OrthodoxChristianity.net
August 27, 2014, 09:22:12 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News: Reminder: No political discussions in the public fora.  If you do not have access to the private Politics Forum, please send a PM to Fr. George.
 
   Home   Help Calendar Contact Treasury Tags Login Register  
Pages: 1   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: The Rosary  (Read 8124 times) Average Rating: 0
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« on: April 30, 2004, 11:54:42 PM »

Greetings, all...

Had a conversation with a devout RC co-worker today concerning the use of prayer ropes "versus" rosaries.  I myself *use* a rosary for my prayers but ususally say the Jesus Prayer on the decades.

My question: What are y'all's takes (hey, I'm Texan!) on what could be seen as an excessive emphasis on Mary within the Latin Rosary?  Why the continual meditation on her instead of Christ, as in the Eastern tradition?  I've heard that St. Seraphim of Sarov wrote someone concerning the use of the rosary, but is repetitious Marian prayer compatible at all with traditional (Eastern) Orthodox prayer?

Peace,

Bryan Peter
Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
Ben
Unabashedly Pro-Life
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,260



« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2004, 12:07:05 AM »

Pedro,

I know some Orthodox Christians who pray the Rosary, but none on a regular basis, like every day.

I have spoken with different Orthodox priests about praying the Rosary, and the only one who had a problem with it was a priest of ROAC.

The Rosary contains nothing that is contrary to Orthodoxy. The Our Father, the Hail Mary, the Glory Be, the Jesus Prayer, the Apostles creed....all contain nothing that is un-Orthodox, or against Orthodox teaching.

I would also like to add, the Rosary is about Christ. Look at the mysteries, the majority are about Christ, only two are about Mary, only two. The Rosary is simply meditating on Christ through the intercession of Mary.

I suggest you read "Rosary: Mysteries, Meditations, and the Telling of the Beads" by Kevin Orlin Johnson, Ph.D. It is by far the best book I have come accross on the subject!
Logged

"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,298


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2004, 12:23:05 AM »

In addition to reiterating Ben's post, I would say that, regarding the Jesus Prayer, it is my understanding that you're not supposed to be meditating on anything while saying it (this might be the reason some Orthodox have a problem with the Rosary).    I used to say the Rosary more or less regularly, but got out of that habit, and think every so often about taking it up again.  

RC's pray the Rosary, and satisfy their Marian devotional needs that way.  Are there such regular daily Marian devotional practices among Orthodox Christians?
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Ben
Unabashedly Pro-Life
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,260



« Reply #3 on: May 01, 2004, 12:28:06 AM »

I know an Orthodox Christian (He is a convert from Roman Catholicism) who sings the akathist hym, daily. He says it takes the place of his Rosary.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2004, 12:30:26 AM by Ben » Logged

"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,298


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #4 on: May 01, 2004, 12:38:42 AM »

Yeah, I figured some might do that.  I guess my thing with that is this: at least with the Rosary, even if the prayers are the same, the meditations are on a cycle, so you don't say the same ones every day, but with the Akathist Hymn, the prayer is the same daily.  Does that not cause a problem?  I know it is a problem for some RC's, even with the cycle of mysteries, just because of the set prayers.
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #5 on: May 01, 2004, 01:05:34 AM »

Some may just have a problem with boredom setting in.

And you're right about the Orthodox not wanting anything meditated on during the Jesus Prayer; I had forgotten about that.

That brings me back to the original thought, though; if repetetive prayer serves to draw us into union with the one to whom we pray, what does the repetitious prayer to Mary facilitate?  Union with Christ through Mary?  If so, why so many prayers TO Mary with so few TO Christ?
Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
Ben
Unabashedly Pro-Life
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,260



« Reply #6 on: May 01, 2004, 01:15:49 AM »

Pedro,

The Hail Mary is a wonderful prayer asking Mary to pray for us. St. Thomas Aquinas wrote a great deal on the Hail Mary, it is a beautiful pray full of deep meaning and power.

Pedro, God came to us through Mary, so we go to God, through Mary. This is very simple and logical. I understand that one may be concerned with too much about Mary. But remember she was a huge part of our Lord's life, and remember the role of Mary is to lead us to Christ, and this is also the purpose of the Rosary.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2004, 01:17:51 AM by Ben » Logged

"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint
Brendan03
High Elder
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 544



« Reply #7 on: May 01, 2004, 08:01:57 AM »

I think that it is just a difference in tradition.  In Orthodoxy we are advised to not pray with specific images in mind, but to reach out for that imageless place within our mind where we meet God.  So we don't have prayers that invite us to meditate on this or that event, per se.  Having said that, the rosary appears to be a perfectly legitimate form of Western devotion, and there is nothing "wrong" with it.  In terms of Orthodox marian devotions, in addition to the Akathist or the Paraklesis, in the standard normal Orthodox daily prayer rules there are a lot of Marian prayers, she comes up quite a bit in our normal prayer rule.  Also in our liturgy there are many explicit prayers to the Theotokos, probably more than in the current version of the Latin rite, so we get our Marian devotion in other ways, perhaps more integrated into the more commonly used prayers, in addition to the specific devotions of the Akathist and Paraklesis.
Logged

B
JoeZollars
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,278

Pray for me an unworthy sinner


WWW
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2004, 09:50:52 AM »

The Rosary existed in early forms in the pre-schism west, being primarily a Anglo-Celtic invention and serving as the layman's psalter.  There are several early forms of the rosary that were not as formalized as today's version (the Mysteries didn't come about at all until [RC] St. Dominic added tehm over 100 years after the Schism), and some prayers were not added until as late as 1917.

That history lesson aside, I don't see a problem using it in one's *private* devotional life as an Orthodox Christian as long as it is used in addition to and not instead of the morning and evening prayers etc.  Personally I would replace the "Hail Mary" with teh "Rejoice o Virgin Theotokos" and also change the glory be ending from "as it was..." to "both now and...."   I would not say the "Mi Iesu"/"Oh my Jesus" as it is most definitly of unorthodox origen (being a Fatima practice) and is not even universally practiced in the RCC.   I would also change the fourth glorius mystery from the "Assumption of the Virgen Mary" to Dormition of the Theotokos.  I would also use the Nicene Creed instead of the Apostles Creed.  Some of those changes are just my personal taste.  I think Serge once had a page with a byzantinized form of the Rosary on it.  

Joe Zollars
Logged

These posts no longer represent my beliefs and I in no way endorse their contents.
JoeZollars
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,278

Pray for me an unworthy sinner


WWW
« Reply #9 on: May 01, 2004, 09:51:34 AM »

Mor, do the OO's have any popular daily devotions to the Theotokos similar to those of the Orthodox?

Joe Zollars
Logged

These posts no longer represent my beliefs and I in no way endorse their contents.
JoeZollars
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,278

Pray for me an unworthy sinner


WWW
« Reply #10 on: May 01, 2004, 10:07:28 AM »

Found the page on Serge's old site: an Orthodox way of praying the Rosary

Also here is an article by Dr. Alexander Roman on the history of prayerbeads in the East and West
Logged

These posts no longer represent my beliefs and I in no way endorse their contents.
The young fogey
Moderated
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Posts: 2,646


I'm an alpaca, actually


WWW
« Reply #11 on: May 01, 2004, 10:26:52 AM »

Bryan Peter,

To add to the good commentary already here:

I don't think a rite that says things such as 'Most holy Mother of God, save us', 'Through the Mother of God, have mercy upon us', 'Through the prayers of the Mother of God, O Saviour, save us' and '... through thee may we be delivered from all adversity for thou art the salvation of the Christian race' can be described fairly as less Marian than the Roman Rite! (The private post-Communion thanksgiving prayers in the Byzantine Rite call her a mediatrix, too.)

All these prayers are sound but besides being fun for scaring Protestants do need a lot of 'splaining to make them sound for Christians. There is ultimately one Mediator (in Himself) between God and man, God Himself, Jesus the Christ, but Jesus saves, Mary prays. Mary is a mediatrix by association with Christ, as is anybody who prays for somebody else, which even Protestants ask their brethren to do.

As for the Jesus Prayer, I don't know any born Orthodox layfolk who do it. Among the Russians the prayer rope (or beads) is monastic, actually part of the monastic habit when worn on one's left wrist (only monks and nuns should do that). A friend, now departed, whose father was a 1917-era exiled Russian priest told me his father never owned a prayer rope or beads.

Quote
I would also change the fourth glorius mystery from the "Assumption of the Virgin Mary" to Dormition of the Theotokos.

Liturgically it is the Dormition/Falling Asleep in the Byzantine calendar, however... Perhaps some deny Our Lady's bodily assumption simply because Pope Pius XII proclaimed it RC doctrine in 1950 - a lame attempt to spite Rome because as Kallistos (Ware) iterates in The Orthodox Church, Eastern Orthodox do believe in her assumption. And AFAIK pre-1950 no-one in that communion denied it. In fact the Eastern legend about it, parallelling the resurrection of Christ, is more elaborate than the Pope's definition. And the belief came from the Christian East to the West.
Logged

Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #12 on: May 01, 2004, 10:35:39 AM »

I appreciate the input from everyone!

Right, obviously, Marian devotion didn't "scare me off" from converting to Orthodoxy...it just seemed so much more the "focus" in the Rosary.

You'd think I'd remember from living so close to *ST SERAPHIM* Cathedral that said saint himself used and preached the use of the rosary!

Live 'n' learn....
Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
JoeZollars
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,278

Pray for me an unworthy sinner


WWW
« Reply #13 on: May 01, 2004, 01:06:49 PM »

Serge, it was not to deny the bodily assumption that I suggested that change, but rather so that such a devotion would be in conjunction with the liturgical cycle of the church.  A devotion should compliment the rite.

Joe Zollars
Logged

These posts no longer represent my beliefs and I in no way endorse their contents.
Anastasios
Webdespota
Administrator
Merarches
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Greek Old Calendarist
Posts: 10,444


Metropolitan Chrysostomos of Florina

anastasios0513
WWW
« Reply #14 on: May 01, 2004, 01:47:43 PM »

Serge describes the situation among Russians accurately but I would like to point out that I have seen many ethnic Greeks with prayer ropes (albeit smaller and oftentimes without the cross) on their left wrist.  I think part of the confusion arises from a Russian culture heavily influenced by Western piety via the Ukrainians (not bad, just different) coming into contact with a Greek cultural devotional system based solely on Orthodox but having developed much in isolation, being forced to encounter one another in America.  Confusion is bound to arise.

anastasios
Logged

Please Buy My Book!

Disclaimer: Past posts reflect stages of my life before my baptism may not be accurate expositions of Orthodo
David
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA (Diocese of the South)
Posts: 1,952


Retired GM


WWW
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2004, 02:06:57 PM »


You'd think I'd remember from living so close to *ST SERAPHIM* Cathedral that said saint himself used and preached the use of the rosary!

Live 'n' learn....

And a beautiful cathedral it is, although the last time I was there, it was being completed so I didn't get to see any of the iconography or the finished floor for that matter! Smiley
Logged

"When looking at faults, use a mirror, not a telescope."
-Yazid Ibrahim
Orthodoc
Supporter & Defender Of Orthodoxy
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 2,526

Those who ignore history tend to repeat it.


« Reply #16 on: May 01, 2004, 02:12:04 PM »

http://www.iarelative.com/chotki.htm

Orthodox Chotki -



Greek and Russian/Eastern Orthodox also use prayer counters, usually a knotted rope, called a prayer rope. Greek Orthodox prayer ropes are of 33, 50 or 100 knots. The Rosary prayed by the Eastern Orthodox is called the Choki. Chotki is the Russian word for a prayer rope. The greek word is Komboschini, and the Serbian word is Broyanitasa. This rosary is a string of 33, 100, or 300 beads on a string of knots made of wool, satin, or nylon cord. They are not divided into decades. In the russian orthdox tradition, chotkis are ALWAYS divided by the tens, regardless of the size of the chotki. On each bead or knot is prayed the following: 'Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God, have mercy on me, a sinner.' The modern Chotki is slightly different: 'Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner,' derived from the Gospel story of the Pharisee and the tax collector. The chotki in the russian tradition is not used for praying the Prayer, but for counting prostrations. Nine jesus prayers and one big prostrarion, 9 more prostrations and one big prostrations and so on, until the round is finished. This is the basic russian use of the chotki, noting of course, every spiritual father gives different prayer rules.The Chotki has been used as a silent "breath prayer," with "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of the Living God" prayed on inhalation and " have mercy on me, a sinner" prayed on exhalation.

With thanks to Nikolaj (Russian Orthodox Church in Denmark)

=======

[You'd think I'd remember from living so close to *ST SERAPHIM* Cathedral that said saint himself used and preached the use of the rosary!]

Chances are St Seraphim used the Chotki rahter than the western style Rosary and set prayers it entails.  The Chotki is the forerunner of the RC Rosary.

Orthodoc


Orthodoc
 
Logged

Oh Lord, Save thy people and bless thine inheritance.
Grant victory to the Orthodox Christians over their adversaries.
And by virtue of thy Cross preserve thy habitation.
Ben
Unabashedly Pro-Life
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,260



« Reply #17 on: May 01, 2004, 04:43:58 PM »

I don't know of this link has already been posted, but it may be of help:

http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/articles/alex_roman/prayerrope.htm

« Last Edit: May 01, 2004, 04:44:50 PM by Ben » Logged

"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint
Mor Ephrem
"Mor is right, you are wrong."
Section Moderator
Hoplitarches
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 16,298


In solidarity with Iraqi and Syrian Nazarenes


WWW
« Reply #18 on: May 01, 2004, 11:34:13 PM »

Mor, do the OO's have any popular daily devotions to the Theotokos similar to those of the Orthodox?

Joe Zollars

I can only speak for my tradition, but I imagine the same could be said of the others.  We have our prayers and hymns to her in the prayer books; that's about it.  On special feast days, special offices may be used in the course of or outside the Liturgy.
Logged

Apolytikion, Tone 1, by Antonis

An eloquent crafter of divine posts
And an inheritor of the line of the Baptist
A righteous son of India
And a new apostle to the internet
O Holy Mor Ephrem,
Intercede for us, that our forum may be saved.


"Mor is a jerk." - kelly
Seraphim Reeves
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 450



WWW
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2004, 01:04:54 PM »

In principle, I don't see anything wrong with a set of prayers to the Theotokos, with some "Our Fathers" and "Glorias" thrown in.  However, it should be kept in mind this prayer was meant as a substitute for the Psalter, to be remembered by illiterates who did not have access to the Scriptures on a regular basis, or written/printed prayer rules.  Thus, ideally, the Psalter would have pride of place.

One thing which seems more problematic, is the style of meditation used with the RC Rosary.  It's the same problem Orthodoxy would have with "Ignatian spirituality" and RC piety in general which encourages the use of the imagination.  From my own reading, this is precisely the opposite of what Orthodox spiritual fathers have always advised.  If anything, they claimed the imagination in prayer can be quite dangerous, becoming a tool for deception.

Seraphim
Logged

Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2004, 03:11:23 PM »

Chances are St Seraphim used the Chotki rahter than the western style Rosary and set prayers it entails.  The Chotki is the forerunner of the RC Rosary.

Actually, here's a link that showed him promoting the Marian Rosary:

http://www.westernorthodox.com/rosary

Quote
From my own reading, this is precisely the opposite of what Orthodox spiritual fathers have always advised.  If anything, they claimed the imagination in prayer can be quite dangerous, becoming a tool for deception.

Where could I read up on this, Seraphim?  If anyone else has comments on imagery within prayer from the eastern fathers, feel free to speak up.
Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
Seraphim Reeves
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 450



WWW
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2004, 03:31:12 PM »

Pedro,

Peter actually posted an article which deals with the issue of "imagination".

Why Orthodoxy is the True Faith

Seraphim
Logged

Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2004, 10:05:18 AM »

Quote
St. Gregory the Sinaite (14th century) reminds: "Never accept things when you see something sensual or spiritual, inside or
outside, even if it has an image of Christ or an angel or a certain saint.  The one who accepts it easily gets seduced. God does not resent one being attentive to himself, if one fearing to get seduced does not accept what He gives, but rather praises him as a wise one" (St. Gregory the
Sinaite. Hesyhast instruction // same. - p.224).

Would this apply, then, to envisioning icons of the mysteries (or icons related thereto) when praying?  The whole point of icons, if I took my catechism correctly, was that now there is a proper way to depict sacred events/people.

Pedro
Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
Father Peter
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: British Orthodox Church within the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchate
Posts: 2,630



WWW
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2004, 12:23:39 PM »

I remember watching Metropolitan Anthony of Sourozh of blessed memory on TV in the UK speaking about prayer with icons.

IIRC he said that we consider the representation on the icon, of a saint or events associated with some saint, and then we close our eyes and pray. I am sure he was not speaking dogmatically about closing eyes or anything but he seemed to be teaching that there comes a point when considering the icon is no longer appropriate since we should offer our prayer to the one depicted on the icon.

Thus, I guess, the use of visual stimuli and imagination are appropriate in the realm of mental consideration but we go beyond the imagination in prayer and should not allow the fruit of our imagination to dominate our approach to Christ and the saints.

The icon of the Nativity, for instance, brings to mind many of the events associated with the birth of our Lord, God and Saviour Jesus Christ but in prayer we should not be limited by what we find brought to mind - prayer is not limited to mental processes after all. Nor should we strive to imagine the events of the Nativity as if that made our prayer more real. These have some value for our mental faculties.

But if prayer is standing before God with the mind in the heart then there is no need, at that time, for mental processes. It is a time to be still and silent.

It surely would be like watching the film 'The Passion' and then confusing what we see there with the reality of our inner encounter with God. 'The Passion' may or may not assist our knowing about some aspect of what our Lord went through, but it can barely begin to comprehend it and the danger is that we think it does, whereas the great saints teach us that true knowledge of God is not mental but noetical, mediated directly by the encounter with God within.

Would that I had begun to pray at all.

Pray for this sinner

Peter Theodore
Logged

Lord have mercy upon me a sinner
http://www.orthodoxmedway.org

My blog - http://anorthodoxpriest.blogspot.co.uk

The poster formerly known as peterfarrington
galenos
Newbie
*
Offline Offline

Posts: 1


OC.net


« Reply #24 on: May 14, 2004, 03:07:58 PM »

Hello, I dont have a problem with the prayers of the rosary but the manner by which it is advanced, thru RC "miracles" which I find suspect, For example with all the examples of children going into trance "states" I would wonder where these messages are coming from, especially when they pruport to support the equality of all religions as the visions at Medjegorie do, WE must beware,,
Logged

NULL
Schultz
Christian. Guitarist. Zymurgist. Librarian.
Taxiarches
**********
Online Online

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 6,467


Scion of the McKeesport Becks.


WWW
« Reply #25 on: May 14, 2004, 03:15:24 PM »

I would wonder where these messages are coming from, especially when they pruport to support the equality of all religions as the visions at Medjegorie do, WE must beware,,

Good point, and precisely why the Catholic Church has not endorsed Medjegorie.  The local bishop, in fact, has condemned it, I believe.
Logged

"Hearing a nun's confession is like being stoned to death with popcorn." --Abp. Fulton Sheen
Fr. David
The Poster Formerly Known as "Pedro"
Archon
********
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: OCA, Diocese of the South
Posts: 2,828



WWW
« Reply #26 on: May 14, 2004, 04:20:50 PM »

Right you are, Schultz...though we shouldn't just condemn the rosary (not that you were, galenos) simply because demonic apparitions promote it.  Anything can be used for the evil one.
Logged

Priest in the Orthodox Church in America - ordained on March 18, 2012

Oh Taste and See (my defunct blog)

From Protestant to Orthodox (my conversion story)
Ben
Unabashedly Pro-Life
OC.net guru
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 1,260



« Reply #27 on: May 15, 2004, 06:17:34 AM »

Right you are, Schultz...though we shouldn't just condemn the rosary (not that you were, galenos) simply because demonic apparitions promote it.  Anything can be used for the evil one.

Which apparitions are you refering to as demonic?
Logged

"I prefer to be accused unjustly, for then I have nothing to reproach myself with, and joyfully offer this to the good Lord. Then I humble myself at the thought that I am indeed capable of doing the thing of which I have been accused. " - Saint
icxn
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 251


« Reply #28 on: May 15, 2004, 01:04:18 PM »

Not to accept some temptation through one sense or another is easily managed; but it is very difficult to control the imagination and memory of it, once it is accepted. For example, to see or not to see some face, or to look at it with passion or without passion, is not very difficult and does not need much effort; but after you have seen it and looked at it with passion, to banish from your memory the image of this face is already not easy, but demands much effort and no small inner struggle. And the enemy can play with your soul as with a ball, tossing your attention from one memory to another, stirring up desires and passions beneath them, and so keeping you always in a passionate state. Therefore I say to you: stay awake and, above all, watch imagination and memory. - Lorenzo Scupoli (Unseen Warfare: Chapter 26)

In diligent exercise of mystical contemplation, leave behind the senses and the operations of the intellect, and all things sensible and intellectual, and all things in the world of being and non-being, that you may arise by unknowing towards the union, as far as is attainable, with Him who transcends all being and all knowledge. For by the unceasing and absolute renunciation of yourself and of all things you may be borne on high, through pure and entire self-abnegation, into the superessential Radiance of the Divine Darkness. - Dionysius the Areopagite in Mystical Theology, Chapter 1

The Apostle has told us to pray uninterruptedly, without anger or passionate thoughts. And this is excellent advice, for every thought which takes the mind away from God is not merely from the devil but is the devil himself." - St. John Chrysostom.

Try to make your intellect deaf and dumb during prayer, you will then be able to pray. - Evagrios the Solitary, "On Prayer," in the Philokalia

Do not admit any sensory phantasies during prayer, lest you become subject to derangement. - St. John Climacus, "The Ladder of Divine Ascent"

If the practice of prayer is to proceed successfully, it is always essential at the outset to lay everything else aside, so that the heart is completely free of distraction. Nothing should obtrude on the mind: neither face, nor activity, nor object. At such a time all is to be driven out." - Bishop Theophan the Recluse

If, then, you wish to behold and commune with Him who is beyond sense-perception and beyond concept, you must free yourself from every impassioned thought. - Evagrios the Solitary, "On Prayer," in the Philokalia

(Source: http://www.orthodox.net/gleanings/prayer.html)

icxn
Logged
iustinos
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox
Jurisdiction: GOA
Posts: 57

OC.net


« Reply #29 on: May 26, 2004, 03:07:04 AM »

Hi All,

I'm new here.  Just thought I'd throw my two cents in.  As regards repetitive prayers to the Theotokos, the Athonite fathers, and my spiritual father, include as part of their rule a certain number of "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!" in addition to Jesus Prayers.  So to answer that part of the question, certainly Orthodox do indeed pray to the Mother of God daily, often in repetitious form.

Justin
« Last Edit: May 26, 2004, 03:08:18 AM by iustinos » Logged
4Truth
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 87



« Reply #30 on: June 23, 2004, 10:30:20 PM »

Many good/useful posts in this thread!

As noted by others, Orthodox strive to avoid any kind of focus on images during prayer.  (Of course we may look at the icons!  Smiley )  So meditating on "the stations", or on themes from the life of Christ or from the life of the Theotokos, as I understand it is done while praying a rosary, just doesn't "fit" our ways.  

Also observed (correctly) is that the "base prayers" used for a rosary are consonant with Orthodox beliefs.  We have our own "version" of what Catholics call the "Hail Mary" :

** Rejoice O Mother of God and maiden!
** Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
** Blessed art thou among women,
** and blessed is the fruit of thy womb,
** for thou hast given birth to the Saviour of our souls!

I have (with priest's blessing) sometimes prayed thus with my prayer rope, and know other Orthodox Christians who also do.  Similarly, we can pray the "Most Holy Theotokos, save us!" with our prayer ropes (as someone noted earlier).  Certainly, the norm is to pray the Jesus prayer.  

Apart from the conscious use of the imagination between "decades", I don't (personally) detect anything "wrong" from the Orthodox point of view.  (If I've missed something, someone Orthodox please cue me in!)  

Many years ago, I lived in an apartment near a Roman Catholic woman who asked me if I would join her every day in praying a rosary.  This was her valiant struggle against alcoholism.  My priest readily gave me his blessing to join her, so long as I omitted what needed to be omitted.  

4Truth
Logged
Thomas
Section Moderator
Archon
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Eastern Orthodox
Jurisdiction: Antiochian
Posts: 2,788



« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2004, 11:14:56 AM »

Mor Ephram worte earlier "but with the Akathist Hymn, the prayer is the same daily.  Does that not cause a problem?  "

One should note that there are many Akathists that may be done---one could actually easily do a different Akathist of the Virgin Mary 7 days a week and still have additional ones available for use. There is no need for the Akathist to become stagnant or vainly repetitious.  These Akathist are usually tied to particular Icons or Miracles relating to the Theotokos and may be tied to  her as "the healer of cancer", "the everlasting Cup" (alcoholism), Finder of the lost sheep (those who have left the church), etc.

So as one may see there are many opportunities to draw closer to the Mother of God.  The Akathist is perhaps one of the simplest prayer services that one can do in their home (this is perhaps why it is so popular among the Russians)---it requires no additional books, texts, or seasonal changes. I find that my young primary school age grandchildren enjoy  praying it with me and easily adapt to it because of its repition of responses or verses.

In Christ,
Thomas
Logged

Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas
Rustaveli
Constant In Opal... Ultramarine
Member
***
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Christian
Jurisdiction: Orthodox Eastern Church
Posts: 126


Saint Shota Rustaveli


« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2004, 11:34:16 AM »

Check out:

www.virtualrosary.org

Very interesting site; it includes free, downloadable programs containing [several sets of] Scripturally-based meditations, as well as a way to post prayer requests.

« Last Edit: June 24, 2004, 04:27:59 PM by Rustaveli » Logged
Etienne
Sr. Member
****
Offline Offline

Posts: 150

OC.net


« Reply #33 on: July 18, 2004, 01:25:06 PM »

Serge, if I recall accurately it was not just those outside the Roman faith who had some reservations about a 'dogma' of the Assumption. Those with reservation included, among others, French catholic bishops.

There is a difference between the Orthodox concept of the Falling Asleep or Dormition of the Theotokos and the Roman dogma of the Assumption. This was brought home to me when I went to look around one catholic church and found a chapel with a pair of feet disappearing into the ceiling. Puzzled, I was told this chapel was dedicated to the Assumption. I reflected on the Orthodox icons of the Dormition, and still remained somewhat non-plussed by the catholic understanding.

I think the two are so different in so many ways, that it is misleading to try and fit them together - as one might by using the pieces of one puzzle to complete another.
Logged

It is afterwards that events are best understood
JoeS
(aka StMarkEofE)
Site Supporter
OC.net guru
*****
Offline Offline

Faith: Orthodox Catholic
Jurisdiction: OCA
Posts: 1,122


Global Warming Enthusiast.


« Reply #34 on: July 18, 2004, 04:07:23 PM »

It probably takes about the same amount of time to say both. I add the Hail Mary to my morning and evening prayers.  I think its a beautiful prayer even when I was RC.

JoeS   Cool

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I know an Orthodox Christian (He is a convert from Roman Catholicism) who sings the akathist hym, daily. He says it takes the place of his Rosary.
Logged
CatholicEagle
Banned
Elder
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 255


HH St.Pius X, Pope of Rome, Ecumenical Pontiff


« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2004, 09:44:00 PM »

Serge, if I recall accurately it was not just those outside the Roman faith who had some reservations about a 'dogma' of the Assumption. Those with reservation included, among others, French catholic bishops.

There is a difference between the Orthodox concept of the Falling Asleep or Dormition of the Theotokos and the Roman dogma of the Assumption. This was brought home to me when I went to look around one catholic church and found a chapel with a pair of feet disappearing into the ceiling. Puzzled, I was told this chapel was dedicated to the Assumption. I reflected on the Orthodox icons of the Dormition, and still remained somewhat non-plussed by the catholic understanding.

I think the two are so different in so many ways, that it is misleading to try and fit them together - as one might by using the pieces of one puzzle to complete another.

Etienne,
The French Roman Catholic bishops were some of the most liberal[and still are] at the time of the 1950's. France already had empty churches in the 1930's while the rest of the Catholic world was expanding. Liberalism kills
Logged
catholickid
Jr. Member
**
Offline Offline

Posts: 40

Totus Tuus Maria


« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2005, 12:53:19 PM »

I am a Loving Slave of Mary Immaculate. I recomend everyone read the works of St. Louis Marie De Monfort as well as Bishop Sheen's The World's First Love"

I love the rosary. I am not alone.

“Say the Rosary every day, to obtain peace for the world.” -Our Lady of Fatima, 1917

“Those who say the Rosary daily and wear the Brown Scapular and who do a little more will go straight to Heaven.” -St. Alphonsus Liquori

“The greatest method of praying is to pray the Rosary.” -St. Francis of Assisi

“If there were one million families praying the Rosary every day, the entire world would be saved.” -Pope St. Pius X

“There is no surer means of calling down God’s blessing upon the family than the daily recitation of the Rosary.” -Pope Pius XII

“The Rosary is a school for learning true Christian perfection.” -Pope John XXIII

“Among all the devotions approved by the Church none has been favored by so many miracles as the devotion of the Most Holy Rosary.” -Pope Pius IX

“If you say the Rosary faithfully until death, I assure you that, in spite of the gravity of your sins, you shall receive a never fading crown of glory. Even if you are on the brink of damnation, even if you have one foot in hell, even if you have sold your soul to the devil as sorcerers do who practice black magic, and even if you are a heretic as obstinate as a devil, sooner or later you will be converted and will amend your life and save your soul, if - and mark well what I say - if you say the Holy Rosary devoutly every day until death for the purpose of knowing the truth and obtaining contrition and pardon of your sins.” -St. Louis de Monfort

Pope John Paul II on the Rosary; September 29, 2002 at the noon blessing:
“The rosary is a way to contemplate the face of Christ through the eyes of Mary. Therefore, it is a prayer rooted in the Gospel, and it remains in full harmony with the inspiration of the Second Vatican Council.”

“How much peace would be assured in family relations, if the recital of the Holy Rosary in the family were adopted again!”

TOTUS TUUS MARIA!
Logged
Jonas Suender
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 111


« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2007, 10:33:20 AM »

As noted by others, Orthodox strive to avoid any kind of focus on images during prayer.  (Of course we may look at the icons!  Smiley )  So meditating on "the stations", or on themes from the life of Christ or from the life of the Theotokos, as I understand it is done while praying a rosary, just doesn't "fit" our ways.  


Interesting. 

I am not Orthodox, but I am a Catholic who is looking at Orthodoxy and who is considering joining it.  Here is my view (for whatever it is worth) on praying the rosary. 

The base prayers are really good.  In the Hail Mary prayer, I am both praising God by praising her, and I am asking the Theotokos to pray with me.  Thereby I commune (silently) with Christ:  because He said "Wherever two or more are gathered in my name, I am there present." 

As for the mysteries, I no longer try to force myself to think about them.  Instead, after being exposed to the Orthodox view on prayer, I try to keep myself still and silent inside.  Announcing the mysteries thereby becomes like glancing at an icon during prayer.  I glance at it to put myself in the presence of God and His holy ones; and then I close my eyes and pray.  Likewise with the rosary, I mention the mystery and think on it a moment; but then I let my mind go silent and pray.

For me, both icons and the rosary are cataphatic tools that lead me to apophatic silence and stillness and prayer.

At least, on a good day.   Wink


Logged
Jonas Suender
Member
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 111


« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2007, 10:43:47 AM »

I am a Loving Slave of Mary Immaculate.  [ . . . ]  TOTUS TUUS MARIA!

This is a perfect example of what turns me off to the more extreme forms of Catholic devotion to Mary.  It also makes me interested in the Orthodox form of devotion to her.  That is because this kind of sentiment seems to come close to making Mary into some kind of subsitute for the Holy Spirit or a fourth person of the Trinity.  Instead, I think Mary is the Theotokos, and thus she is our spiritual mother too, and she is awesomely powerful in her motherly intercession and care for our holiness.  I think she is worthy of great veneration (dulia) and love.
Logged
Tags: rosary chotki prayer rope 
Pages: 1   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2013, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.124 seconds with 66 queries.