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Author Topic: Help: Russian Byzantine Catholic? Or just Russian Orthodox or Roman Catholic?  (Read 6410 times) Average Rating: 0
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rimlyanin
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« on: January 24, 2011, 05:40:39 PM »

Hello,

I am new to this forum and hoping  for some suggestions in defining (the practice of) my faith.

I was raised (novus ordo) Roman Catholic but through my own research and experience in recent years I have been significantly drawn first by my family towards tradition Roman Catholicism and later by my spouse towards Russian Orthodoxy.  I am particularly drawn to the eastern liturgy, but I am also convinced of papal primacy (if not supremacy).  I am also quite familiar with the arguments of legitimacy on both sides, but even so, I am convinced that Roman Catholicism and Russian Orthodoxy are not mutually exclusive because both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches are of one Apostolic Faith, and it is for this reason I believe unity of the Eastern and Western Churches is inevitable.   Not to mention that unity is my greatest hope simply for the fact that I have come to respect and adore aspects of both traditions!  I have decided, therefore, that the reasonable compromise, for my situation and in accordance with my beliefs, is to become a Russian Byzantine Catholic.  But my question is how to realize that faith/practice?
 
I believe it is vitally important for a person and his/her family both spiritually and sacramentally to be a member of a church/parish in order to nurture and develop his/her faith.  Fortunately where I live, I am able to go to a Latin Tridentine Mass, a Byzantine (Ruthenian) Liturgy, and a Russian Orthodox Liturgy, so I alternate going to each one.  I am not, however, able to go to a Russian Byzantine Catholic Church.  My spouse is (and so far will be nothing but) Russian Orthodox.  My children were baptized Roman Catholic but are still very young.    If we go to the Russian Orthodox Liturgy, neither I nor my children can receive Communion.  If we go to the Roman Mass or Byzantine Liturgy, my wife cannot receive Communion. 

Can a person in my situation legitimately live a Russian Byzantine Catholic Faith?  If so, how would I go about doing it?  Or would it be best, all things considered, to just pick a side (Catholic or Orthodox) and just go with it?   

Any suggestions and/or criticisms are welcome!
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« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2011, 06:11:11 PM »

If you're not sold on Papal Infallibility or Papal Supremacy, I'd suggest doing some digging around in Church documents (particularly the Vatican 1 definitions and anathemas here, the relevant sections regarding the Pope being session 4 as well as the more recent Lumen Gentium) and seeing if either of those two teachings sit well with you. If you like the East and can accept every single doctrine and dogma that Rome puts out, then Eastern Catholic is a good choice for you. If you can't really accept those two dogmas, then Russian Orthodox would be the route you want to take.

If you want to look through some early church documents and do some additional homework, then http://www.ccel.org/ is a good bet; the section titled Church Fathers on the right will give you all sorts of good stuff, including the first seven Ecumenical Councils, and loads of writings from the Church Fathers.

Above all, take your time discerning, pray for guidance, and talk to both a Catholic priest and an Orthodox priest to help your understanding. Smiley

May God bless and keep you on your journey!

Fixed a hyperlink
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« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2011, 08:00:54 PM »

Can I ask what makes you think the Russian Byzantine Catholic is your best choice? Especially over Ruthenian? Is that just because your wife is Russian Orthodox so you want to keep the Russian aspect? If you believe that the unity of the true church is hinged on Rome, then you should be Catholic and it doesn't really matter if you're Latin Rite, N.O.Roman Rite, or one of the Eastern Catholic churches since you would necessarily believe that all are equally true, if one tradition just serves your journey to God better.

If you and your children remain Catholic, you should obviously talk to a priest, but I can't see why you wouldn't be able to use the same prayer books as your wife to keep a unified tradition at home. Maybe I'm missing something.

Just as an aside, the anathemas of Vatican I have not survived in the cannon so it is not as cut and dry as that. I would recommend Klaus Shatz Papal Primacy as ah really balanced look at the topic. Although he is a Catholic, he presents a very scholarly take and does not gloss over these challenges.
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« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2011, 11:08:47 AM »

Can I ask what makes you think the Russian Byzantine Catholic is your best choice? Especially over Ruthenian? Is that just because your wife is Russian Orthodox so you want to keep the Russian aspect?

If you and your children remain Catholic, you should obviously talk to a priest, but I can't see why you wouldn't be able to use the same prayer books as your wife to keep a unified tradition at home. Maybe I'm missing something.

Yes, because my wife is Russian Orthodox.  Besides the fact that I have been particularly drawn to the Russian tradition, if I go the route of Russian Byzantine Catholic I figure I would most be able to participate in my wife's faith, i.e. prayer books, liturgy, etc., without giving up being Catholic...same for my kids.  (There sure is a lot to learn!)

If you believe that the unity of the true church is hinged on Rome, then you should be Catholic and it doesn't really matter if you're Latin Rite, N.O.Roman Rite, or one of the Eastern Catholic churches since you would necessarily believe that all are equally true, if one tradition just serves your journey to God better.

Just as an aside, the anathemas of Vatican I have not survived in the cannon so it is not as cut and dry as that. I would recommend Klaus Shatz Papal Primacy as ah really balanced look at the topic. Although he is a Catholic, he presents a very scholarly take and does not gloss over these challenges.

I believe that the unity of the true church is hinged on the Apostolic tradition, and I am not about to try and decide who the winner of the debate between East and West is if the leadership of the respective Churches haven't been able to do it for 1000 years.  That is not to say, of course, that my research will not continue in earnest!  Thank you for the suggested research sources.
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rimlyanin
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« Reply #4 on: January 25, 2011, 11:41:15 AM »

If you're not sold on Papal Infallibility or Papal Supremacy, I'd suggest doing some digging around in Church documents (particularly the Vatican 1 definitions and anathemas here, the relevant sections regarding the Pope being session 4 as well as the more recent Lumen Gentium) and seeing if either of those two teachings sit well with you. If you like the East and can accept every single doctrine and dogma that Rome puts out, then Eastern Catholic is a good choice for you. If you can't really accept those two dogmas, then Russian Orthodox would be the route you want to take.

Great sites, thank you.  The teachings sit well enough with me because of the sources (authors) and references (tradition and Saints' writings).  But the same can be said for the Orthodox argument:  The the original Gospel greek texts cited could be (and have been) interpreted a bit differently, and for every tradition and Saint cited in the West, there is a seemingly equal and opposite tradition and Saint in the East. 

If you want to look through some early church documents and do some additional homework, then http://www.ccel.org/ is a good bet; the section titled Church Fathers on the right will give you all sorts of good stuff, including the first seven Ecumenical Councils, and loads of writings from the Church Fathers.

My research continues...thank you for the research sources.

Above all, take your time discerning, pray for guidance, and talk to both a Catholic priest and an Orthodox priest to help your understanding. Smiley

May God bless and keep you on your journey!

Thank you!
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« Reply #5 on: January 25, 2011, 12:06:43 PM »

If you want to be specifically Russian Eastern Catholic, then you should know that only a few churches exist in the whole world, so this is likely not a viable option. I think all of the Roman Catholic churches in Russia are Latin rite. To be Russian is to be Orthodox, at least for most people.
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« Reply #6 on: January 25, 2011, 12:30:32 PM »

If you want to be specifically Russian Eastern Catholic, then you should know that only a few churches exist in the whole world, so this is likely not a viable option.

That was the crux of my question...that is the challenge:  Am I (sufficiently) Russian Byzantine Catholic if without a church/parish I were to practice the full Russian Orthodox Faith, yet retain allegience to Rome?  Solovyov seemed to think so.  Or must I choose a more "viable" option?

To be Russian is to be Orthodox, at least for most people.

In my experience with Russians, Russian and Orthodox are one and the same.  But at the same time, no Russian would call him/herself "Orthodox Russian"...as it seems they are Russian first!
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« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2011, 12:39:53 PM »

There's more ukrainian eastern catholic churches ,,some use the Old Church Slovanic ,that the Russian Othodox church uses....You Can Pretend it's a russian eastern Catholic Church,,but i would go for  the Real Mc Coy the Russian Orthodox Church...Because the Other ones Are very pale imitation of Holy Orthodoxy...why settle for a cheap copy..... Grin
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« Reply #8 on: January 25, 2011, 12:41:18 PM »

I were to practice the full Russian Orthodox Faith, yet retain allegience to Rome?  

How would you be able to practice the full Russian Orthodox Faith and retain allegiance to Rome?
It doesn't seem possible to me, given the very different beliefs.
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« Reply #9 on: January 25, 2011, 01:05:42 PM »

The two paths you envision are not reconcilable.  A Russian Orthodox, who is so by faith and conviction and not merely so by ethnicity, will not be able to commune in any papal church, Byzantine Catholic or otherwise.  It is just that simple.

It appears from your replies that you are by conviction Roman Catholic, but have come to appreciate the "Byzantine" rite and some of the Russian ethnic customs grounded in the Orthodox faith.  But even if you were able to find a papal church with the Byzantine rite and Russian ethnic customs, it would still not be an Orthodox Church, and your wife would not be able to commune.

It is a sad and lamentable situation, but you and your wife are members of two separated churches: you may not take communion in your wife's Church and she may not do so in yours.  There is no resolution here unless one of you converts to the other's faith.
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« Reply #10 on: January 25, 2011, 01:17:16 PM »

The two paths you envision are not reconcilable.  A Russian Orthodox, who is so by faith and conviction and not merely so by ethnicity, will not be able to commune in any papal church, Byzantine Catholic or otherwise.  It is just that simple.

Yes. While a Byzantine Catholic priest might allow your wife to take communion at his parish, she would be turning her back on Orthodoxy by doing so.

Papal supremacy/ infalliblity are not just local variations of the Christian tradition- they have been proclaimed as universal dogmas by Rome. One can only accept or reject them. If you accept them, you can't be Orthodox. If you reject them, it doesn't make any sense to remain under Rome, since you fall under anathema.   
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« Reply #11 on: January 25, 2011, 01:30:37 PM »


It is a sad and lamentable situation, but you and your wife are members of two separated churches: you may not take communion in your wife's Church and she may not do so in yours.  There is no resolution here unless one of you converts to the other's faith.

I would expect the correspondent knows the legalisms of the situation.

I think he is asking about how to forge a shared spiritual life in a deplorable situation of schism.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++

To the original poster:  Have you read anything of Father Lev Gillet?  Or Father George Maloney?

You may certainly keep whatever Orthodox calendar that your wife keeps and use a Russian Orthodox prayerbook for your family's prayer discipline.  Learning more about and coming to a genuine desire to venerate Russian Orthodox saints should be a focus of your new life...while keeping those of your own tradition that you hold dear.

One of the best things that you can take away from a Forum such as this one is a broad exposure to saints of all ages across all Orthodox confessions.

You'll need to receive sacraments and if I were you, I'd find an eastern Catholic Church with a pastor who is sympathetic to your family's needs and simply stick with them, regardless of the jurisdiction.

If you are juggling old and new calendar then I suggest strongly that you choose your wife's calendar, following that most closely with your prayer discipline, and do your best to be mindful enough of your own eastern Calendar not to be totally lost on the days when you attend liturgy there.  

Keeping visual elements of both liturgical seasons in the house will help the children as they grow to move into the liturgical life of both Churches seamlessly for eventually, over the years, their own internal clocks will tell them where they are on which calendar...like muscle memory.

I wish you well and pray that God is merciful and generous to you and your family.

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« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2011, 03:13:01 PM »

There's more ukrainian eastern catholic churches ,,some use the Old Church Slovanic ,that the Russian Othodox church uses....You Can Pretend it's a russian eastern Catholic Church,,but i would go for  the Real Mc Coy the Russian Orthodox Church...Because the Other ones Are very pale imitation of Holy Orthodoxy...why settle for a cheap copy..... Grin

I have not attended a Ukranian Catholic Church, but here is no doubt, at least where I am, that the Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic liturgy/practices "visually" pale in comparison to the Russian Orthodox with respect to eastern/traditional orthodoxy.  I cannot comment as to authenticity, of course.
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« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2011, 03:31:31 PM »

The two paths you envision are not reconcilable.  A Russian Orthodox, who is so by faith and conviction and not merely so by ethnicity, will not be able to commune in any papal church, Byzantine Catholic or otherwise.  It is just that simple.

It appears from your replies that you are by conviction Roman Catholic, but have come to appreciate the "Byzantine" rite and some of the Russian ethnic customs grounded in the Orthodox faith.  But even if you were able to find a papal church with the Byzantine rite and Russian ethnic customs, it would still not be an Orthodox Church, and your wife would not be able to commune.

It is a sad and lamentable situation, but you and your wife are members of two separated churches: you may not take communion in your wife's Church and she may not do so in yours.  There is no resolution here unless one of you converts to the other's faith.

I guess that is what I am trying to figure out:  whether the two paths are reconcilable.  I actually think they may be...to a point.  I am not trying to reconcile the churches per se, I am simply trying to reconcile my faith/spritual life with my convictions and family situation as best as possible.  The differences between the churches are viewed differently from each side.  I as a Catholic can and am encouraged to participate in the Sacraments of the Orthodox Church because the Sacraments are viewed as legitimate...the Orthodox simply won't let me.  While for my Orthodox wife, the Catholic Church welcomes her participation in the Sacraments, but the Orthodox Church forbids it.  This has led me to think that I can be a practicing Russian Orthodox, but with allegiance to Rome.  Reception of the Sacraments from the Catholic Church will have to be done "on the side", as bad as that sounds.
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« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2011, 03:33:27 PM »

There's more ukrainian eastern catholic churches ,,some use the Old Church Slovanic ,that the Russian Othodox church uses....You Can Pretend it's a russian eastern Catholic Church,,but i would go for  the Real Mc Coy the Russian Orthodox Church...Because the Other ones Are very pale imitation of Holy Orthodoxy...why settle for a cheap copy..... Grin

Exactly!  Choosing an Eastern Rite papal church over an Orthodox Catholic Church would be like choosing a zircon over a diamond.  Why take a imitation when you are offered the real thing?  Pretending its a diamond doesn't make it so!

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« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2011, 03:37:50 PM »

The two paths you envision are not reconcilable.  A Russian Orthodox, who is so by faith and conviction and not merely so by ethnicity, will not be able to commune in any papal church, Byzantine Catholic or otherwise.  It is just that simple.

Yes. While a Byzantine Catholic priest might allow your wife to take communion at his parish, she would be turning her back on Orthodoxy by doing so.

Papal supremacy/ infalliblity are not just local variations of the Christian tradition- they have been proclaimed as universal dogmas by Rome. One can only accept or reject them. If you accept them, you can't be Orthodox. If you reject them, it doesn't make any sense to remain under Rome, since you fall under anathema.   

I do not reject papal supremacy/infallibility.
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« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2011, 03:49:00 PM »

This has led me to think that I can be a practicing Russian Orthodox, but with allegiance to Rome.  Reception of the Sacraments from the Catholic Church will have to be done "on the side", as bad as that sounds.

You would be committing blasphemy while receiving Communion in the Orthodox Church

I do not reject papal supremacy/infallibility.

So you are Catholic and choose the Parish to attend from all the sui iuris Churches that have Churches close to you. Case closed.
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« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2011, 03:56:07 PM »

The two paths you envision are not reconcilable.  A Russian Orthodox, who is so by faith and conviction and not merely so by ethnicity, will not be able to commune in any papal church, Byzantine Catholic or otherwise.  It is just that simple.

Yes. While a Byzantine Catholic priest might allow your wife to take communion at his parish, she would be turning her back on Orthodoxy by doing so.

Papal supremacy/ infalliblity are not just local variations of the Christian tradition- they have been proclaimed as universal dogmas by Rome. One can only accept or reject them. If you accept them, you can't be Orthodox. If you reject them, it doesn't make any sense to remain under Rome, since you fall under anathema.   

I do not reject papal supremacy/infallibility.

Then its best you stay where you are or be satisfied with a zicon rather than a diamond.  The word COMMUNION designates 'Common Union'.  There is no common union between the Orthodox Catholic Church and the Roman Catholic Church at this time.  To be a member of either church you must accept the ENTIRE faith of said church which is explained in their doctrines and dogmas.  You can't just pick and choose what you want and be a legimate member of either church.  That is Protestantism.  And its certainly shows the illegmaticy of some of those who practice the Orthodox ritual and customs and claim they are one with Rome while not adhering to all the papal doctrines.

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« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2011, 04:06:40 PM »

I think he is asking about how to forge a shared spiritual life in a deplorable situation of schism.

Exactly.

To the original poster:  Have you read anything of Father Lev Gillet?  Or Father George Maloney?

I have not.  Who are they? 

You may certainly keep whatever Orthodox calendar that your wife keeps and use a Russian Orthodox prayerbook for your family's prayer discipline.  Learning more about and coming to a genuine desire to venerate Russian Orthodox saints should be a focus of your new life...while keeping those of your own tradition that you hold dear.

One of the best things that you can take away from a Forum such as this one is a broad exposure to saints of all ages across all Orthodox confessions.

You'll need to receive sacraments and if I were you, I'd find an eastern Catholic Church with a pastor who is sympathetic to your family's needs and simply stick with them, regardless of the jurisdiction.

If you are juggling old and new calendar then I suggest strongly that you choose your wife's calendar, following that most closely with your prayer discipline, and do your best to be mindful enough of your own eastern Calendar not to be totally lost on the days when you attend liturgy there.  

Keeping visual elements of both liturgical seasons in the house will help the children as they grow to move into the liturgical life of both Churches seamlessly for eventually, over the years, their own internal clocks will tell them where they are on which calendar...like muscle memory.

I will take your suggestions to heart.  Much of what you mention I have already tried to implement and may be the best I can do.

I wish you well and pray that God is merciful and generous to you and your family.

Thank you.
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« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2011, 04:16:52 PM »

The two paths you envision are not reconcilable.  A Russian Orthodox, who is so by faith and conviction and not merely so by ethnicity, will not be able to commune in any papal church, Byzantine Catholic or otherwise.  It is just that simple.

Yes. While a Byzantine Catholic priest might allow your wife to take communion at his parish, she would be turning her back on Orthodoxy by doing so.

Papal supremacy/ infalliblity are not just local variations of the Christian tradition- they have been proclaimed as universal dogmas by Rome. One can only accept or reject them. If you accept them, you can't be Orthodox. If you reject them, it doesn't make any sense to remain under Rome, since you fall under anathema.   

I do not reject papal supremacy/infallibility.
Then the case is closed on your Orthodoxy.  You accept the Vatican's claims, so you belong to the Vatican.
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« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2011, 04:17:18 PM »

This has led me to think that I can be a practicing Russian Orthodox, but with allegiance to Rome.  Reception of the Sacraments from the Catholic Church will have to be done "on the side", as bad as that sounds.

You would be committing blasphemy while receiving Communion in the Orthodox Church

I do not intend to receive (nor am I allowed by the priest to receive) Communion in the Orthodox Church as long as I remain a Catholic.

I do not reject papal supremacy/infallibility.

I did not state that I 'accept' or 'reject' papal supremacy/infallibility.  That was (obviously) a failed attempt to inject a bit of humor into the discussion...with no intention of making light of the subject.

So you are Catholic and choose the Parish to attend from all the sui iuris Churches that have Churches close to you. Case closed.

If I thought is was so black and white in my heart, I couldn't agree with you more.
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« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2011, 04:22:28 PM »

This has led me to think that I can be a practicing Russian Orthodox, but with allegiance to Rome. 
No, you cannot. The reason why your wife cannot partake of the sacraments in the RCC and you cannot partake of the sacraments in the OC is because you each belong to a different Church. You are not part of the same community, not in communion. As long as you hold Catholic beliefs, you cannot be a member of the Orthodox Church or participate in her sacramental life. (Your personal prayer and devotional life is something else.)


Quote
Reception of the Sacraments from the Catholic Church will have to be done "on the side", as bad as that sounds.
You're right. This is a very bad idea.
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« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2011, 04:24:56 PM »

To be a member of either church you must accept the ENTIRE faith of said church which is explained in their doctrines and dogmas.  You can't just pick and choose what you want and be a legimate member of either church.  That is Protestantism.  

This pretty much sums it up, IMHO.
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« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2011, 04:32:31 PM »

If you're not sold on Papal Infallibility or Papal Supremacy, I'd suggest doing some digging around in Church documents (particularly the Vatican 1 definitions and anathemas here, the relevant sections regarding the Pope being session 4 as well as the more recent Lumen Gentium) and seeing if either of those two teachings sit well with you. If you like the East and can accept every single doctrine and dogma that Rome puts out, then Eastern Catholic is a good choice for you. If you can't really accept those two dogmas, then Russian Orthodox would be the route you want to take.

Great sites, thank you.  The teachings sit well enough with me because of the sources (authors) and references (tradition and Saints' writings).  But the same can be said for the Orthodox argument:  The the original Gospel greek texts cited could be (and have been) interpreted a bit differently, and for every tradition and Saint cited in the West, there is a seemingly equal and opposite tradition and Saint in the East.
Agh, I know, it's so aggravating if we want to go by arguments to help us decide; if we went on arguments alone, we'd never be able to make a decision. I think we both know that at this point.  Cheesy That's why also praying like a madman every day for God's wisdom and guidance is key!  Grin
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« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2011, 05:21:44 PM »

To be a member of either church you must accept the ENTIRE faith of said church which is explained in their doctrines and dogmas.  You can't just pick and choose what you want and be a legimate member of either church.  That is Protestantism.  And its certainly shows the illegmaticy of some of those who practice the Orthodox ritual and customs and claim they are one with Rome while not adhering to all the papal doctrines.

I accept the fact and agree that in order to be a member of either church you must accept the ENTIRE faith of said church and can't just pick and choose what I want.  But my understanding from Pope Pius X's "nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter" statement is that the doctrines and dogmas of the Catholic Church do not forbid me from living and practicing the daily life of a Russian Orthodox by attending the liturgy, venerating icons, and following the calendar and prayer life just as members of the Russian Orthodox do.  My guess is that the Russian Orthodox Church also does not forbid me from the doing so.  Or does it?  
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« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2011, 05:24:15 PM »

Schizophrenical behaviour is not forbidden.
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rimlyanin
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« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2011, 05:26:32 PM »

That's why also praying like a madman every day for God's wisdom and guidance is key!  Grin

I have no doubt that both Catholics and Orthodox can agree on that!
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« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2011, 05:31:27 PM »

Schizophrenical behaviour is not forbidden.

Then there is hope!  Grin
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« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2011, 05:47:39 PM »

...living and practicing the daily life of a Russian Orthodox by attending the liturgy, venerating icons, and following the calendar and prayer life just as members of the Russian Orthodox do.  My guess is that the Russian Orthodox Church also does not forbid me from the doing so.  Or does it?  

I guess the only question then is why anyone would want to act like or be a pretend- Orthodox Christian when they don't believe what the Orthodox Church teaches? In Orthodoxy, praxis and belief are not separate, but a "seamless garment." I'm guessing that's the same in the RCC, isn't it? So why would anyone not want to act like a Roman Catholic when they do believe what that Church teaches?

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« Reply #29 on: January 25, 2011, 05:49:24 PM »

...living and practicing the daily life of a Russian Orthodox by attending the liturgy, venerating icons, and following the calendar and prayer life just as members of the Russian Orthodox do.  My guess is that the Russian Orthodox Church also does not forbid me from the doing so.  Or does it?  

I guess the only question then is why anyone would want to act like or be a pretend- Orthodox Christian when they don't believe what the Orthodox Church teaches? In Orthodoxy, praxis and belief are not separate, but a "seamless garment." I'm guessing that's the same in the RCC, isn't it? So why would anyone not want to act like a Roman Catholic when they do believe what that Church teaches?


We believe that pretty much most of what Russian Orthodoxy teaches is, in fact, Catholic. Trinity, sacraments, veneration of the saints and icons, Liturgical prayer, etc, etc, etc.
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« Reply #30 on: January 25, 2011, 05:57:06 PM »

We believe that pretty much most of what Russian Orthodoxy teaches is, in fact, Catholic. Trinity, sacraments, veneration of the saints and icons, Liturgical prayer, etc, etc, etc.

Take my word for it - they don't. Orthodoxy and Catholicism, while there are similarities, are totally different.
Btw, this seems to be a misunderstanding that I encounter frequently from RCs. One problem may be is that we often use the same words and mean totally different things. Please, believe me when I tell you that they are not the same, and you are fooling yourself to no good end if you think that they are the same. Or even equivalent.
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« Reply #31 on: January 25, 2011, 05:57:56 PM »

To be a member of either church you must accept the ENTIRE faith of said church which is explained in their doctrines and dogmas.  You can't just pick and choose what you want and be a legimate member of either church.  That is Protestantism.  And its certainly shows the illegmaticy of some of those who practice the Orthodox ritual and customs and claim they are one with Rome while not adhering to all the papal doctrines.

I accept the fact and agree that in order to be a member of either church you must accept the ENTIRE faith of said church and can't just pick and choose what I want.  But my understanding from Pope Pius X's "nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter" statement is that the doctrines and dogmas of the Catholic Church do not forbid me from living and practicing the daily life of a Russian Orthodox by attending the liturgy, venerating icons, and following the calendar and prayer life just as members of the Russian Orthodox do.  My guess is that the Russian Orthodox Church also does not forbid me from the doing so.  Or does it?  


No, the Orthodox Church does not have a ban on live-action roleplaying... it's just kind of lame. 
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« Reply #32 on: January 25, 2011, 06:00:18 PM »

just go byzantine eastern catholic that way you are still under the pope then when you figire out the other stuff in orthodoxy thats gonna seal the deal you can make a sound spiritual decision God does not want to splinter the church up more than it is
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« Reply #33 on: January 25, 2011, 06:01:08 PM »

We believe that pretty much most of what Russian Orthodoxy teaches is, in fact, Catholic. Trinity, sacraments, veneration of the saints and icons, Liturgical prayer, etc, etc, etc.

Take my word for it - they don't. Orthodoxy and Catholicism, while there are similarities, are totally different.
Btw, this seems to be a misunderstanding that I encounter frequently from RCs. One problem may be is that we often use the same words and mean totally different things. Please, believe me when I tell you that they are not the same, and you are fooling yourself to no good end if you think that they are the same. Or even equivalent.
No, I will not take your word for it becaue I have researched the matter myself. I read from Gregory Palamas, the Eastern Fathers and modern Eastern orthodox theologians. I think most of what you believe is what Catholics believes, regardless of how anti-Latin the modern approach to EO theology  really is. I realize that there are real differences, but not many.
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« Reply #34 on: January 25, 2011, 06:02:49 PM »

Schizophrenical behaviour is not forbidden.

Then there is hope!  Grin


I like you.............
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« Reply #35 on: January 25, 2011, 06:03:59 PM »

We believe that pretty much most of what Russian Orthodoxy teaches is, in fact, Catholic. Trinity, sacraments, veneration of the saints and icons, Liturgical prayer, etc, etc, etc.

Take my word for it - they don't. Orthodoxy and Catholicism, while there are similarities, are totally different.
Btw, this seems to be a misunderstanding that I encounter frequently from RCs. One problem may be is that we often use the same words and mean totally different things. Please, believe me when I tell you that they are not the same, and you are fooling yourself to no good end if you think that they are the same. Or even equivalent.


in reality the orthodox church is more catholic than the catholics.
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« Reply #36 on: January 25, 2011, 06:04:27 PM »

To be a member of either church you must accept the ENTIRE faith of said church which is explained in their doctrines and dogmas.  You can't just pick and choose what you want and be a legimate member of either church.  That is Protestantism.  And its certainly shows the illegmaticy of some of those who practice the Orthodox ritual and customs and claim they are one with Rome while not adhering to all the papal doctrines.

I accept the fact and agree that in order to be a member of either church you must accept the ENTIRE faith of said church and can't just pick and choose what I want.  But my understanding from Pope Pius X's "nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter" statement is that the doctrines and dogmas of the Catholic Church do not forbid me from living and practicing the daily life of a Russian Orthodox by attending the liturgy, venerating icons, and following the calendar and prayer life just as members of the Russian Orthodox do.  My guess is that the Russian Orthodox Church also does not forbid me from the doing so.  Or does it?  
You are asking the wrong person, as Pope Pius' words have no autority for us.
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« Reply #37 on: January 25, 2011, 07:21:50 PM »

To be a member of either church you must accept the ENTIRE faith of said church which is explained in their doctrines and dogmas.  You can't just pick and choose what you want and be a legimate member of either church.  That is Protestantism.  And its certainly shows the illegmaticy of some of those who practice the Orthodox ritual and customs and claim they are one with Rome while not adhering to all the papal doctrines.

I accept the fact and agree that in order to be a member of either church you must accept the ENTIRE faith of said church and can't just pick and choose what I want.  But my understanding from Pope Pius X's "nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter" statement is that the doctrines and dogmas of the Catholic Church do not forbid me from living and practicing the daily life of a Russian Orthodox by attending the liturgy, venerating icons, and following the calendar and prayer life just as members of the Russian Orthodox do.  My guess is that the Russian Orthodox Church also does not forbid me from the doing so.  Or does it? 

No, it does not.  But I thought we were talking about Communion which is still forbidden.  It seems to me that you are making the same mistake so many non-Orthodox do.  And that is you are judging Orthodoxy by what's on the outside rather than what's on the inside.  It's what so many Roman Catholic do.  Both Latin and Eastern Rites.  It's not what's on the outside that counts.  It's what's on the inside.

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« Reply #38 on: January 25, 2011, 07:50:21 PM »

on the other hand i think the papacy has become a crutch for you maybe you shiould just go fully russian orthodox, you gotta get over the pope thing a bishop is a bishop is a bishop is a bishop thats it your wife is russian orthodox? hey man be availible to your family russian orthodox.






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« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2011, 07:58:40 PM »

I think he is asking about how to forge a shared spiritual life in a deplorable situation of schism.

Exactly.

To the original poster:  Have you read anything of Father Lev Gillet?  Or Father George Maloney?

I have not.  Who are they? 


I will write to you privately.  All they are going to do now is proselytize you, which is not allowed here on the Forum of course...but that's how it goes on the slippery slopes of schism.

M.
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« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2011, 08:36:42 PM »

I think he is asking about how to forge a shared spiritual life in a deplorable situation of schism.

Exactly.

To the original poster:  Have you read anything of Father Lev Gillet?  Or Father George Maloney?


I have not.  Who are they?


I will write to you privately.  All they are going to do now is proselytize you, which is not allowed here on the Forum of course...but that's how it goes on the slippery slopes of schism.

M.



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« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2011, 08:40:19 PM »

yeah no converting in he conversion forum that makes sense no witnessing please christians we are not going to allow it.......gimme a break c'mooooooooooooooon Russian orthodox!
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« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2011, 08:48:08 PM »




I case you haven't Noticed ,it is in the Convert Issues part of the forum...... police






I think he is asking about how to forge a shared spiritual life in a deplorable situation of schism.

Exactly.

To the original poster:  Have you read anything of Father Lev Gillet?  Or Father George Maloney?

I have not.  Who are they? 


I will write to you privately.  All they are going to do now is proselytize you, which is not allowed here on the Forum of course...but that's how it goes on the slippery slopes of schism.

M.
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« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2011, 08:48:36 PM »

I think he is asking about how to forge a shared spiritual life in a deplorable situation of schism.

Exactly.

To the original poster:  Have you read anything of Father Lev Gillet?  Or Father George Maloney?


I have not.  Who are they?


I will write to you privately.  All they are going to do now is proselytize you, which is not allowed here on the Forum of course...but that's how it goes on the slippery slopes of schism.

M.



Pot calling the kettle back Mary?

Orthodoc



Are you suggesting that I am proselytizing by speaking to a fellow Catholic, as a fellow Catholic,  outside this thread...when the man has already said he is not asking about converting but is asking how to lead a spiritual life that suits his family circumstance?

He's free to come and go as he likes, but you all are going after him so there's no point in my trying to address HIS concerns here.  If he was talking about converting, I'd have nothing to say.

I am getting out of your way.

M.
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« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2011, 09:04:02 PM »

lets meet in the mddle Serbian Orthodox!
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