binding on all Orthodox throughout the world?


Theistgirl.

You have not understood.  This is our canon law.  For us it is as binding today as the first moment it was formulated.


Canon 91 of the Quinisext Ecumenical Council:

Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the foetus, are subjected to the penalty of murder.
I hope that that is stll the position of your Church.

I believe that is what I said.

For some reasons which we shall not enquire into, Mary feels the need to demonise Orthodoxy on certain topics which she keeps returning to - abortion, sexual liberalism...
You mean the way a certain Eastern Orthodox Priest-Monk from NZ is constantly demonizing the Catholic Church?  Cheesy

No need to do that.  Even your top people say that the smoke of the demons has invaded the Vatican.

"The smoke of Satan,", warned Paul VI, "has found its way into the Church through the fissures."  It was an anguished warning that caused great shock and scandal, even within the Catholic world.

Thank you for proving my point Fr. A.  Grin

Merely agreeing with your holy Pope.  And I also say that the smoke of Satan has invaded the Phanar too, with the Patriarch's statement on abortion.   I pray to God that he never said that but to date he has issued no denial.
Logged
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2011, 09:23:27 PM »

no big deal, but it's "Theistgal", not "girl" - my girlhood days are long gone. Wink
Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,985



« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2011, 11:39:32 PM »

Once again, the dead horse has been trotted out for its annual beating. Here is the clear and unambiguous teaching of the Orthodox Church as succinctly stated by Fr. Stanley Harakas. http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101

The Orthodox Church has a definite, formal and intended attitude toward abortion. It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brands abortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce to abortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by which abortion, with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life.

This is not Catholic teaching.  I know you are not suggesting that it is.  However when Catholics point this out to Orthodox believers, somehow we are being insulting.

Orthodoxy formally makes exceptions for something which the Catholic Church makes no exceptions and does so in such a way that it leaves the message with the Orthodox believer that it is all right to choose to kill the in-utero child, under certain circumstances.

What the Catholic Church does say is that in those EXTREMELY RARE MEDICAL CIRCUMSTANCES where it is A CLEAR CHOICE....most of the time the choice is not at all that clear....if the effort to save the mother results in the death of the child then there has been no sin...BUT IF...the choice is made to kill the child to save the mother then there has been a murder committed.   Meaning that you just cannot go in and abort the baby and hope to save the mother once the baby is out of the way, which is what happens in fact in most of those instances.

What we must do is try everything humanly possible to save both.

So again, when we talk about joining together to present moral teaching in the world...It cannot be done because we do not teach the same thing.


On the contrary, dear ElijahMaria; you do not have to be lawyers or to resort to lawyer like verbiage to agree on this issue. We only need to agree on the principles here and we do agree so substantially that the difference that you cite is really meaningless. (OK, I'll give you that your verbiage is more precise but our principles are the same). So, the problem is again, application. Both of our churches have seen many laypersons in elected positions vote for pro-abortion legislation with nary a public rebuke from their spiritual fathers. Is this not a true scandal? Both of our churches are rife with clergy who are afraid to teach the Church's anti-abortion teachings because they fear they will alienate some (many?) of their parishioners. Is this not a tragic shortcoming? Against these, why are we quibbling about formulations of positions?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 11:40:20 PM by Second Chance » Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
deusveritasest
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: None
Jurisdiction: None
Posts: 7,528



WWW
« Reply #54 on: January 27, 2011, 01:59:08 AM »

isn't it scandalous that "According to the PEW survey, the majority of Orthodox laity agree that abortion and gay marriage should be legal" ?

With respect to the former, yes. With respect to the latter, because civil marriage is really a distinct reality from the Sacred Mystery of Matrimony, no, it shouldn't be.
Logged

I stopped posting here in August 2011 because of stark disagreement with the policies of the administration and moderating team of the forums. If you desire, feel free to PM me, message me on Facebook (link in profile), or email me: cddombrowski@gmail.com
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,985



« Reply #55 on: January 27, 2011, 11:34:31 AM »

I just posted the following on the "Christian News" and would appreciate your input in the context of Orthodox-Catholic diologue, particularly regarding the operationalization of our respective teachings regarding abortion, beyond the confessional.

"I do not have any other "official" accounts but the one from OCA (http://www.oca.org/news/2392). It seems that the participants in this year's march included only OCA hierarchs and priests:

"Joining Metropolitan Jonah in leading the Orthodox Christian marchers were His Grace, Bishop Tikhon of Philadelphia and Eastern Pennsylvania; His Grace, Bishop Michael of New York and New Jersey; His Grace, Bishop Melchisedek of Pittsburgh and Western Pennsylvania; Archimandrite Matthias, Bishop-Elect of Chicago and the Midwest; faculty and students from Saint Tikhon's Seminary, South Canaan, PA and Saint Vladimir's Seminary, Crestwood, NY; and Orthodox Christian clergy and faithful from the east coast and beyond."

My question, in light of a separate discussion on our teachings about abortion, is why is this so? It cannot be that other hierarchs are loath to participate in public marches. How can we Orthodox not show solidarity on an issue that we all agree on? Indeed, the lack of priests from other than OCA seems to indicate that their bishops have indicated that their participation is not desired. I really hope that I am wrong about this."
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 11:36:43 AM by Second Chance » Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,944


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #56 on: January 27, 2011, 11:42:34 AM »

I just posted the following on the "Christian News" and would appreciate your input in the context of Orthodox-Catholic diologue, particularly regarding the operationalization of our respective teachings regarding abortion, beyond the confessional.

"I do not have any other "official" accounts but the one from OCA (http://www.oca.org/news/2392). It seems that the participants in this year's march included only OCA hierarchs and priests:

"Joining Metropolitan Jonah in leading the Orthodox Christian marchers were His Grace, Bishop Tikhon of Philadelphia and Eastern Pennsylvania; His Grace, Bishop Michael of New York and New Jersey; His Grace, Bishop Melchisedek of Pittsburgh and Western Pennsylvania; Archimandrite Matthias, Bishop-Elect of Chicago and the Midwest; faculty and students from Saint Tikhon's Seminary, South Canaan, PA and Saint Vladimir's Seminary, Crestwood, NY; and Orthodox Christian clergy and faithful from the east coast and beyond."

My question, in light of a separate discussion on our teachings about abortion, is why is this so? It cannot be that other hierarchs are loath to participate in public marches. How can we Orthodox not show solidarity on an issue that we all agree on? Indeed, the lack of priests from other than OCA seems to indicate that their bishops have indicated that their participation is not desired. I really hope that I am wrong about this."

Your claim regarding the OCA's exclusivity is not true. I posted this link here yesterday. http://www.acrod.org/news/releases/2011-march In prior years when his health was robust, Metropolitan Nicholas was a regular fixture at the March with the prior Metropolitans of the OCA. Many busloads of faithful from ACROD have attended this event annually.
Logged
Shanghaiski
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 7,975


Holy Trinity Church of Gergeti, Georgia


« Reply #57 on: January 27, 2011, 11:53:21 AM »

The poor, dead horse is looking rather mangy. All the beatings it has received have caused split hairs.

Well why don't you write and tell Father Gregory and Father Hans Jacobse who also must have thought the article had sufficient merit to have Father Gregory do a reprise of his first article.

You might want to mute the discussion though, eh? 

You fit right into what Father Gregory has said about Orthodox laity and clergy.

M.

You appear to be the one grinding the axe here.
Logged

Quote from: GabrieltheCelt
If you spend long enough on this forum, you'll come away with all sorts of weird, untrue ideas of Orthodox Christianity.
Quote from: orthonorm
I would suggest most persons in general avoid any question beginning with why.
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,944


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #58 on: January 27, 2011, 12:08:25 PM »

I just posted the following on the "Christian News" and would appreciate your input in the context of Orthodox-Catholic diologue, particularly regarding the operationalization of our respective teachings regarding abortion, beyond the confessional.

"I do not have any other "official" accounts but the one from OCA (http://www.oca.org/news/2392). It seems that the participants in this year's march included only OCA hierarchs and priests:

"Joining Metropolitan Jonah in leading the Orthodox Christian marchers were His Grace, Bishop Tikhon of Philadelphia and Eastern Pennsylvania; His Grace, Bishop Michael of New York and New Jersey; His Grace, Bishop Melchisedek of Pittsburgh and Western Pennsylvania; Archimandrite Matthias, Bishop-Elect of Chicago and the Midwest; faculty and students from Saint Tikhon's Seminary, South Canaan, PA and Saint Vladimir's Seminary, Crestwood, NY; and Orthodox Christian clergy and faithful from the east coast and beyond."

My question, in light of a separate discussion on our teachings about abortion, is why is this so? It cannot be that other hierarchs are loath to participate in public marches. How can we Orthodox not show solidarity on an issue that we all agree on? Indeed, the lack of priests from other than OCA seems to indicate that their bishops have indicated that their participation is not desired. I really hope that I am wrong about this."

Your claim regarding the OCA's exclusivity is not true. I posted this link here yesterday. http://www.acrod.org/news/releases/2011-march In prior years when his health was robust, Metropolitan Nicholas was a regular fixture at the March with the prior Metropolitans of the OCA. Many busloads of faithful from ACROD have attended this event annually.

I came across this post on another forum and I have taken the liberty of quoting it here as it bears witness to Orthodox participation. It refers to this week's west coast March for Life and it is from a Byzantine Catholic participant"


"It was a wonderful day! The estimate is 40K people. We had 35K last year in the rain. Yesterday was picture perfect weather. In spite of ever larger numbers of participants the coverage in the NoCa papers appears to be even less than in past years, which really seemed impossible since the coverage had already been nearly nonexistent. What I've found in the main press was the same few paragraphs pulled off the same AP feed.

The Sacramento Bee did post a short video on their web site which looks like it came from a Smart Phone perhaps part of this movement begun by the Facebook group "I'm Bringing My Smart Phone to the March For Life!" set up by those who are tired of the failure of the press to cover with an integrity the March for Life, and the Walk for Life.

I was delighted to meet babochka, her family, and others from St. Philip Byzantine Catholic Church including their priest and his family. My daughter and I separated early on from the couple of other Our Lady of Fatima Byzantine Catholic Church folks who were with Fr. Vito and his monastery group, because I wanted to wait for the rest of the St. Philip group.

Thankfully Orthodox clergy know how to dress and grow their hair   Eventually my daughter and I got separated from St.Philip's group and then I saw in the distance cassocks and long hair. Indeed it was Fr. Silas, from St Timothy Orthodox Church, Fairfield, with Fr. Aris and Presbytera of Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church, SF and Fr.Dn Brendan (I believe) from Holy Trinity Cathedral SF. I chatted briefly with one of their group who was from a small parish in Angel's Camp, which I believe was St. Gabriel Orthodox Church so they had a wide spread group! Another OLF parishioner joined up while I was still with the Orthodox group for part of the last mile.

Hopefully having managed to connect this year during the Walk, thanks to the Holy Spirit, we can maybe actually plan a combined Orthodox EC group next year..."

Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,944


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #59 on: January 27, 2011, 01:09:15 PM »

Once again, the dead horse has been trotted out for its annual beating. Here is the clear and unambiguous teaching of the Orthodox Church as succinctly stated by Fr. Stanley Harakas. http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101

The Orthodox Church has a definite, formal and intended attitude toward abortion. It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brands abortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce to abortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by which abortion, with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life.

This is not Catholic teaching.  I know you are not suggesting that it is.  However when Catholics point this out to Orthodox believers, somehow we are being insulting.

Orthodoxy formally makes exceptions for something which the Catholic Church makes no exceptions and does so in such a way that it leaves the message with the Orthodox believer that it is all right to choose to kill the in-utero child, under certain circumstances.

What the Catholic Church does say is that in those EXTREMELY RARE MEDICAL CIRCUMSTANCES where it is A CLEAR CHOICE....most of the time the choice is not at all that clear....if the effort to save the mother results in the death of the child then there has been no sin...BUT IF...the choice is made to kill the child to save the mother then there has been a murder committed.   Meaning that you just cannot go in and abort the baby and hope to save the mother once the baby is out of the way, which is what happens in fact in most of those instances.

What we must do is try everything humanly possible to save both.

So again, when we talk about joining together to present moral teaching in the world...It cannot be done because we do not teach the same thing.


On the contrary, dear ElijahMaria; you do not have to be lawyers or to resort to lawyer like verbiage to agree on this issue. We only need to agree on the principles here and we do agree so substantially that the difference that you cite is really meaningless. (OK, I'll give you that your verbiage is more precise but our principles are the same). So, the problem is again, application. Both of our churches have seen many laypersons in elected positions vote for pro-abortion legislation with nary a public rebuke from their spiritual fathers. Is this not a true scandal? Both of our churches are rife with clergy who are afraid to teach the Church's anti-abortion teachings because they fear they will alienate some (many?) of their parishioners. Is this not a tragic shortcoming? Against these, why are we quibbling about formulations of positions?

Talk about a timely article, from today's New York Times OpEd is a piece by Nicholas Kristoff regarding the dispute between a Latin Bishop and a regional Catholic hospital. I should note that Kristoff's father's family is Lemko so I am assuming that he has some familiarity with Eastern Christianity and its approach to difficult moral issues. I don't know that particulars of the case in question but I think that the piece is worth reading in the context of the ongoing discussion on this thread. I think that Kristoff is, in the end, espousing a position that is not acceptable to either Orthodox or Roman Catholics if taken to its logical extension, but I think that, if we take the hospital's position at face value, the Orthodox response to the particular, specific case MAY have been approached differently. In any event, it provides food for thought. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/27/opinion/27kristof.html?hp

"....The hospital’s offense? It had terminated a pregnancy to save the life of the mother. The hospital says the 27-year-old woman, a mother of four children, would almost certainly have died otherwise....

.....Bishop Olmsted initially excommunicated a nun, Sister Margaret McBride, who had been on the hospital’s ethics committee and had approved of the decision. That seems to have been a failed attempt to bully the hospital into submission, but it refused to cave and continues to employ Sister Margaret. Now the bishop, in effect, is excommunicating the entire hospital — all because it saved a woman’s life....

Catholic hospitals like St. Joseph’s that are evicted by the church continue to operate largely as before. The main consequence is that Mass can no longer be said in the hospital chapel. Thomas C. Fox, the editor of National Catholic Reporter, noted regretfully that a hospital with deep Catholic roots like St. Joseph’s now cannot celebrate Mass, while airport chapels can. Mr. Fox added: “Olmsted’s moral certitude is lifeless, leaving no place for compassionate Christianity.”

....To me, this battle illuminates two rival religious approaches, within the Catholic church and any spiritual tradition. One approach focuses upon dogma, sanctity, rules and the punishment of sinners. The other exalts compassion for the needy and mercy for sinners (emphasis mine...the next phrase is where Kristoff goes 'off the reservation' so to speak.) — and, perhaps, above all, inclusiveness....

....With the Vatican seemingly as deaf and remote as it was in 1517, some Catholics at the grass roots are pushing to recover their faith. Jamie L. Manson, the same columnist for National Catholic Reporter who proclaimed that Jesus had been “evicted,” also argued powerfully that many ordinary Catholics have reached a breaking point and that St. Joseph’s heralds a new vision of Catholicism: “Though they will be denied the opportunity to celebrate the Eucharist, the Eucharist will rise out of St. Joseph’s every time the sick are healed, the frightened are comforted, the lonely are visited, the weak are fed, and vigil is kept over the dying.” "
« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 01:11:00 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #60 on: January 27, 2011, 03:22:47 PM »

The poor, dead horse is looking rather mangy. All the beatings it has received have caused split hairs.

Well why don't you write and tell Father Gregory and Father Hans Jacobse who also must have thought the article had sufficient merit to have Father Gregory do a reprise of his first article.

You might want to mute the discussion though, eh?  

You fit right into what Father Gregory has said about Orthodox laity and clergy.

M.

I only skimmed the article.  I was looking for Church references.  I did not find any.  I only found talk about secular politicians.  Where there any Church statements approving abortion in the article?


Mary, my nose is seriously out of joint!   Angry

You created this thread FOR ME !!  You have even put my name in the Subject line!!    You gave me an article in the OP which you wanted me to consider.

Now that I have asked you questions about the article you are ignoring my questions 100% and refusing to interact with me.

What is the problem?  Why the discourtesy?

« Last Edit: January 27, 2011, 03:25:28 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #61 on: January 27, 2011, 03:32:07 PM »

Once again, the dead horse has been trotted out for its annual beating. Here is the clear and unambiguous teaching of the Orthodox Church as succinctly stated by Fr. Stanley Harakas. http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101

The Orthodox Church has a definite, formal and intended attitude toward abortion. It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brands abortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce to abortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by which abortion, with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life.

This is not Catholic teaching.  I know you are not suggesting that it is.  However when Catholics point this out to Orthodox believers, somehow we are being insulting.

Orthodoxy formally makes exceptions for something which the Catholic Church makes no exceptions and does so in such a way that it leaves the message with the Orthodox believer that it is all right to choose to kill the in-utero child, under certain circumstances.

What the Catholic Church does say is that in those EXTREMELY RARE MEDICAL CIRCUMSTANCES where it is A CLEAR CHOICE....most of the time the choice is not at all that clear....if the effort to save the mother results in the death of the child then there has been no sin...BUT IF...the choice is made to kill the child to save the mother then there has been a murder committed.   Meaning that you just cannot go in and abort the baby and hope to save the mother once the baby is out of the way, which is what happens in fact in most of those instances.

What we must do is try everything humanly possible to save both.

So again, when we talk about joining together to present moral teaching in the world...It cannot be done because we do not teach the same thing.


On the contrary, dear ElijahMaria; you do not have to be lawyers or to resort to lawyer like verbiage to agree on this issue. We only need to agree on the principles here and we do agree so substantially that the difference that you cite is really meaningless. (OK, I'll give you that your verbiage is more precise but our principles are the same). So, the problem is again, application. Both of our churches have seen many laypersons in elected positions vote for pro-abortion legislation with nary a public rebuke from their spiritual fathers. Is this not a true scandal? Both of our churches are rife with clergy who are afraid to teach the Church's anti-abortion teachings because they fear they will alienate some (many?) of their parishioners. Is this not a tragic shortcoming? Against these, why are we quibbling about formulations of positions?

Talk about a timely article, from today's New York Times OpEd is a piece by Nicholas Kristoff regarding the dispute between a Latin Bishop and a regional Catholic hospital. I should note that Kristoff's father's family is Lemko so I am assuming that he has some familiarity with Eastern Christianity and its approach to difficult moral issues. I don't know that particulars of the case in question but I think that the piece is worth reading in the context of the ongoing discussion on this thread. I think that Kristoff is, in the end, espousing a position that is not acceptable to either Orthodox or Roman Catholics if taken to its logical extension, but I think that, if we take the hospital's position at face value, the Orthodox response to the particular, specific case MAY have been approached differently. In any event, it provides food for thought. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/27/opinion/27kristof.html?hp

"....The hospital’s offense? It had terminated a pregnancy to save the life of the mother. The hospital says the 27-year-old woman, a mother of four children, would almost certainly have died otherwise....

.....Bishop Olmsted initially excommunicated a nun, Sister Margaret McBride, who had been on the hospital’s ethics committee and had approved of the decision. That seems to have been a failed attempt to bully the hospital into submission, but it refused to cave and continues to employ Sister Margaret. Now the bishop, in effect, is excommunicating the entire hospital — all because it saved a woman’s life....

Catholic hospitals like St. Joseph’s that are evicted by the church continue to operate largely as before. The main consequence is that Mass can no longer be said in the hospital chapel. Thomas C. Fox, the editor of National Catholic Reporter, noted regretfully that a hospital with deep Catholic roots like St. Joseph’s now cannot celebrate Mass, while airport chapels can. Mr. Fox added: “Olmsted’s moral certitude is lifeless, leaving no place for compassionate Christianity.”

....To me, this battle illuminates two rival religious approaches, within the Catholic church and any spiritual tradition. One approach focuses upon dogma, sanctity, rules and the punishment of sinners. The other exalts compassion for the needy and mercy for sinners (emphasis mine...the next phrase is where Kristoff goes 'off the reservation' so to speak.) — and, perhaps, above all, inclusiveness....

....With the Vatican seemingly as deaf and remote as it was in 1517, some Catholics at the grass roots are pushing to recover their faith. Jamie L. Manson, the same columnist for National Catholic Reporter who proclaimed that Jesus had been “evicted,” also argued powerfully that many ordinary Catholics have reached a breaking point and that St. Joseph’s heralds a new vision of Catholicism: “Though they will be denied the opportunity to celebrate the Eucharist, the Eucharist will rise out of St. Joseph’s every time the sick are healed, the frightened are comforted, the lonely are visited, the weak are fed, and vigil is kept over the dying.” "


I think that the line "almost certain to have died otherwise..." should be considered, kindly, as hyperbole.   My daughter bore five boys to term with both pregnancy induced hyperglycemia and hypertension.  The risks to her were high but she found a good crisis pregnancy gyn and carried on with each pregnancy as they came to her. 

It is never clear in these circumstances that the mother will indeed die from the hypertension before she brings the pregnancy to term...and because it is not ever truly clear...then this kind of hypertension is not grounds for aborting...particularly a late term abortion as this one clearly would have been.

I think it is important that Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church present the same message to the world concerning abortion precisely because of these kinds of situations presented in this wildly inflammatory article.

Mary
Logged

LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,618



WWW
« Reply #62 on: January 27, 2011, 04:10:38 PM »


Thank God your daughter and grandkids are all fine.

However, does anyone on this forum know exactly the health situation of the woman in the article?  Maybe she was suffering from many various conditions at once.  I didn't read anywhere an entire medical history of her.  So, who's to say?

Furthermore, I am finding this whole thread to be offensive as it seems to focus on one forum member.  Why?  Why are we picking on Fr. Ambrose in particular?  Why not just have a generic thread concerning abortion, if that is the true goal here?  Or is the goal to raise Fr. Ambrose's blood pressure?

As for the Orthodox stance on abortion, why is there even a question?  Orthodoxy has always taught that killing is sinful, in any form.  Nowhere has the Orthodox Church given the green light to abort the unborn.

However, the Church also has this thing called economia.  It realizes that each situation is different, and requires the personal "touch".  Nothing is as cut and dry as you seem to wish it were.

Men are not allowed to wear hats in church.  However, via economia the other day, a man came into the church wearing a hat.  While most people jumped to judge him, and even reached to pull off his hat, because apparently they thought his arms couldn't reach it themselves....it turned out that the man had surgery, and his skull was deformed.  He was hiding his deformity.

What if you are falling off a cliff and grab on to a branch to hold on.  Someone grabs your hand, as they too are falling.  You are holding yourself with one hand, and the other person with the other.  You can't hold on much longer, and your hand begins to lose it's grip on that branch, which is also starting to break under the weight of two people.  To save yourself you let the person go, and grab on to the branch with both hands and get pulled to safety.  Are you condemned for killing the other person?  While blessed is he who gives his life for another, is he who doesn't condemned?

The Church says NO abortion.  If the woman aborts her child it is still none of our business...and we are not to judge her.  Help her before she aborts, give her options...but, who are you to stand in judgment of anyone, for any reason?   Don't support an error, but, work to fix it.

Seriously. 

How often do we fall short of Church dogma?  How often do we fast exactly as we should, pray as often as we should, give as much as we should, be kind and loving, and forgiving as much as we should?

The Church teaches one thing...but, we as humans fall short.  It's not the Church that falls short, it's her adherents.  So...everyone stop picking on Orthodoxy. 

Now, I suggest that we all look at our own "perfect" selves before we continue throwing mud at everyone around us.

Take a step back and act like Christians.

Honestly.

Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,985



« Reply #63 on: January 27, 2011, 04:28:54 PM »

I just posted the following on the "Christian News" and would appreciate your input in the context of Orthodox-Catholic diologue, particularly regarding the operationalization of our respective teachings regarding abortion, beyond the confessional.

"I do not have any other "official" accounts but the one from OCA (http://www.oca.org/news/2392). It seems that the participants in this year's march included only OCA hierarchs and priests:

"Joining Metropolitan Jonah in leading the Orthodox Christian marchers were His Grace, Bishop Tikhon of Philadelphia and Eastern Pennsylvania; His Grace, Bishop Michael of New York and New Jersey; His Grace, Bishop Melchisedek of Pittsburgh and Western Pennsylvania; Archimandrite Matthias, Bishop-Elect of Chicago and the Midwest; faculty and students from Saint Tikhon's Seminary, South Canaan, PA and Saint Vladimir's Seminary, Crestwood, NY; and Orthodox Christian clergy and faithful from the east coast and beyond."

My question, in light of a separate discussion on our teachings about abortion, is why is this so? It cannot be that other hierarchs are loath to participate in public marches. How can we Orthodox not show solidarity on an issue that we all agree on? Indeed, the lack of priests from other than OCA seems to indicate that their bishops have indicated that their participation is not desired. I really hope that I am wrong about this."

Your claim regarding the OCA's exclusivity is not true. I posted this link here yesterday. http://www.acrod.org/news/releases/2011-march In prior years when his health was robust, Metropolitan Nicholas was a regular fixture at the March with the prior Metropolitans of the OCA. Many busloads of faithful from ACROD have attended this event annually.

And, as I did on the other thread, I praise God and ACROD. Any others from other jurisdictions, beside Father Aris (GOA) in Sacramento?
Logged

Michal: "SC, love you in this thread."
theistgal
Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic gadfly
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Follower of Jesus Christ
Jurisdiction: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 2,082


don't even go there!


« Reply #64 on: January 27, 2011, 06:12:03 PM »

I think the real problem here is judging each other's Church too harshly based on where they stand on those rare, borderline, "hard cases" where there really is a high risk to the mother.  Thanks be to God (and science!) that those cases are now the exception and not the rule!

However, it seems to me that where both Churches DO agree that the run-of-the-mill abortion performed most often today - that of a healthy fetus inside a healthy mother who simply does not want to have a child - is the real scandal and the real issue.  We may continue to disagree about the more complicated cases, but those are not the ones that constitute MOST of the abortions perdormed in the U.S. today.
Logged

"Sometimes, you just gotta say, 'OK, I still have nine live, two-headed animals' and move on.'' (owner of Coney Island freak show, upon learning he'd been outbid on a 5-legged puppy)
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #65 on: January 27, 2011, 06:34:54 PM »

I think the real problem here is judging each other's Church too harshly based on where they stand on those rare, borderline, "hard cases" where there really is a high risk to the mother.  Thanks be to God (and science!) that those cases are now the exception and not the rule!

However, it seems to me that where both Churches DO agree that the run-of-the-mill abortion performed most often today - that of a healthy fetus inside a healthy mother who simply does not want to have a child - is the real scandal and the real issue.  We may continue to disagree about the more complicated cases, but those are not the ones that constitute MOST of the abortions perdormed in the U.S. today.

It is precisely in how we approach and recommend on the hard cases that we demonstrate our the absoluteness of the evil of abortion.  If the line is not drawn hard, it will never be drawn at all. 

Abortion is evil no matter what or who or why...or when.

It must be expressed in those most steadfast terms or the loopholes become floodgates.

If Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church do not stand precisely together on the hard cases, then the easy road will win.  It always does in this fallen world.

M.
Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #66 on: January 27, 2011, 06:35:13 PM »

The question Liz is never the sinfulness of the woman involved in any abortion.  The question here in particular is the article that challenges, first Orthodox laity and clergy, and then the rest of us by extension to take another look at who we are and how we behave and think...just as you are doing here.

I have addressed this thread to Father Ambrose from New Zealand simply because he seems to delight in naming me as an avowed enemy of Orthodoxy in that I say that Orthodox clergy and bishops have not been entirely clear in their teaching on abortion.  I believe this article supports my observations.

But it is, apparently, better to shoot the messenger.  Well I am shot.  Who will Father Ambrose shoot next?   Father Gregory?....I don't think so.  No.  He will continue to rail against me or any other Catholic who offers the same message.  Brilliant.
 
M.


Thank God your daughter and grandkids are all fine.

However, does anyone on this forum know exactly the health situation of the woman in the article?  Maybe she was suffering from many various conditions at once.  I didn't read anywhere an entire medical history of her.  So, who's to say?

Furthermore, I am finding this whole thread to be offensive as it seems to focus on one forum member.  Why?  Why are we picking on Fr. Ambrose in particular?  Why not just have a generic thread concerning abortion, if that is the true goal here?  Or is the goal to raise Fr. Ambrose's blood pressure?

As for the Orthodox stance on abortion, why is there even a question?  Orthodoxy has always taught that killing is sinful, in any form.  Nowhere has the Orthodox Church given the green light to abort the unborn.

However, the Church also has this thing called economia.  It realizes that each situation is different, and requires the personal "touch".  Nothing is as cut and dry as you seem to wish it were.

Men are not allowed to wear hats in church.  However, via economia the other day, a man came into the church wearing a hat.  While most people jumped to judge him, and even reached to pull off his hat, because apparently they thought his arms couldn't reach it themselves....it turned out that the man had surgery, and his skull was deformed.  He was hiding his deformity.

What if you are falling off a cliff and grab on to a branch to hold on.  Someone grabs your hand, as they too are falling.  You are holding yourself with one hand, and the other person with the other.  You can't hold on much longer, and your hand begins to lose it's grip on that branch, which is also starting to break under the weight of two people.  To save yourself you let the person go, and grab on to the branch with both hands and get pulled to safety.  Are you condemned for killing the other person?  While blessed is he who gives his life for another, is he who doesn't condemned?

The Church says NO abortion.  If the woman aborts her child it is still none of our business...and we are not to judge her.  Help her before she aborts, give her options...but, who are you to stand in judgment of anyone, for any reason?   Don't support an error, but, work to fix it.

Seriously. 

How often do we fall short of Church dogma?  How often do we fast exactly as we should, pray as often as we should, give as much as we should, be kind and loving, and forgiving as much as we should?

The Church teaches one thing...but, we as humans fall short.  It's not the Church that falls short, it's her adherents.  So...everyone stop picking on Orthodoxy. 

Now, I suggest that we all look at our own "perfect" selves before we continue throwing mud at everyone around us.

Take a step back and act like Christians.

Honestly.


Logged

LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,618



WWW
« Reply #67 on: January 28, 2011, 05:10:26 PM »

The question Liz is never the sinfulness of the woman involved in any abortion.  The question here in particular is the article that challenges, first Orthodox laity and clergy, and then the rest of us by extension to take another look at who we are and how we behave and think...just as you are doing here.

I have addressed this thread to Father Ambrose from New Zealand simply because he seems to delight in naming me as an avowed enemy of Orthodoxy in that I say that Orthodox clergy and bishops have not been entirely clear in their teaching on abortion.  I believe this article supports my observations.

But it is, apparently, better to shoot the messenger.  Well I am shot.  Who will Father Ambrose shoot next?   Father Gregory?....I don't think so.  No.  He will continue to rail against me or any other Catholic who offers the same message.  Brilliant.
 
M.


From the article in question:  "According to the PEW survey, the majority of Orthodox laity agree that abortion and gay marriage should be legal. "
______________________________________________________________________

I would like to know which Orthodox laity were polled.  I have yet to meet an Orthodox Christian, with even a rudimentary understanding of their Faith, to hold the opinion that either of these two acts should be legalized. 

Furthermore, I just don't understand how you can state that Orthodox clergy and bishops are not entirely clear in their teachings on abortion.  I've have yet to come across a single priest who has condoned abortion as a norm.

Once again, the Church teaches one thing, yet her adherents will do what they will.  The shepherds cannot always control what their flocks do.  As parents, you teach your kids right from wrong, then you let them go free into the world, hoping and praying that they do right.  When they fall short of the mark and do wrong, even though you do not support their wrong-doing, you still love them, and once again embrace them and try to pick them up and put them back on the correct path.

Any sin may be forgiven, and it is the Church's stance to be understanding, however, do not mistake forgiveness with tolerance and permissibility. 

The Church (and her clergy/hierarchs) say NO to abortion and gay marriage.  They always have and they always will.

Mary, I truly am sorry that you feel "attacked".  This forum is open to discussion and hopefully folks can discuss without personally attacking each other.


Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #68 on: January 28, 2011, 06:48:18 PM »

The question Liz is never the sinfulness of the woman involved in any abortion.  The question here in particular is the article that challenges, first Orthodox laity and clergy, and then the rest of us by extension to take another look at who we are and how we behave and think...just as you are doing here.

I have addressed this thread to Father Ambrose from New Zealand simply because he seems to delight in naming me as an avowed enemy of Orthodoxy in that I say that Orthodox clergy and bishops have not been entirely clear in their teaching on abortion.  I believe this article supports my observations.

But it is, apparently, better to shoot the messenger.  Well I am shot.  Who will Father Ambrose shoot next?   Father Gregory?....I don't think so.  No.  He will continue to rail against me or any other Catholic who offers the same message.  Brilliant.
 
M.


From the article in question:  "According to the PEW survey, the majority of Orthodox laity agree that abortion and gay marriage should be legal. "
______________________________________________________________________

I would like to know which Orthodox laity were polled.  I have yet to meet an Orthodox Christian, with even a rudimentary understanding of their Faith, to hold the opinion that either of these two acts should be legalized. 

Furthermore, I just don't understand how you can state that Orthodox clergy and bishops are not entirely clear in their teachings on abortion.  I've have yet to come across a single priest who has condoned abortion as a norm.

Once again, the Church teaches one thing, yet her adherents will do what they will.  The shepherds cannot always control what their flocks do.  As parents, you teach your kids right from wrong, then you let them go free into the world, hoping and praying that they do right.  When they fall short of the mark and do wrong, even though you do not support their wrong-doing, you still love them, and once again embrace them and try to pick them up and put them back on the correct path.

Any sin may be forgiven, and it is the Church's stance to be understanding, however, do not mistake forgiveness with tolerance and permissibility. 

The Church (and her clergy/hierarchs) say NO to abortion and gay marriage.  They always have and they always will.

Mary, I truly am sorry that you feel "attacked".  This forum is open to discussion and hopefully folks can discuss without personally attacking each other.

Sorry you confused a rhetorical device with my emotional or psychological state...Seems to me that one should not get too invested in these kinds of discussions..no? 

Figure of speech "shoot the messenger" rather than dealing with the message.

Your experiences are not quite the same as mine and clearly there is at least one Orthodox priest who also seems to think there's more of a problem than you are letting on here.

To my way of thinking, Orthodoxy has a bit more of a difficult time dealing with the subject because there is no recognizably universal statement that condemns abortion under any and all circumstances as there is in the Catholic Church. 

What individuals do or think is somewhat separate from whether or not there's a clear statement of right and wrong...eh?

I mean we don't throw out the Decalogue simply because there are sinners...right?

Mary
Logged

mike
Warned
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,522


« Reply #69 on: January 28, 2011, 06:50:34 PM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
Logged
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,611



« Reply #70 on: January 28, 2011, 06:57:19 PM »

The UOC Calendar put out every year states that abortion is a "grievous sin."

Maybe this can put it to rest:

http://www.aoiusa.org/2009/09/orthodox-church-supreme-court-brief-on-roe-v-wade/

Notice:

5. This brief is filed with the blessings of: The American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Diocese: His Grace, Bishop Nicholas; V. Rev. Frank P. Miloro, Dean of Christ the Savior Orthodox Theological Seminary; The Anthiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America: His Eminence, Most Rev. Metropolitan Philip; Rt. Rev. Antun, Auxiliary Bishop; V. Rev. Peter E. Gillquist, Chairman of the Council of Coordinators, Antiochian Evangelical Orthodox Mission, and member, Worship and Evangelization Committee, National Council of Churches; V. Rev. Jack N. Sparks, Dean of St. Athanasius College; The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North and South America: Rt. Rev. Maximos, Bishop of Pittsburgh; Rev. Dr. Stanley S. Harakas, Archbishop Iakovos Professor of Orthodox Theology and Christian Ethics, Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology; Rev. Dr. Theodore Stylianopoulos, Professor of New Testament and Orthodox Spirituality, Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology, and member of the Central Committee of the World Council of Churches; Rev. Fr. George A. Alexson, Secretary-Treasurer of the Greater Washington Orthodox Clergy Council, and Pastor, St. Katherine’s Greek Orthodox Church of Northern Virginia; The Orthodox Church in America: His Beatitude Theodosius, Archbishop of Washington, Metropolitan of All America and Canada; Rt. Rev. Peter, Bishop of New York and New Jersey; Rt. Rev. Dimitri, Bishop of Dallas and the South; Rt. Rev. Herman, Bishop of Philadelphia and Eastern Pennsylvania; Rt. Rev. Gregory, Bishop of Sitka and Alaska; Rt. Rev. Nathaniel, Bishop of Detroit and the Romanian Episcopate; Rt. Rev. Job, Bishop of Hartford and New England; Rt. Rev. Tikhon, Bishop of San Francisco; Rt. Rev. Mark, Acting Bishop of Chicago and the Midwest; V. Rev. Leonid Kishkovsky, Secretary of External and Ecumenical Affairs, and President-Elect of the National Council of Churches; V. Rev. John Meyendorff, Dean of St. Vladimir’s Orthodox Theological Seminary, and Professor of Church History and Patristics; V. Rev. Daniel K. Donlick, Dean of St. Tikhon’s Orthodox Theological Seminary; V. Rev. Joseph P. Kreta, Dean of St. Herman’s Orthodox Theological Seminary; V. Rev. Thomas Hopko, Associate Professor of Dogmatic Theology, St. Vladimir’s Orthodox Theological Seminary, and member, Faith and Order Commission of the World Council of Churches; V. Rev. John Kowalczyk, Adjunct Professor of Religious Education and the Christian Family, St. Tikhon’s Orthodox Theological Seminary, and Pro-Life Coordinator of the Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania; V. Rev. Vladimir Borichevsky, Professor of Moral and Pastoral Theology, St. Tikhon’s Orthodox Theological Seminary; Rev. Fr. Alexander F.C. Webster, Senior Research Associate, Ethics and Public Policy Center, Washington, D.C. (for identification only); Holy Transfiguration Orthodox Monastery, Elwood City, Pennsylvania; Holy Dormition Orthodox Monastery, Rives Eaton, Michigan; The Russian Orthodox Church in Exile: His Eminence, Most Rev. Vitaly, Metropolitan of New York and Eastern America, First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church in Exile; Most Rev. Anthony, Archbishop of Los Angeles and Southern California; Most Rev. Antony, Archbishop of San Francisco and Western America; Most Rev. Laurus, Archbishop of Syracuse and Holy Trinity Monastery, Rector of Holy Trinity Orthodox Seminary, and Abbot of Holy Trinity Orthodox Monastery, Jordanville, New York; Rt. Rev. Alypy, Bishop of Chicago, Detroit, and Midwest America; Rt. Rev. Hilarion, Bishop of Manhattan; Rt. Rev. Daniel, Bishop of Erie and Protector of the Old Rite; Rev. Fr. Alexey Young, Editor of ‘Orthodox America’; Rev. Fr. Gregory Williams, Editor of ‘Living Orthodoxy’; The Serbian Orthodox Church in the United States and Canada: His Grace, Bishop Christopher; The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of America and Canada: His Grace, Bishop Vsevolod.

In addition, this brief is endorsed by: Orthodox Christians for Life—John Protopapas, Co-Founder and Chairman; Rev. Fr. Edward Pehanich, Co-Founder and Spiritual Advisor, and Diocesean Representative for the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Diocese; Valerie Protopapas, Educational Director, and Sanctity of Life Director for the Diocese of New York and New Jersey (OCA); and V. Rev. Gordon T. Walker, liaison to the Antiochian Evangelical Orthodox Mission. This brief is also endorsed by: Dr. Lewis J. Patsavos, Professor of Canon Law, and Dr. John Chirban, Professor of Psychology and Counseling, Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology; Dr. John Erickson, Professor of Canon law and Church History, St. Vladimir’s Orthodox Theological Seminary; the Orthodox Christian Association of Medicine, Psychology, and Religion; the Orthodox Brotherhood of the United States; the National Association of Romanian Orthodox Women in America; and American Romanian Orthodox Youth.

Logged
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #71 on: January 28, 2011, 07:38:58 PM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.
Logged
mike
Warned
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,522


« Reply #72 on: January 28, 2011, 07:56:24 PM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.

So you seem to have problems with reading in English. The 91st canon of Council in Trullo was quoted TWICE here and that Council canons were reconfirmed by the VII Ecumenical Council. What more do you need?

Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,135



« Reply #73 on: January 28, 2011, 08:16:20 PM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.
LOL. Even your ecclesiatical organization got along without a magisterium for nearly a millenium before the Vatican created it in the 19th century.
Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #74 on: January 28, 2011, 08:21:42 PM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.
LOL. Even your ecclesiatical organization got along without a magisterium for nearly a millenium before the Vatican created it in the 19th century.
The teaching authority of the Church was not created in the 19th century. It was established in 33 A.D.
Logged
ialmisry
There's nothing John of Damascus can't answer
Moderated
Hypatos
*****************
Offline Offline

Faith: جامعي Arab confesssing the Orthodox Faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: Antioch (for now), but my heart belongs to Alexandria
Posts: 38,135



« Reply #75 on: January 28, 2011, 09:06:03 PM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.

LOL. Even your ecclesiatical organization got along without a magisterium for nearly a millenium before the Vatican created it in the 19th century.
The teaching authority of the Church was not created in the 19th century. It was established in 33 A.D.
Produce any discussion or description of the instition of your "magisterium" before 1846.


Btw, each Orthodox Church has official statements on this issue, statements on their official websites, etc.  Anyone find anything in support of abortion anywhere there?
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 09:07:46 PM by ialmisry » Logged

Question a friend, perhaps he did not do it; but if he did anything so that he may do it no more.
A hasty quarrel kindles fire,
and urgent strife sheds blood.
If you blow on a spark, it will glow;
if you spit on it, it will be put out;
                           and both come out of your mouth
Paisius
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Wherever the wind blows......
Posts: 1,235


Scheherazade


« Reply #76 on: January 28, 2011, 09:31:55 PM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.


There is a clear teaching on the subject. Abortion is murder. How you guys haven't figured that out yet is beyond me.  Huh

Oh and by the way, that same survey shows that 75% of Catholics believe abortion should be legal in at least some cases. So how's that "magisterium" working out for ya?  Wink
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 09:33:55 PM by Paisius » Logged
podkarpatska
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: ACROD
Posts: 8,944


Pokrov


WWW
« Reply #77 on: January 28, 2011, 09:41:21 PM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.

Utter nonsense. The teaching of the Orthodox Church is clear, unambiguous and universal on this issue.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 09:45:33 PM by podkarpatska » Logged
Father H
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian--God's One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church
Jurisdiction: UOCofUSA-Ecumenical Patriarchate
Posts: 2,611



« Reply #78 on: January 28, 2011, 09:54:47 PM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.
So you seem to have problems with reading in English. The 91st canon of Council in Trullo was quoted TWICE here and that Council canons were reconfirmed by the VII Ecumenical Council. What more do you need?

Right.  Orthodox Canon law is unanimous on the subject.   For example, the Rudder states in its commentary on Apostolic Canon 66:

"Among willful murders are those committed by those who give drugs to pregnant women in order to kill the embryos; and likewise those who willfully take such drugs as is decreed by the Sixth Council in its 91st canon and by the Council of Ancyra in its 21st canon and by St. Basil according to his 2nd and 8th canons. But more charitably they are censured and penanced not for life but for a term of ten years by both this same canon 21 of the Council of Ancyra and canon 2 of St. Basil."
Logged
Paisius
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Wherever the wind blows......
Posts: 1,235


Scheherazade


« Reply #79 on: January 28, 2011, 09:55:35 PM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.

Utter nonsense. The teaching of the Orthodox Church is clear, unambiguous and universal on this issue.


Link

Link

Link

Link


Statements from four jurisdiction here in the U.S; Goarch, OCA, Antiochian and ACROD. I'm not that smart and it took me five minutes to find these (these newfangled search engines are amazing).  Cool
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #80 on: January 29, 2011, 12:39:40 AM »

I have addressed this thread to Father Ambrose from New Zealand simply because he seems to delight in naming me as an avowed enemy of Orthodoxy in that I say that Orthodox clergy and bishops have not been entirely clear in their teaching on abortion.  I believe this article supports my observations.


Such posturing!  Angry  Apparently this thread is NOT for Father Ambrose but simply a lowdown polemical attack by Mary.  Angry

Father Ambrose read the article which Mary wanted him to (in the OP.)

He had a question for Mary (message 60) which so far she hasn't had the decency to reply to.

Pshaw!  This is just a polemical showcase created by Mary to, once again, have a bash at Orthodoxy.
Logged
elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #81 on: January 29, 2011, 05:08:31 AM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.
LOL. Even your ecclesiatical organization got along without a magisterium for nearly a millenium before the Vatican created it in the 19th century.
The teaching authority of the Church was not created in the 19th century. It was established in 33 A.D.

Wyatt....

This stuff that Isa is "teaching" isn't really Orthodox at all, nor is it original.  It's protestant and sectarian in origin...

Here's a good example of it all under one roof:

http://www.mgrfoundation.org/PapDoc-IntroP.html
Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #82 on: January 29, 2011, 05:08:31 AM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.

Utter nonsense. The teaching of the Orthodox Church is clear, unambiguous and universal on this issue.

Serious question:  To keep this in line with the original post, are you taking issue with Father Gregory's article, or are you making a simple assertion here?
Logged

elijahmaria
Taxiarches
**********
Offline Offline

Faith: Byzantine Catholic
Posts: 6,473



WWW
« Reply #83 on: January 29, 2011, 05:08:31 AM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.

Utter nonsense. The teaching of the Orthodox Church is clear, unambiguous and universal on this issue.


Link

Link

Link

Link


Statements from four jurisdiction here in the U.S; Goarch, OCA, Antiochian and ACROD. I'm not that smart and it took me five minutes to find these (these newfangled search engines are amazing).  Cool

With respect to one of your LINKs, Father Stanley is one of the FIRST to make the choice to abort contingent upon circumstance.  His teachings are right in line with those un-retracted comments on the part of the Ecumenical Patriarch.  That is made very clear in his book on moral theology.

The ACROD position against abortion is the strongest as far as I am concerned and the one closest to the position taught by the Catholic Church.

The others in that LINK list could go either way...be as uncompromising as ACROD or as relativist as the Greek Orthodox Church.

M.
Logged

Wyatt
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Catholic
Posts: 2,395


« Reply #84 on: January 29, 2011, 05:09:46 AM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.

LOL. Even your ecclesiatical organization got along without a magisterium for nearly a millenium before the Vatican created it in the 19th century.
The teaching authority of the Church was not created in the 19th century. It was established in 33 A.D.
Produce any discussion or description of the instition of your "magisterium" before 1846.


Btw, each Orthodox Church has official statements on this issue, statements on their official websites, etc.  Anyone find anything in support of abortion anywhere there?
Proves nothing. There was a time when the word Trinity did not exist, but the truth behind the word always did.
Logged
mike
Warned
Stratopedarches
**************
Offline Offline

Posts: 21,522


« Reply #85 on: January 29, 2011, 05:14:36 AM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.

Utter nonsense. The teaching of the Orthodox Church is clear, unambiguous and universal on this issue.

Serious question:  To keep this in line with the original post, are you taking issue with Father Gregory's article, or are you making a simple assertion here?

We are answering your question: DP the Orthodox Church has an official teaching on abortion? The answer has nothing in common with that text.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #86 on: January 29, 2011, 05:26:37 AM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.

Utter nonsense. The teaching of the Orthodox Church is clear, unambiguous and universal on this issue.

Serious question:  To keep this in line with the original post, are you taking issue with Father Gregory's article, or are you making a simple assertion here?

Is it not clear enough in the article that there is not one citation from the Orthodox Church, patriarch, bishop, priest, monk or nun, in support of abortion.
Logged
Irish Hermit
Kibernetski Kaludjer
Warned
Merarches
***********
Offline Offline

Posts: 10,991


Holy Father Patrick, pray for us


« Reply #87 on: January 29, 2011, 05:35:55 AM »


-With respect to one of your LINKs, Father Stanley is one of the FIRST to make the choice to abort contingent upon circumstance.  His teachings are right in line with those un-retracted comments on the part of the Ecumenical Patriarch.  That is made very clear in his book on moral theology.



Please expose your sources.  Is this more gossip from your anonymous circle of Orthodox intellectuals?

Here is what Fr Stanley Harakas says

http://orthodoxcounselor.com/ortho_view_child_abuse_Harakas.htm

Abortion and Exposure
"With this background, it becomes evident why very early in its history the Church sought to protect children from abuses of all kinds. Many of those early concerns are still pertinent today, and unfortunately, some new concerns have been added. The war against the child begins with abortion. What the Apologist Aristides said in the 2nd Century continues to be true today: "it is not permitted to destroy the fetus while it is still in the womb. To prevent birth is to be beforehand with murder; and it makes no difference whether one kills a life already born, or suppresses it at birth. He is already a man who is about to be one; and every fruit already lives in its seed." (Apology IX, 6) Orthodox Christians will oppose abortion in principle and practice and will struggle to change the immoral legalization of abortion, as a legalization of murder."
Logged
LizaSymonenko
Слава Ісусу Христу!!! Glory to Jesus Christ!!!
Global Moderator
Toumarches
******
Offline Offline

Faith: God's Holy Catholic and Apostolic Orthodox Church
Jurisdiction: Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the U.S.A.
Posts: 13,618



WWW
« Reply #88 on: January 29, 2011, 10:14:50 AM »

Serious question:  To keep this in line with the original post, are you taking issue with Father Gregory's article, or are you making a simple assertion here?

Cool!  Another dead horse to beat!

Mary, it seems to me (and honestly, no offense intended) that you are simply looking for a "fight".  It has been stated, and repeated that the article itself has not mentioned any Orthodox sources for their information.  Who was interviewed?  Who was polled?

Secondly, it has been stated again and again, and sources have been provided to support the statement that the Orthodox Church does not support either abortion or homosexuality.

I am thinking you are simply not willing to concede that your initial post and opinion of Orthodoxy is marred.

You seem to willfully ignore all the information that has been provided and repeat your erred judgmental statements concerning the True Church of Christ.

There is no point for any further discussion, because this thread has morphed into a place for RC's to vent their dislike of Orthodoxy and fuel their vain attempts to tarnish it.

It won't work.


« Last Edit: January 29, 2011, 10:18:23 AM by LizaSymonenko » Logged

Conquer evil men by your gentle kindness, and make zealous men wonder at your goodness. Put the lover of legality to shame by your compassion. With the afflicted be afflicted in mind. Love all men, but keep distant from all men.
—St. Isaac of Syria
FormerReformer
Convertodox of the convertodox
Site Supporter
Archon
*****
Online Online

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: I'll take (e) for "all of the above"
Posts: 2,444



WWW
« Reply #89 on: January 29, 2011, 10:35:04 AM »

Seriously, what does the article say?  That a majority of Orthodox Christians in America support abortion despite the clear teachings of the Church.  If the Orthodox Church didn't teach quite clearly that abortion was wrong there would be no reason for the article at all.  And I must say that the crowing Roman Catholic triumphalism on this thread is really out of place, when a majority of Roman Catholics in America also support the same thing, despite very clear pronouncements coming from the Pope.  This isn't a question of magesterium versus collegiality, it's a question of fallen and rebellious human beings rejecting what the Church has to say in support of their own "wisdom".  Houses need to be cleaned, surely, but forgive us if we don't invite you in to run the maid service when your own house has been declared a toxic dumping site.
Logged

"Funny," said Lancelot, "how the people who can't pray say that prayers are not answered, however much the people who can pray say they are."  TH White

Oh, no: I've succumbed to Hyperdoxy!
Tags: orthodoxy abortion cheval mort 
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 »  All   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.219 seconds with 72 queries.