Topic: Not a particularly welcoming start

[WUnland]

Hello,

This is my first post here.  Let me introduce myself.  I am 60 years old, a retired cop from los Angeles California USA now living in Japan.  I am a member of the Catholic Church in good standing, and very serious about issues of faith.  I have some serious concerns about the direction my Church has gone in but remain faithful.  I have been attracted to the Orthodox faith because it seems logically to me to be the closest to the original faith of the early Christians.  I am not here to cause any scandal, nor to argue theology.  I am not capable of that.  I am here solely as an "inquirer", and I beg the board's patience with me.

I have read what is readily available about the Orthodox faith, and I have sought advice from two Greek churches in California.  Unfortunately neither experience was, how to say it, "welcoming".  When I explained that I was a Latin rite Catholic the frowns descended and I was more or less brushed aside.  I was told that I could enroll in their inquirer classes and that we could talk again in a year or so. I got the distinct impression that they were really NOT interested in my joining their communion.

To my own discredit, I was discouraged by this, and did not follow up.  I now find myself in Japan where the Orthodox congregation is very small, and it seems nobody speaks any English so I am at a loss how to proceed.

I continue to follow my baptised faith as it is available to me here and the people have been most welcoming to me, an outsider.

Does anyone have any English language  support that I might consult. I would also ask for any thoughts on my initial contacts with the Orthodox Church.  Is this "typical"?  Was it because I am RC, because I am clearly not Greek, or is the Orthodox Church really not all that interested in bringing in new members?

My first impression has been that each ethnic Church is a kind of closed "club" and that those of different ethnicity, particularly not Eastern European or "oriental" are looked at as "risks" if that is the right word.  I am not trying to be uncharitable here, just trying to understand if I am way off the mark.  I surely can't judge the millions in the Faith based on two guys, I know that.  Have other inquirers experienced this or have I been overly "sensitive"?

Thanks.

Regards,
William Unland 

[Shiny]

The Orthodox Church is welcoming of new members, but I haven't encountered any arrogance or self-righetous behavior at any of the parishes I've been too. All of them have been very friendly. You also have to watch out when some of these parishes become ethnic clubs and start frowning upon outsiders. That's not the Christian response. Some of these people have a chip on their shoulder because they are in the original church and want nothing to do with RC's or Protestants or you are not Greek, Russian, etc.

I can tell you from my experience, especially at a Cathedral I was at...it was basically a Greek Club. It was disgusting to see more than half the parish attend so late in the Divine Liturgy, take communion and walk out. I honestly couldn't careless how these people carry out their relationship with God, I'm not there for them but it's disheartening to see it...and I think it's that sort of behavior which could turn off potential converts.

An OCA church may be up your alley if you come back to California, but I'm not sure how the Orthodox churches are in Japan.

[Russell]

Every Orthodox Church I have been too has been welcoming (So far Russian Ukrainian Serbian and Antiochian).  I never tried a Greek Orthodox church outside of a greek festival.


I am usualy a shy person but in the few churches that I have visited I have found friendly welcoming people that I would not mind having as my friends.

If you come back to LA send me a PM, I do not know very much about the RC church but we have a few RC converts at my church. 

[Alveus Lacuna]

I just attended and received Holy Communion at a Greek church for the first time when I was out of town last weekend, and everyone was very welcoming and kind.

[Salpy]

Welcome to the forum!

You may want to try the Russian Orthodox Church in Japan:

http://russianorthodox.org/orthodox_churches.html#jpn

Also, there is a Coptic Orthodox Church in Japan:

http://www.copticjapan.ecnet.jp/index_e.html


(I have to explain to you that while the Russian Orthodox Church is in communion with the Greek Church, the Coptic Orthodox Church is not.  The Russians and Greeks are Eastern Orthodox and the Copts are Oriental Orthodox (my Church.)  The difference has to do with a dispute dating back to the fifth century and centers on language used to describe Christ's nature.)

[Salpy]

Here is a video of the Russian Church:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mDWbfzuGq8g


Russian chant is beautiful.   

[Trevorthodox]

Most non-orthodox churches in my culture, England, have someone to greet you as you enter, with a warm welcoming handshake and a sheet of parish notices. They're happy to show you to a seat, find you a friendly person to sit with, and after the service, give you tea and biscuits and a polite conversation. These things have important social functions, connected with politeness and social acceptance. One hates to enter a strange place uninvited.

I remember it was a real shock to the system that nobody took a blind bit of notice of me when I first entered divine liturgy.

Everything was so culturally strange. I didn't know how to do anything, and I couldn't understand anything... but it grows on you. As a believing Christian, I wanted instant access, all areas, but Orthodoxy is, I think, more a long-term investment in a gradual process. I'm only a duckling around here so I hope this makes sense 

[Shanghaiski]

I had an off-putting experience visiting a Greek Orthodox church when I was first looking into Orthodoxy. While I did get to talk to some friendly people, it was difficult making friends--everyone hung out in their own families at coffee hour after liturgy and I was alone. It's hard to break into that at any church. However, I kept going because I loved the liturgy and the faith. Eventually, I visited other churches that were more convert-oriented, however I still found that it took a while to form relationships. Keep going to as many Orthodox churches as you can, and see if you can meet the priests and other parishioners. May God be with you in your quest.

[katherineofdixie]

While not dissing other folks' less than positive experiences, I can say that I have always been warmly welcomed and encouraged at any Orthodox parish I attended, which includes Greek, Antiochian, OCA, Serbian and ROCOR. I know the Greeks often get a bad rap for being an ethnic "club," but that has not been my experience. The first Divine Liturgy that I attended was at a little Greek Orthodox mission parish and the people couldn't have been nicer or more helpful. I was welcomed, placed next to a friendly yiayia who explained the service to me as we went along, invited to coffee hour, sunday school and weekday Bible study. Not only that, but several folks stayed around for an hour afterward to answer my questions.
That said, you probably won't find the kind of standardized Protestant-greeter-seeker-friendly welcome in an Orthodox church.
(oh, and OP, it has nothing to do with your being RC. One thing that I can't seem to get across to our RC brethren is that the majority of Orthodox don't "hate" the RCC. You guys are just wrong, that's all. I've seen much more anti-RC bias in Baptists and other southern Protestants than I ever have on the part of Orthodox.)

[Fr. George]

I've been blessed in that, before my ordination, my experiences with Greek parishes were generally wonderful, with the good experiences outnumbering the bad by far.  Of course, the vast majority of my experiences were in the Great Lakes/Midwest, which offers a different picture than, say, Boston, the West Coast, and NY/Chi (all of which are known for their ethnic enclave parishes).

Since my ordination, I haven't had a bad experience with a parish, which is why I qualified my statement above.

[orthonorm]

The Orthodox Church is welcoming of new members.

This is generalization is not accurate in my experience.

The suggestion of an OCA parish is probably the best. Attachments to ethnicity and nationalism strongly mark many parishes I have visited.

In my experience, I found an OCA parish, made an appointment with the parish Priest and made clear my concerns and interest. He then suggested practical ways to become more fully involved in the parish. And I went and go to every service held. The parish while made of over 60% cradle "ethnic" Orthodox was much more welcoming than any of the more ethnically centered parishes.

Given my age and not converting for marriage made me somewhat of a novelty and many were interested in my reasons for coming and were helpful and welcoming. In this case, interesting it was  more the "ethnic" Orthodox who were more interested and welcoming, partly due to the "ethnic" tendency of Mid-Western Americans to be polite to the point of not wanting to offend by respecting another's privacy.

In the end, being willing to approach others rather than waiting to be approached was the best way to get more involved.

FWIW.

[Marc1152]

Greek and Serbian Churches have a reputation for being a bit insular. I am sure that is not universally true, but often they have the idea of being Greek/Serbian first and seek to maintain the national culture of their community.

The OCA as has been mentioned is designed to make converts comfortable. The Russian Church and Antiochian also have English speaking parishes that also can be welcoming. I am belong to a Russian ( Rocor) mission parish that is almost entirely made up of converts.

Are you near Tokyo? You can visit the "Nicholaido" ( St. Nicholas Cathedral) in Tokyo and introduce yourself. I hear it is a very nice place to worship.  

[WUnland]

Thank you to all whom have taken the time to reply.  I sincerely appreciate it.

I am not one to give up because of my probably incorrect feelings of being "unwanted".

I think that the inherent self consciousness of entering into a new place, and a new way of worshipping that seems quite "foreign" might have added to my perceptions. I will take all of the kind suggestions to heart and will try not to be so "sensitive".  I think that my impression may have also been influenced by my experiences here in Japan where I am the eternal outsider.  I walk on egg shells a lot here and am always aware that folks don't see me in the same manner as they see each other. No matter how long I am here, I can never be one of "them". They make that very clear.  Perhaps when I went to the US and talked to the priests I was still operating under the cultural hypersensitivity that I do in Japan, and perhaps that added to my discomfort.  I think that it is clear from what I have read in your responses that it is I who needs to "lighten up".

In any case thank you to those who have offered words of encouragement and also for the kind suggestions as to how I can procede from where I find myself now.

Best regards,
William Unland

[Hamartolos]

You're not wrong to be offended by the ethno-centrism that can exist in ethnic parishes.  Others may call it pride, but it's not whenever the experience is like yours. 

I'd say find another parish, hopefully there is another close by, and of course pray.  It's not right that that happened to you, and you're not being too 'sensitive'.  I remember the first time I called a church, while inquiring about Orthodoxy, to ask when a Divine Liturgy was.  (In Middle Eastern accent) "IT'S OVER!"click..   A few years later I went back to that same parish and everybody treated me wonderfully...and many times the immigrant members of the parish were more hospitable than others.

Don't let it get you down.  Keep reading everything you can on the Faith and when you're able, go to a local Orthodox church for Divine Liturgy. 

God Bless You!

[WUnland]

Thank you.

I think that I have a general problem dealing with "tribalism" in general. I don't believe that God is tribal. I guess I just don't "get" the ethnic pride thing.  Yes indeed I have been known to wear lederhosen and joppe, and my wife wears kimono but neither of us feels we are better than the other simply because of DNA.  I come from Southern California which is probably the most ethnically diverse area in the world.  I have not experienced the ethnic oppression that some cultures have so there is no need for me to show "pride' in my German ancestors.  I acknowledge that the Orthodox Church has survived as ethnic enclaves each of which has sufferred individually for the faith, and each consequently feels a particular "specialness', but for me personally this is impossible to comprehend.

The Latin Church has never really suffered as individual geographic enclaves so I guess there is no special "pride" in belonging to the Bavarian Church as opposed to the Mexican Church for example.  That may be the difference that I "feel".

Orthodoxy is clearly divided by language and culture that need to be considered in some, not all, cases. That is what I didn't quite understand when I made my initial contacts. That is the lesson I will take away from it all.


Regards,
William Unland

[orthonorm]

Thank you.

I think that I have a general problem dealing with "tribalism" in general. I don't believe that God is tribal.
Regards,
William Unland

Might be hard then to worship the God of the Hebrews and Israel to which the rest of us are grafted.

But many Christians like to forget all that stuff.

[Hamartolos]

Thank you.

I think that I have a general problem dealing with "tribalism" in general. I don't believe that God is tribal. I guess I just don't "get" the ethnic pride thing.  Yes indeed I have been known to wear lederhosen and joppe, and my wife wears kimono but neither of us feels we are better than the other simply because of DNA.  I come from Southern California which is probably the most ethnically diverse area in the world.  I have not experienced the ethnic oppression that some cultures have so there is no need for me to show "pride' in my German ancestors.  I acknowledge that the Orthodox Church has survived as ethnic enclaves each of which has sufferred individually for the faith, and each consequently feels a particular "specialness', but for me personally this is impossible to comprehend.

The Latin Church has never really suffered as individual geographic enclaves so I guess there is no special "pride" in belonging to the Bavarian Church as opposed to the Mexican Church for example.  That may be the difference that I "feel".

Orthodoxy is clearly divided by language and culture that need to be considered in some, not all, cases. That is what I didn't quite understand when I made my initial contacts. That is the lesson I will take away from it all.


Regards,
William Unland

I think a lot of the ethnicity issue in Orthodox churches in America stems from the fact that immigration from the Middle East and Eastern Europe is relatively recent.  Even 60 years ago, if one was a Polish Catholic..he would not dare go down the street to the Irish Catholic church.  In my town in Pennsylvania, the larger church for the Irish is maybe 100 feet away from the smaller Polish church.  Of course, that doesn't matter now but at one time was a big deal.  The next generation of immigrants are not going to feel so "ethnic".  As it is with all descendants of immigrants (most of the U.S.), we remember our roots but we are Americans first.

In the end it's the faith not the country of origin that is important.  Russian, Greek, Arab, Polish, etc. and American Orthodox all believe the very same thing.

[stashko]

I just attended and received Holy Communion at a Greek church for the first time when I was out of town last weekend, and everyone was very welcoming and kind.

I attended a Greek Church A while Back And recieved Holy Communion ,I Didn't Confess there ,But at Another Church ,,The Priest asked Me For My Name, i told him, But He Struggled With Pronouncing it....He did Recognize I didn't Confess there ,but he still Gave Me Holy Communion....But the Sermon that he gave was about Confession, before recieving  Holy Communion  and he kept Looking at me to make sure i got the message....

[Tzimis]

Greek churches are like the Orthodox understanding of divinity. To those who are in proper order with her it is a all consuming light which fills the soul and to those who are not it is a terrible painful experience.  We should look at ourselves first in order to determine which statement holds true. It may take some time to discern whether the problem lay with the church or with us. 

[Paisius]

Greek churches are like the Orthodox understanding of divinity. To those who are in proper order with her it is a all consuming light which fills the soul and to those who are not it is a terrible painful experience.  We should look at ourselves first in order to determine which statement holds true. It may take some time to discern whether the problem lay with the church or with us.  

Sometimes the problem most certainly does lie with the parish. Unless you consider not being Greek a problem.  


It does bring to mind a funny story. I was visiting the local Greek parish and one of the older ladies was talking to me after the liturgy. Here's how it went.

Her: So what's your name.

Me: Joey

Her: Are you Orthodox?

Me: Yes.

Her: Are you Greek?

Me: No, I attend the OCA parish.

Her: Oh, so are you Russian?

Me: No I'm not.

Her: Oh.....well....that's okay.

[Father H]

Thank you.I think that I have a general problem dealing with "tribalism" in general. I don't believe that God is tribal. I guess I just don't "get" the ethnic pride thing.  Yes indeed I have been known to wear lederhosen and joppe, and my wife wears kimono but neither of us feels we are better than the other simply because of DNA.  I come from Southern California which is probably the most ethnically diverse area in the world.  I have not experienced the ethnic oppression that some cultures have so there is no need for me to show "pride' in my German ancestors.  I acknowledge that the Orthodox Church has survived as ethnic enclaves each of which has sufferred individually for the faith, and each consequently feels a particular "specialness', but for me personally this is impossible to comprehend.The Latin Church has never really suffered as individual geographic enclaves so I guess there is no special "pride" in belonging to the Bavarian Church as opposed to the Mexican Church for example.  That may be the difference that I "feel".Orthodoxy is clearly divided by language and culture that need to be considered in some, not all, cases. That is what I didn't quite understand when I made my initial contacts. That is the lesson I will take away from it all.Regards,
William Unland

As someone already mentioned, that is an issue of time.   Remember, Roman Catholicism was brought to America in the first great immigration in the mid-1800's.   Many generations had to pass before a German RC could go into an Italian RC or Polish RC.  Eventually, this disappeared, but it took 120 years.   Orthodoxy, although here in small numbers before that, came in largely in the second immigration in the mid 1910 decade.  It has another 2 decades to go before you can compare apples to apples, so to speak, as we are ultimately dealing here with the hard and soft pluralism of the past century. 

[WUnland]

Thank you.

I think that I have a general problem dealing with "tribalism" in general. I don't believe that God is tribal.
Regards,
William Unland

Might be hard then to worship the God of the Hebrews and Israel to which the rest of us are grafted.

But many Christians like to forget all that stuff.

My dear friend,

Thank you, but that is certainly not my reference.  Of course I acknowledge the tribe of Israel as the foundation upon which the Church of Jesus is based.  I was using tribal in the new sociological sense of the group that I happened to be born a member of.  When I said that God is not tribal I was opining that since the apostles decided that the Greek and other gentile converts would NOT have to follow the dietary laws and such of the Jews that at that point the "tribal" nature of the faith disappeared.


Thank you also to all who have pointed out the RCC "ethnic" problems that I had not considered.  Coming from a non immigrant family I never experienced these and had given it no thought, but of course you are right about them.

In my own case my father's family was German, but my mother's Scots, Portuguese, and Hawaiian!  Consequently I have trouble deciding exactly what "tribe" I belong to sometimes Now throw Japanese into the mix...........you tell me.

Anyway, I see the "ethnic" issues a bit differently than when I started so I thank all for that.

And to the poster that mentioned that So. Baptists hate Catholics more than Orthodox, no need to tell me, my family is German Baptist.  They think that I eat babies as a Catholic.  Orthodox conversion might kill a few

Regards,
William Unland

[Tzimis]

Greek churches are like the Orthodox understanding of divinity. To those who are in proper order with her it is a all consuming light which fills the soul and to those who are not it is a terrible painful experience.  We should look at ourselves first in order to determine which statement holds true. It may take some time to discern whether the problem lay with the church or with us.  

Sometimes the problem most certainly does lie with the parish. Unless you consider not being Greek a problem.  


It does bring to mind a funny story. I was visiting the local Greek parish and one of the older ladies was talking to me after the liturgy. Here's how it went.

Her: So what's your name.

Me: Joey

Her: Are you Orthodox?

Me: Yes.

Her: Are you Greek?

Me: No, I attend the OCA parish.

Her: Oh, so are you Russian?

Me: No I'm not.

Her: Oh.....well....that's okay.

This is exactly my point. Those words to me sound perfectly fine. Your taking her OK to mean underachievement of some sort and imposing a bias to her words. A clear fabrication of your own doing. While if it was a different subject matter you would have viewed the same words as just fine. The clear indicator that the Greek lady has not this bias is the way she stated Russian. Because a Greek person who is bias would have bin bias towards Russians as well. Since they aren't Greek either.

[katherineofdixie]

The Latin Church has never really suffered as individual geographic enclaves so I guess there is no special "pride" in belonging to the Bavarian Church as opposed to the Mexican Church for example.  That may be the difference that I "feel".

Oh, dear. That is not what I have heard. You really must talk to my husband, who grew up Irish Catholic, in an Irish Catholic neighborhood and parish, who went to Irish Catholic parochial schools, and raised money for the widows and orphans of the Struggle. I'd be willing to bet that Catholics of Italian and other ethnic heritages felt the same way, not too long ago.

As a matter of fact, not that long ago, if you went to a small town in Lutherland (Minnesota, or Wisconsin) you would more than likely find several Lutheran churches: the Finnish, Swedish, German and English.

It is a common immigrant experience to gather with fellow immigrants of the same ethnic heritage and faith. My former Lutheran church was originally known as the German Lutheran Congregation and up until WWII had services, catechism and conducted church council meetings in German.

No, the Orthodox are not unique in this, except that their immigration pattern has, generally speaking, been more recent than the Irish or Germans.

[Saint Iaint]

I think maybe you've misunderstood a bit.

The Greeks merely recognized (perhaps less than graciously) that your Roman Catholic background would mean that there would first need to be a period of deconstructing your faith.

This is understandable and necessary from their perspective...

The fact is that it's easier many times to start with someone who has had no previous defined faith tradition.

Roman Catholicism is similar in many ways to Orthodoxy... but it is also very different. Someone who believes in the authoritative primacy of the "Chair of Peter" (but only in the Vatican) docrine often may have a hard time letting that go.

It seems to me that in many places in the States, there are converts to Orthodoxy entering into the Priesthood very, very quickly!

I for one would be more comfortable with a longer conversion process. How long does it take to strip away 20 years of Roman Catholic (or even worse Protestant) indoctrination?

I don't think 20 years can be erased in 6 months. It takes a lot of work and priests should want to see a long period of learning (and for converts un-learning) before even thinking about going any further.

Like the Greek Priests said... Attend Orthodox Liturgies; LEARN for a year first - and take it from there.

All the best to you,

†IC XC†
†NI KA†

[Paisius]

This is exactly my point. Those words to me sound perfectly fine. Your taking her OK to mean underachievement of some sort and imposing a bias to her words. A clear fabrication of your own doing. While if it was a different subject matter you would have viewed the same words as just fine. The clear indicator that the Greek lady has not this bias is the way she stated Russian. Because a Greek person who is bias would have bin bias towards Russians as well. Since they aren't Greek either.

I never said she was biased and I never said her words weren't fine. Methinks you are the one fabricating things. 

[WUnland]

.

Roman Catholicism is similar in many ways to Orthodoxy... but it is also very different. Someone who believes in the authoritative primacy of the "Chair of Peter" (but only in the Vatican) doctrine often may have a hard time letting that go.

Thank you for your thoughts and I do not disagree that if time permits entry into the Church should never be rushed.  

Interestingly, Papal primacy/infallibility is not something that I have ever consciously thought about......EVER. IT is NOT part of my daily practice nor what I might consider the core of my faith. I know that it is a point of contention between the Orthodox and Latin Churches, but only in an intellectual sense.  I have never seen it as of much importance to MY spiritual life.

The Pope's "authority" over Catholic hierarchy has never affected me personally, and infallibility is limited to "ex cathedra" pronouncement on dogma as determined by the college of Cardinals. IT does not apply to the every day speeches and seemingly incessant pastoral letters and so forth. Quite frankly, it has little to nothing to do with my prayer life, or sacramental life.  In short it isn't important, at least to ME.  It has always seemed to be an "administrative" tool for the purpose of settling differences of opinion and interpretation of issues such as the" number of angles that can dance on the head of a pin" type debates.  Rarely does what a Pope says have any affect on the core belief system.....or at least I hope so.

I can understand why the Orthodox don't ascribe to it all.  The "first among equals" has always seemed entirely reasonable and logical to me.  

I guess what I am suggesting is that early Church politics about who the "boss" is are really not of much importance to those Catholics like myself who are only trying to live the faith and save our souls. Yes I can see that it poses great administrative difficulty for any future renewal between the Catholic and Orthodox, but I would respectfully ask the question :  Is THIS really what separates you and I as we both try to live our potential as followers of Christ?

Yes I may need a bit of deconstruction. The "Theosis" understanding of salvation is different, and the liturgy and personal prayer are different, but I dare say the Pope's political status just isn't that big of a deal to me......and I emphasize ME.  Right now I accept the pope as my ultimate religious authority because I am a member of the Church that he is the legitimate head of.  Does that mean I believe that YOU should feel the same.......in a word NO.

Best regards,
William Unland

[Tzimis]

This is exactly my point. Those words to me sound perfectly fine. Your taking her OK to mean underachievement of some sort and imposing a bias to her words. A clear fabrication of your own doing. While if it was a different subject matter you would have viewed the same words as just fine. The clear indicator that the Greek lady has not this bias is the way she stated Russian. Because a Greek person who is bias would have bin bias towards Russians as well. Since they aren't Greek either.

I never said she was biased and I never said her words weren't fine. Methinks you are the one fabricating things. 

Methinks sauce and gravy is the same thing.

[orthonorm]

Baptists hate Catholics more than Orthodox

It's because they don't know about them.

[Alveus Lacuna]

Baptists hate Catholics more than Orthodox

But they hate the Orthodox more than the Assyrian Church of the East. 

[orthonorm]

Baptists hate Catholics more than Orthodox

But they hate the Orthodox more than the Assyrian Church of the East.  

Growing up in a Baptist church all they knew about Catholics was that they worshipped Mary and the Pope was the Anti-Christ.

One out of two ain't bad.

EDIT: The above is intended as humor, satire, etc, if not immediately obvious to the hysterical among us.

[Alveus Lacuna]

Growing up in a Baptist church all they knew about Catholics was that they worshipped Mary and the Pope was the Anti-Christ.

One out of two ain't bad.

*rimshot*

[Saint Iaint]

Thank you.

I think that I have a general problem dealing with "tribalism" in general. I don't believe that God is tribal.
Regards,
William Unland

Might be hard then to worship the God of the Hebrews and Israel to which the rest of us are grafted.

But many Christians like to forget all that stuff.

My dear friend,

Thank you, but that is certainly not my reference.  Of course I acknowledge the tribe of Israel as the foundation upon which the Church of Jesus is based.  I was using tribal in the new sociological sense of the group that I happened to be born a member of.  When I said that God is not tribal I was opining that since the apostles decided that the Greek and other gentile converts would NOT have to follow the dietary laws and such of the Jews that at that point the "tribal" nature of the faith disappeared.

(...)

Exactly William!

It isn't that, "many Christians like to forget all that stuff"... - It's that 'all that stuff' is erroneous!

Israel is the Church.

Israel has always been the Church.

All of the Old Testament Saints belong to the New Testament Church!

Israel is not composed of any nation or race... Israel is composed of all those who have accepted and obey Jesus the Christ in faith and deed.

New Testament Israel has been grafted onto Old Testament Israel. Old Testament Israel does not exist on earth any longer... Those OT Saints which had been faithful to God; those who looked to Christ and wrote of Him and prepared the world for His coming in the flesh... all those before Christ's time in the flesh were given the opportunity to accept Him when He entered into death to destroy death.

Only the faithful will enter the promised land. They are not all Israel who are of Israel. God is able to raise up sons of Israel from stones.

Hebrew was not synonymous with Israel - and 'Jew' is certainly not either.

~~~ ~~~ ~~~

Anyhow William, as for Pope and his authority/influence over you... it's there whether you know it or not.

It permeates every aspect of Roman Catholicism and of those who commune with the Pope.

The Protestant movement and the resulting Reformation were a direct result of things done by the Pope. The whole sordid mess is entirely; 100% the fault of the Vatican and the Pope (IMO).

Orthodoxy means roughly 'correct worship'. This means by our very nature - we must be vehemently opposed to any error. I believe having Orthodoxy also means a degree of Orthopraxy.

As a former RC myself... I don't believe that the Roman Catholics have much left of either.

That's why I now consider myself Eastern Orthodox.

†IC XC†
†NI KA†
 

[Victoria]

this is a tough one-i recently started attending OC(about 5 months now) and initially i went to Russian church(i thought because i am from Ukraine it would be the right fit). Alas, that was not to be-it was a small mission church and even though there were less than 20 people there, they kind of looked at me and then i was ignored. Not even hello. Priest was nice enough and welcomed me there but the rest of the people just kind of stared. I was very put out and because of that didn't return to OC for another 6 months after that. I decided to try again and went to Greek church where i was very warmly welcomed and where i still attend. Its a bit more "liberal" that i like but where i live there are only 2 OC churches so i have to make do. Don't let unwelcoming attitudes turn you off OC, i would still pursue it

[Hamartolos]

.

Roman Catholicism is similar in many ways to Orthodoxy... but it is also very different. Someone who believes in the authoritative primacy of the "Chair of Peter" (but only in the Vatican) doctrine often may have a hard time letting that go.

Thank you for your thoughts and I do not disagree that if time permits entry into the Church should never be rushed.  

Interestingly, Papal primacy/infallibility is not something that I have ever consciously thought about......EVER. IT is NOT part of my daily practice nor what I might consider the core of my faith. I know that it is a point of contention between the Orthodox and Latin Churches, but only in an intellectual sense.  I have never seen it as of much importance to MY spiritual life.

The Pope's "authority" over Catholic hierarchy has never affected me personally, and infallibility is limited to "ex cathedra" pronouncement on dogma as determined by the college of Cardinals. IT does not apply to the every day speeches and seemingly incessant pastoral letters and so forth. Quite frankly, it has little to nothing to do with my prayer life, or sacramental life.  In short it isn't important, at least to ME.  It has always seemed to be an "administrative" tool for the purpose of settling differences of opinion and interpretation of issues such as the" number of angles that can dance on the head of a pin" type debates.  Rarely does what a Pope says have any affect on the core belief system.....or at least I hope so.

I can understand why the Orthodox don't ascribe to it all.  The "first among equals" has always seemed entirely reasonable and logical to me.  

I guess what I am suggesting is that early Church politics about who the "boss" is are really not of much importance to those Catholics like myself who are only trying to live the faith and save our souls. Yes I can see that it poses great administrative difficulty for any future renewal between the Catholic and Orthodox, but I would respectfully ask the question :  Is THIS really what separates you and I as we both try to live our potential as followers of Christ?

Yes I may need a bit of deconstruction. The "Theosis" understanding of salvation is different, and the liturgy and personal prayer are different, but I dare say the Pope's political status just isn't that big of a deal to me......and I emphasize ME.  Right now I accept the pope as my ultimate religious authority because I am a member of the Church that he is the legitimate head of.  Does that mean I believe that YOU should feel the same.......in a word NO.

Best regards,
William Unland

I'll have to respectfully disagree with you here William.  For the Orthodox, Papal primacy/infallibility isn't really a type of 'management' issue but is really a core spiritual one.  While many (I'd say most) Catholics feel and think the way you do on this issue, it's something that shouldn't be overlooked.  The Pope can play a huge part in ones faith or devotion.  Consider the Catholics of pre-Vatican II.  While no dogmatic changes occurred, many, many, disciplinary laws changed with a few swift pen strikes.  To that affect, so did the liturgy and all other sacraments.  While the faith itself may be the same on paper, it has been related to the faithful in an entirely different way.  No bishop in the Orthodox Church could ever comprehend doing this.  

What I'm saying is, the reason it's a huge issue for the Orthodox is more than for historical and practical reasons.  It has everything to do with Faith and how the Gospel is related to God's people, among other things.  

I understand, though, exactly what you're saying.  I will promise you (as a former practicing Catholic) that you will be blown away as you start to see the differences between the Orthodox and Catholic view of God, sin, salvation, etc.  It is QUITE different and has an entirely different approach.  

If you need any direction in respect to reading material, websites, etc..please feel free to ask me or anyone else on this board!  Keep us updated on your spiritual journey!

[WUnland]

Thank you to all whom continue to give me insight and support.

I can see that the Pope thing would definitely be a sticking point from the Orthodox point of view, and I most certainly agree that the Pope's decisions, particularly regarding liturgy are what is driving me towards Orthodoxy.  I have honestly thought that the Pope was not an issue for MY OWN PERSONAL approach towards God in my own daily practice, but of course since I can't stand the protestant liturgy that now passes as Catholic I guess the Pope's whims do indeed affect me. Thank you for helping me see that point.

The current Pope's embrace of the Neo-Catecuminal Way movement is really the last straw for me with my own Church.  Some of you may have read how the Japanese Bishops had ordered them out of Japan for 5 years.  They were overruled by the Pope. As far as I am concerned it is a protestant cult founded by a communist atheist student of Pablo Picasso.  Why the Pope would allow these people to corrupt the sacraments, and turn the Mass into a charismatic tent meeting, with dancing and strumming guitars is beyond me.  I assume it is to increase church membersip by appealing to those whose commitment to the faith is limited to their own entertainment and feeling of power over God, because their liturgy is ME, US, not the divine.  But I apologize for the rant.  It all just occured to me while reading the above post.  Yes indeed the Pope does affect me, and as long as I am a member of the Catholic Church I must submit.  But I will not like it

Oh just curious.  Why do people on this forum use anonymous names?  I see no need to, just curious since the subject matter is hardly anything to require anonymity.

Best regards,
William Unland

[Iconodule]

Thank you to all whom continue to give me insight and support.\Oh just curious.  Why do people on this forum use anonymous names?  I see no need to, just curious since the subject matter is hardly anything to require anonymity.

I post anonymously so that, in years to come, no one will hold me to account for my dumb remarks.

[Irish Melkite]

William,

Welcome to the forum. Not sure if you indicated where you are in Japan, but you might want to check out St Jude Mission. It is of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kyivan Patriarchate. The UOC-KP is, as will be quickly noted here, a non-canonical Orthodox Church - meaning that it is presently not in communion with any of the canonical Churches, due to a variety of issues, which I would describe as ecclesio-political, but others here may see differently.

Father Paul Koroluk, the priest who serves St Jude's is English-speaking and, from what I know of him from elsewhere on the web, a very welcoming individual. The earliest members of the community were Ukrainian, but it's currently got a much broader base and the Divine Liturgy and other services are, from what I understand, conducted alternatively in English and Ukrainian, with some Japanese also used.

Many years,

Neil

[Greywalk]

I for one would be more comfortable with a longer conversion process. How long does it take to strip away 20 years of Roman Catholic (or even worse Protestant) indoctrination?

I

Can't speak to the catholic process but as one who was raised protestant, and served as the pastor of a medium sized congregational polity church...seminary trained...not as long as you think.  My journey was 16 years...by fits and halts...which is the primary reason for the length of time.  You would be surprised how much of the Orthodox views are taught in Baptist seminaries.  While there are many arreas of difference the Seminaries present them all and discuss them from a Baptist viewpoint.  However many students are honest spiritually and intellectually and thus seek the Orthodx viewpoint on things form an Orthodox priest or deacon.  I just chose to think on things for a long time,  call me slow if you want. 

[Hamartolos]

I for one would be more comfortable with a longer conversion process. How long does it take to strip away 20 years of Roman Catholic (or even worse Protestant) indoctrination?

I

I can tell you that it takes a long time for Catholics.  My priest, a former Calvinist, had a long go at it and his wife, a former Catholic, had an even harder time.  I suppose it has something to do with the idea that we are brought up to believe Catholicism is the one, true, church.  If we leave it, we go to hell.    Kidding, kind of.  

While there is a lot that is very much different in Orthodox theology, it's closer than Protestantism is.  For example, as a Catholic, I had to strip away some notions about the Theotokos while changing what I've always believed about her.  Yet, I already had devotion to her.  

I think while it is probably hard for a Protestant to come to Orthodoxy and embrace Saints and the like, it's easier for a Catholic yet at the same time many things have to be changed.  Same with many other issues.  In Orthodoxy, it may seem the same, but it's not at all.  I went from believing in 7 sacraments and all the theology behind them, to 7 mysteries and all the theology behind them!  Hope that makes sense!  If it doesn't, it shows how difficult it is!!

[Carl Kraeff (Second Chance)]

Thank you to all whom continue to give me insight and support.\Oh just curious.  Why do people on this forum use anonymous names?  I see no need to, just curious since the subject matter is hardly anything to require anonymity.

I post anonymously so that, in years to come, no one will hold me to account for my dumb remarks.

Ditto. Also because it is the common practice here.

[katherineofdixie]

I can tell you that it takes a long time for Catholics.  

Just anecdotal, of course, but it took my husband, a former Irish Catholic, far less time than it did me, a former Lutheran! He was hooked almost immediately! (Of course, that is partly due to our natures - he is far more intuitive and impulsive. I tend to be "well, now, on the one hand,...and then on the other hand...") He said that he felt like he had finally found the real Catholic Church - no offense.

[Tzimis]

I for one would be more comfortable with a longer conversion process. How long does it take to strip away 20 years of Roman Catholic (or even worse Protestant) indoctrination?

I

I can tell you that it takes a long time for Catholics.  My priest, a former Calvinist, had a long go at it and his wife, a former Catholic, had an even harder time.  I suppose it has something to do with the idea that we are brought up to believe Catholicism is the one, true, church.  If we leave it, we go to hell.    Kidding, kind of.  

While there is a lot that is very much different in Orthodox theology, it's closer than Protestantism is.  For example, as a Catholic, I had to strip away some notions about the Theotokos while changing what I've always believed about her.  Yet, I already had devotion to her.  

I think while it is probably hard for a Protestant to come to Orthodoxy and embrace Saints and the like, it's easier for a Catholic yet at the same time many things have to be changed.  Same with many other issues.  In Orthodoxy, it may seem the same, but it's not at all.  I went from believing in 7 sacraments and all the theology behind them, to 7 mysteries and all the theology behind them!  Hope that makes sense!  If it doesn't, it shows how difficult it is!!

 People are taught to look at the world a specific way. A false way. That way leads our whole system of thought into a specific direction without knowing that it's wrong.
One of the resent fathers. I can not recall who right now. Calls it a short circuit in the brain. What Orthodoxy does. If we allow it to of course. Is to shift our core beliefs and transform our false understanding. Even though the color red remains red. What changes is us. As we see the color red in a new light.
   The difficulty I see is in seeing that a short circuit exists. There is nothing to set our goal towards. Wanting to change is hard enough when one has a goal in mind.  Without knowing what we want to change into. It even harder. That is why I believe god guides those who make the first move and is even involved in the move itself. I also believe it comes down to faith in his Church.

[Hamartolos]

I can tell you that it takes a long time for Catholics.  

Just anecdotal, of course, but it took my husband, a former Irish Catholic, far less time than it did me, a former Lutheran! He was hooked almost immediately! (Of course, that is partly due to our natures - he is far more intuitive and impulsive. I tend to be "well, now, on the one hand,...and then on the other hand...") He said that he felt like he had finally found the real Catholic Church - no offense.

I, of course, agree that the Orthodox Church is the real Catholic Church.  I meant that it took me and others I know a long time in shedding off old Catholic dogmas/beliefs/practices etc.. It's funny, so many people accept Orthodoxy (in their heart) almost immediately upon seeing a Liturgy; even if they don't convert for years later!  I remember the first time I saw an Iconostasis through a crack in a door (long story), and that was the beginning of the end of my involvement with Roman Catholicism! 

[WUnland]

Thank you,

I am curious about the greater Orthodox Church teaching on the attendance of a "non-canonical" church.  Is it similar to the SSPX problem in the Latin church.  By SSPX I mean the conservative priestly confraternity that is considered "valid" by the Latin Church but not "Licit" as they have no jurisdiction from Rome.  Consequently it is strongly recommended that RC members NOT attend their services.  Some argue that their sacraments may be invalid due to the "jurisdiction" problem.

Is this Ukrainian Church considered "valid" by the various Patriarchies?

Thanks,
Bill Unland

William,

Welcome to the forum. Not sure if you indicated where you are in Japan, but you might want to check out St Jude Mission. It is of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kyivan Patriarchate. The UOC-KP is, as will be quickly noted here, a non-canonical Orthodox Church - meaning that it is presently not in communion with any of the canonical Churches, due to a variety of issues, which I would describe as ecclesio-political, but others here may see differently.

Father Paul Koroluk, the priest who serves St Jude's is English-speaking and, from what I know of him from elsewhere on the web, a very welcoming individual. The earliest members of the community were Ukrainian, but it's currently got a much broader base and the Divine Liturgy and other services are, from what I understand, conducted alternatively in English and Ukrainian, with some Japanese also used.

Many years,

Neil