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Arnaud
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« on: January 23, 2011, 03:01:12 PM »

Greetings everyone, in the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the one true God, amen.

In the Holy Scriptures, death is always designated by the metaphor of " sleep. " Such person " fell asleep. "

Except the fact that, before a body decomposes, its appearance in some way looks like somebody who sleeps, what are the other reasons of the use of such an expression ? How / Why / we " sleep " ?

Thanks.
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« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2011, 03:06:53 PM »

Because Christ conquered death, and death is killed, what occurs now is no longer a curse, but a blessing.  What occurs now therefore, we don't really call death in the sense of the curse, but a "departure."  It is a departure or sleep because this reminds us one day we will be awakened in the second coming of Christ.  As we say in the Creed, "We believe in the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the coming age."
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« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2011, 03:10:58 PM »

Because Christ conquered death, and death is killed, what occurs now is no longer a curse, but a blessing.  What occurs now therefore, we don't really call death in the sense of the curse, but a "departure."  It is a departure or sleep because this reminds us one day we will be awakened in the second coming of Christ.  As we say in the Creed, "We believe in the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the coming age."

What about our souls though before the second coming?
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« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2011, 03:38:46 PM »

Because Christ conquered death, and death is killed, what occurs now is no longer a curse, but a blessing.  What occurs now therefore, we don't really call death in the sense of the curse, but a "departure."  It is a departure or sleep because this reminds us one day we will be awakened in the second coming of Christ.  As we say in the Creed, "We believe in the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the coming age."

What about our souls though before the second coming?

Well, it seems by our liturgical practices we believe these souls are conscious and are able to pray for us and we for them.
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« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2011, 03:43:31 PM »

It is a departure or sleep because this reminds us one day we will be awakened in the second coming of Christ.  As we say in the Creed, "We believe in the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the coming age."

I understand what you wanted to mean but ...

In the Old Testament, as well as the New Testament, both, the justified and the unjustified are called one day to " rise up, " or be resurrected.

" And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, some to shame and everlasting contempt. Those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the firmament, and those who turn many to righteousness like the stars forever and ever. " Daniel 12 v. 2, 3

And according to the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church :

" The mystery of resurrection teaches that after death there will be resurrection. When a person dies, he does not remain destroyed and rotting, but rises again. How does he rise ? There will be a proclamation saying : " You who are dead arise. " There will be three invisible sounds of horns. At the first sounding of the horn, all the dust of bodies scattered above and beneath, in the sea, and on the land, that were eaten by wild animals, by the wind dispersed, or completely perished after death will be reassembled and gathered in their previous forms. When the second horn is sounded, the bones will be joined with the flesh and blood, and they will be perfect bodies but with no sign of life or movement until the apointed time. At the third soundind of the horn, the dead will rise in the twinkling of an eye, with the works that they did, whether good or bad, written out before them, the males as mature youths of thirty years, the females as mature maidens of fifteen years. They will rise in permanent form and with the faculty of speech, without any part lacking from the hairs of their heads down to their toenails. The dead will arise following the example of the Lord Jesus Christ, the firstborn who arose destroying corruption and the grave, having remained in the depths of the grave three days and three nights. He is the firstborn of all who died : " He became the initiator of the resurrection, because He is the firstborn to rise separated from the dead, " as Severus said ; during resurrection, they do not rise, as the tall, tall ; the short, short ; the fair skinned, fair skinned ; the dark skinned, dark skinned, the fat, fat, and the thin, thin. Instead each person will have the same body and form. " No one will be short or tall, fair skinned or dark skinned, " says Athanasius. Those who did good will rise resembling Christ, shining seven times brighter than the sun. But those who did evil will rise resembling the devil, clothed in darkness. " The righteous will stand on the Lord's right hand, and those who did evil on the Lord's left hand. " Then he will make judgment, saying to those on His right hand, " Come blessed of my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. " " To those on His left hand he will say, " Be separated from me, enemies of my Father, impure of soul to the fire of Gehannam where the fire is not quenched, where the worm does not sleep, and where is eternal mourning, But the righteous into life eternal. " "



 







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« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2011, 03:53:07 PM »

What about our souls though before the second coming ?

Yes, the souls of the true Christians are in a celestial state, and they experience a " foretaste " of the eternal heavenly kingdom. All the departed still await the general resurrection, the day when their souls will be reunited with their bodies, which are transformed into a glorified state like Christ's own body.
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« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2011, 04:12:08 PM »

Okay?

So you still have any questions?
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« Reply #7 on: January 23, 2011, 05:05:41 PM »

Okay?

So you still have any questions?

As an answer to my question, you said :
Quote
Because Christ conquered death, and death is killed, what occurs now is no longer a curse, but a blessing.  What occurs now therefore, we don't really call death in the sense of the curse, but a " departure. " It is a departure or sleep because this reminds us one day we will be awakened in the second coming of Christ.

Then I understand that it cannot be one of the reasons for which such an expression is used, because those who are not saved are called to " wake up " also. My point was that the sleep of death is also for the unjustified. If you are saying that " to fall asleep " is only for the Christians and not for the others, because " Christ conquered death, " I was pointing to you that it was not. 

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« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2011, 05:08:06 PM »

So my question is still relevant ...
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« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2011, 05:34:01 PM »

Quote from: Arnaud link=topic=33152.msg523942#msg523942
If you are saying that " to fall asleep " is only for the Christians and not for the others

I never said that.  Nor do I disagree with anything that you said.
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If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2011, 05:35:06 PM »

So my question is still relevant ...


I don't understand what your question is.  You answered your own question.  All who die will awake again.  That is why it's a departure.
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« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2011, 11:38:17 PM »

Jesus called some people that where alive ,the Living dead because they were dead in Fath or no faith so he said let the dead bury the dead...The ones he Loved and that Had Faith, thou they were dead ,he used the gentler word fallen asleep.....Doesn't Holy Scripture mention somewhere the parting of the soul from the Body when the silver cord, that hold the soul to the body is seperated,,, can't remember where though Huh
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« Reply #12 on: January 25, 2011, 10:27:15 AM »

Jesus called some people that where alive ,the Living dead because they were dead in Fath or no faith so he said let the dead bury the dead...The ones he Loved and that Had Faith, thou they were dead ,he used the gentler word fallen asleep.....Doesn't Holy Scripture mention somewhere the parting of the soul from the Body when the silver cord, that hold the soul to the body is seperated,,, can't remember where though Huh

"Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:

Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. " (Ecclesiastes 12:5-7)
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« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2011, 11:56:16 AM »


Excellent Work Finding It Grin......This Part does it apply to people that die in violence, wars other ways than natural death.......
                                                         [golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. ]


 



Jesus called some people that where alive ,the Living dead because they were dead in Fath or no faith so he said let the dead bury the dead...The ones he Loved and that Had Faith, thou they were dead ,he used the gentler word fallen asleep.....Doesn't Holy Scripture mention somewhere the parting of the soul from the Body when the silver cord, that hold the soul to the body is seperated,,, can't remember where though Huh

"Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:

Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.

Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. " (Ecclesiastes 12:5-7)
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« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2011, 02:32:08 PM »

Quote
I never said that.  Nor do I disagree with anything that you said.

Sorry my brother, I just got what you said. My English is not perfect ( I am French-speaking ) thus sometimes I have to read again several times before to understand indeed.

Quote
I don't understand what your question is. You answered your own question. All who die will awake again. That is why it's a departure.

But if the term " to fall asleep " relates to the body, if someone dies savagely, cut in pieces or burned, can we say that this person " fell asleep " ? Or even, given that the body disintegrates and it becomes dust, how we can say that bones or dust are in sleep ? The dust scatters and there is not dust anymore, it becomes natural fertilizer for the ground. I know that I complicate myself too sometimes Wink but I like to understand.

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« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2011, 07:29:04 PM »

Quote
I never said that.  Nor do I disagree with anything that you said.

Sorry my brother, I just got what you said. My English is not perfect ( I am French-speaking ) thus sometimes I have to read again several times before to understand indeed.

Quote
I don't understand what your question is. You answered your own question. All who die will awake again. That is why it's a departure.

But if the term " to fall asleep " relates to the body, if someone dies savagely, cut in pieces or burned, can we say that this person " fell asleep " ? Or even, given that the body disintegrates and it becomes dust, how we can say that bones or dust are in sleep ? The dust scatters and there is not dust anymore, it becomes natural fertilizer for the ground. I know that I complicate myself too sometimes Wink but I like to understand.

No matter what happens to the flesh, it is flesh, and as it is flesh it is corruptible and it becomes corruptible as anything else around it.  It decays, it becomes food for the land around it.

Before Christ, death was not a pleasant thing.  It was looked at as a case of defeat in Jewish circles.  All will go to Sheol.  It was considered that life was vain no matter how hard one tries, one dies and ends up in a state of sadness.  But then comes Christ, and our perception of death changes.  Even if our bodies were eaten by lions, we are told not to be afraid of that which kills the body.  We will be raised from the dead one day in a glorified body, with our flesh, but our flesh is now being deified.  That is the point of the second coming of Christ and the resurrection of the dead.  Without Christ's resurrection, we would all be in a state of "Sheol" again, and life as we know it would be vain.

How Christ will raise our bodies, no one really knows for sure.  St. Paul teaches, our bodies our sown in corruption and raised in incorruption.  So the bodies we have now are seeds for the bodies we will receive later, and like any fruit that contains a seed, it rots, it spreads on the ground, and it becomes food for the ground, but potentially our seed, whatever that seed may be (I think the spirit is our seed), will grow in a Resurrection for the second coming.  The job for us it seems to keep our seeds in good fruit, and not in bad fruit, so that no matter what happens to the body, the seed becomes strong and eventually be good for growth.  Otherwise, some seeds will grow into a body that is not glorified and will be plucked out and lead into a fire.
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« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2011, 09:56:54 PM »

Quote
No matter what happens to the flesh, it is flesh, and as it is flesh it is corruptible and it becomes corruptible as anything else around it.  It decays, it becomes food for the land around it.

I agree as I also agree with the rest of what you said. I understand that one day our bodies will be resurrected and awakened when our souls & spirits will be reunited with our bodies. But, by waiting this day, when we shall have again a body and when it will be woken, being united with the soul and the spirit, by waiting this day ... what is sleeping ? I don't understand how the term of " sleep " can designate the physical death, the corruption of the body, or even its complete disappearance. I shall have been able to understand the expression if the body remained more or less intact and did not decompose, but it is not the case.


Maybe you will be also able to explain me a part of the passage I have myself quoted :

" ... At the first sounding of the horn, all the dust of bodies scattered above and beneath, in the sea, and on the land, that were eaten by wild animals, by the wind dispersed, or completely perished after death will be reassembled and gathered in their previous forms ... "

How what has completely perished can be reassembled ?

Selam

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« Reply #17 on: February 01, 2011, 11:25:16 AM »

How what has completely perished can be reassembled ?

I see what you're saying.

Well, that is a mystery.  How we will get our bodies back is a matter in which only God knows how and hasn't been revealed to us.

But we do try our best to practice a reverence to any body as much as we can by burying it together, which indicates that this body will be raised.  If it has been eaten and destroyed into pieces, then we trust in God's ways, which are sometimes unknown as of yet.  Inasmuch as we don't know when His second coming is, we also don't know the mechanism of raising dead flesh.  We just know it will happen because He rose from the dead.
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Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2011, 06:17:33 AM »

Thanks.

In what sense the corrupted body is now deified ( after death / departure ) ?
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« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2011, 09:25:59 AM »

How what has completely perished can be reassembled ?

I see what you're saying.

Well, that is a mystery.  How we will get our bodies back is a matter in which only God knows how and hasn't been revealed to us.

But we do try our best to practice a reverence to any body as much as we can by burying it together, which indicates that this body will be raised.  If it has been eaten and destroyed into pieces, then we trust in God's ways, which are sometimes unknown as of yet.  Inasmuch as we don't know when His second coming is, we also don't know the mechanism of raising dead flesh.  We just know it will happen because He rose from the dead.

On a related note, we should recognize that at death the body does not have a single molecule that it had at birth, each one of those molecule being replaced many times over over time.
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« Reply #20 on: February 07, 2011, 06:05:54 PM »

Thanks.

In what sense the corrupted body is now deified ( after death / departure ) ?

I don't understand the question?  How is one deified?  It's an ongoing process.  Even after general resurrection where we get our glorified bodies, there is still always room for more growth and deification.
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Vain existence can never exist, for \\\"unless the LORD builds the house, the builders labor in vain.\\\" (Psalm 127)

If the faith is unchanged and rock solid, then the gates of Hades never prevailed in the end.
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