Topic: Not a particularly welcoming start

[mike]

Thank you,

I am curious about the greater Orthodox Church teaching on the attendance of a "non-canonical" church.  Is it similar to the SSPX problem in the Latin church.  By SSPX I mean the conservative priestly confraternity that is considered "valid" by the Latin Church but not "Licit" as they have no jurisdiction from Rome.  Consequently it is strongly recommended that RC members NOT attend their services.  Some argue that their sacraments may be invalid due to the "jurisdiction" problem.

Is this Ukrainian Church considered "valid" by the various Patriarchies?

Thanks,
Bill Unland

There is no 'valid' - 'licit' distinction in the Orthodox sacramentology. Sacrament is valid or is not valid, period. None of the mainstream Eastern Orthodox Churches recognises Kiev Patriarchate as the Orthodox Church and is in communion with it.

If I were you I would stich with the Orthodox Church in Japan.

http://www.orthodoxjapan.jp/

[Greywalk]

[As someone already mentioned, that is an issue of time.   Remember, Roman Catholicism was brought to America in the first great immigration in the mid-1800's.   Many generations had to pass before a German RC could go into an Italian RC or Polish RC.  Eventually, this disappeared, but it took 120 years.   Orthodoxy, although here in small numbers before that, came in largely in the second immigration in the mid 1910 decade.  It has another 2 decades to go before you can compare apples to apples, so to speak, as we are ultimately dealing here with the hard and soft pluralism of the past century. 

OK somehow I missed this post in my initial reading.  I will have to dispute the facts of this one.  Having attended college in one of the first catholic areas of the the original 13 English colonies, St Mary's County of Maryland, established in 1635.  It was the scene of the first catholic mass celebrated in the English section of colonial American.   Maryland as a result of its strong Catholic presence and a strong Church of Engliand presence adopted religious toleration.

"The county is also home to the first Catholic Mass celebrated in the original thirteen colonies.
St. Mary's County was the first county established in Maryland, in 1637, probably by an order of the Governor."

[Alpo]

I thougt that we have here some American Catechumen from the Japanese Church? Maybe WUnland could try to PM him if someone remebers who he was.

[mike]

GregoryLA

[Father H]

[As someone already mentioned, that is an issue of time.   Remember, Roman Catholicism was brought to America in the first great immigration in the mid-1800's.   Many generations had to pass before a German RC could go into an Italian RC or Polish RC.  Eventually, this disappeared, but it took 120 years.   Orthodoxy, although here in small numbers before that, came in largely in the second immigration in the mid 1910 decade.  It has another 2 decades to go before you can compare apples to apples, so to speak, as we are ultimately dealing here with the hard and soft pluralism of the past century. 

OK somehow I missed this post in my initial reading.  I will have to dispute the facts of this one.  Having attended college in one of the first catholic areas of the the original 13 English colonies, St Mary's County of Maryland, established in 1635.  It was the scene of the first catholic mass celebrated in the English section of colonial American.   Maryland as a result of its strong Catholic presence and a strong Church of Engliand presence adopted religious toleration."The county is also home to the first Catholic Mass celebrated in the original thirteen colonies.St. Mary's County was the first county established in Maryland, in 1637, probably by an order of the Governor."

Right, "brought to America" was probably not the best phraseology (both the "brought to" and the "America" part due to ambiguity), but again, I thought I had explained well enough that although RCism existed from the 1600's and Orthodoxy form the 1700's, realistically, RCism was only well-established in the US beginning with the 1st immigration, and Orthodoxy with the 2nd (although the 2nd would put even more time on the RC development as it was the major influx of Italians and Poles).  Surely you don't dispute this.

[Seraphim98]

I don't know if there is another, but I was catechized in the Orthodox Church in Japan during the time of Metropolitan Theodosius.

[Seraphim98]

Dear WUNland,

I don't know where you are in Japan, but I do know who you can contact and get expert information.

Fr. John Takahashi, formerly a priest of Holy Resurrection (Nicholai-do) Cathedral in Tokyo is now serving as Dean at Holy Trinity Cathedral in the San Francisco area according to the last information I possess. He is very knowledgable, speaks excellent English and is intimately familiar with the OCJ and its clergy. I am sure he could be of help to you.

Here is his contact information from the cathedral website:

Very Reverend John Takahashi, Dean
720 Duboce Ave.
San Francisco, CA 94117
Cell: 415-860-5020
Office: 415-673-8565
E-Mail: frjohn@holy-trinity.org

[WUnland]

Thank you very much for the kind assistance, and the contact information and web resources.

Thank you also to all whom have added to the discussion, particularly regarding the ethnic aspects of both the RCC and the Orthodox Church.

Regards,
William Unland

[Greywalk]

Right, "brought to America" was probably not the best phraseology (both the "brought to" and the "America" part due to ambiguity), but again, I thought I had explained well enough that although RCism existed from the 1600's and Orthodoxy form the 1700's, realistically, RCism was only well-established in the US beginning with the 1st immigration, and Orthodoxy with the 2nd (although the 2nd would put even more time on the RC development as it was the major influx of Italians and Poles).  Surely you don't dispute this.

Thank you Father.  I would not dispute RCism existence in colonial American from the 1600s nor the establishment of the Orthodoxy in the 1700s particularly along the west coast.  But I would dispute the 2nd RC development being with the major influx of the Italians in the 1880s.  By the time the Itallians arrived RC was thriving as its 2nd major influx was not the English catholics but rather the 1840 - 1870 Irish wave.  This was a huge tidal wave  However now I am being picky so forgive me.  Thanks for listening.

[Sauron]

I think that the inherent self consciousness of entering into a new place, and a new way of worshipping that seems quite "foreign" might have added to my perceptions. I will take all of the kind suggestions to heart and will try not to be so "sensitive".  I think that my impression may have also been influenced by my experiences here in Japan where I am the eternal outsider.  I walk on egg shells a lot here and am always aware that folks don't see me in the same manner as they see each other. No matter how long I am here, I can never be one of "them". They make that very clear.  Perhaps when I went to the US and talked to the priests I was still operating under the cultural hypersensitivity that I do in Japan, and perhaps that added to my discomfort.  I think that it is clear from what I have read in your responses that it is I who needs to "lighten up.

I thought I would reply because I thought my background might be relevant. I too come from a RCC background and am inquiring into Eastern Orthodoxy. I have also lived in Japan for several years and visit annually, and have a Japanese wife and children. You could say that I got the t-shirt.

The main point I wish to address is not directly religious. You mentioned in your original post the obstacle that no one at the local church speaks English. Since you are in Japan, that is your problem, not the church's. If you intend to live in Japan for any appreciable amount of time, do not live within an English bubble. Learn Japanese, make Japanese friends, and live in Japan. If you do this, you will not be "the eternal outsider".

To give an example, I once traveled to Tokyo to meet some friends. (I lived in rural Mie) I arrived at the appointed meeting spot a bit early and while I was waiting, an American family ask where the Tony Roma's restaurant was. I explained that I did not, but noted that there was a police box on the corner, to which they replied that they don't speak Japanese. I asked, "oh, are you on vacation?" to which the father replied, "no, we live here. We're from Yososuka base." I thought to myself that they hadn't lived in Japan for a day. I had this type of experience many times while living in Japan, meeting expatriates who socialized exclusively with other English speakers and even after years in Japan could not read at a kindergartener's level or say much more than "hello" and "one beer, please".

I hope my point is taken in that so long as you act as an outsider, you will feel like an outsider. I am sure the people at the local church want to welcome you. Let them.

[casisthename]

First off,

Hallo, willkommen. Gott, segne euch!

Anyhow, something that can be useful to remember is that in a way it is a cultural gathering. This may be there place to be with each other. To feel like they "belong". I grew up in an ethnic German Lutheran church and yes, there were German flags and we spoke German because it was a place where we felt like we could be ourselves in the cultural sense. This was especially, important to people who had difficulty with the English language. Which some people in the Greek parishes may have. It's not right for them to look down on you but it maybe partly be that they're just surprised. I know we were kind of surprised when someone would come to church and not look a lick German and speak English.

And it may also have something to do with the fact that it seems like people often underestimate the differences between the Orthodox Church and the Roman Catholic Church. When they heard you say you were interested they have thought you were unaware of this. Also, this may be a local thing but I've noticed a lot of people especially other students at my school (I go to an Evangelical college) go for  a while get hooked by what seems to be the exoticness of it seem to fully intend to join and then lose interest after it doesn't seem so exotic anymore.

Also, it's note worthy that it takes longer to join the Orthodox Church then most other churches. In some cases catechumen can take years. So, it would be odd for them to get too excited when it would take at least a few months anyhow.

[Christopher McAvoy]

Roman Catholicism is similar in many ways to Orthodoxy... but it is also very different. Someone who believes in the authoritative primacy of the "Chair of Peter" (but only in the Vatican) docrine often may have a hard time letting that go.

I have found it quite natural to put the picture of Our Great Lord and Father Kirill, The Most Holy Patriarch of Moscow and all Russia. to substutite the picture of of Pope Benedict XVI.

Honestly, Patriarch Kirill looks a bit more imposing in the his picture than does Benedict, I also heard that he excommunicates far more people (I admire a hierarch who is not afraid to excommunicate heretics.)

New forms of authority are not an issue for me.

If anything I'd have a harder time putting up Metropolitan Philip Saliba's picture..but thats another story..