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Author Topic: The Strong Delusion is extraterrestrial Designers are our gods  (Read 7885 times) Average Rating: 0
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« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2011, 11:48:13 AM »

Hallowed are the Ori!!!
Wait, doesn't Ba'al get a say in all this business?



After all, he's mentioned in the Bible.

LOL! If any Goa'uld would be jealous of the Ori it definitely would Ba'al! Cheesy

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« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2011, 11:51:20 AM »

Hallowed are the Ori!!!
Wait, doesn't Ba'al get a say in all this business?



After all, he's mentioned in the Bible.

There is a special place in hell for all of us who actually sat through all 10 seasons.

Lord have mercy!
Tongue Tongue Tongue Tongue Tongue Tongue

Where is Daniel Jackson when you need him?

I liked all 10 seasons, so there! Cheesy

Hallowed are the Ori!




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« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2011, 12:02:38 PM »

Isn't it also possible that God created life throughout the universe, and extraterrestrial aliens are just fellow sinners?

There are no extra terrestrial aliens, there are only angels, fallen and unfallen, and both use technology.


And you know this with such certainty, how? And no, you can't say "because the Bible tells me so" since that's the same argument human beings used to explain why other human beings were creatures of Satan as well.



Quote

The falling away comes first so that the Antichrist can rise, and he won't be representing former religions, such as Christianity, he is the  Christ of a new god, a god of forces, a new god unknown to mankind, and he will claim its power makes him God:


This is actually what Hal Lindsey has adopted in recent years. Don't you find it odd that ANY Orthodox Christian would agree with the guy who wrote The Late Great Planet Earth?

Besides, even if what you say IS true, I think most of us scifi fans are going to be safe since Stargate has prepared us for the day when the Goa'uld return via Ezekiel's wheel and try to enslave us by claiming to be gods! So I'm pretty confident when Apophis or the Ori come to trick us, at least us SG1 fans won't be deceived. Thank you Daniel Jackson! Smiley

Okay enough silliness, but I can't help it, you've brought out the scifi geek in me!


I actually do find your hypothesis fascinating, I mean I love all this kind of stuff, Chariots of the gods, and all those books. Very cool stuff. I don't think it's true, but I love talking about it. I even wrote a story about this stuff one time, back in my Protestant days, but I also think if there are aliens (and there probably are) it's un-Christian to just assume they are instruments of Satan; like I said, that's what Christians said about the Native people of the new world too, of course we now know better.

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« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2011, 12:22:45 PM »

Ok, do I need to be a jerk before anyone will answer a question of mine? I am seriously considering leaving this forum completely. I ask questions, and am completely ignored time and again. I realize that this thread is ridiculous, but I did have a real question...Why do I have to fight to have a real conversation? Would you all prefer if I called myself Swami? Would that ilicite more of a response? It seems likely that it would.
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« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2011, 12:41:02 PM »

Ok, do I need to be a jerk before anyone will answer a question of mine? I am seriously considering leaving this forum completely. I ask questions, and am completely ignored time and again. I realize that this thread is ridiculous, but I did have a real question...Why do I have to fight to have a real conversation? Would you all prefer if I called myself Swami? Would that ilicite more of a response? It seems likely that it would.

Every data point since the dawn of Usenet shows that such threats on internet discussions groups, boards, etc. is symptomatic of someone who never will leave.

Also, such comments usually are met by further ignoring.

YMMV.
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« Reply #50 on: January 25, 2011, 12:44:37 PM »

Every data point since the dawn of Usenet shows that such threats on internet discussions groups, boards, etc. is symptomatic of someone who never will leave.

Also, such comments usually are met by further ignoring.

YMMV.
Thanks for understanding. Maybe an answer to my question would be more useful?
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« Reply #51 on: January 25, 2011, 01:11:17 PM »

Quote
What Alfred is posting is not completely insane though. I would imagine that contact with technologically advanced extraterrestrials would lead to a general drop in religious adherence worldwide. I think it would be damaging to the Church. However, claiming that aliens actually will make contact for certain, and that this is prophesied in holy scripture, is where the posts start to sound insane.
I would agree. When we state that we know for sure that this will happen in this fashion, we are simply mistaken. I do agree that much of the UFO phenomenon is probably demonic. I have heard, and personally believe it as well, that in the end of days the Nephilim will return. Are there any patristic quotes about the Return of the Nephilim? Christ said that as were the days of Noah, so also will it be in the end.
Hello?
Ok, something witty/nerdy...lol/lmao/rofl/ laugh Grin Wink Smiley Tongue Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
Now, does anyone know of any patristic quotes that deal with the Nephilim returning?


This isn't the best forum for discussing patristics. Here's a thread over at Monachos.net about the Nephilim: http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?3591-Nephilim-(Genesis-6.4)-patristic-commentary-requested&highlight=nephilim

You might want to put your question there.
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« Reply #52 on: January 25, 2011, 01:21:55 PM »

Thanks for the kind reply. It's sad that I have to seek out another forum for help...
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« Reply #53 on: January 25, 2011, 01:26:04 PM »

Thanks for the kind reply. It's sad that I have to seek out another forum for help...

There is a thread here on the Nephilim: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=19063.0 (I came across it trying to search out an answer to your question).  However, as specifically applies to your question regarding a return of the Nephilim in the end times I have yet to find anything.
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« Reply #54 on: January 25, 2011, 01:31:06 PM »

Isn't it also possible that God created life throughout the universe, and extraterrestrial aliens are just fellow sinners?

There are no extra terrestrial aliens, there are only angels, fallen and unfallen, and both use technology.


And you know this with such certainty, how? And no, you can't say "because the Bible tells me so" since that's the same argument human beings used to explain why other human beings were creatures of Satan as well.



Quote

The falling away comes first so that the Antichrist can rise, and he won't be representing former religions, such as Christianity, he is the  Christ of a new god, a god of forces, a new god unknown to mankind, and he will claim its power makes him God:


This is actually what Hal Lindsey has adopted in recent years. Don't you find it odd that ANY Orthodox Christian would agree with the guy who wrote The Late Great Planet Earth?

Besides, even if what you say IS true, I think most of us scifi fans are going to be safe since Stargate has prepared us for the day when the Goa'uld return via Ezekiel's wheel and try to enslave us by claiming to be gods! So I'm pretty confident when Apophis or the Ori come to trick us, at least us SG1 fans won't be deceived. Thank you Daniel Jackson! Smiley

Okay enough silliness, but I can't help it, you've brought out the scifi geek in me!


I actually do find your hypothesis fascinating, I mean I love all this kind of stuff, Chariots of the gods, and all those books. Very cool stuff. I don't think it's true, but I love talking about it. I even wrote a story about this stuff one time, back in my Protestant days, but I also think if there are aliens (and there probably are) it's un-Christian to just assume they are instruments of Satan; like I said, that's what Christians said about the Native people of the new world too, of course we now know better.



Because my posts are moderated, Its hard to carry on a discussion.

My hypothesis is not bizarre...hopefully the following proves that...as you get towards the end, it discusses heaven and earth, the scriptural teaching about it, and the nature of angels.

I repeat, I do NOT believe ufo aliens exist...I believe fallen angels who will pretend to be ufo aliens, exist.

peace

Someone will say "this is Bizarre."

But should I accept the usual view in the commentaries, that the last week of the 70 weeks, occurs centuries later, is that less bizarre?

I can't agree with the commentaries on the seventy weeks, the plain reading is these are 70 contiguous weeks segments of which are characterized by unique events.

24 Seventy weeks are determined  (נֶחְתַּךְ   2852) upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Dan 9:24 KJV)


The 70 weeks are contiguous as these were "cut out" as a specific length of time, that is how they were "determined." They weren't "cut out" separately or in separate pieces.


 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: (Dan 9:26 KJV)

AFTER the 62 weeks, which is after the 7 = 70 weeks.

"And After", conjunctive preposition, its a segment AFTER those just listed.


The Messiah is cut off in the Seventieth week ("after" 7+62) and His Death ushered in the New Covenant which fulfilled all the goals listed in v. 24, "To finish the transgression (Rom 4:15), To make an end of sins (Rom 6:22; Heb 9:26)), To make reconciliation for iniquity (2 Cor 5:18), To bring in everlasting righteousness (Rom 3:21f), To seal up vision and prophecy (Luk 16:16; Mat. 5:17; Acts 10:43), And to anoint the Most Holy (Luk 4:18 cp Joh. 2:18ff)." 

Therefore its fitting Christ have the entire 70th week all to Himself.


Verse division is not inspired, verse 26 should have ended with the advent of the New Covenant in Christ's blood.

So Dan 9:26a has the Messiah fulfilling all the goals of Dan 9:24 with His death. 26b refers to the Titus destroying the Temple in AD 70, and 26c the continuing desolation that culminated in the Jews being driven out of Palestine by Hadrian about AD 132. 
 
While Dan 9:27 can be rendered with the personal pronoun "he" making it refer to the "prince who is to come," it is NOT required:

LXT  Daniel 9:27 καὶ δυναστεύσει ἡ διαθήκη εἰς πολλούς  (Dan 9:27 LXT)
LXE  Daniel 9:27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation. (Dan 9:27 LXE)


BBE  Daniel 9:27 And a strong order will be sent out against the great number for one week; and so for half of the week the offering and the meal offering will come to an end; and in its place will be an unclean thing causing fear; till the destruction which has been fixed is let loose on him who has made waste. (Dan 9:27 BBE)

Grammatically the pronoun could be left out.

The "prophetic telescoping" is NOT with the Temple in Jerusalem and a rebuilt Temple in the end time, because Gabriel separates 70 AD and the end time, inserting the "times of the Gentiles":
 
 
"And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Luk 21:24 NKJ) 

So we must look for a time period that contains the identifying  3 1/2 years, and that occurs after the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled:
 
NKJ Daniel 12:7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished. 

NKJ  Revelation 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days (Rev 12:6 NKJ)


Critically speaking, this view is parsimonous, conforming to the details of the text, while the commentaries, by separating the weeks, make it impossible the destruction of the temple, and Christ's advent, be in the same week.

Therefore I might characterize the "accepted views" on this, BIZARRE.



Gabriel keeps talking however, he continues prophesying about what happens after the 70 weeks, that the Temple will be destroyed, and later, the Jews led captive into all the nations.

Therefore the week in the book of Revelation, is NOT part of the 70 weeks, and it can be separated from them by thousands of years.

But do the commentaries exegete this critically...no, they all put the 70th week in the end time.

AND THAT IS BIZARRE, as Daniel's usage of weeks doesn't allow it:

If we study Daniel's use of "weeks" (7620 שָׁבוּעַ, lit., "sevens"), he clearly means contiguous weeks. 

"Seven weeks" and "threescore and two weeks" are misleading if they don't refer to two units of time, one totaling 7 adjoining weeks, the other also 62 contiguous weeks. 
 

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks(7620), and threescore and two weeks(7620): the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. (KJV) 


Here we see one week divided into segments where different events occur, but not implying these are separate in a group of more than one literal week: 

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week(7620): and in the midst of the week(7620) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (KJV) 

 
Daniels' mourning occurs in three weeks total, not three divided weeks in a longer period of time. 

Dan 10:2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks(7620). (KJV) 

Dan 10:3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks(7620) were fulfilled. (KJV) 


Its impossible we divide these "weeks", they  are contiguous as seen by Daniels' usage of "weeks."


It is expected Bible prophecy become clearer as we approach its fulfillment...

I submit to you, my interpretation fits scripture perfectly, and while it is different, its certainly no more BIZARRE than what went before it.


To ignore Satan's work in the world, the "mystery (secret) of lawlessness" inspiring rebellion against God's Word of truth, via spiritism (charismania, new age, ufo), to believe THOSE events are not predicted in God's Word of truth, is "bizarre", in contrast to my sound exposition of these things.


Yes, to people our age, they seem bizarre, but 80% of the public now believes there is something to UFOs...those of us who accept the Bible, are now the "fringe."


It should be recalled how inconsistent you are labeling this bizzare, when you fully accept angels as a race of beings who are not "terrestrial."

I argue the church has misunderstood the scriptures about angels, she has accepted incorrect Greek philosophical views about reality, that prevent her from seeing this correctly.

Scripture says there are two realms of existence, one is the MEROS (partial), the other the TELEIOS (complete) 1 Cor 13:10. These are alternate realities....and the inhabitants of both are physical...otherwise how could Jesus sit on His throne, physically, or Moses and Elijah and Enoch, be there also?

Consider the resurrection appearances of Christ, He enters and leaves our MEROS, at will:
[/i]

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Act 1:9-11 KJV)

KJV  John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
 (Joh 20:19 KJV)

Christ didn't ooze through the locked door or walls like a spirit, He "stood in the midst", that is, appeared in our MEROS, physically.

The transfiguration wasn't a dream, it was a coming of the TELEIOS with power, intersecting our MEROS:

 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
 2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
 3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
 4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. (Mar 9:1-4 KJV)


Clearly the idea angels are spirits (sometimes) in our realm, does not prevent they are physical in their realm and can be so in ours (Gen c. 18-19)...to say otherwise is to deny the teaching of scripture.

Therefore, that fallen angels might pretend to be ufo aliens, and proclaim God doesn't exist, is not a bizarre concept...in fact, given the data, it would be bizarre he not do it, given how well that would work for his Antichrist and his new religion...make all previous religions, obsolete as it were, in the minds of the unsaved.

But the elect won't be deceived.

KJV  Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
 (Mat 24:24 KJV)
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« Reply #55 on: January 25, 2011, 01:34:42 PM »

Its clear some of you misunderstand my point, so I've revised the opening paragraph to be more clear:

The argument for extraterrestrials is a false dilemma, Although God's angels use technology ( "The Spaceships of the Prophet Ezekiel",J.F. Blumrich),  it does not follow their message was not from God precisely as the Bible says it is, BECAUSE Scripture reveals they use technology, it was we who failed to interpret the data correctly.

The fundamental premise of the big lie is extraterrestrial aliens exist apart from God---They do not.


Okay..that's a reasonable observation.. The more interesting question is whether or not they are creatures from other planets or are they from a different dimension.. I tend to think the latter.

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« Reply #56 on: January 25, 2011, 02:11:58 PM »

Thanks for the kind reply. It's sad that I have to seek out another forum for help...

There is a thread here on the Nephilim: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=19063.0 (I came across it trying to search out an answer to your question).  However, as specifically applies to your question regarding a return of the Nephilim in the end times I have yet to find anything.
Thanks for the info. You are correct that it doesn't specifically address the end of days Nephilim issue. If Christ said that the end of days would be like the days of Noah, and we had weird angel/human hybrids running around, is it too much to suggest that it will happen again?
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« Reply #57 on: January 25, 2011, 02:33:55 PM »

Because my posts are moderated, Its hard to carry on a discussion.

Maybe if your posts were moderate, they chance of discussion might be possible.
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« Reply #58 on: January 25, 2011, 02:57:33 PM »

Thanks for the kind reply. It's sad that I have to seek out another forum for help...

There is a thread here on the Nephilim: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=19063.0 (I came across it trying to search out an answer to your question).  However, as specifically applies to your question regarding a return of the Nephilim in the end times I have yet to find anything.
Thanks for the info. You are correct that it doesn't specifically address the end of days Nephilim issue. If Christ said that the end of days would be like the days of Noah, and we had weird angel/human hybrids running around, is it too much to suggest that it will happen again?

I think the reason that this isn't addressed too much in Patristic thought is because the identity of the elohim in the Genesis passage has cause for debate.  Throughout the history of the passage itself there have been two differing interpretations as to who the elohim in this passage are: the angels or the sons of Seth.  The link from monachos that Iconodule supplied shows in one of the posts that while a number of the early Fathers did think that the elohim were angels two of the most influential (St Augustine for the West and St John Chrysostom for the East) believed in the sons of Seth theory.

Regarding Christ's statement on the end days, He makes no reference to the nephilim, but He does refer rather specifically to other things that were going on in Noah's day: "They were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, til the day Noah entered the ark." 
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« Reply #59 on: January 25, 2011, 03:07:51 PM »

In my mind there is no other way of interpreting the passage except the angel version. I am aware of the differing views, just wondering why Christ would bring up Noah, if not alluding in some way to this reality. There are multiple UFO cases, some covered in Fr Seraphim's book, of aliens mating with women. Sounds pretty close to the Nephilim scenario.
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« Reply #60 on: January 25, 2011, 03:18:31 PM »

In my mind there is no other way of interpreting the passage except the angel version. I am aware of the differing views, just wondering why Christ would bring up Noah, if not alluding in some way to this reality.

Well, just off the top of my head, in the days of Noah people were being called to repentance and offered the salvation of shelter within the Ark.  They ignored this and went on with daily life, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, just like the fool in Christ's other illustration ("Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we might die".).  That is, they put the processes of living above any regard for their actual lives.

In our wicked end days (the same end days inhabited by Christians throughout the history of the Church) we have people who are being called to repentance and offered the salvation of shelter within the ark of the Church.  They ignore this and go on with daily life, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.

Note that in a lot of Christ's speeches on the end of days He refers not to any wildly fantastic signs (seas boiling, skies falling, the moon flying out of orbit, etc) but rather a continuation of daily life: wars and rumors of wars, famine and plenty, people working in fields, etc.
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« Reply #61 on: January 25, 2011, 03:38:01 PM »

I would agree with what you have said. There are fantastic happenings mixed with the mundane. I always thought that, even though there are differing opinions about Genesis 6:4, that the majority held the angelic view. Am I incorrect? I would imagine that belief in the return of the Nephilim would not be unOrthodox? I know that there are a lot of Protestants that espouse the return of the Nephilim, although that is not always a problem. They are not wrong on all things theological. Just most.
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« Reply #62 on: January 25, 2011, 04:29:55 PM »

I would agree with what you have said. There are fantastic happenings mixed with the mundane. I always thought that, even though there are differing opinions about Genesis 6:4, that the majority held the angelic view. Am I incorrect? I would imagine that belief in the return of the Nephilim would not be unOrthodox? I know that there are a lot of Protestants that espouse the return of the Nephilim, although that is not always a problem. They are not wrong on all things theological. Just most.


Personally, I think trying to nail down too much of what will happen in the "final days" is a fool's errand.  We have very little knowledge to go on, beyond prophesies of a "great apostasy", anti-Christ after anti-Christ til one final ultimate Antichrist, and the uprising of Gog and Magog.  I believe there's good reason that there isn't much specificity given.

As for the majority view on the Nephilim, according to the thread on the other forum that Iconodule linked there was a tally of Patristic references and it did seem that the majority fell on the angel side, but there were no specific references, so I can't verify this on my own without much study (and I hate studying with specific results in mind, it might color my interpretation).

Personally, I like the idea of the angelic interpretation, it appeals to the more mythic impulses of my mind and makes sense of the whole "giants" translation.  I've written page after page of fiction incorporating this idea (fantasy where the Nephilim were the sons and daughters of faerie-human hybrids, horror where the genesis of vampires was this event, and super-hero comic books where the whole possibility of fantastic powers is introduced into the human genome by this event).  But my like or dislike of the notion is one thing, I think within the whole framework of Christianity and world history it's just not that important.  It's not dogma, it's a playful theory that becomes dangerous if too much importance is given to it, much like debating the origins of Melchizedek.

Now, as all this regards alien activity, well, I think it's possible that ufo's and such could be demonic influence, but it's just as likely that they are the symptom of an all-too human tendency to mythologize the world around us where our current mythology demands a "rational and scientific" foundation.  Taking Fr Seraphim Rose into account, I have read his book (IIRC you're referring to Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future).  While I highly respect his life and work I tend to take this particular book with a grain of salt as he ascribes much power to "demonic activity" in certain areas where I know that the only "demonic activity" that actually goes on is the demon whispering in the ear of the charlatan to pass off mere tricks and illusions as magical powers.
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« Reply #63 on: January 25, 2011, 04:54:53 PM »

Actually, some aliens are our enemies.

And some aliens are the Allies of Humanity!

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« Reply #64 on: January 25, 2011, 05:23:01 PM »

Actually, some aliens are our enemies.

And some aliens are the Allies of Humanity!

Choose this day whom you will serve.

On that note, I believe the immortal words of Dr Peter Venkman should be remembered: "...and that is the whole problem with aliens is you just can't trust them. Occasionally you meet a nice once: Star Man, E.T... But usually they turn out to be some kind of big lizard!"
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« Reply #65 on: January 25, 2011, 05:38:43 PM »

Thanks for the kind reply. It's sad that I have to seek out another forum for help...

Sorry you didn't get any response. I think part of it was that your question was buried in a thread about UFOs. Smiley  I think perhaps because of the nature of this thread many people never even saw it.

Quote
I have heard, and personally believe it as well, that in the end of days the Nephilim will return. Are there any patristic quotes about the Return of the Nephilim? Christ said that as were the days of Noah, so also will it be in the end.

I've never heard anything about a "return of the Nephilim", however Wikipedia has this:

From Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim

Quote
Likewise, a long-held view among some Christians is that the "sons of God" who fathered the Nephilim spoken of in the text, were in fact the formerly righteous descendants of Seth who rebelled, while the "daughters of men" were the unrighteous descendants of Cain, and the Nephilim the offspring of their union.[36] This view dates to at least the 3rd century AD, with references throughout the Clementine literature[37], as well as in Sextus Julius Africanus,[38], Ephrem the Syrian[39] and others (see below, "In other texts"). Holders of this view[40] have looked for support in Jesus' statement that "in the days before the flood they (humans) were marrying and giving in marriage"[41]

Some individuals and groups, including St. Augustine, John Chrysostom, and John Calvin, take the view of Genesis 6:2 that the "Angels" who fathered the Nephilim referred to certain human males from the lineage of Seth, who were called sons of God probably in reference to their being formerly in a covenantal relationship with Yahweh (cf. Deuteronomy 14:1; 32:5); according to these sources, these men had begun to pursue bodily interests, and so took wives of the daughters of men, e.g., those who were descended from Cain or from any people who did not worship God.

So according to some of the Church fathers the Nephilim are simply "unrighteous" human beings. Not angel/human hybrids (exactly how would a pure spirit being have sex with a female human exactly???) Then that raises the question, uh, angels have the power to create like God? Well then, if so, they are "gods" then aren't they? Not just created beings, but something that through their own will have the power to create. That is by my definition a god. Not the most High God, but a god none the less. Which is actually what the text probably meant when it was written. That these beings were gods who had sex with female humans giving birth to the Nephilim, kind of like how the cyclops came into existence in greek mythology. If you want to discuss the what the "text" means and what the author of the text likely , that's kind of a different topic because we'd be delving into ancient Israelite Polytheism. the text itself says "sons of God" (can't recall which word is used for "God" probably some form of El) it's explicitly saying these "sons" are like the sons of other gods, gods themselves. It says NOTHING at all about angels or messengers, or spiritual beings, it says "sons of god" What does the text mean? Does it mean angels? If so why should we think that? it could also mean humans since we are in fact God's children which seems acceptable to me.

If you want to assume, as the book of Enoch and Jude does that it does mean angels, well don't worry these Nephilim are locked up in Tartarus like Enoch and 1st Peter says. (or is it 2nd Peter?) Smiley

One other link is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_God


One point that article makes is that Jesus made a specific point in saying that angels did not "marry nor are given in marriages", was he making the point that they could not reproduce? I personally find that likely. I DO think the author of this story in Genesis DID mythologize whatever it is he is talking about . . . but who knows? Maybe he didn't have anything in mind and was just writing down a story that had become sacred by the time he recorded and it's original meaning had long been forgotten.

These are fascinating topics actually, however I think it's important for us to remember it is all just speculation. Any interpretation is possible, some are more probable than others but the Church has never given any definitive view on this subject so as long as we don't dogmatize this, it could make for an interesting discussion.



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« Reply #66 on: January 25, 2011, 07:14:53 PM »

Quote
If you want to assume, as the book of Enoch and Jude does that it does mean angels, well don't worry these Nephilim are locked up in Tartarus like Enoch and 1st Peter says. (or is it 2nd Peter?)
I think it is actually the Fallen Angels that are bound in Tartarus. Not their offspring the Nephilim. I think that when Christ says we would be like the angels in heaven has a very specific meaning. Angels in heaven. Not fallen angels. Most of the religions of the world have a story/myth of something coming from above and mating with humans. Much like the flood accounts worldwide. Jude and others in the NT speak, IMO, of the angelic view. Why should this be any different in our day and time?

On the other end of the spectrum, you are correct that we should NOT attempt to delve too deeply into end times scenarios. Very pointless.
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« Reply #67 on: January 26, 2011, 11:40:13 AM »



On the other end of the spectrum, you are correct that we should NOT attempt to delve too deeply into end times scenarios. Very pointless.

Well, I'm not sure it's pointless. I think it's always good to broaden our own personal views, look at different interpretations and possibilities and then weigh these new possibilities with our old ones and see which seems most probably, likely, within a given theological tradition or framework. As we know though, questions like this are in the end speculation and must be kept in mind. If we hold an Enochic framework we are likely to take one over the other, but if we hold another theological framework then we might have another view. It's always fun to speculate, but as the Fathers say we need to be on guard to no delve to deep into things which really make little difference our personal theosis. It matters not either way, but it's still loads of fun and is a good exercise in learning and it might help people make sense of parts of the Bible that might not make sense in any other light.


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« Reply #68 on: January 26, 2011, 02:32:34 PM »

Thanks for the kind reply. It's sad that I have to seek out another forum for help...

There is a thread here on the Nephilim: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=19063.0 (I came across it trying to search out an answer to your question).  However, as specifically applies to your question regarding a return of the Nephilim in the end times I have yet to find anything.
Thanks for the info. You are correct that it doesn't specifically address the end of days Nephilim issue. If Christ said that the end of days would be like the days of Noah, and we had weird angel/human hybrids running around, is it too much to suggest that it will happen again?

I think the reason that this isn't addressed too much in Patristic thought is because the identity of the elohim in the Genesis passage has cause for debate.  Throughout the history of the passage itself there have been two differing interpretations as to who the elohim in this passage are: the angels or the sons of Seth.  The link from monachos that Iconodule supplied shows in one of the posts that while a number of the early Fathers did think that the elohim were angels two of the most influential (St Augustine for the West and St John Chrysostom for the East) believed in the sons of Seth theory.

Regarding Christ's statement on the end days, He makes no reference to the nephilim, but He does refer rather specifically to other things that were going on in Noah's day: "They were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, til the day Noah entered the ark." 


Some of the confusion is equating Nephilim (lxx, Giants >Greek myth Titans) with the offspring of the "sons of God." The Septuagint is preserving the truth, choosing the Greek word that communicates the idea of God's having sex with mankind, while Jewish apocryphal works got it wrong thinking the Nephilim were the children of these "gods".

NKJ  Genesis 6:1 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them,
 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.
 3 And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."
 4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
 5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
 7 So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."
 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
 9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.
 (Gen 6:1-9 NKJ)

The details of scripture are not to be generalized and made to fit apocryphal ideas of Nephilim as the children of the "sons of God", that is impossible as they are contemporaries:

"There were giants (gigas, נְפִילִים , ίγας) on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God"

Making them contemporaries don't communicate the idea they are offspring. They are a class of angel different than the "sons of God," these are the "sons of the Devil."

The Septuagint translates Nephilim as the Greek Titans or "giants" who had sexual relations with mankind, to distinguish these fallen angels from the "sons of God" who also  bore children. Confirming this, just as the Titans are imprisoned in Tartarus, so also Peter says the same (2 Pe 2:4).

That the Nephilim would sin is not news worthy, that the "sons of God" He sent to combat the Nephilim would instead succumb to the seductive charms of women, is.

This is why God is very angry at men, even more so than at the "sons of God", because the latter were sent to help, but mankind seduced them with their daughters.

As God gave man dominion over the earth (Gen 1:26), their joining Satan's quest to produce seed to fight God's Seed (Gen 3:15) made them particularly liable. Rather than join God's angels in fighting the evil, they joined with His enemy.

Noah was perfect in his generations, the image of God was not contaminated with the dna (image) of angels.

However, it is implied by Gen 6:9 and 6:5 that finding purely human beings was becoming difficult, and it is likely those who were saved with Noah, had angelic DNA and its from this remnant of contamination the giants appeared after the flood.

Scripture is very clear, no giants survived the flood, nor did their offspring. That is why scripture does not call the giants who appear after the flood, Nephilim. Num 14:33 does not contradict this:

33 "There we saw the giants (the descendants of Anak came from the giants); and we were like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight." (Num 13:33 NKJ)

The parenthetical comment is to explain their argument, they are exaggerating, claiming these Anak came from the Nephilim, and "we were like grasshoppers."

Caleb had effectively refuted their argument against obeying God in verse 30, that is why they now exaggerate calling these Nephilim. They lied.

Scripture is very clear, no Nephilim survived the flood:

22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died. (Gen 7:22 NKJ)

BUT evidently angelic DNA survived among those who were saved with Noah, hence we read of later accounts of six fingered men and giants etc.

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« Reply #69 on: January 26, 2011, 03:28:42 PM »

So Anne Boleyn (who had six fingers on one hand) had angelic DNA?
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« Reply #70 on: January 26, 2011, 03:33:42 PM »

Well, everyone knows that the Reapers are simply going to invade the Milky Way and wipe out any and all advanced life. Thus sayeth the Commander Shepherd.
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« Reply #71 on: January 26, 2011, 07:58:01 PM »

Well, everyone knows that the Reapers are simply going to invade the Milky Way and wipe out any and all advanced life. Thus sayeth the Commander Shepherd.
Reapers!!!! No!!! Great show/movie. Smiley
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« Reply #72 on: January 26, 2011, 08:05:50 PM »

Seasons don't fear the Reaper. Nor do the wind, the sun, or the rain. We can be like they are. Come on, baby. Take my hand. Don't fear the Reaper.
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« Reply #73 on: January 26, 2011, 10:47:42 PM »

Seasons don't fear the Reaper. Nor do the wind, the sun, or the rain. We can be like they are. Come on, baby. Take my hand. Don't fear the Reaper.

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« Reply #74 on: January 26, 2011, 11:10:28 PM »

Seasons don't fear the Reaper. Nor do the wind, the sun, or the rain. We can be like they are. Come on, baby. Take my hand. Don't fear the Reaper.

Needs more cow bell.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

At least this thread is getting back to being entertaining again.

Over / Under on how many minutes a party ends once Alfred enters the room?

I am starting the line at 4.

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« Reply #75 on: January 26, 2011, 11:38:05 PM »

At least this thread is getting back to being entertaining again.
Yeah, why would we want anyone having a discussion, or asking questions? How boring!!! Let's just make every thread random postings???!!!! That way we never have to be serious, or bother with helping others!!!  Grin Grin Smiley Shocked Shocked Shocked Roll Eyes Tongue Lips Sealed Kiss Kiss Cry Kiss
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« Reply #76 on: January 27, 2011, 12:21:34 AM »

At least this thread is getting back to being entertaining again.
Yeah, why would we want anyone having a discussion, or asking questions? How boring!!! Let's just make every thread random postings???!!!! That way we never have to be serious, or bother with helping others!!!  Grin Grin Smiley Shocked Shocked Shocked Roll Eyes Tongue Lips Sealed Kiss Kiss Cry Kiss


I've heard better discussions had by a schizophrenic with themselves.
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« Reply #77 on: January 27, 2011, 04:11:22 AM »

So Anne Boleyn (who had six fingers on one hand) had angelic DNA?

Don't know...but  perhaps this did:

 6 Yet again there was war at Gath, where there was a man of great stature, with twenty-four fingers and toes, six on each hand and six on each foot; and he also was born to the giant. (1Ch 20:6 NKJ)

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« Reply #78 on: January 27, 2011, 04:11:22 AM »

Well, everyone knows that the Reapers are simply going to invade the Milky Way and wipe out any and all advanced life. Thus sayeth the Commander Shepherd.

Frankly, I pray I am wrong. A bona fide landing by ufo aliens, would devastate the faith of most, regardless what religion they now hold.

Such a landing would allow the Antichrist raise himself up above everything that was, till then, called God:

NKJ  2 Thessalonians 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
 (2Th 2:4 NKJ)

A ufo landing would so devastate the belief system of coreligionists, it would be like changing the very times and laws they once believed true:

NKJ  Daniel 7:25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time. (Dan 7:25 NKJ)

Such beings could order world wide persecution of Christians, where even one's own family would turn Christians in, for "stubbornly clinging to fairy tales about God"

NKJ  Revelation 13:10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
 (Rev 13:10 NKJ)

 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
 (Mat 24:21-22 KJV)

I can only hope this is all wrong...and we all can have a laugh...


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« Reply #79 on: January 27, 2011, 10:18:45 AM »

Frankly, I pray I am wrong.
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« Reply #80 on: January 28, 2011, 05:22:12 AM »

Well, everyone knows that the Reapers are simply going to invade the Milky Way and wipe out any and all advanced life. Thus sayeth the Commander Shepherd.

I didn't invent the "message" these fallen angels will preach...they already are preaching it:

http://www.rael.org/

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« Reply #81 on: February 04, 2011, 03:11:54 PM »

What happened? Not interested in this?

The locusts of Rev 9

As it is impossible humans see the "seal of God" on the foreheads of His people, the following cannot refer to human armament.


1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit.
 2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit.
 3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
 5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man.
 6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.
 7 The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men.
 8 They had hair like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth.
 9 And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle.
 10 They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months.
 11 And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon. (Rev 9:1-11 NKJ)

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
 (Jud 1:6 NKJ)

These fallen angels released from the Abyss (ἄβυσσος) of Torment (Luk 8:31) are still bound (Jude 1:6) by God's will, that is the meaning of Locusts prohibited from eating the vegetation they voraciously crave (9:4), they are compelled to torment their own followers rather than the children of God they despise.

The crowns indicate these fallen angels "Nephilim; fallen ones" (Gen 6:4) once reigned as kings in the antediluvian world and were contemporaries of the "sons of God" who were seduced by the women of men, effectively joining the satanic plot to produce a hybrid human-angel seed to war against the seed of the woman (Gen 3:15).. The long hair and lions teeth indicate they are extremely vicious and blood thirsty warriors who once feasted on human and animal blood (cp Gen 9:4-6). Their breastplates of iron symbolizes imperviousness, the sound of chariots and many horses their power to rip to shreds any standing army.

Their ruler is the Devil "who would be King"---incarnate in the hybrid human "son of perdition" (John 13:27; 17:12l 2 Th 2:3), that is the meaning of the Hebrew "Abaddon"---Destruction,  the angel who Destroyed many only to be destroyed himself  (Dan 9:27; Rev 20:10),. The symbolic name Apollyon confirms, it being a cryptic reference to emperors who claimed to be the Greek god Apollos incarnate.

These are bound to do God's will, while Satan helplessly watches, for five months. The limit implies these return to their torments in the Abyss after they have accomplished all God has commanded they do.

To  sum up, this is not a reference to angelic or human technology, nor ufo aliens as their existence is only a strong delusion.


The horrible punishment of these spiritists should have compelled others to repentance, but it did not:

20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.
 21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries1 or their sexual immorality or their thefts. (Rev 9:20-21 NKJ)
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« Reply #82 on: February 04, 2011, 03:11:54 PM »

The locusts of Rev 9

As it is impossible humans see the "seal of God" on the foreheads of His people, the following cannot refer to human armament.


1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit.
 2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit.
 3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
 5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man.
 6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.
 7 The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men.
 8 They had hair like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth.
 9 And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle.
 10 They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months.
 11 And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon. (Rev 9:1-11 NKJ)

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
 (Jud 1:6 NKJ)

These fallen angels released from the Abyss (ἄβυσσος) of Torment (Luk 8:31) are still bound (Jude 1:6) by God's will, that is the meaning of Locusts prohibited from eating the vegetation they voraciously crave (9:4), they are compelled to torment their own followers rather than the children of God they despise (cp 1 Sa 16:14; Acts 5:16; Isa 50:11).

The crowns indicate these fallen angels "Nephilim; fallen ones" (Gen 6:4) once reigned as kings in the antediluvian world and were contemporaries of the "sons of God" who were seduced by the women of men, effectively joining the satanic plot to produce a hybrid human-angel seed to war against the seed of the woman (Gen 3:15).. The long hair and lions teeth indicate they are extremely vicious and blood thirsty warriors who once feasted on human and animal blood (cp Gen 9:4-6). Their breastplates of iron symbolizes imperviousness, the sound of chariots and many horses their power to rip into and shred  infantry. They stung their victims like scorpions, who hold their prey while their tail administers the tormenting poison.

Their ruler is the Devil "who would be The King"---incarnate in the hybrid human "son of perdition" (John 13:27; 17:12l 2 Th 2:3), that is the meaning of the Hebrew "Abaddon"---Destruction,  the angel who Destroyed many only to be destroyed himself  (Dan 9:27; Rev 20:10),. The symbolic name Apollyon confirms, it being a cryptic reference to emperors who claimed to be the Greek god Apollos incarnate.

These are bound to do God's will, while Satan helplessly watches, for five months. The limit implies these return to their torments in the Abyss after they have accomplished all God has commanded they do.

To  sum up, this is not a reference to angelic or human technology, nor ufo aliens as their existence is only a strong delusion.


The horrible punishment of these spiritists should have compelled others to repentance, but it did not:

20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.
 21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries1 or their sexual immorality or their thefts. (Rev 9:20-21 NKJ)
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« Reply #83 on: February 15, 2011, 12:46:16 PM »

Gabriel's Prophetic Telescoping

While Daniel does say 70 weeks are determined...Gabriel does NOT say he will stop prophesying after he discusses the 70th week...

 24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.
 25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.
 26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;


Many ignore Gabriel said AFTER 7+62 weeks, that is AFTER the 69th week, which is in the 70th week.


THAT Gabriel keeps prophesying about events that happen AFTER the 70th week, does not contradict this.

It is natural Gabriel go on to indicate what will become of the temple and the Jews...

It is also natural Gabriel's prophecy "telescopes" from the New Covenant's bringing in everlasting righteousness, to the 2nd coming of Christ when He does the same...just as the other OT prophets  telescoped the first and second advents.

But that week is NOT part of the seventy, for the New Covenant in Christ's blood replaced the Mosaic sacrifices in the 70th week, in the first century.

Because of all that Christ accomplished, it fits the division of time in "sevens" that He have a whole week to Himself. The "symbolism" of cutting up time into "sevens"  is that God did a completed work within a 7, 7 symbolic of completeness. Ten also represent completeness...hence Ten x Seven, Seventy = completed work of God's redemption...Messiah cut off...for our sins...end of Mosaic Law, beginning of everlasting righteousness via the efficacy of Christ's blood sacrifice.

Chapter verse divisions aren't inspired, they were created by men centuries after the Bible was written, and the verse ended there.

Verse 26b should have been verse 27.

 And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." (Dan 9:24-27 NKJ)


"Then HE shall confirm"..., the pronoun "HE" in verse 27 is not required for literal translation, its in the inflection only, hence some translations (like the Septuagint) don't have the pronoun, which means verse 27 can be speaking about someone other than the "prince who is to come."

So I interpret the death of Christ fulfilled the 70th week, then years later the Temple is destroyed about 70 AD, and much later the Jews are scattered into all the nations, just as Christ prophesied.

Gabriel included the destruction of the Temple, even though it happened after the 70ty weeks, because it is relevant to Daniel's concerns, not because it must be within the Seventy weeks. So also his continuing to discuss the Diaspora which happened in the 2nd century, or the rise of the Antichrist which likely happens in th 21st century, because its relevant to Daniel's concerns...and ours...not because it happens in the Seventy weeks.

They ended with the Law ending, just as Dan 9:24 implies.

The  "prophetic telescoping" then is Christ's completed work of redemption in the 1st century, and His completing the work in the end times, bringing in His kingdom...

The Jews being scattered into all the nations, is the "valley" between the two events, which "telescoped" seem to occur one right after the other.

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« Reply #84 on: February 18, 2011, 04:55:58 AM »

Rev 9:13 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

"Horns" represent kingship (Dan 7-8), power to save (Ex 29:12) or destroy (Ex 21:14), "four" completeness  (Rev 4:6-8), hence the voice sounding from the four horns of the altar before God symbolizes it has God's authority and everything in this vision is by God's decree, not the independent action of its actors.


14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."

Compare:

6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
 (2Th 2:6-8 NKJ)


God unleashes the lying spirits that cause Babylon the Great to apostatize (fall) from all that is called God, to a new spiritistic religion of the antichrist. This kills them  spiritually and physically.

NKJ  Jeremiah 51:1 Thus says the LORD: "Behold, I will raise up against Babylon, Against those who dwell in Leb Kamai, A destroying wind. (Jer 51:1 NKJ)

The "Athbash"  "Leb Kamai" is a cipher that reverses the order of spelling to indicate something more than Chaldea is meant, namely, "Babylon the Great."

The four angels are symbolic, not actual angels just as the four horses of the apocalypse are not actual horses, they symbolize what is being released will go out in every direction (Rev 6).

All not having God's name on their forehead (Rev 9:4; Mat 24:24; 2 Thess 2:13f) in Leb Kami Babylon the Great are the targets.

2 And I will send winnowers to Babylon, Who shall winnow her and empty her land. For in the day of doom They shall be against her all around.
 3 Against her let the archer bend his bow, And lift himself up against her in his armor. Do not spare her young men; Utterly destroy all her army.
 4 Thus the slain shall fall in the land of the Chaldeans, And those thrust through in her streets.
 5 For Israel is not forsaken, nor Judah, By his God, the LORD of hosts, Though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel."
 6 Flee from the midst of Babylon, And every one save his life! Do not be cut off in her iniquity, For this is the time of the LORD'S vengeance; He shall recompense her. (Jer 51:2-6 NKJ)


Verse 6 shows this occurs when God commands His people come out of Babylon:

4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
 5 "For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
 6 "Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.
 7 "In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart,`I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.'
 8 "Therefore her plagues will come in one day-- death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her. (Rev 18:4-8 NKJ)


15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind.

God decree is for this precise time, no more...no less, the scope of its destruction is limited "a third of mankind" is killed, not all.


16 Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them.


"Two hundred million"  (δισμυριάδες μυριάδων) understates their number, μυριάς (“ten thousand”) designates an incalculable immensity, figurative of an innumerable, indefinite host (Gen. 24:60; Lev. 26:8; Num. 10:35[36]; Deut. 32:30; 33:2, 17; 1 Kgs. 18:7–8; 21:12[11]; Ps. 3:7[6]; Cant. 5:10; Sir. 47:6; Mic. 6:7; Dan. 7:10; in Ps. 90(91):7 LXX.


17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone.

This is a vision (ὅρασις) like Daniel's (4, 5, 8 etc), therefore these are symbols, not descriptions of actual objects. The horses are not technology, human or angelic...they symbolize an army.

These demon spirits are God's army of unholy myriads He sends to consume children of the Devil.

τοὺς καθημένους ἐπ᾽ αὐτῶν "those sitting (middle voice)  on them" indicates the riders are affected by the action, not initiating it. God is in complete control, the demons are His helpless victims, they are now being forced to destroy their own followers.


All three colors of the breastplates and their phenomena occur in a volcano; hence, this is symbolic of hell. While breastplates of righteousness (Is 59:17; Eph 6:14) faith and love (1 Th 5:8) exist, these are breastplates of destruction...all killed by this demonic army are cast into the lowest hell to await judgment day.

Just as the heads of the tails injure (vs. 19), these "heads of lions" are ruthlessly efficient killing, "eager to tear...ambush" (Ps 17:12) to devour (1 Pet 5:8),

The "fire, smoke and brimstone" out of their mouths is the judgment of God against the slain (Rev 14:10)



18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed-- by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths.


Given the symbolic nature of this vision, "a third" symbolizes God's restraint, it could have been much worse.

19 For their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.

This symbolizes all not consumed by the fire from their mouths, are killed by venom. This demonic killing horde is terrifyingly efficient, it kills those in front, and any it missed, as it passes through the ranks.


This isn't merely physical death, its spiritual also. These rise up in the Day of Christ only to be cast head long into the lake which burns with fire and sulphur.


20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.
 21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts. (Rev 9:13-21 NKJ)


This confirms the connection is to Babylon the Great and its great spiritistic falling away from all previous beliefs in God, to follow the "god of forces" (Dan 11:38f) the demon spirits preached:

And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird! (Rev 18:2 NKJ)
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« Reply #85 on: February 18, 2011, 08:29:40 AM »

Alfred, have  you met your atheist doppelganger TheJackel?
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« Reply #86 on: February 18, 2011, 08:38:14 AM »

Alfred, have  you met your atheist doppelganger TheJackel?

Lol
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« Reply #87 on: February 18, 2011, 01:15:08 PM »

Alfred, have  you met your atheist doppelganger TheJackel?

Why no comment on the exegesis?

An intelligent response would be appreciated.
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« Reply #88 on: February 18, 2011, 01:42:58 PM »

Alfred, have  you met your atheist doppelganger TheJackel?

Why no comment on the exegesis?

An intelligent response would be appreciated.
Do you still not understand, that as Orthodox Christians, we will never care about an individuals private interpretation of the Bible? Or do you not care what we believe.
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« Reply #89 on: February 18, 2011, 02:02:16 PM »

Alfred, have  you met your atheist doppelganger TheJackel?

Why no comment on the exegesis?

An intelligent response would be appreciated.
Do you still not understand, that as Orthodox Christians, we will never care about an individuals private interpretation of the Bible? Or do you not care what we believe.

To discuss anything you have to care enough to know what the other person thinks.

I never said I wasn't interested in the Orthodox interpretation of these things...I'd like to know it, discuss it, see if I agree.
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