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Author Topic: Jesus Christ = Roman Invention?  (Read 1768 times) Average Rating: 0
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Oblias
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« on: January 23, 2011, 04:25:11 AM »

Whoever Jesus really was , the Jesus Christ of so called New Testament is a Roman invention created long after the real Jesus if he really existed was nailed on a cross and died .

Long before there was Jesus Christ and Christianity there was the Egyptian / Greek god known as Serapis and the Christians  who were erased and turned into Paul's Christians .

I would advice you to heed the words of Emporer Hadrianus after he returned from his travels around the Roman Empire ...

 From Hadrian Augustus to Servianus the consul, greeting. The land of Egypt, the praises of which you have been recounting to me, my dear Servianus, I have found to be wholly light-minded, unstable, and blown about by every breath of rumour. There those who worship Serapis are, in fact, Christians, and those who call themselves bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis. There is no chief of the Jewish synagogue, no Samaritan, no Christian presbyter, who is not an astrologer, a soothsayer, or an anointer. Even the Patriarch himself, when he comes to Egypt, is forced by some to worship Serapis, by others to worship Christ. They are a folk most seditious, most deceitful, most given to injury; but their city is prosperous, rich, and fruitful, and in it no one is idle. Some are blowers of glass, others makers of paper, all are at least weavers of linen or seem to belong to one craft or another; the lame have their occupations, the eunuchs have theirs, the blind have theirs, and not even those whose hands are crippled are idle. Their only god is money, and this the Christians, the Jews, and, in fact, all nations adore. And would that this city had a better character, for indeed it is worthy by reason of its richness and by reason of its size to hold the chief place in the whole of Egypt. I granted it every favour, I restored to it all its ancient rights and bestowed on it new ones besides, so that the people gave thanks to me while I was present among them. Then, no sooner had I departed thence than they said many things against my son Verus, and what they said about Antinous I believe you have learned. I can only wish for them that they may live on their own chickens, which they breed in a fashion I am ashamed to describe. I am sending you over some cups, changing colour and variegated, presented to me by the priest of a temple and now dedicated particularly to you and my sister. I should like you to use them at banquets on feast-days. Take good care, however, that our dear Africanus does not use them too freely."

BTW .. Eusebius relates in his History that Christians was the word the Rome used to describe the ignorant . Bet you never heard that in your church .



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« Last Edit: February 23, 2011, 10:14:41 AM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Theophilos78
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« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2011, 06:34:49 AM »

Whoever Jesus really was , the Jesus Christ of so called New Testament is a Roman invention created long after the real Jesus if he really existed was nailed on a cross and died .

Evidence for this claim?

Long before there was Jesus Christ and Christianity there was the Egyptian / Greek god known as Serapis and the Christians  who were erased and turned into Paul's Christians .

Evidence for this claim?

I would advice you to heed the words of Emporer Hadrianus after he returned from his travels around the Roman Empire ...

Logical fallacy of appealing to authority.

From Hadrian Augustus to Servianus the consul, greeting. The land of Egypt, the praises of which you have been recounting to me, my dear Servianus, I have found to be wholly light-minded, unstable, and blown about by every breath of rumour. There those who worship Serapis are, in fact, Christians, and those who call themselves bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis. There is no chief of the Jewish synagogue, no Samaritan, no Christian presbyter, who is not an astrologer, a soothsayer, or an anointer. Even the Patriarch himself, when he comes to Egypt, is forced by some to worship Serapis, by others to worship Christ. They are a folk most seditious, most deceitful, most given to injury; but their city is prosperous, rich, and fruitful, and in it no one is idle. Some are blowers of glass, others makers of paper, all are at least weavers of linen or seem to belong to one craft or another; the lame have their occupations, the eunuchs have theirs, the blind have theirs, and not even those whose hands are crippled are idle. Their only god is money, and this the Christians, the Jews, and, in fact, all nations adore. And would that this city had a better character, for indeed it is worthy by reason of its richness and by reason of its size to hold the chief place in the whole of Egypt. I granted it every favour, I restored to it all its ancient rights and bestowed on it new ones besides, so that the people gave thanks to me while I was present among them. Then, no sooner had I departed thence than they said many things against my son Verus, and what they said about Antinous I believe you have learned. I can only wish for them that they may live on their own chickens, which they breed in a fashion I am ashamed to describe. I am sending you over some cups, changing colour and variegated, presented to me by the priest of a temple and now dedicated particularly to you and my sister. I should like you to use them at banquets on feast-days. Take good care, however, that our dear Africanus does not use them too freely."

The emperor committed the logical fallacies of Ad Hominem and Poisoning the well.

BTW .. Eusebius relates in his History that Christians was the word the Rome used to describe the ignorant . Bet you never heard that in your church .

Reference please?

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« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2011, 10:54:12 AM »

I agree, do you have any references or citations for the claims you make?
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PeterTheAleut
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« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2011, 11:19:28 AM »

I would advice you to heed the words of Emporer Hadrianus after he returned from his travels around the Roman Empire ...

Logical fallacy of appealing to authority.

From Hadrian Augustus to Servianus the consul, greeting. The land of Egypt, the praises of which you have been recounting to me, my dear Servianus, I have found to be wholly light-minded, unstable, and blown about by every breath of rumour. There those who worship Serapis are, in fact, Christians, and those who call themselves bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis. There is no chief of the Jewish synagogue, no Samaritan, no Christian presbyter, who is not an astrologer, a soothsayer, or an anointer. Even the Patriarch himself, when he comes to Egypt, is forced by some to worship Serapis, by others to worship Christ. They are a folk most seditious, most deceitful, most given to injury; but their city is prosperous, rich, and fruitful, and in it no one is idle. Some are blowers of glass, others makers of paper, all are at least weavers of linen or seem to belong to one craft or another; the lame have their occupations, the eunuchs have theirs, the blind have theirs, and not even those whose hands are crippled are idle. Their only god is money, and this the Christians, the Jews, and, in fact, all nations adore. And would that this city had a better character, for indeed it is worthy by reason of its richness and by reason of its size to hold the chief place in the whole of Egypt. I granted it every favour, I restored to it all its ancient rights and bestowed on it new ones besides, so that the people gave thanks to me while I was present among them. Then, no sooner had I departed thence than they said many things against my son Verus, and what they said about Antinous I believe you have learned. I can only wish for them that they may live on their own chickens, which they breed in a fashion I am ashamed to describe. I am sending you over some cups, changing colour and variegated, presented to me by the priest of a temple and now dedicated particularly to you and my sister. I should like you to use them at banquets on feast-days. Take good care, however, that our dear Africanus does not use them too freely."

The emperor committed the logical fallacies of Ad Hominem and Poisoning the well.
I might suggest instead the alternative that Oblias took this letter out of context to make it look like a defamation of the Christian faithful. FWIW, Stephan Huller addresses this on his blog: http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/2009/09/letter-of-hadrian-to-servianus.html

A much fuller treatment of the letter, apparently from a document known as the Historia Augusta (via Huller's blog):
Quote
Saturninus was a Gaul by birth, one of a nation that is ever most restless and always desirous of creating either an emperor or an empire. To this man, above all the other generals, because it seemed certain that he was truly the greatest, Aurelian had given the command of the Eastern frontier, wisely charging him never to visit Egypt. For, as we see, this far-sighted man was well acquainted with the Gallic character and feared that if Saturninus visited this turbulent land he might be drawn by association with the inhabitants to a course toward which he was by nature inclined. For the Egyptians, as you know well enough, are puffed up, madmen, boastful, doers of injury, and, in fact, liars and without restraint, always craving something new, even in their popular songs, writers of verse, makers of epigrams, astrologers, soothsayers, quacksalvers. Among them, indeed, are Christians and Samaritans and those who are always ill-pleased by the present, though enjoying unbounded liberty. But, lest any Egyptian be angry with me, thinking that what I have set forth in writing is solely my own, I will cite one of Hadrian's letters, taken from the works of his freedman Phlegon, which fully reveals the character of the Egyptians.

From Hadrian Augustus to Servianus the consul, greeting. The land of Egypt, the praises of which you have been recounting to me, my dear Servianus, I have found to be wholly light-minded, unstable, and blown about by every breath of rumour. There those who worship Serapis are, in fact, Christians, and those who call themselves bishops of Christ are, in fact, devotees of Serapis. There is no chief of the Jewish synagogue, no Samaritan, no Christian presbyter, who is not an astrologer, a soothsayer, or an anointer. Even the Patriarch himself, when he comes to Egypt, is forced by some to worship Serapis, by others to worship Christ. They are a folk most seditious, most deceitful, most given to injury; but their city is prosperous, rich, and fruitful, and in it no one is idle. Some are blowers of glass, others makers of paper, all are at least weavers of linen or seem to belong to one craft or another; the lame have their occupations, the eunuchs have theirs, the blind have theirs, and not even those whose hands are crippled are idle. Their only god is money, and this the Christians, the Jews, and, in fact, all nations adore. And would that this city had a better character, for indeed it is worthy by reason of its richness and by reason of its size to hold the chief place in the whole of Egypt. I granted it every favour, I restored to it all its ancient rights and bestowed on it new ones besides, so that the people gave thanks to me while I was present among them. Then, no sooner had I departed thence than they said many things against my son Verus, and what they said about Antinous I believe you have learned. I can only wish for them that they may live on their own chickens, which they breed in a fashion I am ashamed to describe. I am sending you over some cups, changing colour and variegated, presented to me by the priest of a temple and now dedicated particularly to you and my sister. I should like you to use them at banquets on feast-days. Take good care, however, that our dear Africanus does not use them too freely."

So then, holding such an opinion about the Egyptians Aurelian forbade Saturninus to visit Egypt, showing a wisdom that was truly divine. For as soon as the Egyptians saw that one of high rank had arrived among them, they straightway shouted aloud, "Saturninus Augustus, may the gods keep you!" But he, like a prudent man, as one cannot deny, fled at once from the city of Alexandria and returned to Palestine. There, however, when he had begun to reflect that it would not be safe for him to remain a commoner, he took down a purple robe from a statue of Venus and, with the soldiers standing about, he arrayed himself in a woman's mantle and then received their adoration. I have often heard my grandfather tell that he was present when Saturninus thus received adoration; "He began to weep," he would tell us, "and to say, 'The commonwealth has lost an indispensable man, if I may say so without undue pride. I have certainly restored the provinces of Gaul, I have recovered Africa, seize by the Moors, I have brought peace to the provinces of Spain. But what does it all avail? For all these services go for nothing when once I have claimed imperial honours.' "

Then, when those who had clothed him with the purple began to hearten him, some to defend his life and others his power, he delivered the following speech: "My friends, you do not know what an evil thing it is to rule. A sword suspended by a hair hangs over your head, on all sides there are spears, on all sides arrows. You fear your very guards, you dread your very attendants. Your food brings you no pleasure, your journeys no honour, your wars do not meet with approval, your arms call forth no enthusiasm. Remember, moreover, that they find fault with a man of any age as ruler. Is he an old man? He is deemed incapable. Is he young? They go on to say that he is mad as well. Why should I now tell you that Probus is beloved by all? In wishing me to be a rival of his, to whom I would gladly yield place and whose general I desire to be, you do but force me to an unavoidable death. One solace I have for my death: I shall not be able to die alone." This speech, according to Marcus Salvidienus, was really his own, and, in fact, he was not unlettered, for he had even studied under a rhetorician in Africa and attended the schools of the teachers at Rome.

To me, this reads more like a stern caution against going to Egypt because of the all-around religious excesses there at that time in history than about any idea that Christians throughout the Empire were despicable pagans. (Yes, Oblias said something misleading--and I think intentionally so--when he said that Hadrian wrote his letter after his travels around the Empire. He would have been more truthful had he said that Hadrian wrote his letter after his travels to Egypt. But what is truth to one with an agenda?)
« Last Edit: January 23, 2011, 06:43:49 PM by PeterTheAleut » Logged
Justin Kissel
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« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2011, 11:33:56 AM »

BTW .. Eusebius relates in his History that Christians was the word the Rome used to describe the ignorant . Bet you never heard that in your church .

I admit that I don't recall having read that either time I went through the Ecclesiastical History of Eusebius... as others have asked, can you give a reference? Also, what relevance do you think it has exactly (ie. if it is true, so what?) Also, fwiw, I have had several people recommend to me that I read that work, and I have recommended it to others. In fact, I linked to it on the thread about Online Texts Concerning Church History.
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« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2011, 01:13:20 PM »

Christians was the word the Rome used to describe the ignorant . Bet you never heard that in your church .

It continues to this day. Why is it so surprising that "Christian" would be used by non-Christians as an insult, especially in times of persecution?
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And FWIW, these are our Fathers too, you know.

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« Reply #6 on: January 23, 2011, 05:27:57 PM »

The OP is a complete fiction that would be considered laughable by every reputable scholar of early Christianity.
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« Reply #7 on: January 25, 2011, 12:28:23 PM »

The OP is a complete fiction that would be considered laughable by every reputable scholar of early Christianity.
Agreed. We will never hear from this poster again, I have that feeling anyways.
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