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Author Topic: Orthodoxy and Abortion: Particularly for Father Ambrose, NZ  (Read 10617 times) Average Rating: 0
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elijahmaria
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« on: January 26, 2011, 01:18:03 PM »

This is for you Father Ambrose.  We can haul this out each time you get on your hobby horse about the bad Catholic woman who suggests that there's a problem in Orthodoxy.  Now you don't need me to suggest it. 

Fact of the matter is however that this is an excellent and insightful piece of writing from a very courageous Orthodox priest.  I hope there are Catholic priests who see it and put it to work in their pastoral lives.

http://www.aoiusa.org/2010/04/barbarians-among-us/

The Rejection of Tradition

On a post on my blog Koinoia (“An Editorial: Orthodoxy & the Public Square“), I wrote that whether or not I like Frank Schaeffer’s politics or his moral theology, or whether or not his support of abortion and gay rights are compatible with the tradition of the Church, the reality is that he is well within the mainstream of current Orthodox opinion in America. According to the PEW survey, the majority of Orthodox laity agree that abortion and gay marriage should be legal.  It may surprise you, then, that the problem isn’t Schaeffer – it’s us; specifically, it’s the clergy.  For reasons that are not entirely clear to me, we clergy are not effectively communicating the moral tradition of the Church to the laity.  Or, if we are, the laity aren’t listening –- which would imply that the clergy are willing to tolerate the laity ignoring the Gospel.

We see the same prevalence of pro-choice, pro-gay marriage positions among Orthodox politicians.  This kind of a consistent pattern of belief does not just happen.  As in the Catholic Church, we see in the Orthodox Church evidence of a significant pastoral failing.  This appears to be more than just a widespread lack of sound moral education for the faithful.  It appears to be an embrace of, or at least resignation to, the influence of secularism in our parishes.

This is a very serious problem.  This isn’t a debate about the practices of potentially faithful followers – as can be the case when addressing, say, Old Calendar or New Calendar, or the issue of women wearing headscarves, or whether priests should have beards and wear cassocks, or whether we have pews or not, or whether to use an organ to lead the choir.  This goes much deeper – to the heart of Christian discipleship.  It seems that we have simply lost sight of the beauty and power of Christian virtue; perhaps worse, it seems that we have given over leadership to moral barbarians.

I know that sounds like a harsh judgment, but what else can one call it?  A barbarian isn’t a bad person. A barbarian isn’t likely to love his wife and children any less than you or I.  He isn’t necessarily an atheist or polytheist.  In fact, many barbarians believed –- and believe — in Christ, though for the same reason that they believed in the old gods: to secure power for their people.

John Courtney Murray writes in his introduction to The Civilization of the Pluralist Society that “the barbarian need not appear in bearskins with a club in hand,”  Instead he:

    …may wear a Brooks Brothers suit and carry a ball-point pen with which to write his advertising copy. In fact, even beneath the academic gown there may lurk a child of the wilderness, untutored in the high tradition of civility, who goes busily and happily about his work, a domesticated and law-abiding man, engaged in the construction of a philosophy to put an end to all philosophy, and thus put an end to the possibility of a vital consensus and to civility itself....continued at link above
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« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2011, 01:29:36 PM »

Great article. Alot of his reasoning reminds me of that of John Paul II of blessed memory. I especially appreciated his description of "Moral Barbarians". It's important that we as Christians (Catholic, Protestant, and Eastern Orthodoxy) remember not to lose our saltiness.
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« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2011, 02:01:09 PM »

I don't know why there would be Orthodox thinking that abortion should be legal. And the only thing I can think about the gay marriage thing is that those people are probably thinking along the lines of "seperation of church and state" under the impression that legal recognition won't affect church life.

Our Hierarchs are most definitely against both. Here is something written by Met Jonah last year for the OCA. Also, there are a number of our clergy who signed the Manhattan Declaration which, while not any kind of official statement of any one hierarch or church and is not even limited to any particular Christian tradition, is still a sign of where our clergy and laity stand on these issues.

An Orthodox prayer taken from the OCA web site posted below Met Jonah's letter.
Quote
O Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son, Who are in the bosom of the Father, True God, source of life and immortality, Light of Light, Who came into the world to enlighten it: You were pleased to be conceived in the womb of the Virgin Mary for the salvation of our souls by the power of Your All-Holy Spirit. O Master, Who came that we might have life more abundantly, we ask You to enlighten the minds and hearts of those blinded to the truth that life begins at conception and that the unborn in the womb are already adorned with Your image and likeness; enable us to guard, cherish, and protect the lives of all those who are unable to care for themselves. For You are the Giver of Life, bringing each person from non-being into being, sealing each person with divine and infinite love. Be merciful, O Lord, to those who, through ignorance or willfulness, affront Your divine goodness and providence through the evil act of abortion. May they, and all of us, come to the life of Your Truth and glorify You, the Giver of Life, together with Your Father, and Your All-Holy and Life-giving Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen.

« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 02:22:03 PM by Melodist » Logged

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« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2011, 02:09:45 PM »

I don't know why there would be Orthodox thinking that abortion should be illegal. And the only thing I can think about the gay marriage thing is that those people are probably thinking along the lines of "seperation of church and state" under the impression that legal recognition won't affect church life.

Our Hierarchs are most definitely against both. Here is something written by Met Jonah last year for the OCA. Also, there are a number of our clergy who signed the Manhattan Declaration which, while not any kind of official statement of any one hierarch or church and is not even limited to any particular Christian tradition, is still a sign of where our clergy and laity stand on these issues.

An Orthodox prayer taken from the OCA web site posted below Met Jonah's letter.
Quote
O Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son, Who are in the bosom of the Father, True God, source of life and immortality, Light of Light, Who came into the world to enlighten it: You were pleased to be conceived in the womb of the Virgin Mary for the salvation of our souls by the power of Your All-Holy Spirit. O Master, Who came that we might have life more abundantly, we ask You to enlighten the minds and hearts of those blinded to the truth that life begins at conception and that the unborn in the womb are already adorned with Your image and likeness; enable us to guard, cherish, and protect the lives of all those who are unable to care for themselves. For You are the Giver of Life, bringing each person from non-being into being, sealing each person with divine and infinite love. Be merciful, O Lord, to those who, through ignorance or willfulness, affront Your divine goodness and providence through the evil act of abortion. May they, and all of us, come to the life of Your Truth and glorify You, the Giver of Life, together with Your Father, and Your All-Holy and Life-giving Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen.



First, I think you meant 'legal' rather than 'illegal'.

Second, I really don't understand the undercurrent in the tone of the OP and the constant back and forth between several posters across this forum that seems to be personal and goes on and on, distracting most of us from a more hearty and honest exchange of ideas.

For anyone to suggest that the Orthodox Church holds to the contrary is wrong and, as always given certain points of view, taking old statements out of context and understanding.

Not only is the OCA active in seeking to reduce and eliminate abortion in American, ACROD has been working with the OCA hierarchs for years on this. http://www.acrod.org/news/releases/2011-march You will find similar links and teachings on all Orthodox jurisdictional weblinks, including, but not limited to GOARCH and the UOC-USA.

Orthodox Christians throughout America are asked to prayerfully remember the victims of abortion, and to educate themselves about and support life-affirming, Church-related agencies and organizations, such as Zoe for Life,  Orthodox Christians for Life, and The Tree House
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« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2011, 02:11:36 PM »

To be fair, half of my family are Catholic, and they support Planned Parenthood, abortion, gay marriage and the like. And they think it's perfectly within their rights as Catholics. This is a problem everywhere, well expect in Evangelical Protestant circles from what I can tell. The mainline Protestants tend to be even worse than this.
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« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2011, 02:15:47 PM »

I don't know why there would be Orthodox thinking that abortion should be illegal.
You don't know why Christians should be agains legal murder? REEEEEEALLy?
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« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2011, 02:20:40 PM »

First, I think you meant 'legal' rather than 'illegal'.

That is what I meant. Sorry for the typo. I hope the rest of the post clarified what I really meant to say.

I did something similar to a different question my priest asked me during my conversion process of being received into the Church, I thought he asked the opposite of what he did and gave quite an embarrassing response to a yes/no question. I caught my mistake as soon as I said it and immediately corrected myself.  Embarrassed
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« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2011, 02:25:33 PM »

I don't know why there would be Orthodox thinking that abortion should be illegal.
You don't know why Christians should be agains legal murder? REEEEEEALLy?

That was clearly uncalled for and wrong. If you read Melodist's post you would have realized there was a TYPO.
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« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2011, 02:32:35 PM »

Are you saying Father Gregory's article is inaccurate?

The Ecumenical Patriarch, regardless of the fact that he does not speak for ALL the various Orthodox churches, does indeed speak publicly about the fact that abortion is acceptable under some circumstances.


I don't know why there would be Orthodox thinking that abortion should be illegal. And the only thing I can think about the gay marriage thing is that those people are probably thinking along the lines of "seperation of church and state" under the impression that legal recognition won't affect church life.

Our Hierarchs are most definitely against both. Here is something written by Met Jonah last year for the OCA. Also, there are a number of our clergy who signed the Manhattan Declaration which, while not any kind of official statement of any one hierarch or church and is not even limited to any particular Christian tradition, is still a sign of where our clergy and laity stand on these issues.

An Orthodox prayer taken from the OCA web site posted below Met Jonah's letter.
Quote
O Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son, Who are in the bosom of the Father, True God, source of life and immortality, Light of Light, Who came into the world to enlighten it: You were pleased to be conceived in the womb of the Virgin Mary for the salvation of our souls by the power of Your All-Holy Spirit. O Master, Who came that we might have life more abundantly, we ask You to enlighten the minds and hearts of those blinded to the truth that life begins at conception and that the unborn in the womb are already adorned with Your image and likeness; enable us to guard, cherish, and protect the lives of all those who are unable to care for themselves. For You are the Giver of Life, bringing each person from non-being into being, sealing each person with divine and infinite love. Be merciful, O Lord, to those who, through ignorance or willfulness, affront Your divine goodness and providence through the evil act of abortion. May they, and all of us, come to the life of Your Truth and glorify You, the Giver of Life, together with Your Father, and Your All-Holy and Life-giving Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen.


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« Reply #9 on: January 26, 2011, 02:37:17 PM »

I don't know why there would be Orthodox thinking that abortion should be illegal.
You don't know why Christians should be agains legal murder? REEEEEEALLy?

That was clearly uncalled for and wrong. If you read Melodist's post you would have realized there was a TYPO.
I just did. I am mistaken. Please forgive me Melodist.
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« Reply #10 on: January 26, 2011, 02:37:42 PM »

Are you saying Father Gregory's article is inaccurate?

The Ecumenical Patriarch, regardless of the fact that he does not speak for ALL the various Orthodox churches, does indeed speak publicly about the fact that abortion is acceptable under some circumstances.


I don't know why there would be Orthodox thinking that abortion should be illegal. And the only thing I can think about the gay marriage thing is that those people are probably thinking along the lines of "seperation of church and state" under the impression that legal recognition won't affect church life.

Our Hierarchs are most definitely against both. Here is something written by Met Jonah last year for the OCA. Also, there are a number of our clergy who signed the Manhattan Declaration which, while not any kind of official statement of any one hierarch or church and is not even limited to any particular Christian tradition, is still a sign of where our clergy and laity stand on these issues.

An Orthodox prayer taken from the OCA web site posted below Met Jonah's letter.
Quote
O Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son, Who are in the bosom of the Father, True God, source of life and immortality, Light of Light, Who came into the world to enlighten it: You were pleased to be conceived in the womb of the Virgin Mary for the salvation of our souls by the power of Your All-Holy Spirit. O Master, Who came that we might have life more abundantly, we ask You to enlighten the minds and hearts of those blinded to the truth that life begins at conception and that the unborn in the womb are already adorned with Your image and likeness; enable us to guard, cherish, and protect the lives of all those who are unable to care for themselves. For You are the Giver of Life, bringing each person from non-being into being, sealing each person with divine and infinite love. Be merciful, O Lord, to those who, through ignorance or willfulness, affront Your divine goodness and providence through the evil act of abortion. May they, and all of us, come to the life of Your Truth and glorify You, the Giver of Life, together with Your Father, and Your All-Holy and Life-giving Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen.


Mary, can you provide a quote?
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« Reply #11 on: January 26, 2011, 02:39:34 PM »

I don't know why there would be Orthodox thinking that abortion should be illegal.
You don't know why Christians should be agains legal murder? REEEEEEALLy?

That was clearly uncalled for and wrong. If you read Melodist's post you would have realized there was a TYPO.
I just did. I am mistaken. Please forgive me Melodist.
I was hoping it would be a case of "internet sarcasm" but it's ok as long as you see I modified my typo and understand what I meant.
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« Reply #12 on: January 26, 2011, 03:07:30 PM »

Are you saying Father Gregory's article is inaccurate?

The Ecumenical Patriarch, regardless of the fact that he does not speak for ALL the various Orthodox churches, does indeed speak publicly about the fact that abortion is acceptable under some circumstances.


I don't know why there would be Orthodox thinking that abortion should be illegal. And the only thing I can think about the gay marriage thing is that those people are probably thinking along the lines of "seperation of church and state" under the impression that legal recognition won't affect church life.

Our Hierarchs are most definitely against both. Here is something written by Met Jonah last year for the OCA. Also, there are a number of our clergy who signed the Manhattan Declaration which, while not any kind of official statement of any one hierarch or church and is not even limited to any particular Christian tradition, is still a sign of where our clergy and laity stand on these issues.

An Orthodox prayer taken from the OCA web site posted below Met Jonah's letter.
Quote
O Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son, Who are in the bosom of the Father, True God, source of life and immortality, Light of Light, Who came into the world to enlighten it: You were pleased to be conceived in the womb of the Virgin Mary for the salvation of our souls by the power of Your All-Holy Spirit. O Master, Who came that we might have life more abundantly, we ask You to enlighten the minds and hearts of those blinded to the truth that life begins at conception and that the unborn in the womb are already adorned with Your image and likeness; enable us to guard, cherish, and protect the lives of all those who are unable to care for themselves. For You are the Giver of Life, bringing each person from non-being into being, sealing each person with divine and infinite love. Be merciful, O Lord, to those who, through ignorance or willfulness, affront Your divine goodness and providence through the evil act of abortion. May they, and all of us, come to the life of Your Truth and glorify You, the Giver of Life, together with Your Father, and Your All-Holy and Life-giving Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen.


Mary, can you provide a quote?

http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/10/27/a-not-so-pro-life-patriarch/

My question is where is the universal Orthodox statement concerning the ABSOLUTE and UNMITIGATED evil that each and every abortion, regardless of the trimester, regardless of the circumstances.

M.
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« Reply #13 on: January 26, 2011, 03:09:41 PM »

My question is where is the universal Orthodox statement concerning the ABSOLUTE and UNMITIGATED evil that each and every abortion, regardless of the trimester, regardless of the circumstances.

M.

Yes, there is:

Quote from: Exodus 20, 13
You shall not kill.
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« Reply #14 on: January 26, 2011, 03:19:13 PM »

Saying Exodus 20:13 is an "Orthodox quote" condemning abortion is a little disingenuous, don't you think?  Not to mention a tad non-specific.
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« Reply #15 on: January 26, 2011, 03:22:44 PM »

Canon 91 of the Quinisext Ecumenical Council:

Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the foetus, are subjected to the penalty of murder.
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« Reply #16 on: January 26, 2011, 03:27:02 PM »

Cool. Can you provide any kind of official statement today that is binding on all Orthodox throughout the world?
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« Reply #17 on: January 26, 2011, 03:32:08 PM »

Cool. Can you provide any kind of official statement today that is binding on all Orthodox throughout the world?

There is no such modern-day statement on any issue, as you well know. There are precious few, if any, that are "binding" on Roman Catholics, for that matter, depending on what you mean by "binding."
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« Reply #18 on: January 26, 2011, 03:38:43 PM »

http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/10/27/a-not-so-pro-life-patriarch/

My question is where is the universal Orthodox statement concerning the ABSOLUTE and UNMITIGATED evil that each and every abortion, regardless of the trimester, regardless of the circumstances.

M.

I will say three things.

1. Do you have a link to the statement the article is quoting?

2. This is an example of why we don't believe in any hierarch possessing infallibility based solely on his office in the Church, even though I get the impression that he was not EP when he wrote that (not that it matters from an Orthodox POV, but the RC view of infallibility based on the office and not the person is why i say this).

3. The words I bolded. They are ridiculous. A hypothetical could be a situation where both lives are in danger and only one can be saved or both will die. But then again "mitigating circumstances" should be viewed on a case by case basis, and even then if something is wrong is done it should be confessed and the confessor should be free to discern circumstances and deal with them as lovingly as possible (excommunication can be love if it would be harmful to the individual to commune, but economy should not be disregarded if it may lead to spiritual healing). The aversion to strict legalism is one of the things I love most about Orthodox practice and reflects Christ's condescension to us in our sinful state.
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« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2011, 03:48:07 PM »

I don't know why there would be Orthodox thinking that abortion should be illegal. And the only thing I can think about the gay marriage thing is that those people are probably thinking along the lines of "seperation of church and state" under the impression that legal recognition won't affect church life.

Our Hierarchs are most definitely against both. Here is something written by Met Jonah last year for the OCA. Also, there are a number of our clergy who signed the Manhattan Declaration which, while not any kind of official statement of any one hierarch or church and is not even limited to any particular Christian tradition, is still a sign of where our clergy and laity stand on these issues.

An Orthodox prayer taken from the OCA web site posted below Met Jonah's letter.
Quote
O Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son, Who are in the bosom of the Father, True God, source of life and immortality, Light of Light, Who came into the world to enlighten it: You were pleased to be conceived in the womb of the Virgin Mary for the salvation of our souls by the power of Your All-Holy Spirit. O Master, Who came that we might have life more abundantly, we ask You to enlighten the minds and hearts of those blinded to the truth that life begins at conception and that the unborn in the womb are already adorned with Your image and likeness; enable us to guard, cherish, and protect the lives of all those who are unable to care for themselves. For You are the Giver of Life, bringing each person from non-being into being, sealing each person with divine and infinite love. Be merciful, O Lord, to those who, through ignorance or willfulness, affront Your divine goodness and providence through the evil act of abortion. May they, and all of us, come to the life of Your Truth and glorify You, the Giver of Life, together with Your Father, and Your All-Holy and Life-giving Spirit, now and ever and unto ages of ages. Amen.



First, I think you meant 'legal' rather than 'illegal'.

Second, I really don't understand the undercurrent in the tone of the OP and the constant back and forth between several posters across this forum that seems to be personal and goes on and on, distracting most of us from a more hearty and honest exchange of ideas.

For anyone to suggest that the Orthodox Church holds to the contrary is wrong and, as always given certain points of view, taking old statements out of context and understanding.

Not only is the OCA active in seeking to reduce and eliminate abortion in American, ACROD has been working with the OCA hierarchs for years on this. http://www.acrod.org/news/releases/2011-march You will find similar links and teachings on all Orthodox jurisdictional weblinks, including, but not limited to GOARCH and the UOC-USA.

Orthodox Christians throughout America are asked to prayerfully remember the victims of abortion, and to educate themselves about and support life-affirming, Church-related agencies and organizations, such as Zoe for Life,  Orthodox Christians for Life, and The Tree House

THe problem is not with our dogma but with its application. I thought that Father Gregory's article was insightful and very much in the tradition of Saint John Crysostom. Take for example the following:

"Painful though it is to acknowledge, many American Orthodox Christians find ourselves in the same position as traditional and observant Roman Catholics, Protestants, Jews or other religious believers.  We are being attacked not only from the outside but we are increasingly being undermined from within.  Part of this occurs as a result of our own efforts to “kick down the barricades.”  It may be that this is done in the name of our specific concerns as Orthodox Christians, but it effectively serves the agenda of a pervasive and destructive barbarism that is beyond our ability to control or direct.  In the end, I fear that we will find that our anti-Western Christian rhetoric is simply self-defeating." How many times have we ended up scratching our heads when our leaders go overboard in  practicing economia when confronted with unrepentant powerful politicians or filthy rich people?

"Our alliance with barbarism has happened because we have rejected the Christian roots of Western culture in a misguided effort to (1) keep the Church “Greek” (or “Russian,” or “Arab,” or “Serbian”) or (2) to distinguish “True Orthodoxy” from “false Catholicism” or (3) because, like Frank Schaeffer, we are simply cultural-despisers who have found that the Orthodox tradition is a convenient cudgel with which to continue waging our political or cultural battles." I have seen this in my lifetime and certainly on this forum.

He concludes by this important question: "The use of the vernacular –- a gift that the West has borrowed from the East –- must mean more than serving Liturgy in the spoken language of the marketplace.  It also means learning to faithfully express the meaning of the Gospel in the cultural life of our country.  While not without risk, it will – when done successfully (and we have Christ’s promise that we will be successful) – not only grow the Church, but transform the culture.

The spiritual genius of the Orthodox Church has always been the ability of the Church to take on and transform the dominate culture.  This means that just as Jesus was the authentic Jew among Jews, the Church has been – in turn – authentically Greek among the Greeks, and authentically Russian among the Russians, so too we must be authentically American among the Americans.  While have rarely done this perfectly, we have largely done this without sacrificing the Gospel or the communion of the various local or ethnic churches."
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« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2011, 03:52:32 PM »

Once again, the dead horse has been trotted out for its annual beating. Here is the clear and unambiguous teaching of the Orthodox Church as succinctly stated by Fr. Stanley Harakas. http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101

The Orthodox Church has a definite, formal and intended attitude toward abortion. It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brands abortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce to abortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by which abortion, with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life.
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« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2011, 04:03:10 PM »

I would encourage any Orthodox who struggle on whether or not abortion should be illegal to consider the works of H. Tristram Engelhardt, Jr.

While it is true that the laity among evangelical Christians tend to be more anti-abortion (which is not true of mainstream Protestants, many of whom teach abortion is a blessing), in the "upper-echelons" of Christianity, it seems there is a strong consensus that abortion is the intentional taking of an innocent human life (murder) and should be outlawed.

To be honest, the issue of abortion is near and dear to my heart, so it gladdens me to see the Orthodoxy Church's leaders have taken a stance against it and recognize the problem with the laity holding the views that they do. But let me say, without defaming anyone, that were the Church to begin teaching that anti-abortion is the stance any true Christian should take, you would lose Franky.
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« Reply #22 on: January 26, 2011, 04:05:58 PM »

Once again, the dead horse has been trotted out for its annual beating. Here is the clear and unambiguous teaching of the Orthodox Church as succinctly stated by Fr. Stanley Harakas. http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101

The Orthodox Church has a definite, formal and intended attitude toward abortion. It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brands abortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce to abortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by which abortion, with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life.

I would add that in the full article Fr. Stanley notes that this position was so stated at the 1976 Clergy Laity Conference of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America so that there would be no confusion about any impact of Roe v. Wade on the Orthodox faithful.
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« Reply #23 on: January 26, 2011, 04:11:26 PM »

Once again, the dead horse has been trotted out for its annual beating. Here is the clear and unambiguous teaching of the Orthodox Church as succinctly stated by Fr. Stanley Harakas. http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101

The Orthodox Church has a definite, formal and intended attitude toward abortion. It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brands abortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce to abortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by which abortion, with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life.

This is all misleading. The article that the OP has posted is not at all about Orthodox teaching but about Orthodox practice. While the same situation exists in other churches, I must say that some Roman Catholic hierarchs and Protstant pastors have acted more courageously toward putative Roman Catholic pro-abortion politicians than Orhtodox hierarchs who have found themselves confronting the same problem. But, forget about the hierarchy for a moment, isn't it scandalous that "According to the PEW survey, the majority of Orthodox laity agree that abortion and gay marriage should be legal" ?
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« Reply #24 on: January 26, 2011, 04:15:07 PM »

While I certainly hold abortion to be a form of murder, I am not really opposed to the so-called "gay marriage", as long as churches have the right to refuse from blessing it, if it is against their practice. I wonder where I fall.
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« Reply #25 on: January 26, 2011, 04:18:43 PM »

While I certainly hold abortion to be a form of murder, I am not really opposed to the so-called "gay marriage", as long as churches have the right to refuse from blessing it, if it is against their practice. I wonder where I fall.

That's not an uncommon perspective around here.
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« Reply #26 on: January 26, 2011, 04:24:00 PM »

While I certainly hold abortion to be a form of murder, I am not really opposed to the so-called "gay marriage", as long as churches have the right to refuse from blessing it, if it is against their practice. I wonder where I fall.

That's not an uncommon perspective around here.
Yeah, but do we count as "libruls"?
That's the question.
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« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2011, 04:24:41 PM »

Cool. Can you provide any kind of official statement today that is binding on all Orthodox throughout the world?


http://www.ocf.org/OrthodoxPage/prayers/abrtpryr.html
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« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2011, 04:27:52 PM »

While I certainly hold abortion to be a form of murder, I am not really opposed to the so-called "gay marriage", as long as churches have the right to refuse from blessing it, if it is against their practice. I wonder where I fall.

That's not an uncommon perspective around here.
Yeah, but do we count as "libruls"?
That's the question.

Who cares?

My political opinions are mixed enough that I stopped trying to label myself as "liberal" or "conservative" a long time ago.
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« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2011, 04:30:15 PM »

While I certainly hold abortion to be a form of murder, I am not really opposed to the so-called "gay marriage", as long as churches have the right to refuse from blessing it, if it is against their practice. I wonder where I fall.

That's not an uncommon perspective around here.
Yeah, but do we count as "libruls"?
That's the question.

Who cares?

My political opinions are mixed enough that I stopped trying to label myself as "liberal" or "conservative" a long time ago.
Well, maybe the question should be asked: is it opinion or Orthodoxy that is the most important?

In Christ,
Andrew
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« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2011, 04:35:35 PM »

^Re: my last post:  The rule of prayer is the rule of faith, binding upon all Orthodox.  Of course, the canons of the Orthodox Church are unanimous on the subject, (canon 91 of the 6th as already mentioned, but also the canons of Ancyra, Canons 2 and 8 of St. Basil).  
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« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2011, 05:05:11 PM »

http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/10/27/a-not-so-pro-life-patriarch/

My question is where is the universal Orthodox statement concerning the ABSOLUTE and UNMITIGATED evil that each and every abortion, regardless of the trimester, regardless of the circumstances.

M.

I will say three things.

1. Do you have a link to the statement the article is quoting?

2. This is an example of why we don't believe in any hierarch possessing infallibility based solely on his office in the Church, even though I get the impression that he was not EP when he wrote that (not that it matters from an Orthodox POV, but the RC view of infallibility based on the office and not the person is why i say this).

3. The words I bolded. They are ridiculous. A hypothetical could be a situation where both lives are in danger and only one can be saved or both will die. But then again "mitigating circumstances" should be viewed on a case by case basis, and even then if something is wrong is done it should be confessed and the confessor should be free to discern circumstances and deal with them as lovingly as possible (excommunication can be love if it would be harmful to the individual to commune, but economy should not be disregarded if it may lead to spiritual healing). The aversion to strict legalism is one of the things I love most about Orthodox practice and reflects Christ's condescension to us in our sinful state.

Well then the Catholics who have approached and reproached Father Ambrose on other venues have a point, don't they? 

Orthodoxy does not have a strong statement that says that abortion is an intrinsic evil no matter what the circumstances...and so you have nothing to turn to, and therefore you make up what circumstances suit you and draw the line there.  Every person has a different line.

Catholics want to know where the universal Orthodox line is.

As far as I can tell there isn't one.
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« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2011, 05:05:11 PM »

Once again, the dead horse has been trotted out for its annual beating. Here is the clear and unambiguous teaching of the Orthodox Church as succinctly stated by Fr. Stanley Harakas. http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101

The Orthodox Church has a definite, formal and intended attitude toward abortion. It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brands abortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce to abortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by which abortion, with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life.

This is not Catholic teaching.  I know you are not suggesting that it is.  However when Catholics point this out to Orthodox believers, somehow we are being insulting.

Orthodoxy formally makes exceptions for something which the Catholic Church makes no exceptions and does so in such a way that it leaves the message with the Orthodox believer that it is all right to choose to kill the in-utero child, under certain circumstances.

What the Catholic Church does say is that in those EXTREMELY RARE MEDICAL CIRCUMSTANCES where it is A CLEAR CHOICE....most of the time the choice is not at all that clear....if the effort to save the mother results in the death of the child then there has been no sin...BUT IF...the choice is made to kill the child to save the mother then there has been a murder committed.   Meaning that you just cannot go in and abort the baby and hope to save the mother once the baby is out of the way, which is what happens in fact in most of those instances.

What we must do is try everything humanly possible to save both.

So again, when we talk about joining together to present moral teaching in the world...It cannot be done because we do not teach the same thing.

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« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2011, 05:11:52 PM »

While I certainly hold abortion to be a form of murder, I am not really opposed to the so-called "gay marriage", as long as churches have the right to refuse from blessing it, if it is against their practice. I wonder where I fall.

That's not an uncommon perspective around here.
Yeah, but do we count as "libruls"?
That's the question.

Who cares?

My political opinions are mixed enough that I stopped trying to label myself as "liberal" or "conservative" a long time ago.
Well, maybe the question should be asked: is it opinion or Orthodoxy that is the most important?

In Christ,
Andrew

Orthodoxy: the opinions are informed by it; precisely why they do not fit neatly into either of the abominable modernist movements of liberalism or conservatism.
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« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2011, 05:13:10 PM »

The poor, dead horse is looking rather mangy. All the beatings it has received have caused split hairs.
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« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2011, 05:48:05 PM »

Once again, the dead horse has been trotted out for its annual beating. Here is the clear and unambiguous teaching of the Orthodox Church as succinctly stated by Fr. Stanley Harakas. http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101

The Orthodox Church has a definite, formal and intended attitude toward abortion. It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brands abortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce to abortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by which abortion, with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life.

This is not Catholic teaching.  I know you are not suggesting that it is.  However when Catholics point this out to Orthodox believers, somehow we are being insulting.

Orthodoxy formally makes exceptions for something which the Catholic Church makes no exceptions and does so in such a way that it leaves the message with the Orthodox believer that it is all right to choose to kill the in-utero child, under certain circumstances.

What the Catholic Church does say is that in those EXTREMELY RARE MEDICAL CIRCUMSTANCES where it is A CLEAR CHOICE....most of the time the choice is not at all that clear....if the effort to save the mother results in the death of the child then there has been no sin...BUT IF...the choice is made to kill the child to save the mother then there has been a murder committed.   Meaning that you just cannot go in and abort the baby and hope to save the mother once the baby is out of the way, which is what happens in fact in most of those instances.

What we must do is try everything humanly possible to save both.

So again, when we talk about joining together to present moral teaching in the world...It cannot be done because we do not teach the same thing.



That's actually exactly the traditional position in Orthodoxy. In fact, that doesn't even go far enough. The Church has penitential prayers and penances even for women who miscarry. Those who abort, or aid and abet the abortion, no matter the circumstance, receive a hefty excommunication, according to the manuals for confessors.

The difference between our Churches is that Rome does a good job of publishing books and making statements about official policies (which most everyone ignores), and we do none of that, instead covering these things in training for priests/confessors (whose presence most everyone ignores). Either way, it's a remnant.
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« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2011, 06:11:33 PM »

The poor, dead horse is looking rather mangy. All the beatings it has received have caused split hairs.

Well why don't you write and tell Father Gregory and Father Hans Jacobse who also must have thought the article had sufficient merit to have Father Gregory do a reprise of his first article.

You might want to mute the discussion though, eh? 

You fit right into what Father Gregory has said about Orthodox laity and clergy.

M.
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« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2011, 06:13:43 PM »

If, following the Catholic position propounded in this thread, abortion is made illegal under all and any circumstances whatsoever, then what form of punishment does the Catholic position propose should be meted out? Should the doctor, or the woman, or both be punished? If so, what sort of punishment? Should the woman be imprisoned, and for how long? Should any man who approves of his wife/partner's abortion also be punished as an accomplice? What if the man denies any involvement, but the woman has an audio-tape of him affirming his support? Or would it only be the woman's fault, regardless of the man's involvement (which might include pressuring her to get an abortion)?

I'm all for decreasing and eliminating the need for abortion. Whether the American criminal justice system is the way to go about it, is a different question.
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« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2011, 06:51:14 PM »

http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/firstthoughts/2009/10/27/a-not-so-pro-life-patriarch/

My question is where is the universal Orthodox statement concerning the ABSOLUTE and UNMITIGATED evil that each and every abortion, regardless of the trimester, regardless of the circumstances.

M.

I will say three things.

1. Do you have a link to the statement the article is quoting?

2. This is an example of why we don't believe in any hierarch possessing infallibility based solely on his office in the Church, even though I get the impression that he was not EP when he wrote that (not that it matters from an Orthodox POV, but the RC view of infallibility based on the office and not the person is why i say this).

3. The words I bolded. They are ridiculous. A hypothetical could be a situation where both lives are in danger and only one can be saved or both will die. But then again "mitigating circumstances" should be viewed on a case by case basis, and even then if something is wrong is done it should be confessed and the confessor should be free to discern circumstances and deal with them as lovingly as possible (excommunication can be love if it would be harmful to the individual to commune, but economy should not be disregarded if it may lead to spiritual healing). The aversion to strict legalism is one of the things I love most about Orthodox practice and reflects Christ's condescension to us in our sinful state.

Well then the Catholics who have approached and reproached Father Ambrose on other venues have a point, don't they? 

Orthodoxy does not have a strong statement that says that abortion is an intrinsic evil no matter what the circumstances...and so you have nothing to turn to, and therefore you make up what circumstances suit you and draw the line there.  Every person has a different line.

Catholics want to know where the universal Orthodox line is.

As far as I can tell there isn't one.

As far as I nkow, it's not universal condemnation regardless of circumstances. And as "black and white" as Rome claims this issue to be, it goes against your teaching on what is required for a mortal sin. For any sin to be a mortal sin, you need grievous matter, sufficient reflection, and full consent of the will. The act of abortion itself is "grievous matter" to use the language of your Church. As far as reflection and consent of will, you don't know that in the case of every single abortion that occurs. The biggest difference between Orhtodoxy and Catholicism is that Orthodoxy doesn't formally define the differences between venial and mortal sin or establish formal criteria for determining mortal sin. It's easy for you to say "x" is intrinsically evil and only be talking about the "grievous matter" aspect (which I hope is the case), while that position may seem extreme to someone who does not make those distinctions. That's probably why you're having such a hard time finding the "line" you're looking for in Orthodoxy. The flip side to not having a clear line is to focus solely on what you would consider one aspect of mortal sin and ignore the other two to the point of over legalism in dealing with the problem on a personal basis.
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« Reply #39 on: January 26, 2011, 06:53:53 PM »

If, following the Catholic position propounded in this thread, abortion is made illegal under all and any circumstances whatsoever, then what form of punishment does the Catholic position propose should be meted out? Should the doctor, or the woman, or both be punished? If so, what sort of punishment? Should the woman be imprisoned, and for how long? Should any man who approves of his wife/partner's abortion also be punished as an accomplice? What if the man denies any involvement, but the woman has an audio-tape of him affirming his support? Or would it only be the woman's fault, regardless of the man's involvement (which might include pressuring her to get an abortion)?

I'm all for decreasing and eliminating the need for abortion. Whether the American criminal justice system is the way to go about it, is a different question.

Don't forget the woman who may be in the hospital for something else, loses consciousness, her husband signs all the paperwork, and the next time she wakes up it's over and done with and she had no part in it.
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« Reply #40 on: January 26, 2011, 06:56:20 PM »

The poor, dead horse is looking rather mangy. All the beatings it has received have caused split hairs.

Well why don't you write and tell Father Gregory and Father Hans Jacobse who also must have thought the article had sufficient merit to have Father Gregory do a reprise of his first article.

You might want to mute the discussion though, eh? 

You fit right into what Father Gregory has said about Orthodox laity and clergy.

M.

I do know that this has been beaten as Shianghaski said, here and elsewhere, e.g.
http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php/topic,26264.0.html

where those of who have taken the EP to task for this, and those who defend him, have battled this out.

Quote
The Vatican is now acknowledging allegations first reported in the Catholic press. (CBS)

The Vatican acknowledged Tuesday a report alleging that some priests and missionaries were forcing nuns to have sex with them and in some cases forced their rape victims to have abortions.

Other nuns were forced to take birth control pills, according to the report cited in the Rome daily newspaper la Repubblica.

The Vatican said the issue was restricted to a certain geographical area, but the report cited cases in 23 countries, including the United States, Brazil, the Philippines, India, Ireland and Italy.

A Vatican statement said "in relation to the news of cases of sexual abuse against nuns committed by priests and missionaries…the problem is known about and is restricted to a certain geographical area. The Holy See is dealing with the issue in collaboration with bishops, the Union of Superiors General (grouping of heads of male religious orders) and the International Union of Superiors General (heads of female religious orders)."

While the Vatican did not name the geographical area, the report said most incidents of sexual abuse against nuns occurred in Africa where the nuns were identified as "safe" following the onset of the HIV and AIDS viruses devastating the continent.

Charges made in the report, signed with names and surnames, were made known to Church authorities on several occasions throughout the 1990s, according to the article by Marco Politi, la Repubblica's Vatican correspondent.

The author of the report was nun and physician Maura O'Donohue, who presented it to the head of the Vatican's Congregation for Holy Orders, Cardinal Martinez Somalo, in February 1995
http://www.aegis.com/news/re/2001/RE010336.html
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Roman%20Catholicism/sex_scandal.htm

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« Reply #41 on: January 26, 2011, 06:58:40 PM »

isn't it scandalous that "According to the PEW survey, the majority of Orthodox laity agree that abortion and gay marriage should be legal" ?

I agree.
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« Reply #42 on: January 26, 2011, 07:14:10 PM »


The Ecumenical Patriarch, regardless of the fact that he does not speak for ALL the various Orthodox churches, does indeed speak publicly about the fact that abortion is acceptable under some circumstances.

To the everlasting shame of Orthodoxy the Ecumenical Patriarch appears to allow abortion in *any* circumstances decided by the husband and wife.  But, glory to God, there are articles on the Net from other Bishops of the Ecumenical Patriarchate which teach the authentic Orthodox teaching.

We know some of the earliest patristic writings and canons of the Church and more recently, in 2000, the Synod of the Russian Orthodox Church has formally re-affirmed that position ~abortion is a sin equated with murder.

However, Orthodox Christians for Life has an article which inform us that the Ecumenical Patriarch does not have such a position and leaves questions of abortion to the decision of the husband and wife.  Presumably this means he would adopt the samed laissez-faire position with regard to the Pill.

I have to confess that when the Patriarch visited this country I found myself unable to take a blessing and kiss his hand because of this.


"Orthodox Patriarchs 'Wink' at Abortion"
(written by a priest under the Ecumenical Throne)
http://web.archive.org/web/20040407123705/http://www.oclife.org/vnine.pdf


Here are his words:

"Although the Orthodox Church believes the soul
enters the body at conception and, generally
speaking, respects human life and the continuation
of the pregnancy," Bartholomew said, the church
also "respects the liberty and freedom of all human
persons and all Christian couples. . . .We are not
allowed to enter the bedrooms of the Christian
couples," he also said. "We cannot generalize.
There are many reasons for a couple to go toward
abortion."


I understand that Fr Dr Edward Pehanich (ACROD, founder of Orthodox
Christians For Life) who reported all this in an article in oclife.org
<http://www.oclife.org/vnine.pdf > has sought clarification or retraction
from His Divine All-Holiness.  There has been no response.

As for those who doubt that the Patriarch was honestly reported, why would
Fr Edward Pehanich who holds a prominent position in ACROD highlight these
remarks in the Orthodox Christians for Life magazine if they were
unreliable, thereby antagonising his supreme spiritual authority in the
Phanar. I'd say he's a brave and honest priest.

If you'd like to contact Fr Edward and ask for up to date information his
contact details are:

Very Rev. Dr. Edward Pehanich
10062 Firethorn Dr.
N. Huntingdon, PA 15642
Phone: (724) 863-3741
---

And Fr Anthony Nelson, a prominent ROCA priest in the Right to Life
Movement, has written:

"We at Oklahoma Orthodox Christians for Life also wrote both to the
Patriarchate and the GOA requesting comments/clarification of the comments
at the time. Our requests went unanswered."

Protopriest Anthony Nelson
St. Benedict Russian Orthodox Church
Oklahoma City, OK USA 405-672-1441
Source:
https://listserv.indiana.edu/cgi-bin/wa-iub.exe?A2=ind0701D&L=ORTHODOX&D=0&m=99815&P=6149

____________________________
If the Patriarch were wrongly reported it seems to me that he has a strong moral responsibility as the guide and father of his spiritual flock to correct the statement and publicly support the moral teaching of the Church.  Why has he not done so?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2011, 07:34:32 PM by Irish Hermit » Logged
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« Reply #43 on: January 26, 2011, 07:25:34 PM »

Orthodoxy does not have a strong statement that says that abortion is an intrinsic evil no matter what the circumstances...and so you have nothing to turn to, and therefore you make up what circumstances suit you and draw the line there.  Every person has a different line.


Here is the official voice of the Russian Orthodox Church.   No "ifs..." or "implies..." 


2. Since the ancient time the Church has viewed deliberate abortion as a grave sin. The canons equate abortion with murder. This assessment is based on the conviction that the conception of a human being is a gift of God. Therefore, from the moment of conception any encroachment on the life of a future human being is criminal.

http://incommunion.org/articles/the-orthodox-church-and-society/xii

"The Basis of the Social Concept of the Russian Orthodox Church"

Document Adopted by the Jubilee Bishops’ Council
of the Russian Orthodox Church,
in August 2000, Moscow, Russia


Here is the Greek Bishop Joseph Harkiolakis:

"Human life begins from the moment of conception and fertilisation. The Church believes this, and so does contemporary medicine (Panhellenic Medical Conference 1985). Furthermore the science of embryology, with the assistance of ultrasound and of other admirable technological means which are available, proved that the unborn baby is "certainly a new human being, a new member of human society, inseparable from each and every one of us in any way" (Dr Bernard Nathanson). Therefore, from the moment of conception, the violation of life at whatever stage is murder! As much as the killing of an adult or an adolescent is murder, so much so is the killing of a foetus by abortion at any stage of pregnancy. It is the cowardly murder of an innocent and completely unprotected human being, which has no possibility whatsoever to defend or protect itself."
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« Reply #44 on: January 26, 2011, 07:27:53 PM »

Cool. Can you provide any kind of official statement today that is binding on all Orthodox throughout the world?


Theistgirl.

You have not understood.  This is our canon law.  For us it is as binding today as the first moment it was formulated.


Canon 91 of the Quinisext Ecumenical Council:

Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the foetus, are subjected to the penalty of murder.
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« Reply #45 on: January 26, 2011, 07:32:35 PM »

The poor, dead horse is looking rather mangy. All the beatings it has received have caused split hairs.

Well why don't you write and tell Father Gregory and Father Hans Jacobse who also must have thought the article had sufficient merit to have Father Gregory do a reprise of his first article.

You might want to mute the discussion though, eh?  

You fit right into what Father Gregory has said about Orthodox laity and clergy.

M.

I only skimmed the article.  I was looking for Church references.  I did not find any.  I only found talk about secular politicians.  Where there any Church statements approving abortion in the article?
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« Reply #46 on: January 26, 2011, 07:36:20 PM »

Cool. Can you provide any kind of official statement today that is binding on all Orthodox throughout the world?


Theistgirl.

You have not understood.  This is our canon law.  For us it is as binding today as the first moment it was formulated.


Canon 91 of the Quinisext Ecumenical Council:

Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the foetus, are subjected to the penalty of murder.
I hope that that is stll the position of your Church.
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« Reply #47 on: January 26, 2011, 07:39:44 PM »

Cool. Can you provide any kind of official statement today that is binding on all Orthodox throughout the world?


Theistgirl.

You have not understood.  This is our canon law.  For us it is as binding today as the first moment it was formulated.


Canon 91 of the Quinisext Ecumenical Council:

Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the foetus, are subjected to the penalty of murder.
I hope that that is stll the position of your Church.

I believe that is what I said.

For some reasons which we shall not enquire into, Mary feels the need to demonise Orthodoxy on certain topics which she keeps returning to - abortion, sexual liberalism...
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« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2011, 07:41:36 PM »

Cool. Can you provide any kind of official statement today that is binding on all Orthodox throughout the world?


Theistgirl.

You have not understood.  This is our canon law.  For us it is as binding today as the first moment it was formulated.


Canon 91 of the Quinisext Ecumenical Council:

Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the foetus, are subjected to the penalty of murder.
I hope that that is stll the position of your Church.

I believe that is what I said.

For some reasons which we shall not enquire into, Mary feels the need to demonise Orthodoxy on certain topics which she keeps returning to - abortion, sexual liberalism...
You mean the way a certain Eastern Orthodox Priest-Monk from NZ is constantly demonizing the Catholic Church?  Cheesy
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« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2011, 07:54:49 PM »

Cool. Can you provide any kind of official statement today that is binding on all Orthodox throughout the world?


Theistgirl.

You have not understood.  This is our canon law.  For us it is as binding today as the first moment it was formulated.


Canon 91 of the Quinisext Ecumenical Council:

Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the foetus, are subjected to the penalty of murder.
I hope that that is stll the position of your Church.

I believe that is what I said.

For some reasons which we shall not enquire into, Mary feels the need to demonise Orthodoxy on certain topics which she keeps returning to - abortion, sexual liberalism...
You mean the way a certain Eastern Orthodox Priest-Monk from NZ is constantly demonizing the Catholic Church?  Cheesy

No need to do that.  Even your top people say that the smoke of the demons has invaded the Vatican.

"The smoke of Satan,", warned Paul VI, "has found its way into the Church through the fissures."  It was an anguished warning that caused great shock and scandal, even within the Catholic world.
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« Reply #50 on: January 26, 2011, 07:55:36 PM »

Cool. Can you provide any kind of official statement today that is binding on all Orthodox throughout the world?


Theistgirl.

You have not understood.  This is our canon law.  For us it is as binding today as the first moment it was formulated.


Canon 91 of the Quinisext Ecumenical Council:

Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the foetus, are subjected to the penalty of murder.
I hope that that is stll the position of your Church.

I believe that is what I said.

For some reasons which we shall not enquire into, Mary feels the need to demonise Orthodoxy on certain topics which she keeps returning to - abortion, sexual liberalism...
You mean the way a certain Eastern Orthodox Priest-Monk from NZ is constantly demonizing the Catholic Church?  Cheesy

No need to do that.  Even your top people say that the smoke of the demons has invaded the Vatican.

"The smoke of Satan,", warned Paul VI, "has found its way into the Church through the fissures."  It was an anguished warning that caused great shock and scandal, even within the Catholic world.

Thank you for proving my point Fr. A.  Grin
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« Reply #51 on: January 26, 2011, 08:00:21 PM »

Cool. Can you provide any kind of official statement today that is binding on all Orthodox throughout the world?


Theistgirl.

You have not understood.  This is our canon law.  For us it is as binding today as the first moment it was formulated.


Canon 91 of the Quinisext Ecumenical Council:

Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the foetus, are subjected to the penalty of murder.
I hope that that is stll the position of your Church.

I believe that is what I said.

For some reasons which we shall not enquire into, Mary feels the need to demonise Orthodoxy on certain topics which she keeps returning to - abortion, sexual liberalism...
You mean the way a certain Eastern Orthodox Priest-Monk from NZ is constantly demonizing the Catholic Church?  Cheesy

No need to do that.  Even your top people say that the smoke of the demons has invaded the Vatican.

"The smoke of Satan,", warned Paul VI, "has found its way into the Church through the fissures."  It was an anguished warning that caused great shock and scandal, even within the Catholic world.

Thank you for proving my point Fr. A.  Grin

Merely agreeing with your holy Pope.  And I also say that the smoke of Satan has invaded the Phanar too, with the Patriarch's statement on abortion.   I pray to God that he never said that but to date he has issued no denial.
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« Reply #52 on: January 26, 2011, 09:23:27 PM »

no big deal, but it's "Theistgal", not "girl" - my girlhood days are long gone. Wink
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« Reply #53 on: January 26, 2011, 11:39:32 PM »

Once again, the dead horse has been trotted out for its annual beating. Here is the clear and unambiguous teaching of the Orthodox Church as succinctly stated by Fr. Stanley Harakas. http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101

The Orthodox Church has a definite, formal and intended attitude toward abortion. It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brands abortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce to abortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by which abortion, with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life.

This is not Catholic teaching.  I know you are not suggesting that it is.  However when Catholics point this out to Orthodox believers, somehow we are being insulting.

Orthodoxy formally makes exceptions for something which the Catholic Church makes no exceptions and does so in such a way that it leaves the message with the Orthodox believer that it is all right to choose to kill the in-utero child, under certain circumstances.

What the Catholic Church does say is that in those EXTREMELY RARE MEDICAL CIRCUMSTANCES where it is A CLEAR CHOICE....most of the time the choice is not at all that clear....if the effort to save the mother results in the death of the child then there has been no sin...BUT IF...the choice is made to kill the child to save the mother then there has been a murder committed.   Meaning that you just cannot go in and abort the baby and hope to save the mother once the baby is out of the way, which is what happens in fact in most of those instances.

What we must do is try everything humanly possible to save both.

So again, when we talk about joining together to present moral teaching in the world...It cannot be done because we do not teach the same thing.


On the contrary, dear ElijahMaria; you do not have to be lawyers or to resort to lawyer like verbiage to agree on this issue. We only need to agree on the principles here and we do agree so substantially that the difference that you cite is really meaningless. (OK, I'll give you that your verbiage is more precise but our principles are the same). So, the problem is again, application. Both of our churches have seen many laypersons in elected positions vote for pro-abortion legislation with nary a public rebuke from their spiritual fathers. Is this not a true scandal? Both of our churches are rife with clergy who are afraid to teach the Church's anti-abortion teachings because they fear they will alienate some (many?) of their parishioners. Is this not a tragic shortcoming? Against these, why are we quibbling about formulations of positions?
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« Reply #54 on: January 27, 2011, 01:59:08 AM »

isn't it scandalous that "According to the PEW survey, the majority of Orthodox laity agree that abortion and gay marriage should be legal" ?

With respect to the former, yes. With respect to the latter, because civil marriage is really a distinct reality from the Sacred Mystery of Matrimony, no, it shouldn't be.
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« Reply #55 on: January 27, 2011, 11:34:31 AM »

I just posted the following on the "Christian News" and would appreciate your input in the context of Orthodox-Catholic diologue, particularly regarding the operationalization of our respective teachings regarding abortion, beyond the confessional.

"I do not have any other "official" accounts but the one from OCA (http://www.oca.org/news/2392). It seems that the participants in this year's march included only OCA hierarchs and priests:

"Joining Metropolitan Jonah in leading the Orthodox Christian marchers were His Grace, Bishop Tikhon of Philadelphia and Eastern Pennsylvania; His Grace, Bishop Michael of New York and New Jersey; His Grace, Bishop Melchisedek of Pittsburgh and Western Pennsylvania; Archimandrite Matthias, Bishop-Elect of Chicago and the Midwest; faculty and students from Saint Tikhon's Seminary, South Canaan, PA and Saint Vladimir's Seminary, Crestwood, NY; and Orthodox Christian clergy and faithful from the east coast and beyond."

My question, in light of a separate discussion on our teachings about abortion, is why is this so? It cannot be that other hierarchs are loath to participate in public marches. How can we Orthodox not show solidarity on an issue that we all agree on? Indeed, the lack of priests from other than OCA seems to indicate that their bishops have indicated that their participation is not desired. I really hope that I am wrong about this."
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« Reply #56 on: January 27, 2011, 11:42:34 AM »

I just posted the following on the "Christian News" and would appreciate your input in the context of Orthodox-Catholic diologue, particularly regarding the operationalization of our respective teachings regarding abortion, beyond the confessional.

"I do not have any other "official" accounts but the one from OCA (http://www.oca.org/news/2392). It seems that the participants in this year's march included only OCA hierarchs and priests:

"Joining Metropolitan Jonah in leading the Orthodox Christian marchers were His Grace, Bishop Tikhon of Philadelphia and Eastern Pennsylvania; His Grace, Bishop Michael of New York and New Jersey; His Grace, Bishop Melchisedek of Pittsburgh and Western Pennsylvania; Archimandrite Matthias, Bishop-Elect of Chicago and the Midwest; faculty and students from Saint Tikhon's Seminary, South Canaan, PA and Saint Vladimir's Seminary, Crestwood, NY; and Orthodox Christian clergy and faithful from the east coast and beyond."

My question, in light of a separate discussion on our teachings about abortion, is why is this so? It cannot be that other hierarchs are loath to participate in public marches. How can we Orthodox not show solidarity on an issue that we all agree on? Indeed, the lack of priests from other than OCA seems to indicate that their bishops have indicated that their participation is not desired. I really hope that I am wrong about this."

Your claim regarding the OCA's exclusivity is not true. I posted this link here yesterday. http://www.acrod.org/news/releases/2011-march In prior years when his health was robust, Metropolitan Nicholas was a regular fixture at the March with the prior Metropolitans of the OCA. Many busloads of faithful from ACROD have attended this event annually.
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« Reply #57 on: January 27, 2011, 11:53:21 AM »

The poor, dead horse is looking rather mangy. All the beatings it has received have caused split hairs.

Well why don't you write and tell Father Gregory and Father Hans Jacobse who also must have thought the article had sufficient merit to have Father Gregory do a reprise of his first article.

You might want to mute the discussion though, eh? 

You fit right into what Father Gregory has said about Orthodox laity and clergy.

M.

You appear to be the one grinding the axe here.
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« Reply #58 on: January 27, 2011, 12:08:25 PM »

I just posted the following on the "Christian News" and would appreciate your input in the context of Orthodox-Catholic diologue, particularly regarding the operationalization of our respective teachings regarding abortion, beyond the confessional.

"I do not have any other "official" accounts but the one from OCA (http://www.oca.org/news/2392). It seems that the participants in this year's march included only OCA hierarchs and priests:

"Joining Metropolitan Jonah in leading the Orthodox Christian marchers were His Grace, Bishop Tikhon of Philadelphia and Eastern Pennsylvania; His Grace, Bishop Michael of New York and New Jersey; His Grace, Bishop Melchisedek of Pittsburgh and Western Pennsylvania; Archimandrite Matthias, Bishop-Elect of Chicago and the Midwest; faculty and students from Saint Tikhon's Seminary, South Canaan, PA and Saint Vladimir's Seminary, Crestwood, NY; and Orthodox Christian clergy and faithful from the east coast and beyond."

My question, in light of a separate discussion on our teachings about abortion, is why is this so? It cannot be that other hierarchs are loath to participate in public marches. How can we Orthodox not show solidarity on an issue that we all agree on? Indeed, the lack of priests from other than OCA seems to indicate that their bishops have indicated that their participation is not desired. I really hope that I am wrong about this."

Your claim regarding the OCA's exclusivity is not true. I posted this link here yesterday. http://www.acrod.org/news/releases/2011-march In prior years when his health was robust, Metropolitan Nicholas was a regular fixture at the March with the prior Metropolitans of the OCA. Many busloads of faithful from ACROD have attended this event annually.

I came across this post on another forum and I have taken the liberty of quoting it here as it bears witness to Orthodox participation. It refers to this week's west coast March for Life and it is from a Byzantine Catholic participant"


"It was a wonderful day! The estimate is 40K people. We had 35K last year in the rain. Yesterday was picture perfect weather. In spite of ever larger numbers of participants the coverage in the NoCa papers appears to be even less than in past years, which really seemed impossible since the coverage had already been nearly nonexistent. What I've found in the main press was the same few paragraphs pulled off the same AP feed.

The Sacramento Bee did post a short video on their web site which looks like it came from a Smart Phone perhaps part of this movement begun by the Facebook group "I'm Bringing My Smart Phone to the March For Life!" set up by those who are tired of the failure of the press to cover with an integrity the March for Life, and the Walk for Life.

I was delighted to meet babochka, her family, and others from St. Philip Byzantine Catholic Church including their priest and his family. My daughter and I separated early on from the couple of other Our Lady of Fatima Byzantine Catholic Church folks who were with Fr. Vito and his monastery group, because I wanted to wait for the rest of the St. Philip group.

Thankfully Orthodox clergy know how to dress and grow their hair   Eventually my daughter and I got separated from St.Philip's group and then I saw in the distance cassocks and long hair. Indeed it was Fr. Silas, from St Timothy Orthodox Church, Fairfield, with Fr. Aris and Presbytera of Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Church, SF and Fr.Dn Brendan (I believe) from Holy Trinity Cathedral SF. I chatted briefly with one of their group who was from a small parish in Angel's Camp, which I believe was St. Gabriel Orthodox Church so they had a wide spread group! Another OLF parishioner joined up while I was still with the Orthodox group for part of the last mile.

Hopefully having managed to connect this year during the Walk, thanks to the Holy Spirit, we can maybe actually plan a combined Orthodox EC group next year..."

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« Reply #59 on: January 27, 2011, 01:09:15 PM »

Once again, the dead horse has been trotted out for its annual beating. Here is the clear and unambiguous teaching of the Orthodox Church as succinctly stated by Fr. Stanley Harakas. http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101

The Orthodox Church has a definite, formal and intended attitude toward abortion. It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brands abortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce to abortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by which abortion, with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life.

This is not Catholic teaching.  I know you are not suggesting that it is.  However when Catholics point this out to Orthodox believers, somehow we are being insulting.

Orthodoxy formally makes exceptions for something which the Catholic Church makes no exceptions and does so in such a way that it leaves the message with the Orthodox believer that it is all right to choose to kill the in-utero child, under certain circumstances.

What the Catholic Church does say is that in those EXTREMELY RARE MEDICAL CIRCUMSTANCES where it is A CLEAR CHOICE....most of the time the choice is not at all that clear....if the effort to save the mother results in the death of the child then there has been no sin...BUT IF...the choice is made to kill the child to save the mother then there has been a murder committed.   Meaning that you just cannot go in and abort the baby and hope to save the mother once the baby is out of the way, which is what happens in fact in most of those instances.

What we must do is try everything humanly possible to save both.

So again, when we talk about joining together to present moral teaching in the world...It cannot be done because we do not teach the same thing.


On the contrary, dear ElijahMaria; you do not have to be lawyers or to resort to lawyer like verbiage to agree on this issue. We only need to agree on the principles here and we do agree so substantially that the difference that you cite is really meaningless. (OK, I'll give you that your verbiage is more precise but our principles are the same). So, the problem is again, application. Both of our churches have seen many laypersons in elected positions vote for pro-abortion legislation with nary a public rebuke from their spiritual fathers. Is this not a true scandal? Both of our churches are rife with clergy who are afraid to teach the Church's anti-abortion teachings because they fear they will alienate some (many?) of their parishioners. Is this not a tragic shortcoming? Against these, why are we quibbling about formulations of positions?

Talk about a timely article, from today's New York Times OpEd is a piece by Nicholas Kristoff regarding the dispute between a Latin Bishop and a regional Catholic hospital. I should note that Kristoff's father's family is Lemko so I am assuming that he has some familiarity with Eastern Christianity and its approach to difficult moral issues. I don't know that particulars of the case in question but I think that the piece is worth reading in the context of the ongoing discussion on this thread. I think that Kristoff is, in the end, espousing a position that is not acceptable to either Orthodox or Roman Catholics if taken to its logical extension, but I think that, if we take the hospital's position at face value, the Orthodox response to the particular, specific case MAY have been approached differently. In any event, it provides food for thought. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/27/opinion/27kristof.html?hp

"....The hospital’s offense? It had terminated a pregnancy to save the life of the mother. The hospital says the 27-year-old woman, a mother of four children, would almost certainly have died otherwise....

.....Bishop Olmsted initially excommunicated a nun, Sister Margaret McBride, who had been on the hospital’s ethics committee and had approved of the decision. That seems to have been a failed attempt to bully the hospital into submission, but it refused to cave and continues to employ Sister Margaret. Now the bishop, in effect, is excommunicating the entire hospital — all because it saved a woman’s life....

Catholic hospitals like St. Joseph’s that are evicted by the church continue to operate largely as before. The main consequence is that Mass can no longer be said in the hospital chapel. Thomas C. Fox, the editor of National Catholic Reporter, noted regretfully that a hospital with deep Catholic roots like St. Joseph’s now cannot celebrate Mass, while airport chapels can. Mr. Fox added: “Olmsted’s moral certitude is lifeless, leaving no place for compassionate Christianity.”

....To me, this battle illuminates two rival religious approaches, within the Catholic church and any spiritual tradition. One approach focuses upon dogma, sanctity, rules and the punishment of sinners. The other exalts compassion for the needy and mercy for sinners (emphasis mine...the next phrase is where Kristoff goes 'off the reservation' so to speak.) — and, perhaps, above all, inclusiveness....

....With the Vatican seemingly as deaf and remote as it was in 1517, some Catholics at the grass roots are pushing to recover their faith. Jamie L. Manson, the same columnist for National Catholic Reporter who proclaimed that Jesus had been “evicted,” also argued powerfully that many ordinary Catholics have reached a breaking point and that St. Joseph’s heralds a new vision of Catholicism: “Though they will be denied the opportunity to celebrate the Eucharist, the Eucharist will rise out of St. Joseph’s every time the sick are healed, the frightened are comforted, the lonely are visited, the weak are fed, and vigil is kept over the dying.” "
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« Reply #60 on: January 27, 2011, 03:22:47 PM »

The poor, dead horse is looking rather mangy. All the beatings it has received have caused split hairs.

Well why don't you write and tell Father Gregory and Father Hans Jacobse who also must have thought the article had sufficient merit to have Father Gregory do a reprise of his first article.

You might want to mute the discussion though, eh?  

You fit right into what Father Gregory has said about Orthodox laity and clergy.

M.

I only skimmed the article.  I was looking for Church references.  I did not find any.  I only found talk about secular politicians.  Where there any Church statements approving abortion in the article?


Mary, my nose is seriously out of joint!   Angry

You created this thread FOR ME !!  You have even put my name in the Subject line!!    You gave me an article in the OP which you wanted me to consider.

Now that I have asked you questions about the article you are ignoring my questions 100% and refusing to interact with me.

What is the problem?  Why the discourtesy?

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« Reply #61 on: January 27, 2011, 03:32:07 PM »

Once again, the dead horse has been trotted out for its annual beating. Here is the clear and unambiguous teaching of the Orthodox Church as succinctly stated by Fr. Stanley Harakas. http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101

The Orthodox Church has a definite, formal and intended attitude toward abortion. It condemns all procedures purporting to abort the embryo or fetus, whether by surgical or chemical means. The Orthodox Church brands abortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce to abortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die. Decisions of the Supreme Court and State legislatures by which abortion, with or without restrictions, is allowed should be viewed by practicing Christians as an affront to their beliefs in the sanctity of life.

This is not Catholic teaching.  I know you are not suggesting that it is.  However when Catholics point this out to Orthodox believers, somehow we are being insulting.

Orthodoxy formally makes exceptions for something which the Catholic Church makes no exceptions and does so in such a way that it leaves the message with the Orthodox believer that it is all right to choose to kill the in-utero child, under certain circumstances.

What the Catholic Church does say is that in those EXTREMELY RARE MEDICAL CIRCUMSTANCES where it is A CLEAR CHOICE....most of the time the choice is not at all that clear....if the effort to save the mother results in the death of the child then there has been no sin...BUT IF...the choice is made to kill the child to save the mother then there has been a murder committed.   Meaning that you just cannot go in and abort the baby and hope to save the mother once the baby is out of the way, which is what happens in fact in most of those instances.

What we must do is try everything humanly possible to save both.

So again, when we talk about joining together to present moral teaching in the world...It cannot be done because we do not teach the same thing.


On the contrary, dear ElijahMaria; you do not have to be lawyers or to resort to lawyer like verbiage to agree on this issue. We only need to agree on the principles here and we do agree so substantially that the difference that you cite is really meaningless. (OK, I'll give you that your verbiage is more precise but our principles are the same). So, the problem is again, application. Both of our churches have seen many laypersons in elected positions vote for pro-abortion legislation with nary a public rebuke from their spiritual fathers. Is this not a true scandal? Both of our churches are rife with clergy who are afraid to teach the Church's anti-abortion teachings because they fear they will alienate some (many?) of their parishioners. Is this not a tragic shortcoming? Against these, why are we quibbling about formulations of positions?

Talk about a timely article, from today's New York Times OpEd is a piece by Nicholas Kristoff regarding the dispute between a Latin Bishop and a regional Catholic hospital. I should note that Kristoff's father's family is Lemko so I am assuming that he has some familiarity with Eastern Christianity and its approach to difficult moral issues. I don't know that particulars of the case in question but I think that the piece is worth reading in the context of the ongoing discussion on this thread. I think that Kristoff is, in the end, espousing a position that is not acceptable to either Orthodox or Roman Catholics if taken to its logical extension, but I think that, if we take the hospital's position at face value, the Orthodox response to the particular, specific case MAY have been approached differently. In any event, it provides food for thought. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/27/opinion/27kristof.html?hp

"....The hospital’s offense? It had terminated a pregnancy to save the life of the mother. The hospital says the 27-year-old woman, a mother of four children, would almost certainly have died otherwise....

.....Bishop Olmsted initially excommunicated a nun, Sister Margaret McBride, who had been on the hospital’s ethics committee and had approved of the decision. That seems to have been a failed attempt to bully the hospital into submission, but it refused to cave and continues to employ Sister Margaret. Now the bishop, in effect, is excommunicating the entire hospital — all because it saved a woman’s life....

Catholic hospitals like St. Joseph’s that are evicted by the church continue to operate largely as before. The main consequence is that Mass can no longer be said in the hospital chapel. Thomas C. Fox, the editor of National Catholic Reporter, noted regretfully that a hospital with deep Catholic roots like St. Joseph’s now cannot celebrate Mass, while airport chapels can. Mr. Fox added: “Olmsted’s moral certitude is lifeless, leaving no place for compassionate Christianity.”

....To me, this battle illuminates two rival religious approaches, within the Catholic church and any spiritual tradition. One approach focuses upon dogma, sanctity, rules and the punishment of sinners. The other exalts compassion for the needy and mercy for sinners (emphasis mine...the next phrase is where Kristoff goes 'off the reservation' so to speak.) — and, perhaps, above all, inclusiveness....

....With the Vatican seemingly as deaf and remote as it was in 1517, some Catholics at the grass roots are pushing to recover their faith. Jamie L. Manson, the same columnist for National Catholic Reporter who proclaimed that Jesus had been “evicted,” also argued powerfully that many ordinary Catholics have reached a breaking point and that St. Joseph’s heralds a new vision of Catholicism: “Though they will be denied the opportunity to celebrate the Eucharist, the Eucharist will rise out of St. Joseph’s every time the sick are healed, the frightened are comforted, the lonely are visited, the weak are fed, and vigil is kept over the dying.” "


I think that the line "almost certain to have died otherwise..." should be considered, kindly, as hyperbole.   My daughter bore five boys to term with both pregnancy induced hyperglycemia and hypertension.  The risks to her were high but she found a good crisis pregnancy gyn and carried on with each pregnancy as they came to her. 

It is never clear in these circumstances that the mother will indeed die from the hypertension before she brings the pregnancy to term...and because it is not ever truly clear...then this kind of hypertension is not grounds for aborting...particularly a late term abortion as this one clearly would have been.

I think it is important that Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church present the same message to the world concerning abortion precisely because of these kinds of situations presented in this wildly inflammatory article.

Mary
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« Reply #62 on: January 27, 2011, 04:10:38 PM »


Thank God your daughter and grandkids are all fine.

However, does anyone on this forum know exactly the health situation of the woman in the article?  Maybe she was suffering from many various conditions at once.  I didn't read anywhere an entire medical history of her.  So, who's to say?

Furthermore, I am finding this whole thread to be offensive as it seems to focus on one forum member.  Why?  Why are we picking on Fr. Ambrose in particular?  Why not just have a generic thread concerning abortion, if that is the true goal here?  Or is the goal to raise Fr. Ambrose's blood pressure?

As for the Orthodox stance on abortion, why is there even a question?  Orthodoxy has always taught that killing is sinful, in any form.  Nowhere has the Orthodox Church given the green light to abort the unborn.

However, the Church also has this thing called economia.  It realizes that each situation is different, and requires the personal "touch".  Nothing is as cut and dry as you seem to wish it were.

Men are not allowed to wear hats in church.  However, via economia the other day, a man came into the church wearing a hat.  While most people jumped to judge him, and even reached to pull off his hat, because apparently they thought his arms couldn't reach it themselves....it turned out that the man had surgery, and his skull was deformed.  He was hiding his deformity.

What if you are falling off a cliff and grab on to a branch to hold on.  Someone grabs your hand, as they too are falling.  You are holding yourself with one hand, and the other person with the other.  You can't hold on much longer, and your hand begins to lose it's grip on that branch, which is also starting to break under the weight of two people.  To save yourself you let the person go, and grab on to the branch with both hands and get pulled to safety.  Are you condemned for killing the other person?  While blessed is he who gives his life for another, is he who doesn't condemned?

The Church says NO abortion.  If the woman aborts her child it is still none of our business...and we are not to judge her.  Help her before she aborts, give her options...but, who are you to stand in judgment of anyone, for any reason?   Don't support an error, but, work to fix it.

Seriously. 

How often do we fall short of Church dogma?  How often do we fast exactly as we should, pray as often as we should, give as much as we should, be kind and loving, and forgiving as much as we should?

The Church teaches one thing...but, we as humans fall short.  It's not the Church that falls short, it's her adherents.  So...everyone stop picking on Orthodoxy. 

Now, I suggest that we all look at our own "perfect" selves before we continue throwing mud at everyone around us.

Take a step back and act like Christians.

Honestly.

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« Reply #63 on: January 27, 2011, 04:28:54 PM »

I just posted the following on the "Christian News" and would appreciate your input in the context of Orthodox-Catholic diologue, particularly regarding the operationalization of our respective teachings regarding abortion, beyond the confessional.

"I do not have any other "official" accounts but the one from OCA (http://www.oca.org/news/2392). It seems that the participants in this year's march included only OCA hierarchs and priests:

"Joining Metropolitan Jonah in leading the Orthodox Christian marchers were His Grace, Bishop Tikhon of Philadelphia and Eastern Pennsylvania; His Grace, Bishop Michael of New York and New Jersey; His Grace, Bishop Melchisedek of Pittsburgh and Western Pennsylvania; Archimandrite Matthias, Bishop-Elect of Chicago and the Midwest; faculty and students from Saint Tikhon's Seminary, South Canaan, PA and Saint Vladimir's Seminary, Crestwood, NY; and Orthodox Christian clergy and faithful from the east coast and beyond."

My question, in light of a separate discussion on our teachings about abortion, is why is this so? It cannot be that other hierarchs are loath to participate in public marches. How can we Orthodox not show solidarity on an issue that we all agree on? Indeed, the lack of priests from other than OCA seems to indicate that their bishops have indicated that their participation is not desired. I really hope that I am wrong about this."

Your claim regarding the OCA's exclusivity is not true. I posted this link here yesterday. http://www.acrod.org/news/releases/2011-march In prior years when his health was robust, Metropolitan Nicholas was a regular fixture at the March with the prior Metropolitans of the OCA. Many busloads of faithful from ACROD have attended this event annually.

And, as I did on the other thread, I praise God and ACROD. Any others from other jurisdictions, beside Father Aris (GOA) in Sacramento?
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« Reply #64 on: January 27, 2011, 06:12:03 PM »

I think the real problem here is judging each other's Church too harshly based on where they stand on those rare, borderline, "hard cases" where there really is a high risk to the mother.  Thanks be to God (and science!) that those cases are now the exception and not the rule!

However, it seems to me that where both Churches DO agree that the run-of-the-mill abortion performed most often today - that of a healthy fetus inside a healthy mother who simply does not want to have a child - is the real scandal and the real issue.  We may continue to disagree about the more complicated cases, but those are not the ones that constitute MOST of the abortions perdormed in the U.S. today.
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« Reply #65 on: January 27, 2011, 06:34:54 PM »

I think the real problem here is judging each other's Church too harshly based on where they stand on those rare, borderline, "hard cases" where there really is a high risk to the mother.  Thanks be to God (and science!) that those cases are now the exception and not the rule!

However, it seems to me that where both Churches DO agree that the run-of-the-mill abortion performed most often today - that of a healthy fetus inside a healthy mother who simply does not want to have a child - is the real scandal and the real issue.  We may continue to disagree about the more complicated cases, but those are not the ones that constitute MOST of the abortions perdormed in the U.S. today.

It is precisely in how we approach and recommend on the hard cases that we demonstrate our the absoluteness of the evil of abortion.  If the line is not drawn hard, it will never be drawn at all. 

Abortion is evil no matter what or who or why...or when.

It must be expressed in those most steadfast terms or the loopholes become floodgates.

If Orthodoxy and the Catholic Church do not stand precisely together on the hard cases, then the easy road will win.  It always does in this fallen world.

M.
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« Reply #66 on: January 27, 2011, 06:35:13 PM »

The question Liz is never the sinfulness of the woman involved in any abortion.  The question here in particular is the article that challenges, first Orthodox laity and clergy, and then the rest of us by extension to take another look at who we are and how we behave and think...just as you are doing here.

I have addressed this thread to Father Ambrose from New Zealand simply because he seems to delight in naming me as an avowed enemy of Orthodoxy in that I say that Orthodox clergy and bishops have not been entirely clear in their teaching on abortion.  I believe this article supports my observations.

But it is, apparently, better to shoot the messenger.  Well I am shot.  Who will Father Ambrose shoot next?   Father Gregory?....I don't think so.  No.  He will continue to rail against me or any other Catholic who offers the same message.  Brilliant.
 
M.


Thank God your daughter and grandkids are all fine.

However, does anyone on this forum know exactly the health situation of the woman in the article?  Maybe she was suffering from many various conditions at once.  I didn't read anywhere an entire medical history of her.  So, who's to say?

Furthermore, I am finding this whole thread to be offensive as it seems to focus on one forum member.  Why?  Why are we picking on Fr. Ambrose in particular?  Why not just have a generic thread concerning abortion, if that is the true goal here?  Or is the goal to raise Fr. Ambrose's blood pressure?

As for the Orthodox stance on abortion, why is there even a question?  Orthodoxy has always taught that killing is sinful, in any form.  Nowhere has the Orthodox Church given the green light to abort the unborn.

However, the Church also has this thing called economia.  It realizes that each situation is different, and requires the personal "touch".  Nothing is as cut and dry as you seem to wish it were.

Men are not allowed to wear hats in church.  However, via economia the other day, a man came into the church wearing a hat.  While most people jumped to judge him, and even reached to pull off his hat, because apparently they thought his arms couldn't reach it themselves....it turned out that the man had surgery, and his skull was deformed.  He was hiding his deformity.

What if you are falling off a cliff and grab on to a branch to hold on.  Someone grabs your hand, as they too are falling.  You are holding yourself with one hand, and the other person with the other.  You can't hold on much longer, and your hand begins to lose it's grip on that branch, which is also starting to break under the weight of two people.  To save yourself you let the person go, and grab on to the branch with both hands and get pulled to safety.  Are you condemned for killing the other person?  While blessed is he who gives his life for another, is he who doesn't condemned?

The Church says NO abortion.  If the woman aborts her child it is still none of our business...and we are not to judge her.  Help her before she aborts, give her options...but, who are you to stand in judgment of anyone, for any reason?   Don't support an error, but, work to fix it.

Seriously. 

How often do we fall short of Church dogma?  How often do we fast exactly as we should, pray as often as we should, give as much as we should, be kind and loving, and forgiving as much as we should?

The Church teaches one thing...but, we as humans fall short.  It's not the Church that falls short, it's her adherents.  So...everyone stop picking on Orthodoxy. 

Now, I suggest that we all look at our own "perfect" selves before we continue throwing mud at everyone around us.

Take a step back and act like Christians.

Honestly.


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« Reply #67 on: January 28, 2011, 05:10:26 PM »

The question Liz is never the sinfulness of the woman involved in any abortion.  The question here in particular is the article that challenges, first Orthodox laity and clergy, and then the rest of us by extension to take another look at who we are and how we behave and think...just as you are doing here.

I have addressed this thread to Father Ambrose from New Zealand simply because he seems to delight in naming me as an avowed enemy of Orthodoxy in that I say that Orthodox clergy and bishops have not been entirely clear in their teaching on abortion.  I believe this article supports my observations.

But it is, apparently, better to shoot the messenger.  Well I am shot.  Who will Father Ambrose shoot next?   Father Gregory?....I don't think so.  No.  He will continue to rail against me or any other Catholic who offers the same message.  Brilliant.
 
M.


From the article in question:  "According to the PEW survey, the majority of Orthodox laity agree that abortion and gay marriage should be legal. "
______________________________________________________________________

I would like to know which Orthodox laity were polled.  I have yet to meet an Orthodox Christian, with even a rudimentary understanding of their Faith, to hold the opinion that either of these two acts should be legalized. 

Furthermore, I just don't understand how you can state that Orthodox clergy and bishops are not entirely clear in their teachings on abortion.  I've have yet to come across a single priest who has condoned abortion as a norm.

Once again, the Church teaches one thing, yet her adherents will do what they will.  The shepherds cannot always control what their flocks do.  As parents, you teach your kids right from wrong, then you let them go free into the world, hoping and praying that they do right.  When they fall short of the mark and do wrong, even though you do not support their wrong-doing, you still love them, and once again embrace them and try to pick them up and put them back on the correct path.

Any sin may be forgiven, and it is the Church's stance to be understanding, however, do not mistake forgiveness with tolerance and permissibility. 

The Church (and her clergy/hierarchs) say NO to abortion and gay marriage.  They always have and they always will.

Mary, I truly am sorry that you feel "attacked".  This forum is open to discussion and hopefully folks can discuss without personally attacking each other.


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« Reply #68 on: January 28, 2011, 06:48:18 PM »

The question Liz is never the sinfulness of the woman involved in any abortion.  The question here in particular is the article that challenges, first Orthodox laity and clergy, and then the rest of us by extension to take another look at who we are and how we behave and think...just as you are doing here.

I have addressed this thread to Father Ambrose from New Zealand simply because he seems to delight in naming me as an avowed enemy of Orthodoxy in that I say that Orthodox clergy and bishops have not been entirely clear in their teaching on abortion.  I believe this article supports my observations.

But it is, apparently, better to shoot the messenger.  Well I am shot.  Who will Father Ambrose shoot next?   Father Gregory?....I don't think so.  No.  He will continue to rail against me or any other Catholic who offers the same message.  Brilliant.
 
M.


From the article in question:  "According to the PEW survey, the majority of Orthodox laity agree that abortion and gay marriage should be legal. "
______________________________________________________________________

I would like to know which Orthodox laity were polled.  I have yet to meet an Orthodox Christian, with even a rudimentary understanding of their Faith, to hold the opinion that either of these two acts should be legalized. 

Furthermore, I just don't understand how you can state that Orthodox clergy and bishops are not entirely clear in their teachings on abortion.  I've have yet to come across a single priest who has condoned abortion as a norm.

Once again, the Church teaches one thing, yet her adherents will do what they will.  The shepherds cannot always control what their flocks do.  As parents, you teach your kids right from wrong, then you let them go free into the world, hoping and praying that they do right.  When they fall short of the mark and do wrong, even though you do not support their wrong-doing, you still love them, and once again embrace them and try to pick them up and put them back on the correct path.

Any sin may be forgiven, and it is the Church's stance to be understanding, however, do not mistake forgiveness with tolerance and permissibility. 

The Church (and her clergy/hierarchs) say NO to abortion and gay marriage.  They always have and they always will.

Mary, I truly am sorry that you feel "attacked".  This forum is open to discussion and hopefully folks can discuss without personally attacking each other.

Sorry you confused a rhetorical device with my emotional or psychological state...Seems to me that one should not get too invested in these kinds of discussions..no? 

Figure of speech "shoot the messenger" rather than dealing with the message.

Your experiences are not quite the same as mine and clearly there is at least one Orthodox priest who also seems to think there's more of a problem than you are letting on here.

To my way of thinking, Orthodoxy has a bit more of a difficult time dealing with the subject because there is no recognizably universal statement that condemns abortion under any and all circumstances as there is in the Catholic Church. 

What individuals do or think is somewhat separate from whether or not there's a clear statement of right and wrong...eh?

I mean we don't throw out the Decalogue simply because there are sinners...right?

Mary
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« Reply #69 on: January 28, 2011, 06:50:34 PM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
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« Reply #70 on: January 28, 2011, 06:57:19 PM »

The UOC Calendar put out every year states that abortion is a "grievous sin."

Maybe this can put it to rest:

http://www.aoiusa.org/2009/09/orthodox-church-supreme-court-brief-on-roe-v-wade/

Notice:

5. This brief is filed with the blessings of: The American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Diocese: His Grace, Bishop Nicholas; V. Rev. Frank P. Miloro, Dean of Christ the Savior Orthodox Theological Seminary; The Anthiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America: His Eminence, Most Rev. Metropolitan Philip; Rt. Rev. Antun, Auxiliary Bishop; V. Rev. Peter E. Gillquist, Chairman of the Council of Coordinators, Antiochian Evangelical Orthodox Mission, and member, Worship and Evangelization Committee, National Council of Churches; V. Rev. Jack N. Sparks, Dean of St. Athanasius College; The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North and South America: Rt. Rev. Maximos, Bishop of Pittsburgh; Rev. Dr. Stanley S. Harakas, Archbishop Iakovos Professor of Orthodox Theology and Christian Ethics, Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology; Rev. Dr. Theodore Stylianopoulos, Professor of New Testament and Orthodox Spirituality, Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology, and member of the Central Committee of the World Council of Churches; Rev. Fr. George A. Alexson, Secretary-Treasurer of the Greater Washington Orthodox Clergy Council, and Pastor, St. Katherine’s Greek Orthodox Church of Northern Virginia; The Orthodox Church in America: His Beatitude Theodosius, Archbishop of Washington, Metropolitan of All America and Canada; Rt. Rev. Peter, Bishop of New York and New Jersey; Rt. Rev. Dimitri, Bishop of Dallas and the South; Rt. Rev. Herman, Bishop of Philadelphia and Eastern Pennsylvania; Rt. Rev. Gregory, Bishop of Sitka and Alaska; Rt. Rev. Nathaniel, Bishop of Detroit and the Romanian Episcopate; Rt. Rev. Job, Bishop of Hartford and New England; Rt. Rev. Tikhon, Bishop of San Francisco; Rt. Rev. Mark, Acting Bishop of Chicago and the Midwest; V. Rev. Leonid Kishkovsky, Secretary of External and Ecumenical Affairs, and President-Elect of the National Council of Churches; V. Rev. John Meyendorff, Dean of St. Vladimir’s Orthodox Theological Seminary, and Professor of Church History and Patristics; V. Rev. Daniel K. Donlick, Dean of St. Tikhon’s Orthodox Theological Seminary; V. Rev. Joseph P. Kreta, Dean of St. Herman’s Orthodox Theological Seminary; V. Rev. Thomas Hopko, Associate Professor of Dogmatic Theology, St. Vladimir’s Orthodox Theological Seminary, and member, Faith and Order Commission of the World Council of Churches; V. Rev. John Kowalczyk, Adjunct Professor of Religious Education and the Christian Family, St. Tikhon’s Orthodox Theological Seminary, and Pro-Life Coordinator of the Diocese of Eastern Pennsylvania; V. Rev. Vladimir Borichevsky, Professor of Moral and Pastoral Theology, St. Tikhon’s Orthodox Theological Seminary; Rev. Fr. Alexander F.C. Webster, Senior Research Associate, Ethics and Public Policy Center, Washington, D.C. (for identification only); Holy Transfiguration Orthodox Monastery, Elwood City, Pennsylvania; Holy Dormition Orthodox Monastery, Rives Eaton, Michigan; The Russian Orthodox Church in Exile: His Eminence, Most Rev. Vitaly, Metropolitan of New York and Eastern America, First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church in Exile; Most Rev. Anthony, Archbishop of Los Angeles and Southern California; Most Rev. Antony, Archbishop of San Francisco and Western America; Most Rev. Laurus, Archbishop of Syracuse and Holy Trinity Monastery, Rector of Holy Trinity Orthodox Seminary, and Abbot of Holy Trinity Orthodox Monastery, Jordanville, New York; Rt. Rev. Alypy, Bishop of Chicago, Detroit, and Midwest America; Rt. Rev. Hilarion, Bishop of Manhattan; Rt. Rev. Daniel, Bishop of Erie and Protector of the Old Rite; Rev. Fr. Alexey Young, Editor of ‘Orthodox America’; Rev. Fr. Gregory Williams, Editor of ‘Living Orthodoxy’; The Serbian Orthodox Church in the United States and Canada: His Grace, Bishop Christopher; The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of America and Canada: His Grace, Bishop Vsevolod.

In addition, this brief is endorsed by: Orthodox Christians for Life—John Protopapas, Co-Founder and Chairman; Rev. Fr. Edward Pehanich, Co-Founder and Spiritual Advisor, and Diocesean Representative for the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Diocese; Valerie Protopapas, Educational Director, and Sanctity of Life Director for the Diocese of New York and New Jersey (OCA); and V. Rev. Gordon T. Walker, liaison to the Antiochian Evangelical Orthodox Mission. This brief is also endorsed by: Dr. Lewis J. Patsavos, Professor of Canon Law, and Dr. John Chirban, Professor of Psychology and Counseling, Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology; Dr. John Erickson, Professor of Canon law and Church History, St. Vladimir’s Orthodox Theological Seminary; the Orthodox Christian Association of Medicine, Psychology, and Religion; the Orthodox Brotherhood of the United States; the National Association of Romanian Orthodox Women in America; and American Romanian Orthodox Youth.

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« Reply #71 on: January 28, 2011, 07:38:58 PM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.
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« Reply #72 on: January 28, 2011, 07:56:24 PM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.

So you seem to have problems with reading in English. The 91st canon of Council in Trullo was quoted TWICE here and that Council canons were reconfirmed by the VII Ecumenical Council. What more do you need?

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« Reply #73 on: January 28, 2011, 08:16:20 PM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.
LOL. Even your ecclesiatical organization got along without a magisterium for nearly a millenium before the Vatican created it in the 19th century.
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« Reply #74 on: January 28, 2011, 08:21:42 PM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.
LOL. Even your ecclesiatical organization got along without a magisterium for nearly a millenium before the Vatican created it in the 19th century.
The teaching authority of the Church was not created in the 19th century. It was established in 33 A.D.
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« Reply #75 on: January 28, 2011, 09:06:03 PM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.

LOL. Even your ecclesiatical organization got along without a magisterium for nearly a millenium before the Vatican created it in the 19th century.
The teaching authority of the Church was not created in the 19th century. It was established in 33 A.D.
Produce any discussion or description of the instition of your "magisterium" before 1846.


Btw, each Orthodox Church has official statements on this issue, statements on their official websites, etc.  Anyone find anything in support of abortion anywhere there?
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« Reply #76 on: January 28, 2011, 09:31:55 PM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.


There is a clear teaching on the subject. Abortion is murder. How you guys haven't figured that out yet is beyond me.  Huh

Oh and by the way, that same survey shows that 75% of Catholics believe abortion should be legal in at least some cases. So how's that "magisterium" working out for ya?  Wink
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« Reply #77 on: January 28, 2011, 09:41:21 PM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.

Utter nonsense. The teaching of the Orthodox Church is clear, unambiguous and universal on this issue.
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« Reply #78 on: January 28, 2011, 09:54:47 PM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.
So you seem to have problems with reading in English. The 91st canon of Council in Trullo was quoted TWICE here and that Council canons were reconfirmed by the VII Ecumenical Council. What more do you need?

Right.  Orthodox Canon law is unanimous on the subject.   For example, the Rudder states in its commentary on Apostolic Canon 66:

"Among willful murders are those committed by those who give drugs to pregnant women in order to kill the embryos; and likewise those who willfully take such drugs as is decreed by the Sixth Council in its 91st canon and by the Council of Ancyra in its 21st canon and by St. Basil according to his 2nd and 8th canons. But more charitably they are censured and penanced not for life but for a term of ten years by both this same canon 21 of the Council of Ancyra and canon 2 of St. Basil."
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« Reply #79 on: January 28, 2011, 09:55:35 PM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.

Utter nonsense. The teaching of the Orthodox Church is clear, unambiguous and universal on this issue.


Link

Link

Link

Link


Statements from four jurisdiction here in the U.S; Goarch, OCA, Antiochian and ACROD. I'm not that smart and it took me five minutes to find these (these newfangled search engines are amazing).  Cool
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« Reply #80 on: January 29, 2011, 12:39:40 AM »

I have addressed this thread to Father Ambrose from New Zealand simply because he seems to delight in naming me as an avowed enemy of Orthodoxy in that I say that Orthodox clergy and bishops have not been entirely clear in their teaching on abortion.  I believe this article supports my observations.


Such posturing!  Angry  Apparently this thread is NOT for Father Ambrose but simply a lowdown polemical attack by Mary.  Angry

Father Ambrose read the article which Mary wanted him to (in the OP.)

He had a question for Mary (message 60) which so far she hasn't had the decency to reply to.

Pshaw!  This is just a polemical showcase created by Mary to, once again, have a bash at Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #81 on: January 29, 2011, 05:08:31 AM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.
LOL. Even your ecclesiatical organization got along without a magisterium for nearly a millenium before the Vatican created it in the 19th century.
The teaching authority of the Church was not created in the 19th century. It was established in 33 A.D.

Wyatt....

This stuff that Isa is "teaching" isn't really Orthodox at all, nor is it original.  It's protestant and sectarian in origin...

Here's a good example of it all under one roof:

http://www.mgrfoundation.org/PapDoc-IntroP.html
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« Reply #82 on: January 29, 2011, 05:08:31 AM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.

Utter nonsense. The teaching of the Orthodox Church is clear, unambiguous and universal on this issue.

Serious question:  To keep this in line with the original post, are you taking issue with Father Gregory's article, or are you making a simple assertion here?
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« Reply #83 on: January 29, 2011, 05:08:31 AM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.

Utter nonsense. The teaching of the Orthodox Church is clear, unambiguous and universal on this issue.


Link

Link

Link

Link


Statements from four jurisdiction here in the U.S; Goarch, OCA, Antiochian and ACROD. I'm not that smart and it took me five minutes to find these (these newfangled search engines are amazing).  Cool

With respect to one of your LINKs, Father Stanley is one of the FIRST to make the choice to abort contingent upon circumstance.  His teachings are right in line with those un-retracted comments on the part of the Ecumenical Patriarch.  That is made very clear in his book on moral theology.

The ACROD position against abortion is the strongest as far as I am concerned and the one closest to the position taught by the Catholic Church.

The others in that LINK list could go either way...be as uncompromising as ACROD or as relativist as the Greek Orthodox Church.

M.
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« Reply #84 on: January 29, 2011, 05:09:46 AM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.

LOL. Even your ecclesiatical organization got along without a magisterium for nearly a millenium before the Vatican created it in the 19th century.
The teaching authority of the Church was not created in the 19th century. It was established in 33 A.D.
Produce any discussion or description of the instition of your "magisterium" before 1846.


Btw, each Orthodox Church has official statements on this issue, statements on their official websites, etc.  Anyone find anything in support of abortion anywhere there?
Proves nothing. There was a time when the word Trinity did not exist, but the truth behind the word always did.
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« Reply #85 on: January 29, 2011, 05:14:36 AM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.

Utter nonsense. The teaching of the Orthodox Church is clear, unambiguous and universal on this issue.

Serious question:  To keep this in line with the original post, are you taking issue with Father Gregory's article, or are you making a simple assertion here?

We are answering your question: DP the Orthodox Church has an official teaching on abortion? The answer has nothing in common with that text.
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« Reply #86 on: January 29, 2011, 05:26:37 AM »

Elijahmaria's logic: Orthodox Bishops do not say every twenty minute necrophilia is immoral => the Orthodox Church supports necrophilia.

Illogical a bit, isn't it?
One doesn't need a statement every twenty minutes, but it would be nice if there was a clear universal teaching on the subject. That will never happen though as long as your Church continues to exist sans-Magisterium.

Utter nonsense. The teaching of the Orthodox Church is clear, unambiguous and universal on this issue.

Serious question:  To keep this in line with the original post, are you taking issue with Father Gregory's article, or are you making a simple assertion here?

Is it not clear enough in the article that there is not one citation from the Orthodox Church, patriarch, bishop, priest, monk or nun, in support of abortion.
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« Reply #87 on: January 29, 2011, 05:35:55 AM »


-With respect to one of your LINKs, Father Stanley is one of the FIRST to make the choice to abort contingent upon circumstance.  His teachings are right in line with those un-retracted comments on the part of the Ecumenical Patriarch.  That is made very clear in his book on moral theology.



Please expose your sources.  Is this more gossip from your anonymous circle of Orthodox intellectuals?

Here is what Fr Stanley Harakas says

http://orthodoxcounselor.com/ortho_view_child_abuse_Harakas.htm

Abortion and Exposure
"With this background, it becomes evident why very early in its history the Church sought to protect children from abuses of all kinds. Many of those early concerns are still pertinent today, and unfortunately, some new concerns have been added. The war against the child begins with abortion. What the Apologist Aristides said in the 2nd Century continues to be true today: "it is not permitted to destroy the fetus while it is still in the womb. To prevent birth is to be beforehand with murder; and it makes no difference whether one kills a life already born, or suppresses it at birth. He is already a man who is about to be one; and every fruit already lives in its seed." (Apology IX, 6) Orthodox Christians will oppose abortion in principle and practice and will struggle to change the immoral legalization of abortion, as a legalization of murder."
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« Reply #88 on: January 29, 2011, 10:14:50 AM »

Serious question:  To keep this in line with the original post, are you taking issue with Father Gregory's article, or are you making a simple assertion here?

Cool!  Another dead horse to beat!

Mary, it seems to me (and honestly, no offense intended) that you are simply looking for a "fight".  It has been stated, and repeated that the article itself has not mentioned any Orthodox sources for their information.  Who was interviewed?  Who was polled?

Secondly, it has been stated again and again, and sources have been provided to support the statement that the Orthodox Church does not support either abortion or homosexuality.

I am thinking you are simply not willing to concede that your initial post and opinion of Orthodoxy is marred.

You seem to willfully ignore all the information that has been provided and repeat your erred judgmental statements concerning the True Church of Christ.

There is no point for any further discussion, because this thread has morphed into a place for RC's to vent their dislike of Orthodoxy and fuel their vain attempts to tarnish it.

It won't work.


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« Reply #89 on: January 29, 2011, 10:35:04 AM »

Seriously, what does the article say?  That a majority of Orthodox Christians in America support abortion despite the clear teachings of the Church.  If the Orthodox Church didn't teach quite clearly that abortion was wrong there would be no reason for the article at all.  And I must say that the crowing Roman Catholic triumphalism on this thread is really out of place, when a majority of Roman Catholics in America also support the same thing, despite very clear pronouncements coming from the Pope.  This isn't a question of magesterium versus collegiality, it's a question of fallen and rebellious human beings rejecting what the Church has to say in support of their own "wisdom".  Houses need to be cleaned, surely, but forgive us if we don't invite you in to run the maid service when your own house has been declared a toxic dumping site.
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« Reply #90 on: January 29, 2011, 10:49:54 AM »

Seriously, what does the article say?  That a majority of Orthodox Christians in America support abortion despite the clear teachings of the Church.  If the Orthodox Church didn't teach quite clearly that abortion was wrong there would be no reason for the article at all.  And I must say that the crowing Roman Catholic triumphalism on this thread is really out of place, when a majority of Roman Catholics in America also support the same thing, despite very clear pronouncements coming from the Pope.  This isn't a question of magesterium versus collegiality, it's a question of fallen and rebellious human beings rejecting what the Church has to say in support of their own "wisdom".  Houses need to be cleaned, surely, but forgive us if we don't invite you in to run the maid service when your own house has been declared a toxic dumping site.

Precisely! It was almost Alice in Wonderland, both sides arguing whether or not our teachings are clear, when the article did not suggest in any way, shape or form that clarity of teaching was an issue. How in the world do we get sidetracked so easily? In any case, for those who apparently have not read the article (except for FormerReformer), here are the opening paragraphs (my emphasis):

"On a post on my blog Koinoia (“An Editorial: Orthodoxy & the Public Square“), I wrote that whether or not I like Frank Schaeffer’s politics or his moral theology, or whether or not his support of abortion and gay rights are compatible with the tradition of the Church, the reality is that he is well within the mainstream of current Orthodox opinion in America. According to the PEW survey, the majority of Orthodox laity agree that abortion and gay marriage should be legal.  It may surprise you, then, that the problem isn’t Schaeffer – it’s us; specifically, it’s the clergy.  For reasons that are not entirely clear to me, we clergy are not effectively communicating the moral tradition of the Church to the laity.  Or, if we are, the laity aren’t listening –- which would imply that the clergy are willing to tolerate the laity ignoring the Gospel.

We see the same prevalence of pro-choice, pro-gay marriage positions among Orthodox politicians.  This kind of a consistent pattern of belief does not just happen.  As in the Catholic Church, we see in the Orthodox Church evidence of a significant pastoral failing.  This appears to be more than just a widespread lack of sound moral education for the faithful.  It appears to be an embrace of, or at least resignation to, the influence of secularism in our parishes. "

It seems to me that we can argue whether the clergy is at fault for this state of affairs but we are not entitled to our own facts. The fact is that both Orthodox and Roman Catholic people (not teachings, dogma, encyclicals, and not any particular hierarch--except may the current EP) are either in favor of, or indifferent to, abortion. The fact is that the author tacitly acknowledges that there are no problems with the teachings of the church. Now, some like legalese and are Roman Catholic; others are not so enamored with legalese and may or may not be Roman Catholic. Who cares! However, there is no earthly justification for the way that some of us get on our hobby horses whenever such buttons are pushed. Myself included. May the Lord forgive my petty passions, emotions and anger.
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« Reply #91 on: January 29, 2011, 11:37:51 AM »

Definitely some over reacting here.  I find that curious.

In any event, the points I've been making are:

1. That is an insightful article written by Father Gregory and we all should pay heed to it.

2. That if the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholic Church are going to stand together against the intrinsic and heinous sin of abortion, then I think that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement that comes from the leadership, and not just from lay groups or individual jurisdictions that states as the Catholic Church states that abortion is wrong under ANY and ALL circumstances.  Otherwise we are not really presenting a united voice.

The best you've all been able to come up with so far is an attack on the messenger...figures.

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« Reply #92 on: January 29, 2011, 11:39:03 AM »

A canon from the ecumenical council isn't valid enough?
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« Reply #93 on: January 29, 2011, 11:55:29 AM »

I think that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement that comes from the leadership, and not just from ... individual jurisdictions

I don't understand the distinction you draw here. If a jurisdiction makes a statement, it is made by and under the authority of the leadership of that jurisdiction.
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« Reply #94 on: January 29, 2011, 12:16:06 PM »

Definitely some over reacting here.  I find that curious.

In any event, the points I've been making are:

1. That is an insightful article written by Father Gregory and we all should pay heed to it.

2. That if the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholic Church are going to stand together against the intrinsic and heinous sin of abortion, then I think that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement that comes from the leadership, and not just from lay groups or individual jurisdictions that states as the Catholic Church states that abortion is wrong under ANY and ALL circumstances.  Otherwise we are not really presenting a united voice.

The best you've all been able to come up with so far is an attack on the messenger...figures.
You mean the self appointed prophet.  We have specifc instructions of how to deal with false prophets.  Deuteronomy 13.

1. So you found something to fashion a gnat strainer out of. And we are supposed to stand in awe. Roll Eyes

2. The thought of your supreme pontiff that when he says "jump!" we should ask how high lays at the problem of doiing anything with you all: did your visible head make a plain statement that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement, or is this the veiled suggestion of his invisible minions?

Since we do not follow the artificial equation that the Vatican has made "barrier method=abortion," it is not going to be a united voice according to your criteria.

The individial Orthodox Churches speak for the Catholic Church on this issue.  The Vatican does not.
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« Reply #95 on: January 29, 2011, 12:22:18 PM »

I think that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement that comes from the leadership, and not just from ... individual jurisdictions

I don't understand the distinction you draw here. If a jurisdiction makes a statement, it is made by and under the authority of the leadership of that jurisdiction.

Right.  I see my lapse.  I was thinking in terms of a joint statement coming from all patriarchates and major metropolitan sees....That is was I was trying to indicate.  

You see, what I am looking at now are a variety of statements, some of which are uncompromising, others not so much and a couple of them non-committal with respect to banning abortion under ANY and ALL circumstances.  And it makes me think that it would be good to have one uni-vocal and unequivocal statement signed on to by all Patriarchs and Metropolitans.   In that way there would be less room for confusion...and I single document through which one can answer the concerns of the faithful and also one that is clear when confronting the secular world and governments.

All commandments are observed primarily in the breach, by sinners, but that does not mean that the commandments are suggestions or that they should be abandoned because nobody pays attention to them.

It's a matter then also of providing a fully united Catholic front against the secular world...if we are going to do any of that at all.

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« Reply #96 on: January 29, 2011, 12:23:02 PM »

Anyone else think this thread is ridonkulous?

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« Reply #97 on: January 29, 2011, 12:23:40 PM »

Right.  I see my lapse.  I was thinking in terms of a joint statement coming from all patriarchates and major metropolitan sees....That is was I was trying to indicate.  

We have already done. In 692.
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« Reply #98 on: January 29, 2011, 12:24:52 PM »

Definitely some over reacting here.  I find that curious.

In any event, the points I've been making are:

1. That is an insightful article written by Father Gregory and we all should pay heed to it.

2. That if the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholic Church are going to stand together against the intrinsic and heinous sin of abortion, then I think that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement that comes from the leadership, and not just from lay groups or individual jurisdictions that states as the Catholic Church states that abortion is wrong under ANY and ALL circumstances.  Otherwise we are not really presenting a united voice.

The best you've all been able to come up with so far is an attack on the messenger...figures.
You mean the self appointed prophet.  We have specifc instructions of how to deal with false prophets.  Deuteronomy 13.

1. So you found something to fashion a gnat strainer out of. And we are supposed to stand in awe. Roll Eyes

2. The thought of your supreme pontiff that when he says "jump!" we should ask how high lays at the problem of doiing anything with you all: did your visible head make a plain statement that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement, or is this the veiled suggestion of his invisible minions?

Since we do not follow the artificial equation that the Vatican has made "barrier method=abortion," it is not going to be a united voice according to your criteria.

The individial Orthodox Churches speak for the Catholic Church on this issue.  The Vatican does not.

The Catholic position is presented by the Catholic Church in union with the pope in Rome.  

The Orthodox Catholic position is not in line with the Catholic Church at the moment.  Quite right.  There may be movement in that direction....or not.  It depends on our hierarchs.

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« Reply #99 on: January 29, 2011, 12:27:16 PM »

Anyone else think this thread is ridonkulous?

In Christ,
Andrew

I think it has become unnecessarily contentious.
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« Reply #100 on: January 29, 2011, 12:43:47 PM »

I usually don't take offense to the comments coming from both sides on this thread. They may upset me, but I try not to dwell on them. However. the continued charge that our Orthodox Church somehow preaches an erroneous or inconsistent position regarding the act of abortion is a red herring which bears false witness against the true teachings of our Holy Church. I take comfort that I do not believe that such misplaced zeal on the part of a few misguided advocates in any way represents the actual belief and teachings of the Supreme Pontiff of that Church as regards the dogmatic position of our respective Churches. There may be different words used by us in our respective communions which to some appear as a wide ocean of difference, but, sadly,that has been the case throughout our mutual history on many (but not all) issues which divide us. Let us set these issues aside and pray for the souls of the unborn and the salvation of those who have chosen contrary to the teachings of The Church.
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« Reply #101 on: January 29, 2011, 01:24:47 PM »

I think that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement that comes from the leadership, and not just from ... individual jurisdictions

I don't understand the distinction you draw here. If a jurisdiction makes a statement, it is made by and under the authority of the leadership of that jurisdiction.

Right.  I see my lapse.  I was thinking in terms of a joint statement coming from all patriarchates and major metropolitan sees....That is was I was trying to indicate.  

You see, what I am looking at now are a variety of statements, some of which are uncompromising, others not so much and a couple of them non-committal with respect to banning abortion under ANY and ALL circumstances.  And it makes me think that it would be good to have one uni-vocal and unequivocal statement signed on to by all Patriarchs and Metropolitans.   In that way there would be less room for confusion...and I single document through which one can answer the concerns of the faithful and also one that is clear when confronting the secular world and governments.

All commandments are observed primarily in the breach, by sinners, but that does not mean that the commandments are suggestions or that they should be abandoned because nobody pays attention to them.

It's a matter then also of providing a fully united Catholic front against the secular world...if we are going to do any of that at all.

Yeah, we know where you are leading
Pastor Aeternus....For this reason it has always been necessary for every Church--that is to say the faithful throughout the world--to be in agreement with the Roman Church because of its more effective leadership. In consequence of being joined, as members to head, with that see, from which the rights of sacred communion flow to all, they will grow together into the structure of a single body....In this way, by unity with the Roman Pontiff in communion and in profession of the same faith , the Church of Christ becomes one flock under one Supreme Shepherd....This is the teaching of the Catholic truth, and no one can depart from it without endangering his faith and salvation....
but we'll stick to the straight and narrow path and not wander off with you down that crooked trail beyond the mountains.
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« Reply #102 on: January 29, 2011, 01:25:24 PM »

Anyone else think this thread is ridonkulous?

In Christ,
Andrew

I think it has become unnecessarily contentious.
Lying tends to cause that.
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« Reply #103 on: January 29, 2011, 01:37:36 PM »

Definitely some over reacting here.  I find that curious.

In any event, the points I've been making are:

1. That is an insightful article written by Father Gregory and we all should pay heed to it.

2. That if the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholic Church are going to stand together against the intrinsic and heinous sin of abortion, then I think that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement that comes from the leadership, and not just from lay groups or individual jurisdictions that states as the Catholic Church states that abortion is wrong under ANY and ALL circumstances.  Otherwise we are not really presenting a united voice.

The best you've all been able to come up with so far is an attack on the messenger...figures.
You mean the self appointed prophet.  We have specifc instructions of how to deal with false prophets.  Deuteronomy 13.

1. So you found something to fashion a gnat strainer out of. And we are supposed to stand in awe. Roll Eyes

2. The thought of your supreme pontiff that when he says "jump!" we should ask how high lays at the problem of doiing anything with you all: did your visible head make a plain statement that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement, or is this the veiled suggestion of his invisible minions?

Since we do not follow the artificial equation that the Vatican has made "barrier method=abortion," it is not going to be a united voice according to your criteria.

The individial Orthodox Churches speak for the Catholic Church on this issue.  The Vatican does not.

The Catholic position is presented by the Catholic Church in union with the pope in Rome.


The pope in the Vatican has ceased to confess the Orthodox Faith of SS. Peter and Paul, and as such speaks only for himself and those who submit to him as their supreme pontiff.  Only those in union with SS. Peter and Paul can present the Catholic position, such as St. Peter's successors

and the Popes


The Orthodox Catholic position is not in line with the Catholic Church at the moment.
That is a contradiction in terms.  On the Vatican "And faith unfaithful kept him falsely true."

Quite right.
Correct Ortho Dox "Right" "Faith"

There may be movement in that direction....or not.  It depends on our hierarchs.
Whenever you are ready to repent.
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« Reply #104 on: January 29, 2011, 03:14:28 PM »

Definitely some over reacting here.  I find that curious.

In any event, the points I've been making are:

1. That is an insightful article written by Father Gregory and we all should pay heed to it.

2. That if the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholic Church are going to stand together against the intrinsic and heinous sin of abortion, then I think that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement that comes from the leadership, and not just from lay groups or individual jurisdictions that states as the Catholic Church states that abortion is wrong under ANY and ALL circumstances.  Otherwise we are not really presenting a united voice.

The best you've all been able to come up with so far is an attack on the messenger...figures.
You mean the self appointed prophet.  We have specifc instructions of how to deal with false prophets.  Deuteronomy 13.

1. So you found something to fashion a gnat strainer out of. And we are supposed to stand in awe. Roll Eyes

2. The thought of your supreme pontiff that when he says "jump!" we should ask how high lays at the problem of doiing anything with you all: did your visible head make a plain statement that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement, or is this the veiled suggestion of his invisible minions?

Since we do not follow the artificial equation that the Vatican has made "barrier method=abortion," it is not going to be a united voice according to your criteria.

The individial Orthodox Churches speak for the Catholic Church on this issue.  The Vatican does not.

The Catholic position is presented by the Catholic Church in union with the pope in Rome.  

The Orthodox Catholic position is not in line with the Catholic Church at the moment.  Quite right.  There may be movement in that direction....or not.  It depends on our hierarchs.



Father Ambrose asked for a citation from Rev. Dr. Stanley S. Harakas, the most well known Orthodox writer on moral theology in the United States, at least.

I had indicated that circumstance dictates the morality of abortion for Orthodoxy based upon what the Ecumenical Patriarch has said, and never retracted, and the fact that the Greek Orthodox priest, Father Stanley supports to this day, and has not retracted.

Father Ambrose has demanded a citation.  So here it is...the contingency of Orthodox moral teaching on abortion...at least from the Greek perspective.   I have heard no outcry against Father Stanley's position from any jurisdiction.

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101

Quote
The Orthodox Church brands abortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce to abortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die.
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« Reply #105 on: January 29, 2011, 03:14:28 PM »

http://books.google.com/books?id=gGqPftVkwgUC&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126&dq=Stanley+Harakas+on+Abortion&source=bl&ots=OdFDvxcQNC&sig=SO4ZtPIZ197pNtfQIvOaa7zq_MU&hl=en&ei=R0tETe3mBoydgQfE5MSVAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Stanley%20Harakas%20on%20Abortion&f=false

Also Father John Meyendorff in his book Witness To The World supports Father Stanley's contingent approach to maternal health and abortion.

So it seems to me that the Orthodox Church, in some way, not only does not stand with the Catholic Church on birth control but also does not stand with her on abortion either.

Again, my point that we cannot present a united front to the secular world seems to be true.

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« Reply #106 on: January 29, 2011, 03:14:28 PM »

Whenever you are ready to repent.
Speaking of which, when are you going to repent of your sin of schism?
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« Reply #107 on: January 29, 2011, 04:15:29 PM »

Whenever you are ready to repent.
Speaking of which, when are you going to repent of your sin of schism?
Those guilty of schism have to repent of it, not the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
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« Reply #108 on: January 29, 2011, 04:25:06 PM »



I had indicated that circumstance dictates the morality of abortion for Orthodoxy based upon what the Ecumenical Patriarch has said, and never retracted, and the fact that the Greek Orthodox priest, Father Stanley supports to this day, and has not retracted.

Father Ambrose has demanded a citation.  So here it is...the contingency of Orthodox moral teaching on abortion...at least from the Greek perspective.   I have heard no outcry against Father Stanley's position from any jurisdiction. 

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101

Quote
The Orthodox Church brands abortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce to abortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die.

http://books.google.com/books?id=gGqPftVkwgUC&pg=PA126&lpg=PA126&dq=Stanley+Harakas+on+Abortion&source=bl&ots=OdFDvxcQNC&sig=SO4ZtPIZ197pNtfQIvOaa7zq_MU&hl=en&ei=R0tETe3mBoydgQfE5MSVAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CEkQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=Stanley%20Harakas%20on%20Abortion&f=false

Also Father John Meyendorff in his book Witness To The World supports Father Stanley's contingent approach to maternal health and abortion.

So it seems to me that the Orthodox Church, in some way, not only does not stand with the Catholic Church on birth control but also does not stand with her on abortion either.

Again, my point that we cannot present a united front to the secular world seems to be true.

I see.  Because we're willing to spend the Sabbath looking for a lost lamb, that makes you the more "right" proponent of Judaism.  Roll Eyes
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« Reply #109 on: January 29, 2011, 04:28:50 PM »


What part of Fr.Meyendorff's "that fact that the issue [of abortion], in Orthodox Tradition, is plainly obvious" did you miss?

So it seems to me
And who are you?

And who asked you?

that the Orthodox Church, in some way, not only does not stand with the Catholic Church on birth control but also does not stand with her on abortion either.
The Orthodox stands as the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.  She need not submit to diktats from the soereign of hte Vatican City, nor jump through hoops he or his minions demand.

Again, my point that we cannot present a united front to the secular world seems to be true.
Not on your dictated terms, no. We learned from the example of Emperor Alexis Comnene and the True Champion of the Christian Faith (so the Vatican said) Prince Stefan III the Great, who taught us that while presenting that united front with the Vatican to the non-Christians, watch your back.
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« Reply #110 on: January 29, 2011, 04:39:28 PM »

Definitely some over reacting here.  I find that curious.

In any event, the points I've been making are:

1. That is an insightful article written by Father Gregory and we all should pay heed to it.

2. That if the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholic Church are going to stand together against the intrinsic and heinous sin of abortion, then I think that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement that comes from the leadership, and not just from lay groups or individual jurisdictions that states as the Catholic Church states that abortion is wrong under ANY and ALL circumstances.  Otherwise we are not really presenting a united voice.

The best you've all been able to come up with so far is an attack on the messenger...figures.
You mean the self appointed prophet.  We have specifc instructions of how to deal with false prophets.  Deuteronomy 13.

1. So you found something to fashion a gnat strainer out of. And we are supposed to stand in awe. Roll Eyes

2. The thought of your supreme pontiff that when he says "jump!" we should ask how high lays at the problem of doiing anything with you all: did your visible head make a plain statement that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement, or is this the veiled suggestion of his invisible minions?

Since we do not follow the artificial equation that the Vatican has made "barrier method=abortion," it is not going to be a united voice according to your criteria.

The individial Orthodox Churches speak for the Catholic Church on this issue.  The Vatican does not.

The Catholic position is presented by the Catholic Church in union with the pope in Rome.  

The Orthodox Catholic position is not in line with the Catholic Church at the moment.  Quite right.  There may be movement in that direction....or not.  It depends on our hierarchs.



Father Ambrose asked for a citation from Rev. Dr. Stanley S. Harakas, the most well known Orthodox writer on moral theology in the United States, at least.

I had indicated that circumstance dictates the morality of abortion for Orthodoxy based upon what the Ecumenical Patriarch has said, and never retracted, and the fact that the Greek Orthodox priest, Father Stanley supports to this day, and has not retracted.

Father Ambrose has demanded a citation.  So here it is...the contingency of Orthodox moral teaching on abortion...at least from the Greek perspective.   I have heard no outcry against Father Stanley's position from any jurisdiction.

http://www.goarch.org/ourfaith/ourfaith7101

Quote
The Orthodox Church brands abortion as murder; that is, as a premeditated termination of the life of a human being. The only time the Orthodox Church will reluctantly acquiesce to abortion is when the preponderance of medical opinion determines that unless the embryo or fetus is aborted, the mother will die.
So, let's presume that the Orthodox Church doesn't agree with the Vatican (not that I am saying that, but it's easier to say that than to extract the bee from your bonnet). So this <3% of all abortions, you would rather unite with the Orthodox against the >97% of abortions. Couple this with the only 3% of the followers of the Vatican who follow Humanae Vitae, and you have yourself quite an impressive coalition there. Roll Eyes
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« Reply #111 on: January 29, 2011, 04:45:09 PM »

Whenever you are ready to repent.
Speaking of which, when are you going to repent of your sin of schism?
Those guilty of schism have to repent of it, not the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Exactly...so when are you going to?
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« Reply #112 on: January 29, 2011, 05:28:22 PM »


In this situation, the Orthodox have nothing to repent.

We are the One True Church of Christ.  The one He founded.
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« Reply #113 on: January 29, 2011, 05:37:37 PM »

Are there any Romans out there of charitable temperament who would speak out in defense of Orthodoxy's position on abortion? It seems that only those interested in perpetuating calumny are online.
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« Reply #114 on: January 29, 2011, 05:38:55 PM »

We are the One True Church of Christ.  The one He founded.
Except you are not one, but many.
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« Reply #115 on: January 29, 2011, 06:37:39 PM »

Are there any Romans out there of charitable temperament who would speak out in defense of Orthodoxy's position on abortion? It seems that only those interested in perpetuating calumny are online.

How is it calumny, which is a false charge made with malice, to say, with references, "No.  It is not at all clear that the Orthodox Church teaches the same thing as the Catholic Church teaches with respect to the intrinsic nature of the sin of abortion."

It is not the same teaching and cannot be defended as such.  I am not personally condemning anyone or any body of beings. 

I am saying that the teachings are not the same, and people in the world of secular governments and lawmakers will know that and use it against us to foment discord and detract from the unity we might seek to present.

Now if you think that is malicious on my part, I can't help you.  But point of fact says that what I am telling you is not false.  So you cannot call it calumny by definition.  The best you can do is say that I am malicious.

Mary
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« Reply #116 on: January 29, 2011, 07:08:03 PM »

Are there any Romans out there of charitable temperament who would speak out in defense of Orthodoxy's position on abortion? It seems that only those interested in perpetuating calumny are online.

How is it calumny, which is a false charge made with malice, to say, with references, "No.  It is not at all clear that the Orthodox Church teaches the same thing as the Catholic Church teaches with respect to the intrinsic nature of the sin of abortion."

It is not the same teaching and cannot be defended as such.  I am not personally condemning anyone or any body of beings. 

I am saying that the teachings are not the same, and people in the world of secular governments and lawmakers will know that and use it against us to foment discord and detract from the unity we might seek to present.

Now if you think that is malicious on my part, I can't help you.  But point of fact says that what I am telling you is not false.  So you cannot call it calumny by definition.  The best you can do is say that I am malicious.

Mary

It is a malicious falsehood, hence it is bearing of false witness and calumny. Sorry, but your arguments are self serving and prove nothing.

For serious people I suggest you turn your time away from this thread and return to Orthodox Info to read the brief submitted by Orthodox Christians for life to the Supreme Court. Sorry it bothers some of you that we don't have a single voice to speak for all of us like your vision of the papacy  (that's working out well for you given the actual beliefs of people professing to be Catholic when polled on abortion....we have the same problem, but that is another discussion.) but we have the Church to speak for us through human mouths and this legal brief states the Church's position.


from the brief:

CONCLUSION
The historic morality which forms the foundation of American constitutional thought is firmly grounded in the Judeo-Christian tradition. That tradition has unambiguously recognized that life begins at conception, and that abortion is murder. The notion that abortion on demand is an inherent right which cannot be denied, is of recent origin. Samuel Adams recognized that such innovations should be resisted: "If the liberties of America are ever completely ruined,... it will in all probability be the consequence of a mistaken notion of prudence, which leads men to acquiesce in measures of the most destructive tendency for the sake of present ease." [27]

The "present ease" of abortion on demand does not, and cannot, alter the historical and moral truth that "universal life would proceed according to nature if we would practice continence from the beginning instead of destroying, through immoral and pernicious acts, human beings who are given birth by Divine Providence." [28] The assembled jurisdictions of the Holy Orthodox Church in the United States speak with one voice in urging this Court to recognize the sanctity of human life, and reverse the decision of the Court of Appeals.

Dated this 21st day of February, 1989.

Respectfully submitted,

JAMES GEORGE JATRAS*
PAUL FARLEY
ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS FOR LIFE
http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/abortion.aspx


To hold otherwise, as you insist, can only be viewed as malicious as your position has no basis in fact.
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« Reply #117 on: January 29, 2011, 07:39:18 PM »

We are the One True Church of Christ.  The one He founded.
Except you are not one, but many.
Yes, the many sees founded by the Apostles in the East.  Not like the lone outpost in Rome.
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« Reply #118 on: January 29, 2011, 07:42:00 PM »

Are there any Romans out there of charitable temperament who would speak out in defense of Orthodoxy's position on abortion? It seems that only those interested in perpetuating calumny are online.

How is it calumny, which is a false charge made with malice, to say, with references, "No.  It is not at all clear that the Orthodox Church teaches the same thing as the Catholic Church teaches with respect to the intrinsic nature of the sin of abortion."

It is not the same teaching and cannot be defended as such.  I am not personally condemning anyone or any body of beings. 

I am saying that the teachings are not the same, and people in the world of secular governments and lawmakers will know that and use it against us to foment discord and detract from the unity we might seek to present.

Now if you think that is malicious on my part, I can't help you.  But point of fact says that what I am telling you is not false.  So you cannot call it calumny by definition.  The best you can do is say that I am malicious.
Well, good. So, since we are not going to Canossa, you can stop pestering us about Vatican-Orthodox talks which will go nowhere.
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« Reply #119 on: January 29, 2011, 09:57:19 PM »

The Amicus Curiae against Abortion Submitted to the Supreme Court of the United States
http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/abortion.aspx


There were many names.

Here are just the names of the bishops:

The American Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Diocese:
His Grace, Bishop Nicholas;

The Anthiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America:
His Eminence, Most Rev. Metropolitan Philip;
Rt. Rev. Antun, Auxiliary Bishop; V

The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of North and South America:
Rt. Rev. Maximos, Bishop of Pittsburgh;
Archbishop Iakovos Professor of Orthodox Theology and Christian Ethics, Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology;

The Orthodox Church in America:
His Beatitude Theodosius, Archbishop of Washington, Metropolitan of All America and Canada;
Rt. Rev. Peter, Bishop of New York and New Jersey;
Rt. Rev. Dimitri, Bishop of Dallas and the South;
Rt. Rev. Herman, Bishop of Philadelphia and Eastern Pennsylvania;
Rt. Rev. Gregory, Bishop of Sitka and Alaska;
Rt. Rev. Nathaniel, Bishop of Detroit and the Romanian Episcopate;
Rt. Rev. Job, Bishop of Hartford and New England;
Rt. Rev. Tikhon, Bishop of San Francisco;
Rt. Rev. Mark, Acting Bishop of Chicago and the Midwest;

The Russian Orthodox Church in Exile:
His Eminence, Most Rev. Vitaly, Metropolitan of New York and Eastern America, First Hierarch of the Russian Orthodox Church in Exile;
Most Rev. Anthony, Archbishop of Los Angeles and Southern California;
Most Rev. Antony, Archbishop of San Francisco and Western America;
Most Rev. Laurus, Archbishop of Syracuse and Holy Trinity Monastery, Rector of Holy Trinity Orthodox Seminary, and Abbot of Holy Trinity Orthodox Monastery, Jordanville, New York;
Rt. Rev. Alypy, Bishop of Chicago, Detroit, and Midwest America;
Rt. Rev. Hilarion, Bishop of Manhattan;
Rt. Rev. Daniel, Bishop of Erie and Protector of the Old Rite;

The Serbian Orthodox Church in the United States and Canada:
His Grace, Bishop Christopher;

The Ukrainian Orthodox Church of America and Canada:
His Grace, Bishop Vsevolod.

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« Reply #120 on: January 29, 2011, 10:10:56 PM »

And it makes me think that it would be good to have one uni-vocal and unequivocal statement signed on to by all Patriarchs and Metropolitans.   In that way there would be less room for confusion...and I single document through which one can answer the concerns of the faithful and also one that is clear when confronting the secular world and governments.


The Sixth Ecumenical Council
Canon XCI. Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the…



Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the foetus, are subjected to the penalty of murder.

Notes.

Ancient Epitome of Canon XCI.

Whoever gives or receives medicine to produce abortion is a homicide.

See Canon XXI. of Ancyra, and Canon II. of St. Basil; to wit, "She who purposely destroys the foetus, shall suffer the punishment of murder. And we pay no attention to the subtile distinction as to whether the foetus was formed or unformed. And by this not only is justice satisfied for the child that should have been born, but also for her who prepared for herself the snares, since the women very often die who make such experiments."

http://christianbookshelf.org/schaff/the_seven_ecumenical_councils/canon_xci_those_who_give.htm

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« Reply #121 on: January 29, 2011, 10:57:20 PM »

And it makes me think that it would be good to have one uni-vocal and unequivocal statement signed on to by all Patriarchs and Metropolitans.   In that way there would be less room for confusion...and I single document through which one can answer the concerns of the faithful and also one that is clear when confronting the secular world and governments.


The Sixth Ecumenical Council
Canon XCI. Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the…



Those who give drugs for procuring abortion, and those who receive poisons to kill the foetus, are subjected to the penalty of murder.

Notes.

Ancient Epitome of Canon XCI.

Whoever gives or receives medicine to produce abortion is a homicide.

See Canon XXI. of Ancyra, and Canon II. of St. Basil; to wit, "She who purposely destroys the foetus, shall suffer the punishment of murder. And we pay no attention to the subtile distinction as to whether the foetus was formed or unformed. And by this not only is justice satisfied for the child that should have been born, but also for her who prepared for herself the snares, since the women very often die who make such experiments."

http://christianbookshelf.org/schaff/the_seven_ecumenical_councils/canon_xci_those_who_give.htm




But you have to remember father, for the Catholic Church, ancient canons and centuries upon centuries of tradition are really of little consequence. All that matters is what the men who currently constitute the "magisterium" have to say.
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« Reply #122 on: January 30, 2011, 12:14:24 AM »

Maria,

A joint statement would be helpful.  However, despite the prevelance of abortion in the early church, after the Didache, we did not have a conciliar joint declaration until Trullo.  Instead, as with many things, the voice of individual church fathers and local councils prevailed beyond the borders as local voices expressing the universal belief (consensus patrem).  No Bishop of Rome issued any statements against abortion for the first millenium; rather, we find them in the fathers and synods in the east.  If you reply that they did respect life generally, well then I would reply that we have plenty of joint statements on the sanctity of life (I believe the synaxis either in 2008 or in 2000 stated this).   Again, as with the early Church, so also now, we have statements from the Synod of Greece, the Synod of Moscow, etc. that, as in early days, express the consensus patrem on the subject.  Again, I am not arguing that a joint statement would not be helpful, just that it is not necessary.   But you will find a constant unanimous consent of Orthodox canon law, which unambiguously condemns abortion.  What more is needed?   No new canon needs issued, a universal one was issued.  The pan-Orthodox synods and meetings have affirmed these canons and therefore confirm the position on abortion that the Church has always held. 


Definitely some over reacting here.  I find that curious.

In any event, the points I've been making are:

1. That is an insightful article written by Father Gregory and we all should pay heed to it.

2. That if the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Catholic Church are going to stand together against the intrinsic and heinous sin of abortion, then I think that the Orthodox Churches should issue a joint statement that comes from the leadership, and not just from lay groups or individual jurisdictions that states as the Catholic Church states that abortion is wrong under ANY and ALL circumstances.  Otherwise we are not really presenting a united voice.

The best you've all been able to come up with so far is an attack on the messenger...figures.


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« Reply #123 on: January 30, 2011, 12:22:30 AM »

Are there any Romans out there of charitable temperament who would speak out in defense of Orthodoxy's position on abortion? It seems that only those interested in perpetuating calumny are online.

How is it calumny, which is a false charge made with malice, to say, with references, "No.  It is not at all clear that the Orthodox Church teaches the same thing as the Catholic Church teaches with respect to the intrinsic nature of the sin of abortion."

It is not the same teaching and cannot be defended as such.  I am not personally condemning anyone or any body of beings. 

I am saying that the teachings are not the same, and people in the world of secular governments and lawmakers will know that and use it against us to foment discord and detract from the unity we might seek to present.

Now if you think that is malicious on my part, I can't help you.  But point of fact says that what I am telling you is not false.  So you cannot call it calumny by definition.  The best you can do is say that I am malicious.

Mary

It is a malicious falsehood, hence it is bearing of false witness and calumny. Sorry, but your arguments are self serving and prove nothing.

For serious people I suggest you turn your time away from this thread and return to Orthodox Info to read the brief submitted by Orthodox Christians for life to the Supreme Court. Sorry it bothers some of you that we don't have a single voice to speak for all of us like your vision of the papacy  (that's working out well for you given the actual beliefs of people professing to be Catholic when polled on abortion....we have the same problem, but that is another discussion.) but we have the Church to speak for us through human mouths and this legal brief states the Church's position.


from the brief:

CONCLUSION
The historic morality which forms the foundation of American constitutional thought is firmly grounded in the Judeo-Christian tradition. That tradition has unambiguously recognized that life begins at conception, and that abortion is murder. The notion that abortion on demand is an inherent right which cannot be denied, is of recent origin. Samuel Adams recognized that such innovations should be resisted: "If the liberties of America are ever completely ruined,... it will in all probability be the consequence of a mistaken notion of prudence, which leads men to acquiesce in measures of the most destructive tendency for the sake of present ease." [27]

The "present ease" of abortion on demand does not, and cannot, alter the historical and moral truth that "universal life would proceed according to nature if we would practice continence from the beginning instead of destroying, through immoral and pernicious acts, human beings who are given birth by Divine Providence." [28] The assembled jurisdictions of the Holy Orthodox Church in the United States speak with one voice in urging this Court to recognize the sanctity of human life, and reverse the decision of the Court of Appeals.

Dated this 21st day of February, 1989.

Respectfully submitted,

JAMES GEORGE JATRAS*
PAUL FARLEY
ORTHODOX CHRISTIANS FOR LIFE
http://orthodoxinfo.com/praxis/abortion.aspx


To hold otherwise, as you insist, can only be viewed as malicious as your position has no basis in fact.

I am sorry you feel this way but Orthodoxy is seriously going to have to deal with the texts that I produced, and all those Orthodox bishops and people who agree with them.

They are not reflective of what the Catholic Church teaches and they are, in the case of the Ecumenical Patriarch, reflective of what is being taught to a large number of Orthodox Christians.

If you think that is malicious...well...then I am sorry for you because you don't know me at all and clearly have no idea what concerns me with this topic.

Mary
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« Reply #124 on: January 30, 2011, 12:22:31 AM »

We are the One True Church of Christ.  The one He founded.
Except you are not one, but many.
Yes, the many sees founded by the Apostles in the East.  Not like the lone outpost in Rome.
Christ prayed for us Christians to be one as He and the Father are one. He did not pray for us to be many.
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« Reply #125 on: January 30, 2011, 12:50:30 AM »

Anyone else think this thread is ridonkulous?

In Christ,
Andrew

I think it has become unnecessarily contentious.
It became unnecessarily contentious when you posted the OP.
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« Reply #126 on: January 30, 2011, 12:52:49 AM »

We are the One True Church of Christ.  The one He founded.
Except you are not one, but many.
Yes, the many sees founded by the Apostles in the East.  Not like the lone outpost in Rome.
Christ prayed for us Christians to be one as He and the Father are one. He did not pray for us to be many.
Yes, Three Persons in One Godhead.  If you want unity like the Vatican, try Allah.
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« Reply #127 on: January 30, 2011, 01:04:32 AM »

I am sorry you feel this way but Orthodoxy is seriously going to have to deal with the texts that I produced,
LOL. Or you'll do what?

The Orthodox have to only deal with the texts others have produced, like XCI of Constnatinople III (the one who anathematized your supreme pontiff).

and all those Orthodox bishops and people who agree with them.
Would they be those nameless Orthodox you keep telling us about, who are chomping at the bit to submit to the Vatican?

They are not reflective of what the Catholic Church teaches and they are, in the case of the Ecumenical Patriarch, reflective of what is being taught to a large number of Orthodox Christians.
Which splinter of a hair are you talking about specifically?

If you think that is malicious...well...then I am sorry for you because you don't know me at all and clearly have no idea what concerns me with this topic.
Sure we do.  You want to make an oppurtunity to prattle on about your much vaunted "magisterium."  We're not impressed, particularly, as Father pointed out, your supreme pontiffs didn't make any statement on abortion until relatively recent.
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« Reply #128 on: January 30, 2011, 03:53:54 AM »

Maria,

A joint statement would be helpful.  However, despite the prevelance of abortion in the early church, after the Didache, we did not have a conciliar joint declaration until Trullo.  Instead, as with many things, the voice of individual church fathers and local councils prevailed beyond the borders as local voices expressing the universal belief (consensus patrem).  No Bishop of Rome issued any statements against abortion for the first millenium; rather, we find them in the fathers and synods in the east.  If you reply that they did respect life generally, well then I would reply that we have plenty of joint statements on the sanctity of life (I believe the synaxis either in 2008 or in 2000 stated this).   Again, as with the early Church, so also now, we have statements from the Synod of Greece, the Synod of Moscow, etc. that, as in early days, express the consensus patrem on the subject.  Again, I am not arguing that a joint statement would not be helpful, just that it is not necessary.   But you will find a constant unanimous consent of Orthodox canon law, which unambiguously condemns abortion.  What more is needed?   No new canon needs issued, a universal one was issued.  The pan-Orthodox synods and meetings have affirmed these canons and therefore confirm the position on abortion that the Church has always held. 

Thanks very very much, Father!!

This is the discussion I was looking for.  I agree with you!  I do think a joint and clarifying statement would be exceptionally useful...precisely because of the statements made by Father Stanley and the EP, and the fact that we tend to keep the commandments mostly in the breach.

It's late and I am too tired to say much more.  But you're addressing my concerns here precisely and in the spirit in which I broached it in the first place.

Mary
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« Reply #129 on: January 30, 2011, 03:53:55 AM »

We are the One True Church of Christ.  The one He founded.
Except you are not one, but many.
Yes, the many sees founded by the Apostles in the East.  Not like the lone outpost in Rome.
Christ prayed for us Christians to be one as He and the Father are one. He did not pray for us to be many.
Yes, Three Persons in One Godhead.  If you want unity like the Vatican, try Allah.
Again, I am trying to talk about the differences in the ecclesiologies of our Churches and you keep changing the subject back to that city-state again. I wish you would stop being so evasive and stay on topic.
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« Reply #130 on: January 30, 2011, 03:59:26 AM »

We are the One True Church of Christ.  The one He founded.
Except you are not one, but many.
Yes, the many sees founded by the Apostles in the East.  Not like the lone outpost in Rome.
Christ prayed for us Christians to be one as He and the Father are one. He did not pray for us to be many.
Yes, Three Persons in One Godhead.  If you want unity like the Vatican, try Allah.
Again, I am trying to talk about the differences in the ecclesiologies of our Churches and you keep changing the subject back to that city-state again. I wish you would stop being so evasive and stay on topic.
Ironic, coming from the poster who started this off-topic battle of dueling ecclesiologies.
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« Reply #131 on: January 30, 2011, 12:30:59 PM »

I am probably not a good Catholic, nor a good (potential future) Orthodox, because I do not agree that abortion should be illegal in "any and all circumstances".

I think it should not be allowed in the vast majority of cases where it's don today.  However, I think it should be available, as a last resort, when the mother's life is at risk and she, or her family if she's unconscious, makes the choice for an abortion.

I don't think this should be an easy chiice. But I also don't think it should be illegal.
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« Reply #132 on: January 30, 2011, 12:59:33 PM »

I am probably not a good Catholic, nor a good (potential future) Orthodox, because I do not agree that abortion should be illegal in "any and all circumstances".

I think it should not be allowed in the vast majority of cases where it's don today.  However, I think it should be available, as a last resort, when the mother's life is at risk and she, or her family if she's unconscious, makes the choice for an abortion.

I don't think this should be an easy chiice. But I also don't think it should be illegal.

Dear Theistgal,

A good ob-gyn or a layman who has been in the pro-life "business" for a long time will tell you that the scenario that you present is so rare that it reaches very close to a statistical zero, and would be most likely to happen, if or when it happens as you describe above, because of an accident.   What you are talking about is the certain knowledge that removing the baby from the woman in case of such an accident would surely save her life. 

In reality in such cases, doctors would try to save both and in the final moment would instinctively grab for the life that has the best chance of recovery.  That is the reality of it, and it is so rare that it defies everything but the heart that is true with respect to the sanctity of life.  You don't need to legislate such things.  In fact there is no just human law in such cases. 

That is why we do not make laws or regulations that try to narrow to the last iota when it is appropriate to turn off the ventilators and increase the morphine.  I know.  I was with the doctors as my father lay dying.  IF I, or the doctors, had had to be reading law books as we made the choices we made in those final days and final hours, I would have begged them to just put me in jail and be done with it...preferably in blessed isolation.  No.  You don't invite the state in to the bedroom of the dying.  I hope to be long gone before we make that insane move.

In fact if you follow what the Church teaches then you never grab for what might look like an easy way out.  You use all of the resources at your command to save both lives.

In the end, at that last instant of decision, the Church says IF the child dies in the process of trying to save both, then there is no fault.  But you don't take the child from the womb, unless and until you know that child is dead or dying... 

There simply are NO circumstances where it is so clear that we can know that taking the child will save the mother or leaving the child will kill the mother.  Our medicine is too advanced for that.  When it is done it is done as a convenience, in essence...a safeguard rather than a certitude...and that is the easy way out and unacceptable to the Church.

You would not argue with John Paul II when he said that we have advanced as peoples and nations to the point where there is no need, except in the most rare instance, to employ capital punishment. 

This is a similar thing.  Medically the options to take, because we are advanced so far so as to make this possible,  would be to make every attempt to save both, and if the child dies, in utero, then thanks God for his mercy.
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« Reply #133 on: January 30, 2011, 01:23:32 PM »

I am probably not a good Catholic, nor a good (potential future) Orthodox, because I do not agree that abortion should be illegal in "any and all circumstances".

I think it should not be allowed in the vast majority of cases where it's don today.  However, I think it should be available, as a last resort, when the mother's life is at risk and she, or her family if she's unconscious, makes the choice for an abortion.

I don't think this should be an easy chiice. But I also don't think it should be illegal.

Dear Theistgal,

A good ob-gyn or a layman who has been in the pro-life "business" for a long time will tell you that the scenario that you present is so rare that it reaches very close to a statistical zero, and would be most likely to happen, if or when it happens as you describe above, because of an accident.   What you are talking about is the certain knowledge that removing the baby from the woman in case of such an accident would surely save her life.  
Since absolute certainty might be relatively rare, what about cases in which it is considered "very probable" that removing the baby would save the woman's life? Does the Catholic Church teach that, in the latter case, abortion is absolutely prohibited?
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« Reply #134 on: January 30, 2011, 01:58:32 PM »


Since absolute certainty might be relatively rare, what about cases in which it is considered "very probable" that removing the baby would save the woman's life? Does the Catholic Church teach that, in the latter case, abortion is absolutely prohibited?


Anytime I read a discussion like this it brings a question to my mind. Would we ever consider killing the mother in order to save the child?  Undecided
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« Reply #135 on: January 30, 2011, 03:32:06 PM »

I am probably not a good Catholic, nor a good (potential future) Orthodox, because I do not agree that abortion should be illegal in "any and all circumstances".

I think it should not be allowed in the vast majority of cases where it's don today.  However, I think it should be available, as a last resort, when the mother's life is at risk and she, or her family if she's unconscious, makes the choice for an abortion.

I don't think this should be an easy chiice. But I also don't think it should be illegal.

Dear Theistgal,

A good ob-gyn or a layman who has been in the pro-life "business" for a long time will tell you that the scenario that you present is so rare that it reaches very close to a statistical zero, and would be most likely to happen, if or when it happens as you describe above, because of an accident.   What you are talking about is the certain knowledge that removing the baby from the woman in case of such an accident would surely save her life.  
Since absolute certainty might be relatively rare, what about cases in which it is considered "very probable" that removing the baby would save the woman's life? Does the Catholic Church teach that, in the latter case, abortion is absolutely prohibited?

"Very probable"...has in so many cases been proven to be false.  To say "very probable" is again an easy way out.  Women have done astonishing things to keep their children and bring them into the world with the help of modern medicine...sometimes the women and the child have both lived full lives.  Sometimes the mother has died due to complications from the treatments and delivery, but that is the way of it, is it not.  There are near zero cases where we can say that leaving the child in the womb will definitely kill the mother.  Too many of those "very probable" cases have come out just fine in the end.

But that does not answer your question:  The Church says that the child must not be removed from the womb to die, under any circumstances,  and that ALL efforts must be employed to save both.  IF the child dies in that effort to save mother and child when the child is absolutely too tiny to survive outside the womb, then thanks God for his mercy.

And we know without doubt that the viability of a child outside of the womb is being pushed to heretofore unthinkable limits by the power of modern medicine...so the excuses of "very probable" with respect to killing an in utero infant are getting more and more and more remote.

Mary

Mary
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« Reply #136 on: January 30, 2011, 03:32:06 PM »

We are the One True Church of Christ.  The one He founded.
Except you are not one, but many.
Yes, the many sees founded by the Apostles in the East.  Not like the lone outpost in Rome.
Christ prayed for us Christians to be one as He and the Father are one. He did not pray for us to be many.
Yes, Three Persons in One Godhead.  If you want unity like the Vatican, try Allah.
Again, I am trying to talk about the differences in the ecclesiologies of our Churches and you keep changing the subject back to that city-state again. I wish you would stop being so evasive and stay on topic.
Ironic, coming from the poster who started this off-topic battle of dueling ecclesiologies.
At least I am still talking about our Churches. This isn't the "Orthodox - City-state discussion" section.
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« Reply #137 on: January 30, 2011, 03:32:07 PM »


Since absolute certainty might be relatively rare, what about cases in which it is considered "very probable" that removing the baby would save the woman's life? Does the Catholic Church teach that, in the latter case, abortion is absolutely prohibited?


Anytime I read a discussion like this it brings a question to my mind. Would we ever consider killing the mother in order to save the child?  Undecided

Good for you!!  Very few people every flip the coin!

When you ask it that way it becomes even MORE clear that we cannot say with certitude one way or the other till the very last moment...However when it appears that there may be a choice in the final analysis, it is generally the mother who says "IF there is a choice at the end, save my child"...

But again these are not things that can be legislated in all of their particulars, in advance.

What we need is an amendment such as the one that ended the idiocy of the three/fifths compromise...and declare as part of the law of the land that every conception is a FULL human person who is protected under the supreme law of the land for their life, their liberty and their pursuits of happiness.

That is all that is necessary.  From that, and faith, the rest comes to us as we are in need.
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« Reply #138 on: January 30, 2011, 03:57:14 PM »


Since absolute certainty might be relatively rare, what about cases in which it is considered "very probable" that removing the baby would save the woman's life? Does the Catholic Church teach that, in the latter case, abortion is absolutely prohibited?


Anytime I read a discussion like this it brings a question to my mind. Would we ever consider killing the mother in order to save the child?  Undecided

Yes.  This is surely the most excruciating choice ever faced by a husband and, if they are old enough, by the children.
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« Reply #139 on: January 30, 2011, 04:37:41 PM »

All I can say is that I knew a woman who bled to death after giving birth to her child. She KNEW that was a possibility and she CHOSE to go through with the pregnancy anyway, to give her baby a chance.

Sadly the baby died less than 24 hours after birth.

I consider this woman a hero because she knew the risk and CHOSE to take it.  I think most people would have understood (if not approved) if she had chosen an abortion instead.

But for me what made Stephanie a hero is that she made this CHOICE of her own free will, wirhout having the added stress of wondering if she would go to jail.

That's why I think it should remain legal.  I'm sorry if that makes me sound like a pro-abortion person because I'm not - and neither was +Stephanie+.

But I *am* in favor of having it be the pregnant woman's decision.
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« Reply #140 on: January 30, 2011, 06:20:07 PM »


Since absolute certainty might be relatively rare, what about cases in which it is considered "very probable" that removing the baby would save the woman's life? Does the Catholic Church teach that, in the latter case, abortion is absolutely prohibited?


Anytime I read a discussion like this it brings a question to my mind. Would we ever consider killing the mother in order to save the child?  Undecided

Yes.  This is surely the most excruciating choice ever faced by a husband and, if they are old enough, by the children.

I think the question is whether or not you'd actively take the life of the mother to save the baby...Not just allow her to die but actively kill her as we speak so readily about actively killing an otherwise viable baby to save the mother.



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« Reply #141 on: January 30, 2011, 06:20:08 PM »

All I can say is that I knew a woman who bled to death after giving birth to her child. She KNEW that was a possibility and she CHOSE to go through with the pregnancy anyway, to give her baby a chance.

Sadly the baby died less than 24 hours after birth.

I consider this woman a hero because she knew the risk and CHOSE to take it.  I think most people would have understood (if not approved) if she had chosen an abortion instead.

But for me what made Stephanie a hero is that she made this CHOICE of her own free will, wirhout having the added stress of wondering if she would go to jail.

That's why I think it should remain legal.  I'm sorry if that makes me sound like a pro-abortion person because I'm not - and neither was +Stephanie+.

But I *am* in favor of having it be the pregnant woman's decision.

Then all killing should be legal so that when we choose not to kill, we are heroes.   It should be our choice, otherwise we are not truly free!!
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« Reply #142 on: January 31, 2011, 01:32:01 AM »

You know, it's easy to sneer at someone else's agonizing decision, when it's not someone you know.

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« Reply #143 on: January 31, 2011, 04:38:24 AM »

But I *am* in favor of having it be the pregnant woman's decision.

So what you're saying is that let's kill the baby so I can live.
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« Reply #144 on: January 31, 2011, 08:36:54 AM »


Since absolute certainty might be relatively rare, what about cases in which it is considered "very probable" that removing the baby would save the woman's life? Does the Catholic Church teach that, in the latter case, abortion is absolutely prohibited?


Anytime I read a discussion like this it brings a question to my mind. Would we ever consider killing the mother in order to save the child?  Undecided

Yes.  This is surely the most excruciating choice ever faced by a husband and, if they are old enough, by the children.

I think the question is whether or not you'd actively take the life of the mother to save the baby...Not just allow her to die but actively kill her as we speak so readily about actively killing an otherwise viable baby to save the mother.



Is this a choice available to Catholics?  To kill the mother to secure the life of the child?
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« Reply #145 on: January 31, 2011, 11:07:40 AM »


Since absolute certainty might be relatively rare, what about cases in which it is considered "very probable" that removing the baby would save the woman's life? Does the Catholic Church teach that, in the latter case, abortion is absolutely prohibited?


Anytime I read a discussion like this it brings a question to my mind. Would we ever consider killing the mother in order to save the child?  Undecided

Yes.  This is surely the most excruciating choice ever faced by a husband and, if they are old enough, by the children.

I think the question is whether or not you'd actively take the life of the mother to save the baby...Not just allow her to die but actively kill her as we speak so readily about actively killing an otherwise viable baby to save the mother.



Is this a choice available to Catholics?  To kill the mother to secure the life of the child?
Is that a serious question or are you playing games?
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« Reply #146 on: January 31, 2011, 11:38:06 AM »

And yet in the past some Catholic women hesitated to go to a Catholic hospital to give birth, fearing exactly that: that if it came down to a choice between mother and child, mother would lose. 

And no, I don't have any statistics (real or fancied) to back that up - but I've read enough women's fiction of the early 20th century to know that was a pretty widespread concern.
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« Reply #147 on: January 31, 2011, 11:47:18 AM »

And yet in the past some Catholic women hesitated to go to a Catholic hospital to give birth, fearing exactly that: that if it came down to a choice between mother and child, mother would lose. 

And no, I don't have any statistics (real or fancied) to back that up - but I've read enough women's fiction of the early 20th century to know that was a pretty widespread concern.

Written during the early 20th century, or written later with the setting in the early 20th century?
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« Reply #148 on: January 31, 2011, 01:02:23 PM »

We are the One True Church of Christ.  The one He founded.
Except you are not one, but many.
Yes, the many sees founded by the Apostles in the East.  Not like the lone outpost in Rome.
Christ prayed for us Christians to be one as He and the Father are one. He did not pray for us to be many.
Yes, Three Persons in One Godhead.  If you want unity like the Vatican, try Allah.
Again, I am trying to talk about the differences in the ecclesiologies of our Churches and you keep changing the subject back to that city-state again. I wish you would stop being so evasive and stay on topic.
I'm not evasive at all, and am on topic: that you don't like to stare truth in the face, and prefer to go deeper into denial in about the structure of your ecclesiastical organization isn't my problem.

Elijahmary insists we have to march in lockstep with what the sovereign of the Vatican says if we are going to join forces against liberalization of abortion laws.  We're not going to Canossa, but you all seem to overlook that. It would be like the US committing itself to Stalin's diktats to join forces to fight Hilter: the limited ways the US, Britain and France did just that took fifty years to undo, and almost didn't.
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« Reply #149 on: January 31, 2011, 01:17:45 PM »

We are the One True Church of Christ.  The one He founded.
Except you are not one, but many.
Yes, the many sees founded by the Apostles in the East.  Not like the lone outpost in Rome.
Christ prayed for us Christians to be one as He and the Father are one. He did not pray for us to be many.
Yes, Three Persons in One Godhead.  If you want unity like the Vatican, try Allah.
Again, I am trying to talk about the differences in the ecclesiologies of our Churches and you keep changing the subject back to that city-state again. I wish you would stop being so evasive and stay on topic.
I'm not evasive at all, and am on topic: that you don't like to stare truth in the face, and prefer to go deeper into denial in about the structure of your ecclesiastical organization isn't my problem.

Elijahmary insists we have to march in lockstep with what the sovereign of the Vatican says if we are going to join forces against liberalization of abortion laws.  We're not going to Canossa, but you all seem to overlook that. It would be like the US committing itself to Stalin's diktats to join forces to fight Hilter: the limited ways the US, Britain and France did just that took fifty years to undo, and almost didn't.

Wow, Canossa is one obscure reference! and I thought I was fairly knowledgeable about European history..... lol
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« Reply #150 on: January 31, 2011, 10:03:23 PM »

tuesdayschild: no, actually written in the early 20th century.

Examples: any of the novels written by Betty Smith, author of "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn" - that's not the only one, just the only one I can think of right now (just had a root canal and not feeling very literary right now! Wink ).
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« Reply #151 on: February 01, 2011, 10:04:47 PM »

What about rape? What if a young girl is raped and is impregnated? It's up to her to carry out the pregnancy and raise the child, further ruining her life beyond the fact of just getting raped, but instead having the offspring of a rapist in her to remind her every second that she was brutally raped? Until the bastard child comes out, anyway. Then what? Turn your back on a newborn? Doesnt that make her the sinner? Aren't you making the victim out to be the criminal?
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« Reply #152 on: February 02, 2011, 08:05:31 AM »

What about rape? What if a young girl is raped and is impregnated? It's up to her to carry out the pregnancy and raise the child, further ruining her life beyond the fact of just getting raped, but instead having the offspring of a rapist in her to remind her every second that she was brutally raped? Until the bastard child comes out, anyway. Then what? Turn your back on a newborn? Doesnt that make her the sinner? Aren't you making the victim out to be the criminal?

While women are busy "carrying out a pregnancy" they are either carrying a real person from the moment of conception or they are not.  And if they are in every instance EXCEPT rape or incest...don't you find that strange?
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« Reply #153 on: July 12, 2011, 05:06:32 PM »

"The Archdiocese of Barcelona has announced that it has no plans to excommunicate Rev. Manuel Pousa i Engroñat, having found that the Catholic priest had not had any “primary complicity” in an abortion performed on a young woman. This was despite the Spanish priest’s autobiography in which he recounts that he had actually paid for the procedure.

Known as ‘Pare Manel’ (Father Manuel, in his native Catalonian), the priest was called to book by the diocese following the publication of a book entitled Padre Manel: Closer to earth than heaven, which consists of the results of interviews with the journalist, Francesc Bouxeda. He has served more than 30 years among the poor of the Nou Barris district of Barcelona. In the book, he recalls that he paid for a young woman’s abortion, allegedly so as to avoid putting her life at risk.

Archbishop Lluis Martinez Sistach, upon learning of the revelations, directed that a canonical law inquiry be made into the matter by diocesan judicial vicars, Rev. Xavier Bastida and Rev. Juan Benito, as well as a member of the ecclesiastical tribunal, Rev. Ramon Batlle.

On April 18, released a communiqué that noted the tribunal’s finding that “Rev. Manuel Pousa i Engroñat does not appear to have incurred a canonical punishment,” as established by Canon 1398 of the Canon Law of the Catholic Church. The article in question establishes that anyone who procures an abortion incurs an automatic (latae sententiae) excommunication. The statement from the diocese also reiterated that the well-known priest “always exercises his work of service to the poorest and most marginalized in accordance with the teachings of the Church and its social doctrine and with respect for all human life.”

Ok, I see that only Orthodox are confused.....  Embarrassed
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« Reply #154 on: July 12, 2011, 05:34:13 PM »

/\  "The smoke of Satan,", warned Paul VI, "has found its way into the Church through the fissures."  It was an anguished warning that caused great shock and scandal, even within the Catholic world.
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« Reply #155 on: July 12, 2011, 05:57:38 PM »

What about rape? What if a young girl is raped and is impregnated? It's up to her to carry out the pregnancy and raise the child, further ruining her life beyond the fact of just getting raped, but instead having the offspring of a rapist in her to remind her every second that she was brutally raped? Until the bastard child comes out, anyway. Then what? Turn your back on a newborn? Doesnt that make her the sinner? Aren't you making the victim out to be the criminal?

Abortion is not a rewind button.
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