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Author Topic: The Strong Delusion is extraterrestrial Designers are our gods  (Read 7677 times) Average Rating: 0
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Alfred Persson
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« on: January 22, 2011, 03:33:37 PM »

And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2Th 2:11-12 NKJ)

What precisely will the strong delusion/lie propose? That Extraterrestrial scientists intelligently designed life on this planet and gave it its religions. Therefore a worldwide falling away from traditional beliefs in Deity must come first, for these beings and their spokesman to sit as gods on the earth:

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. (2Th 2:3-4 NKJ)


9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,

The arrival of the "Designers" will be according to energy of Satan, with all power, signs and wonders that are "lying" because they powerfully convince all to believe the lie, not because they aren't real.


10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2Th 2:10-12 NKJ)


Because men chose not to believe God's Word of Truth the Bible, He stops restraining the fallen angels from appearing once again in our sphere of existence, thus "sending" us Satan's hybrid human/angel seed who would rise and strike Christ in the heel (Gen 3:15). This is that Antichrist scripture predicted would come (1 Jn 2:18ff; 4:3ff; 2 Jo 1:7), an apostate Christian who betrays Christ like Judas, hence is called the "son of destruction" (2 Th 2:3; Jo 17:12).


He will ride like God upon the wing of an abomination, a Satanically energized craft desolating all who would oppose him (Da 9:27) by fire from heaven (Re 13:13), and men will say "who can make war against him" (Re 13:4).


The hybid seed rose up as a Saviour the first part of the week, and makes a covenant with the world's religions, to bring about paradise on earth together with them.

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. (Dan 9:27 NKJ)


All the world's religions agree to follow  him, they are called here "Mystery Babylon" or "Babylon the Great" because similar world wide rebellion first appeared in ancient Babylon (Gen 11:9), This is what is meant by "Babylon is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons." All the  worlds religions forsake their former beliefs, and practice spiritism, behaving as contactees in communion with demons.


Then the True God takes vengeance, putting it into the heart of world's rulers to destroy the now obsolete religions:


16 "And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these will hate the harlot, make her desolate and naked, eat her flesh and burn her with fire.
 17 "For God has put it into their hearts to fulfill His purpose, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God are fulfilled. (Rev 17:16-17 NKJ)


All are ordered to accept the Mark of the beast. Hence the wilderness of Babylon no longer shields the Daughter of Zion, the Elect of God from harm (Re 12:1-6) so she is ordered to come out:

16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads,
 17 and that no one may buy or sell except one who has the mark or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. (Rev 13:16-17 NKJ)

4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
 5 "For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
 (Rev 18:4-5 NKJ)

For a time it is granted the power of God's people be smashed to bits, but then the end shall come:

7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished. (Dan 12:7 NKJ)


11 "And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."
 12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.
 13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying to me, "Write:`Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them."
 14 Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and on the cloud sat One like the Son of Man, having on His head a golden crown, and in His hand a sharp sickle.
 15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to Him who sat on the cloud, "Thrust in Your sickle and reap, for the time has come for You to reap, for the harvest of the earth is ripe."
 16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.
 (Rev 14:11-16 NKJ)


These raptured meet their LORD in the air lest they become collateral damage, and the dead in Christ rise up just before them:
 
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
 (1Th 4:15-18 NKJ)


 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed--
 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. (1Co 15:51-52 NKJ)

 24 "But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light;
 25 "the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken.
 26 "Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
 27 "And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. (Mar 13:24-27 NKJ)

This is that first resurrection, they will reign with Christ during His thousand-year kingdom on earth:


4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev 20:4-6 NKJ)



BUT BEFORE this, the end of the week shall come:

17 Then another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
 18 And another angel came out from the altar, who had power over fire, and he cried with a loud cry to him who had the sharp sickle, saying, "Thrust in your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth, for her grapes are fully ripe."
 19 So the angel thrust his sickle into the earth and gathered the vine of the earth, and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
 20 And the winepress was trampled outside the city, and blood came out of the winepress, up to the horses' bridles, for one thousand six hundred furlongs.  (Rev 14:17-1 NKJ)


Billions survive the coming of Christ, and these are tested during the thousand year reign. Age and disease will be gone, but any who begin sinning, even if he looks like a child, will die:

20 "No more shall an infant from there live but a few days, Nor an old man who has not fulfilled his days; For the child shall die one hundred years old, But the sinner being one hundred years old shall be accursed.
 21 They shall build houses and inhabit them; They shall plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
 22 They shall not build and another inhabit; They shall not plant and another eat; For as the days of a tree, so shall be the days of My people, And My elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands.
 23 They shall not labor in vain, Nor bring forth children for trouble; For they shall be the descendants of the blessed of the LORD, And their offspring with them.
 24 "It shall come to pass That before they call, I will answer; And while they are still speaking, I will hear.
 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, The lion shall eat straw like the ox, And dust shall be the serpent's food. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain," Says the LORD. (Isa 65:20-25 NKJ)

At the end of the thousand years there will be many yet unsaved, Satan will  once again lead them in rebellion against God. After this is crushed, Judgment Day for all will occur, and any not found in the Lamb's book of life, suffer the death from which there is no resurrection.

7 Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison
 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea.
 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.
 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
 11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
 12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
 14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
 15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 (Rev 20:7-1 NKJ)



Then New Jerusalem descends---God's dwells with man on earth:

2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
 3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
 4 "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
 5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful." (Rev 21:2-5 NKJ)


God willing, I hope to expound these things fully at my own site, address yet unknown, its domain name will be:

strong-delusion.com


Please share this with others.

20 He who testifies to these things says, "Surely I am coming quickly." Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus!
 21 The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen. (Rev 22:20-21 NKJ)



Until I set up my site you can find more on angels and their Telios in contrast to our MEROS, here:

http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?35156-The-wings-of-the-Great-Eagle-Rev-12-14-is-power-from-the-kingdoms-of-Babylon

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« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2011, 04:26:50 PM »

You just made my head explode!

« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 04:27:12 PM by Asteriktos » Logged

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« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2011, 04:29:05 PM »

So there is more than just one flying spaghetti monster?
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« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2011, 05:10:59 PM »

That is not dead which can eternal lie
And with strange aeons, even death may die.
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« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2011, 05:35:18 PM »

Alfred, does the Bible ever explicitly identify as the "strong delusion" the belief that extraterrestrial designers are our gods? If not, then what is the source of your teaching? And why do you call yourself a sola scripturist if you're adding such unbiblical doctrines to the word of Scripture?
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« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2011, 05:52:01 PM »

Didn't Seraphim Rose have a similar idea?
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« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2011, 05:58:50 PM »

Didn't Seraphim Rose have a similar idea?
You mean Fr. Seraphim Rose?
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« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2011, 06:00:17 PM »

Didn't Fr. Seraphim Rose have a similar idea?

That's interesting, would like to know more one that.
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« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2011, 06:23:32 PM »

Didn't Fr. Seraphim Rose have a similar idea?

That's interesting, would like to know more one that.
In his work, Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future, he covered the recent interest in extraterrestrial life in rather great detail.
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« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2011, 06:42:00 PM »

Didn't Fr. Seraphim Rose have a similar idea?

That's interesting, would like to know more one that.

From what I can ascertain from the book, he believed that UFOs were demonic illusions/delusions meant to distract and ultimately wrap a person's whole life up in that kind of thing as an obsession. Basically like Richard Dreyfuss' character in "Close Encounters of the Third Kind." In the end, alien culture/UFOlogy would basically fill their religious needs (if that makes sense).

The same could probably be said for things like Bigfoot: the demons inventing things to lure people away from any pursuit of God. (Although I guess they don't need to go as far with everyone; most people are lured away from God by far less fantastic things.)
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« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2011, 08:23:05 PM »

That's fascinating, I see the point Fr. Rose is making, and I agree. What's that Chesterton quote "If you don't believe in God, you'll believe in anything"
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« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2011, 08:47:32 PM »

Sorry, yes, Fr. Seraphim Rose.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2011, 08:48:12 PM by NicholasMyra » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2011, 09:22:00 PM »

"You ask why we must cleanse the xenos. I will tell you.
The filth of the alien and the witch must be exterminated to preserve the purity of the Human race,
lest we degenerate into abomination."

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« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2011, 10:43:18 PM »

"You ask why we must cleanse the xenos. I will tell you.
The filth of the alien and the witch must be exterminated to preserve the purity of the Human race,
lest we degenerate into abomination."

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Sorry, I just couldn't resist posting this. Bonus points to the nerd that understands the joke.  Cheesy

Is this a joke about Scientology?
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« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2011, 10:52:18 PM »

I'm so confused:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFx7xNPP8bQ
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« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2011, 10:56:25 PM »

Didn't Fr. Seraphim Rose have a similar idea?

That's interesting, would like to know more one that.
It must be stressed that the UFO hypothesis of Fr. Seraphim, in no way resembles the ideas espoused in the article posted by Alfred. Read the book PtA suggested for more info.
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« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2011, 11:36:40 PM »

God willing, I hope to expound these things fully at my own site, address yet unknown, its domain name will be:

strong-delusion.com


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« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2011, 12:09:40 AM »

Alfred, are you OK? Sad
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« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2011, 02:52:42 AM »


He will ride like God upon the wing of an abomination, a Satanically energized craft desolating all who would oppose him (Da 9:27) by fire from heaven (Re 13:13), and men will say "who can make war against him" (Re 13:4).



Add under this:

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." (Dan 9:27 NKJ) (see Keil, C. F., & Delitzsch, F. (2002). Commentary on the Old Testament. (Da 9:27). Peabody, MA: Hendrickson. 
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« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2011, 02:52:42 AM »

Everyone willfully ignorant about angels, that they use technology (Ezek c.1), will be blindsided when God alllows fallen angels (Nephilim) to consort with man again. They will pretend to be extra terrestrials, and they will be as real as we are. THAT will devastate all not knowing the Bible, that fallen angels CAN act like ufo aliens, convincingly. The Great Falling Away is religious people casting off their respective religions...believing them obsolete now that the "extra terrestrial scientists" have landed, who prove by citing not only the Bible, but all the other "holy Books" in the world, that they have been here repeatedly, before.

It will devastate all not prepared for this.

Christ however, did warn us in both the OT and NT, if you will accept it.
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« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2011, 08:52:33 AM »

Alfred, are you OK? Sad

Sure...but its impossible to conduct conversation this way...after posting I always want to make changes...but the post vanishes into moderation...I was hoping that ended by now.

I trust all is well with you.

I've redone the opening paragraphs:

The Strong Delusion is extraterrestrial Designers seeded our belief in God

And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2Th 2:11-12 NKJ)

What precisely will the strong delusion lie propose? That Extraterrestrial scientists intelligently designed life on this planet and seeded belief in God. They will cite the explosion of life in the Cambrian fossils as their doing. Ancient history and holy books which record their visitations and technology are cited to "prove" they gave us God and belief in the human soul. Archaeological sites like Puma Punku seem to confirm past visitations. Added to this a verifiable UFO landing and universal "contactee phenomena" breaking out among even the most skeptical and you have the makings of a Great Falling Away from belief in God.

The extraterrestrial argument is a false dilemma, Although God's angels use technology ( "The Spaceships of the Prophet Ezekiel",J.F. Blumrich),  it does not follow their message was not from God precisely as the Bible says it is.

For more on angels, their technology and the nature of reality itself, their Teleios and our Meros:

http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?35156-The-wings-of-the-Great-Eagle-Rev-12-14-is-power-from-the-kingdoms-of-Babylon&p=1168031#poststop
http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?35156-The-wings-of-the-Great-Eagle-Rev-12-14-is-power-from-the-kingdoms-of-Babylon&p=1149451#poststop

http://forums.carm.org/vbb/showthread.php?35156-The-wings-of-the-Great-Eagle-Rev-12-14-is-power-from-the-kingdoms-of-Babylon&p=1169646#poststop


The following summarizes the rapid fire events that will rapidly come to pass once the final eschatological week has begun.

A worldwide falling away from traditional beliefs in Deity must come first, so the "man of sin" can rise up in the Temple of God, which is the Church.
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« Reply #21 on: January 23, 2011, 11:14:13 AM »

I miss dattaswami.
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« Reply #22 on: January 23, 2011, 11:38:36 AM »

I miss dattaswami.

I think he takes the weekends off. You know, sort of a "and He rested on the 7th day" type of thing. But the population is significantly larger now, so he needs an extra day of rest.
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« Reply #23 on: January 23, 2011, 02:47:21 PM »

"You ask why we must cleanse the xenos. I will tell you.
The filth of the alien and the witch must be exterminated to preserve the purity of the Human race,
lest we degenerate into abomination."

+++ Witch Hunter Tyrus at the Conclave of Vera +++



Inquisitor Tyrus

Text and image copyright of Games Workshop Limited (www.games-workshop.com)

Sorry, I just couldn't resist posting this. Bonus points to the nerd that understands the joke.  Cheesy

Is this a joke about Scientology?
Sorry no bonus points today. Inquisitor Tyrus is a fictive person from the background stories to the Warhammer 40.000 tabletop game (and the spinoff computer, roleplaying, and board games).

What Alfred is posting is not completely insane though. I would imagine that contact with technologically advanced extraterrestrials would lead to a general drop in religious adherence worldwide. I think it would be damaging to the Church. However, claiming that aliens actually will make contact for certain, and that this is prophesied in holy scripture, is where the posts start to sound insane.
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« Reply #24 on: January 23, 2011, 06:29:54 PM »

Quote
What Alfred is posting is not completely insane though. I would imagine that contact with technologically advanced extraterrestrials would lead to a general drop in religious adherence worldwide. I think it would be damaging to the Church. However, claiming that aliens actually will make contact for certain, and that this is prophesied in holy scripture, is where the posts start to sound insane.
I would agree. When we state that we know for sure that this will happen in this fashion, we are simply mistaken. I do agree that much of the UFO phenomenon is probably demonic. I have heard, and personally believe it as well, that in the end of days the Nephilim will return. Are there any patristic quotes about the Return of the Nephilim? Christ said that as were the days of Noah, so also will it be in the end.
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« Reply #25 on: January 23, 2011, 07:51:11 PM »

Come to think of it... how would the aliens fool the believers that hold to "We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible."

I can imagine the exchange of messages:

<Klaatu> We come in peace! p.s. also, we made you.
<Bob> Cool. Who made you then?
<Klaatu> uhm... chance?
<Barada> No, we are intelligently designed.
<Nikto> No way, there is no proof of the existence of an intelligent designer.
<Bob> This discussion sounds familiar somehow.

I'm not sure the Aliens would bring much new stuff to the discussion, even if it were true that they had made us.

Also, bonus points for the nerd that can name the movie I so subtly referenced.
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« Reply #26 on: January 23, 2011, 08:00:52 PM »

Come to think of it... how would the aliens fool the believers that hold to "We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible."

I can imagine the exchange of messages:

<Klaatu> We come in peace! p.s. also, we made you.
<Bob> Cool. Who made you then?
<Klaatu> uhm... chance?
<Barada> No, we are intelligently designed.
<Nikto> No way, there is no proof of the existence of an intelligent designer.
<Bob> This discussion sounds familiar somehow.

I'm not sure the Aliens would bring much new stuff to the discussion, even if it were true that they had made us.

Also, bonus points for the nerd that can name the movie I so subtly referenced.
The Day the Earth Stood Still
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« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2011, 08:08:04 PM »

The Day the Earth Stood Still

Correct!  Grin Grin

The Day the Earth Stood Still (from 1951)

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« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2011, 08:15:58 PM »

The Day the Earth Stood Still

Correct!  Grin Grin

Army of Darkness!  I know that this movie references aforementioned movie, but the presence of Bruce Campbell in all his Sam Raimi directed awesomeness renders the former movie as obsolete as a librarian!

PS This topic of this thread sounds suspiciously close to a "Christian fiction" book (oh, wow, just checked Amazon to make sure the title was correct and it has become a series!) Nephilim that was published in the X-Files heyday.
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« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2011, 08:30:16 PM »

Army of Darkness!  I know that this movie references aforementioned movie, but the presence of Bruce Campbell in all his Sam Raimi directed awesomeness renders the former movie as obsolete as a librarian!
  Angry No.




Grin Army of Darkness just disappears in a great sea of good movies that makes reference to The Day the Earth Stood Still. Klaatu barada nikto is like a great meme from 1951 that is still copy-pasted today. Copy-pasting will never beat original content.
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« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2011, 11:54:18 PM »

Army of Darkness!  I know that this movie references aforementioned movie, but the presence of Bruce Campbell in all his Sam Raimi directed awesomeness renders the former movie as obsolete as a librarian!
  Angry No.




Grin Army of Darkness just disappears in a great sea of good movies that makes reference to The Day the Earth Stood Still. Klaatu barada nikto is like a great meme from 1951 that is still copy-pasted today. Copy-pasting will never beat original content.

Well, yeah, but you gotta admit I one-upped the nerd quotient with a stealth Twilight Zone reference.
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« Reply #31 on: January 24, 2011, 06:53:57 AM »

Well, yeah, but you gotta admit I one-upped the nerd quotient with a stealth Twilight Zone reference.
  Grin I'm getting out-nerded.
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« Reply #32 on: January 24, 2011, 09:12:01 AM »

Its clear some of you misunderstand my point, so I've revised the opening paragraph to be more clear:

The argument for extraterrestrials is a false dilemma, Although God's angels use technology ( "The Spaceships of the Prophet Ezekiel",J.F. Blumrich),  it does not follow their message was not from God precisely as the Bible says it is, BECAUSE Scripture reveals they use technology, it was we who failed to interpret the data correctly.

The fundamental premise of the big lie is extraterrestrial aliens exist apart from God---They do not.
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« Reply #33 on: January 24, 2011, 10:00:53 AM »

So you're saying that, while Christians tend to view aliens as godless or destroyers of Christianity, they could be messengers from God?

I admit it's an intriguing idea, but I don't know why that would be necessary since God already has angels. But I suppose to some Christians UFOs and aliens are more realistic than angels.

Maybe we can get Monastery Icons to sell icons of E.T. (the saintliest alien), just incase. Tongue
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« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2011, 10:57:31 AM »

Its clear some of you misunderstand my point, so I've revised the opening paragraph to be more clear:

The argument for extraterrestrials is a false dilemma, Although God's angels use technology ( "The Spaceships of the Prophet Ezekiel",J.F. Blumrich),  it does not follow their message was not from God precisely as the Bible says it is, BECAUSE Scripture reveals they use technology, it was we who failed to interpret the data correctly.

The fundamental premise of the big lie is extraterrestrial aliens exist apart from God---They do not.

Are you quoting Blumrich's interpretation of Scripture and calling it authoritative?
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« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2011, 12:04:50 PM »

Isn't it also possible that God created life throughout the universe, and extraterrestrial aliens are just fellow sinners?
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« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2011, 12:12:06 PM »

Quote
What Alfred is posting is not completely insane though. I would imagine that contact with technologically advanced extraterrestrials would lead to a general drop in religious adherence worldwide. I think it would be damaging to the Church. However, claiming that aliens actually will make contact for certain, and that this is prophesied in holy scripture, is where the posts start to sound insane.
I would agree. When we state that we know for sure that this will happen in this fashion, we are simply mistaken. I do agree that much of the UFO phenomenon is probably demonic. I have heard, and personally believe it as well, that in the end of days the Nephilim will return. Are there any patristic quotes about the Return of the Nephilim? Christ said that as were the days of Noah, so also will it be in the end.
Hello?
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« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2011, 01:16:14 PM »

Hallowed are the Ori!!!
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« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2011, 04:11:48 PM »

Hallowed are the Ori!!!
Wait, doesn't Ba'al get a say in all this business?



After all, he's mentioned in the Bible.
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« Reply #39 on: January 24, 2011, 07:18:10 PM »

Didn't Seraphim Rose have a similar idea?
You mean Fr. Seraphim Rose?

You mean Fr. Seraphim of Platina?
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« Reply #40 on: January 24, 2011, 07:19:18 PM »

Hallowed are the Ori!!!
Wait, doesn't Ba'al get a say in all this business?



After all, he's mentioned in the Bible.

There is a special place in hell for all of us who actually sat through all 10 seasons.

Lord have mercy!
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« Reply #41 on: January 24, 2011, 07:54:02 PM »

The fundamental premise of the big lie is extraterrestrial aliens exist apart from God---They do not.
Grin The nicene creed already addresses this; God the father is the creator of all that is visible and invisible. It does not matter if the hypothetical aliens are angels, fallen angels or mortal beings, they still have the same origin as the rest of the universe.

When it comes to matters of religion I think it is wiser to study scripture in order to understand the past rather than to predict the future. The mysteries of the Christian religion is not contained in predictions of what will happen in the future. The incarnation and the resurrection are the true mysteries of our religion.
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« Reply #42 on: January 24, 2011, 08:00:19 PM »

Alfred, are you OK? Sad

Surely this rhetorical?
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« Reply #43 on: January 24, 2011, 08:13:16 PM »

Quote
What Alfred is posting is not completely insane though. I would imagine that contact with technologically advanced extraterrestrials would lead to a general drop in religious adherence worldwide. I think it would be damaging to the Church. However, claiming that aliens actually will make contact for certain, and that this is prophesied in holy scripture, is where the posts start to sound insane.
I would agree. When we state that we know for sure that this will happen in this fashion, we are simply mistaken. I do agree that much of the UFO phenomenon is probably demonic. I have heard, and personally believe it as well, that in the end of days the Nephilim will return. Are there any patristic quotes about the Return of the Nephilim? Christ said that as were the days of Noah, so also will it be in the end.
Hello?
Ok, something witty/nerdy...lol/lmao/rofl/ laugh Grin Wink Smiley Tongue Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
Now, does anyone know of any patristic quotes that deal with the Nephilim returning?
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« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2011, 01:08:26 AM »

Isn't it also possible that God created life throughout the universe, and extraterrestrial aliens are just fellow sinners?

There are no extra terrestrial aliens, there are only angels, fallen and unfallen, and both use technology.

These fallen angels land on earth as ufo aliens, claiming they seeded God and belief in a human soul.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
 (Rev 12:7-9 KJV)


The falling away comes first so that the Antichrist can rise, and he won't be representing former religions, such as Christianity, he is the  Christ of a new god, a god of forces, a new god unknown to mankind, and he will claim its power makes him God:

3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. (2Th 2:3-4 NKJ)

36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done.
37 Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.
38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.
39 Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge and increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain. (Dan 11:36-39 KJV)

This is where alien ufos back the new world religion with their technology, they are the "god of forces".

At the beginning of the final eschatological week, there is war in heaven and Satan and crew are cast out. Then the Antichrist rises and for the first part of the week he makes a covenant with all the religions of the world, Babylon the Great, who agree to follow him because he is doing miracles, and apparently the alien ufos are with him.

That is when Babylon falls into total apostasy from God, to profess faith in the Antichrist as God, and they all become "contactees," having familiar spirits, communing with demons, the false prophets of the antichrist spirits

KJV 1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; (1Ti 4:1 KJV)

KJV 1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. (1Jo 4:1 KJV)

It is because Babylon has fallen and become the house of demons:

2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird. (Rev 18:2 KJV)


So the great delusion is the message the "god of forces" will bring with him, when Satan's stars (fallen angels) are cast out of heaven, and land on earth---as ufo aliens claiming to be a race of scientists who seeded life on earth and gave it its belief in God and the human soul.

THAT is the falling away that affects Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism etc...they all see the aliens, and believe the earths religions are all obsolete...all sacrifice and offering to God ceases...the entire earth promises to follow the new gods whom their fathers did not know, the god of forces...the ufo aliens and their representative, the Antichrist, a human/angel hybrid possessed by the Devil.

They seek to change "times and laws", everything:

 25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. (Dan 7:25 KJV)

But then the True God, jealous for His Name, will take them down:

26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
 27 And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him. (Dan 7:26-27 KJV)
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« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2011, 11:48:13 AM »

Hallowed are the Ori!!!
Wait, doesn't Ba'al get a say in all this business?



After all, he's mentioned in the Bible.

LOL! If any Goa'uld would be jealous of the Ori it definitely would Ba'al! Cheesy

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« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2011, 11:51:20 AM »

Hallowed are the Ori!!!
Wait, doesn't Ba'al get a say in all this business?



After all, he's mentioned in the Bible.

There is a special place in hell for all of us who actually sat through all 10 seasons.

Lord have mercy!
Tongue Tongue Tongue Tongue Tongue Tongue

Where is Daniel Jackson when you need him?

I liked all 10 seasons, so there! Cheesy

Hallowed are the Ori!




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« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2011, 12:02:38 PM »

Isn't it also possible that God created life throughout the universe, and extraterrestrial aliens are just fellow sinners?

There are no extra terrestrial aliens, there are only angels, fallen and unfallen, and both use technology.


And you know this with such certainty, how? And no, you can't say "because the Bible tells me so" since that's the same argument human beings used to explain why other human beings were creatures of Satan as well.



Quote

The falling away comes first so that the Antichrist can rise, and he won't be representing former religions, such as Christianity, he is the  Christ of a new god, a god of forces, a new god unknown to mankind, and he will claim its power makes him God:


This is actually what Hal Lindsey has adopted in recent years. Don't you find it odd that ANY Orthodox Christian would agree with the guy who wrote The Late Great Planet Earth?

Besides, even if what you say IS true, I think most of us scifi fans are going to be safe since Stargate has prepared us for the day when the Goa'uld return via Ezekiel's wheel and try to enslave us by claiming to be gods! So I'm pretty confident when Apophis or the Ori come to trick us, at least us SG1 fans won't be deceived. Thank you Daniel Jackson! Smiley

Okay enough silliness, but I can't help it, you've brought out the scifi geek in me!


I actually do find your hypothesis fascinating, I mean I love all this kind of stuff, Chariots of the gods, and all those books. Very cool stuff. I don't think it's true, but I love talking about it. I even wrote a story about this stuff one time, back in my Protestant days, but I also think if there are aliens (and there probably are) it's un-Christian to just assume they are instruments of Satan; like I said, that's what Christians said about the Native people of the new world too, of course we now know better.

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« Reply #48 on: January 25, 2011, 12:22:45 PM »

Ok, do I need to be a jerk before anyone will answer a question of mine? I am seriously considering leaving this forum completely. I ask questions, and am completely ignored time and again. I realize that this thread is ridiculous, but I did have a real question...Why do I have to fight to have a real conversation? Would you all prefer if I called myself Swami? Would that ilicite more of a response? It seems likely that it would.
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« Reply #49 on: January 25, 2011, 12:41:02 PM »

Ok, do I need to be a jerk before anyone will answer a question of mine? I am seriously considering leaving this forum completely. I ask questions, and am completely ignored time and again. I realize that this thread is ridiculous, but I did have a real question...Why do I have to fight to have a real conversation? Would you all prefer if I called myself Swami? Would that ilicite more of a response? It seems likely that it would.

Every data point since the dawn of Usenet shows that such threats on internet discussions groups, boards, etc. is symptomatic of someone who never will leave.

Also, such comments usually are met by further ignoring.

YMMV.
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« Reply #50 on: January 25, 2011, 12:44:37 PM »

Every data point since the dawn of Usenet shows that such threats on internet discussions groups, boards, etc. is symptomatic of someone who never will leave.

Also, such comments usually are met by further ignoring.

YMMV.
Thanks for understanding. Maybe an answer to my question would be more useful?
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« Reply #51 on: January 25, 2011, 01:11:17 PM »

Quote
What Alfred is posting is not completely insane though. I would imagine that contact with technologically advanced extraterrestrials would lead to a general drop in religious adherence worldwide. I think it would be damaging to the Church. However, claiming that aliens actually will make contact for certain, and that this is prophesied in holy scripture, is where the posts start to sound insane.
I would agree. When we state that we know for sure that this will happen in this fashion, we are simply mistaken. I do agree that much of the UFO phenomenon is probably demonic. I have heard, and personally believe it as well, that in the end of days the Nephilim will return. Are there any patristic quotes about the Return of the Nephilim? Christ said that as were the days of Noah, so also will it be in the end.
Hello?
Ok, something witty/nerdy...lol/lmao/rofl/ laugh Grin Wink Smiley Tongue Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin
Now, does anyone know of any patristic quotes that deal with the Nephilim returning?


This isn't the best forum for discussing patristics. Here's a thread over at Monachos.net about the Nephilim: http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?3591-Nephilim-(Genesis-6.4)-patristic-commentary-requested&highlight=nephilim

You might want to put your question there.
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« Reply #52 on: January 25, 2011, 01:21:55 PM »

Thanks for the kind reply. It's sad that I have to seek out another forum for help...
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« Reply #53 on: January 25, 2011, 01:26:04 PM »

Thanks for the kind reply. It's sad that I have to seek out another forum for help...

There is a thread here on the Nephilim: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=19063.0 (I came across it trying to search out an answer to your question).  However, as specifically applies to your question regarding a return of the Nephilim in the end times I have yet to find anything.
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« Reply #54 on: January 25, 2011, 01:31:06 PM »

Isn't it also possible that God created life throughout the universe, and extraterrestrial aliens are just fellow sinners?

There are no extra terrestrial aliens, there are only angels, fallen and unfallen, and both use technology.


And you know this with such certainty, how? And no, you can't say "because the Bible tells me so" since that's the same argument human beings used to explain why other human beings were creatures of Satan as well.



Quote

The falling away comes first so that the Antichrist can rise, and he won't be representing former religions, such as Christianity, he is the  Christ of a new god, a god of forces, a new god unknown to mankind, and he will claim its power makes him God:


This is actually what Hal Lindsey has adopted in recent years. Don't you find it odd that ANY Orthodox Christian would agree with the guy who wrote The Late Great Planet Earth?

Besides, even if what you say IS true, I think most of us scifi fans are going to be safe since Stargate has prepared us for the day when the Goa'uld return via Ezekiel's wheel and try to enslave us by claiming to be gods! So I'm pretty confident when Apophis or the Ori come to trick us, at least us SG1 fans won't be deceived. Thank you Daniel Jackson! Smiley

Okay enough silliness, but I can't help it, you've brought out the scifi geek in me!


I actually do find your hypothesis fascinating, I mean I love all this kind of stuff, Chariots of the gods, and all those books. Very cool stuff. I don't think it's true, but I love talking about it. I even wrote a story about this stuff one time, back in my Protestant days, but I also think if there are aliens (and there probably are) it's un-Christian to just assume they are instruments of Satan; like I said, that's what Christians said about the Native people of the new world too, of course we now know better.



Because my posts are moderated, Its hard to carry on a discussion.

My hypothesis is not bizarre...hopefully the following proves that...as you get towards the end, it discusses heaven and earth, the scriptural teaching about it, and the nature of angels.

I repeat, I do NOT believe ufo aliens exist...I believe fallen angels who will pretend to be ufo aliens, exist.

peace

Someone will say "this is Bizarre."

But should I accept the usual view in the commentaries, that the last week of the 70 weeks, occurs centuries later, is that less bizarre?

I can't agree with the commentaries on the seventy weeks, the plain reading is these are 70 contiguous weeks segments of which are characterized by unique events.

24 Seventy weeks are determined  (נֶחְתַּךְ   2852) upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy. (Dan 9:24 KJV)


The 70 weeks are contiguous as these were "cut out" as a specific length of time, that is how they were "determined." They weren't "cut out" separately or in separate pieces.


 26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: (Dan 9:26 KJV)

AFTER the 62 weeks, which is after the 7 = 70 weeks.

"And After", conjunctive preposition, its a segment AFTER those just listed.


The Messiah is cut off in the Seventieth week ("after" 7+62) and His Death ushered in the New Covenant which fulfilled all the goals listed in v. 24, "To finish the transgression (Rom 4:15), To make an end of sins (Rom 6:22; Heb 9:26)), To make reconciliation for iniquity (2 Cor 5:18), To bring in everlasting righteousness (Rom 3:21f), To seal up vision and prophecy (Luk 16:16; Mat. 5:17; Acts 10:43), And to anoint the Most Holy (Luk 4:18 cp Joh. 2:18ff)." 

Therefore its fitting Christ have the entire 70th week all to Himself.


Verse division is not inspired, verse 26 should have ended with the advent of the New Covenant in Christ's blood.

So Dan 9:26a has the Messiah fulfilling all the goals of Dan 9:24 with His death. 26b refers to the Titus destroying the Temple in AD 70, and 26c the continuing desolation that culminated in the Jews being driven out of Palestine by Hadrian about AD 132. 
 
While Dan 9:27 can be rendered with the personal pronoun "he" making it refer to the "prince who is to come," it is NOT required:

LXT  Daniel 9:27 καὶ δυναστεύσει ἡ διαθήκη εἰς πολλούς  (Dan 9:27 LXT)
LXE  Daniel 9:27 And one week shall establish the covenant with many: and in the midst of the week my sacrifice and drink-offering shall be taken away: and on the temple shall be the abomination of desolations; and at the end of time an end shall be put to the desolation. (Dan 9:27 LXE)


BBE  Daniel 9:27 And a strong order will be sent out against the great number for one week; and so for half of the week the offering and the meal offering will come to an end; and in its place will be an unclean thing causing fear; till the destruction which has been fixed is let loose on him who has made waste. (Dan 9:27 BBE)

Grammatically the pronoun could be left out.

The "prophetic telescoping" is NOT with the Temple in Jerusalem and a rebuilt Temple in the end time, because Gabriel separates 70 AD and the end time, inserting the "times of the Gentiles":
 
 
"And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Luk 21:24 NKJ) 

So we must look for a time period that contains the identifying  3 1/2 years, and that occurs after the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled:
 
NKJ Daniel 12:7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished. 

NKJ  Revelation 12:6 Then the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, that they should feed her there one thousand two hundred and sixty days (Rev 12:6 NKJ)


Critically speaking, this view is parsimonous, conforming to the details of the text, while the commentaries, by separating the weeks, make it impossible the destruction of the temple, and Christ's advent, be in the same week.

Therefore I might characterize the "accepted views" on this, BIZARRE.



Gabriel keeps talking however, he continues prophesying about what happens after the 70 weeks, that the Temple will be destroyed, and later, the Jews led captive into all the nations.

Therefore the week in the book of Revelation, is NOT part of the 70 weeks, and it can be separated from them by thousands of years.

But do the commentaries exegete this critically...no, they all put the 70th week in the end time.

AND THAT IS BIZARRE, as Daniel's usage of weeks doesn't allow it:

If we study Daniel's use of "weeks" (7620 שָׁבוּעַ, lit., "sevens"), he clearly means contiguous weeks. 

"Seven weeks" and "threescore and two weeks" are misleading if they don't refer to two units of time, one totaling 7 adjoining weeks, the other also 62 contiguous weeks. 
 

Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks(7620), and threescore and two weeks(7620): the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times. (KJV) 


Here we see one week divided into segments where different events occur, but not implying these are separate in a group of more than one literal week: 

Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week(7620): and in the midst of the week(7620) he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate. (KJV) 

 
Daniels' mourning occurs in three weeks total, not three divided weeks in a longer period of time. 

Dan 10:2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks(7620). (KJV) 

Dan 10:3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks(7620) were fulfilled. (KJV) 


Its impossible we divide these "weeks", they  are contiguous as seen by Daniels' usage of "weeks."


It is expected Bible prophecy become clearer as we approach its fulfillment...

I submit to you, my interpretation fits scripture perfectly, and while it is different, its certainly no more BIZARRE than what went before it.


To ignore Satan's work in the world, the "mystery (secret) of lawlessness" inspiring rebellion against God's Word of truth, via spiritism (charismania, new age, ufo), to believe THOSE events are not predicted in God's Word of truth, is "bizarre", in contrast to my sound exposition of these things.


Yes, to people our age, they seem bizarre, but 80% of the public now believes there is something to UFOs...those of us who accept the Bible, are now the "fringe."


It should be recalled how inconsistent you are labeling this bizzare, when you fully accept angels as a race of beings who are not "terrestrial."

I argue the church has misunderstood the scriptures about angels, she has accepted incorrect Greek philosophical views about reality, that prevent her from seeing this correctly.

Scripture says there are two realms of existence, one is the MEROS (partial), the other the TELEIOS (complete) 1 Cor 13:10. These are alternate realities....and the inhabitants of both are physical...otherwise how could Jesus sit on His throne, physically, or Moses and Elijah and Enoch, be there also?

Consider the resurrection appearances of Christ, He enters and leaves our MEROS, at will:
[/i]

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
 10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
 11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. (Act 1:9-11 KJV)

KJV  John 20:19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
 (Joh 20:19 KJV)

Christ didn't ooze through the locked door or walls like a spirit, He "stood in the midst", that is, appeared in our MEROS, physically.

The transfiguration wasn't a dream, it was a coming of the TELEIOS with power, intersecting our MEROS:

 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.
 2 And after six days Jesus taketh with him Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them.
 3 And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them.
 4 And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. (Mar 9:1-4 KJV)


Clearly the idea angels are spirits (sometimes) in our realm, does not prevent they are physical in their realm and can be so in ours (Gen c. 18-19)...to say otherwise is to deny the teaching of scripture.

Therefore, that fallen angels might pretend to be ufo aliens, and proclaim God doesn't exist, is not a bizarre concept...in fact, given the data, it would be bizarre he not do it, given how well that would work for his Antichrist and his new religion...make all previous religions, obsolete as it were, in the minds of the unsaved.

But the elect won't be deceived.

KJV  Matthew 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
 (Mat 24:24 KJV)
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« Reply #55 on: January 25, 2011, 01:34:42 PM »

Its clear some of you misunderstand my point, so I've revised the opening paragraph to be more clear:

The argument for extraterrestrials is a false dilemma, Although God's angels use technology ( "The Spaceships of the Prophet Ezekiel",J.F. Blumrich),  it does not follow their message was not from God precisely as the Bible says it is, BECAUSE Scripture reveals they use technology, it was we who failed to interpret the data correctly.

The fundamental premise of the big lie is extraterrestrial aliens exist apart from God---They do not.


Okay..that's a reasonable observation.. The more interesting question is whether or not they are creatures from other planets or are they from a different dimension.. I tend to think the latter.

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« Reply #56 on: January 25, 2011, 02:11:58 PM »

Thanks for the kind reply. It's sad that I have to seek out another forum for help...

There is a thread here on the Nephilim: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=19063.0 (I came across it trying to search out an answer to your question).  However, as specifically applies to your question regarding a return of the Nephilim in the end times I have yet to find anything.
Thanks for the info. You are correct that it doesn't specifically address the end of days Nephilim issue. If Christ said that the end of days would be like the days of Noah, and we had weird angel/human hybrids running around, is it too much to suggest that it will happen again?
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« Reply #57 on: January 25, 2011, 02:33:55 PM »

Because my posts are moderated, Its hard to carry on a discussion.

Maybe if your posts were moderate, they chance of discussion might be possible.
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« Reply #58 on: January 25, 2011, 02:57:33 PM »

Thanks for the kind reply. It's sad that I have to seek out another forum for help...

There is a thread here on the Nephilim: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=19063.0 (I came across it trying to search out an answer to your question).  However, as specifically applies to your question regarding a return of the Nephilim in the end times I have yet to find anything.
Thanks for the info. You are correct that it doesn't specifically address the end of days Nephilim issue. If Christ said that the end of days would be like the days of Noah, and we had weird angel/human hybrids running around, is it too much to suggest that it will happen again?

I think the reason that this isn't addressed too much in Patristic thought is because the identity of the elohim in the Genesis passage has cause for debate.  Throughout the history of the passage itself there have been two differing interpretations as to who the elohim in this passage are: the angels or the sons of Seth.  The link from monachos that Iconodule supplied shows in one of the posts that while a number of the early Fathers did think that the elohim were angels two of the most influential (St Augustine for the West and St John Chrysostom for the East) believed in the sons of Seth theory.

Regarding Christ's statement on the end days, He makes no reference to the nephilim, but He does refer rather specifically to other things that were going on in Noah's day: "They were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, til the day Noah entered the ark." 
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« Reply #59 on: January 25, 2011, 03:07:51 PM »

In my mind there is no other way of interpreting the passage except the angel version. I am aware of the differing views, just wondering why Christ would bring up Noah, if not alluding in some way to this reality. There are multiple UFO cases, some covered in Fr Seraphim's book, of aliens mating with women. Sounds pretty close to the Nephilim scenario.
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« Reply #60 on: January 25, 2011, 03:18:31 PM »

In my mind there is no other way of interpreting the passage except the angel version. I am aware of the differing views, just wondering why Christ would bring up Noah, if not alluding in some way to this reality.

Well, just off the top of my head, in the days of Noah people were being called to repentance and offered the salvation of shelter within the Ark.  They ignored this and went on with daily life, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, just like the fool in Christ's other illustration ("Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we might die".).  That is, they put the processes of living above any regard for their actual lives.

In our wicked end days (the same end days inhabited by Christians throughout the history of the Church) we have people who are being called to repentance and offered the salvation of shelter within the ark of the Church.  They ignore this and go on with daily life, eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.

Note that in a lot of Christ's speeches on the end of days He refers not to any wildly fantastic signs (seas boiling, skies falling, the moon flying out of orbit, etc) but rather a continuation of daily life: wars and rumors of wars, famine and plenty, people working in fields, etc.
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« Reply #61 on: January 25, 2011, 03:38:01 PM »

I would agree with what you have said. There are fantastic happenings mixed with the mundane. I always thought that, even though there are differing opinions about Genesis 6:4, that the majority held the angelic view. Am I incorrect? I would imagine that belief in the return of the Nephilim would not be unOrthodox? I know that there are a lot of Protestants that espouse the return of the Nephilim, although that is not always a problem. They are not wrong on all things theological. Just most.
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« Reply #62 on: January 25, 2011, 04:29:55 PM »

I would agree with what you have said. There are fantastic happenings mixed with the mundane. I always thought that, even though there are differing opinions about Genesis 6:4, that the majority held the angelic view. Am I incorrect? I would imagine that belief in the return of the Nephilim would not be unOrthodox? I know that there are a lot of Protestants that espouse the return of the Nephilim, although that is not always a problem. They are not wrong on all things theological. Just most.


Personally, I think trying to nail down too much of what will happen in the "final days" is a fool's errand.  We have very little knowledge to go on, beyond prophesies of a "great apostasy", anti-Christ after anti-Christ til one final ultimate Antichrist, and the uprising of Gog and Magog.  I believe there's good reason that there isn't much specificity given.

As for the majority view on the Nephilim, according to the thread on the other forum that Iconodule linked there was a tally of Patristic references and it did seem that the majority fell on the angel side, but there were no specific references, so I can't verify this on my own without much study (and I hate studying with specific results in mind, it might color my interpretation).

Personally, I like the idea of the angelic interpretation, it appeals to the more mythic impulses of my mind and makes sense of the whole "giants" translation.  I've written page after page of fiction incorporating this idea (fantasy where the Nephilim were the sons and daughters of faerie-human hybrids, horror where the genesis of vampires was this event, and super-hero comic books where the whole possibility of fantastic powers is introduced into the human genome by this event).  But my like or dislike of the notion is one thing, I think within the whole framework of Christianity and world history it's just not that important.  It's not dogma, it's a playful theory that becomes dangerous if too much importance is given to it, much like debating the origins of Melchizedek.

Now, as all this regards alien activity, well, I think it's possible that ufo's and such could be demonic influence, but it's just as likely that they are the symptom of an all-too human tendency to mythologize the world around us where our current mythology demands a "rational and scientific" foundation.  Taking Fr Seraphim Rose into account, I have read his book (IIRC you're referring to Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future).  While I highly respect his life and work I tend to take this particular book with a grain of salt as he ascribes much power to "demonic activity" in certain areas where I know that the only "demonic activity" that actually goes on is the demon whispering in the ear of the charlatan to pass off mere tricks and illusions as magical powers.
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« Reply #63 on: January 25, 2011, 04:54:53 PM »

Actually, some aliens are our enemies.

And some aliens are the Allies of Humanity!

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« Reply #64 on: January 25, 2011, 05:23:01 PM »

Actually, some aliens are our enemies.

And some aliens are the Allies of Humanity!

Choose this day whom you will serve.

On that note, I believe the immortal words of Dr Peter Venkman should be remembered: "...and that is the whole problem with aliens is you just can't trust them. Occasionally you meet a nice once: Star Man, E.T... But usually they turn out to be some kind of big lizard!"
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« Reply #65 on: January 25, 2011, 05:38:43 PM »

Thanks for the kind reply. It's sad that I have to seek out another forum for help...

Sorry you didn't get any response. I think part of it was that your question was buried in a thread about UFOs. Smiley  I think perhaps because of the nature of this thread many people never even saw it.

Quote
I have heard, and personally believe it as well, that in the end of days the Nephilim will return. Are there any patristic quotes about the Return of the Nephilim? Christ said that as were the days of Noah, so also will it be in the end.

I've never heard anything about a "return of the Nephilim", however Wikipedia has this:

From Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nephilim

Quote
Likewise, a long-held view among some Christians is that the "sons of God" who fathered the Nephilim spoken of in the text, were in fact the formerly righteous descendants of Seth who rebelled, while the "daughters of men" were the unrighteous descendants of Cain, and the Nephilim the offspring of their union.[36] This view dates to at least the 3rd century AD, with references throughout the Clementine literature[37], as well as in Sextus Julius Africanus,[38], Ephrem the Syrian[39] and others (see below, "In other texts"). Holders of this view[40] have looked for support in Jesus' statement that "in the days before the flood they (humans) were marrying and giving in marriage"[41]

Some individuals and groups, including St. Augustine, John Chrysostom, and John Calvin, take the view of Genesis 6:2 that the "Angels" who fathered the Nephilim referred to certain human males from the lineage of Seth, who were called sons of God probably in reference to their being formerly in a covenantal relationship with Yahweh (cf. Deuteronomy 14:1; 32:5); according to these sources, these men had begun to pursue bodily interests, and so took wives of the daughters of men, e.g., those who were descended from Cain or from any people who did not worship God.

So according to some of the Church fathers the Nephilim are simply "unrighteous" human beings. Not angel/human hybrids (exactly how would a pure spirit being have sex with a female human exactly???) Then that raises the question, uh, angels have the power to create like God? Well then, if so, they are "gods" then aren't they? Not just created beings, but something that through their own will have the power to create. That is by my definition a god. Not the most High God, but a god none the less. Which is actually what the text probably meant when it was written. That these beings were gods who had sex with female humans giving birth to the Nephilim, kind of like how the cyclops came into existence in greek mythology. If you want to discuss the what the "text" means and what the author of the text likely , that's kind of a different topic because we'd be delving into ancient Israelite Polytheism. the text itself says "sons of God" (can't recall which word is used for "God" probably some form of El) it's explicitly saying these "sons" are like the sons of other gods, gods themselves. It says NOTHING at all about angels or messengers, or spiritual beings, it says "sons of god" What does the text mean? Does it mean angels? If so why should we think that? it could also mean humans since we are in fact God's children which seems acceptable to me.

If you want to assume, as the book of Enoch and Jude does that it does mean angels, well don't worry these Nephilim are locked up in Tartarus like Enoch and 1st Peter says. (or is it 2nd Peter?) Smiley

One other link is here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_God


One point that article makes is that Jesus made a specific point in saying that angels did not "marry nor are given in marriages", was he making the point that they could not reproduce? I personally find that likely. I DO think the author of this story in Genesis DID mythologize whatever it is he is talking about . . . but who knows? Maybe he didn't have anything in mind and was just writing down a story that had become sacred by the time he recorded and it's original meaning had long been forgotten.

These are fascinating topics actually, however I think it's important for us to remember it is all just speculation. Any interpretation is possible, some are more probable than others but the Church has never given any definitive view on this subject so as long as we don't dogmatize this, it could make for an interesting discussion.



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« Reply #66 on: January 25, 2011, 07:14:53 PM »

Quote
If you want to assume, as the book of Enoch and Jude does that it does mean angels, well don't worry these Nephilim are locked up in Tartarus like Enoch and 1st Peter says. (or is it 2nd Peter?)
I think it is actually the Fallen Angels that are bound in Tartarus. Not their offspring the Nephilim. I think that when Christ says we would be like the angels in heaven has a very specific meaning. Angels in heaven. Not fallen angels. Most of the religions of the world have a story/myth of something coming from above and mating with humans. Much like the flood accounts worldwide. Jude and others in the NT speak, IMO, of the angelic view. Why should this be any different in our day and time?

On the other end of the spectrum, you are correct that we should NOT attempt to delve too deeply into end times scenarios. Very pointless.
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« Reply #67 on: January 26, 2011, 11:40:13 AM »



On the other end of the spectrum, you are correct that we should NOT attempt to delve too deeply into end times scenarios. Very pointless.

Well, I'm not sure it's pointless. I think it's always good to broaden our own personal views, look at different interpretations and possibilities and then weigh these new possibilities with our old ones and see which seems most probably, likely, within a given theological tradition or framework. As we know though, questions like this are in the end speculation and must be kept in mind. If we hold an Enochic framework we are likely to take one over the other, but if we hold another theological framework then we might have another view. It's always fun to speculate, but as the Fathers say we need to be on guard to no delve to deep into things which really make little difference our personal theosis. It matters not either way, but it's still loads of fun and is a good exercise in learning and it might help people make sense of parts of the Bible that might not make sense in any other light.


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« Reply #68 on: January 26, 2011, 02:32:34 PM »

Thanks for the kind reply. It's sad that I have to seek out another forum for help...

There is a thread here on the Nephilim: http://www.orthodoxchristianity.net/forum/index.php?topic=19063.0 (I came across it trying to search out an answer to your question).  However, as specifically applies to your question regarding a return of the Nephilim in the end times I have yet to find anything.
Thanks for the info. You are correct that it doesn't specifically address the end of days Nephilim issue. If Christ said that the end of days would be like the days of Noah, and we had weird angel/human hybrids running around, is it too much to suggest that it will happen again?

I think the reason that this isn't addressed too much in Patristic thought is because the identity of the elohim in the Genesis passage has cause for debate.  Throughout the history of the passage itself there have been two differing interpretations as to who the elohim in this passage are: the angels or the sons of Seth.  The link from monachos that Iconodule supplied shows in one of the posts that while a number of the early Fathers did think that the elohim were angels two of the most influential (St Augustine for the West and St John Chrysostom for the East) believed in the sons of Seth theory.

Regarding Christ's statement on the end days, He makes no reference to the nephilim, but He does refer rather specifically to other things that were going on in Noah's day: "They were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, til the day Noah entered the ark." 


Some of the confusion is equating Nephilim (lxx, Giants >Greek myth Titans) with the offspring of the "sons of God." The Septuagint is preserving the truth, choosing the Greek word that communicates the idea of God's having sex with mankind, while Jewish apocryphal works got it wrong thinking the Nephilim were the children of these "gods".

NKJ  Genesis 6:1 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them,
 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.
 3 And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."
 4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
 5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
 7 So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."
 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
 9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.
 (Gen 6:1-9 NKJ)

The details of scripture are not to be generalized and made to fit apocryphal ideas of Nephilim as the children of the "sons of God", that is impossible as they are contemporaries:

"There were giants (gigas, נְפִילִים , ίγας) on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God"

Making them contemporaries don't communicate the idea they are offspring. They are a class of angel different than the "sons of God," these are the "sons of the Devil."

The Septuagint translates Nephilim as the Greek Titans or "giants" who had sexual relations with mankind, to distinguish these fallen angels from the "sons of God" who also  bore children. Confirming this, just as the Titans are imprisoned in Tartarus, so also Peter says the same (2 Pe 2:4).

That the Nephilim would sin is not news worthy, that the "sons of God" He sent to combat the Nephilim would instead succumb to the seductive charms of women, is.

This is why God is very angry at men, even more so than at the "sons of God", because the latter were sent to help, but mankind seduced them with their daughters.

As God gave man dominion over the earth (Gen 1:26), their joining Satan's quest to produce seed to fight God's Seed (Gen 3:15) made them particularly liable. Rather than join God's angels in fighting the evil, they joined with His enemy.

Noah was perfect in his generations, the image of God was not contaminated with the dna (image) of angels.

However, it is implied by Gen 6:9 and 6:5 that finding purely human beings was becoming difficult, and it is likely those who were saved with Noah, had angelic DNA and its from this remnant of contamination the giants appeared after the flood.

Scripture is very clear, no giants survived the flood, nor did their offspring. That is why scripture does not call the giants who appear after the flood, Nephilim. Num 14:33 does not contradict this:

33 "There we saw the giants (the descendants of Anak came from the giants); and we were like grasshoppers in our own sight, and so we were in their sight." (Num 13:33 NKJ)

The parenthetical comment is to explain their argument, they are exaggerating, claiming these Anak came from the Nephilim, and "we were like grasshoppers."

Caleb had effectively refuted their argument against obeying God in verse 30, that is why they now exaggerate calling these Nephilim. They lied.

Scripture is very clear, no Nephilim survived the flood:

22 All in whose nostrils was the breath of the spirit of life, all that was on the dry land, died. (Gen 7:22 NKJ)

BUT evidently angelic DNA survived among those who were saved with Noah, hence we read of later accounts of six fingered men and giants etc.

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« Reply #69 on: January 26, 2011, 03:28:42 PM »

So Anne Boleyn (who had six fingers on one hand) had angelic DNA?
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« Reply #70 on: January 26, 2011, 03:33:42 PM »

Well, everyone knows that the Reapers are simply going to invade the Milky Way and wipe out any and all advanced life. Thus sayeth the Commander Shepherd.
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« Reply #71 on: January 26, 2011, 07:58:01 PM »

Well, everyone knows that the Reapers are simply going to invade the Milky Way and wipe out any and all advanced life. Thus sayeth the Commander Shepherd.
Reapers!!!! No!!! Great show/movie. Smiley
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« Reply #72 on: January 26, 2011, 08:05:50 PM »

Seasons don't fear the Reaper. Nor do the wind, the sun, or the rain. We can be like they are. Come on, baby. Take my hand. Don't fear the Reaper.
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« Reply #73 on: January 26, 2011, 10:47:42 PM »

Seasons don't fear the Reaper. Nor do the wind, the sun, or the rain. We can be like they are. Come on, baby. Take my hand. Don't fear the Reaper.

Needs more cow bell.
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« Reply #74 on: January 26, 2011, 11:10:28 PM »

Seasons don't fear the Reaper. Nor do the wind, the sun, or the rain. We can be like they are. Come on, baby. Take my hand. Don't fear the Reaper.

Needs more cow bell.

Took the words right out of my mouth.

At least this thread is getting back to being entertaining again.

Over / Under on how many minutes a party ends once Alfred enters the room?

I am starting the line at 4.

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« Reply #75 on: January 26, 2011, 11:38:05 PM »

At least this thread is getting back to being entertaining again.
Yeah, why would we want anyone having a discussion, or asking questions? How boring!!! Let's just make every thread random postings???!!!! That way we never have to be serious, or bother with helping others!!!  Grin Grin Smiley Shocked Shocked Shocked Roll Eyes Tongue Lips Sealed Kiss Kiss Cry Kiss
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« Reply #76 on: January 27, 2011, 12:21:34 AM »

At least this thread is getting back to being entertaining again.
Yeah, why would we want anyone having a discussion, or asking questions? How boring!!! Let's just make every thread random postings???!!!! That way we never have to be serious, or bother with helping others!!!  Grin Grin Smiley Shocked Shocked Shocked Roll Eyes Tongue Lips Sealed Kiss Kiss Cry Kiss


I've heard better discussions had by a schizophrenic with themselves.
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« Reply #77 on: January 27, 2011, 04:11:22 AM »

So Anne Boleyn (who had six fingers on one hand) had angelic DNA?

Don't know...but  perhaps this did:

 6 Yet again there was war at Gath, where there was a man of great stature, with twenty-four fingers and toes, six on each hand and six on each foot; and he also was born to the giant. (1Ch 20:6 NKJ)

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« Reply #78 on: January 27, 2011, 04:11:22 AM »

Well, everyone knows that the Reapers are simply going to invade the Milky Way and wipe out any and all advanced life. Thus sayeth the Commander Shepherd.

Frankly, I pray I am wrong. A bona fide landing by ufo aliens, would devastate the faith of most, regardless what religion they now hold.

Such a landing would allow the Antichrist raise himself up above everything that was, till then, called God:

NKJ  2 Thessalonians 2:4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.
 (2Th 2:4 NKJ)

A ufo landing would so devastate the belief system of coreligionists, it would be like changing the very times and laws they once believed true:

NKJ  Daniel 7:25 He shall speak pompous words against the Most High, Shall persecute the saints of the Most High, And shall intend to change times and law. Then the saints shall be given into his hand For a time and times and half a time. (Dan 7:25 NKJ)

Such beings could order world wide persecution of Christians, where even one's own family would turn Christians in, for "stubbornly clinging to fairy tales about God"

NKJ  Revelation 13:10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
 (Rev 13:10 NKJ)

 21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
 22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
 (Mat 24:21-22 KJV)

I can only hope this is all wrong...and we all can have a laugh...


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« Reply #79 on: January 27, 2011, 10:18:45 AM »

Frankly, I pray I am wrong.
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« Reply #80 on: January 28, 2011, 05:22:12 AM »

Well, everyone knows that the Reapers are simply going to invade the Milky Way and wipe out any and all advanced life. Thus sayeth the Commander Shepherd.

I didn't invent the "message" these fallen angels will preach...they already are preaching it:

http://www.rael.org/

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« Reply #81 on: February 04, 2011, 03:11:54 PM »

What happened? Not interested in this?

The locusts of Rev 9

As it is impossible humans see the "seal of God" on the foreheads of His people, the following cannot refer to human armament.


1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit.
 2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit.
 3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
 5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man.
 6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.
 7 The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men.
 8 They had hair like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth.
 9 And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle.
 10 They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months.
 11 And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon. (Rev 9:1-11 NKJ)

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
 (Jud 1:6 NKJ)

These fallen angels released from the Abyss (ἄβυσσος) of Torment (Luk 8:31) are still bound (Jude 1:6) by God's will, that is the meaning of Locusts prohibited from eating the vegetation they voraciously crave (9:4), they are compelled to torment their own followers rather than the children of God they despise.

The crowns indicate these fallen angels "Nephilim; fallen ones" (Gen 6:4) once reigned as kings in the antediluvian world and were contemporaries of the "sons of God" who were seduced by the women of men, effectively joining the satanic plot to produce a hybrid human-angel seed to war against the seed of the woman (Gen 3:15).. The long hair and lions teeth indicate they are extremely vicious and blood thirsty warriors who once feasted on human and animal blood (cp Gen 9:4-6). Their breastplates of iron symbolizes imperviousness, the sound of chariots and many horses their power to rip to shreds any standing army.

Their ruler is the Devil "who would be King"---incarnate in the hybrid human "son of perdition" (John 13:27; 17:12l 2 Th 2:3), that is the meaning of the Hebrew "Abaddon"---Destruction,  the angel who Destroyed many only to be destroyed himself  (Dan 9:27; Rev 20:10),. The symbolic name Apollyon confirms, it being a cryptic reference to emperors who claimed to be the Greek god Apollos incarnate.

These are bound to do God's will, while Satan helplessly watches, for five months. The limit implies these return to their torments in the Abyss after they have accomplished all God has commanded they do.

To  sum up, this is not a reference to angelic or human technology, nor ufo aliens as their existence is only a strong delusion.


The horrible punishment of these spiritists should have compelled others to repentance, but it did not:

20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.
 21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries1 or their sexual immorality or their thefts. (Rev 9:20-21 NKJ)
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« Reply #82 on: February 04, 2011, 03:11:54 PM »

The locusts of Rev 9

As it is impossible humans see the "seal of God" on the foreheads of His people, the following cannot refer to human armament.


1 Then the fifth angel sounded: And I saw a star fallen from heaven to the earth. To him was given the key to the bottomless pit.
 2 And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace. So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit.
 3 Then out of the smoke locusts came upon the earth. And to them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
 4 They were commanded not to harm the grass of the earth, or any green thing, or any tree, but only those men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
 5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man.
 6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.
 7 The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men.
 8 They had hair like women's hair, and their teeth were like lions' teeth.
 9 And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle.
 10 They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months.
 11 And they had as king over them the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, but in Greek he has the name Apollyon. (Rev 9:1-11 NKJ)

6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
 (Jud 1:6 NKJ)

These fallen angels released from the Abyss (ἄβυσσος) of Torment (Luk 8:31) are still bound (Jude 1:6) by God's will, that is the meaning of Locusts prohibited from eating the vegetation they voraciously crave (9:4), they are compelled to torment their own followers rather than the children of God they despise (cp 1 Sa 16:14; Acts 5:16; Isa 50:11).

The crowns indicate these fallen angels "Nephilim; fallen ones" (Gen 6:4) once reigned as kings in the antediluvian world and were contemporaries of the "sons of God" who were seduced by the women of men, effectively joining the satanic plot to produce a hybrid human-angel seed to war against the seed of the woman (Gen 3:15).. The long hair and lions teeth indicate they are extremely vicious and blood thirsty warriors who once feasted on human and animal blood (cp Gen 9:4-6). Their breastplates of iron symbolizes imperviousness, the sound of chariots and many horses their power to rip into and shred  infantry. They stung their victims like scorpions, who hold their prey while their tail administers the tormenting poison.

Their ruler is the Devil "who would be The King"---incarnate in the hybrid human "son of perdition" (John 13:27; 17:12l 2 Th 2:3), that is the meaning of the Hebrew "Abaddon"---Destruction,  the angel who Destroyed many only to be destroyed himself  (Dan 9:27; Rev 20:10),. The symbolic name Apollyon confirms, it being a cryptic reference to emperors who claimed to be the Greek god Apollos incarnate.

These are bound to do God's will, while Satan helplessly watches, for five months. The limit implies these return to their torments in the Abyss after they have accomplished all God has commanded they do.

To  sum up, this is not a reference to angelic or human technology, nor ufo aliens as their existence is only a strong delusion.


The horrible punishment of these spiritists should have compelled others to repentance, but it did not:

20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.
 21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries1 or their sexual immorality or their thefts. (Rev 9:20-21 NKJ)
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« Reply #83 on: February 15, 2011, 12:46:16 PM »

Gabriel's Prophetic Telescoping

While Daniel does say 70 weeks are determined...Gabriel does NOT say he will stop prophesying after he discusses the 70th week...

 24 "Seventy weeks are determined For your people and for your holy city, To finish the transgression, To make an end of sins, To make reconciliation for iniquity, To bring in everlasting righteousness, To seal up vision and prophecy, And to anoint the Most Holy.
 25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; The street shall be built again, and the wall, Even in troublesome times.
 26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself;


Many ignore Gabriel said AFTER 7+62 weeks, that is AFTER the 69th week, which is in the 70th week.


THAT Gabriel keeps prophesying about events that happen AFTER the 70th week, does not contradict this.

It is natural Gabriel go on to indicate what will become of the temple and the Jews...

It is also natural Gabriel's prophecy "telescopes" from the New Covenant's bringing in everlasting righteousness, to the 2nd coming of Christ when He does the same...just as the other OT prophets  telescoped the first and second advents.

But that week is NOT part of the seventy, for the New Covenant in Christ's blood replaced the Mosaic sacrifices in the 70th week, in the first century.

Because of all that Christ accomplished, it fits the division of time in "sevens" that He have a whole week to Himself. The "symbolism" of cutting up time into "sevens"  is that God did a completed work within a 7, 7 symbolic of completeness. Ten also represent completeness...hence Ten x Seven, Seventy = completed work of God's redemption...Messiah cut off...for our sins...end of Mosaic Law, beginning of everlasting righteousness via the efficacy of Christ's blood sacrifice.

Chapter verse divisions aren't inspired, they were created by men centuries after the Bible was written, and the verse ended there.

Verse 26b should have been verse 27.

 And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined.
 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate." (Dan 9:24-27 NKJ)


"Then HE shall confirm"..., the pronoun "HE" in verse 27 is not required for literal translation, its in the inflection only, hence some translations (like the Septuagint) don't have the pronoun, which means verse 27 can be speaking about someone other than the "prince who is to come."

So I interpret the death of Christ fulfilled the 70th week, then years later the Temple is destroyed about 70 AD, and much later the Jews are scattered into all the nations, just as Christ prophesied.

Gabriel included the destruction of the Temple, even though it happened after the 70ty weeks, because it is relevant to Daniel's concerns, not because it must be within the Seventy weeks. So also his continuing to discuss the Diaspora which happened in the 2nd century, or the rise of the Antichrist which likely happens in th 21st century, because its relevant to Daniel's concerns...and ours...not because it happens in the Seventy weeks.

They ended with the Law ending, just as Dan 9:24 implies.

The  "prophetic telescoping" then is Christ's completed work of redemption in the 1st century, and His completing the work in the end times, bringing in His kingdom...

The Jews being scattered into all the nations, is the "valley" between the two events, which "telescoped" seem to occur one right after the other.

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« Reply #84 on: February 18, 2011, 04:55:58 AM »

Rev 9:13 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

"Horns" represent kingship (Dan 7-8), power to save (Ex 29:12) or destroy (Ex 21:14), "four" completeness  (Rev 4:6-8), hence the voice sounding from the four horns of the altar before God symbolizes it has God's authority and everything in this vision is by God's decree, not the independent action of its actors.


14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."

Compare:

6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
 (2Th 2:6-8 NKJ)


God unleashes the lying spirits that cause Babylon the Great to apostatize (fall) from all that is called God, to a new spiritistic religion of the antichrist. This kills them  spiritually and physically.

NKJ  Jeremiah 51:1 Thus says the LORD: "Behold, I will raise up against Babylon, Against those who dwell in Leb Kamai, A destroying wind. (Jer 51:1 NKJ)

The "Athbash"  "Leb Kamai" is a cipher that reverses the order of spelling to indicate something more than Chaldea is meant, namely, "Babylon the Great."

The four angels are symbolic, not actual angels just as the four horses of the apocalypse are not actual horses, they symbolize what is being released will go out in every direction (Rev 6).

All not having God's name on their forehead (Rev 9:4; Mat 24:24; 2 Thess 2:13f) in Leb Kami Babylon the Great are the targets.

2 And I will send winnowers to Babylon, Who shall winnow her and empty her land. For in the day of doom They shall be against her all around.
 3 Against her let the archer bend his bow, And lift himself up against her in his armor. Do not spare her young men; Utterly destroy all her army.
 4 Thus the slain shall fall in the land of the Chaldeans, And those thrust through in her streets.
 5 For Israel is not forsaken, nor Judah, By his God, the LORD of hosts, Though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel."
 6 Flee from the midst of Babylon, And every one save his life! Do not be cut off in her iniquity, For this is the time of the LORD'S vengeance; He shall recompense her. (Jer 51:2-6 NKJ)


Verse 6 shows this occurs when God commands His people come out of Babylon:

4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
 5 "For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
 6 "Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.
 7 "In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart,`I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.'
 8 "Therefore her plagues will come in one day-- death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her. (Rev 18:4-8 NKJ)


15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind.

God decree is for this precise time, no more...no less, the scope of its destruction is limited "a third of mankind" is killed, not all.


16 Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them.


"Two hundred million"  (δισμυριάδες μυριάδων) understates their number, μυριάς (“ten thousand”) designates an incalculable immensity, figurative of an innumerable, indefinite host (Gen. 24:60; Lev. 26:8; Num. 10:35[36]; Deut. 32:30; 33:2, 17; 1 Kgs. 18:7–8; 21:12[11]; Ps. 3:7[6]; Cant. 5:10; Sir. 47:6; Mic. 6:7; Dan. 7:10; in Ps. 90(91):7 LXX.


17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone.

This is a vision (ὅρασις) like Daniel's (4, 5, 8 etc), therefore these are symbols, not descriptions of actual objects. The horses are not technology, human or angelic...they symbolize an army.

These demon spirits are God's army of unholy myriads He sends to consume children of the Devil.

τοὺς καθημένους ἐπ᾽ αὐτῶν "those sitting (middle voice)  on them" indicates the riders are affected by the action, not initiating it. God is in complete control, the demons are His helpless victims, they are now being forced to destroy their own followers.


All three colors of the breastplates and their phenomena occur in a volcano; hence, this is symbolic of hell. While breastplates of righteousness (Is 59:17; Eph 6:14) faith and love (1 Th 5:8) exist, these are breastplates of destruction...all killed by this demonic army are cast into the lowest hell to await judgment day.

Just as the heads of the tails injure (vs. 19), these "heads of lions" are ruthlessly efficient killing, "eager to tear...ambush" (Ps 17:12) to devour (1 Pet 5:8),

The "fire, smoke and brimstone" out of their mouths is the judgment of God against the slain (Rev 14:10)



18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed-- by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths.


Given the symbolic nature of this vision, "a third" symbolizes God's restraint, it could have been much worse.

19 For their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.

This symbolizes all not consumed by the fire from their mouths, are killed by venom. This demonic killing horde is terrifyingly efficient, it kills those in front, and any it missed, as it passes through the ranks.


This isn't merely physical death, its spiritual also. These rise up in the Day of Christ only to be cast head long into the lake which burns with fire and sulphur.


20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.
 21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts. (Rev 9:13-21 NKJ)


This confirms the connection is to Babylon the Great and its great spiritistic falling away from all previous beliefs in God, to follow the "god of forces" (Dan 11:38f) the demon spirits preached:

And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird! (Rev 18:2 NKJ)
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« Reply #85 on: February 18, 2011, 08:29:40 AM »

Alfred, have  you met your atheist doppelganger TheJackel?
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« Reply #86 on: February 18, 2011, 08:38:14 AM »

Alfred, have  you met your atheist doppelganger TheJackel?

Lol
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« Reply #87 on: February 18, 2011, 01:15:08 PM »

Alfred, have  you met your atheist doppelganger TheJackel?

Why no comment on the exegesis?

An intelligent response would be appreciated.
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« Reply #88 on: February 18, 2011, 01:42:58 PM »

Alfred, have  you met your atheist doppelganger TheJackel?

Why no comment on the exegesis?

An intelligent response would be appreciated.
Do you still not understand, that as Orthodox Christians, we will never care about an individuals private interpretation of the Bible? Or do you not care what we believe.
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« Reply #89 on: February 18, 2011, 02:02:16 PM »

Alfred, have  you met your atheist doppelganger TheJackel?

Why no comment on the exegesis?

An intelligent response would be appreciated.
Do you still not understand, that as Orthodox Christians, we will never care about an individuals private interpretation of the Bible? Or do you not care what we believe.

To discuss anything you have to care enough to know what the other person thinks.

I never said I wasn't interested in the Orthodox interpretation of these things...I'd like to know it, discuss it, see if I agree.
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« Reply #90 on: February 18, 2011, 06:02:41 PM »

Alfred, have  you met your atheist doppelganger TheJackel?

Lol

Many believers will be blindsided by this delusion, their faith shaken to the core....no one warned them, no one explained why God uses intermediaries...why angels exist, and their use of technology...

Ignorance of God, that He is infinite and Holy and therefore uses intermediaries, for our sake, that we not  be consumed, was never explained to them...

They will see everything in scripture about angels etc...just as the UFO aliens interpret...the reality of UFO's will make everything in scripture, seem different...

Only those who know and love the truth, won't be deceived.

 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 (2Th 2:9-12 NKJ)

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« Reply #91 on: February 18, 2011, 06:17:05 PM »

Alfred, have  you met your atheist doppelganger TheJackel?

Lol

Many believers will be blindsided by this delusion, their faith shaken to the core....no one warned them, no one explained why God uses intermediaries...why angels exist, and their use of technology...

Ignorance of God, that He is infinite and Holy and therefore uses intermediaries, for our sake, that we not  be consumed, was never explained to them...

They will see everything in scripture about angels etc...just as the UFO aliens interpret...the reality of UFO's will make everything in scripture, seem different...

Only those who know and love the truth, won't be deceived.

 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 (2Th 2:9-12 NKJ)

Yes, we will all be duped and enslaved by the alien demons if you don't continue flooding this forum with your interminable posts. In centuries to come, they'll talk about how Alfred Persson saved the universe (along with Flash Gordon).
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« Reply #92 on: February 18, 2011, 11:16:40 PM »

Alfred, have  you met your atheist doppelganger TheJackel?

Lol

Many believers will be blindsided by this delusion, their faith shaken to the core....no one warned them, no one explained why God uses intermediaries...why angels exist, and their use of technology...

Ignorance of God, that He is infinite and Holy and therefore uses intermediaries, for our sake, that we not  be consumed, was never explained to them...

They will see everything in scripture about angels etc...just as the UFO aliens interpret...the reality of UFO's will make everything in scripture, seem different...

Only those who know and love the truth, won't be deceived.

 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 (2Th 2:9-12 NKJ)

Yes, we will all be duped and enslaved by the alien demons if you don't continue flooding this forum with your interminable posts. In centuries to come, they'll talk about how Alfred Persson saved the universe (along with Flash Gordon).

I didn't say you or anyone grounded in the correct (Trinitarian) doctrine of God...

But many are those that never bothered to learn the doctrine...many have become skeptics already just from the many video's on ufos, Bible passages and other holy books, and archeological sites which predate the flood.

If you believe the scripture, that Satan exists and is an intelligent being against God, then his pushing the ufo phenomena, and planning to use it in an end time deception, passes from a possibility to a near certainty. Nothing else would cause the world to lose faith in their respective religions like a UFO landing where the "aliens" point to Bible passages (and other holy books) allegedly proving their previous contact with mankind.

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« Reply #93 on: February 19, 2011, 10:49:01 AM »

Rev 9:13 Then the sixth angel sounded: And I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,

"Horns" represent kingship (Dan 7-8), power to save (Ex 29:12) or destroy (Ex 21:14), "four" completeness  (Rev 4:6-8), hence the voice sounding from the four horns of the altar before God symbolizes it has God's authority and everything in this vision is by God's decree, not the independent action of its actors.


14 saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, "Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates."

Compare:

6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
 (2Th 2:6-8 NKJ)


God unleashes the lying spirits that cause Babylon the Great to apostatize (fall) from all that is called God, to a new spiritistic religion of the antichrist. This kills them  spiritually and physically.

NKJ  Jeremiah 51:1 Thus says the LORD: "Behold, I will raise up against Babylon, Against those who dwell in Leb Kamai, A destroying wind. (Jer 51:1 NKJ)

The "Athbash"  "Leb Kamai" is a cipher that reverses the order of spelling to indicate something more than Chaldea is meant, namely, "Babylon the Great."

The four angels are symbolic, not actual angels just as the four horses of the apocalypse are not actual horses, they symbolize what is being released will go out in every direction (Rev 6).

All not having God's name on their forehead (Rev 9:4; Mat 24:24; 2 Thess 2:13f) in Leb Kami Babylon the Great are the targets.

2 And I will send winnowers to Babylon, Who shall winnow her and empty her land. For in the day of doom They shall be against her all around.
 3 Against her let the archer bend his bow, And lift himself up against her in his armor. Do not spare her young men; Utterly destroy all her army.
 4 Thus the slain shall fall in the land of the Chaldeans, And those thrust through in her streets.
 5 For Israel is not forsaken, nor Judah, By his God, the LORD of hosts, Though their land was filled with sin against the Holy One of Israel."
 6 Flee from the midst of Babylon, And every one save his life! Do not be cut off in her iniquity, For this is the time of the LORD'S vengeance; He shall recompense her. (Jer 51:2-6 NKJ)


Verse 6 shows this occurs when God commands His people come out of Babylon:

4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, "Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues.
 5 "For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquities.
 6 "Render to her just as she rendered to you, and repay her double according to her works; in the cup which she has mixed, mix double for her.
 7 "In the measure that she glorified herself and lived luxuriously, in the same measure give her torment and sorrow; for she says in her heart,`I sit as queen, and am no widow, and will not see sorrow.'
 8 "Therefore her plagues will come in one day-- death and mourning and famine. And she will be utterly burned with fire, for strong is the Lord God who judges her. (Rev 18:4-8 NKJ)


15 So the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released to kill a third of mankind.

God decree is for this precise time, no more...no less, the scope of its destruction is limited "a third of mankind" is killed, not all.


16 Now the number of the army of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them.


"Two hundred million"  (δισμυριάδες μυριάδων) understates their number, μυριάς (“ten thousand”) designates an incalculable immensity, figurative of an innumerable, indefinite host (Gen. 24:60; Lev. 26:8; Num. 10:35[36]; Deut. 32:30; 33:2, 17; 1 Kgs. 18:7–8; 21:12[11]; Ps. 3:7[6]; Cant. 5:10; Sir. 47:6; Mic. 6:7; Dan. 7:10; in Ps. 90(91):7 LXX.


17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision: those who sat on them had breastplates of fiery red, hyacinth blue, and sulfur yellow; and the heads of the horses were like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths came fire, smoke, and brimstone.

This is a vision (ὅρασις) like Daniel's (4, 5, 8 etc), therefore these are symbols, not descriptions of actual objects. The horses are not technology, human or angelic...they symbolize an army.

These demon spirits are God's army of unholy myriads He sends to consume children of the Devil.

τοὺς καθημένους ἐπ᾽ αὐτῶν "those sitting (middle voice)  on them" indicates the riders are affected by the action, not initiating it. God is in complete control, the demons are His helpless victims, they are now being forced to destroy their own followers.


All three colors of the breastplates and their phenomena occur in a volcano; hence, this is symbolic of hell. While breastplates of righteousness (Is 59:17; Eph 6:14) faith and love (1 Th 5:8) exist, these are breastplates of destruction...all killed by this demonic army are cast into the lowest hell to await judgment day.

Just as the heads of the tails injure (vs. 19), these "heads of lions" are ruthlessly efficient killing, "eager to tear...ambush" (Ps 17:12) to devour (1 Pet 5:8),

The "fire, smoke and brimstone" out of their mouths is the judgment of God against the slain (Rev 14:10)



18 By these three plagues a third of mankind was killed-- by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone which came out of their mouths.


Given the symbolic nature of this vision, "a third" symbolizes God's restraint, it could have been much worse.

19 For their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.

This symbolizes all not consumed by the fire from their mouths, are killed by venom. This demonic killing horde is terrifyingly efficient, it kills those in front, and any it missed, as it passes through the ranks.


This isn't merely physical death, its spiritual also. These rise up in the Day of Christ only to be cast head long into the lake which burns with fire and sulphur.


20 But the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, that they should not worship demons, and idols of gold, silver, brass, stone, and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk.
 21 And they did not repent of their murders or their sorceries or their sexual immorality or their thefts. (Rev 9:13-21 NKJ)


This confirms the connection is to Babylon the Great and its great spiritistic falling away from all previous beliefs in God, to follow the "god of forces" (Dan 11:38f) the demon spirits preached:

And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird! (Rev 18:2 NKJ)


That the demons symbolized by the horse and rider are the mystery of lawlessness, that secret power inciting rebellion against God's Law, is seen in the symbol of the mouth and serpent tail having a head:

For their power is in their mouth and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents, having heads; and with them they do harm.
 (Rev 9:19 NKJ)

Compare:

 The elder and honorable, he is the head; The prophet who teaches lies, he is the tail.
 (Isa 9:15 NKJ)

Out of their mouths come the lies of hell that destroy all  who believe their message. While some suppose the "harm" is not unto death, that is contradicted giving both the same "power" which in this context, is the power to kill: "For their power [to kill] is in their mouth and in their tails."

Hence those not killed directly by their mouths, will die from the venomous lies they were injected with.


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« Reply #94 on: February 19, 2011, 10:50:26 AM »

The aliens are here!
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« Reply #95 on: February 21, 2011, 04:37:08 AM »

Tee hee! ALIENS!.. Though a possible source to life's origins on Earth, I don't see much how it correlates to anything in the bible. Aliens however are indeed a plausible scenario. But I don't see any evidence to support that anymore than I see evidence of an invisible GOD made of nothing.
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« Reply #96 on: February 21, 2011, 04:40:10 AM »

I would like to see Theists prove that Aliens didn't create us. Calling it a delusion without evidence? You don't say! Tongue



Quote
This isn't merely physical death, its spiritual also. These rise up in the Day of Christ only to be cast head long into the lake which burns with fire and sulphur.

You might want to google volcanic activity Wink Yeah, that natural phenomenon...
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« Reply #97 on: February 21, 2011, 09:14:00 AM »

Hmmmm...more trolling...wonderful...
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« Reply #98 on: February 21, 2011, 04:54:34 PM »

Hmmmm...more trolling...wonderful...

How so? It's stating possibilities you don't like or want to consider on the subject.. Trolling would be if I went off-topic.. So why would it be impossible for higher intelligent and powerful aliens to have made us all? seeded us here? or even spark a Big Bang?.. I'm curious because your GOD argument sounds very similar to the alien argument with just a difference of opinion..Many of you think your GOD is made of nothing :/ ..
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« Reply #99 on: February 21, 2011, 06:59:35 PM »

No your atheism has nothing to do with the thread. But of course every thread has to be about you though, right? No one else should post until they've passed your logic test first. How foolish of me. Don't waste your time talking with me though, you could be starting 17 more threads in the meantime. Could you post a picture of yourself so I can set up a shrine to you at my house? Come to think of it, that may still not be enough to feed your inflated ego.
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« Reply #100 on: February 21, 2011, 07:11:18 PM »

Tee hee! ALIENS!.. Though a possible source to life's origins on Earth, I don't see much how it correlates to anything in the bible. Aliens however are indeed a plausible scenario. But I don't see any evidence to support that anymore than I see evidence of an invisible GOD made of nothing.

Are you stuck in the Science of the 19th Century? If it's "Invisible" it doesn't exist..  Didn't they say that about germs? Lame
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« Reply #101 on: February 23, 2011, 02:15:07 PM »

Tee hee! ALIENS!.. Though a possible source to life's origins on Earth, I don't see much how it correlates to anything in the bible. Aliens however are indeed a plausible scenario. But I don't see any evidence to support that anymore than I see evidence of an invisible GOD made of nothing.

Are you stuck in the Science of the 19th Century? If it's "Invisible" it doesn't exist..  Didn't they say that about germs? Lame

That wasn't the point of the argument.. It's I don't assume things of such matters without having some evidence to actually validate it. Smiley And the other issue is that GERMS aren't made of nothing  Undecided  My modern day science tells me that I don't state pure assumptions as facts like someone claiming that a God exists does. I don't even claim that aliens exist.
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« Reply #102 on: February 24, 2011, 11:32:08 AM »

Hmmmm...more trolling...wonderful...

How so? It's stating possibilities you don't like or want to consider on the subject.. Trolling would be if I went off-topic.. So why would it be impossible for higher intelligent and powerful aliens to have made us all? seeded us here? or even spark a Big Bang?.. I'm curious because your GOD argument sounds very similar to the alien argument with just a difference of opinion..Many of you think your GOD is made of nothing :/ ..

Its impossible alien life seeded life here, without God...as evolution doesn't occur...creation is required for life.

Unfortunately many in the church have accepted evolution as correct, that combined with ignorance of God, that He is infinite and Holy, and angels, that they do use technology and are physical when they want to be in our realm, will devastate their faith in God.

That is the meaning of the Great Falling Away, all belief in God by everyone one earth, is shaken to the core...not just among Christians...the man of sin rises up against ALL that is called God or worshiped...seeking to change times and God's law.

Only the elect will see through the lie, it will be that believable.

As for more proof scripture predicts this:

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. (Rev 16:13-14 NKJ)

This is a vision (ὅρασις Rev 9:17; Dan 8:16 cp 8:20), the unclean spirits are "like frogs", they aren't frogs nor will they look precisely like them. The likely frog meant here was common in Egypt during Exodus (8:1-15), the Ptychadena mascareniensis, also known in English as the Mascarene rocket frog--- when disturbed, they leap into or away from the water, simultaneously expelling a jet of water from the bladder.  Satanic power enabled Pharaoh's  magicians to command  these frogs (Ex 8:7).

http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:Ptychadena_mascareniensis.jpg

These unclean spirits like frogs are Fallen Angels pretending to be UFO aliens, performing great signs to mislead the kings of the earth into waging a war against God Himself just as they did to Pharaoh (Ex 7:22). This war is described in Rev.  19:11-21.


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« Reply #103 on: February 24, 2011, 09:01:47 PM »

as evolution doesn't occur

How do you account for the large variety of genetic attributes found within the human race who all descended from two human beings, one of which was taken from the flesh of the other?
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« Reply #104 on: February 24, 2011, 09:26:26 PM »

Tee hee! ALIENS!.. Though a possible source to life's origins on Earth, I don't see much how it correlates to anything in the bible. Aliens however are indeed a plausible scenario. But I don't see any evidence to support that anymore than I see evidence of an invisible GOD made of nothing.

Are you stuck in the Science of the 19th Century? If it's "Invisible" it doesn't exist..  Didn't they say that about germs? Lame

That wasn't the point of the argument.. It's I don't assume things of such matters without having some evidence to actually validate it. Smiley And the other issue is that GERMS aren't made of nothing  Undecided  My modern day science tells me that I don't state pure assumptions as facts like someone claiming that a God exists does. I don't even claim that aliens exist.
Except that that is not what some one who believes in God does, as has been demonstrated over and over and over and over ad nasium.
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« Reply #105 on: February 24, 2011, 10:32:08 PM »

as evolution doesn't occur

How do you account for the large variety of genetic attributes found within the human race who all descended from two human beings, one of which was taken from the flesh of the other?

That begs the question...how do you account for the complete lack of proof for evolution in the Cambrian strata...

This is where the ufo delusion will be strongest

Darwin & crew could suppose many fossils were yet undiscovered in his day, because they assumed these existed in the ocean floor...

However, tectonics has proven the ocean floor is not as old as dry land...

Life exploded in the Cambrian strata, it didn't evolve, that proves evolution impossible. That is presently cited by UFO sites as proof aliens seeded life.

Creationists cite it as proof God created.

So there are two LIKELY explanations for the explosion of life in the Cambrian strata, and evolution is NOT one of them.


Nothing in our experience evolves...mutation isn't evolution. Everything trends downward from a complex to the simple...everything...

Except in the Cambrian strata....there life just "came to be" in even more variety than we see today...exploded on the scene, not evolved slowly from one or a few organisms.

That proves intelligent intervention occurred...UFO people believe the aliens did it...Christians who believe the Bible know God created all things.

AND that means ufo aliens could NOT evolve somewhere else in the universe, without God...its impossible.

Evolution is impossible, that's why there are no lab experiments proving things evolve by chance...anywhere...because it don't happen...unless someone intelligently manipulates the elements.
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« Reply #106 on: February 24, 2011, 10:42:12 PM »

as evolution doesn't occur

How do you account for the large variety of genetic attributes found within the human race who all descended from two human beings, one of which was taken from the flesh of the other?

That begs the question...how do you account for the complete lack of proof for evolution in the Cambrian strata...

This is where the ufo delusion will be strongest

Darwin & crew could suppose many fossils were yet undiscovered in his day, because they assumed these existed in the ocean floor...

However, tectonics has proven the ocean floor is not as old as dry land...

Life exploded in the Cambrian strata, it didn't evolve, that proves evolution impossible. That is presently cited by UFO sites as proof aliens seeded life.

Creationists cite it as proof God created.

So there are two LIKELY explanations for the explosion of life in the Cambrian strata, and evolution is NOT one of them.


Nothing in our experience evolves...mutation isn't evolution. Everything trends downward from a complex to the simple...everything...

Except in the Cambrian strata....there life just "came to be" in even more variety than we see today...exploded on the scene, not evolved slowly from one or a few organisms.

I'm not talking necessarily from one species to another, but this along with the fact that there is no cure for HIV or the common cold because of how quickly they mutate is evidence that lifeforms can and do change over time based on various factors.
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« Reply #107 on: February 24, 2011, 10:45:02 PM »

as evolution doesn't occur

How do you account for the large variety of genetic attributes found within the human race who all descended from two human beings, one of which was taken from the flesh of the other?

That begs the question...how do you account for the complete lack of proof for evolution in the Cambrian strata...

This is where the ufo delusion will be strongest

Darwin & crew could suppose many fossils were yet undiscovered in his day, because they assumed these existed in the ocean floor...

However, tectonics has proven the ocean floor is not as old as dry land...

Life exploded in the Cambrian strata, it didn't evolve, that proves evolution impossible. That is presently cited by UFO sites as proof aliens seeded life.

Creationists cite it as proof God created.

So there are two LIKELY explanations for the explosion of life in the Cambrian strata, and evolution is NOT one of them.


Nothing in our experience evolves...mutation isn't evolution. Everything trends downward from a complex to the simple...everything...

Except in the Cambrian strata....there life just "came to be" in even more variety than we see today...exploded on the scene, not evolved slowly from one or a few organisms.

I'm not talking necessarily from one species to another, but this along with the fact that there is no cure for HIV or the common cold because of how quickly they mutate is evidence that lifeforms can and do change over time based on various factors.

Mutation is not evolution.

You need to find HIV evolving into a new form of life, mutating is not a new form of life.

You assume mutation eventually results in  evolution...but there is no proof of that anywhere, including in the Cambrian strata where life exploded upon the scene, geologically speaking, almost instantly.

What happens to an organism as it mutates, it becomes sterile....for example, horses mutate into donkeys, but these are sterile...they don't mutate further.

I keep citing the facts (fossils) of the Cambrian strata...because they are conclusive now that we realize the ocean floor is NOT going to reveal more about this strata...and now that a rich fossil Cambrian field has been excavated in China...incredible fossils...some even showing fleshly organs, not just bones.

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« Reply #108 on: February 24, 2011, 11:21:41 PM »

as evolution doesn't occur

How do you account for the large variety of genetic attributes found within the human race who all descended from two human beings, one of which was taken from the flesh of the other?

Hmmm..It was my understanding that there is only the very slightest variation among Modern Humans. In fact, all people living outside Africa can be genetically traced to a single group of Humans who left Africa and then multiplied and spread out. So there is a common ancestry to Chinese people and Europeans  for example. Racial differences are very slight and mostly are accounted for by sexual preference and the amount of Sunshine one gets.
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« Reply #109 on: February 25, 2011, 04:56:33 PM »

Quote
Mutation is not evolution.

Sorry, but you are wrong.

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« Reply #110 on: February 25, 2011, 06:53:58 PM »

Quote
Mutation is not evolution.

Sorry, but you are wrong.



Incorrect, you are and I am not sorry, I am glad.

Because there is a God, there is hope.
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« Reply #111 on: February 25, 2011, 07:04:50 PM »

So Alfred all this discussion and planning on starting a UFO Cult together won't come to fruition? "Heaven's Door" has a nice ring to it.
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« Reply #112 on: February 26, 2011, 02:17:38 PM »

Quote
Mutation is not evolution.

Sorry, but you are wrong.



Incorrect, you are and I am not sorry, I am glad.

Because there is a God, there is hope.

Oh, but lets actually define evolution here Wink

Quote
Evolution (also known as biological or organic evolution) is the change over time in the proportion of individual organisms differing in one or more inherited traits.[1] Inherited traits are particular distinguishing characteristics, including anatomical, biochemical or behavioural characteristics, that result from gene–environment interactions. Evolution may occur when there is variation of inherited traits within a population. The major sources of such variation are mutation, genetic recombination and gene flow

Sorry, but you are entirely wrong Smiley It seems to me that you don't really know what evolution means or is. Thus I hope I can help you better grasp it in a single word: "change"

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« Reply #113 on: February 27, 2011, 02:45:18 AM »

Quote
Mutation is not evolution.

Sorry, but you are wrong.



Incorrect, you are and I am not sorry, I am glad.

Because there is a God, there is hope.

Oh, but lets actually define evolution here Wink

Quote
Evolution (also known as biological or organic evolution) is the change over time in the proportion of individual organisms differing in one or more inherited traits.[1] Inherited traits are particular distinguishing characteristics, including anatomical, biochemical or behavioural characteristics, that result from gene–environment interactions. Evolution may occur when there is variation of inherited traits within a population. The major sources of such variation are mutation, genetic recombination and gene flow

Sorry, but you are entirely wrong Smiley It seems to me that you don't really know what evolution means or is. Thus I hope I can help you better grasp it in a single word: "change"



Mutation is not evolution:

Mutation Fixation: A Dead End for Macro-evolution
by E. Calvin Beisner, M.A.

Most arguments against the possibility of mutation as a mechanism for evolution revolve around two premises: that mutations are almost always harmful, and that the idea of their improving rather than harming organisms is contrary to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, which tells us that matter and energy naturally tend toward greater randomness rather than greater order and complexity. These are two sides of the same coin, actually, the latter arguing from principle and the former from empirical observation.

Rarely, though, do arguments against mutation as the mechanism for evolution consider at once the many conditions that must be met if mutation is to bring about macro-evolutionary change (that is, change from one basic kind of life to another). Yet examining the probabilities of these conditions all being met together provides excellent evidence against evolution and in favor of creation.
NINE CONDITIONS FOR MUTATION FIXATION

Fortunately, geneticist R.H. Byles has made the job easy for us by discussing nine important conditions in an article on the subject.


http://www.icr.org/article/270/

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« Reply #114 on: February 27, 2011, 03:07:02 PM »

So Alfred all this discussion and planning on starting a UFO Cult together won't come to fruition? "Heaven's Door" has a nice ring to it.

You misunderstood the entire thread...everything here is against ufo cults...

Perhaps you meant you were starting one?

I consider all such "a strong delusion", don't you?
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« Reply #115 on: February 27, 2011, 03:13:52 PM »

I've been asked where angels store the chariots or ships they travel in.

They are in another dimension, an alternate reality.

There are two matrixes or "realities" being generated by the Infinite God, ours is a "partial" MEROS,  the kingdom of heaven where angels dwell, a "complete" TELEIOS.

God lives in  neither reality, both our PARTIAL and the Kingdom of God COMPLETE are generated by the infinite Mind and power of God, both consist and have their being, in Him. No Matrix or reality "contains" KUWL God, God is the place where these two places exist:

As the ancient Jews would say:

"A common term for the Deity in Rabbinic literature is 'the Place,' which originates in the doctrine: 'The Holy One, blessed be He, is the place of His Universe, but His Universe is not His place' (Gen. R. LXVIII. 9). He encompasses space but space does not encompass Him."-( Everyman's Talmud, Schocken Books, 1995, p. 8, ).

 

So it is written:
  
But when that which is perfect (τέλειος)has come, then that which is in part(μέρος) will be done away. (1Co 13:10 NKJ)

And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist(συνίστημι). (Col 1:17 NKJ)

"But will God indeed dwell on the earth? Behold, heaven and the heaven of heavens cannot contain( כול ) You. How much less this temple which I have built! (1Ki 8:27 NKJ)

 "for in Him we live and move and have our being, as also some of your own poets have said,`For we are also His offspring.' (Act 17:28 NKJ)

So angels are "trans-dimensional beings", they can retain their physical form in our limited sphere of existence, or be invisible.

BECAUSE they are able to telepathically communicate visions, dreams, voices etc., they can disguise their appearance as anything (2 Cor 11:14)


Prior to the incarnation, Christ often appeared as the "angel of the LORD":

Then the LORD appeared to him by the terebinth trees of Mamre, as he was sitting in the tent door in the heat of the day.
2 So he lifted his eyes and looked, and behold, three men were standing by him; and when he saw them, he ran from the tent door to meet them, and bowed himself to the ground,
 3 and said, "My Lord, if I have now found favor in Your sight, do not pass on by Your servant.
 4 "Please let a little water be brought, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree.
 5 "And I will bring a morsel of bread, that you may refresh your hearts. After that you may pass by, inasmuch as you have come to your servant." They said, "Do as you have said."
 6 So Abraham hurried into the tent to Sarah and said, "Quickly, make ready three measures of fine meal; knead it and make cakes."
 7 And Abraham ran to the herd, took a tender and good calf, gave it to a young man, and he hastened to prepare it.
 8 So he took butter and milk and the calf which he had prepared, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree as they ate. (Gen 18:2-8 NKJ)

9 Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight.
 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel,
 11 who also said, "Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven."

 (Act 1:9-11 NKJ)

At the transfiguration, Christ and His disciples entered a portal into the Kingdom of heaven TELEIOS:

 And He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power."
 2 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John, and led them up on a high mountain apart by themselves; and He was transfigured before them.
 3 His clothes became shining, exceedingly white, like snow, such as no launderer on earth can whiten them.
 4 And Elijah appeared to them with Moses, and they were talking with Jesus.
 (Mar 9:1-4 NKJ)

Moses and Elijah are physical, not spirits, and they are in the Kingdom of God, which evidently has more dimensions that ours, and is on a different "time dimension" so we cannot see it. BUT it exists as an "alternate reality" all  around us, as demonstrated by Christ's resurrection appearances:

26 And after eight days His disciples were again inside, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, "Peace to you!"
 27 Then He said to Thomas, "Reach your finger here, and look at My hands; and reach your hand here, and put it into My side. Do not be unbelieving, but believing."
 28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
 (Joh 20:26-28 NKJ)

The text does not say Jesus came through the locked doors, He "stood in their midst", that is, appeared in our reality, our PARTIAL. He does not "materialize physical bodies" as some cults believe, he simply "stepped out of the Teleios, into the Meros.

As 1 Cor 13:10 shows, when the more substantial Matrix comes, the less substantial vanishes, perhaps because the greater displaces the lesser...all space to exist is consumed  by the "complete" TELEIOS.

But when that which is perfect (τέλειος)has come, then that which is in part(μέρος) will be done away. (1Co 13:10 NKJ)

Our "partial" lacks the revelation of God

 9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part.
 10 But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.
 11 When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child; but when I became a man, I put away childish things.
 12 For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part, but then I shall know just as I also am known.
 13 And now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love. (1Co 13:9-13 NKJ)


If I were to propose a poor analogy...we, our partial, is a tiny bubble floating in the infinite ocean of essence that is God...one day....God will let the air our of our bubble:

 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all. (1Co 15:28 NKJ)

 21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. (Joh 17:21 NKJ)

Therefore it is written:

 22 But I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are its temple.
 23 The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. (Rev 21:22-23 NKJ)




Prior to the flood, Fallen angels (NEPHILIM) coexisted with the "Sons of God" sent to counter Satan's rebellion on earth. Humans conspired with Satan to seduce these with their daughters, and they too produced hybrid human/angel offspring, the "men of renown"

1 Now it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born to them,
 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men, that they were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves of all whom they chose.
 3 And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years."
 4 There were giants on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
 5 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
 6 And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
 7 So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."
 8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
 9 This is the genealogy of Noah. Noah was a just man, perfect in his generations. Noah walked with God.
 (Gen 6:1-9 NKJ)

Observe God blamed man for their fall, for their sin was great, seducing the sons of God sent to help them, an extreme betrayal. But the "sons of God" were not thereby less guilty (2 Pet 2:4 cp Jude 1:6), while not joining Satan's rebellion, for all practical purposes they aided it by also producing hybrid children, abetting  Satan's plan to produce a seed to fight the worman's seed (Gen 3:15).

So God destroys all flesh to wipe out the hybrid humans, but Noah was all human, "perfect in his generations." (Evidently some of those with him were not as some angelic dna survived the flood).

BUT God punished all the angels who sinned, reserving in eternal bonds those "sons of God" for separate judgment from the Nephilim (Fallen Ones), who evidently became the unclean spirits who now roam the earth looking to possess humans and animals because they crave their former physical existence.

Those angels who had stayed with Satan in heaven, in the end time are cast out of heaven and some of these will be allowed to appear on earth physically, just like they did before the flood:

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,
 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. (Rev 12:7-8 NKJ)

How many angels will pretend to be UFO aliens there will be, is debatable. Perhaps only three will appear, an Satanic Trinity under the command of Satan, the Antichrist, and the False Prophet:

13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.
 14 For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. (Rev 16:13-14 NKJ)

Or perhaps millions of them, I don't know. I do know the strong delusion they seeded the idea of God among men, will be very convincing to all who do not love God with all their heart, soul and mind, by clinging to every word out of His mouth, trusting God's Word of truth above all, even experience itself.

"If there arises among you a prophet or a dreamer of dreams, and he gives you a sign or a wonder,
 2 "and the sign or the wonder comes to pass, of which he spoke to you, saying,`Let us go after other gods'-- which you have not known--`and let us serve them,'
 3 "you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams, for the LORD your God is testing you to know whether you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
 4 "You shall walk after the LORD your God and fear Him, and keep His commandments and obey His voice, and you shall serve Him and hold fast to Him.
(Deu 13:1-4 NKJ)

The fallen angels will convince most of the world God doesn't exist, that they are mankind's  benefactors, and that Christ and His angels are the enemy...and will gather the world to fight Christ, at Harmageddon.

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war.
 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself.
 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God.
 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses.
 15 Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written: KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
 17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, "Come and gather together for the supper of the great God,
 18 "that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, both small and great."
 19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army.
 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone.
 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.

 (Rev 19:11-1 NKJ)

What precisely became of Satan's fallen angels was revealed by Christ. I am still studying the book of Revelation and may yet find this information in its symbols:

41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand,`Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: (Mat 25:41 NKJ)

So God is infinite, nothing in creation or even the sum total of creation, can fight God, with a thought, He can change one or both matrixes, and everything in it:

10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. (2Pe 3:10 NKJ)

"Melt" in Greek is LUO, literally "loosed," the very fabric of our Matrix is "loosed" by a thought of God, He changes His Mind, and everything changes....

There is no contest here, only God's plan to reveal Himself to His creation, as righteous, as love, as correct...no more rebellion will exist after He has done all that He has purposed to do...and those who did rebel, will be punished forever.


So back to the point...angels use technology, that is the likely interpretation of Ezekiel c. 1., BUT that doesn't change one iota the message angels spoke for God.

The Bible remains 100% correct, accurate, its our interpretation that needs to change to become consistent with its revelation.

UFO enthusiasts will fall  for the delusion God doesn't exist, because of the evidence in all the holy books, archeological sites, etc...that something more than human beings does exist, and has used technology. So when the aliens land, and proclaim they seeded the idea of God and human soul, MANY will believe it...the "proof" will be standing there before their eyes.

BUT God's elect will not be deceived, they will not fall for the strong delusion:

 24 "For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect.
 25 "See, I have told you beforehand. (Mat 24:24-25 NKJ)

Here gullible antichrists are contrasted to faithful Christians who love the truth of God's Word (John 17:17) above all else, including their own experiences, and so are not deceived:
[/B]
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
 14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
(2Th 2:9-14 NKJ)

Spiritism will be a prominent feature of the antichrists, but their rebellion against the Bible identifies the inspiring spirit as NOT the real Jesus Christ:

2 And he cried mightily with a loud voice, saying, "Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird! (Rev 18:2 NKJ)

 20 "Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
 21 "Not everyone who says to Me,`Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
 22 "Many will say to Me in that day,`Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?'
 23 "And then I will declare to them,`I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
 (Mat 7:20-23 NKJ)

 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (1Jo 4:6 NKJ)
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« Reply #116 on: February 27, 2011, 03:55:12 PM »

Here's the thing Alfred, some of the things you say, I and a few others may agree with. But as Orthodox Christians, when we see someone saying that they know with 100% surety what will take place in the future, we definately shy away. We, as I'm sure you know, believe in the consensus. Your views are individualistic to the extreme. Do I personally think something in the future may occur with UFOs and the Nephilim? Sure I do. But this is my opinion. And within Orthodoxy it is fine to have opinions, but they cannot, and must not be amplified to the point of dogma/doctrine.
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« Reply #117 on: February 27, 2011, 04:23:41 PM »

Here's the thing Alfred, some of the things you say, I and a few others may agree with. But as Orthodox Christians, when we see someone saying that they know with 100% surety what will take place in the future, we definately shy away. We, as I'm sure you know, believe in the consensus. Your views are individualistic to the extreme. Do I personally think something in the future may occur with UFOs and the Nephilim? Sure I do. But this is my opinion. And within Orthodoxy it is fine to have opinions, but they cannot, and must not be amplified to the point of dogma/doctrine.

You misunderstood, interpretation is not prophecy...and I often disclaim anything I interpret is received by divine revelation so as to make it prophecy's equivalent.


If revelation is inconsistent with scripture in any detail whatsoever, its not revelation from God.

Although the Holy Spirit rests upon me as warm oil continually, upon the "face" of my inner man. the new creature born when I believed and publicly confessed Jesus Christ is LORD to the glory of God the Father--- and He has NEVER left me or forsaken me for 30+ years ...


I am a cessationist, I don't accept God is revealing things privately, apart from His Word  the Bible.

I do not believe tongues are for our day, I do not believe we are receiving revelations about the end times, or after life etc, through visions, dreams or voices.

If a believer wants to know the 100% truth of those things, he must diligently study the scriptures...the answer is in there, if you really seek it, you will find it...He will open your mind to receive it:

And He opened their understanding, that they might comprehend the Scriptures. (Luk 24:45 NKJ)


The earnest believer will also avail himself of the teachers God in His grace has sent the church (1 Cor 12:28), remembering

There is no wisdom or understanding Or counsel against the LORD. (Pro 21:30 NKJ)

If any claim to teach by God's grace, but contradict the scripture, there is no light in them:

To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa 8:20 NKJ)

 28 "The prophet who has a dream, let him tell a dream; And he who has My word, let him speak My word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat?" says the LORD. (Jer 23:28 NKJ)

Every time I learn through Bible Study an idea is inconsistent with even the smallest detail of scripture...I repent and believe the scripture---THEN I know the truth, and the truth sets me free.

"For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
 (Mat 5:18 NKJ)

31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.
 32 "And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."
(Joh 8:31-32 NKJ)

 17 "Sanctify them by Your truth. Your word is truth. (Joh 17:17 NKJ)
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« Reply #118 on: February 27, 2011, 04:30:28 PM »

Quote
You misunderstood, interpretation is not prophecy...
Call it what you want Alfred...If you still want to insist that you know how the end times will play out, then we will not listen, nor take you seriously.
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« Reply #119 on: February 27, 2011, 04:59:19 PM »

nt
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« Reply #120 on: February 27, 2011, 05:00:58 PM »

Quote
You misunderstood, interpretation is not prophecy...
Call it what you want Alfred...If you still want to insist that you know how the end times will play out, then we will not listen, nor take you seriously.

I am convinced by the scriptures and events, if you dispute my interpretation, cite the reasons (with the facts you deliberate from) here, and I will discuss it.

THAT is what Christians in the Bible did:

 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.
 30 But if anything is revealed to another who sits by, let the first keep silent.
 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, that all may learn and all may be encouraged.
 32 And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
 33 For God is not the author of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
 (1Co 14:29-33 NKJ)

"Prophets" in this context = bringing forth God's Word from scripture:

 26 How is it then, brethren? Whenever you come together, each of you has a psalm, has a teaching, has a tongue, has a revelation, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. (1Co 14:26 NKJ)

That these are not "prophets" like the apostles or OT prophets is evident from the fact any "incorrect prophecy" is not immediately condemned  as "false prophecy," ----there is no prescribed punishment if those more versed in the scripture ("others judge") decide the "revelation" is incorrect.

AND Paul expressly denies the "word of God" is being preached by these prophets:

 36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached?
 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord.
 (1Co 14:36-37 NKJ)

Therefore these tongues, prophecies, revelations were NOT the inerrant word of God...I equate it to expository preaching found in many churches today...and those who believe God showed opened their mind to see something in scripture...but whether He did or not, can only be determined by those who know the truth of Scripture.

The "spirits of the prophets" are not angelic spirits, they are the human spirits of these people who believe God has shown them something...as we both know, that is often not the case.

BUT their "interpretation/prophecy" was judged by "others" who knew the truth, and the relevant texts that either confirm or refute it...not dismissed as you do on ad hominem grounds, which are unsound, being irrelevant.

I didn't post these things for you to accept them without discussion, or prefer them over your own beliefs...but to test it's soundness...if it can pass scriptural muster...then as scripture is true, its likely correct.

If scripture contradicts a premise or conclusion I put forth, then I recant, for its written:


18 "For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
 19 "Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
 20 "For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. (Mat 5:18-20 NKJ)
« Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 05:14:37 PM by Alfred Persson » Logged

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« Reply #121 on: February 27, 2011, 07:24:44 PM »

At some risk to my personal reputation, I'd like to mention that I have seen a UFO.

I was driving on the highway to a business appointment, it was early evening, it was not an isolated area.

In the the distance I could see a tremendously bright light, a glowing ball radiating streams of light.The brightness was on the order of burning magnesium. I thought to myself that people who see UFO's often mistake it for the planet Venus. But it was really way too bright and the streams of light were not at all like the glow from a planet.

As I came up to where it was ( Rt. 270 north, at the Rio Center), the ball of light was not the UFO, it was attached to a craft. The ball was a couple of hundred feet above it and connected to it by a thin thread of light.

The craft was  the size of a five story building... It was shaped like two Pyramids stuck together top and bottom. It had two head lights that look just like the retractable head lights on a Chevy Corvette. It was facing DC. For some reason I got the impression they were listing in on something going on there. There is no reason why I would think this, It was just my impression for some reason.

I drove by, mouth open. I didn't know what to do. I kept driving ( Mama didn't raise a dummy) and went to my appointment. I drove back the same way but it was not there.

 It hovered  a couple hundred feet above several large high rise apartment buildings ( The Washingtonian) and the Rio Center which has restaurants and stores. It made a low humming noise.

Did I mention it was the size of a small building? No one could have missed it. I didn't see any reports the next day or ever.
I certainly didn't report it.

I got home and told the wife.. I didn't panic or change my beliefs. I was not any sort of UFO fanatic before or after. I didn't desire to see such a thing. I have just filed the memory away. I have not tried to make anything of it...

So it goes.
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« Reply #122 on: February 27, 2011, 08:38:56 PM »

At some risk to my personal reputation, I'd like to mention that I have seen a UFO.

I was driving on the highway to a business appointment, it was early evening, it was not an isolated area.

In the the distance I could see a tremendously bright light, a glowing ball radiating streams of light.The brightness was on the order of burning magnesium. I thought to myself that people who see UFO's often mistake it for the planet Venus. But it was really way too bright and the streams of light were not at all like the glow from a planet.

As I came up to where it was ( Rt. 270 north, at the Rio Center), the ball of light was not the UFO, it was attached to a craft. The ball was a couple of hundred feet above it and connected to it by a thin thread of light.

The craft was  the size of a five story building... It was shaped like two Pyramids stuck together top and bottom. It had two head lights that look just like the retractable head lights on a Chevy Corvette. It was facing DC. For some reason I got the impression they were listing in on something going on there. There is no reason why I would think this, It was just my impression for some reason.

I drove by, mouth open. I didn't know what to do. I kept driving ( Mama didn't raise a dummy) and went to my appointment. I drove back the same way but it was not there.

 It hovered  a couple hundred feet above several large high rise apartment buildings ( The Washingtonian) and the Rio Center which has restaurants and stores. It made a low humming noise.

Did I mention it was the size of a small building? No one could have missed it. I didn't see any reports the next day or ever.
I certainly didn't report it.

I got home and told the wife.. I didn't panic or change my beliefs. I was not any sort of UFO fanatic before or after. I didn't desire to see such a thing. I have just filed the memory away. I have not tried to make anything of it...

So it goes.

Its likely the "vision" was seen by you alone.

A ufo experience is a paranormal experience, and many who have had them suffer from satanic attacks and find themselves victims paranormal phenomena.

AND repeated "visits".

They are demons and can be driven away just as one drives away evil spirits.

Regardless how Nephilim appear, whether in a dream or vision as a glorious one, or as a UFO alien, they cannot confess Jesus Christ has come in the flesh...when asked to do so, their disguise falls away and you will see them for what they are.  

Nor can demon confess Jesus is LORD, that is implicit in their inability to do so while prophesying through a human agent:  

NKJ 1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant:  

2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led.  

3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. (1Co 12:1-3 NKJ)  

Regardless what the entity claims to be, Mary, Michael, Gabriel, a departed loved one or Bible "saint," ask them to confess Jesus is LORD, that Jesus came in the flesh...and likely their disguise will drop away, and you will see them for that they are.  

If that happens, fear not. Arm yourself with obedience to God's Word:  

13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.  

14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness,  

15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;  

16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.  

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;  

18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints--  

(Eph 6:13-18 NKJ)  


11 lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices. (2Co 2:11 NKJ)  

No demon can possess a Christian, all they do is from a distance, telepathically they make one believe they hear and see things, touch and smell things, but its a lying vision:

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. (1Jo 5:18 KJV)

God does not allow they touch us, do not believe their threats, they are bluffing.


Obedience to God saved me, the Holy Spirit brought to my remembrance the above texts when a "glorious one" appeared to me...when asked to confess Jesus came in the flesh...that Jesus is his LORD...his disguise fell and I was snatched away from his realm.

I had to overcome a powerful feeling I was committing blasphemy to ask this being to confess Jesus...but I overcame it, saying to myself, "I must obey God."

Do the same if they return.

I thank God every day for saving me...if it happens to you, obey His Word and test the spirits...and then, so will you.  

 
Evidently they are practicing their future deception, now...Jacques Vallee reports they have tested "beam weapons" on humans, causing physical harm, even death. I can't recall  which of his books that was reported. You should check out his research, "Messengers of Deception" "Revelations: Alien contact and human deception."

Jacques Vallee isn't a Christian, he is a scientist and concludes:

"I propose: that the UFO we see is, among other things, a device which creates a distortion of the witness' reality; that it does so for a purpose which is to project images or fabricated scenes designed to change our belief systems; and that the technology we observe is only the incidental support for a worldwide enterprise of "subliminal seduction."...  

[/I]  

"I believe there is a machinery of mass manipulation behind the UFO phenomenon. It aims at social and political goals by diverting attention from some human problems and by providing a potential release for tensions caused by others. The contactees are a part of that machinery. They are helping to create a new form of belief: an expectation of actual contact among large parts of the public. In turn this expectation makes millions of people hope for the imminent realization of that age-old dream: salvation from above, surrender to the greater power of some wise navigators of the cosmos [/B]."-Jacques Vallee, Messengers of Deception, UFO Contacts and Cults (Daily Grail Publishing, 1979), p. 20.  

 


 

 

 

« Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 09:00:42 PM by Alfred Persson » Logged

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« Reply #123 on: February 27, 2011, 10:54:24 PM »

At some risk to my personal reputation, I'd like to mention that I have seen a UFO.

I was driving on the highway to a business appointment, it was early evening, it was not an isolated area.

In the the distance I could see a tremendously bright light, a glowing ball radiating streams of light.The brightness was on the order of burning magnesium. I thought to myself that people who see UFO's often mistake it for the planet Venus. But it was really way too bright and the streams of light were not at all like the glow from a planet.

As I came up to where it was ( Rt. 270 north, at the Rio Center), the ball of light was not the UFO, it was attached to a craft. The ball was a couple of hundred feet above it and connected to it by a thin thread of light.

The craft was  the size of a five story building... It was shaped like two Pyramids stuck together top and bottom. It had two head lights that look just like the retractable head lights on a Chevy Corvette. It was facing DC. For some reason I got the impression they were listing in on something going on there. There is no reason why I would think this, It was just my impression for some reason.

I drove by, mouth open. I didn't know what to do. I kept driving ( Mama didn't raise a dummy) and went to my appointment. I drove back the same way but it was not there.

 It hovered  a couple hundred feet above several large high rise apartment buildings ( The Washingtonian) and the Rio Center which has restaurants and stores. It made a low humming noise.

Did I mention it was the size of a small building? No one could have missed it. I didn't see any reports the next day or ever.
I certainly didn't report it.

I got home and told the wife.. I didn't panic or change my beliefs. I was not any sort of UFO fanatic before or after. I didn't desire to see such a thing. I have just filed the memory away. I have not tried to make anything of it...

So it goes.

Its likely the "vision" was seen by you alone.

A ufo experience is a paranormal experience, and many who have had them suffer from satanic attacks and find themselves victims paranormal phenomena.

AND repeated "visits".

They are demons and can be driven away just as one drives away evil spirits.

Regardless how Nephilim appear, whether in a dream or vision as a glorious one, or as a UFO alien, they cannot confess Jesus Christ has come in the flesh...when asked to do so, their disguise falls away and you will see them for what they are.  

Nor can demon confess Jesus is LORD, that is implicit in their inability to do so while prophesying through a human agent:  

NKJ 1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant:  

2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led.  

3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. (1Co 12:1-3 NKJ)  

Regardless what the entity claims to be, Mary, Michael, Gabriel, a departed loved one or Bible "saint," ask them to confess Jesus is LORD, that Jesus came in the flesh...and likely their disguise will drop away, and you will see them for that they are.  

If that happens, fear not. Arm yourself with obedience to God's Word:  

13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.  

14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness,  

15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;  

16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.  

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;  

18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints--  

(Eph 6:13-18 NKJ)  


11 lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices. (2Co 2:11 NKJ)  

No demon can possess a Christian, all they do is from a distance, telepathically they make one believe they hear and see things, touch and smell things, but its a lying vision:

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. (1Jo 5:18 KJV)

God does not allow they touch us, do not believe their threats, they are bluffing.


Obedience to God saved me, the Holy Spirit brought to my remembrance the above texts when a "glorious one" appeared to me...when asked to confess Jesus came in the flesh...that Jesus is his LORD...his disguise fell and I was snatched away from his realm.

I had to overcome a powerful feeling I was committing blasphemy to ask this being to confess Jesus...but I overcame it, saying to myself, "I must obey God."

Do the same if they return.

I thank God every day for saving me...if it happens to you, obey His Word and test the spirits...and then, so will you.  

 
Evidently they are practicing their future deception, now...Jacques Vallee reports they have tested "beam weapons" on humans, causing physical harm, even death. I can't recall  which of his books that was reported. You should check out his research, "Messengers of Deception" "Revelations: Alien contact and human deception."

Jacques Vallee isn't a Christian, he is a scientist and concludes:

"I propose: that the UFO we see is, among other things, a device which creates a distortion of the witness' reality; that it does so for a purpose which is to project images or fabricated scenes designed to change our belief systems; and that the technology we observe is only the incidental support for a worldwide enterprise of "subliminal seduction."...  

[/I]  

"I believe there is a machinery of mass manipulation behind the UFO phenomenon. It aims at social and political goals by diverting attention from some human problems and by providing a potential release for tensions caused by others. The contactees are a part of that machinery. They are helping to create a new form of belief: an expectation of actual contact among large parts of the public. In turn this expectation makes millions of people hope for the imminent realization of that age-old dream: salvation from above, surrender to the greater power of some wise navigators of the cosmos [/B]."-Jacques Vallee, Messengers of Deception, UFO Contacts and Cults (Daily Grail Publishing, 1979), p. 20.  

 


 

 

 



Hmmmm...Okay. I am in general agreement with you. The idea that I was the only one to see it, as in a vision, makes some sense. I assure you it was physically present. I knew I was looking at something extra-ordinary so I really concentrated on looking hard at it and not making an error about it.

I also agree that UFO phenomena for the most part is demonic in nature and not aliens from other planets, etc....And I've seen one .
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« Reply #124 on: February 27, 2011, 11:00:24 PM »

I find it amazing that demons can interfere in this reality to play these kind of tricks on us. I wonder how they get to be manifested into reality though.

Amazing story Marc, I actually beleive you.
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« Reply #125 on: February 27, 2011, 11:36:19 PM »

I am also largely in agreement with what Alfred said. It is demonic, and absolutely paranormal. And yes, the power of our God and Saviour Jesus Christ can and will repel them.
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« Reply #126 on: February 28, 2011, 12:15:03 AM »

I just dont believe in intelligent extraterrestrial life (but non-intelligent, yes). It would require them to human souls and...yeah.

Plus the panspermia theory has many holes in it.
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« Reply #127 on: February 28, 2011, 09:28:55 AM »

Quote
Mutation is not evolution.

Sorry, but you are wrong.



Incorrect, you are and I am not sorry, I am glad.

Because there is a God, there is hope.

Oh, but lets actually define evolution here Wink

Quote
Evolution (also known as biological or organic evolution) is the change over time in the proportion of individual organisms differing in one or more inherited traits.[1] Inherited traits are particular distinguishing characteristics, including anatomical, biochemical or behavioural characteristics, that result from gene–environment interactions. Evolution may occur when there is variation of inherited traits within a population. The major sources of such variation are mutation, genetic recombination and gene flow

Sorry, but you are entirely wrong Smiley It seems to me that you don't really know what evolution means or is. Thus I hope I can help you better grasp it in a single word: "change"



Mutation is not evolution:

Mutation Fixation: A Dead End for Macro-evolution
by E. Calvin Beisner, M.A.

Most arguments against the possibility of mutation as a mechanism for evolution revolve around two premises: that mutations are almost always harmful, and that the idea of their improving rather than harming organisms is contrary to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, which tells us that matter and energy naturally tend toward greater randomness rather than greater order and complexity. These are two sides of the same coin, actually, the latter arguing from principle and the former from empirical observation.

Rarely, though, do arguments against mutation as the mechanism for evolution consider at once the many conditions that must be met if mutation is to bring about macro-evolutionary change (that is, change from one basic kind of life to another). Yet examining the probabilities of these conditions all being met together provides excellent evidence against evolution and in favor of creation.
NINE CONDITIONS FOR MUTATION FIXATION

Fortunately, geneticist R.H. Byles has made the job easy for us by discussing nine important conditions in an article on the subject.


http://www.icr.org/article/270/



This tells me you don't know what gene duplication is, or even the basic understandings of plant evolution.. Sorry but mutation = evolution.  And lastly, you don't comprehend what macro-evolution is apparently, and I can tell that you don't because you are quoting someone who apparrently also doesn't know what it is.. I tell you what, go to youtube and search for "macro-evolution" vs "micro-evolution"..

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Alfred Persson
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« Reply #128 on: February 28, 2011, 10:17:45 AM »

At some risk to my personal reputation, I'd like to mention that I have seen a UFO.

I was driving on the highway to a business appointment, it was early evening, it was not an isolated area.

In the the distance I could see a tremendously bright light, a glowing ball radiating streams of light.The brightness was on the order of burning magnesium. I thought to myself that people who see UFO's often mistake it for the planet Venus. But it was really way too bright and the streams of light were not at all like the glow from a planet.

As I came up to where it was ( Rt. 270 north, at the Rio Center), the ball of light was not the UFO, it was attached to a craft. The ball was a couple of hundred feet above it and connected to it by a thin thread of light.

The craft was  the size of a five story building... It was shaped like two Pyramids stuck together top and bottom. It had two head lights that look just like the retractable head lights on a Chevy Corvette. It was facing DC. For some reason I got the impression they were listing in on something going on there. There is no reason why I would think this, It was just my impression for some reason.

I drove by, mouth open. I didn't know what to do. I kept driving ( Mama didn't raise a dummy) and went to my appointment. I drove back the same way but it was not there.

 It hovered  a couple hundred feet above several large high rise apartment buildings ( The Washingtonian) and the Rio Center which has restaurants and stores. It made a low humming noise.

Did I mention it was the size of a small building? No one could have missed it. I didn't see any reports the next day or ever.
I certainly didn't report it.

I got home and told the wife.. I didn't panic or change my beliefs. I was not any sort of UFO fanatic before or after. I didn't desire to see such a thing. I have just filed the memory away. I have not tried to make anything of it...

So it goes.

Its likely the "vision" was seen by you alone.

A ufo experience is a paranormal experience, and many who have had them suffer from satanic attacks and find themselves victims paranormal phenomena.

AND repeated "visits".

They are demons and can be driven away just as one drives away evil spirits.

Regardless how Nephilim appear, whether in a dream or vision as a glorious one, or as a UFO alien, they cannot confess Jesus Christ has come in the flesh...when asked to do so, their disguise falls away and you will see them for what they are.  

Nor can demon confess Jesus is LORD, that is implicit in their inability to do so while prophesying through a human agent:  

NKJ 1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be ignorant:  

2 You know that you were Gentiles, carried away to these dumb idols, however you were led.  

3 Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. (1Co 12:1-3 NKJ)  

Regardless what the entity claims to be, Mary, Michael, Gabriel, a departed loved one or Bible "saint," ask them to confess Jesus is LORD, that Jesus came in the flesh...and likely their disguise will drop away, and you will see them for that they are.  

If that happens, fear not. Arm yourself with obedience to God's Word:  

13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.  

14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness,  

15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;  

16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.  

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;  

18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints--  

(Eph 6:13-18 NKJ)  


11 lest Satan should take advantage of us; for we are not ignorant of his devices. (2Co 2:11 NKJ)  

No demon can possess a Christian, all they do is from a distance, telepathically they make one believe they hear and see things, touch and smell things, but its a lying vision:

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. (1Jo 5:18 KJV)

God does not allow they touch us, do not believe their threats, they are bluffing.


Obedience to God saved me, the Holy Spirit brought to my remembrance the above texts when a "glorious one" appeared to me...when asked to confess Jesus came in the flesh...that Jesus is his LORD...his disguise fell and I was snatched away from his realm.

I had to overcome a powerful feeling I was committing blasphemy to ask this being to confess Jesus...but I overcame it, saying to myself, "I must obey God."

Do the same if they return.

I thank God every day for saving me...if it happens to you, obey His Word and test the spirits...and then, so will you.  

 
Evidently they are practicing their future deception, now...Jacques Vallee reports they have tested "beam weapons" on humans, causing physical harm, even death. I can't recall  which of his books that was reported. You should check out his research, "Messengers of Deception" "Revelations: Alien contact and human deception."

Jacques Vallee isn't a Christian, he is a scientist and concludes:

"I propose: that the UFO we see is, among other things, a device which creates a distortion of the witness' reality; that it does so for a purpose which is to project images or fabricated scenes designed to change our belief systems; and that the technology we observe is only the incidental support for a worldwide enterprise of "subliminal seduction."...  

[/I]  

"I believe there is a machinery of mass manipulation behind the UFO phenomenon. It aims at social and political goals by diverting attention from some human problems and by providing a potential release for tensions caused by others. The contactees are a part of that machinery. They are helping to create a new form of belief: an expectation of actual contact among large parts of the public. In turn this expectation makes millions of people hope for the imminent realization of that age-old dream: salvation from above, surrender to the greater power of some wise navigators of the cosmos [/B]."-Jacques Vallee, Messengers of Deception, UFO Contacts and Cults (Daily Grail Publishing, 1979), p. 20.  

 


 

 

 



Hmmmm...Okay. I am in general agreement with you. The idea that I was the only one to see it, as in a vision, makes some sense. I assure you it was physically present. I knew I was looking at something extra-ordinary so I really concentrated on looking hard at it and not making an error about it.

I also agree that UFO phenomena for the most part is demonic in nature and not aliens from other planets, etc....And I've seen one .

A vision can be so real, if a cat scratches you during it, your body will retain the scratches when you awake. I've heard its the same for hypnosis. A woman had the marks to prove an abduction experience happened, but she was being filmed at the time, and it didn't show she left the room at all.

However, there's a game changer coming, or may already be in effect. I deduce God restrained unclean spirits from being physical in our realm, after the flood killed their physical bodies...and that fallen angels in general, were also restrained from being physical on  earth...

But it appears this restraint will be lifted in the end time:

 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
 (2Th 2:6-8 NKJ)

 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
 (2Th 2:11-12 NKJ)


So what you saw might have been physical, and not a vision...if so that is a cause for rejoicing...it means the end is near...and the coming of our LORD Jesus Christ is also very near:

 32 "Now learn this parable from the fig tree: When its branch has already become tender and puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near.
 33 "So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near-- at the doors!
 (Mat 24:32-33 NKJ)


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« Reply #129 on: February 28, 2011, 10:29:54 AM »

Quote
Mutation is not evolution.

Sorry, but you are wrong.



Incorrect, you are and I am not sorry, I am glad.

Because there is a God, there is hope.

Oh, but lets actually define evolution here Wink

Quote
Evolution (also known as biological or organic evolution) is the change over time in the proportion of individual organisms differing in one or more inherited traits.[1] Inherited traits are particular distinguishing characteristics, including anatomical, biochemical or behavioural characteristics, that result from gene–environment interactions. Evolution may occur when there is variation of inherited traits within a population. The major sources of such variation are mutation, genetic recombination and gene flow

Sorry, but you are entirely wrong Smiley It seems to me that you don't really know what evolution means or is. Thus I hope I can help you better grasp it in a single word: "change"



Mutation is not evolution:

Mutation Fixation: A Dead End for Macro-evolution
by E. Calvin Beisner, M.A.

Most arguments against the possibility of mutation as a mechanism for evolution revolve around two premises: that mutations are almost always harmful, and that the idea of their improving rather than harming organisms is contrary to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, which tells us that matter and energy naturally tend toward greater randomness rather than greater order and complexity. These are two sides of the same coin, actually, the latter arguing from principle and the former from empirical observation.

Rarely, though, do arguments against mutation as the mechanism for evolution consider at once the many conditions that must be met if mutation is to bring about macro-evolutionary change (that is, change from one basic kind of life to another). Yet examining the probabilities of these conditions all being met together provides excellent evidence against evolution and in favor of creation.
NINE CONDITIONS FOR MUTATION FIXATION

Fortunately, geneticist R.H. Byles has made the job easy for us by discussing nine important conditions in an article on the subject.


http://www.icr.org/article/270/



This tells me you don't know what gene duplication is, or even the basic understandings of plant evolution.. Sorry but mutation = evolution.  And lastly, you don't comprehend what macro-evolution is apparently, and I can tell that you don't because you are quoting someone who apparrently also doesn't know what it is.. I tell you what, go to youtube and search for "macro-evolution" vs "micro-evolution"..



You have an agenda, hence you ignored that scholarly thesis proving the improbability of mutation being the mechanism for evolution.

Evolution does not happen, if it did, high school kids would be doing experiments demon stating the process.

NOTHING evolves...and the critically challenged can't process that...For example, so called "vestigial organs" (tonsils, tail bone) are (or were) cited as proof of evolution, when in fact becoming "less complex" proves the opposite, devolution.

The Cambrian Fossils of Chengjian, China:
http://www.amazon.com/Cambrian-Fossils-Chengjiang-China-Flowering/dp/1405106735

They are the nail in the coffin of evolution, some of these fossils even retain the shape of fleshly organs...an incredible find.

These fossils prove life exploded on the planet, not evolved.

Michael J Behe described several features of living cells that were unknown to Darwin, that are irreducibly complex. Google it.

But you don't care about that, you just pray God doesn't exist, that He won't judge you for your crimes...

He will.
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« Reply #130 on: February 28, 2011, 03:03:42 PM »

Quote
So what you saw might have been physical, and not a vision...if so that is a cause for rejoicing...it means the end is near...and the coming of our LORD Jesus Christ is also very near:
No it doesn't mean the End is near. You don't know that and neither do we.

As an aside, I still have a lot of repenting to do here on earth, so I hope the Lord in His mercy gives all of us more time.
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Alfred Persson
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« Reply #131 on: March 01, 2011, 12:31:41 AM »

Quote
So what you saw might have been physical, and not a vision...if so that is a cause for rejoicing...it means the end is near...and the coming of our LORD Jesus Christ is also very near:
No it doesn't mean the End is near. You don't know that and neither do we.

As an aside, I still have a lot of repenting to do here on earth, so I hope the Lord in His mercy gives all of us more time.

Well, we both know this for certain:

for now our salvation is nearer than when we first believed. (Rom 13:11 NKJ)

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For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)
Alfred Persson
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« Reply #132 on: March 01, 2011, 09:29:31 AM »

I just dont believe in intelligent extraterrestrial life (but non-intelligent, yes). It would require them to human souls and...yeah.

Plus the panspermia theory has many holes in it.

The one thing I am certain of, IF there is extraterrestrial intelligent life, it was created by God, and subservient to God.

Any life claiming God doesn't exist, is lying or completely deceived.

Of course the panspermia theory has holes in it...God created all things just as scripture says..

But if alleged ufo aliens land, claim the Cambrian strata's explosion of life is the work of their scientists, many will believe them...just as they now prefer evolution to the idea of God.

But its called a "falling away" by Paul in 2 Th c. 2, because religious people lose their faith in God...

That would require an earth shattering event...something truly "wondrous," and an actual "ufo landing" would certainly meet and exceed that requirement.

All over the net people are already rejecting God, in favor of ufo aliens. If ufo aliens aren't part of satan's plan to install his Antichrist and new religion...it would be strange indeed...inexplicable why he wouldn't use such an obvious deception that already fools so many.




« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 09:32:05 AM by Alfred Persson » Logged

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)
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« Reply #133 on: March 02, 2011, 03:11:30 PM »

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You have an agenda, hence you ignored that scholarly thesis proving the improbability of mutation being the mechanism for evolution.

You might actually want to google beneficial mutation Wink There are literally thousands of examples.. Reading a religious scholarly thesis on evolution is like reading a childs dick and Jane book. No offense, you really need to investigate things before making arguments such as the above. I gave you gene duplication as an example for a reason Wink And plants routinely evolve through mutation. Mutation just doesn't involve loss of information, or it can involve in replacement of information with new information. And regardless, evolution doesn't state that a beneficial change will occur lol. You have a very poor understanding what evolution is. It only states that a change will occur, and any change from it's previous state is evolution whether or not it's good or bad, or even causes the organism to go instinct.
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Alfred Persson
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« Reply #134 on: March 03, 2011, 09:41:43 AM »

Quote
You have an agenda, hence you ignored that scholarly thesis proving the improbability of mutation being the mechanism for evolution.

You might actually want to google beneficial mutation Wink There are literally thousands of examples.. Reading a religious scholarly thesis on evolution is like reading a childs dick and Jane book. No offense, you really need to investigate things before making arguments such as the above. I gave you gene duplication as an example for a reason Wink And plants routinely evolve through mutation. Mutation just doesn't involve loss of information, or it can involve in replacement of information with new information. And regardless, evolution doesn't state that a beneficial change will occur lol. You have a very poor understanding what evolution is. It only states that a change will occur, and any change from it's previous state is evolution whether or not it's good or bad, or even causes the organism to go instinct.

For argument's sake, suppose I accept those cited as real examples of beneficial mutation, the paltry number of them actually prove the case against evolution:

The Natural Direction of Life Is Degeneration, Not Evolution

Mutations in the genomes of organisms are typically nearly neutral, with little effect on the fitness of the organism. However, the accumulation of deleterious (harmful) mutations does occur and the accumulation of these mutations leads to genetic degeneration.
http://www.icr.org/mutation/

The Cambrian strata's explosion of life proves evolution is not the mechanism.

The fossils prove an intelligence did it, which is why the ufo alien lie their scientists did it, will be so believable to those who reject God.

In any unbiased critical analysis, "Evolutionists" lose the argument---the facts are overwhelmingly against them:

http://www.intelligentdesign.org/

You should argue this on another thread. I don't have the time, or the desire, to joust with you about it.

For me, this is a settled issue, the Cambrian fossils constitute an overwhelming mass of irrefutable evidence intelligent design explains the variety of life on this planet.


The growing debate now is whether God is the intelligence behind it, or ufo alien scientists...

Satan's front groups are already preaching the new paradigm:
http://www.rael.org/

Christians know God did it, the lie the entire world will accept, is ufo alien scientists did it.

Evolution is completely discredited because its probability is infinitesimal,  incalculably minute.

Its so antiquated.

Sad actually. Like watching the obstinate stand against the incoming tide, desperately hoping to survive the waves...clutching their copies of Darwin's "The Origin of the Species" with white knuckles, screaming that life is so unfair...their entire life's work, their degrees...repudiated by the facts...darn darn darn it...




« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 10:09:29 AM by Alfred Persson » Logged

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. (Rom 1:18-19 NKJ)
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« Reply #135 on: March 03, 2011, 11:05:19 AM »

I just dont believe in intelligent extraterrestrial life (but non-intelligent, yes). It would require them to human souls and...yeah.

Plus the panspermia theory has many holes in it.

I am not sure I believe in intelligent terrestrial life
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Marc1152
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« Reply #136 on: March 03, 2011, 11:12:17 AM »

Quote
You have an agenda, hence you ignored that scholarly thesis proving the improbability of mutation being the mechanism for evolution.

You might actually want to google beneficial mutation Wink There are literally thousands of examples.. Reading a religious scholarly thesis on evolution is like reading a childs dick and Jane book. No offense, you really need to investigate things before making arguments such as the above. I gave you gene duplication as an example for a reason Wink And plants routinely evolve through mutation. Mutation just doesn't involve loss of information, or it can involve in replacement of information with new information. And regardless, evolution doesn't state that a beneficial change will occur lol. You have a very poor understanding what evolution is. It only states that a change will occur, and any change from it's previous state is evolution whether or not it's good or bad, or even causes the organism to go instinct.

For argument's sake, suppose I accept those cited as real examples of beneficial mutation, the paltry number of them actually prove the case against evolution:

The Natural Direction of Life Is Degeneration, Not Evolution

Mutations in the genomes of organisms are typically nearly neutral, with little effect on the fitness of the organism. However, the accumulation of deleterious (harmful) mutations does occur and the accumulation of these mutations leads to genetic degeneration.
http://www.icr.org/mutation/

The Cambrian strata's explosion of life proves evolution is not the mechanism.

The fossils prove an intelligence did it, which is why the ufo alien lie their scientists did it, will be so believable to those who reject God.

In any unbiased critical analysis, "Evolutionists" lose the argument---the facts are overwhelmingly against them:

http://www.intelligentdesign.org/

You should argue this on another thread. I don't have the time, or the desire, to joust with you about it.

For me, this is a settled issue, the Cambrian fossils constitute an overwhelming mass of irrefutable evidence intelligent design explains the variety of life on this planet.


The growing debate now is whether God is the intelligence behind it, or ufo alien scientists...

Satan's front groups are already preaching the new paradigm:
http://www.rael.org/

Christians know God did it, the lie the entire world will accept, is ufo alien scientists did it.

Evolution is completely discredited because its probability is infinitesimal,  incalculably minute.

Its so antiquated.

Sad actually. Like watching the obstinate stand against the incoming tide, desperately hoping to survive the waves...clutching their copies of Darwin's "The Origin of the Species" with white knuckles, screaming that life is so unfair...their entire life's work, their degrees...repudiated by the facts...darn darn darn it...






In terms of degeneration look at humans (Homo Sapians). We are far less robust, sicker and are developing all kinds of new diseases than our hunter gatherer fore-fathers.. Life expectancy is longer but not by that much. People are being kept alive artificially. Visit a nursing home sometime and look at all the bed-ridden people on feeding tubes. We live longer but are much sicker in our last years. We are smaller, fatter, and have far more chronic illness than our fore-fathers. Looks like species degeneration to me too.    
« Last Edit: March 03, 2011, 11:13:34 AM by Marc1152 » Logged

Your idea has been debunked 1000 times already.. Maybe 1001 will be the charm
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