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Author Topic: No Communion for Arnold?  (Read 14536 times) Average Rating: 0
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Anastasios
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« Reply #45 on: May 04, 2004, 11:39:07 PM »

Peter J:

Yes but Bush has already done some measures to undo the gravity of abortion, such as signing the partial birth abortion ban, which Clinton did not do.  R v W may never be overturned, but at least we can work to restrict abortion.

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« Reply #46 on: May 04, 2004, 11:52:11 PM »

It's ok Jennifer we all love you anyway, but just save us all some time and energy and just admit that you are pro-abortion.  

I am appalled that you would suggest that I am "pro-abortion."  There is absolutely nothing that I have written that could suggest that I support abortion.  

In fact, I have been very clear that I am opposed to abortion.  

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« Reply #47 on: May 04, 2004, 11:56:07 PM »

He's Antiochian that is close enough.

No it's not even remotely close enough.  

But I find it incredibly bizarre that an Orthodox Christian would be so 'supportive' of an ultimate expression of 'western' catholicism.  

I think it proves something that I've believed for some time, scratch an Orthodox convert and you'll find a western christian lurking underneath.  Sure he/she likes to play 'eastern.'  Icons are 'cool' and we all like to pretend we're unique.  But when it comes down to it, he/she's just as western as a Roman Catholic.  

Which of course raises an interesting question, can Orthodoxy survive in the west?  I'm not optimistic.

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« Reply #48 on: May 04, 2004, 11:57:48 PM »

Peter J:

Yes but Bush has already done some measures to undo the gravity of abortion, such as signing the partial birth abortion ban, which Clinton did not do.  R v W may never be overturned, but at least we can work to restrict abortion.

anastasios

But it's a meaningless gesture and he knows it because the Supreme Court has already decided a case which struck down a law almost identical to the partial birth abortion act.  

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« Reply #49 on: May 05, 2004, 12:02:12 AM »

I'm also waiting for the "moment of truth." She should read what I posted from EWTN. I would like to see her explain that away.....
 ;)LOL, woooooohooooo Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy Cheesy
Ahhhh, I needed that little humor break.
Most of the time I'm accused of being a "protestant"  Tongue Tongue Tongue Tongue

I've tried to explain this numerous times but you still don't get it.  Catholics are different from protestants.  A website associated with the catholic church isn't the catholic church.  It lacks the authority of the Church.  When I want spiritual guidance, I don't go to the web or turn on the TV or radio.  I speak to my priest in confession.  

BTW, Nacho you are essentially a protestant.  You have not jettisoned your protestant background.  You still don't understand what it means to be a catholic.  It's not something that can be learned from a website or from reading a book.  It's something that comes about through living a catholic life in a catholic community.  
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« Reply #50 on: May 05, 2004, 12:03:52 AM »

Just because the SC struck down a law doesn't mean it will always. It can be very inconsistent.

As far as your jab at Western converts to Orthodoxy, I know people like you describe but Nacho doesn't prove your point at all.

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« Reply #51 on: May 05, 2004, 12:23:19 AM »

Just because the SC struck down a law doesn't mean it will always. It can be very inconsistent.

As far as your jab at Western converts to Orthodoxy, I know people like you describe but Nacho doesn't prove your point at all.

anastasios

But the court has the same makeup that it had when it struck down the first partial birth abortion.  

And people like Nacho definitely substantiate my fears about western converts to Orthodoxy.  He's obviously a frustrated Roman Catholic.  I guess Orthodoxy was more 'exotic' or he maybe he got turned off by a whacko RC priest, but it's obvious that he thinks like a western christian.  

Of course I think you also think like a western christian just like almost every other poster here.  Frankly it's just impossible for you to overcome your cultural heritage.  You can go off to St. Vlad's and have icons in your house but you still approach these issues with a western mindset.  

Like I asked, what is the future of Orthodoxy in the west?  Is this convert movement something that can be sustained?  Frankly I don't think so.  I think most converts are frustrated Roman Catholics.  So what will happen is that either they'll end up where they philosophically fit or they will 'taint' American Orthodoxy.  

The fear of the 'corruption' of Orthodoxy by protestants is the primary reason why I haven't 'doxed.'  At least at my parish, the people are catholic.  They might vote for Kerry because they're ethnic but they're catholic because they grew up in a catholic culture.  They have an almost inborn catholic sensibility.
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« Reply #52 on: May 05, 2004, 12:28:50 AM »

If we have to overcome our cultural heritage to become Christians, then we might as well worship trees again.

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« Reply #53 on: May 05, 2004, 12:35:34 AM »

Quote from: Jennifer
Like I asked, what is the future of Orthodoxy in the west?  Is this convert movement something that can be sustained?  Frankly I don't think so.  I think most converts are frustrated Roman Catholics.  So what will happen is that either they'll end up where they philosophically fit or they will 'taint' American Orthodoxy.  

The fear of the 'corruption' of Orthodoxy by protestants is the primary reason why I haven't 'doxed.'  At least at my parish, the people are catholic.  They might vote for Kerry because they're ethnic but they're catholic because they grew up in a catholic culture.  They have an almost inborn catholic sensibility.  
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As members of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, we have faith that the Holy Spirit will guide the development of the Orthodox Church here in America. I don't agree that most converts to Orthodoxy are from Roman Catholic backgrounds, but even if they were, the Orthodox Church promises the "renewing of the mind" if one worships in faith and sincerity. This can and will lead to the uprooting of the person's formerly incorrect understanding of Christianity.  We have to trust in the Holy Spirit and preach genuine Orthodoxy to converts for this to take place.
And what say you about the millions of pagans in Rome, the Middle East, and Russia who became Christians? Perhaps if you were living in that time you would have doubted the ability of the Holy Spirit to work amongst them?
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« Reply #54 on: May 05, 2004, 12:46:17 AM »

When I say "frustrated Roman Catholics" I don't mean that they are former Roman Catholics.  What I mean is that they are western catholics and western catholicism is Roman Catholicism.  The way they approach problems is essentially Roman Catholic.  

What is particularly today though is the leadership position in the Orthodox Churches of very recent converts.  Also the "we're saving Orthodoxy from the ethnic Orthodox" attitude.  

In order for true conversion to occur, one has to 'reject' one's culture and few to no western converts to Orthodoxy want to 'reject' western culture.  They merely put a little eastern 'shine' on their western sensibility.  

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« Reply #55 on: May 05, 2004, 12:49:53 AM »

Dear Jennifer,

Why would anyone want to shed his or her cultural past and traditions?  My point was only that not all converts are like Nacho, not that we can shed our cultural past.  I believe as Konrad Nimcheck (one of the rare times I agreed with him) said, that you can add another cultural identity but not lose your own cultural patrimony.  The two work together.

I am proud to have been raised Protestant.  I like Protestants and don't have animosity towards them as you do.  I don't need to make fun of them each time I get the chance.  You also have a very Western mindset as you are constantly obsessed with what Protestants think and you see Protestantism lurking behind every corner.  "Oh no, something is wrong in Orthodoxy! It must be those Protestant converts again!"

I also value my Catholic moral education.  Being Catholic helped form me. I am eternally greatful to my Byzantine Catholic priest who taught me how to share with others and love unconditionally.  I will never turn my back on that.

Your attempt to turn this western convert discussion onto me was nothing more than a personal attack and was of course totally unnecessary.  I merely said Nacho didn't prove your point because not all converts are like him, and you begin accusing me of having a western mindset.  Well, I do have a western mindset and the only thing I can do is try to be aware of it and when it differs from Orthodoxy, I submit.  When it doesn't differ from Orthodoxy, why should I give it up since it is my cultural heritage?

In fact, I don't really understand why you tried to turn the tables on me as if you actually knew me (which you don't, since what I post online is not the totality of who I am) you would know that I spend most of my time at ethnic Orthodox parishes (specifically Greek ones) and am learning Modern Greek so I can communicate better with the people in the pews next to me.  I don't particularly like the outcome of the Antiochian convert boom myself.  It was a great idea but the people weren't all formed in Orthodoxy well enough.

I don't think hanging an icon in my icon corner or going to St Vladimir's makes me Orthodox.  Holding to the Orthodox faith and living an Orthodox life makes one Orthodox.

Frankly, I don't think Orthodoxy rests on people becoming Orthodox.  Orthodoxy is the truth and it is going to live on even if it is small.

It's interesting that you mention that most converts to Orthodoxy are frustrated Roman Catholics, yet you then say you won't convert to Orthodoxy because of protestants corrupting Orthodoxy.  So who is causing the damage? And how are you, a Roman Catholic raised in a family of Protestant heritage, exempt from this?

One further point: I think you think Orthodox consider Catholics to be "small-c catholic".  I think this because you said that at least the Roman Catholics in your parish are catholic.  You implicitly assume that ethnic Orthodox are catholic too.  But as you know, Orthodox don't view you as catholic (and it has nothing to do with ethnic vs. convert). They view you as a Latin heretic.  You would be bringing your Latin mindset into the Orthodox Church, so don't cast stones when you live in a glass house.

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« Reply #56 on: May 05, 2004, 12:49:58 AM »

Pardon me for popping in...

I wasn't aware that one had to adopt an eastern "ethnicity" or completely eastern culture in order to be Orthodox.  What exactly does this eastern culture entail?  Please explain?
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« Reply #57 on: May 05, 2004, 12:53:33 AM »

Also the "we're saving Orthodoxy from the ethnic Orthodox" attitude.  

I agree, that is a very dangerous attitude. That's why I am glad I hang out with ethnics.

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In order for true conversion to occur, one has to 'reject' one's culture and few to no western converts to Orthodoxy want to 'reject' western culture.  They merely put a little eastern 'shine' on their western sensibility.  

As I said above, I don't think that's possible. One should try to add on an eastern patrimony but one is going to have to live with and be aware of his former identity.  THink of it like this. If I am married twice, I am always going to relate to my second wife with a bit of the patterns I learned from relating to my first.  You just can't get around it.

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« Reply #58 on: May 05, 2004, 01:07:23 AM »

Dear Jennifer,

Why would anyone want to shed his or her cultural past and traditions?  My point was only that not all converts are like Nacho, not that we can shed our cultural past.  I believe as Konrad Nimcheck (one of the rare times I agreed with him) said, that you can add another cultural identity but not lose your own cultural patrimony.  The two work together.

I am proud to have been raised Protestant.  I like Protestants and don't have animosity towards them as you do.  I don't need to make fun of them each time I get the chance.  You also have a very Western mindset as you are constantly obsessed with what Protestants think and you see Protestantism lurking behind every corner.  "Oh no, something is wrong in Orthodoxy! It must be those Protestant converts again!"

Of course I have a western mindset.  I'm a Roman Catholic.  

Quote
I also value my Catholic moral education.  Being Catholic helped form me. I am eternally greatful to my Byzantine Catholic priest who taught me how to share with others and love unconditionally.  I will never turn my back on that.

Your attempt to turn this western convert discussion onto me was nothing more than a personal attack and was of course totally unnecessary.  I merely said Nacho didn't prove your point because not all converts are like him, and you begin accusing me of having a western mindset.  Well, I do have a western mindset and the only thing I can do is try to be aware of it and when it differs from Orthodoxy, I submit.  When it doesn't differ from Orthodoxy, why should I give it up since it is my cultural heritage?

In fact, I don't really understand why you tried to turn the tables on me as if you actually knew me (which you don't, since what I post online is not the totality of who I am) you would know that I spend most of my time at ethnic Orthodox parishes (specifically Greek ones) and am learning Modern Greek so I can communicate better with the people in the pews next to me.  I don't particularly like the outcome of the Antiochian convert boom myself.  It was a great idea but the people weren't all formed in Orthodoxy well enough.

I don't think hanging an icon in my icon corner or going to St Vladimir's makes me Orthodox.  Holding to the Orthodox faith and living an Orthodox life makes one Orthodox.

Frankly, I don't think Orthodoxy rests on people becoming Orthodox.  Orthodoxy is the truth and it is going to live on even if it is small.

It's interesting that you mention that most converts to Orthodoxy are frustrated Roman Catholics, yet you then say you won't convert to Orthodoxy because of protestants corrupting Orthodoxy.  So who is causing the damage? And how are you, a Roman Catholic raised in a family of Protestant heritage, exempt from this?

When I say "frustrated Roman Catholics" I mean western catholics which I believe most Orthodox converts are.  They're western catholics which is Roman Catholicism.  

Quote
One further point: I think you think Orthodox consider Catholics to be "small-c catholic".  I think this because you said that at least the Roman Catholics in your parish are catholic.  You implicitly assume that ethnic Orthodox are catholic too.  But as you know, Orthodox don't view you as catholic (and it has nothing to do with ethnic vs. convert). They view you as a Latin heretic.  You would be bringing your Latin mindset into the Orthodox Church, so don't cast stones when you live in a glass house.

I understand that the Orthodox don't consider Roman Catholics to be catholics.  I, however, as a Roman Catholic believe Orthodox and Roman Catholics are catholic.  When I write catholic I (as a Roman Catholic) mean Roman Catholic, Byzantine Catholic and Orthodox.  I understand that when an Orthodox writes catholic they mean Orthodox.  But I'm not Orthodox so I'm not bound by that.  

And of course I'm bringing my 'latin mindset" into this.  I can't help but have a 'latin mindset.'  I'm a western catholic.
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« Reply #59 on: May 05, 2004, 01:13:58 AM »

Well Nacho the trad Orthodox say that Papalism* is the oldest form of protestantism, so there :-P  

* I am trying to just refrence the heresy (from the Orthodox POV ) of the powers assumed by the modern bishops of rome, this is not meant to be offensive.

Jennifer,

Once you get over being appalled if you didn't spend so much time defending pro-abortion canidates people would not think that you are pro-abortion.  And FWIW I find talk radio to be rather obnoxious and do not consider myself a true republican.  

Your argument about western thought among Orthodox converts is a strawman unless you actually show how someone has thought in an un-Patristic manner.  Most of my learning of Orthodoxy has come from a monastery where zero English is used liturgically and ethnic Orthodox are in large numbers.  But rationalistic type thinking is niether ethnic nor convert....I have known plenty of both to think in that many, and plenty of both who are entirely Orthodox.  But it is a process and not instantaneous.  

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« Reply #60 on: May 05, 2004, 01:16:55 AM »

I agree, that is a very dangerous attitude. That's why I am glad I hang out with ethnics.As I said above, I don't think that's possible. One should try to add on an eastern patrimony but one is going to have to live with and be aware of his former identity.  THink of it like this. If I am married twice, I am always going to relate to my second wife with a bit of the patterns I learned from relating to my first.  You just can't get around it.

anastasios

But as a western christian with a western patrimony why should you be forced to embrace a 'foreign' patrimony?  If western christianity wasn't in such trouble there would no need for western christians to embrace eastern christianity.  

I understand how western christians can feel 'drawn' to eastern spirituality.  But western christians are also 'drawn' to hinduism and all other kinds of 'exotic' things.  In my own spiritual life, I am 'drawn' to eastern spirituality.  But intellectually, philosophically, etc. I'm a western christian and denying that fundamental truth is a lie.  

When I say that many Orthodox are "frustrated Roman Catholics" what I mean is that there wouldn't be the need to reject their western 'patrimony.'  Of course protestants don't think like catholics but there's more 'congruence' between catholicism and protestantism.  I think that many Orthodox converts will struggle throughout their lives with the 'patrimony' issue and may never feel at home being 'eastern' which is understandable given that they're not 'eastern.'  

This fundamental 'problem' is what makes me suspect that the convert phenomenon won't last.  How can 'confused' people pass eastern patrimony onto their children?  

Orthodoxy should acknowledge this 'truth' and 'divert' interested protestants to western Orthodoxy.
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« Reply #61 on: May 05, 2004, 01:22:12 AM »

Well Nacho the trad Orthodox say that Papalism* is the oldest form of protestantism, so there :-P  

* I am trying to just refrence the heresy (from the Orthodox POV ) of the powers assumed by the modern bishops of rome, this is not meant to be offensive.

Jennifer,

Once you get over being appalled if you didn't spend so much time defending pro-abortion canidates people would not think that you are pro-abortion.  And FWIW I find talk radio to be rather obnoxious and do not consider myself a true republican.  

I haven't "defended" any pro-abortion candidate.  I've written that I prefer Kerry over Bush but I don't like either one.  That's hardly a "defense."  

Quote
Your argument about western thought among Orthodox converts is a strawman unless you actually show how someone has thought in an un-Patristic manner.  Most of my learning of Orthodoxy has come from a monastery where zero English is used liturgically and ethnic Orthodox are in large numbers.  But rationalistic type thinking is niether ethnic nor convert....I have known plenty of both to think in that many, and plenty of both who are entirely Orthodox.  But it is a process and not instantaneous.  

Literalism isn't patristic.  The Church's authority cannot be separated from the Church.  Catholic Answers is not the Catholic Church.  To claim otherwise suggests a fundamental misunderstanding of the Church's authority.  

BTW, protestant thought isn't just found in Orthodoxy.  Unfortunately many Roman Catholics are so ignorant of their faith that they find 'conservative' protestant thought appealing.  Witness the charismatic movement.  The fundamental difference between conservative Catholics and traditionalist Catholics is that the former group is 'infected' with protestantism.  There's a lot of talk about "feelings" and the Bible.  
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« Reply #62 on: May 05, 2004, 08:25:54 AM »

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I believe as Konrad Nimcheck

Huh, what ever happened to that guy?

Greg
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« Reply #63 on: May 05, 2004, 08:34:39 AM »

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Jennifer:
I think that some posters here are overly partisan and will excuse being pro-choice against a republican and not a democrat.  I'm unconvinced by their claims otherwise given their other responses.  People don't often understand what their motives are.

I agree that sometimes we don't understand our own motives, but that is probably true for you, as well.

What makes you think that you understand the motives of others and that you know what those are despite the plain language of what they have posted here?

Aren't we obligated to judge their opinions by what they post, and not what we wish to read into it?  

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Jennifer: I think the overly partisan tone of some posters is evidenced by overly harsh comments about "evil dems" and outright lies like "90% of all republicans are pro-life."  That someone would say that indicates that they are overly partisan because they see the facts in a light most favorable to their political party.

To conservatives, your tone is harsh and overly partisan.

Pardon me, but your posts sound very left of center.

They come off not as the objective "voice of reason," but as rabid, anti-Bush rant.  

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Jennifer: I also don't think that we are commanded to be 'single issue' voters.  Abortion is an important issue and if we had a truly pro-life candidate, we would have to vote for him.  But being anti-abortion doesn't make someone pro-life.  The pope cautions against a 'culture of death.'  A 'culture of death' is manifested in many ways.  Including executing retarded people or people who can't speak english.  I don't the death penalty is immoral by itself but if it's used then we must ensure that we safeguard life and Bush's actions in Texas don't indicate a "respect for life."  And undoubtedly some of the people executed are innocent.

How does the inability to speak English render a person immune to the death penalty for capital crimes?

I have never read of anything Bush did in Texas that was wrong.

Your argument sounds like clutching at straws to try to justify voting for a man (Kerry) whose positions are anti-Christian.

You can vote for him if you wish, but it's not right.

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Jennifer: I also think a pre-emptive strike (condemned by the pope as well) is not indicative of a "respect for life."

What "pre-emptive strike?"

There was loads of justification for our actions in both Afghanistan and Iraq.

The Pope offered his opinion, which, in this case, I don't believe even the staunchest RCs would regard as infallible.

Good thing, because he was wrong.

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Jennifer: Overall, Bush won't do anything to outlaw abortion so voting for him when we know he'll do other anti-life things isn't the 'moral' choice in my opinion.

We don't "know he'll do other anti-life things."

We do know Kerry is pro-abortion and supported by the disciples of Death.

Bush would not veto anti-abortion legislation. He supports overturning Roe vs. Wade.

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Jennifer: Truthfully what is Bush done to stop abortion?  He passed a law outlawing partial birth abortions which everyone knows is unconstitutional so it will be struck down.

Everyone does not know it is unconstitutional if, in fact, it is.

At least Bush signed the legislation.

Clinton vetoed similar legislation. Kerry would do likewise.

Bush in the White House means anti-abortion legislation has a chance at success.

Kerry in the White House (God forbid!) would mean that Pro-Life legislation would be dead on arrival.  

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Jennifer: I think his claim to be pro-life is an easy for him to make because the average american (squeamish about abortion but doesn't think it should be illegal) knows that voting for him won't make abortion illegal.

I don't think it's so easy.

His actions (in signing anti-abortion legislation, for example) prove his Pro-Life stance is more than a mere "claim."

When Kerry says he is a Catholic, now that is just a claim.  

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Jennifer: Abortion is allowed in this country because of the supreme court and the majority of justices sitting on the court were appointed by republican presidents.

It may be true today that most of the justices were appointed by Republicans (I'm not sure), but was that true of the Court that decided Roe vs. Wade in 1973?

Besides, that's not important.

What is important today is to elect a president who is Pro-Life.

Is Kerry Pro-Life?  

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Jennifer: If Bush had indicated an overall respect for life in a catholic way I'd give his anti-abortion stance more credit.  But I think his disrespect for life and protestant affiliation proves that his anti-abortion stance is 'establishment.'  Since it's 'establishment' he won't go against the norm.  Look what 'life' issues he chooses to care about.  Unborn children over potentially innocent illegal immigrants and off-white people far away.  Being anti-abortion isn't just concern for unborn children.  There's a 'maintenance of the sexual status quo' as well.  I suggest that his anti-abortion stance is more the latter reason than a catholic 'respect for life.'  

I think you're erecting a pacifist, Quaker sort of standard of "overall respect for life" and calling it "Catholic."

I don't see the things Bush has done as inconsistent with his Pro-Life stance.

How is it consistent with an "overall respect for life" to allow a nasty dictator who torments his own people and threatens the peace and safety of the entire world to remain in power?

Sounds to me like Neville Chamberlain would be your ideal "Catholic" candidate.

How is being Pro-Life "establishment?"

The liberal establishment has foisted the culture of death upon us and made the murder of innocent infants a fact of law.

We Christians struggle today against that terrible establishment.

Kerry is the Establishment's standard bearer.

His flag is a Death's Head with a baby in its gaping maw.
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« Reply #64 on: May 05, 2004, 09:26:21 AM »

I agree that sometimes we don't understand our own motives, but that is probably true for you, as well.

What makes you think that you understand the motives of others and that you know what those are despite the plain language of what they have posted here?

But no reasonable person would conclude that I am 'pro-abortion.'  In fact, I have repeatedly written that I don't approve of abortion.  It is simply silly to conclude that someone is "pro-abortion" because they are "anti-Bush."

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Aren't we obligated to judge their opinions by what they post, and not what we wish to read into it?  To conservatives, your tone is harsh and overly partisan.

To radicals, I might sound "overly partisan."  But actually to a moderate reasonable person, it's obvious that I'm a moderate.  This reminds me of how my 'radical' left-wing boss recently accused me of being 'reactionary' and 'right-wing.'  He's a 'zealot' just like Nacho and some other posters here.  Nacho listens to Michael Savage and this guy reads 'liberal' texts that convince him President Bush wants to get rid of Medicare.  Radicals are the same, no matter the political philosophy they embrace.  To a 'radical,' everyone who disagrees is the 'other.'  Radicals can't understand moderation.  

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Pardon me, but your posts sound very left of center.

By whose definition of "left of center?"  It's obvious, if you care to notice, that I'm a moderate.  I absolutely detest political 'my daddy can beat up your daddy' games.  "Liberal" "conservative" what do those terms mean?  Jesus was "left of center" in terms of economic philosophy.  The pope is "left of center" in many issues.  In fact, he's only "right of center" in social issues.  The pope's economic philosophy is much closer to socialism than capitalism and much more radical than my own.  

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They come off not as the objective "voice of reason," but as rabid, anti-Bush rant.

Because I don't "love" Bush, I "hate" him.  Because I don't write how wonderful he is I write "anti-Bush rants."  This is probably the 10th time I've asked this, but can we move beyond this kind of simplistic dialogue.  This is like back in the 3rd grade when you talked to some boy and your friends said you would marry him.  

My posts about Bush are very reasoned and can hardly be construed as "anti-Bush rants" except to "Bush lovers" who see any criticism as "hatred" of him.  

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 How does the inability to speak English render a person immune to the death penalty for capital crimes?

If they are unable to speak english and don't have counsel who speak spanish then they have a fair trial.  

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I have never read of anything Bush did in Texas that was wrong.

Proving how selective your knowledge of the world is.    

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Your argument sounds like clutching at straws to try to justify voting for a man (Kerry) whose positions are anti-Christian.

You can vote for him if you wish, but it's not right.What "pre-emptive strike?"

Oh please.  Even the Bush/Cheney crowd charectorized it as a "pre-emptive strike" along with the pope who condemned it for being a "pre-emptive strike."  

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There was loads of justification for our actions in both Afghanistan and Iraq.

Yeah, "loads" of "justification."  Believe whatever makes you sleep well at night.  

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The Pope offered his opinion, which, in this case, I don't believe even the staunchest RCs would regard as infallible.

No one said it was infallible, however, I (a Roman Catholic) am more likely to be look to the pope for moral direction in times of war than our protestant president.  

The pope's "opinion" is just an "opinion" but it's an opinion of a man who has proved through his life that he values life and knows how evil war can be.  

What do you know of war?  What does Bush know of war?  

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Good thing, because he was wrong. We don't "know he'll do other anti-life things."

We do know Kerry is pro-abortion and supported by the disciples of Death.

Bush would not veto anti-abortion legislation. He supports overturning Roe vs. Wade.Everyone does not know it is unconstitutional if, in fact, it is.

At least Bush signed the legislation.

Clinton vetoed similar legislation. Kerry would do likewise.

Bush in the White House means anti-abortion legislation has a chance at success.

Kerry in the White House (God forbid!) would mean that Pro-Life legislation would be dead on arrival.  I don't think it's so easy.

His actions (in signing anti-abortion legislation, for example) prove his Pro-Life stance is more than a mere "claim."

When Kerry says he is a Catholic, now that is just a claim.  It may be true today that most of the justices were appointed by Republicans (I'm not sure), but was that true of the Court that decided Roe vs. Wade in 1973?

Besides, that's not important.

What is important today is to elect a president who is Pro-Life.

Is Kerry Pro-Life?  I think you're erecting a pacifist, Quaker sort of standard of "overall respect for life" and calling it "Catholic."

That's silly.  

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I don't see the things Bush has done as inconsistent with his Pro-Life stance.

Of course.  Because you only see what you want to see.  

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How is it consistent with an "overall respect for life" to allow a nasty dictator who torments his own people and threatens the peace and safety of the entire world to remain in power?

Is is "consistent with an overall respect for life" to kill someone who suspect will commit a crime tomorrow?  The Catholic Church allows self-defense but only when there are no other alternatives and the attack is imminent.  It's the same under our law.  You can't kill your neighbor if you hear him saying he's going to kill his wife tomorrow.  

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Sounds to me like Neville Chamberlain would be your ideal "Catholic" candidate.

Now that's just silly.  

I'll leave your ignorance about WWII for another time.  

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How is being Pro-Life "establishment?"

It's beyond you.  

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The liberal establishment has foisted the culture of death upon us and made the murder of innocent infants a fact of law.

We Christians struggle today against that terrible establishment.

Kerry is the Establishment's standard bearer.

His flag is a Death's Head with a baby in its gaping maw..

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« Reply #65 on: May 05, 2004, 09:33:17 AM »

The fear of the 'corruption' of Orthodoxy by protestants is the primary reason why I haven't 'doxed.'  At least at my parish, the people are catholic.  They might vote for Kerry because they're ethnic but they're catholic because they grew up in a catholic culture.  They have an almost inborn catholic sensibility.  

Dear Jennifer,

I think I have a pretty good handle on where you think "catholicism" may be found, but I am still unsure of what, to you, "catholicism" is.  What is "catholicism"?  What is a "catholic culture"?  What is an "inborn catholic sensibility"?
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« Reply #66 on: May 05, 2004, 09:36:55 AM »

This is like back in the 3rd grade when you talked to some boy and your friends said you would marry him.  

Jennifer and Kerry sittin' in a tree.
K-I-S-S-I-N-G. :aktion031:
First comes love,
then comes marriage,
then comes [insert name here] in a baby carriage!

 Grin  

Yeah, I know what you are saying; "Act your age and not your shoe size!"

Sorry, I don't mean nothin by this -- but when you wrote that statement, that old teasing diddie from my childhood just popped into my head!

:smiley1:
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« Reply #67 on: May 05, 2004, 10:01:04 AM »

Dear Jennifer,

I think I have a pretty good handle on where you think "catholicism" may be found, but I am still unsure of what, to you, "catholicism" is.  What is "catholicism"?  What is a "catholic culture"?  What is an "inborn catholic sensibility"?  

It's not something that can be defined precisely.  But we know it when we see it and we know what isn't it.  

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« Reply #68 on: May 05, 2004, 10:08:32 AM »

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It's not something that can be defined precisely.  But we know it when we see it and we know what isn't it.  



I'm sorry, Jennifer, but you can't have it both ways.  You derided Zollars for not being able to articulate a "Southron Culture" yet now you're trying to do the same with "Catholic Culture".

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« Reply #69 on: May 05, 2004, 10:24:40 AM »

I'm not voting for either Kerry or Bush...  their both shadey...,
The choice comes down to
- Vote for someone pro-choice, but will likely improve the economy and not have any more pre-emptive strikes.
- Vote for someone pro-life, but the economy will not improve, war will continue & more American soldiers will die (not talking about how many Iraqis, Afgans, etc will die as well).  
Nah, I think I'm gonna chill out at home come Election Day.  Their both evil.
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« Reply #70 on: May 05, 2004, 10:25:54 AM »

If you don't vote, then you have no justification to complain.
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« Reply #71 on: May 05, 2004, 10:30:03 AM »

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Jennifer: Now that's just silly.  

I'll leave your ignorance about WWII for another time.
 

Jennifer -

You should wait to post until you have something substantive to say.

My "ignorance about WWII" didn't prevent me from graduating with honors in History, or from being made a member of Phi Alpha Theta, the international honor society for historians.

I'm not trying to brag; but having you accuse me of historical ignorance calls for a response.

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Jennifer: But no reasonable person would conclude that I am 'pro-abortion.'  In fact, I have repeatedly written that I don't approve of abortion.  It is simply silly to conclude that someone is "pro-abortion" because they are "anti-Bush."

Who said you were "pro-abortion?"

Your defense of Kerry does make it seem, however, that abortion is not much of an issue for you one way or the other.

Your distaste for Bush is apparently much more important.

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Jennifer: To radicals, I might sound "overly partisan."  But actually to a moderate reasonable person, it's obvious that I'm a moderate.  This reminds me of how my 'radical' left-wing boss recently accused me of being 'reactionary' and 'right-wing.'  He's a 'zealot' just like Nacho and some other posters here.  Nacho listens to Michael Savage and this guy reads 'liberal' texts that convince him President Bush wants to get rid of Medicare.  Radicals are the same, no matter the political philosophy they embrace.  To a 'radical,' everyone who disagrees is the 'other.'  Radicals can't understand moderation.

Guess I must be some kind of "radical."

'Cause you don't seem very moderate or reasonable to me.

There's irony in what I quoted from you above. Hope I'm not the only one of the "others" who can see it.

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Jennifer: By whose definition of "left of center?"  It's obvious, if you care to notice, that I'm a moderate.  I absolutely detest political 'my daddy can beat up your daddy' games.  "Liberal" "conservative" what do those terms mean?  Jesus was "left of center" in terms of economic philosophy.  The pope is "left of center" in many issues.  In fact, he's only "right of center" in social issues.  The pope's economic philosophy is much closer to socialism than capitalism and much more radical than my own.

Please.

Your comment about Jesus being economically left of center makes my point.

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Jennifer: Because I don't "love" Bush, I "hate" him.  Because I don't write how wonderful he is I write "anti-Bush rants."  This is probably the 10th time I've asked this, but can we move beyond this kind of simplistic dialogue.  This is like back in the 3rd grade when you talked to some boy and your friends said you would marry him.  

My posts about Bush are very reasoned and can hardly be construed as "anti-Bush rants" except to "Bush lovers" who see any criticism as "hatred" of him.

No, they aren't "very reasoned," Jennifer.

They are largely unsubstantiated and are, therefore, assertions.

You've convinced yourself, which makes you a moderate in your own eyes.

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Jennifer: If they are unable to speak english and don't have counsel who speak spanish then they have a fair trial.

But that isn't what you wrote.

You said executing someone who doesn't speak English is wrong.

I used to live in Texas.

Take my word for it; there are plenty of Spanish-speaking lawyers there.

How many non-English speakers are tried in this country these days without benefit of translators?

Has Bush advocated denying them translators or bilingual attorneys?

Bogus "issue."

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Jennifer: Proving how selective your knowledge of the world is.

Your response proves that your claims about Bush's actions in Texas are mere assertions without support.

You cannot offer an instance of the wrongdoing that you claim.

So, rather than supply proof, you attempt to insult me.

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Jennifer: Oh please.  Even the Bush/Cheney crowd charectorized it as a "pre-emptive strike" along with the pope who condemned it for being a "pre-emptive strike."

Boy, for a "moderate," you sure use a lot of leftist rhetoric.

The invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq were justified.

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Jennifer: Yeah, "loads" of "justification."  Believe whatever makes you sleep well at night.

If you think Saddam should have been left in power to torture and murder his own people, to sponsor terrorism throughout the world, and to eventually develop a nuclear arsenal, then I suppose there was no justification for attacking his regime.

You're the "moderate," after all.

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Jennifer: No one said it was infallible, however, I (a Roman Catholic) am more likely to be look to the pope for moral direction in times of war than our protestant president.  

The pope's "opinion" is just an "opinion" but it's an opinion of a man who has proved through his life that he values life and knows how evil war can be.  

What do you know of war?  What does Bush know of war?

Hey! What a concept!

Listening to the Pope!

Think he would want you to vote for the "Pro-Choice" candidate?

As much as I respect the Pope, he is not qualified to direct the foreign policy of this nation.

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Jennifer: That's silly.

What a "reasoned," "moderate" response!

It is interesting that you doctored my post before quoting it and then wrote that response.

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From Linus7: I don't see the things Bush has done as inconsistent with his Pro-Life stance.

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Response from Jennifer: Of course.  Because you only see what you want to see.

Once again, you attempt to insult me rather than to support your assertions.

Not very convincing from the voice of moderation and reason.

How are we radicals ever to become enlightened?

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From Linus7: How is being Pro-Life "establishment?"

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Response from Jennifer: It's beyond you.

Interesting thing.

You are not the first person with whom I have argued who has resorted to insults upon discovering themselves unable to answer my legitimate questions.

Now, either I really am as stupid as you say, or you were merely blowing smoke.

I find the latter conclusion more comforting than the former, so I'll go with it.


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« Reply #72 on: May 05, 2004, 11:06:44 AM »

I'm sorry, Jennifer, but you can't have it both ways.  You derided Zollars for not being able to articulate a "Southron Culture" yet now you're trying to do the same with "Catholic Culture".




True, but I think we can all agree that there is a fundamental difference between catholic culture and protestant culture.  I disagree with Zollars in his contention that there is a fundamental difference between southern and northern culture.  
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« Reply #73 on: May 05, 2004, 11:21:01 AM »

 

Jennifer -

You should wait to post until you have something substantive to say.

My "ignorance about WWII" didn't prevent me from graduating with honors in History, or from being made a member of Phi Alpha Theta, the international honor society for historians.

I'm not trying to brag; but having you accuse me of historical ignorance calls for a response.

I have a hard believing that an expert in history would equate the situation in Europe before WWII to the pre-war situation in Iraq.  

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Who said you were "pro-abortion?"

That guy.  I don't remember who.  

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Your defense of Kerry does make it seem, however, that abortion is not much of an issue for you one way or the other.

That's silly.  Again, I have not "defended" Kerry.  In fact, I don't think I've written much of anything about Kerry.  I don't have much of an opinion of him.  

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Your distaste for Bush is apparently much more important.

I haven't posted much about Bush either.  

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Guess I must be some kind of "radical."

Definitely.  

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'Cause you don't seem very moderate or reasonable to me.

I'm definitely more moderate than you.  I also think your support for the war in Iraq demonstrates that you are either recklessly ignorant about the facts or you are unreasonable.  

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There's irony in what I quoted from you above. Hope I'm not the only one of the "others" who can see it.Please.

Your comment about Jesus being economically left of center makes my point.

No, it doesn't make your point.  The fact that it offends you makes my point that you are importing political philosophies into Christianity where they don't belong.  Christianity isn't 'liberal' or 'conservative' or 'left/right of center.'  

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No, they aren't "very reasoned," Jennifer.

They are largely unsubstantiated and are, therefore, assertions.

If you're going to brag then I will too.  I'm about to ready to graduate from a top law school.  True what I've written are "assertions."  This isn't a "debate."  I had to give Nacho a lecture about the difference between fact and opinion.  What we see on these boards is largely opinions.  For me and from everyone else.  

Some opinions are more 'reasoned' than others.  And in my opinions, the more 'reasoned' opinions come from those who are not blinded by partisanship and those who are to justify simplistic political terms like 'liberal.'  Can't you think of a better to describe things than 'liberal' or 'conservative.'  It's just so lazy.  

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You've convinced yourself, which makes you a moderate in your own eyes.

No I'm definitely a moderate.  And everyone would agree except for radicals.  To my radical boss, I'm a right-wing 'nazi.'  To you, I'm a 'liberal.'  

It's all so 'tiresome.'  

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But that isn't what you wrote.

You said executing someone who doesn't speak English is wrong.

I used to live in Texas.

Take my word for it; there are plenty of Spanish-speaking lawyers there.

How many non-English speakers are tried in this country these days without benefit of translators?

Has Bush advocated denying them translators or bilingual attorneys?

Bogus "issue."Your response proves that your claims about Bush's actions in Texas are mere assertions without support.

You cannot offer an instance of the wrongdoing that you claim.

I could spend the time searching for proof that you'll dismiss because it doesn't fit your radical world view but I really don't have time.  

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So, rather than supply proof, you attempt to insult me.Boy, for a "moderate," you sure use a lot of leftist rhetoric.

Here we go again..."leftist rhetoric."  What does that mean?  Who gets to decide what terms are appropriate for 'moderates' and 'liberals' and 'conservatives.'

Unfortunately we live in a very simplistic political culture.  It's 'liberal' and 'conservative' but no one ever attempts to go beneath the label.  

It's easier that way.  It doesn't as much effort to figure people out.  

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The invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq were justified.If you think Saddam should have been left in power to torture and murder his own people, to sponsor terrorism throughout the world, and to eventually develop a nuclear arsenal, then I suppose there was no justification for attacking his regime.

Your argument techniques leave much to be desired.  Here we go again with the strawman argument.  

You're the "moderate," after all.Hey! What a concept!

Listening to the Pope!

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Think he would want you to vote for the "Pro-Choice" candidate?

As much as I respect the Pope, he is not qualified to direct the foreign policy of this nation.What a "reasoned," "moderate" response!

It is interesting that you doctored my post before quoting it and then wrote that response. Once again, you attempt to insult me rather than to support your assertions.

Not very convincing from the voice of moderation and reason.

How are we radicals ever to become enlightened? Interesting thing.
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I think education is the key.  

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You are not the first person with whom I have argued who has resorted to insults upon discovering themselves unable to answer my legitimate questions.

Now, either I really am as stupid as you say, or you were merely blowing smoke.

I find the latter conclusion more comforting than the former, so I'll go with it.

What "legitimate" questions?  

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« Reply #74 on: May 05, 2004, 11:24:56 AM »

True, but I think we can all agree that there is a fundamental difference between catholic culture and protestant culture.  

That may have been true in the past. But now they look, act, and vote pretty much like liberal protestants to me.

Christianity isn't 'liberal' or 'conservative' or 'left/right of center.'  

I have tried to sit this one out, but you are just getting CRAZY here.

What???!!! How can you say that??!!! How can seriously evaluate traditional, Orthodox Christian teachings against the morals of todays world and NOT come to the conculsion that true Christianity (and by this I mean Orthodox and not the corrupted Christianity of the RCC) would be considered anything BUT "conservative"HuhHuh?

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« Reply #75 on: May 05, 2004, 11:47:05 AM »

I think Christianity transcends traditiona political labels, Tom.

On many issues, especially moral ones, traditional Christian teachings are incredibly conservative.  However, on others, entirely liberal.  For example, the Bible tells us that the Apostles had a "common purse" and implies a communal lifestyle.  Hardly "conservative" politically.

Die-hard conservatives of today would even call the Apostles, who were commissioned to go out and preach without a walking staff or food or extra clothes, as shifty loafers.  They didn't "work" for a living; they were, in effect, on welfare.  They walked through the fields and plucked grain from the stalks that Jewish law set aside for the poor: yet another form of welfare.

All I'm saying is that Christianity transcends ridiculous mundane politics; we are called to rise above it all and live for the Kingdom of God, not the Kingdom of Mammon.
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« Reply #76 on: May 05, 2004, 11:58:29 AM »

On many issues, especially moral ones, traditional Christian teachings are incredibly conservative.  However, on others, entirely liberal.  For example, the Bible tells us that the Apostles had a "common purse" and implies a communal lifestyle.  Hardly "conservative" politically.

I don't think that you are entirely correct here. Conservatives support "social compassion", they just want to deliver it, and apply it, differently. And if I may say so, MORE in line with what occurred in the early Church.

"Conservatives" believe (at least the ones I have listened to), that it should be done at the local level through local and "faith based" organizations. The Apostles relied on the Church to house and feed them - not the Roman government.

This is why "Conservatives" are "spot on" when they want to move some types of the "social net" to local and faith based organizations.



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« Reply #77 on: May 05, 2004, 01:22:05 PM »

The Apostles relied on the Church to house and feed them - not the Roman government.

Maybe not the Roman government, but as I pointed out, Jewish law, which before the Romans constituted the "government", provided welfare for the poor.

From my own personal observations, the conservative ideal of charity and welfare being performed on a "local" level is just that...an ideal.  When it comes into practice, at the local level, its still decried as governmental intervention.  For every conservative who gives generously to charity, there's a liberal who does the same.  For every conservative who eschews charity, there's a liberal who does the same.

I don't think politics enter into it as much as people think they do.  It all boils down to one's deeply personal values.  Sure, political affiliation can affect that, but I know Democrats who are more conservative than Ronald Reagan on many issues and Republicans who are more liberal than Chariman LBJ on the same.  

I don't see something as earthly as politics having any bearing on Christianity.  We, as Christians, are called to rise above it, as I've said before and will continue to say.
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« Reply #78 on: May 05, 2004, 01:32:34 PM »

I don't see something as earthly as politics having any bearing on Christianity.  We, as Christians, are called to rise above it, as I've said before and will continue to say.  

Good call, Schultz, though are you talking political party affiliations (i.e., straight-down-the-ticket Reps or Dems), or stances on certain issues that have become political?

It seems to me with the former, you'd be correct.
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« Reply #79 on: May 05, 2004, 01:33:51 PM »

Whoops...never mind.

There I go again, not reading thoroughly enough....
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« Reply #80 on: May 05, 2004, 01:43:40 PM »

I think Christianity transcends traditiona political labels, Tom.

Exactly!  

That's why I find political labels so 'offensive.'  

In fact, I would argue that what we think of as 'conservatism' is essentially 'liberalism.'  Every american political philosophy developed from classical liberalism.  Democracy is 'liberal.'  

Quote
On many issues, especially moral ones, traditional Christian teachings are incredibly conservative.  However, on others, entirely liberal.  For example, the Bible tells us that the Apostles had a "common purse" and implies a communal lifestyle.  Hardly "conservative" politically.

But then there's issue as to why someone has conservative social beliefs.  The communists and the facists frowned on abortion.  Communist countries were more 'conservative' in terms of sexuality than 'conservative' countries like the US.  

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Die-hard conservatives of today would even call the Apostles, who were commissioned to go out and preach without a walking staff or food or extra clothes, as shifty loafers.  They didn't "work" for a living; they were, in effect, on welfare.  They walked through the fields and plucked grain from the stalks that Jewish law set aside for the poor: yet another form of welfare.

I read a fascinating book a few years ago about the people who converted to Christianity in the early days.  I think that we like to imagine that we would be among the 'chosen few' but I doubt that we are counter-cultural enough to have converted to christianity.  

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All I'm saying is that Christianity transcends ridiculous mundane politics; we are called to rise above it all and live for the Kingdom of God, not the Kingdom of Mammon.

People transcend "ridiculous mundane politics."  There is no "pure liberal" or "pure conservative."  Life is too messy and people are too complicated to fit into little political boxes.  
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« Reply #81 on: May 05, 2004, 01:50:40 PM »

Communists frowned on abortion? Women in Russia and Ukraine today have had more abortions than other country in the world. If communists or fascists ever did oppose it, then good for them. They are at least getting something right.
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« Reply #82 on: May 05, 2004, 02:15:28 PM »

"Conservatives support "social compassion", they just want to deliver it, and apply it, differently. "

Can't say this as a general statement, I think.  It is true that *some* American conservatives think this way ... others are simply knee-jerk anti-government, anti-tax, and vote for political conservatives because they do better financially under them than they do under political liberals, using American categories.

"In fact, I would argue that what we think of as 'conservatism' is essentially 'liberalism.'  Every american political philosophy developed from classical liberalism.  Democracy is 'liberal.'"

This is an excellent point.  Europe, by contrast, has very weak "liberal" parties, but true conservative parties and true socialist parties.  Our Republican party is really a rightist version of liberalism and our democratic party is really a leftist version of liberal, but our republicans are not like Europe's conservatives and our democrats are not like Europe's socialist parties.  On the one hand, the ideological ground that separates our own political parties appears narrower than is the case in Europe.  On the other hand, however, the conservatives and socialists in Europe share a tremendous degree of common ground that seems to be disputed between American political ideologies ... both conservatives and socialists in Europe support a state structure that, even from the US democrat perspective, appears somewhat paternalistic.  It's strikingly different from the United States, really.  The conservatives in Europe are more likely to be "compassionate" conservatives than their American counterparts, in my own personal experience, and I think that this is because the somewhat"laissez-faire" approach of the right wing of classical liberalism hold remarkably little currency in Europe, even among political conservatives there, who see it as somewhat barbaric and unacceptably tolerant of substantial income disparities.  

Brendan

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« Reply #83 on: May 05, 2004, 02:35:57 PM »

Communists frowned on abortion? Women in Russia and Ukraine today have had more abortions than other country in the world. If communists or fascists ever did oppose it, then good for them. They are at least getting something right.

They opposed abortion because of eugenics.  In Nazi Germany, "good" German women couldn't get abortions but people of 'inferior' stock were forcibly sterilized (if not killed).  

The Communists didn't like abortion because they wanted to have a high birth rate.  In Romania no birth control or abortion coupled with an immoral communist state led to many many children being deposited in state run orphanages where they were exposed to aids.  

So being against abortion isn't good enough.  What matters is why you're against abortion.  Because if you're abortion for the 'wrong' reasons, i.e. eugenics, then you'll end up engaging in evil activities.  
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« Reply #84 on: May 05, 2004, 03:47:19 PM »

I'm not voting for either Kerry or Bush...  their both shadey...,
The choice comes down to
- Vote for someone pro-choice, but will likely improve the economy and not have any more pre-emptive strikes.
- Vote for someone pro-life, but the economy will not improve, war will continue & more American soldiers will die (not talking about how many Iraqis, Afgans, etc will die as well).  
Nah, I think I'm gonna chill out at home come Election Day.  Their both evil.

Ania, I totally agree with you on all points.  I am seriously tempted not to vote in this election, unless a good third party candidate decides to run.  This would be the first presidential election I have not voted in, but I seriously cannot bring myself to vote for either Kerry or Bush.
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ania
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« Reply #85 on: May 05, 2004, 04:20:05 PM »

If you don't vote, then you have no justification to complain.

I CAN AND WILL complain about the fact that the 2 candidates being paraded in front of us STINK TO HIGH HEAVEN.  
I am not not voting out of laziness, or ignorance, or anything like that.  I am not going to vote since I consider both cadidates very lousy.  
I support pro-life, but I also support (yes call me a tree hugger) environmental reforms. I am anti-war.  I am all for free public access to healthcare (if that requires higher taxes, so-be-it, at least I won't have to worry so much about breaking a bone or getting the flu).  I am anti-gay marriages. I'm against the death penalty.  I'm for better education system (lets face it, ours stinks).  Please tell me, who should I vote for?  Neither of the candidates inspire any sort of confidence.  I am not voting because I took an all around look at both Bush & Kerry, and liked neither.  
I long for a multi-party system, such as there are in Europe, as they seem much more democratic to me.
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« Reply #86 on: May 05, 2004, 04:44:00 PM »

"I am not voting because I took an all around look at both Bush & Kerry, and liked neither."

This may be where I end up as well.

"I long for a multi-party system, such as there are in Europe, as they seem much more democratic to me."

Well, be careful.  Many of them are de facto two party systems with relatively powerless third parties.  Others have radical third parties (like Germany's Die Gruenen) who garner enough votes to get to play kingmaker in parliamentary elections, even though they are supported by relatively very small slice of the electorate, and I question how democratic that is.  Countries that have true muliparty systems, like Italy, really function badly.  It most often comes down to "conservative" (of whatever name) vs. "socialist" (of whatever name) with sometimes a third party playing kingmaker.  Plus virtually every European country follows a system whereby you do not really choose the candidate who is running in your district (who may often be someone with no ties to your district at all), the national party does, so you are in effect voting for a party rather than a person.

Brendan
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« Reply #87 on: May 05, 2004, 04:49:45 PM »

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Plus virtually every European country follows a system whereby you do not really choose the candidate who is running in your district (who may often be someone with no ties to your district at all), the national party does, so you are in effect voting for a party rather than a person.


That sounds as screwed up as our present Electoral College system.  Remember, folks, the Electors do not have to follow the popular election at all whilst deciding for whom to cast their votes.
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« Reply #88 on: May 05, 2004, 05:25:07 PM »

Ania, again you and I totally agree.
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« Reply #89 on: May 05, 2004, 06:16:34 PM »

Bogoliubtsy

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Does one not become an accomplice in the moral evil of murder when one votes for a candidate who will hurl our country into pointless wars which will take tens of thousands of innocent lives?

etc, etc.

This is the p.o.v. I'm coming from when I look at your up coming election - yes, Bush is "pro life", but in the balance what does that mean?  While I may find Kerry's view of this topic abbhorent, what is the real cost of a Kerry Whitehouse as opposed to a Bush one?  Infants slain at home, or people of all shapes and sizes slain over seas (and more of less all of the same number of infants slain at home anyway)?

I'll give Bush credit, he has done some positive things (such as banning "partial birth abortion".)  That would never have happened in a Democratic Whitehouse.

Honestly, as time goes on, my confusion about just what is going on in the Middle-East, and how I feel about Bush's administration grows.  Grave misgivings mixed with admiration for some very positive things he has done (partial birth abortion ban, working to outlaw "gay marriage", etc.)  Bush is in some ways, a very lonely voice for "traditional" western values...on the other hand, I do not think his administration has dealt squarely with the American public, whether it be on the subject of Iraq and WMD's or just what happened on 9/11.

Seraphim
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